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The Science of Game Strategy

First time accepted submitter JacobAlexander writes "Writing in PNAS, a University of Manchester physicist has discovered that some games are simply impossible to fully learn, or too complex for the human mind to understand. Dr Tobias Galla from The University of Manchester and Professor Doyne Farmer from Oxford University and the Santa Fe Institute, ran thousands of simulations of two-player games to see how human behavior affects their decision-making. From the article: 'In simple games with a small number of moves, such as Noughts and Crosses the optimal strategy is easy to guess, and the game quickly becomes uninteresting. However, when games became more complex and when there are a lot of moves, such as in chess, the board game Go or complex card games, the academics argue that players' actions become less rational and that it is hard to find optimal strategies.'"

33 of 136 comments (clear)

  1. Isn't that the whole point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Isn't that the whole point?

    1. Re:Isn't that the whole point? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 5, Funny

      The point of doing social science research? Yes. Anybody can "argue that players' actions become less rational and that it is hard to find optimal strategies."
      It takes an academic to lay the argument out in a paper so Byzantine that it's hard to find optimal reading strategies.
      This triggers the writing of more papers, until an entire academic research field springs from a single seed of "Duh".

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    2. Re:Isn't that the whole point? by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 4, Funny

      My Board Game Geek badge says "RANDOM TACTICS".

      Confuse, deflate, conquer. It's worked very well for me. Nobody can anticipate your moves if you're not even sure what you're going to do next.

      I've actually had one game where everyone else at the table just stopped, stared at the board, and one guy said quietly, "I really wasn't expecting you to do that."

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    3. Re:Isn't that the whole point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Getting naked and dropping the soap is not a typical move when you go to Jail in Monopoly.

    4. Re:Isn't that the whole point? by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It was a long space strategy game, and instead of ganking the huge fleet everyone else was attacking, I went zig instead and wiped out the home planet of the guy with the most victory points. I had quietly upgraded my ships to go further than anyone else, so it was seriously out of nowhere.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
  2. What about Magic? by xevioso · · Score: 2

    As in Magic the Gathering? The card game with 12,000+ individual cards? In my honest opinion, it's the greatest game ever made. It's incredibly complex, and yet still understandable.

    It's always amazing to be playing at a multiplayer table with a bunch of other folks, each player with a field full of cards, sometimes hundreds of cards on the table (in complex games) and sometimes I have to step back from the table, stare at the board position, and pinch myself that I'm playing a game where yes, everything on the table makes sense.

    1. Re:What about Magic? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure that the optimal strategy with Magic is just to wait until Wizards of the Coast is feeling a bit pinched and decides to release a new, more powerful, bunch of cards that you just can't stay competitive without buying and then go buy those...

    2. Re:What about Magic? by fredprado · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it is a matter of taste, but a game that purposely allows for unfair circumstances based on the cards you own or not does not seem to be a good game for me. I am also not very found of the idea that complex (and in Magic's case Encyclopedic) rules are a good thing for a game.

      Great games, in my opinion, would be Chess or Go, for example. Games that have incredibly simple rules and still lead to incredibly complex situations and strategies.

    3. Re:What about Magic? by gauauu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As in Magic the Gathering? The card game with 12,000+ individual cards? In my honest opinion, it's the greatest game ever made.

      In my opinion, any game where a higher budget gives players more strategic options, is immediately disqualified from being the "greatest game ever made." I might be able to play the game with a $10 investment in a starter pack, but I will lose 100% of the time against players with a bigger budget, no matter what my skill level is.

      That's great in terms of profit for the game producer, but pretty weak in terms of actual gameplay.

      (That's not to say I don't think Magic is a decent game. It is. But the collectible nature weakens the game in terms of pure gameplay.)

    4. Re:What about Magic? by vlm · · Score: 2

      If MtG is Turing Complete (and it is, see link below) that would imply there is theoretically no optimum strategy because you could have two turing machines playing an arbitrarily complicated program against each other and the only way to solve the halting problem is to run the game... correct or not?

      Or maybe another way to phrase it is two Turing machines could play an unsolved / unsolvable problem, like maybe a hard AI algorithm, against each other using MtG cards?

      Of course proving an unsolvable strategy exists is pretty far from proving a simpler solved strategy exists or not.

      http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/index.html

      I don't know enough MtG to understand the link but it looks interesting.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:What about Magic? by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, M:tG has both 'resource complexity', there are a vast number of possible cards you can play with and they do an equally vast number of slightly different things, and it also has what you are calling 'strategic' (though I would say most of these games have strategy AND tactics) complexity. That is even if you play the same 2 M:tG decks against each other many many times the players are likely to be able to make a number of different tactical choices in each game. Actually I think the tactical depth and strategic depth of chess are a good bit higher than with M:tG, but its a fairly complex game with a huge number of setup options (IE how you make your deck). The tactical consequences of a move or the strategic consequences of learning certain lines or aspects of the game in chess are however more significant than the individual moves in M:tG, which can often be quite insignificant.

      Go of course occupies the uttermost extreme in terms of being utterly simple in form and yet so immensely complex in both strategic and tactical depth that no software yet written even approaches the better human players.

      --
      "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    6. Re:What about Magic? by Gamer_2k4 · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you draw nothing but lands, you're screwed. Get no lands, you're screwed.

      This, without exception, is my biggest problem with Magic. No matter how good you are or how good your deck is, it's realistically very possible to be completely screwed out of a game by the random nature of your deck.

      That's probably the reason I'm such a fan of Dominion. It's a card game where strategy is truly the only difference between winners and losers. Add in its low cost of entry and high replayability, and you got a game that's (in my opinion) much better made than Magic.

    7. Re:What about Magic? by Hatta · · Score: 2

      As in Magic the Gathering? The card game with 12,000+ individual cards? In my honest opinion, it's the greatest game ever made. It's incredibly complex, and yet still understandable.

      Yes, it's very understandable that you're being used as a cash cow. What I don't understand is why anyone would play a game where the rules are continually adjusted to whatever makes a private company the most profit.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:What about Magic? by oreaq · · Score: 2

      If MtG is Turing Complete (and it is, see link below) that would imply there is theoretically no optimum strategy

      Depends on your definition of optimal strategy. The existence of a Nash Equilibrium, i. e. a set of strategies, one for each player, such that no player has a incentive to unilaterally change his action (because changing would increase loss/ decrease win), can usually be proven without actually finding theses optimal strategies for each player. Examples: Every finite game has Nash Equilibria (obv!). Every game with compact strategy sets and continuous utility function has Nash Equilibria (Kakutani FP Theorem). And so on. Note that in game theory the term "strategy" means the complete set of actions the player will take at any stage of the game. Also note that a optimal strategy does not guarantee maximum payout against every opponent's strategy. These strategies tend to not exist for anything but the most trivial games.

      I don't know the rules to MtG so no idea if it falls in one of the two examples i gave but pretty much every game thats exist outside math faculties does :)

    9. Re:What about Magic? by xevioso · · Score: 2

      This is only if you play competitively. There's nothing stopping you from printing your own cards and playing with your friends. The rules of game play are the same either way.

      In addition, and most important, the "budget" issue goes away in multiplayer games. Your nifty 100$ planewalker or $5000 power 9 deck is pretty easily handled in a multiplayer game where the chances of a number of players having cards to deal with your crap is increased 3 (or more)fold

    10. Re:What about Magic? by xevioso · · Score: 2

      And yet the top players rarely get screwed out of lands when they play. The top players finely tune their decks and play them repeatedly in playtesting to ensure that this happens rarely. You don't get to be a top-8 pro player by getting screwed out of lands.

      There's randomness in Poker as well, of course, but as a judge pointed out in a recent case determining, for legal purposes, whether or not poker was a game of strategy or chance, there's something to be said when the top players in the world keep showing up again and again at the final tables in tournaments. It's because they are GOOD players, and minimize the disruption caused by randomness.

      Magic is the same way. The top players build their decks to minimize being land-screwed, by thinning out their decks early, pulling out and playing lands with various cards that do these things to ensure that later int he game they will only draw good cards and not lands. All the top players do this.

    11. Re:What about Magic? by Momomoto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree 100%. A lot of people will say that you don't have to spend a lot of money to make a deck that wins. Those people are kidding themselves! Sometimes, you've just gotta pay the money to get the good cards.

      Luckily, there are formats that are designed to reward skill more than the size of your bank account: sealed deck and booster draft. Both require participants to buy unopened packs and use them, but paying $15 or $25 every once in a while is far less expensive in the long run.

      --
      "Max, come over here. French-Canadian bean soup. I want to pay. Let them leave me alone." - Dutch Schultz
    12. Re:What about Magic? by vux984 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm pretty sure that the optimal strategy with Magic is just to wait until Wizards of the Coast is feeling a bit pinched and decides to release a new, more powerful, bunch of cards that you just can't stay competitive without buying and then go buy those...

      Yes, and no. Mostly no.

      You need to purchase the new cards because to be competitive, (as in participate in tournaments) you need to be using cards from the current block. The old cards, simply aren't permitted in the block.

      (Although many old cards from various old sets are reprinted in the current set, and you can play with the originals of any reprinted card if you have the original.)

      That effectively solves the power-inflation problem. This years set doesn't have to be more powerful than last years set to appeal to players because nobody is using last years set in competitions. That was, frankly, a very smart move by wotc for the overall health of the game.

      Each year the game changes, but the cards aren't on a permanent run towards ever more power. They can even print cards that are strictly inferior to existing cards and those cards can still be desirable due to what is currently allowed.

      Of course, yes, you do still have to buy this years set to play competitively which is a smart move from a business point of view. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to keep buying cards.

      But pre-constructed is just one format, and there are many; draft games are quite popular where you build your deck on the fly from a pool of available cards (which can new unopened packs in sanctioned tournements, to one of your friends piles of commons in an informal setting... and then play with that. Many many players prefer various draft formats both in tournaments and in private because it does to a large degree eliminate having to buy the expensive rares to be competitive.

    13. Re:What about Magic? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      You need to purchase the new cards because to be competitive, (as in participate in tournaments) you need to be using cards from the current block. The old cards, simply aren't permitted in the block.

      Suddenly I don't feel so bad about giving money to Games Workshop. At least I can still use my first edition miniatures, which is really handy since some of them are MUCH smaller than the later models.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:What about Magic? by Afty0r · · Score: 2

      But there is a ceiling to how much "budget" you can assign to the game... the "best" decks for most tournaments are either almost unchanging over time (the expensive, Legacy decks) or are limited to a few hundred quid (Standard Decks). It's also fair to say that as soon as you move from even remotely casual play to basic competitive play, EVERYONE has the cards they need - while some players might have had to pay out some money to meet that minimum competitive level, there are few to zero players who sit at a table playing a "cheap" deck of cards and suffering from a statistical disadvantage - everyone gets what they need, so the "higher budget more options" argument only applies to maybe 20% of players on the lower end of the competitive scale. Once you enter the competitive realm, the playing field is very flat in terms of budget, and mostly comes down to information warfare (research, preparation, networking).

      And if you're good at the game you will be acquiring cards for free from prizes at a very fast rate - the best local players, who do NOT make it to the Pro Tour, pay little to nothing to play the game... they win the majority of the cards they need, and can borrow others from traders/stores in return for promoting the stores. The "cost" of the game to newer or weaker players is actually subsidising the better players in many ways - although the money changes hands in ways completely different from poker, it results in a fairly similar outcome (admittedly with much smaller amounts).

      Finally, the aspect of the game known for being most skill-intensive is called "Limited" where everyone pays the same price to play and plays with cards provided, rather than cards they have bought/collected - here financial muscle is no advantage at all, and this form of the game is more enjoyable and rewarding to many players.

  3. That's the fun of it... by DaemonDan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not being able to "solve" games like chess like you can with Tic-Tac-Toe (http://xkcd.com/832/) is what makes them fun and playable. Otherwise it quickly gets boring. It's also why it isn't always as fun to play against the computer on really high levels. They can cheat and solve the next bajillion moves.

    --
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    1. Re:That's the fun of it... by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2

      I'd disagree with that premise. If I use a computer to calculate the odds of winning every next possible move and use that information to my advantage, wouldn't I be considered cheating? Why does that same logic not apply to AI opponents?

    2. Re:That's the fun of it... by girlintraining · · Score: 2

      It's also why it isn't always as fun to play against the computer on really high levels.

      What's interesting is that while computers can handily beat a person at chess, the best AI yet developed is no match against a person in a real time strategy game, or a turn-based strategy game like Civilization. While the author is quick to point out humans don't pick the most optimal strategy in a complex environment, he fails to note that humans usally beat computers in the same environments. Computers have to brute force their way through a problem, and can only find the optimal path when given parameters to conduct the search. Humans don't require any setup ahead of time, and can find a solution to the problem (not necessarily, the optimal one, but one that works) using far less computational resources: A person can learn Go in an afternoon -- perhaps 20,000 distinct thoughts. A computer couldn't find it's own ass in 20,000 operations... it'd still be allocating memory!

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
  4. Complex games are even hard for computers. by Morpf · · Score: 2

    Even for computers it is really hard to find an optimal strategy for Go. To my knowledge it's still a research topic. No surprise it's even harder for humans. Concerning how much effort was needed to research and program software, that beats a human in chess, I thought it would have been well known, that humans can't find an optimal strategy in this game either.

  5. Beat the opponent, don't find the best strategy by tp1024 · · Score: 2

    The point of a two player game, like Go, is to beat the opponent. If you know your opponent doesn't like a certain kind of opening, or is likely to feel overconfident in certain positions, thus creating weaknesses for you to exploit - this is a viable strategy, provided it works.

    However, the better the players the more they look down upon such things - and rightfully so - because they learned the hard way that weak moves will be punished by good players.

    1. Re:Beat the opponent, don't find the best strategy by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Even high-level players do tend to use a bit of that kind of thing. Kasparov mentioned that was one of the odd things about playing Deep Blue, that unlike playing another grandmaster, there wasn't this human meta-game element: he couldn't intimidate the machine into screwing up.

    2. Re:Beat the opponent, don't find the best strategy by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 2

      Yeah, if you look at Karpov, Kasparov, Fisher, etc etc etc, you rapidly see that high level chess is rife with 'meta-game'. There are other levels of meta-game as well. Players will master different types of game and different lines, focus on different parts of the game, etc. Some players are more defensive, others more offensive, some more tactical, like Kasparov, others more strategic. One player might be a master of specific styles of opening lines, and other might be a mid-game generalist or an expert at end games. Players will also tweak their game and their focus of study in order to better match other players they are likely to face. The game is RICH in possibilities and thus allows for many different successful approaches. One can almost say that a tournament between top players is more a matchup of overall strategies than one of tactics, though the individual moves of each game in the end are where the action is.

      --
      "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  6. Re:So what he's really saying is... by Morpf · · Score: 2

    Wrong. There is an optimal strategy, but most likely you will find it only by chance.

  7. Makes sense. by tool462 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's why they're fun. With a solvable game, you play the game. With an unsolvable game, you play the player.

    Of course, it's a lot less fun once you're playing the stock market or global thermonuclear war, but no less rewarding.
    And of course of course, they're neglecting that any attempt at predicting the behavior of a market will affect the behavior of that market such that the predictions no longer hold true.

    Kudos to anyone who can pull off the ultimate hack: invest your money based on your -unpublished- theory of how the market will respond the theory that you ARE about to publish.

  8. noughts and crosses? by callmebill · · Score: 2

    I'm guessing "noughts and crosses" is "tic tac toe".

  9. Confusion - people are not computers. by gurps_npc · · Score: 2
    They are not talking about the too complicated for people to play, They mean too complicated for a computer to play 'perfectly..

    No one insults a baseball player because he only hit a triple, rather than a home run. But in their definition of game play, they expect every single move to be the best one possible. That is how COMPUTERS play games, not how people do. Computers make calculations based on all possible moves. That is not how people play at all.

    Instead, people play the odds. We work in the murky world of probably rather than optimal. Which is why humans will always beat a computer playing Go, even if we lose in Chess.

    Games are not about picking the optimal move. Instead they are either about:

    Having fun

    LEARNING which moves are better and which moves are worse

    Both. That is what all play is about. Having fun, learning how to do things, or both. Knowing the optimal moves ahead of time means you can't learn and you can't really have fun.

    What they are talking about is trying to win the game for ever and ever. When we do that, we move on to another game.

    Just like when I learned how to always win at tic tac toe.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Confusion - people are not computers. by niado · · Score: 2

      humans currently can beat a computer playing Go, even if we lose in Chess.

      FTFY. Go, like Chess, is theoretically solvable, since it is, after all, a game of perfect information. Perhaps neither game will ever be truly solved, but even in Go computers are very likely to become unbeatable eventually, and probably sooner rather than later.

  10. Bad reading warning by ecotax · · Score: 2

    From TFA:

    We assume that the players learn their strategies x via a form of reinforcement learning called experience weighted attraction. This has been extensively studied by experimental economists who have shown that it provides a reasonable approximation for how real people learn in games.

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