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Air Force Sends Mystery Mini-Shuttle Back To Space

dsinc sends this quote from an AP report about the U.S. Air Force's X-37B spaceplane: "The Air Force launched the unmanned spacecraft Tuesday hidden on top of an Atlas V rocket. It's the second flight for this original X-37B spaceplane. It circled the planet for seven months in 2010. A second X-37B spacecraft spent more than a year in orbit. These high-tech mystery machines — 29 feet long — are about one-quarter the size of NASA's old space shuttles and can land automatically on a runway. The two previous touchdowns occurred in Southern California; this one might end on NASA's three-mile-long runway once reserved for the space agency's shuttles. The military isn't saying much, if anything, about this new secret mission. In fact, launch commentary ended 17 minutes into the flight. But one scientific observer, Harvard University's Jonathan McDowell of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, speculates the spaceplane is carrying sensors designed for spying and likely is serving as a testbed for future satellites."

35 of 123 comments (clear)

  1. timeframes reveal anything? by linatux · · Score: 3, Funny

    Must be over-due for a good conspiracy theory

    1. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by Nyder · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Must be over-due for a good conspiracy theory

      It's not a conspiracy till Jesse Ventura investigates it.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_Theory_with_Jesse_Ventura

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    2. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by mcrbids · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Conspiracy or no, the Air Force did what NASA could not: demonstrate a PRACTICAL, reusable space plane.

      NASA had a "designed by committee" project that threw in everything including redundant kitchen sinks and ended up with a bloated whale of a project that was highly impractical and utterly a failure at what it was intended to do: reduce costs. Instead what we got was something designed by committees of non experts that ended up with something like Homer Simpson's badly designed car that has been an utter failure in the marketplace.

      This is a classic White Elephant development that simultaneously bankrupted NASA while disabling the development of any more feasible technologies. So we're stuck with it while NASA tries to regroup and come up with a strategy that doesn't suck.

      Meanwhile, belief in NASA's proficiency is at an all time low, so even though they are, in fact, doing some really cool stuff, the fact is that the worlds wealthiest nation has one of the world's least useful space programs.

      So the USAF built their own. Is anybody surprised?

      --
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    3. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      How do we know that?

      As far as we know this is a totally new craft at every launch.

    4. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One reuse so far, and it's unmanned. It's a bit much to compare that to what NASA wants, which is a manned craft, that's definitely reusable more times. (The X-37B might be, it's just too early to say. It hasn't even landed after the first reuse yet.)

    5. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by Hythlodaeus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      X-37 is a NASA design. The Air Force rescued it when NASA couldn't find the money to keep it going.

      --
      For great justice.
    6. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by Jeng · · Score: 4, Informative

      NASA had a "designed by committee" project that threw in everything including redundant kitchen sinks and ended up with a bloated whale of a project that was highly impractical and utterly a failure at what it was intended to do: reduce costs.

      The worst features of the Space Shuttle were put there for possible military missions, but the military looked at the final product and basically said "What were we thinking?", and continued to use rockets.

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    7. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      demonstrate a PRACTICAL, reusable space plane.

      I think you mean a practical, reusable space plane that has never been man rated and never will be. That requires a whole other level of engineering, testing, reviewing, and documentation.

    8. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by thebigmacd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The space shuttle was largely a new craft at every launch too: the fuel tank was new, the engines were rebuilt, tiles were replaced, boosters were remanufactured (and completely new every few flights)

      I think it was the shuttle (might have been the Saturn V) that had around 4000 parts fail every flight.

    9. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by peragrin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      no the worst features of the shuttle was putting the main engines on the the shuttle instead of on a primary booster like the Buran.

      That created a lot of complicated parts that took way to much time to maintain between launches. All three main engines in each shuttle required a complete disassembly between launches. Not to mention the weight.

      The Buran flew like the x-37 flies now. pushed up by something else and then using thrusters in orbit.
      Indeed the X-37 is being studied by boeing for a 200% scale version for manned version as flying down from orbit is safer than parachute landing.

      --
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    10. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Funny

      More likely the MPAA is behind this. Space aliens have been torrenting by tapping into the dark nets and now the MPAA is on their tails.

    11. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by bobbied · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Conspiracy or no, the Air Force did what NASA could not: demonstrate a PRACTICAL, reusable space plane.

      NASA had a "designed by committee" project that threw in everything including redundant kitchen sinks and ended up with a bloated whale of a project that was highly impractical and utterly a failure at what it was intended to do: reduce costs. Instead what we got was something designed by committees

      The Shuttle was a MANNED vehicle while the USAF's is NOT manned. Having a crew requires significant amount of equipment and weight to provide the minimum of life support (power, air, light, cooling, food, waste processing etc) which is not required by the USAF's unmanned drone. Further, it's been a couple of decades since the shuttle was designed and technology has advanced, getting smaller, lighter, and less power hungry. I am not surprised that an unmanned vehicle is smaller, cheaper, and more mission capable all things being equal. But they are not equal..

      Comparing the current state of the art and complaining that what we fielded 30 years ago was a waste is not valid. Yes, the Shuttle did not meet the cost per launch targets, but I don't think the shuttle program was a total waste of time or money because of that. And the USAF's unnamed drone is 30 years more advanced in technology which was partially developed through what we learned though the shuttle program.

      If anything surprises me is that it took so long for the USAF to figure out they needed a reusable platform of their own, but even that is understandable when you remember they used the shuttle for some classified work when it was available. This is just the natural progression of things.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes but not exactly the way you think it happened. NASA wanted a smaller shuttle to well shuttle astronauts and supplies to a space station. NASA also wanted in improved Saturn V "The uprated F1a was already in testing" as well. Congress said no you can have which ever is cheaper.
      Congress also wanted it to do all the military launches so they had to put big spy sats into polar orbits. Without military support no shuttle. NASA was fighting for their lives at the time.

      We can put a man on the moon but we can not "fill in your social cause or pet project here"!
      Well we can't put men on the moon anymore! Happy now!

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    13. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by bobbied · · Score: 2

      The worst features of the Space Shuttle were put there for possible military missions, but the military looked at the final product and basically said "What were we thinking?", and continued to use rockets.

      Not exactly true. Shuttle missions where partially funded by USAF projects on a number of occasions, and I recall at least one "classified" shuttle mission.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    14. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      The worst features of the Space Shuttle were put there for possible military missions

      That's the urban legend version of the story... In reality, NASA was already studying most of those features (notably the double delta wing and it's enhanced crossrange capability) and seriously considering incorporating them because of the enhanced safety (more abort options, more landing opportunities) and greatly increased operational flexibility (more landing opportunistic) that they provided. Contrary to popular belief, the Shuttle's development history is fairly complicated - and there is no "golden design" from which NASA deviated solely at the behest of the DoD.
       

      but the military looked at the final product and basically said "What were we thinking?", and continued to use rockets.

      Um, no. The DoD did embrace the Shuttle - when Challenger broke up, Discovery was being prepared for transfer to the DoD and the launch complex at Vandenburg was nearly complete.

    15. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by Darth_brooks · · Score: 2

      The next generation X-37, the X-37C, is expected to be scaled up by 165%-180%, with the expectation of having a crew habitation unit (likely a modular unit that can be swapped in and out as needed.)

      --
      There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
    16. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by __aarzwb9394 · · Score: 2

      How likely is it that the x37b gleaned no information from the space shuttle's development and use?
      very unlikely indeed.
      How likely is it the x37b is able to take advantage of advances in technology and materials made since the early 80s/late 70s?
      almost certain
      How much easier is it to build something not designed to carry humans?
      a great deal easier

      They got learn from people preceding them, and got to do the job with better tools, and had an easier job to do.

      Your unthinking post is there to reinforce your own dogma that government === incompetence.

    17. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by timeOday · · Score: 2

      I am curious of what is the point of an unmanned space plane? There's nobody on it, so why make the return trip? The ability to fly down must compromise the design for everything else to some degree.

    18. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by gadget+junkie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am curious of what is the point of an unmanned space plane? There's nobody on it, so why make the return trip? The ability to fly down must compromise the design for everything else to some degree.

      It might just be that the RESULTS from the sensors are so far ahead of the curve, that the DoD doesn't want to broadcast them in any shape or form. Or, security of military channel data have been compromised to some degree. Or, just a message to the Chinese, who have tested antisatellite weapons in the past, that their "dark period" in that case is not measured in weeks, even if they disrupt communications between the satellites and earth.
      It might be like the B2 Spirit: there might be only 20 of them, but if your bosses control a country spanning 5 time zones and want an early warning system capable of defeating it, start to print money now. Because you do not have enough of it.

      --
      "If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
    19. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      no the worst features of the shuttle was putting the main engines on the the shuttle instead of on a primary booster

      The worst feature of the shuttle was trying to make it carry both people and cargo. That is like trying to make an airplane do the job of both a F-16 and a C-130. It is not going to do either very well. We should have designed a cheap unmanned heavy lift vehicle that was 99% reliable, and a much smaller "space-plane" to carry people that was 99.99% reliable. Instead we built a really expensive manned heavy lift vehicle that was ~98% reliable (135 launches, 2 failures).

    20. Re:timeframes reveal anything? by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Comparing the current state of the art and complaining that what we fielded 30 years ago was a waste is not valid.

      Perhaps, but NASA has had major managment issues from the start. Go read Appendix D of the Challenger Disaster report, by one Mr. Feynman, who had to fight tooth and nail to expose the institutional problems that led to the problem. It's since become a case study in how not to manage a project and is required reading in several prominent engineering companies. The design of the shuttle engines, while amazing pieces of technology, were not built according to best practices -- it was literally put together as a whole system and then tested as a completed unit rather than integrating each subsystem after extensive testing and comparison with expected baseline. Debugging the damn thing was exceptionally problematic and to this day it's still not known if all the possible failure modes and bugs have been found and documented. Management showed a long pattern of decreasing safety standards and bypassing procedural safeguards to maintain their image as "cutting edge".

      NASA still suffers from those problems today, and private contractors and now the USAF have proven that the technology is actually not all that sophisticated nor requiring the massive administrative overhead that is so typical of NASA missions and daily operations. They've done it faster, better, and cheaper than NASA did, and their success lies not in copying existing technology, or inventing new technology, but in having good project management skills and not letting committee thinking and politics mangle and derail the whole thing, leading to massive cost overruns.

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  2. Toby in 'West Wing' was right... by Kittenman · · Score: 2

    Military version of the shuttle, etc etc... conspiracy, etc etc ...

    --
    "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
  3. Timed with asteroid flyby by pr0t0 · · Score: 2

    Up at the same time 4179 Toutatis makes it's closest flyby? Not a coincidence. While all telescopes will be trained on the 3-mile rock gently drifting past, the true mission of the X-37B will be underway. What's that mission? Oh you know, the usual...space-aliens from Vega.

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    1. Re:Timed with asteroid flyby by X0563511 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually that sounds like an excellent opportunity to test the sensors. Can they track and get anything back from the asteroid? If you can catch a photo of an asteroid whizzing by, this tells you a lot about your effective capabilities.

      I'm impressed by the automated landing. Granted you don't have to be quite as careful as there are no meatbags inside, but it's still a damn cool feat.

      --
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    2. Re:Timed with asteroid flyby by Alomex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm impressed by the automated landing. Granted you don't have to be quite as careful as there are no meatbags inside, but it's still a damn cool feat.

      The technology for automated landing was there 30 years ago when the shuttle was being built. The astronauts complained and demanded they pilot the craft, so changes were made. If not for those the shuttle would have already been 100% automated landing.

  4. "Hidden" on top of a rocket?!? by phayes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why not use the word cowering or is that just too transparently anti-military for the axe-grinding author?

    --
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    1. Re:"Hidden" on top of a rocket?!? by sconeu · · Score: 2

      Apologies to dsinc. It's not his wording. It's the AP's wording. TFA uses "hidden".

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  5. Re:Yes.. the "mystery mini-shuttle" owned by the U by Jeng · · Score: 2

    Also, it's not a conspiracy theory if there's actually conspiring a happening.

    So does that mean it goes from a Theory to a Law?

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  6. one-quarter the size by trb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These high-tech mystery machines — 29 feet long — are about one-quarter the size of NASA's old space shuttles and can land automatically on a runway.

    The X-37B is not one-quarter the size of the Space Shuttle, it's one-quarter the length of the Space Shuttle. The launch weight of the X-37B is 5.5 tons. The launch weight of the Space Shuttle is 125 tons. This ignorance about the meaning of dimensions reminds me of the Stonehenge scene from Spinal Tap.

    1. Re:one-quarter the size by tragedy · · Score: 2

      In terms of physical dimensions, ie volume, this thing is a lot smaller than the shuttle. If it were the same shape as the space shuttle, but a quarter the length, it would have only 1/64th the volume. As it is, 29 feet isn't even one quarter of the length of the space shuttle, but instead more like 1/6th, which puts this craft at something like 1/216th the size of the space shuttle. The X-37B is comparable in size to a large consumer pickup truck. From the weight figures that have been thrown around, it's pretty clear that the X-37B is a lot denser than the shuttle, but that's probably mostly just fuel.

    2. Re:one-quarter the size by mbkennel · · Score: 2

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/World's_First_Five_Spaceplanes.PNG

      This picture gives a good scale view.

      The Shuttle Orbiter is much much bigger than the X37.

  7. Good for the USAF by Animats · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's good to see the USAF with some general-purpose space capability. They now have something that can go up to low orbit for a reasonable cost, stay up for a while, and carry a range of payloads. Useful.

  8. you do not understand by tiqui · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The shuttle rode on the side of the stack for a reason - so it could use it's three main engines for the entire climb to orbit. These engines were designed to be the best rocket engines ever developed (which meant they'd be very complex and expensive) and, therefore, to be re-usable. They were on the back of the orbiter not as an error, but precisely because that meant they would come home for re-use instead of being thrown-away on each flight. What you seem to think was a mistake, was in fact a design feature and part of the argument for making the scheme both technically and financially workable. As long as going to space requires throwing away most of the vehicle, it will remain the exclusive domain of governments and rich businesses/businessmen. Nobody but the super rich could afford to fly from NY to LA if the entire airliner was discarded during the flight and the passenger parachuted onto the LA runway in a small escape pod.

    In actual practice, nothing about the shuttle system turned out to be as cheap as initially intended; that rarely happens on the first-generation of any world-leading technology. Had we built a 2nd generation of shuttles they likely would have performed far better with lower turn-around times and costs.

  9. More wrong than right by tiqui · · Score: 2

    First, the shuttle was not a camel designed by committee, nor was it a bloated whale. In actual use, it ended-up being far cheaper to operate than the old Saturns it replaced (NASA has finally run and published the numbers now that the program is over) it just never came close to the goals that were set for it.

    NASA spent years studying many different shuttle system designs and took designs and bids from Grumman, Lockheed, Boeing, Rockwell, McDonnell Douglas, etc and compared many of these designs not just on paper but with an amazing amount of engineering analysis. In the end, they were forced by a bi-partisan political consensus (including President Nixon and the Democrats who ran congress) to choose the system with the lowest up-front development costs but the highest operational costs (they all wanted small numbers while they were in office and did not care what the numbers would be later when they'd be out of office).

    It's a common urban myth that the USAF drove the need for a delta wing; it's not true. The USAF needed that for polar launches from VAFB with aborts back to California instead of mid-ocean (need 1K miles of cross-range in that scenario because the Earth keeps turning after you launch... ) but NASA came to the conclusion that they too needed about the same capability. The USAF gets blamed for this feature only because they were smart enough to see their need first. It is true that the USAF needed the big payload bay with specific dimensions for a certain payload but here, again, the requirement was not particularly different from what NASA wanted anyway.

    Finally, the USAF did not happily turn its back on the shuttle; At the time the Challenger exploded, there was a shuttle on the pad at VAFB in California (not for launch, but for facility checkout ahead of the first California launch) and they were gearing-up for many military flights to come. The USAF was ordered to transition to other vehicles in the aftermath of the Challenger accident and investigation. Part of the investigation was a re-assessment of the risks of shuttles and that lead to a decision to abandon the use of systems like the Centaur upper stage for shuttle, which were thought to add far too much risk to an already risky vehicle. If the US had had a mush larger fleet (perhaps 10 orbiters) and the ability to remotely operate them on the riskiest missions, the USAF would likely have continued to use shuttles. As it was, there were military missions and payloads even after Challenger during the transition to EELVs.

  10. How about... by tiqui · · Score: 2

    This would be more accurate: A standard Atlas payload shroud protects the Atlas from the aerodynamics of having an asymmetrical winged vehicle on its nose during the climb to space.

    The Atlas was never designed to have a set of wings and tail fins up on its nose generating unbalance lift and drag vectors during ascent (think: arrow with tail feathers relocated to the nose). That's NOT to say that the Atlas could not handle the situation, but rather that the money has not been spent to study the matter sufficiently and to alter the flight software for the guidance system of the Atlas.

    It's also important to note that the X-37 was never designed to be exposed during ascent; the wings and tails might not be up to the loads and parts of the top might not be up to the thermal environment (things get pretty hot on the way up from air friction as you accelerate past mach 2 before you get out of the atmosphere) and the vehicle has a different orientation to the airflow from what it has during reentry). As a NASA project, the X-37 was intended to ride to orbit within the payload bay of the shuttle, where it would be deployed for its test mission and then return home on its own. It was only a test vehicle and was not intended to make many operational flights that way.