Slashdot Mirror
Why Linux On Microsoft Surface Is a Tough Challenge
hypnosec writes "With Linux enthusiasts and distro publishers eagerly waiting for a solution to Microsoft's UEFI SecureBoot, there are those who have already looked at the viability of Linux on Microsoft Surface tablet. Matthew Garrett, a.k.a. UEFI-guru, has revealed that those who are keeping their fingers crossed and hoping to find run Linux on Microsoft's tablet are on an uphill walk and it doesn't seem to be an easy one. So why is this? The answer is in the manner in which Microsoft has restricted the Surface from loading non-signed software / binaries by implementing UEFI SecureBoot. Microsoft has loaded on the ARM based tablet its private key instead of the 'Microsoft Windows UEFI Driver Publisher' key, which is needed to sign non-Microsoft software like Linux distributions or loaders. So, no publisher key = no signed non-Microsoft binary = no Linux."
As if you needed another reason.
Don't buy a surface?
no publisher key = no signed non-Microsoft binary = no Linux = NO SALE!
Honestly, I have no real interest in the Microsoft Surface anyway. I played with one at the store for a little while, and walked away thinking, "Pretty looking, but ultimately adds no value for me." Obviously though, others feel differently.
Still, if you're someone actually interested in a Surface but NOT to run Windows on it? The fact Microsoft has it this locked down should tell you to move along and not vote for this product with your wallet. It's great to see people enabling hardware to do new things it wasn't intended to do originally.... but where do we draw the line?
So in the same camp as every iPad made, and the majority of Android tablets, then?
SecureBoot was never about security If it was, Microsoft would put at least some token effort towards blacklisting drivers with ring 0 holes. The point since day one was to hinder the spread of non-commercial alternatives.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Stop. Just stop.
It's a Microsoft device. It was designed to run Win RT. This is quite clearly marked on the box and the device itself.
There are a thousand other things wrong with Linux right now and nobody seems interested in fixing them (yes, I'm doing my part, but I only have so much free time to spend fixing random issues and maintaining my own packages). No, instead, we're going to dump all our time and effort into making a device that was NEVER DESIGNED TO RUN LINUX, well, run Linux.
Sooner or later you just have to say enough is enough. This is almost as stupid as buying an iPad or iPhone and attempting to run Android on it. Just because you're buying "hardware" doesn't mean you're getting the privilege of installing whatever the hell you want on the device. Mobile equipment like this is marketed and sold as an end-to-end solution, you're not buying hardware- you're buying software tied to hardware. Making the mistake of thinking that the hardware is there for you to do whatever you wish with is silly. If you want a tablet to run Linux on, buy a tablet that runs Linux.
Trying to shoehorn the 'tux onto the ARM Surface is stupid. No shit Microsoft has locked the thing up, they're subsidizing the damned hardware by assuming that you'll run Windows on it and buy applications through the Windows App Store.
This is almost as dumb as buying a set of kitchen utensils then wondering why you can't build a shed with them. If you wanted to buy a shed, why didn't you invest in a set of proper tools? What on earth made you think a few forks, spoons, and knives were going to let you do the same thing?
Had Microsoft tried to sell a PC that was similarly locked-down in the late 1990s, I expect they would've gotten sued by the government. However, mobile phones (and game consoles) have traditionally been locked-down, and no regulatory agency seems to mind.
Now the line is blurring between the two, with the tablet borrowing from both laptops and mobile phones. I assume soon either it'll be OK for any device to be locked down, or all devices will have to be "openable".
I wonder how that's gonna turn out...
I can think of only a few major brand Android tablets that have locked bootloaders, and all of these have been defeated:
* Nook Tablet
* Nook HD
* Nook HD+
* Kindle HD 7"
* Kindle HD 8.9"
All use u-boot an open-sourced bootloader, and all had implementation flaws. (Actually, the flaws WERE their implementation in the first place. Let's say both had "available fixes".)
Other tablets such as the Nexus 7 and 10 have locked bootloaders too, but they are unlockable via fastboot and the command "fastboot oem unlock".
If you want a *nix that runs on MS Surface caliber hardware and aren't worrying about licensing, get an iPad. You can fill it up with important apps for under $100.
If you want a cheap *nix pad, get an android. It still has licensing issues, but is the commodity hardware that was the MS Windows machine.
The reality is that OSS is going to be a few years behind MS, which is a couple years behind Apple. Look at the office app. Openoffice.org was possible only because the office application is now legacy and MS did little to keep the product unique. While the GUI was available in high end Unix machines since it was available for Apple, commodity machines did not have graphic coprocessors that made GUIs efficient until the early 90's.
So it is an advancement that we had a functional *nix tablet, in the form of android, before we had a functional MS tablet, in terms of surface. So I am not sure why we would want to make MS Surface anything other than a marginal device by standardizing it as a *nix device. I mean, one thing about windows is it was the standard for writing memos and the like, so if you could get the MS Windows applications running in *nix, then you would not have to have a MS license. But what Apps does MS Surface have? I mean MS is so desperate that they are buying banner ads on /. begging developers to write apps.
Just let the MS Surface die a graceful death. Don't glorify it by even suggesting it should run and *nix.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The problem is that it was designed to never run linux.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I'm assuming that the same folks that root iPhones and Android phones, and seemingly every other bit of hardware on the planet will defeat this pretty fast as well. So yeah, let's buy up all of those cheap MicroSoft tablets and install Cyanogenmod!
Three Squirrels
Why would you even bother to put Linux on Microsoft hardware? You have chosen hardware that's crippled by design, you have chosen to get yourself shafted. There are plenty other Linux friendly hardware out there...
Microsoft has made clear they don't want Linux on Surface. Nothing is that unique about the Surface hardware. So stop trying and concentrate on Linux on any number of more popular and more open tablets.
Whether Secure Boot makes your system more secure is still up in the air.
What does UEFI do? It lets us move past many of the ancient holdovers from 30 years ago that imposed silly limits on PCs, like 2TB limits on the boot drive, the MBR and associated partitioning scheme (GPT is much cleaner.) It also removes all the 16-bit, 1MB memory window limitations at boot time, moving the processors directly into 64-bit on startup and never leaving. All the archaic stuff moved into a compatibility module that can be turned on and off as you see fit.
Best of luck to you, I hope you enjoy MIPS. Every x86 board vendor has moved to UEFI.
Just because you're buying "hardware" doesn't mean you're getting the privilege of installing whatever the hell you want on the device.
See ignoring the massive flag waving response. I have this belief that if I buy something I can do what the hell I want with it. When did I start hiring/licensing my computer!! Can Microsoft really not effective compete with Linux the OS you claim in not ready (It is has been for years) I believe the Android variant is set to eclipse Windows Next Year.
Most are.
There may be a DMCA exemption for jailbreaking, but it only applies to cell phones and Apple can still fight you. Thus the lack of a jailbreak for iOS 6.
I think you mean "Apple and Microsoft are turning the computer into a game-console type appliance."
just another lesson learned from Apple.
I'm tired of Apple being used to justify shitty behaviour from Microsoft. In this case its no even true.
There are a thousand other things wrong with Linux right now and nobody seems interested in fixing them (yes, I'm doing my part, but I only have so much free time to spend fixing random issues and maintaining my own packages). No, instead, we're going to dump all our time and effort into making a device that was NEVER DESIGNED TO RUN LINUX, well, run Linux.
Until relatively recently, no device was *ever* designed to run linux. If the Linux community accepted that approach, Linux wouldn't run on anything.
I think it's important, and sends a message to big companies, that Linux run on everything. It tells them, you will not avoid us. You cannot lock your shit down. No matter what you do, we'll be there.
If I was more clever, I'd do a rendition of a Police song to accentuate the point.
Hardware that can run any OS will still be available, if just to fill the server market. There are tons of companies out there running on linux servers, and they have no interest in switching to either windows or being forced into very big hardware. As long as they exist and keep buying, you'll be able to run linux on the desktop, no matter what Microsoft wants.
Back when UEFI came out people were saying how things weren't so bad. Now MS has done exactly what 'tinfoil hat wearing alarmists' said they would.
Next time, "things will be alright"-folk, dont tell us we didn't tole you!
Chevrolet car, that can only use Chevrolet gas.
davecb@spamcop.net
MS made (and still makes) some of the first and best mass-market ergonomic keyboards. It was apparently actually a response to an internal problem; too many of their employees were getting RSIs and the best solution was to manufacture their own improved keyboard design. MS also makes some of the best general-purpose mice (1000 DPI, 5 buttons, excellent optical sensor, cheap) and laptop mice. They have competition in all those areas, and some of their more exotic designs haven't fared too well, but the mainstream Intellimouse designs have gone through something like eight generations of steady sales. I don't know how well they've done on the webcam market, though.
Also, since we're talking hardware, the Xbox and Xbox 360, while very expensive to make and taking a long time to recoup that investment, are certainly products which "did not tank". The Kinect has sold fantastically, although the gen1 model is feeling a little gen1 these days.
As for Surface... that remains to be seen. The lockdown on the UEFI and bootloader is a pain (personally) and will cost them a few sales (some portion of Slashdotters who would otherwise buy a widescreen tablet with a really nice cover/keyboard/trackpad accessory). Beyond that... it remains to be seen. The Surface Pro is even more a mystery in terms of market response.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
All 5 of them.
Why not just use an android tablets which already work with linux.
also, the android patches have been included into 3.3 and 3.4 and later kernels, so a stock linux kernel can work.
also, linux 3.8 will run on multiple arm cpus with one binary kernel.
There are far far far more android tablets. Why even bother with a windows tab?
It's almost as if they purposefully want to create products that will fail. Can anyone say "Zune", "Vista", or "Windows 8"? Do they somehow make more money doing things this way (perhaps a tax writeoff) than actually making something that sells tens or even hundreds of millions of units???
Locked bootloaders are so last decade.
Microsoft Surface is not the name of a particular tablet, but a line of tablets which includes Windows RT & Windows 8 Pro
Windows 8 Pro Surface does not require signed binaries, it is simply Windows Pro.
They're talking specifically about Windows RT, and its not any better or worse than an iPad.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
> The problem is that it was designed to never run linux.
Short of some bogus barrier, there is no such thing.
If it can run some proprietary OS then by definition it can run Linux. Linux runs everwhere including hardware that other desktop operating systems can't touch.
If it's a general purpose machine Linux can run it. If it's a Turing machine then Linux can run it.
The idea that it's "not designed for" is just clueless nonsense.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
None of the prior-generation x86 Windows tablets ran an OS that was really touch-friendly. The software, even more so than the hardware, crippled them as products. Additionally, the hardware has come a long, long way. Tablet PCs used to come in two form factors:
1. Badly overpriced/underpowered laptops with funky screen hinges, styluses, and mediocre battery life,
2. Very thick and heavy (for a handheld device) "slates" with high prices, poor performance, no easy way to use them like a laptop, probably a stylus, and mediocre battery life.
#1 achieved some popularity in workplaces and university campuses, where the ability to take notes and documents on a reasonably portable device that could also run "real programs" was useful, but they were never a commercial hit and until software like OneNote started appearing, there wasn't a lot that took advantage of their unique functionality. For the same price, you could get a more portable and durable ultra-light laptop, or a more powerful and durable conventional laptop, or a vastly more powerful non-tablet laptop. For a lower price, you could get a more powerful and durable small laptop, or a much more powerful (though less portable) typical laptop. With tablet functionality imposing such a hit on the performance and cost, and the software not there to back it up, of course they weren't popular.
#2 was even worse off. Although slightly more durable (no easy way to cover the screen though, unlike the convertible clamshell designs) and more portable (no keyboard, etc.), they were worse off for software (some programs just can't be used without a keyboard, and the on-screen keyboards take up too many pixels and are a pain to use) and were so niche that they had very little to drive the price down (convertible tablets had a reasonable amount of competition, with most major laptop vendors offering at least one model at a time in the last decade or so). Combined with their crippling inability to be used as a typical laptop (no built-in stand, no convenient way to offer peripherals), of course they sold terribly.
The world is different now. The introduction of cheap and accurate (if not precise) capacitive touchscreens has made multi-touch a far more common tablet interface than stylus digitizers. Low-power CPUs and high-capacity batteries have more than doubled tablet battery life, even as the devices have gotten thinner and lighter yet also more powerful. Relatively cheap and widely available solid-state storage has drastically improved performance, weight, battery life, and durability of modern tablets compared to their predecessors. The earmarks of the old tablet form factors are all but gone, even as the general classes of form factor - convertible and slate - still exist. Those lines are blurring now too, though.
On the software side, multi-touch has made interacting with a tablet much easier and more practical. Largely as a result of the rise in touch-driven phones, users are much more familiar with interacting with a computing device via touch - it is, after all, a natural paradigm, and one which the old tablets typically didn't support well if at all - and developers are much more familiar with writing touch-driven software. The hard-learned lessons of what makes a touch interface usable are finally being embraced by OS and app developers alike. Similarly, the importance of low battery utilization in apps has finally penetrated, and developers are learning to code appropriately. Tablet hardware (at a reasonable price) is finally capable of supporting "real" software - full web browsers and office suites, high-quality games and powerful utility apps, slick media players (and storage for their media) and tools for photographers and artists - in form factors that were before barely usable for handwritten notes and barely capable of running anything else. To find and buy all that lovely new software, built-in app stores are now common. To the user they provide convenience and at least some safety against malware, to the developer they offer di
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Ghandi
And before all that, you lose the ability to spell.
This space for rent.
You can't run linux on an ipad either. So linux users don't buy ipads either? Do linux users boycott apple and not run linux on overpriced apple laptops because they can't run linux on apple's tablet?
Why is Microsoft the only evil one for making a tablet that can't boot linux?
This is just plain silliness. There are a bunch of win8 tablets where secure boot can be disabled and linux installed.
The Intel 486 was not designed to prevent the owner from running whatever software on it he desired, including Linux. The hardware under discussion is designed to prevent the use of any software that is not signed by a Microsoft crypto key. The problem is not that it is "not designed to run Linux". The problem is that it is "designed to not run Linux".
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Your intemperate ramble misses the point. Sure, there are lots of reasons not to buy this product (and I won't), but if people just lie down and say nothing about this UEFI lockout, you can bet your ass MS will use its leverage to force it on other products later on. Remember that Martin Niemöller quotation...
That dominant market share of 1%?
Yes, unfortunately.
That 1% of tablets are the only ones that can open MS-Word documents correctly. They are a POS, but people will buy them if only for MS-Office compatibility.
The evil with an illegal monopoly is in letting it happen to begin with. Microsoft is now leveraging their old secret standard file formats to impose an inferior product on the market.