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Dirigible Airship Prototype Approaches Completion

cylonlover writes "The dirigible airship, the oddball aircraft of another era, is making a comeback. California-based Aeros Corporation has created a prototype of its new breed of variable buoyancy aircraft and expects the vehicle to be finished before the end of 2012. With its new cargo handling technology, minimum fuel consumption, vertical take-off and landing features and point to point delivery, the Aeroscraft platform promises to revolutionize airship technology. The Aeroscraft ship uses a suite of new mechanical and aerospace technologies. It operates off a buoyancy management system which controls and adjusts the buoyancy of the vehicle, making it light or heavy for any stages of ground and flight operation. Automatic flight control systems give it equilibrium in all flight modes and allow it to adjust helium pressurized envelopes depending on the buoyancy requirements. It just needs one pilot and has an internal ballast control system, which allows it to offload cargo, without using ballast. Built with a rigid structure, the Aeroscraft can control lift at all stages with its Vertical Takeoff and Landing (VTOL) capabilities and carry maximum payload while in hover. What makes it different from other cargo vehicles is that it does not need a runway or ground infrastructure."

175 of 231 comments (clear)

  1. Re:First post! by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 3, Funny

    And it's going downmodded...Oh the humanity!

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  2. Every decade event by esldude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seems this comes up every decade or so. There are some advantages in niches. But in the end, the large volume craft, at relatively slow speeds, and relatively less useful when winds are up seem to doom it from becoming a highly useful aircraft.

    1. Re:Every decade event by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You have to wonder though if it will ever become more practical than traditional cargo ships. I imagine it would take less energy to stay airborne (given that it relies upon buoyancy rather than thrust) therefore making it more energy efficient than a jumbo jet, and might need less energy to stay in motion than a watercraft given the lower resistance of the air vs water.

      Sure, you might need more of them, but pound for pound can it cost less to transport the goods than a cargo ship? I imagine if they added solar power, that would wipe out much of the operating cost. (Plus I've heard something like current cargo ships have a much larger carbon footprint than most of the world's cars combined.)

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    2. Re:Every decade event by antifoidulus · · Score: 2

      Well for starters it can drastically simplify logistical supply chains.... Right now if you want to ship something you either have to do air(insanely expensive) or some combination of ship, rail, and road(usually on both ends, i.e. factory -> rail -> road ->sea -> rail->road->destination) The airship is able to take advantage of existing air fields, so theoretically you could just go factory -> airship -> destination(obviously with a tiny bit of road to get it from the airport to the destination, same as shipping by plane). Obviously with JIT manufacturing being all the rage, the ability to stick to schedules will be imperative, but it isn't like road/train/ship delays are exactly unheard of either.

    3. Re:Every decade event by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      1) You need thrust if you want to go anywhere.
      2) The higher resistance of water makes propellers more efficient. It's the reason prop planes have a maximum ceiling.
      3) Not sure how efficient these would be for cargo transport, however they are extremely efficient at sending hundreds of tourists plunging to a spectacular death.

    4. Re:Every decade event by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Short answer: no, airships will always be less efficient than water ships.

      The volume of air that must be displaced vs. volume of water is so much greater than any airship yard you find would be the size of Arkansas. Those steampunk airships you see? They would have to have buoyancy chambers orders of magnitude larger than depicted to float.

      As a matter of fact, the vast majority of the fluid resistance encountered by container ships is the containers themselves on top, since the hull can be made very low-resistance, but boxes cannot. Their fuel efficiency issues stem exclusively for extremely weak regulations on emissions.

      So no, airships will always be tourist attractions. No one wants to pay more money to transport things less quickly.

    5. Re:Every decade event by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Amtrak is a different business than freight rail, which....is doing quite fine.

      They just had their biggest June ever.

      http://transportationnation.org/2012/07/06/u-s-freight-rail-has-biggest-june-ever/

      Keep lying though, nobody will care what frauds you spew as long as you bash unions.

    6. Re:Every decade event by afidel · · Score: 5, Interesting

      25% of all ton-miles, and 42% of all inter-city freight are carried via rail in the US. The percentage of all freight carried by rail has been increasing with the cost of oil because of the significantly higher efficiency. In fact today the US carries about the same percentage of cargo via rail that the EU does.

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    7. Re:Every decade event by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Some events during the circumnavigation of the world by the Graf Zeppelin showed that you really have to be lucky with the weather with something so huge that moves so slowly. The early aviator Wilkes was a passenger and wrote a few things about that that have been reprinted in a few places, but it can be summed up as a hair raising trip dodging bad weather.
      Then again, while that one couldn't get above bad weather maybe something more recent may be able to. While high strength aluminium alloys today are virtually identical to the ones used back then maybe something with titanium or aerogels could get up a bit higher even on helium, plus I'm sure the gas bags today are much lighter than the ones from back then.

    8. Re:Every decade event by afidel · · Score: 5, Informative

      My dads company ships tankers and half-tankers of industrial chemicals all the time, they also ship lots of those same chemicals via truck, but if it's going inter-city and the recipient is buying at least a half-tanker it's always cheaper to do it via rail. Also look at automobiles, 70% of autos are shipped via rail, those can obviously be shipped via truck, and they're not exactly low-margin or low-value items, so why do you think that is? Perhaps rail doesn't work for your industry, but there are obviously plenty of industries where it does work.

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    9. Re:Every decade event by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Prop plane max ceiling is due to losing lift for the wings and oxygen for the engines at high altitudes, same as jet planes. Jets being faster, and lift being proportional to the square of the speed, jets can go higher, but it's got nothing to do with resistance of props.

      Prop planes have a lot more trouble breaking the sound barrier. I know sometimes prop tips go supersonic, but they lose efficiency, and I don't think any prop plane has ever gone supersonic, even in a dive out of control.

    10. Re:Every decade event by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Think of them as more efficient higher capacity longer range helicopters.

    11. Re:Every decade event by Vintermann · · Score: 2

      Cargo ships are extremely efficient at what they do. They may have a large carbon footprint, but they have a very low carbon footprint per kg of goods transported compared to your car.

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    12. Re:Every decade event by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Regular cargo ships are pretty vulnerable to rough weather too.

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    13. Re:Every decade event by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      They may have a large carbon footprint, but they have a very low carbon footprint per kg of goods transported compared to your car.

      Whether that's true or not, the biggest problem with cargo ships is that they are extremely polluting. They run on a lower grade of diesel than do other things and have no emission controls.

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    14. Re:Every decade event by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      There could be easy environmental savings by making them run on cleaner fuel, possibly. But there are no easy savings by switching to other transport methods, because there's nothing that can remotely compete.

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    15. Re:Every decade event by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Orders of magnitude better than a balloon.

    16. Re:Every decade event by StoneyMahoney · · Score: 2

      The raw CO2 figures look pretty big on paper, but are meaningless without comparing the CO2 emissions of the various modes of transport in terms of something like tonne/kilometer. Check out the second table here:

      https://people.exeter.ac.uk/TWDavies/energy_conversion/Calculation%20of%20CO2%20emissions%20from%20fuels.htm

      (NB: seems to be an error in the second table header. Given the actual data units, I think it should say "KG CO2 per KM")

      The results here are fairly varied in the final units they come out with, mainly because the different forms of transport considered are so different, but the eye-browing raising figure is that short haul passenger flights emit the same amount of carbon per person per kilometer as moving 18 tonnes of cargo by ship the same distance!

    17. Re:Every decade event by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      This isn't a traditional airship though, while they avoid explicitly saying it, its a heavier than air model, which means the volume needed is a lot less.

      http://www.aeroscraft.com/#/aeroscraft/4567337667

      I can see there being a growing market for these things, as they circumvent the need for docks of just about any description. Moving cargo past the coastline and faster than a cargo ship, as well as not being bound to shipping lanes, has to have a fairly sizeable niche.

    18. Re:Every decade event by Hentes · · Score: 1

      I think the big use would be commercial transport. Ships are slow too but are used for transport because they are so cheap. If airships can be made cheap enough, they could replace trucks.

    19. Re:Every decade event by mozumder · · Score: 1

      1) You need thrust if you want to go anywhere.

      Use wind? Hot air balloons use wind, with different directions at different altitudes.

      Or have like sails on a sailboat, except on an airship?

      Winds are 200mph up high.

    20. Re:Every decade event by Wizzu · · Score: 2

      If you want to go in any other direction than where the wind is going, you need a keel to go with the sails. So sails is not really a solution here, because there's no way to have a working keel.

    21. Re:Every decade event by nospam007 · · Score: 2

      "Seems this comes up every decade or so."

      Indeed. Wake me up when one of them is attached to the top of the Empire State Building.

      At least then it will freak out Fringe watchers, who will believe they are in an alternate universe.

    22. Re:Every decade event by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      And minds where blown

      http://www.translationdirectory.com/images_articles/wikipedia/railroads/A_train_of_intermodal_trailers_on_flat_cars.jpg

      I'd do a "yo dawg" but I'm still working on my coffee and my brain isn't working yet

    23. Re:Every decade event by Quila · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking high-altitude ski lift poles. Right now they use heavy cargo helicopters that are rather expensive to run.

    24. Re:Every decade event by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      I took aerospace science in high school, and I don't remember much if any of it, but I seem to recall something about after a propeller driven plane goes so fast that the shockwave left behind each propeller damages the trailing one. Jet turbines don't have this problem because the down force of the blades is at a much sharper angle, or at least they won't experience any problems unless they reach speeds much higher than the fuselage is capable of withstanding.

      Or something like that. I've done chemistry, biology, IT, and some law, but I've never actually studied physics.

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    25. Re:Every decade event by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Each propeller blade damages the trailing blade rather (ok that sounded stupid.)

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    26. Re:Every decade event by MancunianMaskMan · · Score: 1

      They claim to have technology to go from heavier than air to lighter than air and back, to my mind that involves having some kind of compressor on board that can suck Helium out ouf a buoyancy bag and into a pressurized gas bottle. This is an obvious solution, the Zeppelin engineers of old would have done it but there was no way they could make it light enough. They must have some sort of advanced materials or composites that make this possible (if they're not lying fraudsters like other companies that have cashed in on selling shares then not delivering, Cargolifter anyone?). The absence of any detail on this on their website is suspicious. Where's the "How does it work" tab?

    27. Re:Every decade event by PPalmgren · · Score: 2

      afidel is correct, rail is the preferred method of inland delivery for international cargo arrive at container terminals. This includes containerized, truckable cargo. Because we have modular container trains now that are easy to set up and roll, plus the increasing prevalence of on-dock rail lines at shipping terminals, the expense has come down due to less labor and the ability to load it directly to rail from ship without trucking it to a rail depot.

    28. Re:Every decade event by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      On some routes, the dirigibles will definitely be better than the traditional boats. Such as the Chicago - Denver route, or almost all of the Moscow - Anywhere routes.

      One factor not mentioned in TFA was whether these dirigibles will be all weather aircraft, or will be blue sky only aircraft. That will have an impact on their ability to compete with truck and rail freight.

      --
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    29. Re:Every decade event by halltk1983 · · Score: 1

      Nuclear power, like the Navy. Small thorium reactors for everyone!

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    30. Re:Every decade event by halltk1983 · · Score: 1

      The fact that so many people choose to use it, however, is indicative that it's a cost effective solution.

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    31. Re:Every decade event by halltk1983 · · Score: 1

      Shipping one truck worth, it's probably cheaper to go truck. But there's this thing called "bulk rates". Usually businesses are willing to work with other businesses on "bulk rates", especially for a long term commitment.

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    32. Re:Every decade event by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      Parent post is correct only if you look no further than the shipping lanes that are currently in existence.

      I am pretty sure that these new airships will be more cost effective than any boats on the San Francisco to Denver route.

      I think on that route they will be also more cost effective than trucks, but perhaps not as cheap as the railroad, in general. But for point to point transport, such as new cars off the dock in San Fran to dealerships in Denver, Kansas City, and St Louis, the airships will probably be competitive even with rail.

      And there are certainly some interesting niche applications. One that I expect to see fairly early in the game will be transport of windmills from factory to installation site, with possibly the airship in hover mode used as a crane during installation. One of the limitations on today's wind generators is that the blades need to be transported by truck over existing roads. That limits the length of the blades.

      --
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    33. Re:Every decade event by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      Cargo ships require water. That is not always available in sufficient quantity on trade routes. You can count the number of Chinese junks that plied the Silk Road on less than one hand.

      Compare the airship with other means of overland transport, please. Relevant questions: is it cheaper than trucking? Probably most of the time. Is it cheaper than railroads? Probably not, along those routes where railroads already exist. Almost certainly better than putting in a new railroad, though.

      --
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    34. Re:Every decade event by freedumb2000 · · Score: 1

      And this is what became of said hangar: http://www.tropical-islands.de/

    35. Re:Every decade event by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I think they need to compete with trains, not ships.

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    36. Re:Every decade event by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Not sure how efficient these would be for cargo transport, however they are extremely efficient at sending hundreds of tourists plunging to a spectacular death.

      You're almost saying that like it's a bad thing.

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    37. Re:Every decade event by weiserfireman · · Score: 1

      One advantage this would have is modern weather forecasting. The Graf Zeppelin did not have enough warning of bad weather ahead, and therefore couldn't reroute in time to avoid it.

    38. Re:Every decade event by weiserfireman · · Score: 1

      Similar to my idea,

      Wildland Firefighting has a lot of need to get equipment into remote areas, with poor or non-existent roads. Be pretty nice to be able to drop all the vehicles and equipment necessary for a Type 1 Incident Command Team in one flight into a remote area, instead of multiple truck loads.

    39. Re:Every decade event by undeadbill · · Score: 1

      *CARRIER HAS ARRIVED*

      From the article, it appears that their niche market may be in working with the US Army to turn it into a drone carrier, a la StarCraft Protoss Carriers. Now all we need is shield tech, and a floating railgun platform... and the Zerg will be doomed.

    40. Re:Every decade event by fnj · · Score: 1

      1) You need thrust if you want to go anywhere.

      Obviously. So?

      2) The higher resistance of water makes propellers more efficient. It's the reason prop planes have a maximum ceiling.

      Complete and utter bullshit. Water and air propellers have very similar efficiency (useful propulsive power output divided by power input). Ceiling has nothing to do with propeller efficiency and everything to do with air density vs altitude.

      3) Not sure how efficient these would be for cargo transport, however they are extremely efficient at sending hundreds of tourists plunging to a spectacular death.

      Completely clueless bullshit. Never happened. The Hindenburg killed a grand total of ... wait for it ... 13 (thirteen) passengers. No other large airship ever killed a single fare paying passenger.

      Better stick to your day job.

    41. Re:Every decade event by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      You have to wonder though if it will ever become more practical than traditional cargo ships.

      The two are used (or will be used) for completely different things. You use a cargo ship like the Emma Maersk when you have 150,000 tons of cargo that you need to move from one shipping port to another (using up to 3,600 gallons of heavy fuel oil per hour, or "only" 1,660 gallons per hour in economy mode). After that, it's on to rail lines or trucks (using more fuel). But the point is that a cargo ship can carry vast amounts of cargo from port to port. Starting in 2014 there will be ships capable of moving 250,000 tons.

      The Aeroscraft can only move 66 tons at a time. So it's obviously not a drop-in replacement for a cargo ship. But the major advantage to using the airship is its point-to-point capability. It could theoretically fly directly to the factory producing the equipment, pick up the cargo there with no ground infrastructure needed, and deliver it directly to where it's going to be used. Depending on the final destination (Nebraska, middle of China, etc), it's probably going to be a lot faster than loading your cargo onto a train, shipping it to a port, loading it onto a ship, shipping to the next port, loading it back onto a train or truck, and heading to the destination. You only need to load and unload once with the airship. It probably also uses vastly less fuel than a combined ship/train/truck route.

      So the limitation is that it can only carry 66 tons, but the advantage is that it can pick up and deliver anywhere in the world, literally. Fuel efficiency per ton of cargo would be a calculation that depends on where you're going and how many modes of ground transportation you need.

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    42. Re:Every decade event by brianerst · · Score: 1

      That is changing rapidly. Cargo ships in North American waters are now required to burn low-sulfur diesel instead of bunker fuel. And there are several different attempts to harness wind power to lower fuel consumption. The link above wouldn't work on big container vessels but could be used in conjunction with biodiesel to drop net carbon emissions to near zero.

      There was the Beluga Skysail for container ships that demonstrated a 20% reduction in fuel usage but they appear to have gone out of business.

    43. Re:Every decade event by RoccamOccam · · Score: 1

      I'd like to take this moment to patent the "jet-stream keel". Just put your sail up into one layer of the jet-stream, your keel down into another, and tack!

    44. Re:Every decade event by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Well, hello, Mr. Walton, meet Jim Hightower. He'll tell you where your twinkies went.

    45. Re:Every decade event by dywolf · · Score: 1

      cargo ships? doubtful
      trains? possibly. depends on the source/destination combo and on the trucks. if its connected by train, then no. if its not, or not directly, then possibly (such as the seattle to sante fe, which first has to go all the way to LA or chocago first, or even Denver to Sante Fe which goes by truck usually cause the trains have to against cros the mtns and double back).
      trucks? maybe. trucks already fill in the gaps from the ships and trains, and theres a lot of trucks. but they are still limited by routing.

      that's for the US though, and we're farly well conencted except for the couple routes mentioned or similar. in other places, the same rules would apply, but if they lack many roads or trains, its easy to see how an airship route could run delivers without needing the road/tracks inbetween.

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    46. Re:Every decade event by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the tips going supersonic is due to rotational speed though, not actual aircraft speed. and that's only a few that actually did that. (the Pogo was one)

      the wing design problem is common to all planes (re: Tu-195 Bear, russian prop driver bomber with swept wings and high altitude ability). there's been air breathing engines ~80-90k ft. prop driven engines simply use a turbocharger, essentially the compressor section of a jet engine (before there were jets!), to get enough air at higher altitudes.

      the real problem prop planes have with going SS is its very hard for a propellor to generate the required thrust. the redesign of a prop to do so is what results in the many bladed turbines of a jet engine. a prop is essentially an unconfined turbine with few blades. confining it results in the ducted prop or ducted fan. still not enough thrust though, so add a reactive component to create more thrust...and you just conceptualized the jet engine itself.

      going fast is more about the airframe design. you could design a propellor driven plane that exceeds Mach 1 in a dive fairly easy. the trick is getting it to do it in level flight under its own power. thats why you need the jets.

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    47. Re:Every decade event by Sentrion · · Score: 1

      Shipping by ship, truck, train, or plane makes more sense than transporting freight by helicopter. Yet there are helicopters performing all sorts of freight moving operations. The key word is "niche application". I would imagine that an airship could fill in the void where an imaginary supersized but affordable and fuel efficient helicopter would be desired. A good example might be the logging industry. Logs could be selectively cut by crews lowered to the ground and lifted out of place much faster and without the environmental havoc of building logging roads through virgin forests.

    48. Re:Every decade event by efalk · · Score: 3, Informative

      OK, speaking of one who's actually taken dirigible flying lessons, I have a couple of points to make:

      Other posters are right: propellers are just little airfoils.

      The ceiling of a prop plane is a combination of three factors: thin air limiting the lift of the wings, thin air limiting the thrust of the prop, and lack of oxygen to the engine. Superchargers can help with the oxygen problem, and longer wings and/or higher airspeed will help with the lift problem, but there's not much you can do about the prop.

      Airships have altitude limitations too, even worse than airplanes. Every airship contains air bladders called "ballonets" which displace some of the lifting gas. As the airship gains altitude, the ballonets are deflated to make room for the expanding lift gas. Once the ballonets are completely empty, the airship is at its maximum altitude, beyond which it can't rise without venting and losing lift gas.

      Airships are *not* "extremely efficient at sending hundreds of tourists plunging to a spectacular death". The Hindenburg caught fire a hundred feet in the air, and most people on board still walked away. You can't say that about most aircraft. We think of airships as dangerous because the Hindenburg disaster happened in the relatively early days of aviation, and the disaster was broadcast live, searing it into the collective consciousness.

      The Hindenburg itself was a very safe design. The disaster happened because they screwed up and used highly flammable paint on the skin. If they hadn't done that, things would be very different today.

      All that said, there are a number of factors that will keep airships from ever coming back.

      First, the cost of Helium is going through the roof. This is essentially what killed Airship Ventures. You could make a reasonably safe airship using hydrogen, but nobody would be willing to fly it. This might work for cargo transport, but not for passengers.

      Second, they're slow. Third, they don't operate in high winds.

      Flying one was one of the most seriously awesome fun things I have ever done, but I have no illusions that they'll ever be a practical means of transportation again.

    49. Re:Every decade event by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      By your standards planes are far more efficient at sending hundreds of tourists to their deaths.

      Well, they are by any standards. If the parent poster was referring to the Hindenberg, the famous prang only killed 35 of the 97 people on board. If a 747 hits anything while it's in the air, it's pretty much goodnight nurse if you happen to be on the plane.

    50. Re:Every decade event by markxz · · Score: 1

      If a 747 hits anything while it's in the air, it's pretty much goodnight nurse if you happen to be on the plane.

      It does not need to be in the air

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

    51. Re:Every decade event by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Even with modern engines the things are not going to be able to move very quickly and for large portions of the world's surface there isn't anywhere they can run to. However, as a pilot was telling me last night, thunderheads may go very high but they do not occupy a lot of space at very high altitude, so there are ways around them in some aircraft. A modern dirigible may be able to get above a lot of bad weather, with the exception of enormous things like hurricanes that they should be able to outrun.
      Heat based turbulence in tropical areas that throws planes around all over the place in clear air below the clouds is probably a different story since all that gusty air is going to be hitting a huge surface area and pushing bits of it in different directions. However the huge Graf Zeppelin flew to Brazil many times, so maybe that's not as big a deal as it seems.
      The bottom line is these things are a lot more fragile than fixed wing aircraft and a lot slower so it's not as trivial as just leaving in good weather. However they could possibly be designed to fly at heights current airliners cannot reach, but since they are such large soft things don't expect much more than the 60 knots the Zeppelins cruised at in still air. With fast high altitude winds they would of course go a lot faster than that downwind.

    52. Re:Every decade event by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      Wind farms are best sited where the wind is frequently steady in direction and intensity. These airships will have sufficient inertia that minor deviations in the wind are not going to affect them. We already have the technology to keep floating drilling platforms positioned precisely above well heads thousands of feet below the surface of an ocean; that technology would also work to keep an airship at station above a windmill site.

      --
      Will
    53. Re:Every decade event by surd1618 · · Score: 1

      I figured out once that if it only pulls 20mph it will beat a cargo freighter by about a third, getting stuff from China to the US in 2 weeks instead of 3. And 20 is pretty conservative, allowing for rotten weather, even alternate routing. The Hindenburg maxed out at 50. But perhaps best of all, ports could be anywhere.

  3. For some reason... by camperdave · · Score: 1

    For some reason, it reminds me of something

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  4. Funny idea... He He He... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Given all the articles I've read about helium shortages et al., I'm not sure I'd invest in a company that claims He based dirigibles are about to make a comeback.

    1. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by ipquickly · · Score: 1

      There is always hydrogen. Sure it has a bad rap, but can't we make hydrogen more safer?
      Automatic pressure release. Static control materials, etc.

      I don't see why hydrogen - although it is very dangerous - has been abandoned as an alternative.

    2. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by meglon · · Score: 2

      Because we can't make hydrogen more safe. The explanation for why it was abandoned is pretty simple: Hindenburg. Admittedly there were a variety of other mishaps, and the Hindenburg wasn't even the worst, but it was the one that the news media had the best coverage of.

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    3. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by Zorpheus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The Hindenburg disaster was spectacular, but was it really that bad? Nearly 2/3 of the people on board survived.
      And I am wondering how much more safe this could be built. The Hindenburg consisted of hydrogen-filled cells which were located within the air-filled hull. Seems rather stupid to me to build it this way, since only the confined air allowed hydrogen and air to mix without ascending away from the airship. The other thing was that the hull was burning very well since it was soaked in linoleum oil. In a TV report it was actually claimed that the fire we see is only the burning hull, since a hydrogen flame is invisible.
      Where is the danger if hydrogen coming out of a leak would just ascend and get diluted quickly in the air? The pure hydrogen in the cells can not burn.

    4. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by afidel · · Score: 1

      If Helium had any economic value we'd be capturing literally tons of the stuff right now, all sorts of natural gas production is going on and I'd assume some non-trivial percentage of those wells contain a decent percentage He, but even though natural gas is at an alltime low due to a massive supply glut nobody is bothering to capture what should be a value biproduct because the government has been selling the stuff at a below-cost-to-produce pricepoint for decades. Sell off the reserves or start selling it at cost higher than the replacement costs and you'll see more production.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by spacecowboy420 · · Score: 1

      It was the coating on the ship, not the he that made it a disaster.

      --
      ymmv
    6. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The Mythbusters did an episode on the Hindenburg. Indeed because what you see burn is the outer hull. Hydrogen burns, burns fast, and is gone fast. It doesn't explode unless mixed with air - the Hindenburg didn't explode, it just burned really fast.

      Well long story short: the Mythbusters found out that the hull of the Hindenburg (just like the other Zeppelins at the time) was coated in something that closely resembled thermite, making it highly flammable. The hull on its own burned well, but the combination with hydrogen is what made it go really fast.

      Now sure there is a lot to say about their methods, and the rather shallow research, but the conclusion is quite clear: it was not just the hydrogen, it was not just the coating, it was the combination of the two. Somehow the hydrogen acts as catalyst boosting the burning of the outer hull. Only when they burned a coated hull filled with hydrogen they got a burn that resembled the Hindenburg disaster.

      Hydrogen will always be a fire risk, but it can be lessened by making the hull non-flammable. Something that we can do, but the Germans at the time not, or at least not as easily. Whether we can make it safe enough for modern standards, that is another matter.

    7. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      That's what happens when you burn hydrogen.

      Or of it's raining...

      But in fact the water produced by burning hydrogen wouldn't condense so fast. Most of the water you see in the film of the disaster was from their ballast.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    8. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      There is always hydrogen. Sure it has a bad rap, but can't we make hydrogen more safer?

      Oh I know, mix it with nitogen!

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    9. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      We just need to get fusion to work on such a scale that we convert enough hydrogen to helium to make it work.

      Can't find how much energy we would need to produce to make enough helium to make a significant contribution, nor how hot this planet would become (each TWh produced must be radiated away). It may be so much energy that we'd be swimming in molten rock to get a decent amount of helium.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    10. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      The root cause of the Hindenburg disaster seems to have been a loss of structural integrity when the aircraft made a sudden turn before landing. The turn ruptured a gas bag and released hydrogen into the atmosphere, Other airship designs are vulnerable to this as well. But I have an idea: lets fill it with vacuum.

    11. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      Good idea. Now we just need to figure out how to be able to build it light enough to fly while being strong enough not to get crushed by the air pressure.

    12. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Good idea. Now we just need to figure out how to be able to build it light enough to fly while being strong enough not to get crushed by the air pressure.

      Simple: build them in stratosphere, where the air pressure is already lower.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    13. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      And at the same time their lift would also be lower - needing an even lighter construction.
      And what use would giant balloons be, if they were unable to ever land or even reduce their altitude?

    14. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by Detritusher · · Score: 1

      This country still has a strategic helium reserve because of the rarity and value of helium, and while it is true that this program is slowly being phased out and sold to private industry, there is growing concern in the scientific community about the uncontrolled release of helium from the use of party balloons and such. So much so that almost any university with a decent science program has a system in place to capture and re-liquefy helium used in experiments. Helium is more or less a non renewable resource because once released into the atmosphere it never come back down to earth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZkMQkHGj1s

    15. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by frostfreek · · Score: 1

      Long ropes made out of carbon nanotubes or something?

    16. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      We can't make airplanes more safe. The explanation for why they should be abandoned is pretty simple: Amelia Earhart.

    17. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure what you're proposing. That any cargo is winched up 10km+, then transported to it's destination and dropped by parachute? Or should the balloons drag their cargo on 10km long ropes (actually that might be pretty fun, as long as you live underground and have a few cameras topside).

    18. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      Hydrogen wasn't the Hindenburg's downfall. It was the diesel fuel. At low pressure hydrogen is relatively benign. Hydrogen however, is somewhat harder to contain, and can embrittle metal.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    19. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if it was MythBusters, but I saw one about the dangers of hydrogen vs gasoline. They set up a tank of hydrogen and a tank of gasoline, and shot each with a 30-30 rifle. The hydrogen just escaped from the hole in its tank, while the gasoline tank exploded in a huge fireball.

      The trouble with hydrogen isn't that it burns so easily, the trouble is the molecule is so small it's difficult to contain.

    20. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, the Mythbusters have tried to ignite a fuel tank (following the Hollywood myth that when a car gets shot, it will explode in a huge fireball), and only with a lot of effort (using tracer rounds) they managed to get a fire. No big explosions there.

      Hydrogen is small, helium is smaller! When testing for leaks, you use He as it's the smallest (so leaks most) and easiest detected (not normally present in the atmosphere). He is actually the hardest gas to contain.

    21. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by a_hanso · · Score: 1

      Are any of us here willing to take the risk, provided the hull was non-flammable and structurally stable? I can't see myself doing it unless it's built as a collection of fully independent hydrogen compartments. Even if a few burns catastrophically, the ship should be able to make a controlled descent.

    22. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      While I'm not interested in being a test pilot, if it has been tested and found to be at least as safe as a car, why not? I try not to let irrational fear rule my life, while you apparently do.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    23. Re:Funny idea... He He He... by a_hanso · · Score: 1

      why not? I try not to let irrational fear rule my life, while you apparently do.

      I applaud you for your bravery.

      I am, in fact, talking about taking the risk before the technology is human rated to that level (after which there is no risk to speak of and even those with no scientific knowledge can feel safe flying in one). The key is redundancy, which a big part of the reason why air travel is considered safe (the other being the fact that it is now based very mature technology). Most modern helium airships don't have (nor need) multiple gas compartments but hydrogen dirigibles should have them.

  5. The annual staple of science magazines. by dorpus · · Score: 2

    Every year, without fail, there is an article about the blimp renaissance. Been that way since the 1930s. Akron calls itself the blimp capital of the world. I remember a college job fair where there was some kooky company from Quebec that made hydrogen-filled blimps, and they insisted that hydrogen is not flammable.

    1. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by dorpus · · Score: 1

      And I remember a demonstration from a chemistry 101 class where a professor put a blowtorch to an air-filled balloon vs. a hydrogen-filled balloon. The latter had a much louder explosion.

    2. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      And I remember a demonstration from a chemistry 101 class where a professor put a blowtorch to an air-filled balloon vs. a hydrogen-filled balloon. The latter had a much louder explosion.

      If it exploded, then it wasn't filled with hydrogen, but rather a mixture of hydrogen and air. If the hydrogen was pure, it would have burned, and quickly, but there would have been no "bang".

      Hydrogen is flammable, but since it rises quickly, it is less dangerous than gasoline vapor. Over a billion people safely use gasoline everyday.

    3. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by FrankSchwab · · Score: 1

      The problem with hydrogen, of course, is that it burns at a wide range of concentrations - from 4 to 75%, according to Wikipedia. Gasoline only burns at between 1.4 and 7.5% in air. So a hydrogen leak is far more likely to catch fire or explode than a gasoline leak.

      --
      And the worms ate into his brain.
    4. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You might want to brush up on the fire triangle. Hydrogen is a fuel, but still requires oxygen and heat to create an explosion or a fire.

    5. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      The BALLOON explodes, not the hydrogen.

      The extra bang comes thanks to the quick burning of the hydrogen - when the balloon bursts, the hydrogen is like a cloud in the air, and for a short while can be ignited. Which is exactly what that blowtorch does. When the balloon bursts the hydrogen will instantly ignite, and burn really rapidly, causing the louder "boom" you hear.

    6. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by azalin · · Score: 1

      The usual setup for this "experiment" would consist of a Hydrogen only and a Hydrogen+Oxygen filled balloon. An air filled third balloon might be optional, but doesn't really make much sense. Fill them, let them rise to the ceiling, attach a candle to a stick, place burning candle under balloon. While the first might be slightly louder than an air filled balloon, the second one will be substantially.

    7. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I don't think you really want to explode a whole balloon full of hydrogen+oxygen. At least not if you value your ears, and your windows. A 5-8 cm soap bubble of the stuff gives a pretty serious bang already...

    8. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I've done it. Party balloon, filled from an electrolysis source. The bang is indeed quite loud. I was about two meters away (Arm + meter-stick-with-candle-on-the-end) and didn't take any ear damage.

    9. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Are you sure they weren't telling you it's inflammable?

      On a more serious note, relating to the comment of the AC, one of the ways to make a fuel oil storage tank more safe it to pump fuel gas into it. The idea behind it is that if the entire atmosphere is hydrocarbons you can keep the oxygen concentration below the LFL and have a very low risk of fire. With proper safeguards hydrogen should be no more dangerous.

    10. Re:The annual staple of science magazines. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      it would have burned, and quickly, but there would have been no "bang".

      More like "whoomp" and not loud at all. Empty a firecracker and set fire to the powder, and it won't go "bang" either.

  6. This time round, this might even work by muecksteiner · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For niche markets, that is. Such as point-to-point delivery of oversized and/or very heavy loads that are simply not transportable by road. A rugged and dependable vehicle of this kind could probably sell some dozen copies across the U.S., and even more world-wide. If these guys are sensible about their corporate cost structure, and do not base their expenditure on expectations of selling thousands of the things, they could be just fine, and be in this for the long run.

    If their basic airship design is sound, of course. But it probably is - getting that sort of thing right is not *that* hard. They could do fairly nicely working examples in the 1920ies (provided they did not fill them with Hydrogen, but fire protection should be a no-brainer these days).

    And the worst enemy of airships, the weather, is now firmly under control from an operational viewpoint - something it was absolutely not back then. Weather forecasts are so accurate nowadays that such vehicles can just reliably avoid those areas where they could get into trouble. One would not be operating scheduled services that have to be at some point at a given time with them anyway. With these specialised heavy lifters, you would rather be delivering oversized pieces of machinery and such in a one-off fashion. And if one of these things arrives two days late because of a thunderstorm front, it is usually not that much of a problem.

    1. Re:This time round, this might even work by mister2au · · Score: 1

      That was my first thought too ...

      But then I could not really see why this design would out-perform the helicopter/airship hybrid designs - most of those have thrust vectoring props which seems to be a more responsive system for hover and add the possibility of faster horizontal flight.

    2. Re:This time round, this might even work by muecksteiner · · Score: 1

      It probably would not outperform one of those, if something like that existed. But I'm not aware of any such vehicle that is currently operational (or even under active development), in the size/lifting capacity bracket that this company is aiming for?

      In my opinion, the main selling point of their ships would be the lifting capacity of 66 tons. The largest helicopter out there, the Mi-26, can lift 20 tons at most, and has fairly atrocious operating costs per hour. And as stuff increases in weight, so do its chances of not fitting on a truck any longer - think outsized pieces of machinery, and such. In some specialised cases, it can make a big difference for economical assembly of factories, powerplants and such if you can ship in some bulky pieces of machinery that weigh up to 66 tons apiece without having to assemble them on-site. So a couple of such ships might find steady employment all over the country for odd jobs like that.

      Whether they will sell enough of them to break even is anyone's guess. But as I said - if they are sensible, and keep the ball low, they just might pull it off. Just build a unsophisticated big lifter that gets stuff done, avoid the temptation to re-invent the wheel and to add fancy gizmos or revolutionary tech, and they should be fine.

    3. Re:This time round, this might even work by afidel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One obvious use to me is in the delivery of the parts for windmills. Those things are absolutely huge and are pretty much by definition installed in places without a road network. That work alone could probably justify more than a dozen ships since we're expecting to build tens of thousands of windmills in the coming decades.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:This time round, this might even work by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      These days, PR reasons are probably the best reasons they shouldn't be filled with hydrogen. We know how to build non-flammable hulls, and even on the Hindenburg, most of the passengers survived (compare that to plane crashes).

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    5. Re:This time round, this might even work by mrclisdue · · Score: 1

      Except that we modern folk call them "windmills" today, just as we'll call them "windmills" tomorrow, and no amount of shouts from the micro-percentile of the populace of, "That's not correct! It's the longer, awkward, unfluid dual-word "wind turbine"", will ever change that.

      Citation? See "hacker".

      cheers,

    6. Re:This time round, this might even work by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Don't know where you're from, but no one in our entire nation (well, apart from old fogeys) call wind turbines windmills.

    7. Re:This time round, this might even work by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      For niche markets, that is. Such as point-to-point delivery of oversized and/or very heavy loads that are simply not transportable by road.

      That's what's been claimed the last three or four dozen times the airship was "poised to make a comeback" (for sure, for real this time). Despite it's breathless tone (which reads as if it were mostly cribbed from the press release and ad copy), I see nothing in the current offering that actually makes it any different.
       
      The key problem being there isn't exactly a surplus of things too big to haul by road laying around waiting for someone to invent a method of delivering them.
       

      And if one of these things arrives two days late because of a thunderstorm front, it is usually not that much of a problem.

      I've never heard of a project of that magnitude that could be shut down for two days while awaiting delivery of a key part without a problem.

    8. Re:This time round, this might even work by martas · · Score: 1

      Actually most people survive plane crashes: "95.7 percent of people involved in a plane crash actually survive. Even in the most serious class of crashes, more than 76 percent of those on board live to tell the tale" (source)

  7. revolutionize airship technology? by mister2au · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Revolutionary?

    Nope ... just the Segway of the Dirigible world ...

    1. Re:revolutionize airship technology? by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 2

      It could be r3VOLutionary if only they wrote Ron Paul across the side. Though, given his views on the Fed, I think he'd object to its self-inflationary capabilities.

  8. but if you don't have a ticket punch you out windo by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Funny

    but if you don't have a ticket he will punch you out of the window. And that is how you say good by in German.

  9. FedEx by mveloso · · Score: 1

    "So no, airships will always be tourist attractions. No one wants to pay more money to transport things less quickly."

    If it's faster than a container, slower than air freight, and has a price to match, there will be a market for it.

    Realistically speaking, though, they don't seem to lift very well. I'm looking at the O-1 airship: 177 feet long, cargo weight of 3290 lbs. That's pretty lame. The soviet V6 was 344ft and could to 20k lbs...which is less than 1/3 the maximum weight of a 20-foot container.

    However, as a large semi-stationary platform it would be ideal. I'm not sure how happy I'd be having an airship permanently anchored over my city, though from what I understand you get used to it.

    1. Re:FedEx by SomePgmr · · Score: 2

      According to the wiki entry this is more of a technology demonstrator, with a number of much larger, practical models in the works. 20, 60 and 500 ton capacity, and can be converted to carry people.

      At 120 knots, they're not fast, but if the cost works out that you can take a longer, more comfortable flight, more like traveling by large boat, some might prefer it over a traditional flight for vacation destinations and such.

    2. Re:FedEx by wvmarle · · Score: 3, Informative

      Try landing any of those in a typhoon, for 500 ton lifting capacity the blimp must be huge, and no matter how streamlined it's going to catch a lot of wind. Keeping them grounded in a typhoon will be a tall order even.

    3. Re:FedEx by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can imagine that they could be used for transporting things that right now there is no easy way to move.

      For example, mining trucks are limited in size by their tires. Since tires must be shipped from the factory in one piece, they can't be more than about 4-5m in diameter or they wouldn't be able to be transported by road. If you could transport them in the air, size would be irrelevant. At 6 tons times 6 tires, you would need a payload capacity of 36 tons to be able to move the tires from the factory to the mine site.

      Another example is oil fields and mines in Alaska and nothern Canada. Since there no roads going to them, equipment can only be moved in the winter when the land and lakes are frozen solid. With an airship, they could move equipment all year long. With a 60 ton capacity, it would be able to haul more than a tractor-trailer, and at 120kt it would go significantly faster too.

      dom

    4. Re:FedEx by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      At 120 knots, they're not fast, but if the cost works out that you can take a longer, more comfortable flight, more like traveling by large boat, some might prefer it over a traditional flight for vacation destinations and such.

      Fast air travel is cheap because you don't have to pay high labor costs for more than a few hours. Slow air travel would be as expensive as living in a hotel for the duration of the flight, as is sea travel.

    5. Re:FedEx by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I remember when a blimp got away during a storm over Melbourne. The TV crew got some great footage of the horizon swinging around by 180 degrees every few seconds.

    6. Re:FedEx by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      However, as a large semi-stationary platform it would be ideal.

      For whom?

      In pondering this, I see many more sinister applications than civilian ones.

    7. Re:FedEx by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Try landing a C-17 in a typhoon.

    8. Re:FedEx by SomePgmr · · Score: 2

      It says these require one pilot. It looks like attendants make about $40/hr. Google says the fuel cost in a 777 is about $10,000/hr. and I'm going to guess the maintenance on these is somewhere south of a commercial airliner.

      So I'm guessing the labor cost isn't really that big of an issue, even if the flight time is 4x's as long. Obviously I haven't seen actual operating expenses on the non-existent craft we're talking about... so I'm just speculating.

    9. Re:FedEx by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Living in a hotel for a few days is a lot cheaper than an airplane ticket across a major ocean.

      From NYC to London is 5500km at 120kt that would take just under two days. Even if it took 3 days and cost $250 a night it would still be competitive price wise with that flight.

    10. Re:FedEx by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      At 120 knots, they're not fast

      They're faster than boats, pretty much as fast as trains and much more fun than either. For a reasonably short trip (500 miles or less) they'd be great. I wouldn't want to cross the Atlantic in one, but flying around Europe would be cool..

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    11. Re:FedEx by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      One tornado and EVERYTHING is gone, including buildings made with steel girders. I've been in one, you can't possibly imagine the destructive force of one unless you have as well. Imagine being inside a giant blender? That's what being inside a tornado is like. Pictures simply don't do it justice.

    12. Re:FedEx by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      However, as a large semi-stationary platform it would be ideal.

      For whom?

      In pondering this, I see many more sinister applications than civilian ones.

      Balloons/blimps/whatever are relatively easy to shoot down, certainly compared with small drones, so I'm not sure how sinisterly effective they would be.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    13. Re:FedEx by Immerman · · Score: 1

      The ultimate cell-phone tower for one - though that probably calls for something more like a Dark Sky Station operating autonomously above pretty much all atmosphere and weather. From 25 miles up you could cover a 25 mile radius with negligible signal falloff and virtually no terrain shadows in all but the steepest mountainous terrain. Plus at that altitude the horizon is ~450miles away (from the "anchor point"), rather than the ~50 mile ground-based limit, increasing the potential coverage area ~80-fold. And by fine-tuning your antenna's broadcast profile you could keep signal strength aproximately constant over that entire range.

      Effectively it becomes something like a geostationary satellite that can be placed over any point instead of just over the equator, and is 22,000 miles closer, which reduces the required signal strength immensely and brings speed-of-light delays below the perceptible limit (.2 seconds round-trip for geostationary). Its also much cheaper/easier to bring down for periodic refueling and maintenance.

      But yeah, it similarly enhances authoritarian applications as well.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:FedEx by dywolf · · Score: 1

      that doesnt invalidate the concept. thats simply an engineering/usage problem to be overcome. ships and planes dont sail through storms they dont have to. blimps wouldnt either.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    15. Re:FedEx by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      I would pay that kind of money to travel like a human being rather than be shoe-horned into one of those so-called seats on passenger planes. I'm not fat (or even tall) and flying is such an unpleasant experience, I avoid it as much as possible.

    16. Re:FedEx by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I think you meant to reply to the comment I replied to rather than me. I was replying to someone who said a tornado would ruin a blimp, I pointed out that tornados ruin everything in their paths. Overcoming something that can twist huge steel girders is quite an engineering problem! As you say, though, nobody's going to be flying a blimp or an airplane through weather that threatens tornados.

  10. Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Informative

    As you can see on their web site, Airship Ventures is out of business and there's a campaign to save the airship from being scrapped.

    1. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Very sad, and strange that they couldn't get it working in San Francisco of all places. You'd think there was a better market for it there than in Friedrichshafen, where they have been running a similar operation for some 15 years. Maybe Germany just has more airship nuts still.

      Airships are still too valuable to be "scrapped" like a regular ship, though. Eureka isn't turning into nails... What's going to happen is that the company in Friedrichshafen will get the dismantled ship back, as they sold all their ships with that stipulation.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    2. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Video from the investor meeting.

      Poor Mr. Hackenbacker. :(

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      I don't understand what this has to do with the article.

    4. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Megane · · Score: 1

      After a quick ctrl-F of TFA, it seems that in the comments someone BUT OUR PRECIOUS HELIUMS! claimed that the price of helium was why they went out of business. Then someone else NO U said that wasn't the reason, it was something else.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    5. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by epSos-de · · Score: 1
      Aeros Craft is nothing like the Airship Ventures. Their boss is a former Russian immigrant and an aviation geek, who came to US and realized his dream of building an Airship. They have been in business for a long time until they could build this big airship, which is delayed for a year already. Their website did not explain why the delay came, but I would guess that they needed more money and had trouble to sell their existing products in the time of the financial crisis.

      Aeros Craft is a serious company that has serious leaders and engineers. In comparison to that, Airship Ventures did not have the experience with issues and not enough design expertise.

      Imagine that you could board that airship in LA or so and sleep in it comfortably over night and be in Peru or Ecuador on the next day. This would be much more comfortable, becasue you would have the option to lie down in a ship like this.

    6. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      The Airship Ventures "Zeppelin NT" is built by the German ZLT Zeppelin Luftschifftechnik GmbH & Co KG. It is a technically accomplished craft, given the obvious and insurmountable limitations of a Zeppelin, and has operated flawlessly in the San Francisco Bay area. Its technical factors had nothing to do with the failure of the company. The company failed because nobody needs Zeppelins. This is the unfortunate truth that has prevented Aeros from gaining funding

    7. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      I don't understand what this has to do with the article.

      Oh. I'm sorry for you :-)

      A company is about to complete their Zeppelin airship, although, uh, oops, this is only one that can't carry a payload. It's sort of the rigid airship equivalent of an RC toy plane or a balloon on a rope. Another company, which happens to own one of the two modern Zeppelin airships capable of carrying payload and passengers, can not support itself even in one of the most forward-looking and technically-oriented regions of the world. They have shown that nobody wants Zeppelins.

    8. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Are the differences in design and capability not apparent from a quick look at their website?

    9. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      There are many things about the web site that look fraudulent. I know this company has produced more modest technology successfully, but this particular project has a number of things that don't look real.

      Look at the cockpit photo. A number of radios and electronic boxes on a shelf above the window, and a couple of computer monitors. That is a mock-up for a photo, not a real cockpit at all.

      Look at the diagram of how the "no ballast" technology works. The craft vents Hydrogen, not Helium, to the outside when it needs to reduce lift. And, I suppose when it needs more it makes it by electrolysis. Which has energy and time problems.

      Look at the assembly photos. Really thin aluminized mylar sheets that aren't cut for the shape are being stretched across the frame, and they're full of wrinkles. That's not a real lighter-than-air envelope.

      And pick out the landing gear from the landing gear photo. Is it the inflatable bladder? Is it the various temporary-looking struts?

      There is really a lot to question.

    10. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Well had you started out with this argument rather than pointing to a relatively unrelated business it would have lent more credence to your perspective. As it stands I'm now equally suspicious of both sides. :D You are right of course, there are a lot of questions yet to be answered. But while I wouldn't invest in them just yet I'm also unwilling to write them off as malice-aforethought frauds at this point, their claims seem a lot more like evolution than revolution, something badly needed in the neglected dirigibles business.

    11. Re:Airship Ventures Out Of Business by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      What makes Airship Ventures unrelated? While their craft uses conventional ballast and a conventional shape, it's the only model of rigid airship in the world at the moment, and it's an economic failure.

      So, what we need to go up against economic failure is a game-changer. It's not clear that this is one. Ballast-less also means the craft is lighter. And the shape is made to avoid sidewise air while having a huge profile from above or below. Wind over mountains and thermals would be a problem.

  11. Non-renewable resource by MMORG · · Score: 4, Informative

    Helium is a non-renewable resource, even more so than liquid hydrocarbon fuels. At least with jet fuel you could synthesize it if you really wanted to and had a large enough energy input, but the only way to synthesize helium is to fuse hydrogen in large quantities and if we knew how to do that in a controllable fashion we probably wouldn't need to mess around with dirigibles. Once you extract helium from the ground it eventually ends up in the atmosphere and then escapes to space, so once it's gone it's gone for good.

    1. Re:Non-renewable resource by afidel · · Score: 1

      We're already extracting tons and tons of Helium every year, we're just not bothering to capture it because it has no economic value.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:Non-renewable resource by jsilver212 · · Score: 1

      We're already extracting tons and tons of Helium every year, we're just not bothering to capture it because it has no economic value.

      Is helium extraction output really measured in tons? I'd think negative tons would be a more helpful metric. Anyway, I would buy He in tanks by cubic feet and psi.

    3. Re:Non-renewable resource by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is helium extraction output really measured in tons? I'd think negative tons would be a more helpful metric. Anyway, I would buy He in tanks by cubic feet and psi.

      Mass and weight are separate measurements. One is of the amount of matter, the other is of force.

    4. Re:Non-renewable resource by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2

      It would be easier to breed alpha emitters.

    5. Re:Non-renewable resource by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      23% of the baryonic mass of the universe is helium, the vast majority created within three minutes of the big bang. According to Wikipedia.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    6. Re:Non-renewable resource by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Yeap, but here in Earth helium is quite rare. It has a tendency of going away once it reaches the atmosphere.

    7. Re:Non-renewable resource by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >Helium is a non-renewable resource

      Uh, no.

      Helium is produced as a byproduct of radioactive decay. Alpha particles, after all, are just helium nuclei.

      If there was any reason to, we could make helium on demand.

      It's just cheaper to extract it naturally right now.

    8. Re:Non-renewable resource by Sentrion · · Score: 1

      Republican Counterpoint: But if the lives were really worth saving then someone would pony up the cash to pay for the helium extraction. If nobody is paying for it, then the lives aren't worth as much as people claim.

    9. Re:Non-renewable resource by Sentrion · · Score: 1

      Just use Hydrogen. You can extract it straight from water, and it's lighter than Helium. That's what the Germans used back in the 30's.

    10. Re:Non-renewable resource by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      But how does using helium in a dirigible consume the helium. It may be tricky to prevent it from escaping, but is it insurmountable?

  12. And for some other reason... by Press2ToContinue · · Score: 1

    For some other reason, it reminds me of something else.

    --
    Sent from my ENIAC
  13. No! Lana! The helium! by tallguywithglasseson · · Score: 1

    Hello, airplanes? It's blimps. You win.

  14. CargoLifter by hholzgra · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CargoLifter - made it about as far as building a small blimp-size prototype and a nice large assembly hangar for "the real thing" ... which is now used as a large indoor beach resort instead

    And even back then it was pretty clear that their planned fleet size whould totally exhaust available Helium supplies ...

  15. Use Vacuum instead of Helium by GoodnaGuy · · Score: 1

    This would require a smaller volume balloon than the equivalent helium balloon. There is the small technological breakthrough that needs to be made for the containment vessel. At the moment the only thing that can contain a vaccuum is something very thick and heavy like steel which would ruin the whole project.

    1. Re:Use Vacuum instead of Helium by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah I wonder what you could do with a perfect sphere of carbon fibre.

    2. Re:Use Vacuum instead of Helium by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Here's a concept photo, though I can't say how detached it is from physics.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    3. Re:Use Vacuum instead of Helium by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      This seems even more interesting though...

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  16. I'll take one... by Mysteryprize · · Score: 2

    ...If it means I don't have to deal with the TSA!

    1. Re:I'll take one... by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      Good luck then. If it ever does become a commonplace transportation then some lazy and unintelligent legislator is just gong to deem it the same as fixed wing aircraft because they both, like, go into the sky, and therefore subject to the same restrictions.

  17. Re:but if you don't have a ticket punch you out wi by ipquickly · · Score: 2, Funny

    I like the Austrian way better.

  18. Hydrogen isn't that bad by Catmeat · · Score: 4, Informative

    I should point out that aside from the Hindenberg, the only time airships ever went down in flames was during World War 1, when they were being shot at. Even then, German Zepplins could take a lot of damage, and it was only when British aircraft started carrying a mixture of explosive and incendiary rounds (called Buckingham and Pomeroy mixture, after the inventors of the two bullet types) that they could feasably destroy a Zeppelin. Even then, aircraft attacking Zeppelins sometimes found themselves firing hundreds of rounds, at a range too close to miss, and having no. Remember, today we don't doubt the safety of 747s, simply because World War 2, B-17 bombers used to come apart when they were shot at enough.

    Also during World War 1, the British operated hundreds of SS Class, Coastal Class and NS Class, non-rigid blimps. Not a single one was lost to fire during 10's of thousands of flying hours. Admittedly, several WW1 British airships were destroyed in a catastrophic fire in a hanger, but that was because one Darwin Award nominee decided to get busy with testing a radio, while he was standing in a puddle of petrol that was leaking from a broken fuel tank.

    So I'm inclined to write off the Hindenberg as a on-off, at a time when aircraft routinely dropped out of the sky. I might even go so far as to give a tiniest whisker of credence to the conspiracy theory, that it was down to an anti-Nazi saboteur.

    Now, I fully appreciate hydrogen dirigibles will absolutely never, ever, ever, fly again simply because of PR and (well justified) safety fears. But I guess my point is that they could be made safe, or at least, safe enough if there was a need.

    1. Re:Hydrogen isn't that bad by hoboroadie · · Score: 2

      I'm fairly certain that if naptha was only now being proposed as a motor fuel, it would wisely be banned from the public roadways. Pretty damned dangerous.

      --
      They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
    2. Re:Hydrogen isn't that bad by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I'm intrigued as to how you think we'd be getting around without naptha...

      All of life is a risk trade-off. I took a huge risk by getting out of bed this morning, any number of things could have killed me by now, but I don't want to spend my life lying down.

    3. Re:Hydrogen isn't that bad by Sentrion · · Score: 2

      Counter-examples (plural):

      http://www.airships.net/hydrogen-airship-accidents

      The Hindenburg was just the last and most famous of dozens of fiery hydrogen airship disasters. It was famous because it was one of the first disasters to be reported live over radio broadcast, not to mention the remarkable film and the fact that it was at a time when records were first being made of live broadcasts. The other disasters were just not as publicized, but the Hindenburg captured the attention of the entire world.

    4. Re:Hydrogen isn't that bad by UK+Boz · · Score: 1

      +1, how do you up-vote on this frickin site?

      --
      www.boznz.com Simple solutions to complex problems.
    5. Re:Hydrogen isn't that bad by Carnildo · · Score: 2

      That list is technically correct, but not useful. It's basically a list of every hydrogen airship where fire played a part in its destruction. For example, it includes LZ-30 (crashed, then the escaping hydrogen caught fire -- it was "destroyed by hydrogen" in the same way that an airplane that crashed and burned was "destroyed by jet fuel"), ZR-2 (broke up mid-flight, the engines caught fire and ignited the hydrogen), and LZ-87, LZ-94, LZ-97, and LZ-105, destroyed in a mysterious hangar explosion (sabotage was suspected but not proven).

      Of the airships listed, only LZ-18, LZ-40, SL-6, the Wingfoot Air Express, and the Hindenburg were definitely lost due to in-flight hydrogen fires, while the SL-9, LZ-104, and Dixmude may have been. The other nineteen entries in that list either burned after crashing, or caught fire on the ground (usually during maintenance).

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    6. Re:Hydrogen isn't that bad by hoboroadie · · Score: 2

      IIRC it took a while for internal-combustion gasoline tech to exceed the performance of the incumbent steam, diesel, and electric power sources. Presently, the incumbent gasoline tech has achieved monumental inertia, but it is primarily the financial interests who are impeding progress to a non-biosphere destroying system.
      I would prefer to strap myself onto a can of vegetable oil or even kerosene, than to one of gasoline, FWIW. Vegetable oil can be nearly carbon-neutral, as well.

      --
      They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  19. Hydrogen storage and leakage problem by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

    Gaseous hydrogen leaks a great deal, no matter how it's stored. That's a cost that will strongly affect the economy of such aircraft. One could theoretically use the hydrogen for fuel for the propellers or electronic systems safely, so I wouldn't anticipate large problems with carrying enough fuel, but hydrogen molecules are very small and tend to leak right through pressure containers. And as the hydrogen leaks, it will tend to collect in any physical reservoirs around the gas bag. That could make preventing flammable buildups, especially near modern electrical systems, quite awkward.

    Hydrogen is also quite reactive. (This is partly why it burns so well.) So I'd expect corrosive surprises with materials used in such an unusual environment, especially if low-cost bidders substitute cheap components that haven't been tested properly in the infrastructure exposed to the hydrogen. This isn't to say it can't be done economically, but the first few such ships are going to be prone to some unexpected failures due to interaction with an unusual environment.

  20. Slowest possible shipping method by yt8znu35 · · Score: 1

    "With its new cargo handling technology, ... and point to point delivery,..."

    I can see merchants adding a "Dirigible P2P shipping (45 days)" radio button to their websites. Obviously it would be listed AFTER 5-day ground or freight.

  21. THUNDERBIRD 2 is go! by MrKaos · · Score: 1
    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  22. Did not RTFA by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    This is what I thought of, those Zeppelin NTs are pretty sophisticated, crew of two, &c. Goodyear is replacing their fleet with them, I think.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  23. Re:Zeppelin NT by Megane · · Score: 2

    I'm still waiting for Zeppelin XP. (But I think I'll stay away from Zeppelin Vista and Zeppelin 8.)

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  24. Re:mach 10 by Immerman · · Score: 1

    If nothing else it's certainly an easier sell than a weather balloon...

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  25. Re:but if you don't have a ticket punch you out wi by tattood · · Score: 1

    So do I.

    --
    WTB [sig], PST!!!
  26. This is an Archer episode by gelfling · · Score: 1

    "Hello planes? This is blimps, you win".

  27. Re:Beep Beep Satelite by efalk · · Score: 1

    One of the Eureka's sister ships (or was it the Eureka itself?) was used in Africa for exactly this kind of research for a while.

  28. Re:Every decade event - overland by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

    Estimates are about 4x less fuel efficient than trucks when roads exist.

    Good to know.

    But fuel expense is just one of the costs of running a fleet of trucks. If one airship could deliver the same goods as ten big trucks, the total cost of goods shipped might be less (factoring in employee expenses-- drivers, mechanics, dispatchers, etc-- licensing, insurance, taxes, and so on).

    But just looking at fuel efficiency, I am guessing that there are routes over mountains where airships would be more efficient than trucks on steep, winding roads. I drove across the northern tier of USA states the spring before last, and there were an awful lot of miles one had to go just to get around this or that obstacle, or line up with some mountain pass.

    Another several times less fuel efficient than trains when rails exist.

    Oh, yeah. Hard to beat rail once the tracks are laid down and paid for.

    --
    Will
  29. It's not the flames by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

    It's the storms, not the flames, that are the demise of lighter-than-air craft. Solve that problem, and they will be more practical.

  30. Re:Stop Using Helium! by Sentrion · · Score: 1

    It's in the government's interest to consume Helium as fast as possible, to keep it out of the hands of the Germans who could use it in their long-range strategic weapons, AKA "Zeppelins". Or it may just be one of the disadvantages of having laws, regulations, and policies that aren't scheduled for mandatory review every X years or so. Don't even get me started on why we still occupy military bases in Germany and UK over 20 years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, or why states regulate marriage but no longer restrict pre-marital relationships or cohabitation, or why we support democracy in Libya and help suppress it in Bahrain.

  31. Re:Nitrogen? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    It was a joke, perhaps not a great one. Nitrogen is nearly the same weight as air, being its main component. In any case, it's hard to view a balloon full of hydrogen as more dangerous than a tank full of jet fuel. They're both pretty scary to tell the truth. Just put hydrogen in it and don't take passengers.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  32. Re:Wrong. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    I thought it was 120km not kn.
    2999 nm is pretty much what I said in km.

    If you are correct that only makes it cheaper and even more plausible as a method of travel.

  33. ConcordLift a better alternative by signdovesf · · Score: 1

    Heavy load at lower cost. See concordlift.com. Presented at the recent AIAA ATIO conference. The paper, presentation and animation are on the web site. There are "issues". Every issue identified as a known possible solution