Windows 8 Even Less Popular Than Vista

That's not the HTML you're looking for by Kazymyr · 2012-12-31 20:06 · Score: 5, Funny

Misses a "<"

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Will Microsoft call on Burson-Marsteller to fix it by sethstorm · 2012-12-31 20:06 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's not like they've not tried to clean the image of Microsoft when Vista was poorly received.

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It's not dead. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-31 20:09 · Score: 5, Funny

It's resting.

Re:It's not dead. by TemperedAlchemist · 2012-12-31 20:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

I imagine Microsoft may just release a patch that fixes everything into a "classic" view to gain more sales.
Re:It's not dead. by jhoegl · 2012-12-31 21:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

If they do, I will quickly look into Windows 8 for deployment at my job.
As it stands now, I wouldnt deploy it because it would cause too many headaches for tech support, teaching people how to use the Operating system.
Re:It's not dead. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-12-31 21:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

I imagine Microsoft may just release a patch that fixes everything into a "classic" view to gain more sales.
What amazes me is that(at least at time of writing) they don't even offer a group policy setting that lets their whiny corporate customers set all their definitely-not-touchscreen boring typingboxes to go directly to desktop by default.
It isn't terribly tricky to script an invocation of "explorer.exe shell:::{3080F90D-D7AD-11D9-BD98-0000947B0257}" on login; but the fact that they don't just offer a GPO setting to switch strongly suggests that somebody at Microsoft is hitting the kool-aide far harder than is advisable.
I just don't understand it. With Vista, the mystery was how they'd managed to get so little done in 6-odd years of development, the core product just kind of sucked. With Win8, they essentially have the (generally well-liked) base of Win7, with a bunch of modest improvements in various areas, and then Metro. All they'd have to do is make it optional(or get really crazy and have it default on or off depending on whether the device has a touchscreen or not...) and everybody would stop whining more or less immediately. It's just sort of baffling.
Re:It's not dead. by whoever57 · 2012-12-31 22:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

It isn't terribly tricky to script an invocation of "explorer.exe shell:::{3080F90D-D7AD-11D9-BD98-0000947B0257}" on login; but the fact that they don't just offer a GPO setting to switch strongly suggests that somebody at Microsoft is hitting the kool-aide far harder than is advisable.
At they highest levels of Microsoft, they are convinced that providing the same "user experience" to mobile users as desktop users will be Microsoft's salvation. Somehow they think that this will force adoption of mobile devices running Windows (they think that users will demand Microsoft mobile devices because they look the same as PCs). That's why they don't want to allow people to make PCs easy to configure such that they are different to mobile devices.

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Re:It's not dead. by RDW · 2012-12-31 23:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

"We hate features and like to pretend that Gnome classic doesn't exist" - The Gnome 3 Roadmap (Status: Implementation in progress).
FTFY
Re:It's not dead. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-31 23:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

Correct. The only way they think they can possibly win the smartphone/tablet markets now, is to leverage their Windows PC monopoly. The only way they can do that is to make the Windows PC look like the Windows smartphone/tablet, force people to get used to it, and then hope that will translate to a preference for Windows on the portable devices.
It's actually not a completely misguided strategy.
Well, it is misguided in that Microsoft should actually try to win markets by making better products. But they have never been good at that. Their entire success is based on leveraging their Windows PC monopoly, so this strategy is "do what works".
With any luck, all this will do is start the ball slowly rolling (if it isn't already) on the eventual decline of the PC stranglehold. People have predicted this many times before, but things are a bit different. Smartphones and tablets with iOS and Android are now a huge market and huge user base. OSX on the desktop is actually reaching a noticeable size. And Microsoft is doing their best to alienate ISVs who are increasingly looking to these other platforms (and even Linux-on-PC) to escape.
Re:It's not dead. by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-12-31 23:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Gates said, that he "wanted to own the desktop." And he ended up doing it.
With Metro, Ballmer is saying that he wants to "own the user interface of everything." Traditional PCs, and also tablets, and phones. Since they already "own the desktop", they are starting their offensive there. And what other choice will an average user have, who buys a new PC? It will come with Windows 8, and Metro. If Microsoft can win the user interface war there, they hope tablets and phones will follow. A nice strategy for them, it sucks for us, getting stuck with a Metro that nobody really wants.
I personally believe that they are too late. Folks are hooked and happy with their Android and Apple gadgets, and won't switch over to Microsoft gadgets, just to have a common interface.
In fact, the whole thing could backfire for Microsoft. If the new user experience with Metro on PCs is negative, folks will definitely NOT want it on their gadgets.

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Re:It's not dead. by serviscope_minor · 2012-12-31 23:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

It isn't terribly tricky to script an invocation of "explorer.exe shell:::{3080F90D-D7AD-11D9-BD98-0000947B0257}" on login;
And this is why Linux will always fail on the desktop. While users have to type shit like that it will never be adopted to the masses and Windows will continue to... oh never mind.
I have actually now tried Windows 8: after my mother in law's computer broke I helped set up the new one.
Seemed a bit meh, to be honest. A bit of a random mishmash of two unrelated GUI concepts. Also she decided to remove most of the animated tiles because they're generally pointless (something I happen to agree on). We were both a bit baffled that some of them uninstall cleanly because they're "apps" and some take you to an apparently unrelated place in the new equivalent of add/remove programs because they're "programs" not "apps". It really feels like two operating systems which only barely work together.
A lot of weird stuff too, like having to find magic corners/edges that do things. It was kind of OK after a lot of random clicking around.
They also seem to have tried to implement a slightly confusing and rather ruimentary window management scheme of some sort for tiling or virtual desktops or something. It feels very primitive. I think I'll stick to fvwm.

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Re:It's not dead. by RDW · 2012-12-31 23:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

Astonishing isn't it? They've taken an excellent product (by MS standards) and done their best to bury it under a silly hybrid UI setup. Take 10 minutes to install Classic Shell, configure it to boot straight to the desktop (start menu enabled, hot corners disabled), re-register the file types that have been hijacked by Metro apps, and you have arguably the best conventional version of Windows to date - fast booting, integrated antivirus, upgraded task manager, ISO mounting, and a nice clean theme, etc.
Basically all the bad press could have been avoided if they'd made Metro and the start menu globally optional without third party solutions. IT departments (even if they get past the reviews) will take one look at the default configuration and its unpredictable switches between desktop and Metro, think support calls, and file the whole thing as 'Do Not Want'. That MS are already making noises about Windows Blue for 2013 suggests they've realised there's little chance of widespread corporate adoption for Windows 8.
Re:It's not dead. by mvdwege · 2013-01-01 00:02 · Score: 4, Funny

It isn't terribly tricky to script an invocation of "explorer.exe shell:::{3080F90D-D7AD-11D9-BD98-0000947B0257}" on login;
And ever since 2001 people have been telling me that that Linux thing would never catch on because it relied on too many arcane command invocations...

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Re:It's not dead. by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2013-01-01 00:26 · Score: 4, Informative

I imagine Microsoft may just release a patch that fixes everything into a "classic" view to gain more sales.
Indeed. Every day I spend with Win 8, I dislike it more. Tried to add a network printer, but it was not auto-detected in the new metro interface. However when I went the old route in the control panel to add a new printer, it was auto-detected immediately.
When such basic functionality is not working in the new interface (which one would assume is actually backed by the same underlying OS components), there's a real problem. This is aside from the unpleasantness of the interface itself, at least when using non-touch or wanting to actually multitask.
The only things going for it so far are the improvements to file transfer and the task manager program.
Re:It's not dead. by gbjbaanb · 2013-01-01 00:27 · Score: 5, Informative

it quite probably will, people buy a Windows 8 tablet and then find they cannot run Windows apps on it (as they bought the ARM version, 99% of consumers won't know the difference beyond the price, battery life, and the considerable weight of the Pro version).
BBC Click did a review of Win8, and you can expect them to be as impartial as you're going to get - certainly compared to the other reviews on sites that also have "sponsored by Microsoft" articles. They weren't too complimentary whilst still being polite (its at the start of the programme, first 7 minutes).
They also did a review of Surface - they did not like it, basically. (14 minutes in, 4 minutes long, just past the nice bit with the raspberry pi and Mike Powell at 9:30). they really showed how useless the keyboard is too - see 15:20 in for the demo....
Re:It's not dead. by jones_supa · 2013-01-01 00:44 · Score: 4, Interesting

Seemed a bit meh, to be honest. A bit of a random mishmash of two unrelated GUI concepts.
I was surprised that MS didn't convert the Windows Accessories (Notepad, Calculator, etc.) to Modern apps. And then the old Control Panel was left there, but some settings are still managed through the Modern UI. As the icing of the cake, the whole new UI is just butt-ugly. These kind of glaring issues leave quite a half-baked taste of Windows 8. It feels like they slapped on the Modern UI there, but weren't confident enough to polish the experience throughly.
Re:It's not dead. by Patch86 · 2013-01-01 02:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Insulting how? I've worked in dead-end admin jobs before. Low wages, mostly staffed by 18 year olds and part time mothers. There were a lot of people there without a lot of IT skills, and they would most certainly not consider themselves to be "professional customer change of address people", etc. Profession implies a level of specialist knowledge and commitment that they would definitely not claim was required.
These are people who will require training if you change the tools you've given them to do their job. Being told "bugger off and learn how to use it in your own time somehow" is not going to cut it; and any IT department that thinks it will is full of idiots.
Re:It's not dead. by MysteriousPreacher · 2013-01-01 02:16 · Score: 5, Funny

Tell them it's a new life coaching/project management/quality methodology designed to align their deliverables with their metric milestones and increase partnership with cloud stakeholders.

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Re:It's not dead. by Simulant · 2013-01-01 02:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

What you say is true but even when we avoid the annoyances that Metro brings, the improvements in Windows 8 STILL aren't worth the cost and hassle of upgrading. Those of us who care about the truly useful improvements in Windows 8 have had access to free and decent workarounds for years. All-in-all, they are pretty minor improvements. I can find no must-have, killer feature in Windows 8.

Windows 8, minus Metro, would have made a great service pack though.
Re:It's not dead. by Nerdfest · 2013-01-01 03:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think people are missing the point of the 'Metro' interface. It's not about the interface ... that's just the excuse. They want to lock down the software market and get a cut of all the sales, plus more control over what's installed. Metro will stay. The older interface will become less and less useful ... more and more crippled. They want what Apple has with iOS. Even Apple wants what they have with iOS and is doing the same thing with OS X.

Incredible by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-31 20:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

I didn't think it was possible to make something worse than Vista, but Microsoft did it. They really are out of touch with consumers by trying to ram this crappy UI down their throats. Looks like there's a lot of resistance. 2012 wasn't a very good year for Microsoft. 2013 should be even worse.

Re:Incredible by SuricouRaven · 2013-01-01 00:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think it's deliberate. MS knows the interface sucks, and are trying to ram it down, because even though users hate it doing to can advance Microsoft's long-term goals. They are accepting a bit of user hate in the desktop OS area (Where their position is almost unassailable) in order to promote their products in the new mobile arena, where they need every advantage they can get right now.

It's just a big scam to make Windows 9 look good by CodeheadUK · 2012-12-31 20:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

People clung on to XP because Vista was crap, then dived on Win7 and declared it to be the best thing ever. Those same folks aren't going to give up 7 until the hardware support starts to die off, at which point Windows 9 will appear and the cycle will start again.

Assuming Microsoft are still around to make Win9 and we haven't all had to make the choice between OSX or Linux

A couple things that kept me from upgrading... by ArcadeNut · 2012-12-31 20:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

1. The default UI was Metro.
2. They took my start button away.
3. Multi Monitor support was changed (Task bar now goes across all monitors).

While not major, it's still very annoying.

I know you can get utilities/hacks, etc... to fix this, but I shouldn't have to. At the minimum, they should have given options to turn them back on, even if they were off by default. So now they are trying to force their way of doing things on me.

Maybe they'll do better with Windows 9...but for now Windows 7 for me.

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Re:A couple things that kept me from upgrading... by symbolset · 2012-12-31 21:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

As for installed crapware, it's just a right-click to uninstall. No uninstaller prompt BS any more.
No, it's not that easy. And it can never be that easy. Crapware is installed with system privileges. If you have crapware on your PC then somebody you don't trust to have your best interest at heart has been operating your PC with system privileges - before you even got it. They have professional programmers, advanced system knowledge. They can replace anything including core parts of the operating system, install keyloggers, rootkits and whatever. The standard retail consumer cannot defeat this. As an end user you absolutely must trust some of their software because you must have the OEM drivers to operate the gear. Even if you're an ideal IT pro and doing a burn an purge from verified Microsoft OS image, you still have to trust the OEM drivers that are installed with highest privilege. But the OEM has put fourth-party software on your gear, for pay, counter to your best interest - and almost certainly without inspecting it for nefarious code. This is not how you establish a trust relationship with your device or your OEM.
Windows OEMs cannot be trusted any more.

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Re:A couple things that kept me from upgrading... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-31 22:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

Installing a start button replacement is not the answer. This will only help windows 8 to have more market share. Understand their stated intention is to do away with the desktop and non-metro apps completely. If you are using windows 8, even if you have modified it to be identical to windows 7, it still registers as a sale to them and thus supports there ultimate goal of turning windows into a cobbled cellphone OS on your desktop where you have to sign into an account and download software exclusively from an App store.
Please stop telling people to use these damned tools. Tell them the ultimate answer to the problems with windows 8 is to downgrade.
Do not let them put you in the pot and bring it to a boil slowly.
Re:A couple things that kept me from upgrading... by RDW · 2012-12-31 23:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

Lastly, you dont need the start button if you learn how to use whats there.. Thats like complaining when going from Win 3.1 to 95. They got rid of my Program Manager I wish they gave me a way to turn it back on..
They did, from 95 up until XP SP1 ( http://support.microsoft.com/kb/142255 ). Of course back then they actually had people who thought about the impact of new interface design on users:
http://www.sigchi.org/chi96/proceedings/desbrief/Sullivan/kds_txt.htm
At one point in the design of Windows 95 they considered having two separate UIs, the windowed interface we know and a separate, simplified interface they thought might be suitable for beginners, and which seems to have featured a set of tiles that launched the various applications. Although the design "tested well, because it successfully constrained user actions to a very small set", it was abandoned because "If just one function a user needed was not supported in the beginner shell, s/he would have to abandon it (at least temporarily)", learning "would not necessarily transfer well to the standard shell", and "users had to learn two ways of interacting with the computer, which was confusing". I wonder if the Windows 8 design team were aware of this document..?

Maybe because sales of PC have been going down by prasadsurve · 2012-12-31 20:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

Most of the consumers are preferring to buy Tablets over PC so I guess the numbers of new Windows 8 PC are bound to be down as well. The fact that Windows 8 is horrible is probably just icing on the cake.

Re:FIRST!! by Kagetsuki · 2012-12-31 20:33 · Score: 5, Funny

No sticks. With Windows 8 you get a bunch of uncomroftable tiles, but no sticks.

In his house at Redmond... by tooyoung · 2012-12-31 20:44 · Score: 4, Funny

In his house at Redmond dead Microsoft waits dreaming.

/. editors that dunno html ... by Taco+Cowboy · 2012-12-31 20:58 · Score: 4, Informative

What can I say?

This ain't the first time the /. editors fscked up.

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cornered animal by caywen · 2012-12-31 21:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

They worked their assed off, but made some really bad decisions. Now, sales are looking like a disaster - in their core revenue generator. Microsoft is beginning to feel like a cornered animal. It does still have claws, and hopefully the board will understand just how badly steveb has executed, once it sees the bottom starting to fall out. 2013 will be an entertaining year seeing how Microsoft scrambles. I'd start with a tutorial that wasn't a 2 hour hack job.

Steve Balmer by asmkm22 · 2012-12-31 21:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

The CEO needs to be let go. It should have happened a long time ago, but I can't see them letting him off the hook yet again. He has literally done nothing positive for the company since he took over.

Re:Windows 8 blows by EzInKy · 2012-12-31 21:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

Beyond DirectX 11.1 support, security. Fast start up and shutdowns.

So nothing really important then? If you can't stand to look at something you simply don't want it in your face.

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Gnome team and Microsoft think tablets are super! by BrookHarty · 2012-12-31 21:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

User interface guidelines. Android is finally realizing they needed interface guidelines. Apple has done great in both OSX and IOS. But Gnome team and Microsoft seems to be ignoring every standard and going gooey eyed over tablets.

My tablet is not my work computer, not my game system, and not my media box. Its my portable content reader.

Listen to your users.

Re:Microsoft - the company with two left feet by Runaway1956 · 2012-12-31 21:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

Define "top rate" please. Somehow, I think you've discounted all those unethical business practices.

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Re:I could have had a Windows 8 laptop by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-31 21:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

I got called in to help my Mother's barely computer-literate friend with her new super-duper Windows 8 laptop.

Good grief. What a nightmare. What normally takes a few minutes with 7 (slap on Firefox and a few other progs. done) took half a day and I even had to do a factory reset when the lappy decided my user account didn't have enough privilege to run UAC ("Please enter your administrator password" - WHERE?!?!?) The funny part was when I got a call a day later telling me the machine didn't work, it was stuck on "Some picture of a skyscraper". Ah, that would be the lock screen. How do we get rid of that? Errr, move the mouse down to the bottom of the display, click and drag the picture up thus revealing the password box underneath. ARE YOU SERIOUS MICROSOFT!?!??! Yeah, I know this makes perfect sense on tablets. She wasn't using a tablet, so WTF?

Based on this one exposure I'm betting millions of average people will currently be tearing their hair out over the Win 8 monstrosity. Telling them they can download hacks & fixes & third-party tools isn't going to help. Telling them to forget half their Win 7 controls and just remember various keyboard shortcuts isn't going to help, either.

As for the Metro GUI. Good grief. I've been overlaying different-sized windows since the days of my Atari ST. Metro seems to be either full-screen, or a kind of triptych tiling system. Not so handy for anyone with a display bigger than nine inches (i.e. 99.9% of Windows users).

Re:Microsoft - the company with two left feet by Tough+Love · 2013-01-01 00:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

Microsoft's decline started on Bill Gates' watch. Maybe Ballmer will preside over the "fall" phase. Maybe Ballmer's next trick will be learning to play the fiddle while playing with matches.

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Re:It's not dead by Gim+Tom · 2013-01-01 02:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

Last week I got my first look at Windows 8 when trying to set up my 72 year old cousin's new PC that came with it installed. We got it up, but having never looked at it nor even considered getting it I couldn't tell her the first thing about using it. If there had been some EASY and OBVIOUS way to get rid of the METRO interface and go back to a Classic Shell she might have been happy with it, but after an hour of trying to do anything useful she wanted it boxed up and she has already returned it for a refund.

I have never really been that fond of Windows since I started working with Unix and Linux back in the late 1990's but this time I think Microsoft has played a game of Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic pistol.

Re:It's not dead by RDW · 2013-01-01 04:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

If there had been some EASY and OBVIOUS way to get rid of the METRO interface and go back to a Classic Shell she might have been happy with it, but after an hour of trying to do anything useful she wanted it boxed up and she has already returned it for a refund.

The Classic Shell I use is a third party addon:

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

It's a useful project that has been adding back features removed by MS from Vista onwards. Their start menu actually pre-dates Win 8 - it's more configurable than the standard Win 7 menu.

Of course, it's crazy that downloading something like this is even necessary!

Re:Will Microsoft call on Burson-Marsteller to fix by hairyfeet · 2013-01-01 06:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

What is funny is these PR firms are apparently lazy as hell as I've noticed when someone will post a criticism of Win 8 a hell of a lot of the time the "its great!" Win 8 response you'll get back you can drop a line of in Google and they've posted the same reply word for word across dozens of sites, its like the fricking Nigerian prince emails. I don't know which is funnier, the shill copypasta or the "Oh that is not a problem, all you have to do is (big pile of keyboard crap)" which of course i just HAVE to reply with "So THIS is innovation? We need cheat sheets for our OSes again like its 1985?"

I have never seen a company in all my years just up and completely destroy themselves like this, damnedest thing I've ever seen. For those that think Win 8 is just the "Star Trek Rule" in action you might want to look up the "Windows Blue" memo, in it Ballmer lays out what he is doing in 2013 to "save Microsoft"...ready? He is gonna fuck the hell out of the OEMs and pretty much kill Nokia so that MSFT can make phones (just like Apple) tablets (ditto) desktops (notice a pattern?) and laptops (Ray Charles could see through this) and all of which will be priced HIGHER than anything Apple is offering, because dammit high prices MUST mean its good, after all people buy Apple right?

So congrats MSFT haters, you are gonna get to see the company completely self destruct as the PHB in charge torpedoes everything that Gates spent 20+ years building because he is too damned stupid to realize you can't slap a coat of paint on a Pinto and have it compete with Porsche. It took Apple decades to build its rep as a high end brand, Ballmer thinks all he has to do is triple the pricetag on everything and voila! Suddenly Windows is hip and trendy...NOT!

If the board doesn't stop smoking crack and fire this moron I predict in 3 years Apple will own the top, Google will own the bottom, and MSFT will be RIM, with nothing left but legacy business installs and even those will be looking at exit strategies. The truly sad part of it all is the day of the DIY desktop will end, you'll buy a black box Android or Apple and that will be that, unless you have workstation money it'll all be black box like the ChromeBooks.

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Re:Will Microsoft call on Burson-Marsteller to fix by Crosshair84 · 2013-01-01 08:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

I can't find it anymore,but I had to laugh when there was a poll awhile ago that said 50% of people who tried windows 8 liked it. Just looking at the sales numbers told you that as BS. When reality and your poll numbers don't match, chances are reality is correct.

I just don't see everything going black box though, there is just too much need for a general purpose OS. If anything, someone will come out with a BSD variant or something. As long as the OS UI is as good as Windows 98 or better that will be good enough for businesses. (It better be a lot more stable of course.)

I simply can't see Balmer lasting much longer. They have the code to put a Windows 7 style interface in 8, they just stripped it out. All it would take is a service pack to put that back in there. They'll slap a new name on it though, like Windows 8 second edition or something, perhaps give it the windows 9 label. The board is probably making plans to get rid of him, they just need to find a replacement and give Balmer a little more rope to hang himself with. They are probably trying to figure out how Gates is going to react to Balmer getting the boot.

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