Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing Userspace Bug

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Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing Userspace Bug

Posted by timothy on Friday December 28, 2012 @01:57PM from the otherwise-of-course-I'd-be-a-kernel-rockstar dept.

An anonymous reader points out just how thick a skin it takes to be a kernel developer sometimes, linking to a chain of emails on the Linux Kernel Mailing List in which Linus lets loose on a kernel developer for introducing a change that breaks userspace apps (in this case, PulseAudio). "Shut up, Mauro. And I don't _ever_ want to hear that kind of obvious garbage and idiocy from a kernel maintainer again. Seriously. I'd wait for Rafael's patch to go through you, but I have another error report in my mailbox of all KDE media applications being broken by v3.8-rc1, and I bet it's the same kernel bug. And you've shown yourself to not be competent in this issue, so I'll apply it directly and immediately myself. WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE! Seriously. How hard is this rule to understand? We particularly don't break user space with TOTAL CRAP. I'm angry, because your whole email was so _horribly_ wrong, and the patch that broke things was so obviously crap. ... The fact that you then try to make *excuses* for breaking user space, and blaming some external program that *used* to work, is just shameful. It's not how we work," writes Linus, and that's just the part we can print. Maybe it's a good thing, but there's certainly no handholding when it comes to changes to the heart of Linux.

115 of 1,051 comments (clear)

Still.... by jimpop · 2012-12-28 14:00 · Score: 4, Funny

...a better love story than Twilight.
1. Re:Still.... by girlintraining · 2012-12-28 15:37 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  ...a better love story than Twilight.
  Well, arguably what Linus is doing is a kind of tough love. He did something dumb and he's getting flogged for it. If his ego survives, he'll be a better programmer for it. That said, Linus is too much of a net celebrity to be laying someone out like that. It makes the news, like it did here, and then it makes Linux as an operating system -- and everything that runs on it and depends on it, look bad. It's like if Balmer dragged a programmer up on stage and proceeded to flog the crap out of him for ruining something in the windows kernel -- people would be all over what a horrible platform Windows is to develop for and what a horrible company Microsoft is. And Balmer could have been totally correct in everything he said about said hypothetical programmer.
  There's some things you just don't do on the public stage; And an e-mail list is public, yes.
  
  --
  #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
2. Re:Still.... by hairyfeet · 2012-12-28 16:26 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Celeb or not I'd tell Torvalds to kiss my ass. I thought maybe that was at the end of a conversation...nope, the guy asks a simple question , one that would have taken Torvalds all of 30 seconds to explain like a rational human being, and instead he goes instantly to 11 on the douchebag scale.
  I don't give a flying fuck WHO it is, be it Torvalds or Ballmer or Cook or Ellison if someone acts like a total fucking douchebag they should be called out for it and I'm calling him out, Linus Torvalds you sir are a douchebag. you could have solved the whole fucking thing in under 30 seconds by simply explaining why "it must be thus" but instead just acted like a giant flaming prick, it was completely uncalled for, the other guy was acting complete civil and politely, therefor the asshole of the week award should be given to Torvalds for flying so completely off the handle when there was zero point in it.
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
3. Re:Still.... by Myopic · 2012-12-28 17:15 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I think it would be quite appropriate for Microsoft to track down the people responsible for Windows, and force those people to apologize to the rest of us.
4. Re:Still.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 17:43 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  This little slice of linux kernel maintainer ethos indicates code quality and its twin sister, system stability, dominate the linux kernel culture as they should. Stability is the prime directive of an operating system. Its functionality must be rock solid. However this objective is enforced, be it code review, peer presure, humiliation, restricting code checkins - it has to happen. Sometimes the uber-egos of certain developers lead them to make brash decisions, and thus have to be dampened, with a club if necessary, for the good of the tribe. In the exotic world of clashing software Prima Donnas, a suit of armor is a necessity. The victim will survive.
5. Re:Still.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 18:00 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Just like you could have made your point without saying: douchebag, ass, giant flaming prick, and asshole.
6. Re:Still.... by blind+biker · 2012-12-28 18:03 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I don't give a flying fuck WHO it is, be it Torvalds or Ballmer or Cook or Ellison if someone acts like a total fucking douchebag they should be called out for it and I'm calling him out, Linus Torvalds you sir are a douchebag. you could have solved the whole fucking thing in under 30 seconds by simply explaining why "it must be thus" but instead just acted like a giant flaming prick, it was completely uncalled for, the other guy was acting complete civil and politely, therefor the asshole of the week award should be given to Torvalds for flying so completely off the handle when there was zero point in it.
  Actually, the other guy, while being incompetent, was very manipulative, and it worked - with people like you. To be manipulative like that you have to have a lot of social intelligence, and that helps you to navigate situations in which your incompetence surfaces. Some people have little patience with such manipulations and fakery.
  
  --
  "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
7. Re:Still.... by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-28 18:25 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Or it looks like someone had a temper tantrum because he's a celebrity and doesn't have to be decent to other people.
  And the thing is, that happens. A lot. Even at microsoft. "That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard!" - Bill Gates. And that was in Paul Allens book, and apparently an oft used phrase.
  Linux lives and breathes on its contributors, if you make too many public scenes you can end up with a lot of important people and companies saying it's not worth it to contribute to, or it's not worth it to contribute to under Torvalds, that would be a very ugly mess for the entire industry. Worse still is if this sort of behaviour sets the tone for everyone else trying to be the next Linus, and they try to copy his to behavior (and that definitely happened at microsoft) and you end up with an organization full of asshole managers who no one wants to work for. At least microsoft can hold out the carrot of a fat paycheck to put up with it, Linux relies on people volunteering to help.
  Granted, it's not really a shock that Torvalds likes to... speak his mind. That's part of his thing. Still, it poses a lot of questions about the sort of person who's going to be around to succeed him if he gets hit by a bus so to speak. Certainly Tim Cook and Steve Ballmer have not been able to find the right magic replacing their more famous bosses, and one would hope Linux manages better than Apple and MS have, admittedly, those jobs are completely different.
8. Re:Still.... by sockman · 2012-12-28 19:12 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Seriously, if as an enthusiast I submitted a patch that broke user space and got a beat down from Linus I'd be a bit sad. If, as a PAID developer, I submitted a patch that broke user space AND THEN blamed the user space applications and got a beat down I'd wonder wtf am I doing writing software.
  You never, ever, blame the end user for your fuck ups. Even more so when you changed the API/ABI and fucked it up yourself.
  Linus is an ass, but when dealing with someone who goes full asshole on the user space devs over his fuck up, he was a justifiable ass.
9. Re:Still.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 19:14 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  As could you. :)
10. Re:Still.... by tezbobobo · 2012-12-28 19:49 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I don't know why you were marked as a troll. I would have the same reaction as you. Doing something stupid is not a free ticket for people to be rude. Linus was unprofessional.
11. Re:Still.... by MichaelKristopeitDad · 2012-12-28 22:44 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Doing something stupid is not a free ticket for people to be rude.
  Doing something stupid doesn't. Doing something stupid, not apologizong for it, failing to fix it in a timely manner and then blaming the stupidity on other people's code - when kernel policy clearly state it's YOUR responsibility - is much closer to the free ticket, wouldn't you say?
12. Re:Still.... by philip.paradis · 2012-12-29 00:21 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Or it looks like someone had a temper tantrum because he's a celebrity and doesn't have to be decent to other people.
  He cares more about the product being right than other peoples' opinion of him.
  
  And the thing is, that happens. A lot. Even at microsoft. "That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard!" - Bill Gates. And that was in Paul Allens book, and apparently an oft used phrase.
  Sometimes the truth hurts.
  
  Linux lives and breathes on its contributors, if you make too many public scenes you can end up with a lot of important people and companies saying it's not worth it to contribute to, or it's not worth it to contribute to under Torvalds, that would be a very ugly mess for the entire industry.
  Nope. Linus has been Linus his whole life. This "story" isn't anything new. Oddly enough, Linux keeps marching onward, with plenty of contributors who are both volunteers and paid by various corporations to contribute work.
  
  Worse still is if this sort of behaviour sets the tone for everyone else trying to be the next Linus, and they try to copy his to behavior (and that definitely happened at microsoft) and you end up with an organization full of asshole managers who no one wants to work for.
  Again, the truth hurts. Projects like these don't tolerate stupidity well, especially given the fact that it's a community effort and there has to be a lot of lack of testing and communication on the part of the responsible party when something breaks like this. The price to be paid is twofold: (1) very public expressions of the harm caused by such issues, and (2) potential relief from duties related to the issue at hand, whether temporary or permanent in nature.
  
  Granted, it's not really a shock that Torvalds likes to... speak his mind. That's part of his thing. Still, it poses a lot of questions about the sort of person who's going to be around to succeed him if he gets hit by a bus so to speak. Certainly Tim Cook and Steve Ballmer have not been able to find the right magic replacing their more famous bosses, and one would hope Linux manages better than Apple and MS have, admittedly, those jobs are completely different.
  Step right up if you can do it better or know others who can. It takes strong leadership founded on the idea that others follow you primarily for you technical ability, and secondarily for your "soft skills" to manage a technical project of this scale. Sometimes people have problems replacing their famous bosses because while the old boss may have been widely regarded as an asshole, he was an effective asshole, and numbers (whether measured in uptime, lack of showstopping functional bugs, level of attention to security issues, or profit per quarter) don't lie.
  All things considered, I saw far worse than this in my prior military service (Navy submarine force, ET-COM) in cases where somebody did something stupid that resulted in a systems failure, and oddly enough some aspects of this whole deal remind me a bit of organizational units in the services that pride themselves on putting job performance and technical ability first. Those who get butthurt about being dressed down are free to find something else to do with their time.
  
  --
  Write failed: Broken pipe
13. Re:Still.... by BrokenHalo · 2012-12-29 00:47 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  If, as a PAID developer, I submitted a patch that broke user space AND THEN blamed the user space applications and got a beat down I'd wonder wtf am I doing writing software.
  That's an interesting question, since Chehab appears to have been with RedHat for well over 4 years (also bearing in mind that RedHat has a prominent profile as an "enterprise" vendor) in a senior role and seems to be pretty well qualified. While it does appear that he fucked up big-time in making over-hasty commits, breaking userspace apps, then attempting to shift the blame, I can't help feeling a bit sorry for him.
  
  Someone with his skills should have seen the red flags and quarantined the broken code before it ever came to this performance. If he was having a bad hair day (and with no real offence intended, Linus should also be used to those), this could just be a salutary reminder that even the best of systems programmers are only human.
14. Re:Still.... by omb · 2012-12-29 00:49 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No, as most maintainers agree Tovolds was exactly right and has said the same thing at least 10'000 times on LKML, often with detailed reasoning.
  
  One of the reasons that the kernel is excellent is Linus has GOOD TASTE.
  
  That he dosn't suffer fools gladly is one of his better features, MFG, omb
15. Re:Still.... by Rich0 · 2012-12-29 01:36 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  So simply being a nice person is now manipulative because it makes people like you? Do you even realise what you're saying?
  There is nothing nice about causing harm for no reason to other people (users in this case) while smiling and talking politely.
  If somebody rear-ends my car at a light, they have caused me harm. Do I therefore get out of my car and start screaming at him to "punish" him for his sins? No, I simply call the police to have a report created, and exchange insurance info. It will no doubt cost the guy money, and his insurance company will no doubt give him incentive not to repeat the incident. But, the fact is that it was an accident - that is why we call them accidents.
  People mess up - it is a defining characteristic of humanity. Sometimes they even mess up and don't realize that they messed up. If you can't deal with this, then go do the rest of the human race a favor and have yourself committed.
  And as far as "for no reason" goes, read the entire thread. There actually was a reason for the patch, and the reason was a good one. The implementation was incorrect, but the intent was not malicious.
16. Re:Still.... by Rich0 · 2012-12-29 01:42 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Uh, Linus might have good taste in patches, but he has horrible taste in human interaction. Anybody who doesn't think so has equally horrible taste.
  The guy who made the commit wasn't a fool - he made a mistake. If he was a fool, then Linus was a fool to grant him commit access.
17. Re:Still.... by jittles · 2012-12-29 02:09 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Again, the truth hurts. Projects like these don't tolerate stupidity well, especially given the fact that it's a community effort and there has to be a lot of lack of testing and communication on the part of the responsible party when something breaks like this. The price to be paid is twofold: (1) very public expressions of the harm caused by such issues, and (2) potential relief from duties related to the issue at hand, whether temporary or permanent in nature.
  I don't believe you. Someone added a sleep to the USB-HID driver in 2.6.10. The problem is they were holding a spin lock at the time. I submitted a patch for it to every single kernel release from there until 2.6.18 when a Linux kernel developer submitted the same patch and it was accepted. It was a very simple fix. If they don't tolerate stupidity, why did they ignore my one line patch and leave a huge bug in the damn keyboard/mouse (and other devices of course) for so long? I have had zero interest in contributing to these large projects ever since, as they seem to be more about ego and status than moving the project forward.
18. Re:Still.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-29 02:58 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Imagine what it's like to be Linus' wife!
  "SHUT UP! You burnt the bagels! Take responsibility! You know our policy, no wasted food! How dare you try to blame the toaster oven for being inconsistent? We never blame inanimate appliances Just shut up! You should have been watching the toaster!"
19. Re:Still.... by gbjbaanb · 2012-12-29 03:03 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "many eyes" making the code work seem to be obsolete when you have a club that you have to be a member of before they take notice of you. Its always been this way in so many fields of human endeavour - if you're expecting the community around Linux to be different and based on technical excellence only then you have a lot to learn about people.
  The trick is to acknowledge that you're not "one of them" and approach the task of submitting your patch like this - submit the patch as normal, and then contact Linus or someone with an email humbly telling them that you've noticed a little bug that slipped through and that you've submitted a patch that you think will fix the problem - once you have their attention enough to look at the fix, they'll be ready to accept it, as if it was something they'd noticed themselves. I guess that once you've done this a couple of times, they'd accept your future patches without review.
  I know its not supposed to work that way, but it does... I'd be interested to know how you went about the submission process. It could be that they were just too busy to review all the patches that were submitted, so yours languished, un-noticed for so long.
20. Re:Still.... by 3vi1 · 2012-12-29 03:19 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Your analogy is flawed. It was the users that were rear-ended, not Torvalds. Torvalds is the judge throwing the book at the driver who rear-ended you when he keeps trying to say it was all *your* fault.
21. Re:Still.... by swillden · 2012-12-29 05:05 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Nope. Linus has been Linus his whole life. This "story" isn't anything new. Oddly enough, Linux keeps marching onward, with plenty of contributors who are both volunteers and paid by various corporations to contribute work.
  It's more than that.
  Linux powers tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars worth of systems. It's unbelievably huge, and it's almost inconceivable that all of the megacorporations whose business depends so deeply on it didn't snatch control of the whole thing away from the lone kid who started it as a hobby project long ago. I mean, who would have predicted that even after it had become so important, Linux would still be maintained by the one guy who started it, rather than some joint committee of top-tier OS engineers -- probably dominated by IBM?
  Not only is that not what's happened, but as far as I can see none of those megacorps even try to tell Linus what to do. They submit patches, humbly formatted and refactored into the form Linus wants, and they butter him up with conference tickets, free hardware and the like, and they even compete for the right to pay him a salary.
  Why is that? Because whatever anyone says about him, his style, his attitude, his people skills or even his code... the results are fantastic. Linux not only works very well, it does so across an amazing variety of hardware platforms, and the design -- and Linus' good taste and fanatical attention to detail -- have proven to be able to support virtually any new idea that's worth implementing.
  Love Linus or hate him... don't mess it up. Luckily, Linus is an egotistical bastard who doesn't care what anyone thinks anyway, so mere words aren't likely to change anything.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
22. Re:Still.... by swillden · 2012-12-29 05:12 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Seriously, if as an enthusiast I submitted a patch that broke user space and got a beat down from Linus I'd be a bit sad.
  As an "enthusiast" your userspace-breaking patch would never have made it to Linus. It would have had to go through the maintainer of its respective subsystem -- and perhaps more than one -- who would have caught the problem and told you to fix it. Likely much more nicely.
  What happened here was a senior, experienced submitter did something really dumb, and it was a huge problem because he was sufficiently trusted not to do such dumb things that there was no one watching closely enough to catch it. Linus doesn't have enough hours in the day to thoroughly review everything that comes through, he has to make judgment calls based on the degree of trust he has in the source. Mauro let him down in a big way, then compounded it by trying to make excuses for it.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
23. Re:Still.... by Antique+Geekmeister · 2012-12-29 06:44 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  He did apologize for it, quite quickly, and agreed that reverting the change was appropriate. He also asked a good question: why can't pulseaudio deal with other error codes, error codes that might be technically correct, though not in current use?
  The developer wasn't being nasty, underhanded, manipulative, etc. It's possible to break user land by fixing broken behavior that userland depends on, and it's been an ongoing issue for all kernels. (Take a look at the history of the egcs variant compiler and Linux kernel compilation.)
24. Re:Still.... by swillden · 2012-12-29 08:00 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  This sounds so gimp like. Like a teen at school trying to get in with the popular set. Or Dobby from Harry Potter.
  It's just pragmatism. For every programmer competent to work on the kernel there are a thousand wannabes, so some vetting process is required. In companies, this is done via resumes and interviews -- and then generally by giving new software engineers projects of low importance so you can vet their work before trusting them with stuff that could break the business. Same thing, just a different context.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
25. Re:Still.... by Gramie2 · 2012-12-30 02:10 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Given that Tove, his wife, is a six-time Finnish karate champion, I think that he might consider taking a softer tone.
Arsehole by GrahamCox · 2012-12-28 14:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Winning friends and influencing people since 1983.

Seriously, who'd put up with this crap? There are nicer ways to make ones way through life.
1. Re:Arsehole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 14:05 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I wish my boss would show the same concern for the quality of our software, and scream at the programmers that break it every day. Unfortunately it doesn't happen, and other programmers end up fixing the broken code (and quietly grumbling) because otherwise they would not be able to do their jobs.
  Sometimes harsh words can send a message better than a general "please check your code before you commit".
2. Re:Arsehole by fredprado · 2012-12-28 14:08 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  He isn't trying to make friends. He is trying to manage the efforts to implement a particularly complex piece of software, whilst hearing bullshit from one of his developers who made a very big mistake.
  
  Everybody makes mistakes, but the right posture when it was obviously your fault is to take the blame and learn from them, not to try and make excuses.
3. Re:Arsehole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 14:29 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Ahh, you think linux developers aren't paid, that's precious.
4. Re:Arsehole by jjohnson · 2012-12-28 14:30 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Of course, neither harsh words nor general "please check" encomiums are as good as calmly, straightforwardly stating "we do it this specific way, you did it that way instead, as a result we have this undesirable result. Do it again, correctly. In the future, check X, Y and Z to ensure that you don't repeat this mistake."
  Only in the socially retarded world of /. is this sort of behaviour lauded because the best behaviour that I described above seems too goddamned difficult to manage.
  
  --
  Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
5. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 14:35 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I think the point is, Linus would rather the guy not do any work than to continue to produce such garbage code. He would rather make every change himself, than to rely on fellow-programmers who will only make things worse.
  
  And that's understandable. Bad programmers will cost you more time than they save.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
6. Re:Arsehole by amiga3D · 2012-12-28 14:37 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  While I agree somewhat with what you say I have to say that sometimes it is necessary to chew people out. I don't know what the situation is or the personality of the maintainer but people are different. What works with some doesn't with others. I have supervised people in a maintenance environment and while some just needed to be told what to do and let them run with it there were others that had to be kickstarted. Some people do actually benefit from a good ass chewing.
7. Re:Arsehole by Zeussy · 2012-12-28 14:40 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Do we have the full story here? Has the maintainer done this repeatedly, or was this his first mistake? We are all human.
  
  --
  Automation - The Car Company Tycoon Game
8. Re:Arsehole by dcollins · 2012-12-28 14:45 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  "Only in the socially retarded world of /. is this sort of behaviour lauded because the best behaviour that I described above seems too goddamned difficult to manage."
  Tut, tut, good sir. Next time please do try to deliver your observations in more civilized and diplomatic language.
  
  --
  We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
9. Re:Arsehole by Hal_Porter · 2012-12-28 14:48 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  How technical do I need to be before I can get away with telling people to "SHUT THE FUCK UP!". Script monkey? OS Kernel developer?
  Actually it has nothing to do with technical ability. You can tell people to shut the fuck up if you're not in a position to get fired when your boss finds out. I.e. you own the company or, like Linus, you are Benevolent Dictator For Life on some open source project.
  Of course - as Ulrich Drepper found out - even Benevolent Dictators For Life can look out of the window and see that the peasants are tearing down their statues, Ceausescu style. And most people reading this would get shitcanned from their sysadmin job a lot quicker than that for not jumping when their boss tells them.
  Really the tech world would be a lot more pleasant if people didn't conflate rudeness and technical competence. Most people seem to master the rudeness, neglect the technical competence and then wonder why they are undervalued.
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
10. Re:Arsehole by Coeurderoy · 2012-12-28 14:54 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  come on it's pulse audio related, of course people get nervous, angry and easily irritated ...
11. Re:Arsehole by TrekkieGod · 2012-12-28 14:55 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  He isn't trying to make friends. He is trying to manage the efforts to implement a particularly complex piece of software, whilst hearing bullshit from one of his developers who made a very big mistake. Everybody makes mistakes, but the right posture when it was obviously your fault is to take the blame and learn from them, not to try and make excuses.
  You can't fix unprofessionalism by being unprofessional. Linus's response is uncalled for, and if anyone I work for ever tells me to shut the fuck up, he can start looking for my replacement, and won't ever need to hear me speak up again.
  I agree with Linus's reasoning for why it's really a kernel bug, not a pulseaudio bug. The correct way of handling this would be to simply say, "you need to own up to this thing, because it's our policy that any kernel changes that breaks userspace applications is our problem. Fix this now." If for some reason this is a constant issue with the guy, than you remove him from that role as maintainer, but based on the lkml thread and the responses from Mauro, it seems Mauro had good reason to believe some things would remain broken after reverting the changes to the kernel, so he was just trying to understand the problem better. He behaved professionally, calmly explaining his position and agreeing with Linus about his mistake, on the face of having an adult throwing a tamper tantrum at him. Kudos to his patience, I don't share it. You simply could not pay me enough to work with someone who very publicly disrespected me in the way Linus did with him.
  
  --
  Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
12. Re:Arsehole by MacGyver2210 · 2012-12-28 14:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I would happily put up with that and more just for the credit of being one of the select few who get to work on the kernel. To have the ear of the man(or team) that gets to decide the direction it goes for the future.
  I guarantee you I'd never make that same mistake again. I'm sure if he hadn't tried to blame the user Linus would have been a little nicer about it.
  
  --
  If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
13. Re:Arsehole by BasilBrush · 2012-12-28 15:02 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I think the point is, Linus would rather the guy not do any work than to continue to produce such garbage code. He would rather make every change himself, than to rely on fellow-programmers who will only make things worse.
  There's a term for people with attitudes like this; who express them by public tantrums: A Prima Donna.
14. Re:Arsehole by bmo · 2012-12-28 15:02 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  >Really the tech world would be a lot more pleasant if people didn't conflate rudeness and technical competence.
  The thing is that Linus is technically competent. He's in the 1% of technically competent people, so his "benevolent dictator for life" status is not changing any time soon. His ability to herd cats is manifested in his managing the Kernel for as long as he has. I'm sure if you approached Linus when he was 19 and told him that he was going to be managing one of the most important software projects on the planet for more than 20 years, he'd tell you that you were nuts.
  But here we are, and Linus is 43, and he's been doing this for quite a long time and Linus *doesn't* have a reputation for being a firebrand. And honestly, to even call Linus rude ignores the fact that when he's rude, it's actually news. Unlike Theo, who is just rude all the time, so it's never news.
  --
  BMO
15. Re:Arsehole by Austerity+Empowers · 2012-12-28 15:06 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  His attitude is bullshit, his intent is not.
  That said, it's really not clear why this was on a kernel dev mailing list and not in 1:1 emails. One would hope this sort of public thrashing is the last result of frustrated people.
16. Re:Arsehole by Lehk228 · 2012-12-28 15:08 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  it wasn't the mistake that set him off, read the exchange, it was the making excuses and blaming the application for behaving incorrectly when it got impossible results back from the kernel
  
  true, an application in theory COULD be prepared to respond to all potential errors, as long as you don't mind a 200 megabyte binary for hello world
  
  --
  Snowden and Manning are heroes.
17. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 15:09 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  There's a term for people with attitudes like this; who express them by public tantrums: A Prima Donna.
  Linus isn't a Prima Donna. A Prima Donna is someone who wants to draw attention to herself. Linus is not like that, he's perfectly willing to stay in the background and write code.
  
  However, he doesn't tolerate incompetence or idiots; his flaw is not knowing how to communicate that in a polite way, and being a bit hasty to judge. Which is different than a prima donna.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
18. Re:Arsehole by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2012-12-28 15:10 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  The rant wasn't about bad code, but a bad mindset. It was an apt response to Chehab's disregard for the integrity of existing Linux applications.
  It also wasn't really aimed at Mauro Chehab. Even the worst manager knows better than to discipline an individual employee in front of his/her peers, right? No, that flame was aimed at the entire mailing list. Linus obviously felt it necessary to drive the point home in a conspicuous way that wouldn't be forgotten or blown off.
  If there were still people at Microsoft with the technical and moral authority to send emails like that, the company's flatlined stock price graph would look very different.
19. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 15:11 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  That said, it's really not clear why this was on a kernel dev mailing list and not in 1:1 emails.
  
  So that anyone else who thinks of making a similar mistake will think twice.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
20. Re:Arsehole by jamesh · 2012-12-28 15:17 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I think the point is, Linus would rather the guy not do any work than to continue to produce such garbage code. He would rather make every change himself, than to rely on fellow-programmers who will only make things worse.
  There's a term for people with attitudes like this; who express them by public tantrums: A Prima Donna.
  Ok, I'll bite: How is an email in a private mailing list a "public tantrum"?
  LKML is hardly a "private mailing list", given that anyone can read it, and anyone can subscribe to it. There's even a link to a public archive in TFS.
21. Re:Arsehole by verbatim · 2012-12-28 15:22 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  It's more insidious than that.
  If Linus coddles people, they get a false sense of approval. His brash, direct, and overtly emotional tone is intentional. It's to let the other party know exactly how he feels without accidentally leading them into a false sense of "oh, keep working on it and I'll approve it."
  Watch that video where he flips off Nvidia.
  He describes how being nice to people is the wrong approach, and makes things worse when the other side gets the wrong view, is rejected after months of effort in the wrong direction, and then Linus gets the blame for their suicide.
  If he was paying them, he could fire them. He doesn't have that luxury, so he has to be clear and direct.
  Don't like it? too bad. That's Linus, and he makes no excuses for how he behaves.
  
  --
  Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
22. Re:Arsehole by lightknight · 2012-12-28 15:26 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Hmm, the mental demands and sleep deprivation are right on target. Don't know about people trying to blow you up or kill you, but then, I haven't had a chance to work on jet control software or the like (presumably when the military's latest and greatest aircraft falls out of the sky because of a software bug, there are probably quite a few people considering killing you, especially if those onboard are harmed / killed).
  
  --
  I am John Hurt.
23. Re:Arsehole by QuietLagoon · 2012-12-28 15:31 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I wish my boss would show the same concern for the quality of our software, and scream at the programmers that break it every day. Unfortunately it doesn't happen...
  Sure, it does happen. I have fired programmers who could not do their job. The firing was done in my office with the door closed. I did not post news of the firing on the internal company forums. I did not drag the body through the streets as an example.
  .
  Why do you rationalize poor management techniques as an excuse for poor management?
24. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 15:38 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  I would happily put up with that and more just for the credit of being one of the select few who get to work on the kernel.
  It's not that hard, go find some hardware that isn't supported yet (or even that's not supported very well, like a lot of sound cards), and start writing drivers. If your code is decent, it will be accepted.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
25. Re:Arsehole by Kneo24 · 2012-12-28 15:44 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  No level of "professionalism" will make most people understand how badly they screwed up when they screwed up badly. I have personally tried the professional route numerous times, only for the message to not get across. At that point your subordinates think you're a push over and that the problem wasn't that serious. Do what Linus did here when it's important and only when its important and you will accomplish two things. The first of course is getting your point across clearly. The second is that you don't tolerate any BS when someone has clearly screwed up.
26. Re:Arsehole by haruchai · 2012-12-28 15:56 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  And his attitude isn't that unusual for men in charge. Gates has done it as has Jobs and Ballmer.
  
  --
  Pain is merely failure leaving the body
27. Re:Arsehole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 15:59 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  No, don't confuse narcissism for good management. Not the same.
28. Re:Arsehole by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2012-12-28 16:08 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Pics or it didn't happen. Apple had Asshole-in-Chief Stephen P. Jobs with the technical and moral authority to do exactly that. And guess what? OS X took almost a decade before it was anything other than crap.
  That's an interesting way of phrasing your point, because of the parallels that can be drawn with Linux itself. Linux has been "crap" for well over a decade, in the sense that it has never made much headway against competing OSes in some key markets. In the past, Linux's competitors -- from Apple, Microsoft, and Sun to vendors of RTOSes that everybody uses but few people have heard of -- were all just too effective at meeting the needs of their customers.
  Right now things are finally looking up for Linux. Android is proving to be a key player, if not the key player, in the most important and most promising sector in mass-market computing. Meanwhile, Apple is hell-bent on repeating every mistake from its proprietary past, making its usual heroic effort to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. At Microsoft, there's a certified Sales Guy(tm) in charge, beneficiary of the luckiest dorm-room assignment in history. Right now Ballmer's monkey-see-monkey-do act is stampeding the company's herd of very valuable sheep, from Valve to Dell. Seismic changes are happening underfoot, some visible to the casual observer and others not.
  In short, Linux's enemies are making mistakes at an utterly unprecedented rate. Leadership and vision are important, but given Apple's and Microsoft's behavior of late, it will be enough for Linus to keep his eye on the ball and his mind on the needs of the end user. The future of personal and mobile computing is up for grabs to an extent that hasn't been true since the early 1980s. All he has to do is not fuck up.
  This email thread was about just that: the need to not fuck up.
29. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 16:09 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  And his attitude isn't that unusual for men in charge. Gates has done it as has Jobs and Ballmer.
  Yeah, actually.
  
  And getting it right is surprisingly difficult. His primary goal is to communicate, "you did something incredibly stupid, and are in danger of getting kicked out of the team."
  
  How do you communicate something like that without sounding rude? It is possible, and if you can do it then you might have a future as a diplomat, but not many people can do it. Developing those skills while simultaneously developing the skills to be a kernel programming lead is not very common.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
30. Re:Arsehole by dbIII · 2012-12-28 16:18 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Sometimes polite doesn't work. You don't tell a welder that their weld is just not quite right and to please do it again if it's not too much trouble. You tell them it's fucked and to grind it out and do it again before everything falls down and kills someone. That's an extreme case, but it's still a good example to show that polite doesn't always get a message across.
  From the summary it appears to be at the end of a string of failed communication, in which case being blunt can be very appropriate.
31. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 16:27 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Yeah, and in this case, Mauro was already looking bad, he had embarrassed himself badly by making a technical mistake and trying to justify it, and Linus was telling him to shape up.
  
  A hockey analogy would be if your teammate took a shot at his own goal, then tried to blame someone else, are you going to talk to him nicely or are you going to punch him in the face and tell him to cut it out?
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
32. Re:Arsehole by AuMatar · 2012-12-28 16:30 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Bullshit. If someone is fucking up (especially repeatedly), the boss should talk to him. Not scream at him- talk in a professional manner. Or let him go, if the mistakes are bad enough. You do not disrespect your employees by screaming them- it solves nothing, causes workplace friction, lowers morale of both the one being screamed at, the one screaming, and their coworkers. Its counterproductive.
  If my boss came to my office and calmly told me I fucked up, I'd immediately jump on the problem and fix it. If my boss came in screaming at me, I'd tell him to get the fuck out, send an email to HR detailing his unacceptable behavior causing a hostile work environment and go home- telling him I'd return upon getting a sincere apology, and that I would expect full pay for every day in the interim. Oh, and my resumes would be on the net that evening. If he really pissed me off I'd go to his boss and tell him its me or him and I want a decision by the end of the day. There is no excuse for not behaving like an adult in the workplace.
  
  --
  I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
33. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 16:47 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  You mean like when he said,
  
  That's one hell of a good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix. I can only hope (and assume) that Amoeba doesn't suck like minix does.
  Nope, that was when he was still in Finland. Not a cultural thing, apparently.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
34. Re:Arsehole by arth1 · 2012-12-28 16:48 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Linus hates ethnic minorities. He sees daily what they are doing to his beloved homeland and regrets that he has to work with them.
  Don't feed the trolls, they say. But in this case, there may be a few readers here that don't know that Linus Torvalds belongs to an ethnic minority of Finland - the Swedish speaking minority who are not always well accepted in either Finland or Sweden.
  And, of course, that after moving to the US, he's still in an ethnic minority. Perhaps even more so.
35. Re:Arsehole by jhoegl · 2012-12-28 17:06 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I find it odd that you guys are lashing out at Linus.
  First off this is Linus's project, his name on this project, and a bug that would not look well for his project.
  Secondly the programmer in question screwed up, and instead of admitting it and asking for help, he blames others. (read, programmer has a big ego)
  Linus called him out on it, and the programmer should take it, because the programmer caused the issues.
  
  In short, this whole thing happened because of the programmer, not Linus.
36. Re:Arsehole by tftp · 2012-12-28 17:19 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You don't tell a welder that their weld is just not quite right and to please do it again if it's not too much trouble. You tell them it's fucked and to grind it out and do it again before everything falls down and kills someone.
  I'm not sure how you manage your welders, but I would go about like this:
  "Bill, this bead is too shallow. It won't bear the load. The bottom of the weld is cold, and there is no metal there. You will have to grind it out and redo. This weld will be inspected with X-ray to make sure you do it right this time. We will have to pay you overtime, by law, for this. But if you do it again there will be no overtime - you will get your final check instead. The reason is that if these welds fail someone will be killed. It is that important. Please do your best."
  This explains the problem, explains what to do to correct, and also spells out the consequences for continued bad work. It ends with an encouragement; you never want to end the conversation with a threat. But the overall content of the message is exactly the same as yours, and the welder will not feel offended. He will feel ashamed of his poor work. It won't make him happy, but by the end of the day he will know that I was right - actually, as soon as he grinds his superficial bead away and exposes the unwelded groove.
  And if in my opinion the guy is hopeless I will simply summon HR to have him dismissed right away. There is no need to offend him by telling him that he is an idiot. He may well be, but it's not in my interest to infuriate people. I simply don't have a use of him anymore. Nothing personal.
  In that aspect, try to not enrage your welders when you chew them up at a height of 100 storeys. It's a long fall to the ground, and people do see red when they are angry.
37. Re:Arsehole by fredprado · 2012-12-28 18:07 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  And then Bill comes and says:
  
  "It is not my fault boss, the beads are totally fine, the fault is that they shouldn't be putting the load where they always did, and where it worked before, they should put the load now in this nice little place I arbitrarily chose. Anywhere else the thing will fall apart, but it is their fault."
38. Re:Arsehole by BitZtream · 2012-12-28 18:08 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  And getting code accepted != kernel maintainer.
  This guy (Mauro) is trusted to make commits to the kernel without direct hard core review by Linus. If I make a code change to V4L and it gets accepted to the kernel, it goes through Mauro, not Linus.
  Theres a big difference between me committing code and me being a reviewer who is trusted to know what I'm doing rather than just some code monkey that someone else checks out first.
  
  --
  Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
39. Re:Arsehole by Excelcia · 2012-12-28 18:53 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No. This isn't because Linus can't fire him. This wasn't Linus carefully picking his words to get his point across. This was an out of control rant and his explanations about that being his style are ones I do not accept as valid. They seem to be nothing more than excuses for a criminal lack of self discipline.
  Mr. Chehab is either competent and made a mistake, or he is not competent and this is chronic. In the latter case, I can understand frustration, but this is exactly what self discipline is for. Because even if it was total incompetence, anger is not ever a valid response to incompetency. I bolded that because it's important. It's never appropriate in response to incompetence. Never. Not by anybody. Regardless of your self-professed management style. Regardless of the stakes. It is a failure of one's personal self discipline, and it is always... always self defeating.
  Anger is a proper response in the face of willfulness or maliciousness. And looking at the thread, and in reading quite a number of other threads involving Mr. Chehab, it is clear that he was being neither willful nor malicious. Anger is part of the "fight or flight". It's an adjunct to combat, and the words Linus used were clearly combative. Combat is a response to combat - otherwise you are being an aggressor. In other words, Linus was being nothing more than a schoolyard bully picking on someone for no better reason than he could. It's that simple.
  You can be stern, uncompromising, and even lay out consequences for ongoing failure without the anger and get the point across just as well. Here is how Linus' letter should have read:
  
  Are you saying that pulseaudio is entering on some weird loop if the returned value is not -EINVAL? That seems a bug at pulseaudio.
  Mauro, this sounds like excuse-making.
  It's a bug alright - in the kernel. You've been a kernel maintainer too long to not know that the first rule of kernel maintenance is that if a change results in user programs breaking then it's a bug in the kernel. We never EVER blame the user programs. Don't do that again.
  To make matters worse, the entire commit (f0ed2ce840b3) is substandard. You know that ENOENT is not a valid error return from an ioctl. Never has been, never will be. ENOENT means "No such file and directory", and is for path operations. ioctl's are done on files that have already been opened, there's no way that ENOENT would ever be valid.
  
  So, on a first glance, this doesn't sound like a regression, but, instead, it looks tha pulseaudio/tumbleweed has some serious bugs and/or regressions.
  I don't want to see this sort of excuse-making from a kernel maintainer again.
  I'm going to apply Rafael's patch directly myself. My taking time and effort to apply fixes directly for problems you've introduced means your work has reduced overall efficiency. Make sure that doesn't happen again.
  Seriously.
  WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE!
  I'm frustrated because your whole email was wrong, and the patch that broke things was substandard. The fact that you seem to try to make *excuses* for breaking user space and blame some external program that *used* to work, is just not how we work.
  A Better Linus
40. Re:Arsehole by whois · 2012-12-28 19:01 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I self censor my emails all the time. You wouldn't believe how many long diatribes I've thrown away. How many heart felt impassioned speeches I've given up on as offensive or too harsh. I guess in some ways it makes the harsh emails I do send that much more potent. The point I'm trying to make is that it must take a special kind of person to stand up in front of more than 100,000 people and say "you're a moron, shut up!"
  He either realizes that this would cause a big fallout where his statement would be examined in detail by everyone on the mailing list + everyone on slashdot and a few other communities and just doesn't care; or he somehow hits the send button without ever realizing the consequences.
  I think it's the former, and despite his outburst he's still managed to steer the Linux community through 20 years of massive evolutionary changes in computing. It seems that even with armchair analysts saying he could get the job done without yelling, maybe should attempt the same thing, building a peaceful community of kernel hackers with no tyrant at the top and figure out a way to measure productivity, code quality and other metrics.
41. Re:Arsehole by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 19:20 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Strangely, your method would make me want to punch you in the face more than what Linux wrote.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
This is somewhat related... by Lisias · 2012-12-28 14:01 · Score: 5, Funny

This is somewhat related with this Linus' post on G+?

--
Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
Don't piss off the boss by YrWrstNtmr · 2012-12-28 14:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

Make a screwup this major, and this is what you get.
1. Re:Don't piss off the boss by flargleblarg · 2012-12-28 14:31 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  A leader need not be paying to be boss.
not good management technique by mbkennel · 2012-12-28 14:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's just a kernel patch, nothing to be actually "angry" about. Why so emotional? And especially when it's somebody who is not an employee.
Just say, "It is our firm policy that we do not break XXX, even when any given developer wishes they could. If you wish to continue contributing, you must follow the policy. Please apply the fix ASAP and acknowledge your understanding of these conditions."
1. Re:not good management technique by fredprado · 2012-12-28 14:11 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Because the guy screwed up and tried to make excuses. At his position Linus does not have to put with childish behavior from his staff, he can choose who works with him.
2. Re:not good management technique by mbkennel · 2012-12-28 14:20 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "At his position Linus does not have to put with childish behavior from his staff"
  a) it wasn't his staff, it was somebody from Redhat. And even if it were....
  b) Linus was the only childish one getting all pantytied and emotional.
  Did you read the rest of the thread? And how the other people responded?
  It seems to be a complicated issue. The other people acknowledged the bug but showed it in context of some rather difficult hardware & driver issues across multiple areas.
3. Re:not good management technique by phantomfive · 2012-12-28 15:16 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  No, if you bother to read the rest of the thread, the guy had a good and valid reason that makes sense
  No he didn't. Sound worked, and after his patch, sound didn't work. Why would you ever commit a patch that breaks sound?
  
  In his case, he did it because he is trying to add drivers for new hardware that behaves differently than a lot of other hardware. That's not a good and valid reason to break stuff that already works.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
4. Re:not good management technique by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 17:18 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  It's not like he wrote a patch with a changelog of "Break sound. Users have had functional audio capability for far too long."
  It was a bug in the patch which broke the kernel interface (by returning different error codes), which was not the intended effect of the patch. Laurent Pinchart, the author of the patch, explained in the thread:
  
  The patch uses the -ENOENT error code internally in the uvcvideo driver to
  inform the caller function (internal to the driver) that the requested control
  doesn't exist. It was never meant to be returned out of the driver, and
  definitely not to userspace. This is clearly a bug.
  The reason Mauro Chehab got chewed out was because he refused to acknowledge that it was a kernel bug, didn't see anything wrong with a sudden change in the kernel return value, and then proceeded to blame pulseaudio for not handling it. That's why, other than his patch being called "total and utter CRAP" and "incredibly broken shit", Laurent was not mentioned in the email, whereas Mauro was told to shut up and called out as flat out incompetent.
I wonder by BeTeK · 2012-12-28 14:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

I Wonder how often these kind of conversations are held inside of a corporation and never see light of day. At least GNU movement is candid and open about the kind of mishaps.
1. Re:I wonder by Anrego · 2012-12-28 15:00 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  To be honest, I wish it happened more.
  I _wish_ management where I am cared about quality at this level. It would be worth getting chewed out once in a while to know that stupid bugs are not tolerated.
2. Re:I wonder by __aaltlg1547 · 2012-12-28 15:20 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Infrequently. I've seen somebody get hit that hard a handful of times in 20 years. I've had to do it myself twice. (There have been other lower-level chastisements.) Once I was the point man for a major reaming of a contractor that had been deceiving us for months about multiple issues. The other time was a guy that had been concealing his lack of progress on a project I was directing.
  When somebody has engaged in completely unacceptable behavior, it's absolutely necessary to do at least one of two things: (1) get them off your project or (2) otherwise make them understand why such behavior cannot be tolerated. The latter is only an option if you believe the person is able and can be convinced to learn from their mistakes.
  Doing it by email is a mistake and Linus can be criticized for that and, IMO, that alone. This is the kind of conversation you have face to face if you can and by phone if you can't.
if only more technical leads had this mindset by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 14:10 · Score: 3, Informative

yes it is brutal this email thread is in the public. but the mindset linus has about the process is what separates the really good teams for the everyday teams. i had the opportunity to work on three different commercial unix operating system teams and this mindset is consistent with the teams that hit schedule with the appropriate quality.
1. Re:if only more technical leads had this mindset by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 14:23 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I have a "chain of clients" theory of system design.
  The kernel developers protect the library developers from having to deal with the hardware.
  The library developers protect the applications developers from having to deal with the kernel.
  The applications developers protect the users from having to deal with all of the above.
  Everyone has shit to deal with, but if you break the chain and let some of your shit spill into another layer, then someone else has to deal with way more shit than they can reasonably be expected to handle.
Not the bug... by Tau+Neutrino · 2012-12-28 14:10 · Score: 5, Informative

It wasn't really the bug that set Linus off. At least not in my reading of the post. It was Mauro's cavalier attitude toward the bug. He tried to shrug it off as a problem with pulseaudio, when it clearly was a bug that he had introduced.

I'm not a big fan of this style of management, but I can't fault any of the content of Linus' rant.

--
Lemmings are silly; dinosaurs are extinct.
1. Re:Not the bug... by krinderlin · 2012-12-28 14:35 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  That was my reading exactly. As a programmer, I've had to condition my responses to bug reports to move from, "What?! It's totally your fault!" to, "Let me investigate this on my end." It became fairly obvious from the get go that the patch made some changes that were overlooked in the patch. The patch commit message failed to give any reason or justification for the change (which was a 1 line change, possibly in a sea of other changes). Furthermore, the automated testing application that the patch submitter was using had a bug in it.
  It's likely the testing apparatus said, "OMG! THIS ERROR VALUE IS WRONG!" Then, the submitter corrected it to fit the bad test. Honestly, while Rafael signed off on it, it would appear the submitter set him up the bomb, so to speak. Who would make a change like that without further investigation and then submit it is a serious question. I would hope the patch submitter is placed under some additional scrutiny.
  All in all, Rafael took it in stride in his response. He also explained further, but appears to have capitulated that his initial reaction was wrong and that he should have fixed first, asked "Why are you using that, anyway?" later. Also, he should have never stated that, "So, on a first glance, this doesn't sound like a regression, but, instead, it looks that pulseaudio/tumbleweed has some serious bugs and/or regressions." It's quite obvious that changing not only what error code is returned but returning one that was literally impossible without telling anyone is a Bad Thing(TM).
  As for Linus's style of management, I don't know. I mean, Rafael was way, way, way out of line with that statement I quoted. He really failed to grasp the situation, even after it was clearly spelled out for him.
  All in all, I think he's learned his lesson and will be better for it. He seems to have taken it well enough, at least publicly. :-)
2. Re:Not the bug... by krinderlin · 2012-12-28 14:41 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  No. He clearly stated that he saw this, "at first glance," as something that Pulseaudio had been doing all along. The patch made a function not only return a different error code, but an error code that was never possible before the patch. The change was not documented, at all.
  The submitter really set him up, though. If you look further up in the thread, the "rollback" was a simple one line change from ret = -ENOENT; to ret = -ENVAL;. I'm fairly certain that it was just overlooked in the code review for the entire patch.
  What got him was that instead of going back and saying, "Huh. Why did we change this error code? Oh my, ENOENT was never even possible before this. This'll break all sorts of crap!" he blamed Pulseaudio. That's a serious no-no that's been covered several times in the history of the kernel.
3. Re:Not the bug... by Kjella · 2012-12-28 15:39 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I don't think you quite got it, as I understand it they have more error states internally than they do in the kernel API. The patch was designed to pass an internal error state that should have been replaced by the one in the kernel API before being returned but was accidentally pushed to userspace as well and the bug in the compliance tool meant they didn't notice. So far nothing majorly wrong, a poor patch and a testing tool with less than 100% coverage which caused a nasty bug to reach the first RC, a little sloppy but nothing that obviously should have been caught. The reason Linus gets so fired up is because it just doesn't matter what pulseaudio/tumbleweed is doing, there's zillions of applications out there who may be doing something crazy. If you broke one application you probably broke many more and it just doesn't matter, it's the kernel's fault.
  It's been a cornerstone of Linux for as long as I can remember, you can always upgrade your kernel and all your applications will continue to work, period. New APIs are of course added but old userspace APIs are forever. It just doesn't matter how crazy the userspace code is, you don't break it anyway and even if they fixed their crazy code it doesn't solve the problem which is that there'd be two kernels with different behavior So even if he was right, he's still wrong.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
necessary by Narcocide · 2012-12-28 14:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

can't let shit like that fly. i think Linus did the right thing in the circumstances. i have wished no less than 1000 times over the years that my own various bosses would have shown that they even gave half as much of a crap about utterly unacceptable coding being released into production by my own co-workers.
This is not news. by JonniLuv · 2012-12-28 14:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

Seriously, someone makes a coding mistake in a pre-release kernel, there's a heated e-mail chain about it, and now it's on /. Why?
Re:Linus is an asshat, imho by godrik · 2012-12-28 14:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

I actually disaggree. This is not a private company where you are trying to spare people's feeling. It is a case of "you screw up, you get yelled at." Because it is a publicly managed project, the yelling happens in public. It also set the standard for every single other developper. The next time a user space bug is introduced. The kernel developer will not try to swipe it under the rug.
I could kiss the guy... by Qybix · 2012-12-28 14:29 · Score: 5, Insightful

I am so tempted to kiss the guy! Linux can't have this type of _OBVIOUS_ audio sabotage at the kernel level if we expect game developers to ever make their products available on Linux. Linus NEEDS to reign this in, we just can't afford it. He is 110% right.
Keep the helm firm, man! That's exactly what we need!
Qybix

--
Qybix ----- I do not have a belief system; I'm an Anti-theist and proud of it! Saying that not believing in anything i
1. Re:I could kiss the guy... by VortexCortex · 2012-12-28 18:45 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  As an application developer (and game developer by night), I concur. Test the patches before submitting them upstream. If you don't understand what the patches do, you don't approve them. Hell, that's the same requirement I have for all code in my projects. Even if it's a comment or whitespace change, you compile and (unit) test the module before committing it. It's a pretty brain dead rule of thumb: If you don't know what the fuck you're doing, don't do it! It's when you pretend to know more than you do that you get in trouble. The stupid thing is that there's no excuse for not knowing -- If all else fails, you ask the submitter who sent you the patch.
  Also, take Linus' wrath with a grain of salt. He enjoys being blunt and offending those that get offended. His opinion is that you can't actually offend someone, they have to take offense themselves. He get's most pissed when he knows he's right. He accepts people calling him stupid when they're right and he's wrong, like in this talk where he gives the finger to Nvida devs... WRT an early version of the Linux kernel: "We didn't have init. We don't need init, just a boot image and root console, that's how real men do it... Then someone came along and said, 'This is stupid, you need init', and they added init" -- I'm paraphrasing, that's pretty much how I remember it from the video. Sorry, too lazy to re-watch and find the exact quote. Also contained therein is his position on being harsh...
  Also, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Ballmer -- Come on, they're all notorious as being harsh At least Linus isn't parking in handy cap spaces, or throwing chairs like a real asshole.
Re:I love linux but... by Richy_T · 2012-12-28 14:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

There are some people who you could site down with and explain things for two hours and they would still go away and do their own thing. IT is particularly full of people like this (and I'm aware of and try to avoid my own inclinations in this direction). Sometimes, you just have to make it clear that something is important and that means raising the temperature even as (and especially as) you remain in control internally.
This is also a valuable parenting skill. I don't think that that's entirely coincidental.
Dude needs to read Dale Carnegie... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-28 14:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

I wouldn't speak to anyone that way unless I never wanted to see them again. Shaming someone in public like this is a way to not only get them to quit, but to make a permanent enemy out of them.
What this tells me is that Linus is better suited to be a cult leader than a manager of any kind.
Re:The answer to Linus' comment ... by Lord+Kano · 2012-12-28 14:59 · Score: 3, Funny

at the end of that diatribe: "Fix your f*cking "compliance tool", because it is obviously broken. And fix your approach to kernel programming"
is:
"How about you go and fix your f*cking social skills. When you can carry on a conversation without resorting to childish profanity, I'll come back and donate my free time to your project. Until then, go f*ck yourself."
Linus is fast becoming another RMS but without the benefit of a cohesive set of values.
I was just thinking that Linus is showing himself to be the bastard child of ESR and Theo.
LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Finally! by toygeek · 2012-12-28 15:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters! Thanks Slashdot! Its been a while...

--
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Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
Shit Happens by MacGyver2210 · 2012-12-28 15:10 · Score: 5, Insightful

Sometimes shit happens. Sorry for that.
Cheers,
Mauro
Wrong. Answer.

--
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
1. Re:Shit Happens by Lisias · 2012-12-28 16:22 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  IMHO, this is the exact attitude that got Linus pissed off.
  
  --
  Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
Re:Linus is an asshat, imho by tuffy · 2012-12-28 15:15 · Score: 5, Informative

The Linux kernel management style is well documented.
For example:

Similarly, don't be too polite or subtle about things. Politeness easily ends up going overboard and hiding the problem, and as they say, "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle". Use a big blunt object to hammer the point in, because you can't really depend on people getting your point otherwise.

--
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
This is an inkblot by Stirling+Newberry · 2012-12-28 15:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

What someone says about it, says more about the commenter that the situation.

--
Fugue for Aaron Swartz
whiny mauro by Cyko_01 · 2012-12-28 16:03 · Score: 3, Informative

An anonymous reader points out just how thick a skin it takes to be a kernel developer sometimes...
Mauro points out just how thick a skin it takes to be a kernel developer sometimes...there FTFY
Be fair by melted · 2012-12-28 16:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

The guy deals with A LOT of bullshit on a daily basis, and this was a BS patch anyway. That would be the end of it if the dude didn't start coming up with excuses. If you know you're wrong, fucking say so and make things right.
1. Re:Be fair by BitZtream · 2012-12-28 18:00 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Did you read the thread? I don't think you did. He started off by telling the person reporting the bug that it was a user space app problem (pulse audio).
  This is wrong for several reasons.
  First and foremost, it is the unholiest of unholy to make a kernel change to an API that results in userland apps breaking.
  Second, Linus's policy is that of the above, never is a kernel change allowed to break a userland app.
  Third, the way he changed the code was in no way what so ever acceptable. He change the error code for an ioctl to NOENT, i.e. file not found ... ioctl's work on open files, its not possible to have a file not found, you're already past the point where you would get that response as you've already opened the file.
  It was a shitty patch AND the patcher blamed someone else AGAINST POLICY for his own stupid mistake. THAT is why Linus tore him a new one.
  He didn't get reemed for just fucking up, he got reemed for fucking up in multiple ways and blaming it on someone else, then when that was pointed out, he tried to respond with 'well other people do it' as if that is an acceptable response as well.
  
  --
  Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
2. Re:Be fair by fredprado · 2012-12-28 18:01 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  You have serious issues with reading, my friend. The guy clearly says:
  
  That seems a bug at pulseaudio.
  Which is obviously false and a pitiful attempt to put the blame where it does not belong.
3. Re:Be fair by aardvarkjoe · 2012-12-28 18:24 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Second, Linus's policy is that of the above, never is a kernel change allowed to break a userland app.
  While I don't doubt (reading quickly through the description of what happened) that this change was bad, a policy that "kernel changes can never break a userland app" seems like a bit of an odd statement to make.
  In my experience (and I do do development in environments where this comes up frequently), it is not at all unusual for applications to either rely on buggy behavior of another piece of code, or to make unwarranted assumptions about how another piece of code works, that happens to be valid under some circumstances but not others. If an application does not properly handle the documented behavior of an interface, then the application is broken.
  In the case of the kernel, it's impossible to validate every single piece of userland software out there will not break due to a change in behavior, and although it can be best to maintain compatibility whenever possible, at some point that can become either impossible or impractical.
  Now, if the policy is that you don't break applications that are following the documented kernel interface -- well, then that makes a lot more sense.
  
  --
  
  How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
4. Re:Be fair by oatworm · 2012-12-28 18:42 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  In my experience (and I do do development in environments where this comes up frequently), it is not at all unusual for applications to either rely on buggy behavior of another piece of code, or to make unwarranted assumptions about how another piece of code works, that happens to be valid under some circumstances but not others.
  Which is why Linus' policy is that, when the choice is between userland compatibility and better adherence to theoretical documentation of the kernel interface, tie goes to userland compatibility. This is smart - Linux already has enough issues with userland apps breaking backwards compatibility to scratch itches that nobody really has (see GNOME 3, the entire audio stack, etc.); if the kernel is disciplined, at least, it keeps the whole environment from turning into a bug-ridden tar pit.
  
  As for Linus' attitude, well, I have to agree with Linus on this one. Fix the mistake first, either by removing the patch that broke everything or quickly implementing a fix, then ask questions. The first rule of kernel development should always be "Do No Harm". If you're in charge of some part of kernel development and you find yourself breaking that rule, you need to un-break it ASAP, then assess how you found yourself breaking it in the first place. Unfortunately, Mauro wasn't grasping that - he was too busy asking "reasonable questions" to undo the damage that his commit did when his first priority should have been to stabilize the kernel. Don't get me wrong, Mauro's questions are important and they do need to be answered, but only after userland is back to the condition he found it before the commit. And not until then. And *certainly* not with the mainline kernel.
5. Re:Be fair by makomk · 2012-12-29 02:01 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  His argument is that it's a bug with pulseaudio because there are already quite a lot of existing drivers that behave in exactly the same way, and PulseAudio broke here it's already going to be broken with all of them. Subtle difference.
6. Re:Be fair by hairyfeet · 2012-12-29 11:08 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Not to mention everybody seems to be ignoring what the guy was working on, he pointed out the drivers for the built in webcams on laptops is getting EXTREMELY complex and harder and harder to debug so they were trying to simply make it less of a mess. Did he fuck up? Yes but frankly there was no call for acting like a fucking dramaqueen douchebag, he's working on an extremely complex subsystem and made a mistake...no fucking shit, nobody working on a big complex project has ever made a fuckup?
  And don't give me Torvald's "we never break userland" excuse, because as the guy pointed out Pulse is locking ALL the interfaces when it takes over and that naturally is gonna cause problems when you are talking about a 2 way device like a webcam with audio. If Torvalds didn't like his approach it would have taken him a whole 30 seconds to say "We just don't do things that way, here is what you should have done" but no, he completely flies off the handle and acts like a total prick.
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
It needs to be said. by redback · 2012-12-28 17:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sometimes stupid people need to be told they are stupid, otherwise they wont stop being stupid.
Re:Linus is an asshat, imho by Xtifr · 2012-12-28 18:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

Bottom line, Linus has been in charge of the kernel for a couple of decades now, and his process is working. He doesn't flip out very often, so when he does, every who counts knows that some serious fuckups happened. And anyone who doesn't count (which in this case, almost certainly includes both you and me) can probably go fuck themselves if they don't like it.
Nobody in the world knows for sure how to manage a project like Linux. It is truly unprecedented. But Linus's way is working better than anyone would have expected two decades ago. If you want to second-guess him, feel free to start your own competing project and manage it your way. His way is working better than anything anyone else has ever tried, even if it's not "the best way".
The real problem is in the API spec by Animats · 2012-12-28 19:29 · Score: 5, Interesting

Take a look at the call for which ENOENT was returned. The API spec says "EINVAL: The struct v4l2_queryctrl id is invalid. The struct v4l2_querymenu id is invalid or index is out of range (less than minimum or greater than maximum) or this particular menu item is not supported by the driver."
This is from a generic driver mechanism for USB camera-like devices. Because such devices aren't as standard as they should be, there's an insane number of options and possible errors. The spec says to return EINVAL for both incorrect calls and calls for which the device does not support the requested item.
The problem here is that the EINVAL error status doesn't distinguish between "program made bad call and is broken" and "we're iterating through the device functions to discover which ones are available, and this ID isn't meaningful on this device so skip it" EINVAL is supposed to mean "One or more of the ioctl parameters are invalid or out of the allowed range." A correctly made call should not return EINVAL.
The alternatives are limited, though. This is related to a historical Linux design problem, which comes from a historical UNIX problem - system call errors are reported using one error code, chosen from a short list written in the 1970s. "ENOENT" isn't really appropriate. "ENOTTY" ("The ioctl is not supported by the driver"), might be appropriate, except that the usual message for that is "Not a typewriter".
The API is a rather lame and excessively complex way to return what is merely a variable-length list of fixed-format structures. One would think that Linux would by now have a generic way to do that, since it comes up in other contexts.
Here's an example of an application which seems to be crashing because the programmer did not understand the nonstandard semantics of EINVAL in this API.
It'll make Linux better by Taco+Cowboy · 2012-12-28 20:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

...and then it makes Linux as an operating system -- and everything that runs on it and depends on it, look bad...

While I agree that this incident does put Linux on the front pages in part of the Net, I seriously doubt the "look bad" part.
In fact, imho, this incident will generate more positive than negative for Linux.
Admins and users that are still sitting on the fence would take note, that Linus just don't take fuck as an excuse - and if anyone dares to fuck up like that fella he will get a public tongue lashing - and the top priority of Linux is to *NOT INTRODUCE ANY USERSPACE BUG*.

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
1. Re:It'll make Linux better by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2012-12-29 01:39 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Admins and users that are still sitting on the fence would take note, that Linus just don't take fuck as an excuse
  No, instead he apparently creates a contributor-hostile culture based on blame assignment and supported by a hero model. And that is far, far more dangerous, because when your hero isn't there (and he can't be everywhere, and he won't be around forever) you have pushed away good people who could have stepped up to take over the job. Internet-famous celebrities like Torvalds are toxic to a constructive development culture that consistently makes good products over the long term.
  
  --
  If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
2. Re:It'll make Linux better by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-29 03:56 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Hum?! What?!
  How long have you been disconnected from reality? Although I do feel that he was a bit too harsh, he does have a point. As a kernel maintainer he does have responsibilities and it's quite obvious they weren't met.
  It's no different from being employed in a company, someone screws up and can go from not being taken into account for promotion or plainly being fired depending on the incident proportion.
  Even at our homes our parents would puts us in place if we did something wrong that we should already know better (or we ourselves do it to our children).
  And blame is a good tool as any when used correctly, like any other tool. So no contributor-hostile culture, just irresponsability and incompetency hostile culture. I can live with that... heck, I even cheer wholeheartedly for that.
3. Re:It'll make Linux better by Zero__Kelvin · 2012-12-30 05:14 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  "There is a limited pool of people out there with the time and talent to help with FOSS projects. "
  You clearly don't have knowledge of Linux Kernel development circa 2013. Here is something you should know written way back in January 2010. Furthermore, you don't seem to understand, as I already said, what "good people" means. Linus only wants to work with "good people", which is why he will tell you to go fsck yourself if you aren't one of them and refuse to get a clue, which is clearly what we have seen here. You have read a single post, out of context, and formed a conclusion that the guy is a poor innocent bastard who did nothing wrong (or little wrong) and had his ass handed to him. You might want to peruse the entire LKML paying attention to the relative posts for the whole story before you form an opinion.
  
  --
  Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re:Really, Linus? by Todd+Knarr · 2012-12-28 22:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

This isn't backwards compatibility. It's the same basic rule we have to follow where I work: you DO NOT EVER make unannounced/unplanned changes that break the way other modules interact with yours. Period, end of line. Break that rule with any sort of regularity and you'll be looking for a job. If you need to make a change like that, it's on you to justify why and then to coordinate with everyone else to make sure everything that needs changed gets changed. It's not a hard rule to understand or to follow. If you can't, you have no business messing with an operating system kernel.
Re:Video drivers?! by Ash-Fox · 2012-12-28 23:50 · Score: 3, Informative

So "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE" doesn't seem to apply to Nvidia video drivers.

The nVidia drivers are developed by nVidia, not the Linux community.

--
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.