Degree Hack: Cobbling Together Credit Hours For Cheap

McGruber writes "The Chronicle of Higher Education has a web episode about Richard Linder, a US college student who was determined to do the impossible: earn a U.S. college degree while not taking on any student debt. Mr. Linder cobbled together an associate degree in liberal arts for a mere $3,000. He did it by transferring academic credits to Excelsior College, a regionally accredited institution that doesn't require students to take any of its own courses. Mr. Linder's earned his transferred credit hours from an array of unexpected sources: from high school Advanced Placement courses to classes taught by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the National Fire Academy. He even managed to get one credit hour from Microsoft." I find his creativity in breadth and sources of credit-worthy instruction more interesting than the pricetag, though the commenters on the linked story are sharply divided on the value of the courses taken. While $3,000 is cheap for an associate's degree compared to many U.S. colleges, it's not unheard of; tuition for locals at a community college near me wouldn't be too far off that, even without transferring in any credits.

Comments

Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

An "associate degree" is a degree like a PhD is a doctor. Not.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Here come the degree snobs. "You didn't really get an education unless you paid a fortune for it, like me."

Re:Bullshit

[ackthpt]

Here come the degree snobs.
"You didn't really get an education unless you paid a fortune for it, like me."

Or

"You didn't really get an education, unless you are massively in debt, like me."

Re:Bullshit

[crashumbc]

No but you DO get what you pay for in life.

  A Bachelors in Liberal Arts is "almost" worthless in terms getting a job(avg . A associate degree is worth less then less half that...

Re:Bullshit

[ByOhTek]

The bigger a degree, the more interest it'll engender. I've know people who've succeeded with associates degrees, but typically they don't get very far, very quick. The bachelors crowd tends to do a bit better.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

I got my PhD without any debt along the way or money from my parents. Go to a good undergrad that gives grants instead of loans to cover most of financial need (the annual price tag was $30+k, but few people actually paid anywhere near that...). Work a summer job to cover the rest, which doubles as gaining experience by working in a lab, etc (which often would be enough to cover most state university programs without any grants). Then most engineering and science programs will pay you to go to graduate school if you work as a TA, or better, as an RA essentially be paid to get your thesis done and papers to pad your resume.

Re:Bullshit

[ByOhTek]

Nah. Got a full bachelors of science without debt. No parental help either. Scholarships and grants.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand where your coming from, not to mention the PHD/doctorate comment killed his point, but in this case.. an associate degree in liberal arts? I can't think of a more pointless degree.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know about that. I dropped out of an associate's degree program, so don't have any degree, and my career is doing just fine. There are plenty of people with the same amount of experience and a bachelor's who are well below me on the career ladder.

Of course, 30 years of experience means it was a different game when I was getting started than it is today, a good degree might well be a necessity if you don't have experience. But in my 30 years and 8 jobs in IT, my education, or lack thereof, has only been brought up once, and I got a job offer from them anyway. (And, yes, every job I've had listed "Bachelor's Degree" as a requirement. It never really matters if you have a solid track record.)

Re:Bullshit

[ackthpt]

I got my PhD without any debt along the way or money from my parents. Go to a good undergrad that gives grants instead of loans to cover most of financial need (the annual price tag was $30+k, but few people actually paid anywhere near that...). Work a summer job to cover the rest, which doubles as gaining experience by working in a lab, etc (which often would be enough to cover most state university programs without any grants). Then most engineering and science programs will pay you to go to graduate school if you work as a TA, or better, as an RA essentially be paid to get your thesis done and papers to pad your resume.

A friend of mine is having his PhD entirely footed by the university he's performing research work at. How sweet it can be!

Re:Bullshit

[King_TJ]

I don't know about that? I'd say that there's more of a bell curve in effect here. You can *generally* get further along, faster in the job market with the bachelors than the associates, but those going beyond that to earn masters' degrees often wind up unable to convert them to productive, higher-paying jobs.

There's such as thing as becoming "too educated" for the majority of people to take an interest in hiring you. Sure, it works out great if someone is really seeking the niche you're specialized in and has the money to afford the salary such a position commands. But all too often, it just means the individual spends a LOT of time unemployed or very under-employed.

As just a couple examples I've witnessed myself?

I used to do on-site computer service for a guy with a PhD who had a job proofing science textbooks for a major publishing house. They wound up laying him off and he spent the next year trying to get another job, with no luck. He finally wound up having to sell his house and move to another state just to find employment again - and he took a big loss on the whole thing.

One of my former in-laws had her Masters in Criminal Justice and guess what it got her? She had a job for a while as a prison guard and worked, briefly with someone else running a bail bonds business (which failed when the associate didn't live up to her end of some of the promises she made). I'd say overall, she was far better off never wasting time on that degree.....

Re:Bullshit

[Opportunist]

Yes, MISTER Wolowitz.

Re:Bullshit

[ArhcAngel]

Quite right! Much better to go for philosophy. You won't be able to get a job but at least you will know "why".

Re:Bullshit

[ackthpt]

No but you DO get what you pay for in life.

  A Bachelors in Liberal Arts is "almost" worthless in terms getting a job(avg . A associate degree is worth less then less half that...

Degrees only make the Filters in HR deparments happy when screening job applicants.

I've been on interview committees where we've scanned portfolios and been mildly impressed until we asked a few questions to see how the applicant uses that hard earned knowledge. Beats me how some people get their degrees. Some have been utter frauds. Meanwhile, some of the brightest, most energetic people I've known only have a high school diploma, associates degree, certificate from a technical school or spent some time in the armed forces doing the sort of work which is largely being outsourced by the DoD these days.

It's what you make of it and how you spent your time while pursuing it. On the evening of my 21st birthday I was pulling an all-nighter in the computer lab while my friends were all getting drunk at a party in my honor.

Re:Bullshit

[jythie]

Depends on how good of a job you want. Many jobs no longer accept a high school diploma as a minimal education and require at least an associate degree. Often they do not care what the degree is, only that the person has one. I know a woman who was kicked out of college that slams into this barrier pretty frequently.

Re:Bullshit

[jythie]

In 30 years it has changed dramatically. Given how common degrees are, many HR departments will simply filter out any resumes that do not have one.

Re:Bullshit

[preaction]

I dropped out of a BS program, have 6 years of career experience, a dozen years total experience, and have never had a door shut on me (that I know of) due to my lack of "formal" education.

But I also recognize the gaps that a formal education would have filled, and work to educate myself.

A degree is nothing without the ambition, and ambition is everything.

Re:Bullshit

[hackula]

Liberal Arts will not typically give you a set career path like EE, CS, or Medicine, however, it does give you a real leg up in wide array of business fields. An English major has better chance of getting that marketing rep position (you know, the one where you do nothing but go out to fancy lunches and get hammered with clients all the time), than the CS grad which most HR people assume (incorrectly) directly translates to "borderline autistic". BTW, I definitely do not mean to bash the engineering jobs. I dreaded the thought of a typical "humanities" career path after double majoring in Poli Sci and Philosophy, and ended up in software engineering. Clearly not every employer thought it was worthless...

Re:Bullshit

[PCM2]

Or

"You didn't really get an education unless you completed a full degree program."

In the U.S., associate degrees are generally two-year college degrees. They are NOT the equivalent of a university degree. They are the kind of degrees you get if you want to go into specialized professions, like being a lab assistant, or some types of nursing (though many hospitals now require four-year degrees), and various other things.

Don't get me wrong, it can't hurt you to get an associate degree. But an associate degree is not generally what most employers want to see when they're looking at your CV.

Re:Bullshit

[PCM2]

Don't know about that. I dropped out of an associate's degree program, so don't have any degree, and my career is doing just fine. There are plenty of people with the same amount of experience and a bachelor's who are well below me on the career ladder.

There are always exceptions to the rule ... and I'm not even sure I agree that it's a "rule" that you need a degree.

But, not having a degree myself, I can say that it does make things harder for you in some ways. You're going to have to struggle a bit. Your career might progress more slowly than if you had a degree. But then, on the other hand, college takes at least four years of your life to complete and it can be pretty hard, so isn't it sort of a toss-up?

Maybe the only real rule is that if you want to get anywhere in life, you're going to have to work hard, one way or the other. Some people make the wrong choices and end up doing their hard work on a factory floor.

Re:Bullshit

[Weezul]

Are you familiar with the fact that Georgia Tech costs nothing*?

Imho, American students should simply learn another language like French, German, or Spanish and go study in Europe. Ain't free, but it's crazy cheap compared with most U.S. schools. Also, you might learn how to avoid growing up a fat ass bastard.

* Hope Scholarship Offer valid only for Georgia High School diploma and/or residency holders who maintain at least a 3.0 GPA. Please observe that Georgia Tech does intake selection mostly through weed out courses that take place your freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior year, and has amongst the lowest grade inflation in the country, meaning 3.0s don't grow on trees there.

Re:Bullshit

[jasper160]

We have an English professor as our receptionist. Her own teachers union screwed her when she moved to this state after her husband was transferred. Due to her seniority she must be hired at a certain income level even if she wants to be a janitor in the education system of this state. Luckily she can type, make coffee, and answer the phone.

Re:Bullshit

[ByOhTek]

notice the 'quick' part, 30 years isn't quick.

Also, I said 'tends to' not 'always', so a sample size of one doesn't really even come close to countering what I'm saying.

Re:Bullshit

[ByOhTek]

What part of 'tends to' was confusing?

Re:Bullshit

[jasper160]

Don't know about that. I dropped out of an associate's degree program, so don't have any degree, and my career is doing just fine. There are plenty of people with the same amount of experience and a bachelor's who are well below me on the career ladder.

Of course, 30 years of experience means it was a different game when I was getting started than it is today, a good degree might well be a necessity if you don't have experience. But in my 30 years and 8 jobs in IT, my education, or lack thereof, has only been brought up once, and I got a job offer from them anyway. (And, yes, every job I've had listed "Bachelor's Degree" as a requirement. It never really matters if you have a solid track record.)

Same here. I will never make CIO or upper management but I really don't want to either. They don't make much more than I do and their work load consists mainly of meetings, powerpoint, and a Dilbert like lifestyle.

Re:Bullshit

[CaptainNerdCave]

I don't mean for it to appear "whoosh-like", but I found a BA in Philosophy to be something that was fairly useful.

Much like high school calculus and chemistry don't teach anything about calculus or chemistry, but give you tools to solve problems; philosophy equips you with the ability to quickly wrap your head around things that you don't already know much about, and appreciate your own shortcomings enough to realize that you can learn something from almost everything.

Re:Bullshit

[geekoid]

Wrong.
You can get one through a vocational school but they are also part of university programs as well. Also, there are different types of associate degrees.

Re:Bullshit

[geekoid]

The HOPE scholarship is a scholarship for people who would have likely gone on to college anyways.

Where is the scholarship for repletion who happened to have fucked up once? or take into account that person was also supporting a family and an alcoholic mother?

Another divide to prevent people from getting out of a low income hard life.
How about a universal education program?

Re:Bullshit

[jimbolauski]

Here come the degree snobs. "You didn't really get an education unless you paid a fortune for it, like me."

Not snobs, just people that realize that they would not be as successful today as they would be without their bachelors degree or higher. On top of that many of the people that visit this site have engineering or science degrees and they know there is absolutely no way that a 2 year program could teach them everything they need in their current position. Associates degrees fall in between liberal arts degrees and science and engineering degrees in terms of actual probability of success in life.

Re:Bullshit

[The Dancing Panda]

And they are all completely useless, except for as transfer credits to a 4 year university.

Re:Bullshit

[thomasw_lrd]

How bout an MBA from Phoenix Online?

Re:Bullshit

[EricWright]

A friend of mine is having his PhD entirely footed by the university he's performing research work at. How sweet it can be!

That's how I did mine ... combination of TA and RA = no grad school debt plus ~$1500-1800/mo income (back in the mid-late 90s) to scrape by on.

Re:Bullshit

[Marc_Hawke]

I did the same thing, but TWO degrees, (my wife and mine, both on one income.) Now I was going to a State University and not some fancy place that gets a lot of press, but still I've never understood why my experience was so much different from all the stories that you hear, (and headlines like this.)

Re:Bullshit

[jimbolauski]

In today climate if you were just starting out with no degree do you think you would even be considered for an entry level position when you would be competing with people that had a bachelors. It's not that you can't succeed without a formal education there is just a higher probability that you will succeed with one.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

What field are you in? I'm just curious.

But here's my 2 cents:
My experience with artists (liberal arts) has been dismal. I'm trying to recruit them for our art dept. and those who come from community college/ associates/ self-taught has been bad. I mean, they can't draw basic human anatomy, or know the basic technical terminology for fonts. The portfolios look like it was something from the early '90s or cobbled from high school due to an overly supportive art teacher. They're visually busy and - I kid you not - some of them used comic sans and lens flare in a non-ironic way.

The more "educated" artists I've interviewed, have a better sense of style, lighting, direction, and it goes without saying that they know all the Adobe tools. I only had 1 applicant from a mid-tier school who met those requirements, but unfortunately he didn't have a work visa. The most important thing I've found with these kids is a sense of urgency - motivation.

In the end I hired the associate degree person, and I admit it was a mistake in hindsight. There was a complete lack of motivation. It was just job to this individual no matter how hard I mentored, tutored, or tried to inspire. When he clocked out, his mind checked out. A couple of months later, tired of fixing his screw ups, I fired him. It was costing us more to keep him around than what he was outputting.

So no, you don't need to be an expert in art theory or history, but knowing the difference between art deco or bauhaus style should be something you should be able to google yourself instead of waiting for me to explain. Or more importantly, being able to explain and sell the branding campaign to the client by having that theoretical background (also known as, selling bullshit). But to be fair, I don't expect the entry-level designer to be able to be a salesman.

I agree that you don't need a college degree for my field, but I haven't met any artist who are practically self-taught who had any motivation to work. For those who had some talent, they picked art because it was easy and thought they could "cruise-by" at work just as they did in school. And those jerks give a bad rap for everyone else.

Re:Bullshit

[rubycodez]

why not, you can go on to a specialized Bachelors degrees. Even with a bachelors in the liberal arts or humanities there are many specialized graduate programs one can enter, including some major med schools

Re:Bullshit

[hackula]

I don't see how that is relevant. There are COBOL programmers out there with 40 years of experience who cannot get hired as a junior programmer these days. Clearly you can get screwed in any career. Her issue was not that she has a degree in English, but that she got burned by a dysfunctional workplace. Since we are talking about degrees though, we are really talking about people closer to the beginning of their careers anyway. Someone with an English degree has loads of possible routes, if they are proactive about it.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like an excuse to me. Teacher unions are entirely optional, besides there are private colleges everywhere if the public colleges truly aren't allowed to hire outside an enforced pay ladder.

Re:Bullshit

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I participated in a contest held annually in Phoenix called the Avnet Tech Games. In the event I was doing, which included not only practical lab work, but also a written test, the community college students scored 90% and above. The university students were all below 70%.

It only makes sense too when you think about it. Universities focus on the theoretical while community colleges focus on the practical. That, and community college teachers are there to teach, and genuinely care for the success of the students. Most university professors on the other hand are there to do research, and have upwards of 300 students to a class.

I've mentioned on slashdot before about how I have zero debt and the benefits of community college, and the replies I often get are from people with terrible grammar (I've only taken one English class before, by the way) who tell me that I got a cheap education because community college sucks, though they can never offer any reason why they say that. I mean if it was Harvard or MIT, sure, but most public universities that most people attend aren't anything special, yet are still expensive.

Re:Bullshit

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Well, it wouldn't be entirely incorrect in my case. The key is to impress the hell out of somebody in a high place. Even if they themselves don't hire you, word tends to get around.

Re:Bullshit

[erice]

In 30 years it has changed dramatically. Given how common degrees are, many HR departments will simply filter out any resumes that do not have one.

Certainly. But a budget associates degree won't help if the next filter is for a bachelors or masters from a well known school.

Re:Bullshit

[ArhcAngel]

I actually got that from someone who HAS a BA in Philosophy. He has been a profound influence on me and I deeply respect him.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

philosophy equips you with the ability to quickly wrap your head around things that you don't already know much about, and appreciate your own shortcomings enough to realize that you can learn something from almost everything.

Yes, but you get all that from an engineering degree as well and are employable as a handy bonus.

Re:Bullshit

[udachny]

you will know "why".

- not really. But you'll be able to appreciate many of the reasons that stand in your way of knowing 'why'.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

The unemployment rate for PhDs in several science fields is below 1% typically, and even in recent hard times never went much about 2-3%.

Re:Bullshit

[icebraining]

No but you DO get what you pay for in life.

Ah, another proud owner of Monster cables!

Re:Bullshit

[swillden]

Where is the scholarship for repletion who happened to have fucked up once? or take into account that person was also supporting a family and an alcoholic mother?

I have a very good friend who got in trouble with the law as a teenager, was basically ordered by the judge to join the Navy at age 17, did three years in the Navy before they "allowed" him to terminate his enlistment early (read: he was such a screwup they didn't want him), then ended up with a couple of felony drug convictions. By the time he got straight, he also had a semi-insane wife and two kids (twin boys), and was working full-time to support them, pay for a mortgage, etc. He took the GED and went to a local four-year community college, where his poor math and English skills put him in remedial courses (which increased his tuition). He continued working, a mixture of full-time and part-time, and supporting his family, while he went to school. Along the way his wife wigged out on him and he ended up alone with his (now three) boys. It took him about seven years, but he finished a BS in pure mathematics with a minor in CS, and was selected as outstanding graduate by the math faculty and strongly encouraged to continue on to get an MS and a PhD. He graduated with less than $4000 in student loans, and never received any scholarship money.

How? He worked hard. That's all.

Personally, I got math and CS degrees from the same four-year college with no debt at all (but without the other challenges he had). I did get academic tuition waivers for two years, based purely on my college GPA -- each year they sorted the applicants by GPA and gave waivers to the top n, so I had to maintain > 3.9 to be sure of getting my waivers, and I joined the US Air Force reserves to get the GI Bill (which I didn't actually need, as it turned out -- that was just spending money), and I worked part-time, first in the library tutoring math and later for the math department, writing math ed software for $7 per hour. By the time I graduated I had a pretty solid resume as well as a degree.

It can be done... lots and lots of people do it. You just have to want it.

Re:Bullshit

[Xacid]

I'm calling bullshit on bullshit. My associates has landed me two decent jobs (sys admin).

To be fair - all my electives were geek classes - like network security and various programming. School is entirely what you make of it. You can float through, get your paper, and learn nothing. Or you can rock the fuck out and learn a lot of cool, useful, shit.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I suppose it is a step toward a Bachelors degree....

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

You do not need to take a philosophy course to learn this, it is called maturity. Reading a book, speaking to someone or just plain ol' listening makes this part of growing up.

Re:Bullshit

[hackula]

I dreaded the thought of a typical "humanities" career path after double majoring in Poli Sci and Philosophy, and ended up in software engineering.

I write/design software in the field of geospatial analytics.

Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[Anonymous Coward]

You might as well have spent the money on hookers and blow. As it is, you've just wasted $3000.

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[cayenne8]

You might as well have spent the money on hookers and blow. As it is, you've just wasted $3000.

Yeah..sadly, I have to agree with you.

This 'degree' on your resume...will likely get your application directly filed in the circular filesystem by the HR person who will rapidly go to the next resume with a more 'real' degree....

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[SomePgmr]

It's may not be worthless.

Some universities will take an associates as part of a transfer compact agreement to knock out the 2 years of bullshit gened's everyone has to take. I don't know that the school he used would qualify.

I have a community college up the street from me that's much larger, nicer, and well funded than many universities in the country, and it starts at about $110 per credit hour. So it's a great way to knock out all the garbage a university makes you do just for added revenue, but on the cheap, with a much higher quality education than you were going to get in a lecture hall of 8,000 sleeping students and a disgruntled professor.

So if he's halfway to a bachelors for $3k...

Just something to consider.

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[jonadab]

It depends.

On the one hand, an Associates Degree by itself is about as useful as a solar panel in northeastern Ohio. It doesn't qualify you for anything that you weren't already qualified for with a high school diploma.

On the other hand, many schools will accept a larger number of (undergrad) credits in transfer if you have an Associates Degree than otherwise. That is, after all, the main purpose of an Associates: to bundle up the two years' worth of gen ed courses you've already taken, from a school that doesn't offer the major you want, so that the school where you want to complete your four-year degree will take most of those credits, allowing you to finish in another two years.

Of course, even with an Associates, the credits you transfer in are still only worthwhile if they count toward any of the requirements for your four-year degree. Many schools are willing to be a little bit flexible with this, though there are usually limits. For example, maybe the school normally requires Western Civ and US History plus one other social studies course, but if you're transferring in an Associates they may decide to accept any eight credits of history and four additional credits of social studies that you happen to have taken.

So an Associates can be useful, e.g. if you live near a community college that offers a halfway decent Associates program. You can knock out a lot of your gen ed *before* going to the better, more expensive four-year college where you intend to complete your degree.

All of this assumes that you are a returning adult student (e.g., someone who went out after high school and got a job to "save up" for college; after several years you have now saved up just about enough to cover your textbooks and maybe the occasional dorm sweatshirt). Anyone who just graduated from high school, with even remotely acceptable grades, is likely to be better off, financially, going straight to the four-year school the very next fall. You can often get a LOT more financial aid that way, and it's typically all renewable, so it will take you through all four years (assuming you keep your grades up and meet whatever extracurricular requirements the school has). Admittedly, this depends somewhat on the school, but your total debt for four years this way can potentially be less than what you would have paid just for the last two years, not even counting anything you had to spend to get the Associates in the first place -- because, transferring in from a community college with an associates, the financial aid department in most cases will basically tell you to see Uncle Stafford and Cousin Perkins. If you're fresh out of high school with reasonable grades, they're far more likely to hand you a package that includes grants and maybe the odd minor scholarship plus a work study option in addition to Stafford loans.

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[cayenne8]

So if he's halfway to a bachelors for $3k...

Oh, if part of a full degree, then I'd agree with you...I was under the impression he was going to try to use this as his sole college credentials for applying for first job 'out of school'......and in that case, IMHO, it is worthless to most HR folks culling resumes.

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[Miamicanes]

> You can knock out a lot of your gen ed *before* going to the better, more expensive four-year college where you intend to complete your degree.

Assuming that you, unlike roughly 97% of your peers, have the *slightest* idea what you actually want to do for the next 40 years when you're 19 or 20. That's the whole problem with the "get your general education credits out of the way" plan of community colleges... by packing all of your "major" courses into two years, and by extension DEFERRING nearly all of them until years 3 and 4, you've raised the stakes considerably, and made changing your mind about your major a much, much more disruptive and expensive process.

If you wait until the fall semester of your third year to take your first real courses in your major, then discover you don't actually LIKE your major after all, you've just *incinerated" at least one semester... maybe two. In contrast, if you've taken the first 4 courses in your major by the middle of your sophomore year, then discover you don't really like it after all, you've only REALLY wasted one or two of those classes, because the others ended up satisfying your general-ed requiremends anyway.

That's why most private colleges and universities encourage you to spread out your general-ed classes, and to begin taking your "major" classes early and often, and why they encourage you to satisfy many of your "general ed" classes with classes that do double-duty as the "intro/survey/101" courses for other majors. They have every incentive to help you graduate in 4 years... they're expensive, they know it, and they know there's a nontrivial chance you might not graduate at all if they seriously derail you. They know that 70% of their students change their majors at least once before year 3, and most of them have had more than a hundred years to refine the formula and get it right.

The generic community-college scenario only really works for two groups of students... those whose only goal is "a degree", regardless of what it might be in, and those for whom community college is a second chance to shine, catch up, and redeem themselves. A student who's already at the top of his high school class and a shoo-in at just about any university is basically just wasting his time, and is actually INCREASING his odds of stumbling and losing his way before graduation.

The fact is, the "2+2" formula just doesn't work for the majority of students.

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[david_thornley]

I'll second that about the courses not being useful.

My son graduated from high school with something over half the credits he needed for graduation. This included a very large chunk of math, and a good deal of science and engineering. (In a decent school system, there's lots of opportunities I never got, provided you have a combination of determination, ability, and wanting to in the first place.) An AA from a community college would be extremely unlikely to be this STEM-heavy.

Now that he's in college, a lot of the credits just aren't working into a degree program. He doesn't have to take any more math unless he wants to be a math major, and not all that many courses for that really, but that's unlikely to shorten his education much. The science and engineering courses aren't consider suitable for the University of Minnesota's College of Science and Engineering. This means that he has to take all his major requirements (unless he switches to math), and that isn't going to happen in two years.

What he mostly got out of it, besides learning a whole lot and gaining confidence in himself, is that he has the course selection priority of a junior, and will get senior's priority from the sophomore year on. The courses also satisfy a few distribution requirements, but those wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Re:Lib Arts Assoc Degree for $3000

[jonadab]

> Assuming that you, unlike roughly 97% of your
> peers, have the *slightest* idea what you actually
> want to do for the next 40 years when you're 19 or 20.

I believe, if you re-read my post, you'll find that I actually said that students fresh out of high school are usually better off going directly to the four-year school in the first place. (Granted, I stated a different reason for this. Your reason is also valid.)

My claim was that an Associates Degree can be useful for a _returning adult_ student, i.e., someone who upon graduating from high school said "I'm DONE with school" and went out and got a job, but then a few years later they started to notice that all they jobs they can get without a college degree are jobs they don't really want. The exciting glamor of raking in the dough hand over fist at $6.50 an hour has begun to pale. These students are frequently not eligible for enough financial aid to make four years at a real liberal arts school (or even a state university) an attractive option, fiscally speaking, and they've had a few years of real-world workforce experience to help them think about what they really want to do with their lives.

I'd hire him

[Captain_Chaos]

I'd hire this guy in a flash. This kind of stunt shows a level of creativity, commitment and out of the box thinking that's worth more than any college degree.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

But he's only got a liberal arts degree!

All kidding aside, I hope he takes this opportunity to start a career fast. Right now he can point to this and say "Look how eager I was to get into the real world and start working - here's a story about it" in interviews, but unless he supplements it with work it might start looking shaky.

Re:I'd hire him

[msauve]

I wouldn't consider him for an instant. This just demonstrates poor critical reasoning, valuing a piece of paper acquired by any means over actual subject matter knowledge.

Re:I'd hire him

[ackthpt]

I'd hire this guy in a flash. This kind of stunt shows a level of creativity, commitment and out of the box thinking that's worth more than any college degree.

Careful ... that's how Microsoft got started.

Re:I'd hire him

[Sperbels]

The doesn't demonstrate poor critical reasoning. That demonstrates an understanding of the reality of our society...that your resume is thrown away unless it has a degree on it.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, if he were truly eager, he'd take a risk, borrow money from his parents and start a business!

That's the Romneyway.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

While the "hack" value of this is interesting and speaks of his creativity, it doesn't look good from a critical thinking/planning point of view. I checked some local colleges and the cost of getting the degree is approximately $3,000 -- the same cost as what he paid. So basically he did a lot of extra work and tried to play the system in order to accomplish the same thing if he'd just taken the course. Do you really want to hire someone who insists on doing things the hard, time consuming way?

Re:I'd hire him

[ByOhTek]

Yeah. That degree itself doesn't say squat, how he got it shows cleverness and a desire to put effort into a goal, as well as a drive to cost effectiveness.

Re:I'd hire him

[bluefoxlucid]

I never really got an education, seeing as I was born an orphan and went to art college...

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? He realized for the get-go that unless you know someone important, most employers require a stupid piece of paper for you to even be considered worth talking to. While I don't know much about this guy, when you consider the dedication, commitment, and discipline it took to complete this project, he probably already acquired the skills he needed to do his desired job from other projects. After all, who wouldn't want to get their desired job without going into massive debt?

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true. I don't have a degree, and I have no problem getting interviews, offers, and jobs. Including an offer that I turned down 2 weeks ago. This company "requires" a degree, and routinely appears on both "Top XX Most Difficult Places to Get Hired" and "Top XX Best Places to Work" type lists.

Yes, their interview process was brutal. Yes, the job listing had "Bachelor's Degree" as an absolute requirement.

Yes, I got a job offer anyway with nothing but my diploma from a small town high school (and 20 years of solid experience).

Re:I'd hire him

[AshtangiMan]

Have things changed so much in education that this is astounding? I went to va tech (in state) and paid for it and living out of summer job cash as did most of the other engineering students with whom I attended in the late eighties (cool story bro) (tuition was like $2500 per year iirc). Even if the tuition costs have tripled I can't imagine that it's that hard to live of the economy or summer in more lucrative places to save ahead. Va tech at the time was a top twenty overall engineering school .... Unm now is not more expensive than that for undergrad so if you go to public in state schools it's easy and cheap to get bs degrees from four year colleges in the us (and yes, it's hard not to see that and chuckle). With any of those programs you get out of it what you put in to it, as with any degree. I am not promoting four year degrees as necessary or good value inherently, but do intend to compare $3000 for an associate's degree with $10000 for a BS as in favor of the BS for students wanting to be in technical fields and pursue knowledge as sport.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully I do not and will never work with or for you. Your inability to see the skill, research and planning involved to pull this together is shameful.

Re:I'd hire him

[jythie]

Not only that, but if this school has such lax requirements regarding people having to take classes under its control... I suspect that even though it has accreditation it is probably one warning flags that local managers watch for. They sound pretty sketchy, and sketchy places have a habit of giving out degrees that are rather suspect.

Re:I'd hire him

[Mephistophocles]

...valuing a piece of paper acquired by any means over actual subject matter knowledge

Oh wait - you mean, like 99.9% of employers and the entire US "higher-learning" education system? It's not him at all that has the problem - quite the opposite, in fact. Sounds like he knows exactly what the piece of paper is worth, and just decided it wasn't worth signing over his arm and leg to get something that worthless. The only points I take issue with are the assumption that one needs a degree to get ahead in life (I don't have one and am doing just fine, thank you - and I'm not an anomaly in my field), and the small quibble that he probably could have gotten a straight-up associates from a community college for about the same money.

Re:I'd hire him

[PCM2]

I never really got an education, seeing as I was born an orphan and went to art college...

BORN an orphan? Now there's a disgusting image...

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

... and without your "20 years of solid experience" you'd have never heard from them, ever.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. That degree itself doesn't say squat, how he got it shows cleverness and a desire to put effort into a goal, as well as a drive to cost effectiveness.

Bingo. Proven effort towards a goal with significant constraints. That's more than I ever did in college and graduate school (unless making it home from the pub counts).

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, even going to a decent but not well known school in an out of the way area that has a very low cost of living, you are looking at $10,000 a year for tuition, books, and living expenses. And that is with in-state tuition. Out of state is closer to $20,000 a year. Shoot, some schools have fees each semester over $1000 for things like state of the art gyms that are used by a fraction of the students (mostly athletes) but are required of every student. To be fair, the trade off of the fees is that the university can provide the option to use things like the gym for no additional costs, but there is no option for reducing the fees by not using the services.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I'd much rather have someone this creative than someone who doesn't fuck around and gets the same job done without thinking doing things the roundabout way makes him special. This is the kind of guy who rewrites the same functionality of existing APIs because hey, his will be better by some metric that doesn't exist (i.e., not in terms of functionality, ease of use, or reliability.)

Re:I'd hire him

[s73v3r]

Good for you and your pointless anecdotes. I'd like to see actual data on who has it easier, though. And how many people who don't have degrees find it "easy" to get top offers.

Re:I'd hire him

[aicrules]

Yeah he proved he can used a technicality to appear to have accomplished a goal. So if you don't tell him in exquisite detail what you need him to do, he'll spend a bunch of time figuring out the cheapest way to have "done" what you asked for, but possibly not actually accomplish what you wanted.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

He could always just lie about having a degree - surely that would demonstrate an even better understanding of the realities of our society.
Or maybe a degree is supposed to indicate something beyond mere fungible "academic credit".

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what that "actual data" would be? Simply a larger collection of "pointless anecdotes".

Re:I'd hire him

[geekoid]

Paul Allen?
Richard Branson?
Dean Kamen?

Re:I'd hire him

[TheCarp]

> Do you really want to hire someone who insists on doing things the hard, time consuming way?

Depends whether there is a good reason for it or not. The article, unless it is longer than what I saw, it looks like just a blurb to me, doesn't go into what the exact classes were, or why he chose them.

Did he go to some classes, then realize that he could transfer credits? Are the courses, in and of themselves, going to be useful? I mean, its awesome to put the degree on the resume, what if he can put the degree...and list some of the individual classes too...since they are relevant....if he can do that, then choosing classes that allow him to double dip his resume.... very very smart.

If he just took different classes, and wound up with the same price tag, over a longer time, then I totally agree with you. However, since he got to choose his classes, I would like to think he was smart enough to choose them wisely and double up his benefits.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, god forbid you get someone smart enough to turn your company into something as successful as Microsoft. Heaven forbid that your company become one of the most successful and lucrative ones on earth.

Boy, that'd sure be a terrible fate to avoid. Thanks for the unbelievably helpful tip there... never hire anyone who could potentially turn your place into a multi-billion dollar company renowned for decades the world over, and make you one of the richest men on the entire planet.

Yep, best not hire this guy, ackthpt says it's a bad move.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? To me it shows some guy who's just plain lazy. I graduated in 2006 with a BS in electrical engneering without taking out any student loans. I did it by working at times, 3 jobs, while going to school full time, and living at home, because I couldn't afford to live elsewhere while going to school with the amount I was making. It meant I had to go to a Univeristy close to home, but oh well. No, my parents did not pay for it, they couldn't afford to send me to school. I sent my self.

This whole thing exemplifies what pisses me off about people. It's not impossible to do something like go to school without incurring debt, you just have to be willing to work. And if you aren't willing to work, then don't come bitching to me about how much debt you're in, and I don't want to hire you, because you're lazy.

Re:I'd hire him

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I wouldn't mind starting a multi-billion dollar a year company. Though I would be careful about sticking a fat salesman in the CEO spot.

Re:I'd hire him

[dkleinsc]

If you think that's disgusting, you should see the results of the fights he had with his younger brother!

Re:I'd hire him

[camperdave]

Mothers die during childbirth all the time, even single mothers. There's no reason why he couldn't have been born an orphan.

However, the Art College thing is entirely his fault.

Re:I'd hire him

[fredprado]

Sure, but a large enough collection of them at least has some meaning.

Re:I'd hire him

[ericloewe]

To be fair, he makes a hell of a salesman. People would buy anything advertised by him Windows 1.0 style, not because they're convinced, but because they'll never get that off their minds.

Re:I'd hire him

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I'm sure he is, but a lot of big tech companies have declined once they replaced their retiring tech savvy CEO with a salesman. Apple did it once, and they may very well do it again. Yahoo, Hewlette Packard, Xerox...

Re:I'd hire him

[ImprovOmega]

Luckily this is on the decline, though since 2000 it's bubbled up a bit. Still, going from 1 in 100 (!!!!!!!!!) to 1-2 in 10,000 is pretty decent.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Dave Lister, is that you?

Re:I'd hire him

[camperdave]

I imagine the rate is going up among Wealthy North Americans because they are going through with riskier pregnancies (getting pregnant later in life, fertilization regimens, embryo implantation, etc) that the poorer nations could not afford, or would have the medical know-how to perform.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, uh, a quick google search says Virginia Tech hasn't tripled in cost, more like 11x as much [including room and board in the dorms]

http://www.admiss.vt.edu/cost/

17,919 for anyone too lazy to click the link. Without any financial aid, of course. I think a very small percentage of colleges in the entire country are under $2500 per year for a full course load these days, including community colleges. My local community colleges are in the $100/credit range, x 16 credits per semester is $3200 for tuition fees alone. Not to mention books, or any other supplies needed. And let's not pretend VT is the same caliber of education as your local community college.

Making this argument more complicated is inflation, of course. $2500 in 1985 dollars is more like $5200 in in 2011 dollars, according to yet another quick google search. Again the caliber of education is not even close though, but brings your tuition tripling estimate more in line with real world costs. Doesn't change the fact that, without any financial aid, an undergrad degree from VT, with instate tuition, is now somewhere in the neighborhood of 80k [130k out of state], including books and other supplies as necessary.

College is damn expensive

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Clever! Now, quickly, list all of the people who tried and failed without them. I'll wait, but you'll be typing for a few years. You may never stop typing.;

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like what you need is a marketer. Sounds like what this guy is, is a marketer. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you aren't willing to work, then don't come bitching to me about how much debt you're in, and I don't want to hire you, because you're lazy.

That's OK, I wouldn't want to work for you, because you're an opinionated fool.

What you've amusingly failed to take into account is that you were lucky enough to find three jobs you could work while studying. Did it occur to you that those are three jobs that are no longer available to other people to work while studying? There aren't a limitless number of jobs, otherwise jobs would pay what the worker commanded, not what the business offered.

You also need to take into account that you were lucky enough to be able to work the three jobs while studying. Not everyone can. My learning disability requires about three times the number of hours to master the same material (high I.Q., very poor input). I come out with a mastery of the material not demonstrated by others, plus a grasp of the applications of it.

Oh, that, and debt. There aren't too many jobs that'll let you work 40 hours, study 120 hours, and sleep 56 hours a week.

Re:I'd hire him

[jpate]

As the saying goes, "the plural of anecdote is not data." Anecdotes by their nature are subject to sampling bias: an anecdote is not brought up unless it is somehow interesting. Taking a larger sample of anecdotes just inflates the sampling bias. You need to make sure your observations are representative, typically through taking a random sample or running a controlled experiment, to call it "data."

Re:I'd hire him

[Half-pint HAL]

Those three didn't "get top offers", they founded businesses and invented stuff.

Paul Allen and Dean Kamen were on specific courses of study, and developed things in that field. Richard Linder's patchwork degree is the exact opposite of these guys: they focused on a field, and stuff the degree. He focused on a degree, and stuff the field.

Allen was lucky in that demand for programmers was vastly outstripping supply at the time, and I'm sure there are plenty of other individuals dropped out of university to take up programming jobs (in fact, stories like that convinced a lot of us to take up computer degrees in the 90s, and one of my classmates had to do a partial resit of one year, got work, resat the failed module but never went back), but that was unique to the computer field, and it's now much, much harder to do as there are plenty of

Kamen and Allen wouldn't have gotten anywhere if they hadn't started on a course of in-depth study of their chosen field.

Re:I'd hire him

[Half-pint HAL]

For a couple of years, I'm sure there'll be plenty of employers who do value this as it shows "initiative, drive and determination", but the more it's pushed by the netniks, the more it'll lose its impact before finally being seen for what it is: a non-degree. A degree has to show depth, which is why associate degrees are only currently considered an academic "stepping stone", and not a full degree. A hacky degree like this is even less impressive than a community college associate degree, once you take away the novelty factor and the "initiative" angle.

Re:I'd hire him

[Half-pint HAL]

Worse -- it appears he managed to find 18 credits of free stuff that needed accreditation by his local community college anyway. He then got another 43 credits that he presumably paid for. So he had around 30% of the degree for free. If he'd just transfered in the free stuff and then continued with the college that accepted it, he could probably have got his degree for less -- and it wouldn't be from Excelsior College. I know the name, and I'm not even from the US. If a guy from Scotland has heard of it, that means it's pretty famous, which in this case isn't a good thing. It doesn't have a great reputation....

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Test tube babies are born every day.

Re:I'd hire him

[tehcyder]

However, the Art College thing is entirely his fault.

To be fair, he probably went to a lot more parties, took a lot more drugs and had sex with a lot more people than most STEM students. It depends on your priorities in life. In the battles of Fun versus Success, I know which one I've always gone for...

Re:I'd hire him

[baubo]

"They sound pretty sketchy..." The Statement of Accreditation Status report from the Middle States Commission on Higher Education for Excelsior College (accrediting body) is here: http://www.msche.org/documents/SAS/170/Statement%20of%20Accreditation%20Status.htm The list of institutions accredited by Middle States is here: http://www.msche.org/institutions_directory.asp I won't bother to link the school's own statement on how they assess prior learning and consolidate it into a degree, but that's on Excelsior's website. The stated aim of the programs is to help adult, mid-career students finish their degrees.

Re:I'd hire him

[Anonymous Coward]

2500 per year.... they've not so much tripled as easily 10 times that

Re:I'd hire him

[JimFive]

I went to Michigan Tech about the same time for about the same cost and it was 3x10 week quarters a year. Current annual tuition is over $13,000 now and 2x16 week semesters, room and board hasn't gone up quite as much and is ~$9,000 a year where it used to be about $3,000.

For a better comparison, minimum wage in 1990 was 4.25/hour, tuition was 2500 or about 15 weeks of full time work. Now minimum wage is $7.25/hour, tuition is 13,000 or about 45 weeks of full time work.

So yes, in 1987 you could work minimum wage for the summer and cover tuition and work part time during the school year to cover your expenses. Now you have to work full time all year just to cover tuition.
--
JimFive

Re:I'd hire him

[AshtangiMan]

Interesting. My jobs then paid twice minimum wage. At Michigan tech now you could make it working at twice min wage, but yes it's harder. There are states where school is cheaper than that though. of course this doesn't change the point that i may not be a good value exchange. But I think it's better and just as manageable to get the 4 year ba than the 1 or 2 year associates. Perhaps a combo is the best way ...

Sounds like it's worth it

[phantomfive]

Sounds like it's worth as much as a typical associates degree. We're not exactly setting the bar high, here....

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[i kan reed]

Contempt for associates degrees is part of the mechanics that drive up the cost of college degrees. If you're ever in a hiring role, I hope you'll reconsider your position. With the huge percentage of people going to a four year school and simply not caring about academics, the distinction of a BA doesn't seem like it holds much more(if any) value than an associates.

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[dcollins]

Contempt for bachelors degrees is part of the mechanics that drive up the cost of college degrees. The fact that bachelors are the new high school diploma is why so many people now need a Master's to distinguish themselves in any way.

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[aicrules]

When McDonald's starts rejecting midnight drive-through shiftworkers because they don't have PhD, then I'll be concerned :)

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you speak Spanish as your primary language and English is about 4 words, Mc'ds will not hire you, ever been to one and speak with anyone...

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

In another ten years you'll need a bachelors in Retail Science to bag groceries.

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

What an AA is. By me.

An AA degree is nothing more than a place-holder, a chad to be punched, a hole dug in the earth without a cornerstone or even an architect's plan. An AA degree can be the first step in getting a higher degree but is nearly useless as a degree in itself. When you receive an AA degree you have done no work in a specific narrow field, you have merely stepped through a broad and shallow pool of knowledge in order to get a feel for the dizzying breadth of knowledge available to the common, educated person.

When you receive an AA it is an agreement with education that says "I will continue until I know a lot about one thing". Afterwards you will enroll in courses towards your B.A. or B.S. and begin to narrow your focus. From there, if you decide to continue, you narrow your focus even more. But now, at the Master level you dive down into the depth of one field and let everything else fade away. If you then go for your Phd., the goal becomes intimate knowledge of your field from the very basics all the way to the most up-to-date and detailed sub-analysis of the latest facts.

So, no. Contempt for an AA degree does ot simply drive up the cost of college degrees. Having an AA degree proves nothing more than the person once expressed an interest in higher education. I am very sorry if you are one of those people who have been deluded into believing otherwise. If you are, however, please return to school and finish. It is worth it.

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Associate's degrees are provided by any community college. They consist of the lower-division requirements for a bachelor's degree. Lower-division courses are "survey level", broad brush-stroke introductions to the subject. The American education system expects a common "core curriculum" of foundational classes across the humanities and sciences, which are the lower-division requirements. The upper-division requirements, which are the curriculum for the traditional 3rd and 4th year of a bachelor's degree program, involve higher-level thinking and deeper engagement with the material.

When I was going to community college in California in the late 90s, tuition was $11 per unit. I think you needed 120 units to graduate. (12 was the minimum per semester to be considered a full-time student.) It's more expensive now, and I think that's a shame.

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[phantomfive]

Thanks, I have been in a hiring role, and I only take into account ability, and willingness to work even when things get hard.

Re:Sounds like it's worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because 90% of high school students are likely idiots doesn't mean they all are.

Just because 70% of associate degree earners are idiots doesn't mean they all are.

Just because 50% of bachelor degree earners are idiots doesn't mean they all are.

While the above is (more or less?) true, it does only one thing: show you the base amount of what it has been proven the person can do. It doesn't mean that an AA degree holder won't go on to get a doctorate in astrophysics. It doesn't really mean much of anything at all, aside from the person having that degree.

(That said, associate degree holders are mostly self-selecting under achievers and "nontraditional students"/mothers who don't have the time for a full 4 year degree.)

Impossible?

[ComfortablyAmbiguous]

I struggle with this concept of it being impossible to get an education without taking on student debt. My wife and I finished four year degrees (Engineering and PolySci) and she did law school at an Ivy league with a total of 5,000 in debt. Neither set of parents paid for anything in any significant way. We got together after undergraduate and I had a real job that paid for law school for her, but otherwise it was pretty self supporting. Lots of work was required, and probably less fun, but it is possible.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

I struggle with this concept of it being impossible to get an education without taking on student debt. My wife and I finished four year degrees (Engineering and PolySci) and she did law school at an Ivy league with a total of 5,000 in debt. Neither set of parents paid for anything in any significant way. We got together after undergraduate and I had a real job that paid for law school for her, but otherwise it was pretty self supporting.

Lots of work was required, and probably less fun, but it is possible.

Why do all that when you can just sell your soul into debt? It's easier, you get to party more, and you get to cry about it and try to steer public policy towards debt forgiveness because "poor us we jsut wanted to bbe students"

I got a 4 year degree from a non-fancy school, paid my way through, didn't do spring break trips, didn't pay into a fraternity, lived off-campus in a fairly priced location instead of paying inflated on-campus housing, bought my books second hand, and worked while studying. All without debt or mommy & daddy.

Re:Impossible?

[h4rr4r]

How many years ago was that?

Even when I went to college the yearly cost exceeded what someone making minimum wage or near it would have for a gross income. Never mind that you also have to eat.

Re:Impossible?

[TheNinjaroach]

law school at an Ivy league with a total of 5,000 in debt.

Um, Ivy League and other high-end private universities offer insane amounts of tuition assistance to any and all students who manage to get accepted. You don't make it into the Ivy League and leave buried in debt. You're either super-wealthy when you go in, or you're one of the very rare public high school graduates who made the cut and received heavy amounts of financial aid in return.

Re:Impossible?

[NicBenjamin]

There are a couple possibilities here.

1) You guys really worked the financial aid system. All the Ivies have excellent financial aid systems. They pride themselves on never losing a kid due to his inability to pay, and they've got the brand-name to charge scions of the Kennedy clan enough to cover their own education, plus a full scholarship for some other kid, plus the staff to to teach a bunch of 18-year-olds who suck at paperwork how to apply for said scholarships. They also have large endowments.

Paradoxically this means that kids who actually look for cheap options in schools tend to screw themselves. The place that only charges $8k a year cannot cut it's prices for you no matter how poor you are. And it can't can;t afford a guy whose entire job is to scour the student records for kids who qualify for the Left-Handed Redhead Scholarship.

2) This happened more then a decade ago.

3) You had really, really, really cushy jobs in college. Base cost for the Ivies is currently $30-$40k. That $30k does not include room and board, and if you're earning the cash yourselves you had to pay income tax on it. So you had to have a part-time job in the $50-$60k range.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't speak for the original poster, but I did something similar only 5 years ago. It wasn't an Ivy league school, but was a high end technical school that covered a lot of the tuition with their own grants (not digging out random scholarships), so your first point is still true in a broader sense. They didn't quite cover it all, but I was able to cover the rest with a $5-10k job over the summer which doubled as giving experience in the field I wanted to go into.

Re:Impossible?

[HornWumpus]

On a college campus and you can't find a better gig then minimum wage?

Seriously?

Start a birth control delivery service. 30 minutes or it's free. All you need is a phone, inventory and an unusual sleep pattern.

Sell pot. Make fake IDs. Start an underground brewpub. Buy an old slushy machine and rent it out for parties (get deposits). Not your job to keep tequila out of it.

A very large percentage of college kids are suburban rich kids following a script provided by the rents. They are often flush with cash and short on sense. Take them for all they are worth before they flunk out. It's a life habit that will serve you well.

Re:Impossible?

[s73v3r]

How long ago was that? And how work intensive was your degree? There are a lot of degrees that require a huge amount of work, meaning that it's much harder to find time for a job. And if you're going to try and get more out of college, by joining an extra-curricular academic organization, then forget it.

Re:Impossible?

[Rockoon]

Even when I went to college the yearly cost exceeded what someone making minimum wage or near it would have for a gross income.

Why is minimum wage part of your consideration here? Anyone that doesnt have a BAD work history (not the same as NO work history) and no criminal record can typically get quite a bit more than minimum wage in the service industry with no prior experience as long as they have a high school diploma or a GED. Granted we are in a recession right now, and the jobs in question wont be in your chosen field, but that doesnt defeat the point.

Minimum wage is for suckers and people that screwed up their lives.

Re:Impossible?

[hackula]

I did it and graduated in 2010.

Who says you have to make minimum wage? Get a job as an RA. Free rent and several dollars above minimum wage. Hall Directors often get free rent, ok pay, AND free/reduced tuition. If you are capable of succeeding in school, but not capable of earning above minimum wage, then you need to find a good book on negotiation and/or marketing yourself, because that is a problem that will not go away upon graduation. Also, there are loads of other jobs above minimum wage open in every single college town I can think of. Coffee shops are always above minimum wage (employers are required to pay at least that much, plus you get tips). Colleges have book stores, convenience stores, and alumni call centers. I would hope someone in school could get through an interview at a grocery store. Even the baggers make over min wage. Most people should even be able to land some sort of management role, which could be double or triple min wage. Every college has bars nearby and they typically have loads of business. Bartenders can make well more than many full time office workers. Mow 10 lawns a week. The going rate in my area is $60 per lawn. That is $2400 /month. Pick up web design freelance work. The going rate here for a noob is ~$60/hr. Do an internship in your field of interest. If that does not pay above min wage, you might want to consider something else. I did an internship one summer, then asked if I could continue through the school year at 20 hours/week. They were happy to have an enthusiastic and cheap software engineer, and I was happy to make more money than any of my friends.

Sure, getting through on 7k per year is going to be impossible. Getting through on 20k though? You should be able to make that work pretty easily.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

A very large percentage of college kids are suburban rich kids following a script provided by the rents. They are often flush with cash and short on sense.

That depends on the college.

Re:Impossible?

[h4rr4r]

20k/year is about what tuition was.

Re:Impossible?

[h4rr4r]

Please explain how that works out. If you work 40 hours a week you can't really go to college unless it is a joke school. Even then at $10/hour you would spend 100% of that on tuition and not be able to eat.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree. Some degrees are not nearly as much work as others. The week before finals, a nice chunk of the students would attend parties. I always wondered how the hell they had time for that. Those in my department were almost always busy. It was pretty much a guarantee that a nice chunk of us would pull all-nighters between finishing up projects and studying for the following weeks finals. During my senior year, I pulled two all-nighters in a row between Compilers and AI. Before you say that it was due to poor planning, I want you to now that I had the same teacher for both classes and he was known for piling on the work. No one in the whole class was able to build a fully functioning compiler in the time allotted. He didn't get through everything he wanted so he shoved a couple weeks of vigorous work on us but gave us less than a week to complete it. He always gave out homework like it was your only class.

Re:Impossible?

[Rockoon]

So you upgraded minimum wage to $10/hour, as if you are making a point?

While you are pulling numbers out of your ass, why not at least look at real ones?

The lowest sub-categorized figures here as of Nov 2012 is $13.38/hour, the next lowest is $16.40/hour, and the 3rd from the bottom is $20.85/hour. These are "Leisure and Hospitality", "Retail Trade", and "Other Services" in that order. Above those are all forms of manufacturing, where the lowest average is $21.86.

People who make $10 an hour, just like the people who make minimum wage, are suckers and people that screwed up their lives.

Is it really so hard for you people to not pull demonstrably insane numbers out of your ass while you are trying to justify your preconceived notions?

Re:Impossible?

[Jhon]

It depends on where you live and how you live. I did that myself on ~$6.50/hour (1980s) and rented a cheap room (and for a few months was actually 'homeless' (lived in my truck*, got a $29.00 motel room once a week and had a locker at school where I kept most of my stuff)). The homeless part was because I made the mistake of leaving my books in my truck (which were stolen) and I needed to re-purchase those. I backed out of my apartment rather than risk getting evicted. I eventually found a converted garage I rented (1/3rd the price of my apartment) and ended up with spending money, too!

I also did that in Los Angeles. They weren't "good" years, but getting out of school with no debt hanging over my head was worth it.

Top Romen will be your friend.

*Note: a beat up old mini-truck (4 cyl) I know how to fix. Still have it, too after 20+ years. My wife hates it (heh)).

Re:Impossible?

[h4rr4r]

Because at the time that would have been a hell of a wage. $10/hour is still pretty decent in some parts of this country.

We are talking about a college student, which means young inexperienced and unlikely to have any real skills.

Those are averages, let see median numbers.

Re:Impossible?

[h4rr4r]

How you live?

When the cost of college exceeds your gross income how do you not end up with loans?

I took loans and have paid them off, but comparing to your 1980s experience is a joke. Tuition costs have gone up far faster than inflation.

Re:Impossible?

[Jhon]

"When the cost of college exceeds your gross income how do you not end up with loans?"

How is this possible working 40 hours a week? Go to state college. The local CSU runs about $6500 per year. Add another $2k for books and are still well under "gross income" at even minimum wage. Share a studio for $350/mo and eat cheap. Get your first two years out of the way at the local CC for much less and save so you have extra money when you hit years 3-4. This is not rocket science.

My wife did this -- and did post grad at USC (in a program that didn't cost her a thing). Her brother did the same and did post-grad at Howard in DC and is now a dentist (although, he took loans for that, but nothing gut-retching and certainly affordable based on the LOW estimates of his expected income (which he dramatically exceeds)).

And *IF* someone is going to take loans to go to school, at LEAST let them do a BIT of research as to what their expected income would be and how employable they would be.

Re:Impossible?

[Jhon]

Just a note: I have a son and daughter both less than 10 years away from entering college. I've already looked at their options and I'm aware of what's do-able based on what my wife and I have done.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are absolutely right on the money. Selling pot and making IDs is what provided me with the means to graduate from a private school that would have cost $200K with only $20K in debt.

Risk management is how to play the game and your position on the chess board is more about who you know than your moves.

Seriously, If I would have done it all again, I would have gone with a local CC and then a jaunt to state school. The lifestyle nearly killed me more than once and I am still paying a karma debt.

Not to mention that I am banned from Canada.
Toot! Toot!

Re:Impossible?

[ComfortablyAmbiguous]

Not exactly true of the professional degrees. Especially in those days there was basically no financial assistance for Law or MBA programs.

Re:Impossible?

[ComfortablyAmbiguous]

Hmm, to be clear. Neither undergrad degree was at an Ivy, they were boring state universities, workable with part time and summer work along with merit based scholarships. Her law school was at an Ivy, there is little to no financial aid available for professional degrees. Yes, I was working as an engineer by that time and had a good salary.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

No real degree program is going to leave you with 40 hours free to work a week.

Re:Impossible?

[NicBenjamin]

That's news to me.

I got a work history. Two years the same job. I still get a raise every time minimum wage goes up.

Re:Impossible?

[NicBenjamin]

That's a lot less doable now then when you did it in the early '90s. In Ohio full-time minimum wage during the summer (call it 12 weeks), plus half-time the other 40, earns les then $10k. Tuition at state schools starts at $4.5k per semester. If you get a $5k scholarship you have $6k to live on, all year. It has to cover taxes, car repair, food, gas, cell phone, parking, books, rent, and clothes. This will not work.

Granted change some assumptions (16 weeks of summer, slightly more then minimum wage, 25 hours during school) and you can get that $6k up a couple grand. But rent is gonna be $350 a month minimum ($4,200), gas is at least $100 ($5,400), a cell is at least $20 ($5,640). Books are a couple hundred (call it $6k, even). And you still don't have car insurance, a parking pass, or food. A couple grand might cover it. But God help you if your car isn't 100% reliable.

Keep in mind that when people say it's "impossible" to get through school without debt they are exaggerating. What they mean is that it was trivial for baby boomers to do it, but given that a) college costs have skyrocketed, b) minimum wage is down in real terms, and c) kids haven't magically become better planners/workers/etc. it's much more difficult for Millennials.

Re:Impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like comedy, but quite a lot of truth there for enterprising types. Mod this into space.

Re:Impossible?

[ComfortablyAmbiguous]

Yea, I agree it's harder today than it was then. To be fair, I usually worked during the school year, but that's not always feasible for people to do while maintaining good grades. Undergraduate some Pell grants are generally available, and some borrowing may be a necessity without any support from the parents. I don't understand the people that walk out of undergraduate with a six digit debt.

Re:Impossible?

[NicBenjamin]

Obviously the folks with six-figures from undergrad have done something wrong, in many cases something very wrong, but it is possible.

It's actually really easy even if you go to a state school, as long as it's in another state. Ohio State is $25k. A year in the dorms is $10k. If your parents can't/won't pay, and are too rich to qualify for financial aid, you will end up with six figures in debt from Ohio State. If it takes you five years even a school with less unreasonable out-state rates it's gonna add up. Taking five or six years due to alcohol, frequent major-changes, etc. is not unheard of for college-age kids.

If you're going to one of Ohio's smaller liberal arts schools, which have no endowments for financial aid, and which charge $40kish, it's even easier.

So if you're 18, and you decide you want the Ohio Northern Experience, or the Oberlin Experience, and that when you've graduated money will take care of itself because you'll have that magical college degree...

Re:Impossible?

[Rockoon]

We are talking about a college student, which means young inexperienced and unlikely to have any real skills.

We are talking about $16.40/hour average retail jobs, so why are you injecting experience and skills?

Let me tell you how this works. You pick a hypothesis, and before you act like its a fact, you try to disprove it yourself. You examine shit like your assumptions, perhaps even look at an official reference or two where data is available (its Google wonderful? Not on your case, eh?)

You have made assumptions after assumptions that have either been trivially shown to be wrong, or not at all relevant (skills? retail? really?) Things you could have discovered if you followed that one simple step between the forming a hypothesis and the acting likes its fact.

Re:Impossible?

[Rockoon]

Oh, one more thing.. in another store you said (about me:)

"Mod this idiot down please. The funding act he refers to is the wrong one."

Ask yourself why you thought that it was the wrong act, yet the person who first claimed that it was the wrong act later corrected himself and admitted that I had the right act?

The answer is obvious. You simply accept unsubstantiated claimed unquestionably if they reinforce your preconceived notions, and are also willing to make unsubstantiated claims and act like they cannot be questioned (as if they are facts.)

This is not the behavior of a free man that thinks for himself. This not the behavior of someone who while highly critical of the claims of others at every single step, is even more critical of his own thought and puts effort into not acting like he knows what he is talking about when he doesnt.

Your behavior is the behavior of a sheep. A follower. A zealot willing to ignore reality, a broken way of thinking where beliefs are more important than veracity.

Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get a degree for very cheap, even a decent one.
1. Find a good state school
2 Pick a degree and read all the requirements for that degree very carefully.
3. Look in the transfer database for that school. Take every course that can transfer in exactly from a local community college
4. Take the rest of the courses from that state school.

I got my Engineering degree without taking a single general elective from the school. Everything came from online/summer community college courses for 1/4 the price. Most people spend to much at college because they go where it is convenient and they don't pick a degree until the 3rd or 4th year.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

All good points and very doable. Understand that it will take you at least five years to do this.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

AP courses are also great. At that point it's more of your parents' decision than yours, but going to a school that allows you to take AP English for $50 will get you out of a lot more pain later on. I entered a state school with what amounted to almost three semesters of classes from cramming all the APs I could take in High School. Had I wanted to, I could have graduated with my 4-year degree (Mathematics) in 2 years. Taking lots of AP courses also makes you look good to recruiters, however, so they gave me enough money that I stuck around for the full 4 years, picked up another major, and took some grad courses as well.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[ackthpt]

You can get a degree for very cheap, even a decent one.
1. Find a good state school
2 Pick a degree and read all the requirements for that degree very carefully.
3. Look in the transfer database for that school. Take every course that can transfer in exactly from a local community college
4. Take the rest of the courses from that state school.

I got my Engineering degree without taking a single general elective from the school. Everything came from online/summer community college courses for 1/4 the price. Most people spend to much at college because they go where it is convenient and they don't pick a degree until the 3rd or 4th year.

Or you can find some full-time job in the university so your tuition is largely covered as a fringe benefit, like I did. 2 degrees (c:

Fees and books I still had to foot, but that was insignificant compared to the price of tuition.

I really hadn't though about it before, but that fringe benefit has opened a lot of doors and kept me in wasabi peas for a mighty long time and I never really tallied up the amount in zorkmids my employer footed. Pretty good deal all around. HOYVIN-GLAVIN!

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[ByOhTek]

Yep.

Actually, the state university I work for, encourages exactly that behavior. Heck, we even encourage students to take lower level major courses offered by the local community colleges, at the CCs. I've heard a few groups talk about getting us out of the lower-level course offerings, and just working with the local CCs since they tend to do it better anyway (we a a research institution, and a lot of our profs don't want to be bothered with lower level stuff).

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[CodingHero]

All good points and very doable. Understand that it will take you at least five years to do this.

To be fair, it's becoming more common for the "4-year" Bachelor's degree to take five or more years anyway, at least with engineering.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[ByOhTek]

Only if the degree itself would normally take 5 years, which typically only happens when switching majors.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

An some places, the AP tests are free at public schools. Some states (Florida used to at least) give a school more funding if they have more students pass an AP test, so many schools will cover the cost of the AP test if you have some chance of passing.

Additionally, similar programs will cover the cost of taking community college courses while in high school, even a couple books. It is quite easy to be most of the way through a two year degree without spending anything. A few students every year at the high school I went to managed to finish their AA degree before graduating from high school using a combination of that program and AP tests.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[ackthpt]

Yep.

Actually, the state university I work for, encourages exactly that behavior. Heck, we even encourage students to take lower level major courses offered by the local community colleges, at the CCs. I've heard a few groups talk about getting us out of the lower-level course offerings, and just working with the local CCs since they tend to do it better anyway (we a a research institution, and a lot of our profs don't want to be bothered with lower level stuff).

Yeah, those JC's and Community Colleges work pretty well. A friend had a full scholarship to Stanford, but found his first semester was not to his liking - sitting in 300+ student lecture halls taking notes while a TA flips through slides and answers questions with an accent so thick he had to ask three times for it to be repeated. Came back home, knocked off his first two years in classes of 20-40 students and then returned to Stanford to finish up.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[PCM2]

To be fair, it's becoming more common for the "4-year" Bachelor's degree to take five or more years anyway, at least with engineering.

It's happening with lots of fields. One thing that I've seen happen to students in all types of degree programs is that they'll need one more class to complete their requirements but the school isn't offering the class they need this semester, due to budget cuts.

Also, anyone who has strict scheduling requirements -- say, they have a job to pay for all this school, so they can only take night classes on certain days -- is especially susceptible to this.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[ByOhTek]

I had smaller classes at the large university, than a friend had at the local CC (but I took honors courses). Class isn't always indicated.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people spend to much at college because they go where it is convenient and they don't pick a degree until the 3rd or 4th year.

too

Quality electives?

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Obfuscant]

I got my Engineering degree without taking a single general elective from the school.

Interesting school. When I tried the same thing, the state school required that a specific number of credits be earned at that school even when I had three years worth of required courses covered by the community college. So, I took essentially a full year's worth of "electives" on all kinds of stupid things (like "COBOL", "Linguistics" and "African Political Systems").

It's still not bad, considering that half of your academic load in the last two years at a state school then becomes fluff, allowing you to concentrate on the harder advanced science classes.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[hackula]

I did this, and graduated a semester early with a double major and a minor. This is very doable. Many tech schools even have partnerships with universities in the area called "2 and 2" programs, where you can knock out all the prereqs in the first two years at the tech school almost for free, then transfer for your major classes at the higher rate.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Dahamma]

1. Find a good state school

Of course, it's only a good price if you are a resident of that state, so the options there are a bit more limiting that might sound. Out of state tuition is usually just as expensive as a private school. And many schools only allow a certain number of credits from another school (that's why the article specifically mentions "Excelsior College", which doesn't have that requirement but sounds a bit like a made up school in a Stan Lee comic).

Taking the average of the top ~10 public engineering schools, it's about 10-12k a year for in-state tuition alone (doesn't include room and board, fees, etc). Assuming full time and not being lucky enough to have family in the same town to mooch off of, most people would have to include those as well. So, it still sounds like $30k+ for a "good" state school, which is hard to call "cheap" under any stretch of the definition...

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems you skipped all the English classes.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Dahamma]

Considering Stanford only allows 45 (1 year) AP or transfer credits out of a minimum 180 required for a degree, your story is a bit exaggerated...

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

I did better than this guy did. I actually came out ahead on my degree.

Missouri has the "A+ Schools" program, and I enrolled in it. It paid for (at the time) all tuition, books, and fees (they later dropped the fees portion of this) at state-run community colleges and tech schools. To qualify, you had to maintain a C average (2.5+ GPA), not get in any substantial trouble (suspensions and such), and spend 50 hours tutoring other students. You have 4 years of high school to accomplish this.

Missouri also has the "Bright Flight" scholarship, which is a $1000/semester (full semesters only, no summers) tuition reimbursement for anyone that qualifies. The qualification was to score 30+ on the ACT or 1600+ (I think) on the SAT. I actually re-took the ACT to bump my first-attempt 29 to a 31.

So I got to college and Pell grants picked up around $900 of my tuition. With the A+ full-ride, the rest of the tuition, all of my books, and for the first two semesters, even parking pass fees were paid for. Shortly after the start of each full semester, Bright Flight would kick me back a grand for reimbursement of tuition I never paid. That usually bought software and other things I needed.

At the end of it all, I got a piece of paper that said I'm smart enough to get a quick-and-inexpensive college education and move on with my life. They call it an "AAS" degree. I think it's in a box in my basement.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

-1 Disagree Taking AP Chem and Math classes in high school so you don't take the same classes in college robs you of the experience of taking them in college. For Chem specifically, there is a significant value to the college level courses with actual labs vs. the stripped down grossly underfunded high school AP class where you watch half the labs on an ancient VHS tape.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Or another option:

1. Go to Canada. Or damn near any other country on earth that's not the USA.
2. Earn the same degree as you would in the USA, but knock a 0 off the end of the price tag.
3. There is no 3, go get a job with your degree.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

I did this too. Since I had no problem earning straight A's at the community college, that helped me earn a massive amount of scholarships when I completed my transfer pathway and transferred to a UC school. BONUS!!

Another bonus was that some of the prereq's were easier at the CC. (Although honestly I think this may be part of why I'm a little weak at Math but it was never my main focus anyways).

Still did take on some student loan debt for living expenses / drinking $$ / etc. because I didn't want to work while going to school.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[mjr167]

I took no gen eds at college because they all transferred in. I graduated a year early with a double major in Math and Comp Sci and had to take piano my final semester to be a full time student.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[fliptout]

Somebody with a free ride to Stanford voluntarily gave that up to take classes at community college? This story is missing some information. That or your friend chose a vastly inferior educational option.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Many schools count the lab and lecture as separate courses, so you can skip the lecture but not the lab. Other times, they may require you to take a placement test after doing well on the AP test to make sure you do have those things. And as far as math, that is kind of random. I've seen college math courses that were easier than the AP high school one (and at my high school, people actually went to the local college in an exchange program that let high school students to take free classes, specifically to get an easier calculus course).

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it only took me 2 years, although I know I am the exception to the norm. Online Community College classes were so easy that I found I could take twice as many a semester as I should. I took 15 credits one summer and still had plenty of time for fun.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[usuallylost]

All good points and very doable. Understand that it will take you at least five years to do this.

I agree that the trade off is time vs. cost. Which considering the situation so many students are in with student debt now seems like a reasonable trade off.

Another thing you could do to reduce costs, at the expense of more time, is get an associates degree while you are at the community college. Then use that degree to get an entry level job at a company with an education assistance plan. You will be trading still more time for reduced expense. On the other hand when you get out of school you have some work experience on your resume, no (or very little debt), plus you have been paid, gotten health benefits, paid time off etc while you completed your degree. That is pretty much what I did. The plus is no debt the cost is it took me almost 10 years to complete my degree.

Re:Lots of Cheap Education

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a student from Indonesia this last semester (I teach in an English prep--as in IEP-- program in a state university) who was going from our program to two years in the local community college and then back to our university for the last two years of her BA/S. She said that it would save her parents a lot of money to do it this way, and since she couldn't have a job in the US (except at the university) then her parents would have to pay the bills and she wanted to save them money. Very good student, very smart student, very thoughtful person. Hated to see her go to the CC, but really appreciate her as well.

Scholarships?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how we used to do this in the olden days.

Re:Scholarships?

[ackthpt]

That's how we used to do this in the olden days.

They still exist, but I don't think they cover as much as they once did. Something I became quite aware of was the "Raise The Tuition Through Fees Game" which became quite popular a couple decades back. Higher education realised they could only get away with so much in "Tuition" so they added "high cost fees (for courses requiring an expensive setting or special equipment)", "lab fees", "renoberation fees", "froylavin fees" and "potrzebie fees", which tacked onto tuition began to hurt, particularly as Scholarships and Financial Aid would mostly cover the standard tuition, but were more circumspect about covering fees.

Re:Scholarships?

[tompaulco]

Higher education realised they could only get away with so much in "Tuition" so they added "high cost fees
This. The state schools in my state raised tuition by a multiple of 15 in the last 20 years, but when you add in the fees 20 years ago and the fees now, the net effect is a 30 fold increase in 20 years. Yes, fully half of the cost of attending a class at this school is made up of fees.This is outside of the cost of residence, although a lot of the fees you would think would be tied to residence, like laundry fees, gym fees, etc. No, you pay those, too , even if you live off campus. Unfortunately, a lot of scholarships (for example, the GI dependents bill that my stepson is on) only cover actual tuition, so what was described as a "full ride" when we paid into it, turns out to pay only for tuition up to a certain amount per month, and it is definitely per month. Like when they say $900 a month, they don't mean $10,800 a year. They mean if school started on the 15th, you get $450, so in effect, the bill covers for us around $4,000 a year, which covers around 7.5 credit hours per semester. But, if you only take 7.5 credit hours, they don't pay you on a fulltime basis. Definitely not worth it. Don't pay into the GI Dependent College fund. Better to put the money in a savings account.

Berea College is Free*

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are in the lower 40% of income in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berea_College

Re:Berea College is Free*

[Trepidity]

Hell, Harvard is free too, if your family makes under $60k (about the 60th percentile). Well, assuming you can get into Harvard.

Re:Berea College is Free*

[ackthpt]

Hell, Harvard is free too, if your family makes under $60k (about the 60th percentile). Well, assuming you can get into Harvard.

Yep. One thing to get that free ride, another to have a place to reside during those years (notice how I didn't use the mythical word 'sleep')

Re:Berea College is Free*

[Trepidity]

The Harvard version actually covers the full "cost of attendance", including the price of staying in the dorms and buying a meal plan.

Re:Berea College is Free*

[dkleinsc]

Generally speaking, a "free ride" at an institution that has on-campus residency includes room and board. I actually was good enough in high school to get a couple of offers like that at some no-name universities, which I didn't take but would have if I hadn't been lucky enough to be born into relative wealth.

Re:Berea College is Free*

[ZombieBraintrust]

Berea is not exactly free. It is a work college. You work 10 hours a week building stuff that the college sells. More accurate to say Berea is very good deal.

Re:Berea College is Free*

[Half-pint HAL]

Thunderwood College is free for everyone!

Dr Half-pint HAL BA MSc

UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[Anonymous Coward]

While $3,000 is cheap for an associate's degree compared to many U.S. colleges, it's not unheard of; tuition for locals at a community college near me wouldn't be too far off that, even without transferring in any credits.

Timothy,

Please refrain from your unnecessary misuse of the semicolon. You should have written the sentence above as two sentences.

Yours,
A retired English professor

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[HornWumpus]

Welcome to old age.

The word you are looking for is 'Comma', also I was going to put in an unnecessary, gratuitous, run on, comma spliced sentence, just to annoy you, but I decided not too.

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you support trailing prepositions the use of?

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[Anonymous Coward]

The word he is looking for is in fact semicolon. It's like a comma, but with a dot above it. In the quoted text, it appears right after the f in of, and right before the word tuition. You should try it some time, it would have fit perfectly in your sentence right after the word 'Comma' and would have made it grammatically correct.

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[nedlohs]

You probably need to start using a bigger font in your old age if you read that semicolon as a comma. Or a better font the f and the ; might merge and look like f, in some.

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Misuse"? Oh please. The semicolon is perfectly at home joining two independent but related clauses, as it does in this instance. Would it have been better as two sentences? Probably. A colon might have been even more appropriate, since the second clause amplifies and gives an example of the first. But is the semicolon "misused"? Not unless you're unfamiliar with English-language punctuation. Perhaps it's time for a refesher course, professor....

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[rubycodez]

Read the writings of educated 18th century people, the comma was popular while semicolons were not; today the semicolon is popular, but a profusion of commas is not.

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[rubycodez]

like my hero Yoda, the voice in my head when reading them is similar to

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the use of the semicolon is correct as it connects two closely related independent clauses. If you want to nitpick you should criticize the dangling preposition at the end of "unheard of." Merriam-Webster suggests hyphenating it as "unheard-of", perhaps to give the impression that the "of" is attached and thus not dangling. I'm not convinced.

Re:UNNECESSARY SEMICOLONS, TIMMY!

[Half-pint HAL]

Nope, he should have used a colon: he expanded and explained the point.

A currently-employed English professor.

Great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

The sad fact of the matter is that U.S. citizens have to resort to this kind of 'miracle story' bs to get a friggin B.A. degree in the first place. Am I happy for this guy? Hell yes, and good on him for accomplishing his goal. But higher education should not be this hard to come by for people who really want a college education.

Re:Great, but...

[jerquiaga]

Except that he didn't get a BA, it was an Associates degree, which he could have earned for roughly the same price at the local community college.

But will HR accept it?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, seriously. At lot of resumes from people who went to "colleges" go in the circular file just as well as those of people who did not go to college.

Re:But will HR accept it?

[Steauengeglase]

That is the price of not having 32 years of .NET experience.

Re:But will HR accept it?

[geekoid]

ha!

More value then you think

[borcharc]

An associate degree in liberal arts is a highly valuable degree quite contrary to what most posters will say. Most 4 year schools will accept an AA to meet all of the universities general education requirements allowing the student to move on to upper division course work in their interest area. That same course work would need to be completed in your first two years anyway, but would cost at lest 4 times as much. A good student could complete the course work listed in the article in well under an academic year saving both time and money.

Re:More value then you think

[HornWumpus]

Not that useful for any serous science/engineering/math degree.

Any math or science taken in the _bachelors_ of Liberal Arts program would be remedial for STEM programs. If your not in real Calculus 1st semester you're going to take more then 4 years, just on stacked up prerequisites.

Which leaves you with a little english, history, a foreign language, maybe econ (econ would have been the 'bear' class in the liberal arts track). Maybe 30 credits transferred.

Re:More value then you think

[borcharc]

Most STEM programs have calc as part of the degree requirements and can easily be done in the first year. As long as he is calculus ready there is no hold up. At most it would take 2.5-3 years to complete but he is still ahead of the game. Very few are able to complete a STEM program in 4 years unless they arrive with AP calc, chem, phys, comp, etc.

Any state school will take all 60 credits will transfer and exempt you from whatever gen ed program exists and cover any electives that may exist once your program is done. There is no way around the 40 credit of gen ed. Have you taken a look at a degree map recently? Or how transferring with an AA works? Interestingly, most state schools take grades of less then a C that are part of an AA in transfer.

Re:More value then you think

[HornWumpus]

If he was calculus ready he would get as associates in a useful subject, then transfer that.

Re:More value then you think

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the math or science that is required isn't what you need for a STEM degree. But most community colleges are going to have 2 years of science and math courses which will meet the requirements of a STEM degree. They'll have 3 semesters of calc and a semester of linear algebra. They'll have the required courses from the first two years of a physics or chemistry or biology degree.

You'll run into trouble if you don't plan on majoring in one of the "classic" science majors, since your average CC isn't going to have nearly the breadth of a traditional university. So you probably won't be able to take the first and second year major courses in some specialized field. Or if you're an already advanced student (already have credit for calculus or other courses you'd normally take in your first two years of college), you'll run out of courses to take at the CC, so you won't be able to take full advantage of that.

Oh the critics...

[girlintraining]

Let's be honest: You're getting that degree to get a better job and/or shut your parents up. There are no other reasons for the majority of students outside of highly specialized fields like engineering, medicine, or law, where you have to pass a formalized state exam and screwing up can have side effects like, I don't know, people dying. For the rest of us though, there's very little you actually need to learn, and the rest is just fluff you don't care about (and neither does any potential employer). College these days is one giant rip-off created by the rich to enslave the poor under massive debt loads.

Anyone who can find a way around the system has my vote, nay, my standing ovation. The whole system is a joke; it's the result of colleges becoming privatized and profit-orientated. Some things simply shouldn't be... education is one such thing. That's why we're losing ground to every country that didn't take this ass-backwards "free market" approach to education. It's a right, and everybody gets it -- that's how it should be.

Re:Oh the critics...

[aristofanes]

BBC world news has an article today on the student debt in th USA. There is a list of about 40 related articles.
There is not one mention about free university education in some countries...Finland :Germany (grad school) are a couple.I read about Finland in Linus Torvald's book "Just for Fun"

Re:Oh the critics...

[Hatta]

Any society that does not enable citizens to persue higher education if they wish fails at civilization. We do not exist merely to eat sleep shit and fuck. No everybody doesn't need to go to college, everybody shouldn't need to or have to go to college. But everybody deserves the chance to better themselves, and society as a whole benefits when they do.

It's deeply troubling that the response to "tuitions are too high" is "not everyone needs to go to college" these days. Education is not a luxury that we can afford to go without, it is civilization itself.

Re:Oh the critics...

[SJHillman]

Education is still very affordable in most fields for anyone who bothers to take the time to plan it out before committing. The problem stems from people also wanting a big screen TV and all the major consoles at the same time as working for their degree. I can't speak for most other states, but NY's state university system offers a huge range of degrees and the vast majority of the population lives within a short distance of at least one - often more - two-year state school. Four-year state schools are only a little less common and still very affordable.

I went to a four year state school, got a great education, and am almost out of debt after 30 months of paying on loans in spite of making some horrible financial credit card decisions the six months right after school. It's definitely do-able for anyone willing to put forth just a bit of effort... not even exceptional effort, just a bit.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a right, and everybody gets it -- that's how it should be.

While I can see the value in considering of ways of funding education, please stop calling education a right. A right is something inherent to the individual, not something that can requires the actions of others. To force others to provide you something is tyranny and to claim something is a right when someone voluntarily provided it, cheapens their sacrifice.

Re:Oh the critics...

[girlintraining]

It's deeply troubling that the response to "tuitions are too high" is "not everyone needs to go to college" these days. Education is not a luxury that we can afford to go without, it is civilization itself.

Tell that to the slashmods, who increasingly seem to be showing a similar lack of education and thus civilization. -1 disagree! -1 no girls allowed! -1 not status quo!

Re:Oh the critics...

[sl4shd0rk]

Education is not a luxury that we can afford to go without

I think you're confused. The cost of education at the University level is egregiously prohibitive for many ordinary "citizens". Just because it's available to a select few is hardly making anything better for society. It only "makes it better" for those who can afford to absorb a $50k debt.

Re:Oh the critics...

[dcollins]

I have basic arithmetic students at my college who can only divide 22 by 2 if they count on their fingers (2, 4, 6, 8... then see how many steps it took to get to 22... onoes, ran out of fingers). More generally, about 1/3 of this lowest-level class never memorized the one-digit multiplication table. Do they need to go to college? Does the state need to fund the attempt with financial aid?

I agree that society should support higher education, but I think by necessity there has to be some criteria by which one qualifies for it, else it's a massive waste of resources. If I'm not crazy, then maybe the society that I'm living in is.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Anonymous Coward]

-1 no whining

Re:Oh the critics...

[dbrueck]

Agreed! Higher education is widely available to those who want it enough to work for it. It could be made more affordable perhaps, the system isn't perfect, etc. but if somebody is truly motivated to pull themselves up and pursue a degree, there are many, many ways to make it happen without going into huge amounts of debt. Taking away the challenges (including labeling it a universal "right") isn't helping anybody - many of the challenges of going on to higher education are exactly the things that are needed to transform high school students into mature, responsible adults.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Anonymous Coward]

And it is completely accessible to go learn whatever the hell you want in our society.

This is a separate matter of getting a prestigious institution to vouch that you know what they say you know for the purposes of looking impressive and getting the job you want. That's the grandparent's point, that it's not about education and learning, it's about getting a slip of paper that helps you get a job. Most of the time. I agree with him that important degrees, engineers or actual doctors are still important to teach the people what they need to know to do their job. Anthropology? Not so much. If someone was interested in learning about anthropology, there are more than enough resources for them to go learn about it outside of a educational institution. And most colleges offer serious discounts if your take classes without the credits. Hell, most professors wouldn't notice an extra body in the class.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Anonymous Coward]

We do not exist merely to eat sleep shit and fuck.

This is why commas are important. I'm now wondering what "sleep shit" is, and why you're eating it.

Re:Oh the critics...

[khallow]

No everybody doesn't need to go to college

[...]

It's deeply troubling that the response to "tuitions are too high" is "not everyone needs to go to college" these days.

What's troubling? I agree that the statement is true, You agree that it's true. What's going on is that the US government is massively subsidizing education not only resulting in large increases of the cost of tuition, but also putting a lot of people in college who shouldn't be going. They got enabled and all they did was collect a bunch of the worst debt you can have in US society.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Hatta]

It's troubling that we as a society are not willing to invest in our citizens. That we are not able to see how we benefit from having educated neighbors. There is absolutely nobody, not one person, who "shouldn't be going" to some sort of educational institution or another. There's always something to learn, and we should strive to make learning the cheapest possible source of entertainment, to encourage as many people as possible to learn as much as possible. That's what makes a society great.

Re:Oh the critics...

[girlintraining]

Education is still very affordable in most fields for anyone who bothers to take the time to plan it out before committing.

My bullshit-o-meter just broke on that. Seriously, you killed it. Let's roll some numbers, mkays?

• 1 bedroom apartment in my area: $650 ($7,800/yr)
• Avg. groceries/person/month: $240 ($2,880/yr)
• Electric: $30 ($360/yr)
• Phone: $50 ($600/yr)
• Transportation: $120 ($1,440/yr)
• Tuition: $5,500/yr

Now tuition doesn't cover the cost of books (That'll be another $600), or supplies ($250), or any incidentals you may need like a computer, car, furniture, etc. But we'll ignore those incidentals -- you're still looking at about $20 grand a year. Most of these things you aren't going to have at 18 unless your parents were affluent and gave them to you. Which means... you're gonna have to buy them to live on your own. Even with a roomate. Or several. Oh wait... you have no employable skills -- that's what you're going to college for!. Say hello to minimum wage at $9.50 an hour. And from 18-25, the student loans you can take out are capped, and although most parents do not contribute to their child's education, outdated calcuations based on your parents' income still determine eligibility for a wide variety of assistance programs. Your first year of college will be capped at $5,500 in loans. That's only a mere $14,500 short of what you need to survive your first year. But hey, let's say you take that summer job and you work a full 40 hours a week for three months straight (ahahahaa! Crazy, I know, but Republicans believe it's possible, so let's play along)... Congratulations! Your full time job has earned you... $4,936 gross. Oh wait... forgot taxes. That'll be $4,066.. net.

OH NOES! You're still short $10,434. So about that "very affordable" and how you were "not even exceptional effort" bit? How about a nice resounding Fuck you from the Department Of People Who Can Do Basic Math. There's a reason there's a trillion plus dollar student loan crisis out there, and an entire generation going bankrupt. You don't get to just handwave and say "Well, I was smart. Everyone else was just stupid." It doesn't work that way. You got lucky. Most people didn't. Statistical. Factual. Truth.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Anonymous Coward]

about 1/3 of this lowest-level class never memorized the one-digit multiplication table. Do they need to go to college? Does the state need to fund the attempt with financial aid?

Graduating with a Mathematics degree in the spring, and I don't have that table memorized. Outside of the calc sequence -- where the only implication of not memorizing this stuff is taking a few minutes longer on calculation-intensive tests -- it's not even useful information. Linear, Abstract, Analysis, Diff Eq, Number Theory, HOL... none of these things require having memorized 10*10 numbers and their positions in a table.

Instead of testing if they've memorized it, test that they understand how to do multiplication and division (and understand why the algorithm they use works). that's useful knowledge you can build on.

Re:Oh the critics...

[khallow]

It's troubling that we as a society are not willing to invest in our citizens.

It has to have a positive return to be an investment. For example, how do we benefit from a slightly educated person with a bunch of debt and no job experience?

There's always something to learn, and we should strive to make learning the cheapest possible source of entertainment, to encourage as many people as possible to learn as much as possible. That's what makes a society great.

My view is that what makes a society great is infrastructure. It isn't just a group of people, but a group of people with powerful tools that enable them to do a lot of stuff. Traditional stuff like electric grids or transportation networks are infrastructure that enable people to do vast amounts of work or move people and stuff to other places really fast. In that sense, education and training are particularly potent forms of infrastructure since they enable people to do and be things that they couldn't be before.

But infrastructure, even something like education isn't always a net positive benefit. For example, if you get a degree from a college that practices indoctrination instead of education and you borrowed a lot of money to do so, then how does that help you or society? You just borrowed a lot of money that is going to be hard to pay back for an "education" that neither prepares you for the world or helps you think. You probably got some things, such as "polish" (improved social skills), but you also picked a lot of problems.

This is one way that a normally valuable good, education can be turned into something that harms us all.

Re:Oh the critics...

[bogjobber]

While I agree that you can definitely get a great education if you want, to call it "very affordable" and pass off legitimate complaints as people simply being lazy and materialistic is an incredible stretch.

I live in Utah, a state that has a very low cost of living and an affordable, high-quality research institution in the University of Utah, and a very affordable community college system that feeds into the university. Let's run the numbers for a standard four-year plan.

I'm going to assume that you have a pretty decent job, and that your commute to school and to work are both reasonable and cheap (not the case for most people, but that's a choice so let's assume they have aligned their life around school and work). Rent here for a single one bedroom is about $500/month, so let's say you spend $600 with utilities and internet. $200/month for car insurance, gas, and maintenance, $200/month for food, and $200 for random expenses and a little bit of entertainment. Note that these are all conservative estimates for someone trying to keep costs at a minimum in a place that has a very low cost of living. That comes out to about $1200/month after-taxes, about $9/hr., which is an average wage for someone who has no education past high school. So this assumes that you have an average full-time job, one that allows you to pay all your expenses and save very little or no money every month.

Community college tuition is about $1800 a semester full-time. So you take all of your gen-eds and pre-req classes at the community college, that's going to cost you roughly $2200/semester with books and other fees, so $4400 a year. This is *less* than what subsidized loans will cover for the first year, and roughly the same cost as subsidized in the second year.

University costs $4000 a semester full-time, plus books or fees so about $4500 a semester. This is far less than what subsidized loans will apply, so you're going to have to take out some unsubsidized loans.

So here's where you stand after four years, assuming that you can work 40/hrs. a week full-time and go to school full-time, which by the way, is an incredibly difficult thing to do if your job or your major is even remotely challenging. You're going to come out of school with $19,000 in subsidized loan debt and $2800 in unsubsidized loan debt, not counting the interest that has accrued while you were in school, and launch yourself into a job market that is mildly depressing to say the least.

And this is a *best-case* scenario. One where you know *exactly* what you want to do before you start school, get it done in the proper order, with no mistakes or changes of mind.

Notice that there is no budget for health insurance. No savings, even for the short term. No budget for "a big screen TV." No budget for emergency car breakdowns or trips home to see your parents. No gym membership. No going out to eat. No dates. No fun activities at all, more or less.

And what happens to you if you have a health crisis during that time? You're fucked. What happens if you happen to have a child? Sorry, no school for you. Car breaks down? Sorry, you're fucked. Lose your job, even for a short period? Sorry, no school for you. Your budget can't stand losing even one paycheck.

Not to mention that your'e going to miss out on all the things that most (affluent) people take for granted as part of the college experience. You're not going to be doing much socializing. Not making a whole lot of connections. You're not going to have time to get involved with clubs or organizations. No leadership experience. No partying. You're definitely not impressing many potential mates with your unhealthy lifestyle, lack of free time, and lack of money. So I'm going to have to say that you were either *incredibly* lucky or that you had some outside assistance. Nobody that goes to school and pays their own way has that type of attitude about it. Unless you were just incredibly short-sighted about living your life on the edge of survival every day for 4+ years.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Hatta]

Not everything we buy has to be an investment. Some things we buy just because we want them. If everything you do has to be an investment, what are you going to do with the returns on that investment, invest again? For what purpose? Investing for the sake of earning more money to invest is pointless.

Re:Oh the critics...

[khallow]

So what does this have to do with education as a investment?

Investing for the sake of earning more money to invest is pointless.

To you maybe. Not to the people doing the investing or the targets of their investments. "Earning more money" is code for "producing more things that others value".

Re:Oh the critics...

[Hatta]

"Earning more money" is code for "producing more things that others value".

Bullshit. Earning money is not the same as producing value. There are many many ways to earn money that produce negative value, and many many ways to be valuable that are not rewarded with money. Earning money would be the same as producing value in an ideal world, but we do not live in that world.

Re:Oh the critics...

[EmptyHead]

Any society that does not enable citizens to persue higher education if they wish fails at civilization. We do not exist merely to eat sleep shit and fuck. No everybody doesn't need to go to college, everybody shouldn't need to or have to go to college. But everybody deserves the chance to better themselves, and society as a whole benefits when they do.

It's deeply troubling that the response to "tuitions are too high" is "not everyone needs to go to college" these days. Education is not a luxury that we can afford to go without, it is civilization itself.

Censorship is obscene.
Patriotism is bigotry

Yeah, let's lower our standards so EVERYONE can go to college. I guess that worked for you. Must have been Columbia, noticed your "Patriotism is bigotry" tag line. That one always warms my heart, dear comrade. Healthy patriotism (not xenophobia or racism) instills competition, it's necessary until we have aliens to compete with... Human nature or something...

Most degrees are already nothing more that a metric we must all achieve to get through the automated HR filters. Sure we should all look to improving ourselves after high school but we don't necessarily have to water down the worth of a degree by diluting the workforce with it. Having everyone get degrees entails dropping academic standards (so everyone that wants one can have one - I feel so warm inside), wasting obscene amounts of tax dollars and encumbering the poor sheep with massive amounts of debt to work in menial jobs that likely didn't even require a high school education 30 years ago.

There are other avenues such as tech schools for some.

I don't hate degrees, I finished mine for the sake of career advancement. Doctors, lawyers, architects, most scientists and real engineers certainly need them.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Hatta]

Who said anything about lowering standards? Education, at all levels, should be free, voluntary, and rigorous. The primary concern for a prospective student should be whether they are academically qualified, not whether they have money.

Re:Oh the critics...

[sjw02001]

It's deeply troubling that the response to "tuitions are too high" is "not everyone needs to go to college" these days. Education is not a luxury that we can afford to go without, it is civilization itself.

I think you are assuming this means that not everyone *has the opportunity to go to college relatively easily*. I think that college should be relatively easy to go to for someone who wants to go and is willing to put in a small amount of effort to make it happen. It will always be easier for some people than for others. But not everyone needs to go to college, because not everyone wants to go to college. Some people HATE the traditional classroom experience, and much has been made of other respectable, relatively well paid jobs like plumbing, welding, etc. that are a bit more hands on. Forcing me to extend high school an extra four years with people who don't want to be there helps none of the students. I would argue that until just about all physical labor has been mechanized to a large degree there really isn't a reason for EVERYONE to go to college. (By that point, AI may also have advanced to the point that a lot of desk jobs are no longer needed too, which will force some societal choices.)

To me, one of the biggest problems in higher education is the idea that everyone should go to college. People sometimes just aren't cut out for it at all, and some people would benefit greatly from the "gap year" common in many other western countries where you live life for a while instead of going straight from high school to a university. It helps you focus on what is important. Students can and do burn out too after 12+ years of the exact same thing. The problem is that administrators have a panic attack because OMG ONLY 40% OF OUR STUDENTS GRADUATE ON TIME without considering that perhaps only 40% deserved to graduate. Then comes the administrative bs programs to keep butts in seats rather than actually helping students figure out how to succeed in life. There is no "succeeds in life after college" measure that universities can use to reliably judge how well they are doing, but "90% graduate within 4 years" sounds like a close approximation regardless of relevance. If I spend 4 years slacking off and getting Cs and learning nothing of use, but graduate on time, that is just fine and dandy with the administration because it keeps their numbers pretty.

Please, kids, if you have no desire to go to college other than mommy and daddy said I will be a miserable failure if I don't, DO NOT GO. Full stop. Find a different, creative way to get money and support yourself. If after a while you decide college is a good idea, you can always go back. It might be harder, but it can be done. And just maybe you'll never miss it.

Re:Oh the critics...

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a problem with your country.

Here (old Europe) I only got support from my parents only for the first two semester's tuition, housing and food. I started working a full time shift job (160 to 180 hours a month - NOC engineer for a local telecom - working days, nights and weekends) in the middle of my second semester (here they are only two per year - winter and summer), which allowed me to pay back my parents and support myself independently for the rest of my bachelors and masters. Now, the tuition and was very reasonable - about 30-35% of my annual income after taxes, housing at the dorm and books were like another 30%. The rest allowed for food, transportation and even parties. Now, my job payed really well only for my personal networking, unix skills, troubleshooting and support skills, not anything that I learned in high school - if I have to compare with present day US salaries it would have been in the 90k range. I graduated with B+ (took some penalty for being absent). So a tuition of about 20k year sounds reasonable, and yes, for once I have to agree with Republicans - you can really find work if you are bright enough.

That said, the tuitions in US are overpriced a bit.

College Should be Free

[Anonymous Coward]

Education should be a fundamental right and free for the masses. To avoid "rich" folk from getting an advantage over the rest of us, private colleges should be outlawed and only state-run schools allowed. All professors and other instructors should be employed directly by the government with a set pay scale. Less money should be wasted on aesthetics and more focus on instruction. We can also ensure a wider diversity of professors in all majors and ensure quality education for all members of society.

I would also get rid of GPA.If a student doesn't meet minimum requirements, he or she could retake the class until he or she does. All classes are pass/fail and fails would not be recorded on transcripts

We can reduce the cost while improving quality, and most importantly, equality. If an education costs $40,000 regardless of your major and not even the rich can get a different education with better connections, we will all be better off.

Please write to your congressperson today. Until we acheive this level of equality, I will be ashamed of our country's educational system.

Re:College Should be Free

[Jeng]

You started out with a good idea, then completely turned it to shit.

Re:College Should be Free

[Half-pint HAL]

The great masters of Tai Chi allow their students to train with them for as long as it takes to be ready. This isn't entirely altruistic: they don't want anyone going out and ruining their reputation by going out and being crappy teachers while telling people "I studied under Li Wan" or whoever...

Not Impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

I made it all the way to a PhD without a single student loan.

Excelsior College

[whitroth]

Is not just "regionally" accredited - it falls under the SUNY accreditation, and is a real, valid college degree. I should know: I have a BS from there (or rather, from when it was called Regents' College). You get accredited credits from colleges, accredited tests, etc, and when you have the right point spread, you get your degree. None of this crap from every other college about "oh, well, yes, you took compiler design there, but they have a different *emphasis*, and so we'll only call it an anonymous in-program upper-level elective, and you'll have to take it again", as UT at Austin told me in '91.

There's also no more of this "you have to take the last 30 or 60 credits of your degree *here* (and pay us the money), and those credits aren't transferrable....

It was created in '72 specifically for nursing and... can't remember, another program - students who were in the military, and "yes, we know you're three months from your degree, but Uncle is sending you to Germany for the next two years."

Note this is *not* U of Phoenix, or some such, nor just a "credit bank".

              mark, BS, CIS '95, and proud of it.

Re:Excelsior College

[Anonymous Coward]

Over 8 years ago I earned my degree there and I'm a successful info sec professional. I really could not have gotten in the door without that 4 year degree so I owe a lot to the schools existence. I was a two time college dropout and had a lot of credit hours under my belt. But the third school I enrolled in would not accept all of the credits because i had to earn a certain amount at the school. I can understand since they only exist to make money but I couldn't afford to do that. Luckily I actually lived in upstate NY where Excelsior is based so I was able to learn about their program. You know HR and hiring managers really don't give a crap about what school you went to (in most cases) so I think Excelsior is a great bet to get an education.

Re:Excelsior College

[niado]

Is not just "regionally" accredited - it falls under the SUNY accreditation

Regional Accreditation is generally the most-respected accreditation for schools in the US. SUNY is not an accreditation, it is the state higher-learning system for New York.

Re:Excelsior College

[Anonymous Coward]

University of the State of New York (which was what Regents College was associated with before becoming private and being renamed to Excelsior College) is not the same entity as the State University of New York.

Re:Excelsior College

[Anonymous Coward]

UT Austin is a terrible place to spend your money. Taking my credits elsewhere was the best decision I've ever made.

Re:Excelsior College

[Anonymous Coward]

your homepage needs a http:// in front of it. just saying.

Re:Excelsior College

[Half-pint HAL]

I was a two time college dropout and had a lot of credit hours under my belt. But the third school I enrolled in would not accept all of the credits because i had to earn a certain amount at the school. I can understand since they only exist to make money but I couldn't afford to do that.

That's not fair. They have to guarantee the quality of their graduates, and you can only take so much on faith ("credit" comes from the French for belief/trust, after all). A university that doesn't test students sufficiently can't personally vouch for the abilities of their graduates.

The more levels of bureaucracy you add, the more you erode trust. Notice how the guy in TFA had courses from FEMA that he had to get accredited by a local community college to get onto an academic transcript in order to submit them as qualifying credit to Excelsior. So he has a degree from Excelsior including academic credit from another college that consists of professional training courses from third party suppliers. Where exactly does the buck stop? Who in that chain can actually give an academic reference for the guy? Who personally vouches for his degreeworthiness?

I can see that Excelsior's original intent was good, but if they're letting people take a bunch of CPD courses and a handful of AP and bundle them together as a degree harms their image. Excelsior college is already viewed by many people as a "mail-order degree factory" (I can't quantify that "many", but enough that I've already heard of them here in Europe) and this sort of thing getting too high a profile can only make things worse.

They've got a choice: short-term gain by exploiting the current bubble in freeform self-education or screw down the requirements and preserve as much of their reputation as possible.

Not possible any more

[SuperKendall]

I also finished college with under 10k in debt for a CS degree at a great college.

However look at the tuition for any school now - even working full time there's no way it would be possible to escape any modern college without significant debt.

Something is going to have to give as there are just WAY too many students now who will never be able to pay back the debt they owe. Some might recommend global debt clearing for students but is it really fair to funnel so many taxpayer dollars into colleges who get off scott free for vastly overcharging students?

Re:Not possible any more

[Cenan]

Well, you could just not use taxpayer dollars. If it's possible to determine which college the student has gone to to collect the debt, how about billing them?

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a bright student you shouldn't have to pay anything. I finished my PhD having never paid a dime of tuition at any level of my college education. How?. Scholarships and Grants, not the low income kind either, merit based only. There is still a lot of money out there.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

At some schools, increasing the tuition is just to get money out of people with money or rich parents. Most students don't pay the tuition due to "need" based grants that cover the rest after what the student can pay and a basic federal loan (which can sometimes be skipped if working a job). Raising the tuition just raises the amount of grants most students get, while only making those with money pay more.

Re:Not possible any more

[Githaron]

How expensive was college when you went?

Re:Not possible any more

[borcharc]

The cost of attendance at the University of Minnesota is $24,718. That includes room, board, tuition, and some expenses. The same student would need at least and extra $3,400 for expenses during summer break based on the schools calculation. A full time job at minimum wage after taxes brings in $12,617.28 if worked year round. If the student qualified for Pell grants, something that most all middle class students wont, he would receive $5,500.00. That would leave $3,200 in loans per year if the student was from a dirt poor family or $8,700 per year short for the average american.

With youth unemployment becoming an increasing problem its hard to say that they can even get such a job as older unemployed workers are crowding them out in the fight for jobs. Middle class families have become so debt ridden by bad economic policies and their own runs of unemployment they are ill equipped to help their kids cover almost $9k per year. My mother was able to pay for college in the early 70's with no loans, no grants, just working full time during the summer. Back then technical colleges were free and cranked out skilled workers. Everything is fucked now.

Re:Not possible any more

[ComfortablyAmbiguous]

Tuition where I attended was pretty cheap, 5k a year or so. The wife's law school was not cheap, 24k a year. Add living expenses as needed. This was in the early/mid 90s

Re:Not possible any more

[jerquiaga]

I just finished my Master's (graduated last Saturday), and I don't have any debt. It's entirely possible to do, you just have to be willing to work and go to school at the same time (most kids aren't, or can't get a job because they don't have any experience because they weren't willing to work during their undergrad).

Re:Not possible any more

[SuperKendall]

I believe it was around 10k/year when I went. I worked part time, I also had some grants as well.

Re:Not possible any more

[AshtangiMan]

I posted above but with respect to state schools it not. I witness thousands do it every year in my city of half a million.

Re:Not possible any more

[CastrTroy]

Yeah, but tuition itself only comes out to $12000 a year. Live at home or with relatives in the big city and you can save a lot of money while going to school. If you get together with a few other students and rent out a house, it's often cheaper than paying for residence at the university. Not only that, but the food included at most universities is also overpriced, as well as unhealthy. You'd be better off financially and nutritionally if you just made your own meals.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

A full time job at minimum wage after taxes brings in $12,617.28 if worked year round.

What is a high school graduate doing working a minimum-wage job? Those are for kids and illegals.

Re:Not possible any more

[berashith]

I am currently taking classes at a public university, and paying as I go. I am avoiding debt and also allowing myself time for a full time career and the opportunity to participate in my children's lives. I have the advantage of not needing school as I am well into my career, so this is purely for personal gain with no hurry to the finish line. That said, with the fees that get tacked on every semester, I am paying more than $1100 per class, before books. If I took 3 at a time I could get that down below $900, which is still pushing six grand for 2 almost full time semesters a year. It is expensive on low paying jobs, but not impossible if someone is determined.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with telling people to cut costs by living with their parents or other relatives is that it assumes (a) that they have parents or other relatives willing to let them stay for cheap or free and (b) that said parents or relatives live near a decent university. For people in other situations, which is not uncommon particularly for older students, that advice is about as helpful as telling someone to just have their parents pay for it.

Re:Not possible any more

[hackula]

I did it just fine and graduated in 2010. I went to a tech school for my first year (basically free with automatic grants). Worked as an RA for 2 years, which meant pay and free rent. In the last year I worked an internship which easily paid rent and tuition and I graduated early. I worked my ass off every summer teaching sailing. I ended up with $1500 in debt in the end, which I was able to pay off in a couple months after graduating. I really would have zero sympathy for many of the people floating 100k in debt from school if I did not also know that practically whatever I do now, I will always be ahead of nearly all of them because of choices we made when we were 18. I have loads of friends completing grad school now from Ivy League schools. I am doubtful that many of them will ever have a higher net worth than our HS classmates who decided to go into plumbing. Education is awesome, and can allow you to do amazing things, but debt can do the exact opposite.

Re:Not possible any more

[dbrueck]

Amen! I finished my degree without any debt and it wasn't always a cakewalk, but it wasn't insanely difficult either. I knew my parents wouldn't be able to pay for it, so I got good grades in high school and landed a scholarship that helped. I had a job all through high school and college and tried to be frugal - stuff that I assumed everybody else would do.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for people who leave school with absurd amounts of debt. Some debt might make sense in some cases, but huge debt seems foolish, especially when the graduate then whines about their burden and even more so when their degree is in a field with generally low wages and/or few job prospects. Nobody forced them into it, were they just not thinking things through? Did they have no plan?

Re:Not possible any more

[s73v3r]

This is a student. There aren't many jobs out there that would give you the flexibility you need as a student that pay much more than minimum wage.

Re:Not possible any more

[crazyjj]

Also, a lot of schools still require you to live on campus and buy meal plans for your first year or two (more if you're out of state).

Re:Not possible any more

[geekoid]

tale a course the require 8+ hour of study per day on top of the course and lab.

The talk to me about working and going to school full time.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

a course the require 8+ hour of study per day

That word definitely does not mean what you think it means.

Re:Not possible any more

[jerquiaga]

Alright. I took between two and three classes a quarter, worked full time as the Information Systems Director for a non-profit, and have a one year old (he was one when I started). I was able to do it, with the required study time, papers, projects, etc. I also volunteer with a non-profit that takes me out of the country for a couple weeks at a time every six months or so.

Was I tired most of the time? Yep. Was it hard to balance everything sometimes? Yep. Was I able to do it? Yep. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm tired of all the kids out there that whine about having to work hard. Nobody owes you anything. Get out there and work hard for the things you want in life.

Re:Not possible any more

[jerquiaga]

Sorry, I meant to say I have a three year old who was one when I started my Master's.

Re:Not possible any more

[jerquiaga]

First off, I'd like you to show me any single course that requires 8+ hours of study per day. If there is one (or you think there is) you're probably doing it wrong.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone mod this as troll.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

So they're charging $1k/month for room and board? In Minnesota?!?
Anyone that complains about the cost of education but chooses to dorm is a fucking idiot.
I was recently getting by on $500/month for rent/utilities/food in NEW FUCKING JERSEY, where shit is a tad more expensive than in Minnesota.
I split a 3 bedroom apartment off campus with two other guys, so instead of a [literal] roommate and an annoying RA, I got $500/month in my pocket and the freedom to smoke pot without using a blowtube. I guess I did miss out on the whole "college experience"; you know, shared showers, campus "police", all that great stuff.

Re:Not possible any more

[bored]

There aren't many jobs out there that would give you the flexibility you need as a student that pay much more than minimum wage.

Yah, I will buy that. When I was going to school I was pretty lucky because I had an extremely flexible employer (software development of course). But, I often went looking for other work, and it was basically impossible to find part time/flexible employment that wasn't either an internship, or retail. I had a long talk with the HR people at seagate and a couple other companies about this. Funny thing was the university should have hired me to recruit companies for their internship programs because later I had friends get internships at those companies because the HR departments turned around and signed on with the university and started hiring people as interns.

Frankly, a lot of companies have this myopic view that nothing useful can get done by part-time employees. Which is patently false, most companies have tons of small goal, low risk projects that can add to the bottom line that are perfect for someone working 20 hours a week for 6 months. Testing is the perfect example. A good intern can automate a bunch of tests and prove his worth 10x over. Plus, in the end if the testing scripts or whatever are garbage you don't loose much by throwing them away. The friend who got hired at seagate software wrote a big chunk of their installer for one of their primary products while working part time. The product I work on now, has fairly significant parts of our web UI that were written by interns. In the end, sometimes the best value is being able to make full time offers to students that are proven good employees when they graduate.

Finally, A big choice here can be the school too. I discovered that many of the "top" schools are really unfriendly to non traditional students (read ones working during the day). Basically they are more interested in their rankings than providing an education to the students that need it the most.

Re:Not possible any more

[whtmarker]

However look at the tuition for any school now - even working full time there's no way it would be possible to escape any modern college without significant debt.

Actually it is possible, and people do it all the time. Some earn scholarships, use AP credit from HS, have help from parents, or just work hard. I worked 25-30 hrs/week with a 3/4 course load and full time in summer with a 1/4 course load, tuition was $2000/semester so I paid $5k/yr, rent was $2500/yr. I worked full time during christmas break and other school breaks, bought textbooks online, rode a bicycle (w/ snow goggles in winter), no grants, minimal scholarship money, no debt. With no car and no cell phone, and by not living on campus, you can save a lot of money. If you find yourself short on cash, take less classes that semester, and take more hours at work.

Re:Not possible any more

[threecolorable]

Agreed. In cities where off-campus housing is more expensive, I can imagine that living in a dorm might not be such a terrible deal, but it was absurdly expensive at my university.

The fees came out to around $930/month for a double room (utilities included, but no meal plan). Since I had a roommate, the effective rent on that room was $1860. That would cover rent and utilities for a 4-bedroom house here! When I first moved off campus, I got a pretty nice studio apartment for under $400/month that was actually closer to campus than one of the dorms. It was also a lot more convenient during breaks. The dorms were closed over breaks (and you were supposed to be out within 24 hours of your last exam), so if you wanted to work or take winter/summer session classes, you pretty much had to live off campus.

Re:Not possible any more

[NicBenjamin]

"Not thinking things through," and "not having a plan" is kinda the definition of being 18.

For the baby-boomers it was actually possible to be quite successful if you did both at 18. In fact if you ask most of them about the time they screwed up do to not having a plan they will tell you about something that happened much later, with eyes full of nostalgia, and swear up and down that they don't regret it. OTOH somebody who takes the not completely irrational decision to focus on their studies, and studies a non-lucrative subject because they're good at it, can easily end up with $50k in debt even if they only devote two years to the stupid plan.

Re:Not possible any more

[Anonymous Coward]

$1k a month isnt unreasonable for basic living expenses, its basically the poverty line.

Re:Not possible any more

[david_thornley]

FWIW, I recently paid a tuition and dorm statement of a little over $10K for fall semester. Spring semester will likely be the same. My son is living in a dorm (St. Paul campus, but the intercampus shuttle buses work great) and taking a fairly heavy load in the College of Science and Engineering. What specifically do your figures ($3K higher than mine) represent?

Re:Not possible any more

[mog007]

I graduated with a CS degree two years ago, and I only had about 3k in debt when I got my diploma.

Granted, I lived with my parents and commuted to school, instead of living on campus. It was also a state university, and I've seen it in the top ten for best value schools in the country a few times.

AA degree

[whitroth]

Oh, right, and what's wrong with an Associate's degree? You some kind on little snot upper class twit?

            mark

A Worthless degree for only $3000

[h4rr4r]

Not only is an AA a worthless degree but it only cost him $3000. I guess it is better than spending more on an equally worthless degree.

Re:A Worthless degree for only $3000

[Anonymous Coward]

Said the faggot aspie engineer douche.

Thomas Edison State College (NJ)

[kdataman]

When I decided that my music degree wasn't going to give me the career I wanted, I decided to get an accounting degree. I used Thomas Edison State College in NJ which is regionally accredited but was all non-resident at that time. I was able to use CLEP, ACT, and other similar tests to test out of 75 accounting and business credits over 2 years. TESC combined those with my liberal arts credits from my music degree to award my accounting degree. When I went to Trenton State for graduate study I was prepared to explain my degree, but I didn't need to. The admissions person said that they had very good luck with Thomas Edison grads because they knew how to study on their own.

I've got that beat

[oodaloop]

I received a BS in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College without having taken a single college class, for a total of about $600. I took 30 CLEP, DANTE, and Excelsior exams and transferred some military credits.

Re:I've got that beat

[ILongForDarkness]

Can you get credits for machine gunners and scout recon courses? If so that would be cool ;) It is cool that more colleges are recognizing things like military service courses as both some of them are directly useful (say leadership or accounting stuff for officers) and some are just plain character building which to me seems to be half of the idea of cramming some of the killer course combinations together in one term (I had for example 2 calculus courses and nuclear physics in the same term). Sneaking behind enemy lines with a rifle, canteen, shovel and a few field rations for a week has got to be worth something more than the joy of the experience :)

Re:I've got that beat

[oodaloop]

Actually, some of my credits were for things like Intelligence Analyst course and other courses. I took some correspondence courses from the Marine Corps Institute on everything from Math for Marines to CBRN Protective Measures. I was a Sergeant at the time, but if I had waited a few months I would had received another 35 credits just for being a Staff Sergeant in Intelligence Analysis. So yes, there are multiple ways of getting credits for military service. And Excelsior College is one of the few places that will take as many of those credits as they do.

Re:I've got that beat

[Anonymous Coward]

I got two Associates Degrees from the Community College of the Air Force (one in Intelligence Collection and one in Computer Science), and a BS in Computer Science from Park College, all of which cost me somewhere between $500 and $1000 out of my own pocket. I didn't do so well at the Master's level. I paid for some very expensive courses, and decided not to get my Masters after all, deciding it wasn't worth the expense.

Park gave me a HUGE number of credits for DANTES and CLEP tests, credits from U of MD that I took in Korea, credits from the Defense Language Institute, and my two other tech schools.

My first job out of the USAF, only one company asked me about transcripts or my diploma. After that, they just took my word for it, based on the experience on my resume. Whatever clout the piece of paper may have lacked, my experience in the USAF more than made up for it. I spent almost 11 years in before deciding to get out and trying my hand at the civilian market.

I believed so much in this route, that I encouraged both of my kids to do the same. My son is getting his BA paid for by the Missouri National Guard, and my daughter will get hers paid for through the Navy.

Re:I've got that beat

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. Did the same thing back in 1991 when I was in the service. My BA was a total of $830. Back then they gave upper level credit for good GRE subject scores. I guess I test well...

Re:I've got that beat

[Half-pint HAL]

$600 is a lot if all they're doing is rubber-stamping other people's course certificates. And that's with their military discount too, I imagine. (I'm starting to get curious if I could get a US degree out of spare academic credit I've got kicking around, but it's an expensive option when I can just graduate from the Open University for free...)

Re:I've got that beat

[oodaloop]

Yeah, on the one hand, it seems like a lot since all Excelsior did was take my paperwork and give me a degree. I paid them an entrance fee and a graduation fee, and after the VA paid their share, I ended up paying about $600. On the other hand, $600 is extremely cheap for a degree. The DANTE, CLEP, and Excelsior exams are typically $65 or more each, but free for active duty. All the military credits were free, or at least didn't cost anything on top of the time involved and the fact I was making peanuts working for the govt. I guess a graduation fee is typical for a college (?), but I'm not complaining either way.

Amateur

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy did it without any courses at all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Relvas#Academic_qualifications

$3,000 not that impressive

[superdave80]

My local JC (Santa Rosa, CA) offers a Liberal Studies Associate Degree that requires 42 units. At $46/unit, that works out to $1,932. Granted you will still need to buy books and things, but I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy's cobbled together $3k degree. And I've heard that my local JC is considered one of the best in the state.

Re:$3,000 not that impressive

[aicrules]

The idea that at least portions of an otherwise potentially more expensive college degree could commonly be accomplished with less expensive "outside" courses is an interesting one. One that most universities aren't going to be all that interested in beyond their existing credit transfer policies. And that won't change until people do like this guy and show a demand for it in enough numbers that cause competition to push it that way.

And I actually replied to you because you hail from the city I was born and I don't generally expect to run across someone else from there on any given visit to the slashdot forums.

Re:$3,000 not that impressive

[ILongForDarkness]

My school if I recall correctly allowed transfer credits but they had to be the minority of your degree requirements and I think you were limited to a few for upper year courses. Effectively you had to spend more than 2 years in a 4 year degree at that actual institution to get the degree. But top 3 universities in the country so might be just to prevent a bunch of people jumping on board to get a more prestigious degree.

I agree in principle though that outside credit should count. A MSCE might not be fantastic but it has got to be equivalent to at least a few intro to OOP courses no? Building core infrastructure at a company has got to be worth a networking course or two, (and potentially requirements analysis part of a systems engineering degree, technology strategy in a management program etc). You might not learn everything in a text book but at least if you are competent enough to not get fired/be hired by the next guy you probably have a deeper understanding of the pieces you did deal with than you'd pick up on a 2 week module as part of a course.

Re:$3,000 not that impressive

[Trepidity]

California has actually formalized it for half of a 4-year degree: the 4-year UC and Cal State schools are required to accept transfers in for the last two years from a community college. So you can pay the $2k/yr CC rate for the first two years, then transfer in to a $10k/yr UC, ending up with a UC degree but at effectively a ~40% discount.

Re:$3,000 not that impressive

[twotacocombo]

When you factor in the various tax credits/deductions, I think I paid effectively $0 in tuition for my AS degree. Books and parking were my only major expenses, and some of the book costs can be offset by buybacks/ebay. School was more an investment in time, in my case.

Re:$3,000 not that impressive

[Half-pint HAL]

I agree in principle though that outside credit should count. A MSCE might not be fantastic but it has got to be equivalent to at least a few intro to OOP courses no? Building core infrastructure at a company has got to be worth a networking course or two, (and potentially requirements analysis part of a systems engineering degree, technology strategy in a management program etc). You might not learn everything in a text book but at least if you are competent enough to not get fired/be hired by the next guy you probably have a deeper understanding of the pieces you did deal with than you'd pick up on a 2 week module as part of a course.

My problem is that "deeper understanding" is a trade-off against a "narrower understanding". Before I left IT, I could see how real-world experience and vendor-specific training generally led to a fairly closed mindset, whereas a traditional university education aims at developing broad, open minds. The two are complementary, but not equivalent, and the modern trend to recognise "prior experiential learning" (as it is typically termed in the UK) devalues the degree by dismissing the importance of the open mind.

Much Easier Way - SAT Scores

[Corporate T00l]

The route described in the article is kind of arcane, and he leaves out one of the easiest ways, not just for getting partial funding, but even getting all of your costs funded: High SAT scores.

There are plenty of fully accredited 4-year universities out there who will pay for everything just based on SAT scores or a combination of GPA and SAT scores.

We're talking "Full Ride", like tuition, room, board, and books in many cases:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ridescholarships.html

or significant scholarships that can get the net 4-year cost down to varying levels:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html?highlight=automatic

All based on quantitative measurements alone.

It's hard to say why Richard Linder went through such obscure means in order to get his credits rather than just studying his ass off for the SAT's, but I suspect the reason why he went for "cheap credits" is where the real untold story is.

Re:Much Easier Way - SAT Scores

[dkleinsc]

It's hard to say why Richard Linder went through such obscure means in order to get his credits rather than just studying his ass off for the SAT's, but I suspect the reason why he went for "cheap credits" is where the real untold story is.

My guess: He's smart, but not *that* smart. If you leave high school with a 4.0 GPA, some AP credit, 2400 SATs or 36 ACTs, and a couple of extracurriculars, you're right that you're pretty much set as far as college admission and financial aid. But if you're poor, and have a 3.5 GPA, no AP credit, and good but not great test scores, it's a lot more questionable.

Re:Much Easier Way - SAT Scores

[Anonymous Coward]

Celebrate diversity.

Re:Much Easier Way - SAT Scores

[Corporate T00l]

Take a look at some of the full ride scholarships in those links. You need far from 4.0 GPA or 2400 SATs. There are programs with GPA requirements as low as 3.0 and SATs at just the 1400's. Certainly above average, but by no means extraordinary...

I'd worry if I hired him.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd hire this guy in a flash. This kind of stunt shows a level of creativity, commitment and out of the box thinking that's worth more than any college degree.

His kind of creativity and commitment to his own interests would cause me to wonder if I could keep him challenged with the work that needs to be done. I'd be concerned about maintaining his attention in the advancement of my company. I'd be very worried that he'd lose interest in day-to-day work turn his interest to something else, possibly against the company, and then direct his creativity and commitment towards that, rather than getting the necessary work done.

The more I think about it, the more sure I am that there is sufficient risk to not make hiring him worth the risk. I'd give him a pass because the likelihood of disruption is too high.

I'd be especially interested in hearing the opinions of other business owners, rather than the opinions of workers that fancy themselves to be business experts.

Re:I'd worry if I hired him.

[s73v3r]

If you have to worry about shit like that, then your company is likely working on boring ass shit that no one wants to do anyway.

Re:I'd worry if I hired him.

[Sperbels]

If you have to worry about shit like that, then your company is likely working on boring ass shit that no one wants to do anyway.

Those are the companies that are making money.

Re:I'd worry if I hired him.

[GameboyRMH]

Bad news, that's most of the tech industry.

Re:I'd worry if I hired him.

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds the other way, interesting company, with a worthless HR department, goes out, to get "overdegreed"(sp intentional) applicants, who know nothing. Who were taught by those "socialistic experts of business theory" as to marginally improve a product, and place it out of reach of consumers in the enlightened era's.

Re:I'd worry if I hired him.

[tehcyder]

Newsflash, most normal people think that all work is boring ass shit that no one wants to do anyway. It's just a case of finding the least unpleasant way of wasting half your life.

doing the impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

In state university, hustling for scholarships and a part time job paid for my BS and MS. The PhD was free (excluding the opportunity cost). Total student loans: $0.

It takes only four years depend on your lifestyle

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

at least for the first two years in a community college, "summer vacation" did not exist in my vocabulary. I managed to crank out 133 semester hours in two years with no student loans.

Scholarships and the Army

[davydagger]

Two ways to get a free/cheap post-HS education

1. Smart enough to get a schollarship

2. Join the military.

While in the military, any classes you take in the military at any college, are paid for by the military.(still have to do your duties as a solider in the mean time). University of Phoenix specializes in doing this for soliders.

Two, GI Bill, 3 years of active duty or more, and you get the New GI Bill, which gives you 36 months of education in an accredited school, payed for %100, by the army. in addition the government gives a stipend for living expenses.

Re:Scholarships and the Army

[Anonymous Coward]

As a bonus, you get to join a lottery and might be the lucky winner of a prosthetic leg! (after stepping on a IED)

Not that big of an achievement.

[Westwood0720]

I have two Associates degrees and I found it easier than high school. I also have two Bachelors of Science degrees as well. Harder, yes, but nothing too drastic. I mean, I was still able to commit to gaming on a daily basis. Weekends were filled with four wheeling, wrenching, fishing, and spending time with friends.Finals week was pretty much the only time I had to set time aside to accomplish my work.

IMHO, in today's standards an Associates degree is nothing. I think the time you put in could be better off used by saving funds, starting a business, or establishing your career at an earlier age. I only see and Associate's degree useful if you intend on extending your education to at least Master's degree.

We need a badges system that is not big years+ b

[Joe_Dragon]

We need a badges system that is not big years+ blocks that a Degrees are.

Why so expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

A 2 year degree can be earned for far less from small community college/vocational institutes. The degree would probably be more useful than one cobbled together with no general direction.

A Gateway Degree

[GeneralSecretary]

I have an Excelsior bachelors degree. It was inexpensive and the credits were cobbled together from all over the place. The main value I got from the degree was that I was able to use it to enter Graduate School. While I learnt a lot of stuff in the course of getting my BS in Liberal Studies, the knowledge I use for my job I got from my Grad School education. It seems to me that this country has a liberal arts based education. To get a bachelors degree you have to take a lot of courses in stuff like languages and social sciences that I was not interested in. I understand that the colleges want students to have a broad educational base, but I feel that that is a decision best left up to the students to decide what they want to learn. I think we should have a more a la carte education system with a vocational focus. We should give more power to the students to let them choose what they want to learn while still giving employers a good idea of the skills that come with a given degree. In essence I used my Excelsior degree to bypass the part of education I didn't like and to focus on the parts I did like. I am grateful to them.

Misguided/Happens all the time

[Anonymous Coward]

I fully believe many college degrees are awarded each term to people who have incurred zero debt (meaning no residual debt after they graduate, not that their degrees didn't cost something), so I find this venture to be entirely unimpressive. I would never hire this guy, because he has prioritized the wrong goal. He should be most interested in obtaining the best education--just as I would expect an employee to provide the best service, not the cheapest. He's wasting time--wasting his life--on minimizing the financial outlay.

There's more you can do with just a little debt...

[Missing.Matter]

There is much more you can do if you're willing to take on just a little (comparatively) debt. I posted about this before, but my undergraduate institution had the highest tuition in the nation at the time. Through scholarships and grants, I got the tuition cut down in half, and through work study and a part time job (plus a small loan from my parents, which I paid off before I graduated) I managed to leave with two Bachelors degrees and only 30k in debt. That may sound like a lot, but the full tuition at the time was about $30k a year + room and board. I figured for the cost of a new car, which many people don't have a problem taking out a loan for, I got myself a world class education.

But you can be even more frugal than that. My PhD advisor went to a local state school for his undergrad, did his master's at a top 20 US school, and did his PhD at an Ivy League school. He got paid to do his Master's and PhD, and left the PhD debt free after paying off his low tuition state school loans. The entire time he was in school he was paying no interest of course, by taking out only federally subsidized loans. So while Mr. Linder's associate degree for $3000 is great and all, there are some paths you can take that will lead you straight through a B.S., M.S. and Ph.D. with no debt accrued at the end.

"the impossible"?

[sideslash]

I worked my way through college debt-free. After working as part time as a programmer for a year after high school, I started as a full time programmer at the same time I started college. It took 5 years, but I got an accredited BS CS and graduated Summa Cum Laude, all without any debt or parental assistance. Success in school and life in general isn't magic -- just focus a lot more on the hard work rather than the goofing off.

Winston University

[Nkwe]

Winston University is always a cash positive option.

Re:We need a badges system that is not big years+

[preaction]

Badges? BADGES? We don't need no STINKING BADGES!

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

A liberal arts degree that costs as little as it's worth.

3K for an associates?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about just paying the 1500-3000 a year and be done with it. For the amount of effort put in, he could have just paid that (or slightly more) and been done with it.

Re:3K for an associates?

[jason.sweet]

Maybe so. But if you take all your courses online, you have more time to smoke weed instead of going to class.

Re:3K for an associates?

[Half-pint HAL]

Maybe so. But if you take all your courses online, you have more time to smoke weed instead of going to class.

Nonono, you've got it wrong: if you take all your courses online, you can smoke weed in class. By combining the rampant alcoholism and drug-taking with the study, you can replicate the full student experience part-time while still holding down a full-time job!

It took me two weeks to get a degree at Excelsior

[Anonymous Coward]

...for someone else.

The guy really wanted a bachelor's degree, but he didn't want to study or waste years in school. So, we printed up a fake "employee ID card" with my photo and his name. After two weeks of taking CLEPS, DANTES, and Excelsior's own tests daily, he had a bachelor's degree. My fee was $4K. I'm not sure what he paid in tuition and fees to the university, but I'm sure it was a whole lot cheaper than years of traditional university, living expenses, and lost wages.

I sometimes wish I had done the same for myself instead of wasting four years.

Different strokes...

[maotsan]

My oldest high school friend earned his PhD and is now on tenure track at a branch of UT. He paid for it all by working like a demon. He had a good chunk of savings when he graduated. He is the most productive person I have ever met. This is including raising two children and GMing several multi-year pen-and-paper RPG campaigns. He's smart enough, but not a mad super-genius. He's done it all with an inhuman work ethic.

A 19-year-old girl I have known since she was in her mother's womb danced (read: stripped) her way through college, graduated with a 4.0 average too early for her nursing program (they won't take her 'til she's twenty). So she has a year off, with no debt. New car. She already makes as much as I do, and I'm a software architect with a decent job.

I have another friend with four bachelor's degrees, is a professional dancer, masseur and piercer. He owes over $100k in school debt, mostly to the federal government, a bit to private parties. He earns his living doing amazing custom carpentry. Never plans on paying the federal stuff back, he can't, realistically, unless he devotes a good chunk of his life to it, and you only get one.

Re:Different strokes...

[PolygamousRanchKid]

A 19-year-old girl I have known since she was in her mother's womb danced (read: stripped) her way through college

. . . definitely not an option for most Slashdot readers . . .

. . . well, at least, not getting paid for doing it . . .

Yes, -1 me!

[girlintraining]

Yeah, I disagreed with you! I insulted the status quo and for that I should suffer! Mod me down! Mod me down quick, that heretic! For though I speak a truth that is written into the constitution of dozens of countries around the world, it's blasphemous in the one you live in! Set that woman on fire and burn her at the stake for disagreeing with our great and ignoble institution of greed and pilloried cash! Yes, slashmods! Do your patriotic duty! You must -1 this heathen, or others may hear her siren call and realize that, indeed, millions of peasants are suffering because some political ideology is fashionable right here and now!

Re:Yes, -1 me!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a freaking mod point. You are not being burned at the stake, beaten, raped or assaulted in any way shape or form. Please get over yourself and grow up. I have been on Slashdot for about ten years (sad, but true). I've been mod bombed two or three times where I was actually banned from posting to Slashdot for a couple weeks. Getting a downvote or two isn't the end of the world and you really need to get some perspective.

Not really all that difficult

[Anonymous Coward]

I put myself through college. It took me 6 years, at an average of $4000 a year which is hardly enough to drive one into debt.

Shop around, evening degree programs are out there, and aren't any worse than the day classes. In fact, Harvard's Extension School is arguably BETTER than their day college.

And hey, the degree on that says Harvard.

impossible?

[Anonymous Coward]

I got my degree without taking on any debt at all (or borrowing anything, for that matter). I had a combination of scholarships, AP credit, and paying several grand out of my pocket from working 35 hours a week while living on campus.

so impossible? no, it's not impossible to graduate with no debt if you work hard. uncommon and not feasible for some? Sure, I guess. I don't get what the big deal about this story is, though. The guy got an essentially useless degree.

Community colleges and 4-yr degrees

[ortholattice]

Although community colleges are often low-cost, it is hard to find one that gives more than a 2-year degree. One of the reasons is that private colleges, such as University of Phoenix, have lobbied against it, since it would hurt their profits.

Reference: University of Phoenix' plot to corner the cheap education market

Re:Community colleges and 4-yr degrees

[Anonymous Coward]

University of Phoenix doesn't corner the cheap education market. They've cornered the "convince stupid people to take out the maximum federal student loan because they don't realize they have to pay them back" market.

Congratulations, Mr. Linder.

[Revotron]

And yes, I would like fries with that.

need to cut down on the filler / fluff classes

[Joe_Dragon]

need to cut down on the filler / fluff classes and not all stuff should be part of a "4-year" Bachelor's degree we need have more 1-2-3 year plans as well.

We all don't need the full load of college classes that come with big skill gaps.

transfer in exactly = retake at our costs as we ma

[Joe_Dragon]

transfer in exactly = retake at our costs as we make a very small change.

Sounds like best buy it's the same TV with a differnt SUK so we don't price match it.

it's lack of tech / vocational / apprenticeships i

[Joe_Dragon]

it's lack of tech / vocational / apprenticeships in fields. The TECH field has lot's stuff you need to do hands on to learn.

Yes jobs do need post high school but they don't all need college.

Meh

[Malenx]

4 years in the Air Force after high school provided me with an associates, an awesome resume bonus, and 4 years of schooling where I'm paid about 1000 a month to attend with full tuition and a books stipend.

When all is said and done I'll have spent 7 years being paid to get my bachelors but man it's been a lot of fun.

so

[ILongForDarkness]

What exactly does "regionally accredited" mean? Does it mean if you want to do a masters you have to do it in the same region? Is it anything other than a diploma mill? Better than nothing I guess but I prefer my degree to be internationally recognized.

Boring Stuff Is The Majority

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have to worry about shit like that, then your company is likely working on boring ass shit that no one wants to do anyway.

It sounds like you're one of the people I was referring to when I said; "workers that fancy themselves to be business experts".

Boring stuff is the majority in business. Look at all the boring stuff around you that is essential to your daily life, tiles on the floor, switches in the wall, food in the fridge, tires on the car, pens on the desk, toilet paper in the bathroom. All these things are the products of big businesses, billion dollar industries.

All these things are boring as hell, but the companies that got them to you all need to have employees doing seemingly boring jobs making, transporting, marketing, and accounting. These companies, like mine, need good employees that can think for themselves, get the job done and further the company on which I and they all depend. It's the boring jobs that make the world go round.

Richard Linder, from the article, doesn't seem like a good fit for any of these companies/jobs.His associates degree in Liberal Arts and penchant for "bucking the system" also suggests to me that he isn't cut out for running a business of his own either. Something that not only requires creativity as well as an eagerness to do the same boring shit day in and day out, sales and marketing, supplier negotiations, transportation, accounting, payroll, hiring and firing... Mind numbingly boring, but that's what pays the bills.

Wow!

[viperidaenz]

A liberal arts degree! Your mom must be so proud. Seems like a waste of $3000 to me.

Community College costs

[tompaulco]

In my area, Community College tuition is free to local residents. Books are extra and residency and a lot of other stuff, but the coursework itself is free. Or free after having been taken from the local citizenry via taxes.

northwestern college has more programmatic accredi

[Joe_Dragon]

Northwestern College has more programmatic accreditations and approvals than any other similar two year, private college in the state of Illinois. We are accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and strive to meet the criteria established by the specific boards that approve individual programs of study.

They are not the big ten one with just about the same name.

One Up....

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better hack....

Obtain the job which requires college, without obtaining a college degree first.

That's right. Drop out of high school and earn $100,000 a year before turning 25 like I did. :)

Re:We need a badges system that is not big years+

[Obfuscant]

Badges? BADGES? We don't need no STINKING BADGES!

If you're going to use a movie reference, at least do it right.

"Badgers? Badgers? We don't need no stinking BADGERS!"

GRE Subject Tests

[smchris]

Back when it was Regents, you could get a "concentration" basically just by getting an above mean score on a GRE subject test. Since I believe the guy who started the Triple Nine IQ Society had about a dozen of them, that became a bit of a fad. I picked up English Lit, Sociology, Political Science and History -- yup, accredited as long as you say it's a "concentration" -- in a year for chuckles for slightly over a $1000 total back when the economy was good to add to my traditional two majors. I always had a sneaking suspicion the college hated our guts for making fun of the process and we may have screwed it for other people. You can still get credit but, offhand, I think it's more like half a concentration for a score significantly better than mean.

Nonetheless, if you pass several GRE subjects tests, I imagine that's still a lot of elective credits received very, _VERY_ cheaply.

Re:It takes only four years depend on your lifesty

[IndustrialComplex]

OK, so assuming 2 Fall semesters, 2 Spring Semesters, and 2 Summer Semesters...

You averaged over 22 credits per semester. First, I'm guessing that wasn't an engineering degree. Second, I've always held that it takes about 3 hours per credit hour of non-classroom work in a decent program.

Honestly, that puts you at about 60hrs per week in pure study/class time. Unless you started with a lump sum of cash, I don't see how such a schedule is possible to do while not picking up any loans.

22+ hrs/semester.... Outrageously aggressive, but possible.
22+hrs/semester while working a job to pay for school and actually learning the material? I'm not buying it.

Re:We need a badges system that is not big years+

[idontgno]

If you're going to use a movie reference, at least understand which movie is being referred to.

Easier then you think

[Splat]

I've looked into this myself. I have an associates and have been slowly chipping away towards a Bachelors for years. http://www.degreeinfo.com/forum.php has a lot of good resources on this, but basically you can hack together credit from a combination of CLEP, DSST, among other equivalency testing, and then transfer them into one of the friendly-towards-this-kind-of-thing schools like Excelsior or Thomas Edison State college.

I was actually enrolled in Thomas Edison prior to knowing about this, slogging away at online courses. After learning about this "hack", and even figuring out a sure-fire way to a Bachelors degree in like 6 months, I didn't do it and I now haven't continued any further with Thomas Edison. For some, having a "BS" or "BA" in and of itself might be worth it, but for me the whole idea/thing just made the online degree seem like a joke if you can test your way out of an entire degree basically

Pell grant = no debt, lots of taxes paid!

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a free BS degree back when Pell grants were still being handed out and college debt wasn't an issue. I got a job as a computer programmer and have been paying taxes ever since. I think the Pell grant is the best deal the government could possibly get. For a modest payout for a state four-year college degree (I didn't even live on campus!), the USA got a lifelong taxpayer. Cutting out Pell grants may save money in the short term, but I can't think of anything the government could do that has a better return on investment. They'll make back orders of magnitude more money in taxes over my lifetime than they paid for my degree.

Impossible you Say?

[Anonymous Coward]

"...determined to do the impossible: earn a U.S. college degree while not taking on any student debt..."

The impossible - wtf!? I did it the old fashioned way - worked during the day and took night classes, or vice versa. I earned my BS in Finance from The Ohio State University in four years working nights, weekends, holidays & summers.

I was surprised at how many posts here were from people attempting to simply shoot the angles. I didn't take on any debt. Managed to pay my own tuition, housing, books, and entertainment - all on my own.
Here's my secret: sacrifice, discipline, and determination.

"Luck is not chance it's toil, fortune's expensive smile is earned"

$3,000 can get you an MSc here.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what an "associate degree" from a "college" is, but at the University here, where I live and (disclaimer) work, you can study for 200 Eur per semester (if you're accepted in, of course, and this is true for most courses, but not for the 4 or 5 prestigious ones -- they're frigging expensive).
So yeah, if you do the work, you can first do your BSc and then MSc in CS (for example) in 5 years = 2000 eur (according to google, that's about 2600 $).
I've heard that in a large, neighboring, German-speaking country, the tuition fees are comparable to those here.

So, if you guys want the degree and a fantastic experience, take a hop over the pond and go for it!

BA Degree in One Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

I had the equivalent of an associates from various sources and transferred my credits to Excelsior along with my MCSE, local community college courses, and 18 CLEP and DANTES examinations. I started the summer with 80 some-odd credits and no real degree. I finished the summer with 140 credits and a BA in Liberal Studies with concentrations in Psychology and Business. Immediately upon receiving my transcript, I went directly into an MBA program the next week. Can I tell you that I worked harder finishing my bachelor's than I did getting my MBA?

Re:We need a badges system that is not big years+

[dkleinsc]

That's another parody. The original was Treasure of the Sierra Madre.

The sad part:

[fredrated]

When I went to UC Berkeley in the late 60's, cost was $100 per quarter + books.

$2224 at a comunity college in California

[bcrowell]

This is really, really stupid. At the commnuity college where I teach in California, an AA degree requires a minimum of 60 units. Fees are $36/unit, and you also have to pay a $16/semester health fee. That's it. Total cost for a two-year degree: $2224. No "hacks" required.

And this is all assuming that you don't qualify for any merit- or need-based grants. An awful lot of our students qualify for Pell grants and fee waivers.

For typical working-class people, the financial problem with getting an AA degree isn't the cost of the coursework itself. The problem is that you have to pay for rent and groceries, and if you work full time, you'll have to take such a small course load every semester that it'll take you a decade to finish two years of college. One way around this is to cut your expenses, e.g., by living with your parents and not owning a car. Another way is to take out loans; if you have a low income and aren't dependent on your parents, then you qualify for subsidized Stafford loans, which have a low interest rate. If you're a veteran, the new GI bill allows you to get a stipend that's enough to live on, based on your zip code.

Anybody in the US who claims they're being excluded from a college education because of their income is full of baloney. Our state and federal governments spend lavishly to subsidize college education, and the subsidies are set up very carefully so that working-class people have a good enough deal to have access.

The real reason that working-class people get excluded from higher education is that they often got terrible K-12 educations, which didn't prepare them for college.

Hector One Bravo, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember folks, the H1B visa makes that all but a waste of time. Unless the USA starts putting its natives first, college will continue to be a waste of time.

The bigots have been right all along.

Re:We need a badges system that is not big years+

[Anonymous Coward]

Did someone say we need badges? 'Cause thats what I think I heard. How about something like this:

All entry level employees will wear a single window of Microsoft's logo upon hire.
If you make the 90day we-can-fire-you-for-anything cut, you must sew on a two window Windows logo on your uniform.
After 10 years, you might get promoted to a supervisory position and must sew on the 3 window Windows.
If you know the right people and kiss the right ass, you might get senior exec status and sew on a 4.

Board Members, CEOs, and the like will wear four coloured Microsoft window logos which will be metallic.

Awards and decorations are mandatory on all uniforms.

wouldn't *not* consider...

[globaljustin]

But I agree...it shows a fundamental lack of understanding at what happens at college.

People, unless you came out of your undergrad having studied a bit of every subject and *most* of *one* subject with the guidance of experts...well...you didn't go to college...

You got a piece of paper...which is all this dumbass did with his stunt.

However...it *does* show intelligence and more importantly persistence. He saw the stupid idea through and that's worth something.

I wouldn't consider him for any academic or research-based job at all...but he could be a hell of a manager with some training.

Re:wouldn't *not* consider...

[tehcyder]

I wouldn't consider him for any academic or research-based job at all

Well, you'd need a PhD for that anyway, so whether you did a 2 year Associate degree leading to a Bachelor's degree, then a Master's then a PhD or just a Bachelor's, Master's, PhD is irrelevant.

degree != college education

[globaljustin]

I agree he's hirable...but he demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of learning...

You didn't go to college unless you studied *all* disciplines as a survey and study *most* of *one* subject under the supervision of recognized experts in the subject..

If you didn't do that you didn't get a *college education* you got a *piece of paper*

However, he does demonstrate intelligence and more importantly persistence. He followed through with his stupid plan to the end...that means something.

I wouldn't consider him for a research or analytical thinking position, but he'd make a hell of a manager.

Re:degree != college education

[cwsumner]

You seem to assume that a 2 year college is inferior to a 4 year college. I have done both, and I think that is an unfounded assumption.

Re:It takes only four years depend on your lifesty

[fotbr]

Roommate of mine had a couple semesters in an engineering program that on paper were 27 hours, because he tested out of some low-level humanities classes. In real life, they were more like 18 hour semesters.

better idea:

[buddyglass]

Hack the SAT and get a scholarship that covers four years of tuition and fees at a decent state university. This is easiest if you're still in high school: in that case hack the PSAT. Despite the "A" in their names these exams only really test "aptitude" in the absence of any preparation on the part of test takers. That is to say if no students prepped then those with higher aptitude would generally score higher.; however, it is eminently possible to game them. Hone your basic test-taking skills, memorize a bunch of vocabulary and master the fairly basic level of math that's tested. Being smart lets you do well on the PSAT/SAT without much preparation, but (in my opinion) even a student of average intellect should, with some dedicated effort, be able to score very highly. For the PSAT it also helps to live in a state with generally poor student performance since the National Merit Semifinalist designation is given to the top 0.5% of students in each state. Much tougher in Mass. than in Miss.

Liberal Arts

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but what's he going to do with a Liberal Arts degree? It's MAYBE a little better than no degree.

If all he got was an associates' degree...

[Anonymous Coward]

...it wasn't worth it. Not to mention the fact that an actual plan of study, a unified set of courses, is worth far more than the sum of the credit hours (or, put another way, an eclectic hodge-podge is worth less than the sum of the credit hours). Sorry, but as a university instructor, no one I'd trust would be impressed by this. In fact, it tells me that this person doesn't really "get" the point behind higher education. It's not a series of boxes to be checked off; you don't "win" the "degree game" by completing "achievements." There's a bigger picture, and I'm afraid this gentleman blew three grand on missing the point.

$2760 in tuition @ California community colleges

[Anonymous Coward]

Associate's degree is 60 units, generally: http://www.smc.edu/StudentServices/TransferServices/AreasofStudy/Pages/Associate-Degrees.aspx

Resident tuition is $46/unit (wow; it was $21 in 2009...): http://www.smc.edu/EnrollmentDevelopment/Admissions/Pages/Fees.aspx

Without having to run all over the county to do it...

Kids DON'T have it easy today

[Anonymous Coward]

Class mobility is almost non-existent today. Legacy admissions have crowded out anyone but sons of the rich and famous from the Ivy League. Being a National Merit Scholar isn't enough as my son found out. (Exceptions are made for token minority candidates - but I can't begrudge them that.) Back in my day (early 70's) I worked for a couple of years after my BS, decided my social life was lacking, and should go back to graduate school on my savings to chase co-eds with getting a PhD as an excuse. (My plan worked great until one caught me and I had to actually graduate.) Tuition was under $300 a semester for a full load at a tier-one public university. Kids don't have that option today. Pity.

...or a Pell grant and wgu.edu ..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm applying for admission here.

WGU is cheap. Check it out. It's mostly certs, then they issue you a diploma.

Full disclosure, I'm not getting paid to say this.

Translation:

[uvajed_ekil]

Mr. Linder cobbled together an associate degree in liberal arts

Translation: he got half a useless degree.

What part of "tends to" was confusing?

[King_TJ]

I don't know? I think the confusion stemmed from your first sentence:

The bigger a degree, the more interest it'll engender.

That, IMO, is simply untrue.