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Facebook Says EU 'Right To Be Forgotten' Would Harm Privacy

judgecorp writes "The European Commission has proposed a "right to be forgotten" online, which would allow users to remove personal data they had shared. The idea has had a lot of criticism, and now Facebook claims it would actually harm privacy. Facebook says the proposal would require social media sites to perform extra tracking to remove data which has been copied to other sites — but privacy advocates say Facebook has misunderstood what the proposal is all about."

52 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. Misunderstood? by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    privacy advocates say Facebook has misunderstood what the proposal is all about."

    Misunderstood, my ass. Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest.

    1. Re:Misunderstood? by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Misunderstood, my ass. Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest.

      Yeah, I'd have to say this is a willful 'misunderstanding'.

      Facebook's commodity is your data. That's how they make money. They don't want to be told that they would be required to delete your data upon request.

      Any time you see Facebook saying "Privacy laws would harm privacy", the real thing they're saying is "but that would cut into profits".

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Misunderstood? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "'Facebook misunderstood" is "Facebook obfuscated".

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    3. Re:Misunderstood? by Artraze · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, no, you misunderstand. Remember that adage "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"? Well, all Facebook has is privacy intrusion so of course the only way to enhance privacy is to intrude on it. Makes perfect sense when you think about it.

    4. Re:Misunderstood? by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Isn't that the exact opposite of Hanlon's Razor?

      Better said, and copied right from my old .signature archive:

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
        depends on his not understanding it"
                                        -- U. Sinclair

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    5. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sadly, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

      From FB's perspective, this would harm your privacy, because FB will have to find even more creative and treacherous ways to invade user privacy to make up for the fact that users could, at any time, choose to have said data removed. I could easily imagine them creating multiple shell corporations that really "store" your data, and then when you ask to have your data removed they simply say "sorry, we don't store your data, one or more of our many affiliate corporations store and manage user data .. you'll have to submit your requests to them..."

    6. Re:Misunderstood? by macbeth66 · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, it would not.

      Facebook would be responsible for what is posted on servers. Only. If someone copied the data to MySpace, that is a problem for MySpace, not Facebook.

      I think you would quite well working for Facebook.

    7. Re:Misunderstood? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      If they said "Facebook is lying through their teeth," people would perceive that as negative and would use that as an excuse to ignore what they're saying.

      How many times have you been watching an election, and you think there's a clear right and wrong choice (or one clear right choice and several wrong choices), and voters complain that the race had "too much mudslinging."

      Sometimes I want to shake such people by the collar and say "IT'S NOT 'NEGATIVE' IF IT'S TRUE, YOU MORON!... OKAY WELL MAYBE IT TECHNICALLY IS, BUT DO YOU GET MY POINT? Alright I'll stop yelling and let you go... wait, why are you running? I was explaining why candidate X is actually bad!"

      Anyway, suggesting that it was an innocent misunderstanding and not lying like a senator may simply be PR.

    8. Re:Misunderstood? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They don't make money from violating mine. Then again, I'm not on facebook because I don't want them to violate my privacy. Damndest thing.

      Other people can post pictures of you and "tag" you in them, regardless of whether or not you're actually a member of Facebook.

      The only way to know for certain that Facebook isn't violating your privacy would be to have access to every single media item on their servers, and manually go through them all to make sure no one else has posted your private information there.

      Or, you know, someone could pass a law...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    9. Re:Misunderstood? by Teun · · Score: 2
      The principle of EU privacy law is quite simple, even Facebook can understand it :)

      Facebook is responsible for what it does with your data, not what their users do with it.
      So when Facebook shares your data they have the responsibility to on request "unshare".

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    10. Re:Misunderstood? by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Isn't that the exact opposite of Hanlon's Razor?

      Pretty much. When someone trots out Hanlon's razor, see if mcgrew's razor fits the circumstance. If not, Hanlon applies. If so, someone's probably scamming someone. If there's an error that harms someone but doesn't help the person that made the error, than Hanlon is right. Too often it excuses malicious behavior -- always look at motives. "Oops, sorry, I made an error. Please don't notice that I benefitted at your expense."

    11. Re:Misunderstood? by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 2

      Personally, I think Facebook's attitude on this is a very good thing in the long run, and I hope they continue in this vein.

      Your average user has absolutely no idea, or just doesn't care, what data FB holds on them and how it is used. The more Facebook shout and cry about how difficult it is for them to remove data the more incidents there will be of people being harmed by their policies - this is unfortunate for those individuals, but in the long run it should serve as an education for others, who will hopefully think twice about the personal data they supply and who they supply it to.

      Keep it up Zuckerberg, you're providing a valuable service in the long term, and good on you for forsaking the share price in the process, nice to see somebody putting long-term ethical considerations above medium-to-long term profits.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    12. Re:Misunderstood? by Bengie · · Score: 3, Informative

      FB isn't supposed to allow linking to removed data. If someone copies data from FB to MySpace, then FB gets a request to remove said data, FB must also filter any links that could be referencing the copied versions on MySpace's site.

      EU wants Google to do the same. If someone requests certain data removed, Google must also remove all references to any/all copies any user has made anywhere on the internet, otherwise get fined.

    13. Re:Misunderstood? by sd4f · · Score: 2

      Motives always apply in business decisions, let the old maxim cui bono apply, (translates; "to whose benefit"), and you'll usually see why things happen, the way they happen. Original post, in my opinion, is correct, and i think hanlons razor is too forgiving in the corporate world.

    14. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Thank you for your request to delete your personal data

      Because Facebook LLC-Subcorp 3b is a wholly owned but separate subsidiary of Facebook LLC-Subcorp 2a1, we do not have your facebook credentials such as your username or password (that would violate your privacy).

      We do however, store and back up your personal information, which you authorized Facebook LLC-Subcorp 2b2 to transmit to us on your behalf.

      Because you have granted Facebook a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty free license to reproduce, reuse, market and otherwise utilize your personal content in the known universe in perpetuity, we will not actually delete your data. We will however, stop re-sharing it with Facebook LLC-Subcorp #1b2, a Malaysian-Ireland-Turkey LLC.

      To verify you own the identify you are requesting to purge yourself from our systems, please supply us with the following:

      1) Your full name
      2) Your place of birth
      3) Your date of birth
      4) Your mother's maiden name
      5) Your current address
      6) Your phone number
      7) Your email addresses
      8) Your login credentials for google
      9) A scanned, notarized copy of your driver's license

      When we have validated your identity, we will be happy to remove your personal information from our servers.

      For our protection, your removal request may be archived for up to seven years. Your personal information may also remain on backup tapes, magnetic media, aggregated dimensional analysis units, and in any other system we have already sold, licensed, subcontracted, or authorized to use on our behalf.

      By submitting a removal request, you authorize us to forward your request to subcontractors as we see fit, with whom we may have exclusive business relationships to resell your identity.

      Thank you, your privacy is very important to us."

    15. Re:Misunderstood? by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thing is, if I have some data X and I delete it, somewhere there has to be a record that says "hognoxious deleted X", which contains X.

      Otherwise, you can't prove that anyone is illegally holding a copy of X.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    16. Re:Misunderstood? by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When someone asks "What do I care if someone posts a picture of me on facebook?", what they're really asking is "What do I care if someone posts a picture of me on facebook when what they can do is exactly the same as any other internet side out there?"

      Theoretically, you're 100% correct. If it's on an interweb, someone could find it.

      In practice, if it's not on fuckyou or tubeface, loan officers and HR drones won't be able to. And they're the ones who can make your life suck.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    17. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dear Facebook,

      Thank you for your response to our legal position.

      As you have not complied, your assets across the EU have been frozen, and any executive who sets foot in any EU nation is subject to arrest and criminal prosecution.

      Love and hugs,
      The guys who actually still make the laws over here

      I think when the EU starts fining them substantial amounts and/or issuing arrest warrants, Facebook will notice. Contrary to common belief on US-centric forums like Slashdot, the EU does actually have teeth when it comes to US tech firms taking liberties, and has been known to bite.

      In case anyone thinks this is just hyperbole, consider that the EU (both citizenry and government) is getting very fed up with the US (both corporations and government) thinking that it can dictate how everyone else's legal systems and business regulations should work. Anything that screws Facebook while strengthening the EU data protection/privacy position and generating income for the EU via fines is basically a political/economic win/win proposition for the people who are going to be driving the process. Pretty much the only potential downside is losing favour with the US government with consequences elsewhere, but right now the US government is pretty unpopular with everyone so that probably doesn't matter much.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    18. Re:Misunderstood? by maz2331 · · Score: 2

      Wouldn't the proper recourse in such a case be to sue the person who uploaded the images or other information under a slander/libel law rather than going after the site that they posted it to?

    19. Re:Misunderstood? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Not that is not true. FB/Google only have to remove data you uploaded to them. Links to other sites would have to be dealt with by contacting those sites directly.

      The right only extends to data you yourself have uploaded. If people mirror it you can claim copyright infringement but, as is the case right now, would have to go after each copy individually. Hopefully Google et al will make it easy to do, but it is not a requirement.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  2. In other news... by sconeu · · Score: 5, Informative

    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    1. Re:In other news... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      War is Peace
      Freedom is Slavery

      As we approach the 30th anniversary I propose we add these to the list:

      Sharing is Stealing
      Privacy is Terrorism

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:In other news... by Time_Ngler · · Score: 2

      Considering that this bill requires the implementation one of the core ideas in the book, ie. the purposeful destruction and reshaping of information, it is quite rich that you would use it to try and rally support for the bill.

  3. So by the same logic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The "right not to be punched in the face" would harm health?

    1. Re:So by the same logic... by Mitreya · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1) When the invaders come, roll over and become their slaves.
      2) When the invaders come, kill them all.

      I am almost certain that the saying refers to wars that are motivated as pre-emptive strikes.
      Fighting back against invaders is more of a "fighting for freedom" than a "fighting for peace"

  4. Facebook on Privacy by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
  5. Problem solved by golden+age+villain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Facebook says the proposal would require social media sites to perform extra tracking to remove data which has been copied to other sites

    Maybe they can start by not copying user data to other sites.

    1. Re:Problem solved by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      That is my point. Are you now not copying data from Google to your site? Is that not "copying data to other sites"?

      It is YOU copying YOUR data to other sites.

    2. Re:Problem solved by Teun · · Score: 2
      The law is clear, in your example Facebook is responsible for the data on their server and any place they shared it with, not for what you've done with it.

      Why is this simple concept for some so hard to understand!

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    3. Re:Problem solved by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      Unless you picked up the electrons from the Google server and inserted it in the new system then the new system is actually doing the work and you are just authorizing it.

      YOU are ordering it to be done, not Facebook. You are doing it, using the software that, gasp, is available on the website.

      Did you move the information? No,

      Yes, you did. You made use of software that accomplished what you wanted done. That doesn't mean you didn't do it and are responsible for it happening.

      An no, you did not do the sync, the app did.

      "I didn't shoot the victim, your honor, the gun did. I just pulled the trigger after pointing it in his general direction." "I didn't download kiddie pr0n, your honor, I just clicked a few buttons and the web browser downloaded it." If YOU told the app to do it then YOU did it and are responsible for it, not facebook. Of course the software did the actual operation, but it was YOUR intention for it to happen, and YOU know it happened.

      This law is intended to deal with the cases when you DID NOT do the copying and don't necessarily know it happened.

  6. Privacy has nothing to do with it by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To grant one person the right to be forgotten is to deprive another of the right to remember. The sharing of information once legitimately published cannot become illegitimate just because the person involved doesn't want it to be known. The "right" to be forgotten is a form of censorship and has nothing at all to do with privacy.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    1. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thank you. This is the only sensible position I've seen on this subject. If you're concerned about what Facebook will do with information concerning you (note: not "your" information), then don't give it to them.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Desler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But what if you never gave it to them?

    3. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by dywolf · · Score: 5, Informative

      We're not talking about criminal records or warcrimes here.
      We are talking about being tracked and datamined, for profit.

      This is not a form of censorship.

      Facebooks right to know everything about and and make money off it does not carry more weight than my right to be left alone and not be tracked and not be datamined.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    4. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Mitreya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is the only sensible position I've seen on this subject. If you're concerned about what Facebook will do with information concerning you (note: not "your" information), then don't give it to them.

      I respectfully disagree. The information is mine (posts are copyrighted, surely?) and there should be some degree of control over that information. By that logic --
      "if you are concerned with what Google may do with your emails, don't open a Gmail account".
      "If you are concerned with what a physician may do with your medical history, don't go to a doctor"
      "If you are concerned with what bank may do with your money, do not give bank any of your money"

      Also, I am concerned about what other users give to facebook about me. Sometimes simply creating the account is enough to give away a crapload of information. I never understood people who have the time to go through and mark things like "I know this person because I worked with them at X" on Facebook. They are literally working for Facebook with no benefit to them.

    5. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by mark-t · · Score: 2

      Also, I am concerned about what other users give to facebook about me.

      If other people disrespect your privacy by freely giving details about you to facebook, that's an issue between you and those people, not you and facebook.

    6. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by hawkinspeter · · Score: 3, Informative

      When someone else posts a photo of you in a compromising scenario and tags you in it.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    7. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Hatta · · Score: 2

      The information is mine (posts are copyrighted, surely?)

      Copyright is not a fundamental right either. It is an unjust violation of our fundamental rights to free speech and our property rights. The very concept of ownership can only be meaningfully applied to rivalrous goods. You cannot own information, ever.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Actually, requiring facebook to delete that information is an issue between you and the fundamental right to freedom of speech.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Who's rights are more important? The puncher, or the punchee?
      Your right to remember me is secondary to my right to not be remembered

      The party being passive gets precedence. Forcing me to delete information is not a passive act on your part. You are advocating the threat of government violence to get someone to delete information. That is much more analogous to punching than sitting quietly minding your own business.

      We arent talking about censorship.

      Yes, yes you are. Any time the government prohibits the transfer of any information it is censorship. You might argue that it is censorship that is worth the risk to you, but it is dishonest to call it anything other than censorship.

      When done to one's physical person its called slavery.

      Uh, wow. False equivalence much? Give me a fucking break.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      Actually, requiring facebook to delete that information is an issue between you and the fundamental right to freedom of speech.

      Are you actually arguing that corporations are people and have the same rights, like the right to free speech?

      Are you arguing that a corporation from which you have purchased a product using a credit card has the right of free speech to post that credit card data and data about the transaction online for everyone else to see? Are you arguing that your doctor has the right to free speech, too, and can post details of your most recent office visit online, and you have no right to have it taken down?

      No, sorry, the "right of free speech" does not mean you have the right to speechify other people's information whenever or wherever you want.

    11. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by miltonw · · Score: 2

      Misrepresenting what the debate is about is a Strawman argument. An illogic.
      - Giving out credit card information is already against the law. The proposed "right to be forgotten" is not about that.
      - Spying on people's private lives is already against the law. Therefore the proposed "right to be forgotten" isn't needed to fight that situation.
      - Doctors are required, by law to keep patient information confidential. Therefore the proposed "right to be forgotten" is not applicable there either.

      Your examples are not examples that require this new "right to be forgotten". Your examples for why we need this new "right" are already handled by existing laws.

      All your arguments don't apply. You certainly "win" against your strawman opponent, but in the real world, you're not making headway.

      Why don't you talk about real situations not already covered by existing laws, that require this new "right"? Hmmm?

    12. Re:Privacy has nothing to do with it by Hatta · · Score: 2

      It's a proxy for violence. You don't think you are being violently aggressed upon when you are issued a speeding ticket? Just try refusing to pay and you will see how violent the government really is.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  7. Think twice. by Westwood0720 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Think twice before you post ANYTHING online. Because once its there, its there forever. Use discretion.

  8. Upton Sinclair by fldsofglry · · Score: 4, Informative

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! -- Upton Sinclair http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Upton_Sinclair

  9. It could be true. by pclminion · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, it isn't far-fetched to assume that lawmakers will do something idiotic that causes a bunch of consequences they didn't intend. While I can easily see Facebook trying to language-lawyer this shit to their advantage, I'd give it 50/50 chance the law actually does imply the goofy stuff Facebook says it does.

    I believe that laws should always be enforced in full and to the letter, along with all unintended consequences. This way, broken laws can be quickly identified and fixed (or repealed). It also would prevent prosecutors from selectively enforcing obscure provisions of the law to target specific individuals.

    When judges and juries start making exceptions for cases that are "obviously not what was meant" we just encourage more sloppy law-making.

  10. Fuck facebook x 3 by faustoc4 · · Score: 2

    Fuck facebook Fuck facebook Fuck facebook They are misunderstanding on purpose what is clearly written, also they cite an impossible limitation: they cannot control what is published in other sites/social networks. Well, no one is asking to achieve the impossible, just erase my data from your cloud whenever I ask

  11. Re:Ok... by Immerman · · Score: 2

    DNT is a completely different issue - there's nothing saying the corporate stalkers have to pay any attention to your DNT setting, it's simply a request that they don't do so. As such if DNT is off by default then having it on means "I care about this issue enough to ask you politely not to track me", whereas a with default-on all it mean is "I'm using browser X", and how exactly does that help anyone?

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  12. Yes, please by atisss · · Score: 2

    Please do track to which sites you are copying my information, and also please can I see the list.
    Option to remove some information from specific site would be nice.

  13. Facebook has no right to comment by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 2

    Facebook has no right to comment on this. We're talking about a person's right to privacy, not a corporation's right to privacy.

    Facebook is not a person; it is a corporation. It has one end goal: to make money. Everything Facebook says is driven by that one goal. If Facebook says that the right for people to be forgotten would harm privacy, what it really means is that the right for people to be forgotten would reduce Facebook's profits.

    --
    Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
  14. Not on FB, but someone else posted my info.... by realsilly · · Score: 4, Interesting

    .... and took it upon themselves to post information about me on-line. So as a non-FB user, I have every right to be forgotten when I never gave them (the user or Facebook) permission to put information about me out there. I didn't create an account. I tell everyone I know to not put information about me on Facebook or on any social network, but when someone else takes it upon themselves to post info about me, now FB claims that they own that data.

    This is where I have big issues with Privacy laws and companies who data mine and then sell that data.

    Don't I have every right to be forgotten, since I went out of my way to avoid being "remembered"?

    --
    Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
  15. Re:Keep the 'net free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The idiots who use Facebook deserve to be tracked.

    And what of those who don't use Facebook, but for whom Facebook has created shadow accounts?

    Do they deserve to be tracked too?