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Study Claims Human Intelligence Peaked Two To Six Millennia Ago

eldavojohn writes "Professor Gerald "Jerry" Crabtree of Stanford's Crabtree Laboratory published a paper (PDF) that has appeared in two parts in Trends in Genetics. The paper opens with a very controversial suggestion: 'I would be willing to wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000 BC were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions.' From there, Crabtree speculates we're on the decline of human intelligence and we have been for at least a couple millennia. His argument suggests agriculture and, following from that, cities, have allowed us to break free of some environmental forces on competitive genetic mutations — a la Mike Judge's theory. However, the conclusion of the paper urges humans to keep calm and carry on, as any attempt to fix this genetic trend would almost certainly be futile and disturbing."

43 of 637 comments (clear)

  1. Intel Peak by smittyoneeach · · Score: 5, Funny

    Intel peak
    And Idiocracy streak
    Comes with beard
    You hirsute freak.
    Burma Shave

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  2. no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    *looks at the robot on Mars*

    No. No it did not.

    1. Re:no by Z00L00K · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Only workaround would be to require everyone to have an IQ of 100 or above to be permitted to procreate.

      But that's not politically correct.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are right; it isn't politically expedient. However, if you look at stats (work on your Google-Fu; find them yourself), you'll see that people with an IQ lower than 100 have a lot more babies than people with higher IQ. So it is not a surprise that overall there is a downward trend. Don't forget that in the distant past, people with a very low IQ were at enough of a competitive disadvantage that they were much more likely to qualify for a Darwin Award. Today, they just get welfare (or whatever it is called in other countries) and keep having kids. They are at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to measures like "has a big house" or "makes a lot of money", but when it comes to the life pressure of procreation they are winning.

    3. Re:no by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only workaround would be to require everyone to have an IQ of 100 or above to be permitted to procreate. But that's not politically correct.

      It would also not help. Most mental deficiencies are caused by environmental factors, not heredity. Problems in childbirth and drug (especially alcohol) use are by far the most common causes of mental retardation.

      As to the untestable hypothesis that we're getting dumber, the theorist (I almost said "researcher", duh!) has missed a few clues. The main strength of our species isn't that we're all really smart, it's that one really smart guy comes along once in a while and tames fire, invents the spear, invents pottery, invents calculus, etc, and the rest of us can learn from that person.

      There's no reason to think that random chance, barring evolutionary pressures, wouldn't even things out. I read that humans almost became extinct at one time (I don't remember how long ago it was) but that is the sort of evolutionary pressure that results in huge shifts in a species' change.

      I seriously doubt that Aristotle could have comprehended calculus or designed a Mars rover.

      That said, people sure seem stupider than they were when I was young -- but that's not nearly a long enough time for evolutionary pressures. And I would posit that people are getting smarter, not dumber, because a thousand years ago there were far more things that would hinder a child's developing brain, from lead paint that they didn't know made kids stupid, to drinking mothers, who didn't know was retarding their fetus' abilities, to falling off of horses and things like that. It's far easier to protect young brains today than just fifty years ago, and things have gotten better over the centuries as we learn.

    4. Re:no by Spy+Handler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would also not help. Most mental deficiencies are caused by environmental factors, not heredity. Problems in childbirth and drug (especially alcohol) use are by far the most common causes of mental retardation.

      We are not talking about mental retardation from prenatal trauma here. We are talking about the general IQ level of those who have fully functioning non-retarded brains.

      Selective pressure in favor of a certain trait results in a population with more of that trait. This is like, really obvious stuff from chapter 1 of Evolution 101. It is a well-understood and widely accepted phenomena. How do you think humans developed higher IQ than the other primates?

    5. Re:no by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I seriously doubt that Aristotle could have comprehended calculus or designed a Mars rover.

      I seriously doubt Democritus or Archimedes would agree with you.

      The article is bunk though. First there's no proof that intellect has declined, only speculation. Then there's the silly idea that there are no selective pressures today. There are, but they are working in different areas, and death as an outcome doesn't really matter to evolution unless it is very early, all that matters is reproduction.

      As a counterpoint to his specious argument about Ancient Greece being the pinnacle of human evolution, we could look at all the foolish endeavours, demagogy, rotten politics, incessant warfare, slavery, genocide and ignorance which prevailed at the time, and feel that we have collectively come a long way.

    6. Re:no by pastafazou · · Score: 4, Funny

      yes, just like drinking alcohol has resulted in brains that are better able to function when exposed to it. In fact, the more I drink, the smarter I become!

    7. Re:no by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Funny

      I get the feeling that the scientist who did this study is single and cannot get a girlfriend. Lets try to make people panic so girls will date Nerds as their civic duties.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    8. Re:no by alexander_686 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You’re making the assumption that anaclitic ability is the primary determinate of matting success in humans. Normally, it’s not. You can find a few rare cases where it is – and the progeny of those cases tend to have higher rates of autism and aspeger – suggesting that there are tradeoffs.

      Normally, a broader range of attributes are used to determine mating potential. The ability to dance is a much better determinate. The ability to process music (mental) in a coordinated fashion (mental / physical) over a long period of time (physical) demonstrates genetic fitness that is hard to fake.

      Sigh – and I have 2 left feet.

    9. Re:no by Zordak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a counterpoint to his specious argument about Ancient Greece being the pinnacle of human evolution, we could look at all the foolish endeavours, demagogy, rotten politics, incessant warfare, slavery, genocide and ignorance which prevailed at the time, and feel that we have collectively come a long way.

      Yes, because, ALL--- no wait, MOST--- well, no, not really, SOME--- ah, screw it.

      Absolutely, because we're much better at pretending we've eradicated those things than the ancients were.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    10. Re:no by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You assume a work around is needed. Intelligence is not the only measure of a man. Live a happy, honest, hardworking life while only having an IQ of 80, and I'd say you've done better than most geniuses.

    11. Re:no by RabidReindeer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would wager that Aristotle *could* comprehend calculus given proper instruction. I mean, he was one of the premier thinkers of his time. Great minds also make mistakes, but still...

      Zeno's Paradox is about 98% of what it takes to invent differential calculus. All that remained to be added was limits.

    12. Re:no by rk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A Kalahari bushman would probably get himself killed trying to live my life for a week, and I probably wouldn't last 3 days in the Kalahari left to my own devices. What is really intelligent in one ecosystem is really stupid in another. To look at the DNA and say "this person must be smarter than the other" is complete bullshit.

    13. Re:no by LordLimecat · · Score: 4, Funny

      You know, I just had a great idea for a reality TV show.

    14. Re:no by DM9290 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You assume a work around is needed. Intelligence is not the only measure of a man. Live a happy, honest, hardworking life while only having an IQ of 80, and I'd say you've done better than most geniuses.

      You've also done better than most people with an IQ of 80.

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    15. Re:no by flyingsquid · · Score: 4, Informative

      What's really really obvious is that if you take a human and raise them in isolation or in a primitive tribe, they might have a much lower IQ than if the exact same human was raised by the finest minds and educators in the modern world.

      NPR ran a story on this on their "Planet Money" economics show. They talked about research looking at the effects of preschool education on child development, and the discoveries were really shocking. They took a group of poor children, then randomly selected half of them to recieve a top-notch, free, pre-school education, then followed both groups. The kids who got pre-school tested higher on child IQ tests, but what's more, the differences stuck with them all the way into young adulthood. There were also major differences in terms of better earning potential, lower teen pregnancy rates, higher rates of attending college, with the pre-school group doing better than the control group on all of these fronts.

      So yes, smart parents tend to raise smart kids. But a big part of that is that if your parents raised you well and taught you well, you raise your kids well and teach your kids well.

      It's worth a listen- it's one of the best shows on NPR, and this is one of their best episodes in my opinion: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/10/19/163256866/episode-411-why-preschool-can-save-the-world

    16. Re:no by Evtim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I am not so sure about all this. And my uncertainty has nothing to do with political correctness.

      First - who guarantees that the least intelligent people on this planet do not carry by accident the most important genes? What if a super-killer disease sweeps above us and a random beggar on the streets of Bangladesh has the genes to fight it? Who says intelligence is the most important quality ? Sure, from where I am standing it seems that it is, but the conditions may change...

      Second - why mistake collective intelligence for individual one. Our technological/scientific success (notice that I do no claim success on any other level, like making stable society , improving happiness and human dignity) is a result of the system we build for sharing, accumulating and storage of knowledge. It is not surprising then that the individual scientist , say , is on average less intelligent than Greek philosopher but now we have millions of scientist sharing and checking their findings via the established mechanisms.

      Third - this is not news as such. One of the more famous books on the subject by Jared Diamond already claimed that smaller "primitive" societies had to fight different set of challenges which likely make then more intelligent, whereas the civilized folks had to mostly fight with illnesses spreading quickly because we live(d) so cramped together.That is why our diseases were so devastating for them...

      Fourth - just an example I stumbled upon last week. A documentary on the BBC showed that what the might of the civilization could not achieve in the 1970 ies indigenous people achieved millennia ago - namely to successfully develop agriculture on one of the most infertile soils on the planet turning it into one of the most fertile and stable soils. You will never guess for which region I am talking about. The Amazonian rainforest. It was amazing revelation - check it out - it's called "Unnatural history - the Amazon". Estimated 5.5 million people living along the river by the time the first Europeans arrived! With cities, roads, education, craftsmanship that rivaled European quality and organized religion. Simple people they were not!

      And the most hilarious thing is that every white supremacist I have talked with claims that WE had the more difficult challenges than the "darkies" who just had to sit beneath a tree waiting for the banana to fall, therefore we are genetically more intelligent! I tend to become a tad uncivilized (pun intended) in such discussions.

  3. Well... by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Funny

    That explains the Kardashians.

    I was wondering about that.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Well... by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, and members of Congress!

  4. Flynn effect? by Janek+Kozicki · · Score: 5, Informative

    What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

    "The Flynn effect is the substantial and long-sustained increase in intelligence test scores measured in many parts of the world from roughly 1930 to the present day."

    Sure IQ is not Intelligence. But, this publication should relate somehow to this effect.

    --
    #
    #\ @ ? Colonize Mars
    #
    1. Re:Flynn effect? by tylikcat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Especially since the Flynn effect is likely not tied, or at least not exclusively tied, to genetics.

      (Though mind you, with epigenticis trundling along, the distinction is dwindling.)

    2. Re:Flynn effect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't agree with this theory necessarily, but there is a nontrivial theory that explained the Flynn effect in terms of decreased inbreeding. The idea is that inbreeding was more common in the recent past, due to decreased geographic mobility and being tied to specific regions closer to extended families, and that even mild inbreeding decreased intellectual ability on average. With increased mobility and decreased inbreeding, you'd see a fairly rapid increase in intellectual ability. Advocates of this theory sort of tied the magnitude of the Flynn effect to the magnitude of decreases in inbreeding in different locations.

      The problem with this model is that as far as I know, the Flynn effect isn't limited to the lower end of the intelligence distribution. I.e., it's not just the lower tail that's being pulled up, it's that the upper tail that's being stretched out at the same time.

      I have serious problems with the idea that increased urbanization is somehow isolating us against natural selection. This presumes that natural selection is the primary evolutionary driver of cognitive ability, which may be totally off. There is such thing as social selection (e.g., sexual selection), in which social factors drive the evolution of traits. There's a lot of convincing theory that social selection processes were more important to the evolution of human cognitive ability than natural selection.

      Also, as a really basic issue, individuals really low in cognitive ability are not reproducing at higher rates than others--the exact opposite is true. We tend to fixate on certain ranges of cognitive ability, but over the entire range, cognitive ability is positively associated with reproductive success and offspring survival, even in recent times.

  5. Thus spoke the sage on the stage... by tylikcat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Having read only the popular article so far, I confess, it sounds rather speculative.

    But more to the point, there is an assumption that intelligence is itself is a single quantifiable thing, and that the intelligence that did so well on the African savannah, or in ancient Athens would do equally well in our circumstance. (For that matter, that this "intelligence" would be the primary contributing factor to who lived or died.)

    That there are genetic differences relating to intelligence seems highly likely. That they produce more or less of a single linearly quantifiable intelligence seems rather less likely. That selection pressures have greatly changed (as everything else about our environments have greatly changed) seems something like overhwelmingly likely.

    What this means, and what conclusions can be drawn... seems speculative to the point of parlour games.

    1. Re:Thus spoke the sage on the stage... by radtea · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What this means, and what conclusions can be drawn... seems speculative to the point of parlour games.

      And yet the very facts you adduce lead one almost trivially to the same conclusion as TFA: if anything remotely resembling "intelligence" is both heritable and results in a reproductive advantage, then it is almost certain that we have the least of it of any generation in recent (evolutionary) history.

      Nor does one have to go back 6000 years. a few hundred will do, when the human population started its several-ten-fold expansion from a few hundred million to getting on for 10 billion today. That tells us the selective pressure of all kinds have been essentially zero in the past ten-ish generations.

      Since we have posited that something vaguely resembling "intelligence" was selected for, and has not been selected for in the past 10+ generations, we can be certain that a lot of dumb people survived to breed who would not have done so previously (me, for example, if we include various kinds of social sagacity in the multi-factor definition of "intelligence").

      I've pointed this out in the past on /.: if you grant those two assumptions--even slightly heritable intelligence and an even slight selective advantage for the more intelligent--the complete absence of selection in the past several hundred years necessarily implies we ain't too bright, on average, compared to our historical ancestors.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  6. Civilization removes natural selection. by concealment · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As soon we form fixed civilizations, natural selection is no longer in effect.

    For a few millennia, perhaps, we get by with early social selection, which shows people selecting mates for admire for bravery, intelligence, wisdom and strength. This puts the wealthiest, smartest, most healthy and most attractive into the same elite breeding pool.

    After that, society gets faddish. Think of Rome in its final days. People no longer pick the best, but the most popular. That means people who are good salespeople, drama queens, hip cats, etc.

    Thus begins the long slow path to Idiocracy.

  7. yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    *looks at this comment*

    Yes. Yes it did.

  8. Re:Actually by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's a difference between IQ and education.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  9. Uhhh, that doesn't really make sense by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Informative

    Agriculture and cities tend to mean individuals do not need to be able to fend for themselves as much, but it does mean they need to be able to work together and look towards the future more. Farmers need to plant crops at the right times every year, need to save seeds, plant enough to survive through winter and trade some away for other stuff, city builders need to organize the whole city for future growth, etc. That means evolution will naturally tend to emphasize long-term planning and intelligence rather than the brute strength which was almost required to survive at all before the invention of cities and agriculture. If anything, modern life emphasizes intelligence more than it did millenia and centuries ago, when strength and survival skills would have been required and emphasized. Our intelligence is, in fact, the very reason we aren't as strong or physical capable as our primate ancestors were. In fact, if it weren't for our ability to live in society, our intelligence would be nearly worthless. The whole reason our intelligence gives us an advantage is that we are able to use tools and organization in order to overcome obstacles that would be otherwise physically beyond us.

    A hunter-gatherer who did not correctly conceive a solution to providing food or shelter probably died, along with his or her progeny, whereas a modern Wall Street executive that made a similar conceptual mistake would receive a substantial bonus and be a more attractive mate

    Yeah, a Wall Street executive who is homeless and hungry is sure going to attract lots of mates. (/sarcasm) Simply because our decisions now are different from what they were 3000 years ago, does not mean the intelligence required is any less so. Or any more, for that matter.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  10. Ever since the Ancient times... by InvisibleClergy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...people have been thinking that the past was the "golden era", and that the people of the past were so much better.

  11. For various definitions of "citizen" by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    âoeI would wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000BC were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas and a clear-sighted view of important issues,â Professor Crabtree says in a provocative paper published in the journal Trends in Genetics.

    The average Athenian lived a life of drudgery and was illiterate.

    Citizenship was hereditary (or very rarely granted by democratic vote) which made the "average citizen" a much different class of person than the average Athenian.
    It's like saying that if the average Harvard student were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:For various definitions of "citizen" by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...The average Athenian lived a life of drudgery and was illiterate...

      Those illiterate drudges didn't leave any writings behind.

      This guy seems to have studied the people who did write, and the people they wrote about, and came to the astonishing conclusion that the interesting people 2000 years ago were very bright and intellectual. Bah.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  12. False perceptions, perhaps? by wcrowe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am not sure I can buy in to his hypothesis. Our perceptions could be skewed because most of what we know about the ancients was left behind by the more intelligent and intellectual members of those societies. I don't think humans are less intelligent today than they were in the past. It only seems that way because we have YouTube.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
  13. Re:Actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is a "no shit?" comment.

    The point was if you transplant a guy from 1000BC as a child, and raise him today, he would be smarter than people today.

  14. Terrible, wretched, no good science by Raindance · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Greg Cochran over at West Hunter has a pretty damning critique of this paper.

    Cochran's review:
    In two recent papers, Gerald Crabtree says two correct things. He says that the brain is complex, depends on the correct functioning of many genes, and is thus particularly vulnerable to genetic load. Although he doesn’t use the phrase “genetic load”, probably because he’s never heard it. He goes on to say that that this is not his area of expertise: truer words were never spoken!

    His general argument is that selection for intelligence relaxed with the development of agriculture, and that brain function, easier to mess up than anything else, has probably been deteriorating for thousands of years. We are dumber than out ancestors, who were dumber than theirs, etc.

    The first bit, about the relaxation of selection for intelligence in the Neolithic -. Sure. As we all know, just as soon as people domesticated emmer wheat, social workers fanned out, kept people from cheating or killing their neighbors, and made sure that fuckups wouldn’t starve to death. Riiight -it’s all in the Epic of Gilgamesh. In the online supplement.

    Why do people project a caricature of modernity back thousands of years before it came into existence? Man, he doesn’t know much about history.

    Nor does he know much about biology. If he did, he’d understand that truncation selection is what makes such complex adaptations possible. If only the top 85% (in terms of genetic load) reproduce, the average loser has something like 1 std more load , so each one takes lots of deleterious mutations with him. But then, he’s probably never heard of truncation selection. I’m sure they never taught him that in school, but that’s no excuse – they never taught me, either.

    If his thesis was correct, you’d expect hunter-gatherers to be smarter than people from more sophisticated civilizations, which is the crap that Jared Diamond peddles about PNG. But Crabtree says that everyone’s the same – stepping on the dick of his own argument. Of course, in reality, hunter-gatherers score low, often abysmally low, and have terrible trouble trying to fit in to more complex civilizations. They do a perfect imitation of being not-smart, amply documented in the psychometric literature. Of course, he doesn’t know anything about those psychometric results.

    Which reminds me of secret clearances: it used to be that having a clearance mean that you were entrusted with information that most people didn’t have. Now, it means that you can’t read Wikileaks, even though everyone else does. In much the same way, you may have the silly impression that having a Ph.D. means knowing more than regular people – but in the human sciences, the most important prerequisite is not knowing certain facts. Some kind soul should post the Index, so newbies won’t get themselves in trouble.

    He doesn’t even know things that would almost support his case. Average brain size has indeed decreased over the Neolithic- but in every population, not just in farmers. He might talk about paternal age effects, and how average paternal age varies – but he doesn’t know anything about it. He ought to be thinking about the big population increase associated with agriculture, and the ensuing Fisherian acceleration – but he’s never heard of it.

    He even gets the peripheral issues wrong. He talks about language as new, 50,000 years old or so – much more recent than the split between Bushmen/Pygmies and the rest of the human race. Yet they talk. He says that the X chromosome isn’t enriched for cognition and behavioral genes – but it is (by at least a factor of two) , and the reference he quotes confirms it.

    Selection pressures and mutation rates can vary in space and time. Intelligence could decrease – it

  15. Re:What about attractiveness? by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's kind of a loaded comparison right there. Just by using the term "Greek citizen" you are likely excluding all of the riffraff that would bring the numbers down. So this is a sampling problem more than anything else.

    The modern definition of "citizen" is much more inclusive.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  16. Re:Actually by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And there is no objective way to test this. Let's remember here that the output of Classical Greek learning and thought was done by a relatively small number of people compared to the number of people living in Ancient Greece. Trying to determine how smart (by whatever metric you use) the average Greek was based upon how intelligent Socrates or Eratosthenes were is about as useful as trying to determine how smart the average Renaissance Italian was by looking at Leonardo da Vinci and Galileo Galilei, or the average Enlightenment Briton by John Locke or Isaac Newton.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  17. This may be the answer to Fermi paradox. by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Civilization rises to the point where television is invented. Then it collapses.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  18. Re:Actually by David+Chappell · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well, no, he'd sound like somebody who spoke Ancient Greek, which I have not even the slightest passing familiarity with.

    I'd almost be tempted to call him a barbarian.

    Oddly enough, the original meaning of barbarian was "someone who does not speak Greek". So, he would be very puzzled.

  19. "Aristotle could have comprehended calculus"? by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know, but Archimedes came awfully damned close to inventing it, despite his culture's lack of essential background concepts.

    1. Re:"Aristotle could have comprehended calculus"? by knarf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Look at that Archimedes palimpsest. There we have a book made of parchment, in which Archimedes philosophised himself towards calculus. Scraped out at a later stage and reused... to write a prayer book. From the conquest of knowledge to the submission of free thought, on one piece of parchment.

      It puts in mind that lizard, sitting in the sun on top of the remains of a launch platform built by a civilisation now long gone, thinking (or at least doing the lizard-equivalent of it) 'what a nice basking spot someone made me here'.

      --
      --frank[at]unternet.org
  20. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  21. Re: zeNo by neoshroom · · Score: 4, Funny

    Zeno's Paradox is about 98% of what it takes to invent differential calculus.

    Sure, but the problem is that last 2% can never be reached, because there are an infinite amount of half-ways in the way.

    --
    Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.