Peugeot Citroen To Introduce Compressed Air Hybrid By 2016

cylonlover writes "With a few exceptions, such as Volvo's Air Motion Concept, major automotive manufacturers have generally shied away from compressed air technology. PSA Peugeot Citroen is bucking this trend with its 'Hybrid Air' powertrain that addresses the limited range of compressed air energy storage technology by combining it with a gasoline powered internal combustion engine. The company plans to have Hybrid Air powered vehicles on the road by 2016."

Comments

Oh my, what about the backfires on that thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll sound like a chorus of bean-eating senior citizens.

Re:Oh my, what about the backfires on that thing?

[cayenne8]

I dub it....the Fartmobile

WHAT BETTER TO FEED YOUR FLAMING DEATH ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Than a tank full of compressed air to feed your burning fuel !!

Re:WHAT BETTER TO FEED YOUR FLAMING DEATH ??

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Well, If the air was pure hydrogen or oxygen, that would be a better way for sure.

Re:WHAT BETTER TO FEED YOUR FLAMING DEATH ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Mixture of the two at exactly 2:1 (molar) ratio would be ideal, as far as I can tell.

Re:WHAT BETTER TO FEED YOUR FLAMING DEATH ??

[Guignol]

Nonsense, that would be water, one of the most evil substances known to man
You don't want to drink it, you don't want to power your car with it
There must be some good reason they have to bless it after all

Rush

[Citizen of Earth]

Suddenly ahead of me
Across the mountainside
A gleaming alloy air car
Shoots towards me, two lanes wide

Re:Rush

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, but that's not what we meant by that

Re:Rush

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

We mean this car blows.

Re:Rush

[cplusplus]

Not only do they blow, but they also suck (when doing regenerative braking)...

Re:Rush

[ArsonSmith]

New car tag line, "Our brakes suck, but the acceleration blows."

Re:Rush

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost certainly not; but given the poor energy density of compressed air you'd probably need something two lanes wide to have any hope for a practical patrol vehicle.

I, for one, welcome our new hot-air overlords.

[Zondar]

So much different than our current ones....

Wait - what?

great idea

[slashmydots]

So they've already got the fact that they got like 12 miles then have to refill, they're loud, they aren't durable, they're dangerous, and nobody has heard of them AND now nobody can pronounce their name. Sounds like great marketing to me.

Re:great idea

[stephanruby]

Hopefully, this baby will come with its own hand pumps, to put your passengers to work.

Re:great idea

[h4rr4r]

No one has heard of who?

These are major car brands in the EU.

Re:great idea

[compro01]

So they've already got the fact that they got like 12 miles then have to refill

That's why it's a hybrid.

Re:great idea

[icebike]

Yes, a hybrid of an internal combustion engine, and a hydraulic pump/motor unit recovers energy generated by the ICE and from braking and deceleration.

PSA says for city driving, its Hybrid Air system provides fuel savings of 45 percent and increases a vehicle’s range by 90 percent compared to conventional engines with the same power rating. In standard body styles the company says the system achieves certified fuel consumption (combined cycle) figures of 2.9 l/100 km (81 mpg) and CO2 emissions of around 69 g/km.

(The current voluntary target for CO2 in EC legislation limits average CO2 emissions from the European fleet of cars to 120 g CO2/km.
Oddly, Peugeot chooses to mention this voluntary target rather than indicate the degree to which the obligatory standards would be met.)

Mileage would be pretty impressive if they could actually achieve it in typical Euro city driving conditions. And it has the advantage of not requiring a heavy battery pack which can cost around 7 grand.

Unstated is what percentage of the time the engine must run to accommodate the typical trip, and keep the air tank topped up.

Re:great idea

[mattack2]

Oh come on, doesn't everybody know that Columbo's car was a Peugeot?

Re:great idea

[Anonymous Coward]

So they've already got the fact that they got like 12 miles then have to refill, they're loud, they aren't durable, they're dangerous, and nobody has heard of them AND now nobody can pronounce their name. Sounds like great marketing to me.

As someone else said, they are well known in Europe. But I bet you have seen plenty of an older Citroen model in different movies. I smile each time I see them. I'm from Denmark and one of my parents neighbor, build one from scratch. Created his own frame and got bits and pieces from all over Europe.

Re:great idea

[RockDoctor]

My current (a 2011 VW) has a book mileage of 71mpg@56mph ; but in the real world, with it being the wife's get-to-work car, we average around 45mpg. So, from a book mileage of "81", I'd expect real figures to be around 50-55mpg. Though with it being a hybrid, their "real" and "book" figures may be closer.

I'd have to give this serious consideration when it comes to replacing the VW time.

Re:great idea

[KozmoStevnNaut]

VW has a history of making bold claims about fuel economy and failing to meet them. An acquaintance of mine drives a Seat Ibiza Ecomotive, a 1.2L 3-cylinder turbodiesel super-economobile, basically the same as a VW Polo Bluemotion. Its fuel consumption is 69 US MPG on paper, but it's rare that he even gets above 50 US MPG, driving normally.

Meanwhile, I drive a 12-year-old Peugeot 406 with a 2.2L gasoline engine and no particular fuel-saving initiatives. Fuel consumption on paper is 26.5 US MPG, I average 26.3 US MPG with a mix of both normal and 'spirited' driving. My parents drive a 12-year-old CitroÃn C5 with a 2.0L engine, their consumption figures pretty much match mine (it's a heavier car).

So there you have it, anectdotal evidence show us that Peugeot CitroÃn are much more truthful in their mileage estimates than VW is.

Re:great idea

[RockDoctor]

Interesting. I'll mentally file that for car-replacement time. In the next 2 to 10 years, depending on various things like if the wife wants to change.

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

The French couldn't even fix a car let alone build one!

Re:LOL

[SternisheFan]

The French couldn't even fix a car let alone build one!

Remember the French made "Le Car"?

Years ago in upstate N.Y. I saw a beater of a red 'Le Car' parked at a roadside. The owner must've had a good sense of humor about owning it. He had the side door lettering changed from "Le Car" to "Le Crap"!

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

The French couldn't even fix a car let alone build one!

Let me guess. They get started and then just give up?

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a couple of guys down the street, one with a Datsun truck, and the other with a Subaru Brat, both have stickers on the back of those tiny things that reads:

"actual size" ...quite cute.

Re:LOL

[Gordonjcp]

You know those funny little Citroen (dear /. janitors, please fix your bloody character encodings) 2CVs? With the little two-cylinder engines?

Yes, the little two-cylinder engine that produced around 60bhp/litre in its final form in the late 1970s. The little two-cylinder engine with alloy heads, pistons and crank-case (the prototypes were magnesium but that was too expensive) and drop-forged crank, borrowing heavily from fighter aircraft engines of the day. And then that engine, fitted into a body designed to protect the occupants in an accident - it was the first car designed so that the engine would break off its mountings and slide under the floor in a front impact, rather than back through the bulkhead and into the front seat occupant's legs.

Back in the 70s they could do well over 60mpg at safe motorway speeds. The French *can* make cars, and they make them better than Americans.

Here's a hint, America - no-one wants to buy your heavy, slow, ugly gutless V8s. They suck.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, 1HP/cu in really isn't all that impressive.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

The French *can* make cars, and they make them better than Americans.

Here's a hint, America - no-one wants to buy your heavy, slow, ugly gutless V8s. They suck.

Except Americans that is. And Americans don't want your shitty Frogmobiles either :-)

Re:LOL

[Shatrat]

I think your opinion of American cars isn't much more factual than the previous poster's opinion of French ones. Take a look at the new Ford Fusion or Dodge Dart for example.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone always ignores the fact that MPG ratings on European cars for the European market are rated in MPIG - Miles Per Imperial Gallon.

1 imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallons

In reality, the 60 MPG-rated eurocar only gets 50 mpg.

Re:LOL

[noh8rz10]

sorry, wrong. Euro fuel economy is expressed in L/100km. You can convert this to US customary gallons @ 3.7 L per gallon, or Imperial gallons @ 4.3 L per gallon. Conversion rates are off the top of my head, but the point holds.

Re:LOL

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

You know, 1HP/cu in really isn't all that impressive.

Wasn't it about 40 years ago?

Re:LOL

[spectrokid]

The "sahara" version of the 2CV had 2 engines (front and back) and 4WD. It was so light it would easily pass through loose sand where other jeeps got stuck. The "DS" looked like a modern aerodynamical car in 19-frickin-55. Hydro-pneumatic suspension, power steering, swivelling headlights. They sold 12000 the first day. British Top Gear compared the suspension of the C6 to a BMW 7 series by driving around on a horse track with a video camera strapped to the roof. With the Citroen, you could actually see the horses.

Re:LOL

[jcdr]

You should replace "European" in your text by "UK". But UK is an exception about this.
All others European countries use SI units: litre and meter. Usually the car consumption is rated in L/100km.

Re:LOL

[The Grim Reefer]

You know those funny little Citroen (dear /. janitors, please fix your bloody character encodings) 2CVs? With the little two-cylinder engines?

Yes, the little two-cylinder engine that produced around 60bhp/litre in its final form in the late 1970s. The little two-cylinder engine with alloy heads, pistons and crank-case (the prototypes were magnesium but that was too expensive) and drop-forged crank, borrowing heavily from fighter aircraft engines of the day. And then that engine, fitted into a body designed to protect the occupants in an accident - it was the first car designed so that the engine would break off its mountings and slide under the floor in a front impact, rather than back through the bulkhead and into the front seat occupant's legs.

Back in the 70s they could do well over 60mpg at safe motorway speeds.

Citroen has made some pretty nice cars over they years. I didn't know that the 2CV was still being made in the 1970's. The DS was ahead of it's time. I know a lot of people in the US made fun of them, but I always liked them. The CX was an interesting little care too. The SM was probably my favorite car made by Citroen. It too was ahead of its time.

The French *can* make cars, and they make them better than Americans.

Here's a hint, America - no-one wants to buy your heavy, slow, ugly gutless V8s. They suck.

My all aluminum LS1 and 4.0 Aurora engines say otherwise.

Re:LOL

[drerwk]

Best cars I ever owned were an ID-19 from 1969 that regularly gave me 28 MPG, and I was not easy on the pedal; and my 1972 D-Special. Had 200,000 miles on each before I sold them, and I wish I could buy a CIt in the US today - would love a C6.

Re:LOL

[amorsen]

The stupid thing is that nobody in the UK buys fuel by the gallon. It is always sold by the liter.

Also, the signs on the motorway that say "2/3 mile" are placed exactly 1km from the exit, they are just labelled wrong.

Re:LOL

[The_Rook]

the dodge dart is really a fiat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Dart_(2013)

or is at least based on a fiat.

Re:LOL

[jcdr]

Also, the signs on the motorway that say "2/3 mile" are placed exactly 1km from the exit, they are just labelled wrong.

This is certainly a clever decision in case the UK roads will switch to the km notation in a possible future.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/trim/gtpremium/

305 cubic inches and 420hp, not much improvement.

Re:LOL

[Bearhouse]

Owned a 2cv, and loved it, (in its designed-for environment, rural France).

But in a crash, (with roadside tree, for example), you really would be better off in almost anything...

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

France

Engineering

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Go back to Fagistan.

Re:LOL

[Bearhouse]

Agree. I loved my various Citroens, (2cv, SM, CX, XM), except for one thing.
Apart from the 2cv, they broke down all the time.
Extra points for the SM and the XM for being virtually impossible to fix yourself, (and I'm a decent mechanic).

In the end I gave up, and like most people with money and sense in France, my wife and I drive BMW and Mercedes...

Re:LOL

[cluedweasel]

The Ford Fusion? The one designed by Ford Europe? The Ford car range in the US is increasingly built on European designed cars; the Fiesta, Focus, Fusion and C-Max.

Re:LOL

[Bing Tsher E]

It sounds to me like a bureaucratic fight between the guys who cement in the posts and the guys who paint the signs.

Re:LOL

[Gordonjcp]

Well, as another poster has pointed out the Dodge Dart is really just a Fiat with different badges - and that in turn is really just an Alfa-Romeo with a smaller engine.

There is a Ford Fusion sold over here that is basically just a Fiesta with a slightly higher roof. The new Fusion looks like a tarted-up Focus, and again comes with a range of shit engines. It's ugly, and (unless they alter it for the UK/EU market) it doesn't come with a diesel so it's going to be slow and gutless.

They are both utterly pointless cars. They look like they ought to be fast and powerful, but they're not.

Re:LOL

[dbIII]

It's amazing how much crashworthyness has changed. My Uncle hit a large hardwood tree (Australian Grey Gum) at around 120km/hr in a recent Citroen when he had a heart attack while driving. He had sore ribs (partly from seatbelt and partly from CPR) and a detached retina as his injuries.

Compressed air.

[serviscope_minor]

Not many details about it.

I guess you can re-use cylinders from the ICE for compression and expansion, which would save on weight.

Though the main problem with compressed air is that it cools and lowers pressure after it's been compressed, which is a big source of inefficiency. Large amounts of the energy are lost as heat. No mention on how they tackle that. For a lot of hybrid use, I suppose that insulating the tank would work quite well, but they imply that it can run off air for a large amount of the time, suggesting that the air will stay in the tank for a while and therefore cool down substantially.

Still though, batery charging isn't exactly 100% efficient and the simplicity could outweght the reduced efficiency.

Also, free A/C in summer.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm always free, not just in summer.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

They should scratch the compressed air part and use hydrogen per oxide as a storage medium. You can pump small amounts into an expansion chamber and react it like you would for a jet pack and toggle the pump on and off with the pressure inside the expansion tank that would be used to power the compressed air motor.

Something like that would give much further mileage plus a heat source for winter driving. It's relatively low temp compared with burning gas or diesel, and not much more dangerous if you do not use pure h2o2.

Re:Compressed air.

[serviscope_minor]

Then it's just another fuel source.

The point of a hybrid is to recover braking energy.

Re:Compressed air.

[Charliemopps]

You've got that backward. Air gets hot as its compressed. Very hot. To store the kind of PSI they'll need, that tank will be scortching hot unless they have some system to use that heat. Then, when it's released and the air expands, it cools. It says the drive train is hydrolic. I suspect it's a lot like a hydrostatic garden tractor. They've got a pully that when they spin it produces drive. If you've got compressed air driving that pully, and you have a gasoline engine driving it at the same time, the engine would be extremely efficient to begin with... then, as the compressed air tank loses preasure the load on the gasoline engine would become greater, reducing its efficiency. The result is that it's actually a gasoline powered car that gets a great efficiency boost while it still has air in its tank. Once it runs out, its just a normal car. So you can have a very efficient drive to and from work, but trips to grandmas not so much.

Re:Compressed air.

[serviscope_minor]

You've got that backward.

Nope.

Air gets hot as its compressed. Very hot. To store the kind of PSI they'll need, that tank will be scortching hot unless they have some system to use that heat.

The system to use the heat is the air. If it stays hot then there is more stored energy. The problem is that the hot air cools, shedding a large amount of energy which went in to compressing it. That energy is not recoverable.

For example:

Block up the end of a bicycle pump, and compress it down. It will now bounce back with around the same force it was compressed with yielding nearly as muuch energy as went into it.

Now compress it and wait. The force holding it compressed will drop as the air cools, meaning it will bounce back with less force. That energy that you spent compressing it is lost. When you let it bounce back, the force will be lower and you'll get less energy out.

The problem is that good heat insulation (compared to electrical) is hard, so compressed air will loose a fraction of its stored energy by cooling, reducing efficiency.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's saying that while the air heats when compressed it will cool and the pressure will be reduced as it cools, so you will be losing potential energy.

Re:Compressed air.

[h4rr4r]

So instead of air, which is cheap, safe and readily available, you want to use h2o2 which is none of those things. It is also corrosive. The lower the purity of the h2o2 the less energy you are storing.

I see literally no upside to your suggestion.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Yes, I want to go more then a dozen miles before having to refuel or go back to using gasoline.

You seeing no upside is why we are still using gas and oil or trying to kludge together expensive work around to simple solutions. With modern materials, the corrosive aspect is not an issue.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Why couldn't you re-energize the expansion chamber or even fill a tank that works in tandem with the braking energy?

Re:Compressed air.

[bmo]

Compressed air is anything but safe. Pressure vessels are basically bombs if not welded correctly or are damaged, which is why industrial air compressors over a certain pressure/volume need yearly inspection and certification. It's why people who weld pressure vessels get as much money as they do.

At least a fuel tank leaking gasoline is only a fire hazard instead of a hazard that can take out an entire block in one go. Compressed natural gas buses aren't even allowed in tunnels, and CNG is even lower pressure than what is required to run a car on compressed air.

And here's the question. Considering how dumb some people are, do you trust Joe Sixpack to drive around with a fucking bomb?

--
BMO

Re:Compressed air.

[h4rr4r]

How are you planning on making more h2o2 on the fly exactly?

Re:Compressed air.

[babybird]

In terms of work done per fuel consumed, gas engines are much more efficient under heavy load than under light load, so the increased efficiency here is partially an illusion. That's why cars like the Prius always try to run the ICE at a higher load at a lower RPM, which the e-CVT works brilliantly for.

Re:Compressed air.

[Kokuyo]

On the other hand, excess heat from the gas engine could be used to raise efficiency on the compression, no?

Re:Compressed air.

[rwa2]

Well, I suppose they have it insulated well. It just needs to maintain energy through a typical stoplight cycle, so just a few minutes. Or maybe they go full retard and and hook up a stirling engine to the pressure vessel so they can at least extract some useful work out of the heat loss ;-) Well, that might actually be somewhat useful for keeping A/C and accessories powered while the ICE shuts down at stoplights.

I don't really understand why more manufacturers are not using flywheels instead, though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

But I suppose compressed air tanks are simpler and easier to maintain, and can probably be made to release their energy in a safer manner during accidents.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

Though the main problem with compressed air is that it cools and lowers pressure after it's been compressed, which is a big source of inefficiency. Large amounts of the energy are lost as heat. No mention on how they tackle that. For a lot of hybrid use, I suppose that insulating the tank would work quite well, but they imply that it can run off air for a large amount of the time, suggesting that the air will stay in the tank for a while and therefore cool down substantially.

The solution is obvious: use the endless source of hot air that we already have at our disposal... politicians. Just attach a collector to a microphone and turn on a camera. We may need some plants to filter out the bullshit but that will create more jobs. Maybe we can even extract some methane from it.

Political bumper stickers will take on a whole new practical meaning.

Re:Compressed air.

[Dr. Evil]

And fire is gas cooling through convection and radiation while being released in a chemical chain reaction.

It's weird to talk that way.

Re:Compressed air.

[joe_frisch]

In principal you can compress and expand at constant temperature by exchanging heat with the outside air and get high (ideal) efficiency. Imagine many stages of compressors (or expanders) spaced by heat exchangers to ambient. In the limit of LOTS of compressors and expanders, the air never gets hot, and there is no efficiency loss. Real high presure compressors usually have a few stages with coolers inbetween.

I don't know if there is a mechanical trick to make this practical, and I'm too lazy to calculate how many stages you would need to have reasonable (say 80%) efficiency. Maybe some trick to do this is part of their technology. (for example you could imagine all sorts of clever water-spray heat exchangers).

I'm still not convinced that air is a good way to store energy, but there is no fundamental reason it is inefficient.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've missed the point: unless the air is compressed and released isothermally, there will be quite a good deal of lost energy. To be precise, the difference of the heats released during the compression (including storage) and during the release. Also, thinking about fire that way is probably better than a layperson's view. Which of course won't stop any layperson from arguing against it.

Re:Compressed air.

[Dr. Evil]

There will always be lost energy. It's impossible to get around that.

As long as it doesn't ice-up or overheat within the confines of the heating and cooling systems of the car, it's only an engineering problem.

Re:Compressed air.

[Alien Being]

That reminds me of these things:

http://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/Ford-Flathead-V-8-Compressor,3541.html

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly does make compressed air so much more dangerous than an liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) installation, which are also high pressure and quite common in europe, and by no means prohibited in tunnels.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anne Thwacks]

If this is made in Europe, then I guarantee the welding will be done by well trained robots, and not third world immigrants.

CNG is known to burn vigorously, while air is known not to. I agree a small puncture might be a risk, but I think you will find that all trucks (in Europe anyway) have air brakes that require storing significant amounts of air at 10-12 atmospheres, and have done since before 1950. I dont recall a single accident where escaping air caused a fatality. (European trains use the same air braking system, and I think US ones do as well, judging by the movies).

Damn right: Joe Sixpack should not be allowed near a gasolene powered car, but you in America support the right to arm bears, so obviously, risks are on a different scale that side of the water.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anne Thwacks]

However, sensible people use Diesel engines, for which low load efficiency is much less of an issue.

Re:Compressed air.

[WoOS]

I agree to the lack of details. There is some additional information on the PSA page about this, including two presentations (the press presentation is actually better than the "technical" one).
But nowhere can I find how much energy they can store with compressed air. I would imagine it is not very much so the "Zero emission" runs mentioned on the PSA page might be quite short.

Re:Compressed air.

[babybird]

It's less of an issue, but it's still an issue because that's the way physics works. There are many benefits to diesel engines-- and consumers here in the U.S. should be more aware of them-- but for whatever reason, we're not. I've always wondered why that is. Any idea?

Re:Compressed air.

[Reverand Dave]

1. Natural Gas is flammable even if there is no compression so it's kind of dangerous regardless of compression state, and NG is toxic if inhaled in high concentrations. Uncompressed air is just, well, air so a leak in a CNG tank regardless of explosive potential is a potential breathing hazard as well.
2. Exactly how big do you think these tanks are going to be that if ruptured there would be enough energy release to blow up a city block? I somehow doubt that these tanks are going to be large enough to hold enough pressure to be a potential large scale disaster for the exact reasons you've already stated.
3. Are you actually advocating the use of a toxic and corrosive chemical (H2O2) that when released might need a hazmat team to clean up? Why don't we just start using Mercury vapor lights for our headlights too?

Re:Compressed air.

[sjames]

I don't know if they do, but they could re-warm the compressed air using the exhaust heat from the ICE.

Re:Compressed air.

[mattack2]

They (at least used to) stink and let out lots of soot.

Though I wish there were more (any?) diesel hybrids instead of gas hybrids.

Re:Compressed air.

[babybird]

Diesel hybrids aren't really practical due to the way they work. Diesel engines just aren't suited to being started and stopped constantly like that, and because of the high compression ratios needed for diesel to work, it wastes quite a lot more energy every time the hybrid system has to restart the engine (then there's the heat and lack of heat problem-- my Prius often has to waste a bit of fuel just to keep the combustion system warm enough to control emissions as it is). I think that's one of the big reasons Toyota decided to use their modified pseudo-Atkinson cycle engine instead for their hybrid systems-- they spent a ton of time and money researching and developing it, and it's the most popular system today because it's so well designed. The variable compression ratio makes them a lot more efficient than diesel would be in the long run too, although the efficiency is relatively close in most cases. But I suspect that the main reason is that of emissions. You can keep the emissions much lower with gas than with diesel if that's what you tune it for.

You're right about the (ancient) notions of diesel in the U.S. though. I've seen a lot of modern Mercedes diesels here in the U.S., and unless you know what the Blu-tech badge means, I think most Americans wouldn't have any idea they weren't running on ordinary gasoline. The technology has come a long way since the old days, although since American trucks are about the only diesels most people here see, they probably believe the smoke-belching, noisy behemoths are the only way diesel can run even today.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

They tried this before with city busses and it failed horribly, called Gyrobusses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus). The biggest problems were that a flywheel is incredibly heavy and did not last very long (to carry 20 people 20 km you need a 3 ton flywheel, most busses could go 5-6km); the flywheel would act as a gyroscope and make it very difficult to turn; and they were incredibly dangerous in the event of a crash because you have this big, heavy piece of metal spinning at thousands of RPMs flying out of your vehicle.

Flywheels are great for energy storage when the generators are stationary. Once you try to move them they suck.

Re:Compressed air.

[Quila]

Ah, but in hot weather you have automatic air conditioning, just need to blow a fan by the cylinder into the passenger compartment.

Re:Compressed air.

[jcdr]

Petroleum chemistry don't allow to produce arbitrary ratio of diesel compared to others products. The overall consumption have to match the ration that refineries can produce. So if the the diesel consumption increase, then his price will raise and the others products price will fall. This is exactly what happened in many European countries since the diesel have been promoted. Some government still try to biased the price by the taxes, but this cannot change the petroleum chemistry facts.

Ok, diesel have more couple and a higher stored energy density. But it's not ideal either. Even new cars of European manufacturers that have years of experience with small diesel engine, still make car that are more noisy and smell bad, not counting the small particles that fill the town and are increasingly suspected to play a role in some lung cancer.

Diesel will not disappear, precisely because of the petroleum chemistry, but it's still preferable to use it in heavy engines that can get the required heavy exhaust gas processing without scarify substantial efficiency and without increasing the total cost too much. It's really less comfortable to use a lot of diesel in a town because of the noise, the smell, and the particles.

Re:Compressed air.

[mattack2]

Diesel engines just aren't suited to being started and stopped constantly like that

But do all hybrids actually stop/start the gas engine very often? I thought that wasn't always used. So would a "use the battery until it's empty, then use the diesel engine to charge the battery" type of hybrid work?

You're right about the (ancient) notions of diesel in the U.S. though.

I did say "at least used to", though sometimes I'll smell a burning smell not coming from my car (heh).. Isn't that the smell of a diesel? Yeah, I should look around at nearby cars when that happens to look for a diesel badge.

Re:Compressed air.

[bmo]

>NG is toxic if inhaled in high concentrations.

No it isn't. The only hazard is asphyxia.

Also, flammability is not the same as explosion risk. Gasoline, contrary to the cinema, is not as much of an explosion risk as compressed air or CNG.

2. Exactly how big do you think these tanks are going to be that if ruptured there would be enough energy release to blow up a city block?

Take the energy to push a car for an hour.

Now put that in a pressure vessel. Since it will be in a car, it will be a very high pressure in a very small space.

It takes about 17hp to keep a car at speed on the highway, totally ignoring acceleration, wind, etc (I calculated this a long time ago, backwards from mpg data assuming a typical 30 percent engine efficiency).

For an hour, that is 45.59MJ of energy assuming no losses. That is the *minimum* you need to store. .0109 tons of TNT, or 22 pounds of TNT, which is quite a lot.

>h2o2 is toxic

No it isn't. It's an oxidizer. When paired with other chemicals, the result may be, but H2O2 by itself is not terribly toxic and does not require hazmat (just give it room and time to evaporate/decompose and flood it with water. Read the MSDS.). It has many uses from rocket motors to propelling torpedoes. We've been using it as an oxidizer since WWII. But due to Homeland Security silliness, access is barred for most people now.

You suck at facts.

--
BMO

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

The same way you make gasoline on the fly- you go to a filling station. The only significant difference in this system would be a h2o2 tank instead of an internal combustion engine and a lot further range.

Think of it this way, imagine the h2o2 as 30 tanks of compressed air squeezed into the same space as 1 tank of compressed air. If 1 tank gives you 12 miles, you could have over 300 miles with h2o2.

Re:Compressed air.

[Belial6]

Ideally, they could use heat exchangers to cool the air as it compresses from the wind with the car moving, and use the cooled compressed air as both a coolant to the gas engine, while using the absorbed heat to increase the pressure in the air tank. Thus, recapturing energy that was previously being bled off as waste.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

Compressed air is by no means compressed gas.
Gas explodes and then catches fire, a compressed air tank exploding would not bring down anything else then the car's hood and maybe a leg from the driver, but not a block or a building, come on.
It just ruptures and maybe sends debris all over, but it's by no means an explosion that releases energy the way a chemical bomb does.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would not want to have anyone hurt, but watching the flywheel burst from the bus, and thunder down the road would be awesome

Re:Compressed air.

[serviscope_minor]

Now that is a very interesting point.

They do claim it can run for a while on compressed air, though.

Excellent insulation coupled with a heat jacket from the exhaust could work.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your answers are pedantic and boring.

OK natural gas won't poison you, it asphyxiates you. Oh, and it's highly flammable so it could burn you to death, either before, during, or after asphyxiating you. But it's *not toxic*!

OK, hydrogen peroxide won't poison you, it will oxidize you. Oxidation is the same chemical reaction as flame so it too could burn you to death. But it's *not toxic*!

To any average citizen, you've outlined a distinction without a difference.

Re:Compressed air.

[dfghjk]

I have yet to see a argument to justify claims of a "good deal" or a "large amount" of energy lost nor frankly do I expect to. That would require more than the most basic understanding of the issue.

Re:Compressed air.

[bmo]

>If this is made in Europe, then I guarantee the welding will be done by well trained robots, and not third world immigrants.

You know nothing about this subject. No, really, that statement came squarely out of your ass.

>have air brakes that require storing significant amounts of air at 10-12 atmospheres, and have done since before 1950.

Having enough air to propel a car and having air brakes are two entirely different amounts of air and pressure. I'll give you three guesses as to which has more.

As for your signature

Yes. Yes they absolutely can be wrong.

--
BMO

Re:Compressed air.

[bmo]

>Your answers are pedantic and boring.

And you're a moron.

--
BMO

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

While of different scales, intensities of cleanup, and environmental impacts versus H2O2, gasoline and diesel spills from automobiles and trucks can call for hazmat cleanups, here in the US at least. /nitpicking note

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your answers are pedantic and boring.

The above is a riposte typical of someone who should not be allowed
to breed.

You fucking cretins pollute the world with your existence.

Die.

Re:Compressed air.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Though the main problem with compressed air is that it cools and lowers pressure after it's been compressed, which is a big source of inefficiency. "

That's the way we divers like it.

Re:Compressed air.

[cnaumann]

You are partly right, but things are not quite that bad.

You are right in that you don't want to compress air into a hot tank and then allow the tank to cool. That is energy lost. But just because gas will get hot if you compress it quickly in an insulated container does not mean you have to _let_ it get hot as you compress it.

If you compress the gas in such a way that it does not get hot (be efficient in removing the heat of compression) and expand the gas in such a way that it does not get cold (be efficient in re-supplying heat) the efficiency of compressed gas as a storage system approaches 100%.

It seems somewhat contrary, but to be efficient you either need to preserve all the heat of compression (the compressor and tank are perfect heat insulators) or absolutely none of it (the compressor and are perfect heat conductors to ambient). Anything in between results in inefficiency.

Re:Compressed air.

[Per Wigren]

Another significant difference is that your solution requires modifying filling stations whereas this hybrid air engine doesn't. Therefore, in the short term, air wins.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

You are trying to solve a different problem to the one this vehicle's designers set out to solve. This is about stop-start traffic and recovering potential energy from going down hills instead of highway driving and maximum range. It's about using less fuel in the first place instead of getting the most out of the fuel you have.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

The proposal is for short time storage of not a great deal of energy, just like having a flywheel in a bus but in a situation where there isn't enough room for a large flywheel. It's not going to be much of a bomb given how much of a compressor you need to get high pressures (eg. oxygen bottle for welding - now that's a bomb) and the greatly reduced capabilities of the sort of compressor you can move around in a small car and power by regenerative braking.

Re:Compressed air.

[bmo]

And you also suck at physics.

>It just ruptures and maybe sends debris all over,

It's like you've never heard of a steam boiler exploding, which is still even lower than the pressures we're talking about when we want to propel a car for 10 minutes.

This should be fucking apparent to anyone who ever took HS physics. But either you slept through class or didn't bother. Either of which makes you an idiot.

--
BMO

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Yeah, but I guess my point was that the fuel could be cleaner and pretro fuels avoided altogether by using this guys drive train with h2o2. it also gets around the use of battery packs and so on. A much more practical car can be made that is useful to quite a larger audience.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Modifications would be insignificant. Most likely, it would be self contained drop in units or even solar units in the owner's back yard that creates the h2o2. with a 300+ mile range and the exhaust being water and oxygen, it's not any more complicated then current tech trying to achieve the same results.

Re:Compressed air.

[Per Wigren]

It doesn't matter how insignificant the modifications are. As long as there are any at all, most stations won't lift a finger until there is an actual (as in not hypothetical) consumer demand for it. Which creates a chicken-and-egg problem because not many people will buy the car (pay the extra price for the new engine vs a proven old petrol/diesel engine) until the filling station coverage is at least 90%. Of course, with political pressure things could happen faster but the core business of car makers like Citroën/Peugeot is to sell cars to people. They do that by designing cars according to the wishes of the majority of those wealthy enough to buy brand new cars.

Re:Compressed air.

[RockDoctor]

I guess you can re-use cylinders from the ICE for compression and expansion, which would save on weight.

The working pressure of the ICE's pistons would be in the order of 10 atmospheres - look at the ratio of headspace to the volume swept by the cylinder's travel ; about 10 to one - which is negligible on the compressed air front. Off the shelf diving equipment can go up to 300 atmospheres, 4500psi. Though you would need to have the cylinder inspected and hydraulically tested every couple of years. FTFA

PSA intends its Hybrid Air technology for B segment (82 hp gasoline engine) and C segment (110 hp gasoline engine) vehicles,

So, it's actually for quite high-powered cars? A bit annoying that.

But it does make the claimed mileage figures more impressive.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Not really. Look at the hydrogen and compressed natural gas stations on the west coast. I don't mean to be completely dismissive of your concerns, but I find them overly exaggerated.

If I was to offer a car that could get 300 miles "per charge", that was lower cost then a traditional electric/electric hybrid, the interest in he car alone would be enough for several gas stations to consider installation of h2o2 pumps. This could be even drastically increased if the marketing initially focused delivery vehicles and tax breaks were offered.

Sure, it would take time for it to permeate the landscape, but I don't see this as much different then the jump to CNG or any of the various bio fuels. Especially if the cost was less volatile then petroleum based fuels.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

Guess how hydrogen is obtained industrially these days :)
You are better off using a slightly modified of distilled version of feedstock that provides the hydrogen (oil or gas) in terms of both energy density and total energy usage. There's a lot of effort to get hydrogen in other ways to use to make things like h2o2 but it's still vastly easier to get it out of fossil fuels than any other way.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Sure they get hydrogen from fossil fuels. but it's an enclosed system and the byproducts are recaptured for other uses. I would say it would deal with the problem of releasing carbon into the atmosphere even if it did not completely ween us from oil.

Plus, with the amount of heat produced by reacting h2o2, you might get a more efficient use by including more water into the system and taking advantage of the expansion of liquid to steam.

It would be nice if an efficient process could be found that would create it through a natural process (h2+o2) and perhaps using solar or wind power to provide energy for the process. Then you could have your own fueling station in your garage.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

Sure they get hydrogen from fossil fuels. but it's an enclosed system and the byproducts are recaptured for other uses. I would say it would deal with the problem of releasing carbon into the atmosphere even if it did not completely ween us from oil.

That makes no sense, and I'm a person that has done a bit of work on various gear in chemical plants, so sorry, you lose. The energy costs are large and cannot be ignored where the entire point of a fuel is to have a handy energy source. Are you trolling, drunk, on drugs or actually don't have the merest fucking clue what you are writing about but just want to spew misleading rubbish onto the net? Are you some petty little office clerk that wants to bait some people with a technical background (or even those that attempted high school chemistry) for a few laughs?

Re:Compressed air.

[KozmoStevnNaut]

I hope you are aware that Citroen have had world-beating expertise in hydropneumatic suspension, brakes and power steering since they introduced the technology to the car market in the 1950s?

If it involves hydraulic oil and/or compressed nitrogen, they know better than anyone else what they're doing.

Re:Compressed air.

[KozmoStevnNaut]

I only know of diesel hybrid drivetrain currently on sale, coincidentally, it's built by Peugeot Citroen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_HYbrid4

It works in a different way to the Prius and other gasoline hybrids. In essence you have a normal FWD car with a diesel engine and an automatic gearbox, to which is added a RWD electric drivetrain and electronics to make things work in harmony. The idea is to use the road as a transmission between the two powertrains, while still letting you drive in pure electric mode for a short distance in town. The additional electric drivetrain means that you effectively have 4WD as well.

Re:Compressed air.

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Where do you live that a C-segment car with a ~110hp engine is high-powered? I'd place it as midrange at best.

Re:Compressed air.

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Yeah, if it's anything like their currently diesel/electric hybrid drivetrain, you can only go couple of miles on a "charge". The zero-emissions bit is a nice little bonus for short distances, but the real meat lies in the ability to recover braking energy, which is a huge deal when it comes to increasing fuel mileage and decreasing brake wear.

Re:Compressed air.

[RockDoctor]

Of the 7 cars that I've owned, all have been less than 65 bhp, and half less than 50bhp.

Then again, not one of them has weighed more than 850kg unladen, and every one has been capable of exceeding the speed limit - and the practical limit for long-distance driving.

These air-hybrid cars are for the European market, where I'm at, so describing them as high-powered is appropriate. If you need a 200bhp engine to get your SUV behemoth up to motorway cruising speed, then that's fine. feel free to bring it over here and have Fiat 500s with 55bhp engines (my "nippiest" car) run rings around it.

"Horses for courses". Elephants for other courses.

Re:Compressed air.

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Why the assumption that I live in the US?

I live in Europe, and my first two cars both had around 70hp. One was a Corolla that weighed around 800kg, the other a Nuevo Panda at around 950kg. I had lots of fun, ran rings around bigger cars in city traffic and got speeding tickets in both.

My current car is a Peugeot 406 with 160hp and it's just objectively better in every way. It's roomier, faster, quieter, much more fun to drive and a lot more comfortable to boot. I absolutely wouldn't mind if it had 200hp (which the V6 model has), but I make do with 160.

Re:Compressed air.

[Reverand Dave]

Nice try, maybe you should read the article. The air is going to keep the vehicles going except at lower speeds so it doesn't need to push a vehicle at highway speeds for short periods of time. By your same logic the energy contained in a Li-Ion battery is also a huge hazard.

Asphyxia kills you in case you didn't know you pedantic and pretentious dick, and obviously you've never worked with pure h2o2 so you wouldn't know that by itself, it will kill you as well. And yes, a large scale (several gallons) of h2o2 does require a hazmat response. Maybe you should put your preposition to a test by going and drinking some from your medicine cabinet then telling us how non toxic it is.

Maybe you should try reading up on these issues before you start pontificating idiotic bullshit.

Re:Compressed air.

[kaatochacha]

You had me up to "damn right".
Why does Slashdot always have so many cheap shots? Hell, the original comment about French and cars was one itself.
Then again, I guess that's just Slashdot. It's just that when I agree with someone, then they sneak in the annoying bit at the end, it bugs me.

Re:Compressed air.

[jonadab]

> I don't really understand why more manufacturers are not using flywheels instead, though...

That's logistically difficult within Earth's atmosphere. If you allow the flywheel chamber to have air in it, friction causes a rather major loss of potential energy (in the form of angular momentum) over time. You can get rid of air resistance by keeping the flywheel in (near) vacuum, which is what NASA does, but that would be rather annoying to maintain in a consumer product, particularly when you have to have a coupling mechanism that you use to extract energy from the flywheel, and that mechanism has to breach the chamber wall, and you want it to be as efficient as possible, but you don't want it to disrupt the vacuum.

The other thing is, to be efficient at all, the flywheel needs expensive super-low-friction bearings, which would add a nice chunk of change to the price of the vehicle. (In a household energy storage system you might be able to use a magnetic mounting, i.e., have the wheel not physically touch anything; but I can't imagine that working very well in a car, due to all the jostling and acceleration -- I mean turning and braking as well as speeding up.)

Consider also the impact the gyroscopic action of the flywheel would have on the driver's ability to steer.

Flywheel energy storage is great for satellites, but I'm not sure how well it would work in a car. My guess is, not nearly as well as in a satellite.

Re:Compressed air.

[RockDoctor]

Well, most people on Slashdot do live in the US (and assume that everyone else does too).

But concerning engine power ... it's not something that I've ever looked at proactively. When I've brought cars second-hand, the #1 consideration has been bodywork, #2 engine tone, #3 size and handling (you need the engine to get up to speed to check the brakes and suspension under load) .... then argue the price. The only time that I've been new-car shopping, the decision was in the wife's hands, with me deciding on what options to present to her.

But isn't it an absolute given that a higher-power engine will consume more fuel when it's running at that power than an equivalent lower-power engine. I tend to think in therms of torque-revs curves etc when I'm driving, and within reason I don't mind running the engine to 5000 revs to get a good acceleration kick in traffic, then letting the revs down rapidly by going up through the gears as I approach cruising speed. I.E. exactly as the manual says!

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Lol.. Way to miss the forest for the trees. Of course the energy costs are large. But not so large that it is cost prohibitive or not competitive. I can buy hydrogen at any welding gas supply store relatively cheaply.

And yes, it's an enclose system. The manufacture of hydrogen which final product would propel a car down the road does not release the same pollutants as burning fossil fuel in a car.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

I can buy hydrogen at any welding gas supply store relatively cheaply.

That really shows how little you are thinking about the issue - expecting magic men to provide for you and not considering where these things come from.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Yawn.... Go troll elsewhere. I already know where it is coming from and the only thing magic about it is your insistence on commenting about something. Pure Hydrogen is not even a large consumable in the creation of hydrogen per oxide.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

So YOU are calling me a troll after the irrelevant peroxide bullshit in an energy storage thread?
Sorry, but your helpless "just use magic to make it work" attitude is the sort of thing society doesn't even find acceptable in teenage girls anymore.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Yeah, I'm calling you a troll. There is no magic involved unless we are talking about your inability to comprehend a concept. But it's ok, I do not really care if you endorse it or not. i don't really care what you think of it because I don't think you are capable of making informed comments on the subject.

Now go troll someone else.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

No, you changed the topic from a stored energy hybrid to just another powered system and then showed you don't know shit about either - done purely for a reaction and done in ignorance so attention seeking trolling. Please just wank elsewhere instead of over these pages.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

No, I said that h2o2 would be better then compressed air and would offer ranges comparable to ICEs and you could get rid of them. You are the one who went into the entire hydrogen costs and so on that took us down some winding road. The emissions save is a given since this compressed air tech is already trying to do that. Teh h2o2 can use the same tech. There won't be much difference.

It really is that simple. If you cannot follow along, then ask questions instead of inserting moronic commands and declarations. Or go troll somewhere else.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

Not simple - reality gets in the way because the hydrogen peroxide isn't created with magic and your "solution" would need magic to be more viable than anything currently in use. Do you really desire attention so much that you are willing to present as a clueless clown? As a living blonde joke I suppose it's appropriate that you have peroxide on your brain, but sorry, your stupid posts are just not funny so you are not even very effective as a clown.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

No, I said that h2o2 would be better then compressed air and would offer ranges comparable to ICEs

Way beyond stupid on both counts thus most likely an obvious troll.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

The Neither the compressed air or the fuel moving the vehicle in the first place is created with magic. No one said anything about a miracle solution that ran on unicorn farts or anything but you. Like I've already said before, go troll elsewhere.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

No one said anything about a miracle solution that ran on unicorn farts or anything but you

Your peroxide idea would need such a thing to work - hence a troll or idiot out of their depth but still keeping their mouth open. Which are you?

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

Not any more then an air powered car or a steam engine would. Both of which are realities in this world. hence a troll or idiot out of their depth but still keeping their mouth open. Which are you?

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

No. You still show no signs of a clue about how your suggestion would actually work, thus suggesting it was nothing but bait looking for people to correct your ignorance. Go back to your accounts clerk desk and leave the teckies alone.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

All you had to do is not comment. I mean you and someone else was the only ones who did. I'm not sure what you mean by bait unless you are trying to tell me that you are so gullible that you had to comment because you think someone on the internet is wrong.

But hey, troll on. I don't care.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

Failed - no explanation so far as to how peroxide is going to be "superior" without magic. I'm still waiting for you to prove it wasn't just a troll to show up those people you are jealous of that have at least a tiny clue about high school level chemistry and physics or more.
I commented because you put down something so incredibly fucking stupid in a place where the gullible might be taken in by your petty little attempt to attack something because it dared to look like an alternative energy (even though it wasn't). Why the fuck do you idiots try to repeal reality and pretend magic exists instead the second something looks vaguely as if it's going to collide with your politics?

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

I thought you said you knew about these things. Why would I have to explain something to a know it all? The peroxide expands something like 15 to one and can boil water instantly. That has been stated already. The same size air tank that gives 20 miles could give over 200 miles. Add water to the mix which expands as it transforms to gas and you can increase the range cheaply.

You go on about being the smartest person in the room and fail to fucking comprehend what is being said. It's sad that you troll this way. I would think someone who thinks as much of themselves as you do would have something better to do. Perhaps your entire existence is an illusion.

But go ahead and keep on trolling. It doesn't bother me a bit. You can make a fool of yourself all you want. Now take a bit of time and go clean yourself up.

Re:Compressed air.

[dbIII]

Just like unicorn stew - "first you catch your unicorn" - which is just as unrealistic as your "energy saving" idea since first you have to make the hydrogen peroxide out of stuff that is far more suitable as fuel itself! Stop pretending you don't already know that.

The same size air tank that gives 20 miles could give over 200 miles

Only if you pretend the air can only be stored at very low pressure and artificially skew the results.
I really cannot see how your hydrogen peroxide steam car is going to be able to propel itself and all the heavy bits you need to run it around, let alone be "superior". Why did you think it would be taken at face value? If it's not a steam car then please describe what sort of magic is supposed to do it? Don't dare say rocket propulsion - while it's not magic we both know the suggestion is far too stupid to contemplate in a consumer passenger vehicle.

You go on about being the smartest person in the room

If the room contains only yourself and one other person it's not that difficult for that other person to win the title unless you are deliberately pretending to be be far more stupid than you are. That's the case isn't it? You are pretending to be incredibly dense to avoid having to dispute with reality and hoping some petty verbal bullying will convince people that anything resembling an alternative energy (even when it isn't) is not going to work. I'm not going to let your stupid luddite shit stink up the place without pointing it out for what it is.

Re:Compressed air.

[sumdumass]

lol.. Who said anything about saving energy? I was talking of emissions.

You are one seriously retarded troll.

You are posting: as Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: Slashdot is dying

Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered Slashdot community when recently IDC confirmed that Slashdot accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all forums. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that Slashdot has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Slashdot is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Forum Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to have a Foreskin to predict Slashdot's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Slashdot faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Slashdot because Slashdot is dying. Things are looking very bad for Slashdot. As many of us are already aware, Slashdot continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. Slashdot is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

Slashdot leader Rob Malda states that there are 7000 users of Slashdot. How many users of Reddit are there? Let's see. The number of Slashdot versus Reddit posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Reddit users. Kuro5hin posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Reddit posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of Kuro5hin. A recent article put Slashdot at about 80 percent of the forum market. Therefore there are over 9000 Slashdot users. This is consistent with the number of Slashdot Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of LinuxVA, abysmal sales and so on, Slashdot went out of business and was taken over by Dice Holdings, Inc. who sell another troubled forum. Now it is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that Slashdot has steadily declined in market share. Slashdot is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Slashdot is to survive at all it will be among forum hobbyist dabblers. Slashdot continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Slashdot is dead.

Fact: Slashdot is dead

I've had my Volt for a year

[Anonymous Coward]

And with my 20 mile commute, two destination malls with chargers, and its ~35 mile electric range I average 200 mpg-e. This puts me near the middle of the distribution for Volt owner mpg.

This makes it "just" worth the hassle of hooking up the power at each end.

Sorry Citrah-o-en, it's just not good enough yet.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[falcon5768]

a LOT of people dont have 20 mile commutes. Even on the east coast mine is 40+, and in the midwest commutes of 80+ are not unheard of for office jobs. While a lot could be said for telecommuting, there are still a vast number of companies who require their people to be in the office

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[serviscope_minor]

a LOT of people dont have 20 mile commutes.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of people do have shorter communtes than 20 miles.

A lot of people also need to haul hay in the back of their car. A nontrivial number of people need to pull a tractor trailer too.

All that means is that the market is segmented since there is no one size fits all vehicle.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[h4rr4r]

Mine is 10 miles, round trip.

A car that can go 20 miles between charges would be fine for one vehicle and we could have one gas car as well.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[Anonymous Coward]

That's kinda the point. 20 miles is not a large commute, and it's "just" worth it. So this Citroen has an even narrower scope of applicability than the Volt.

As serviscope_minor points out below, there is no "one size fits all" vehicle. But for anyone who was in the market for a Chevy Cruise and whose commute range was 40 miles or under, the saved gas of upgrading to a Volt could break even with the cost of the extra electrics. Break even. That's what you get with the technology as it stands.

The Citroen is adding considerable complexity for much less range. So it is an even narrower set of people for whom it will even break even.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[serviscope_minor]

You don't understand.

Once every 15 years you will need to haul 20 tons cross country, so you should just buy a semi for your regular commute so it's there when you need it.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[Anonymous Coward]

a LOT of people dont have 20 mile commutes. Even on the east coast mine is 40+, and in the midwest commutes of 80+ are not unheard of for office jobs. While a lot could be said for telecommuting, there are still a vast number of companies who require their people to be in the office

Move closer to your job.

What is the point of living so far from where you work? It's just more time sitting in your car, twice every day. You must really like driving your I guess.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine is between .6 and .7 miles depending on which entrance to the office's parking lot I use.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[R3d M3rcury]

The average commute distance by private vehicle as of 2009 in the United States is a little over 12 miles (12.09, PDF, page 48, table 27). So I would say that a lot of people DO have less than 20 miles commutes.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand.

Once every 15 years you will need to haul 20 tons cross country, so you should just buy a semi for your regular commute so it's there when you need it.

I see you have a graduate degree in Redneckology, with a specialization
in white trash psychology.

Re:I've had my Volt for a year

[Anonymous Coward]

OMFG 20 miles.. 80 miles.. even 10 miles. why the fuck are you guys driving so far for every day.

MOVE THE FUCK CLOSER TO WORK

and then when you do, take the train or bus, or walk (what we do even in the winter.. it's a measly 10 minute commute ON FOOT. when it gets down to -25C or so, then we drive, but it takes just as fucking long) or bike, and leave the fucking car at home.

UPS has been doing this for over 4 years.

[doug141]

Cheaper and simpler than exotic batteries, saves a ton of gas, and you don't need rare earths. http://gas2.org/2008/10/28/ups-is-first-in-delivery-industry-to-test-hydraulic-hybrids/

Re:UPS has been doing this for over 4 years.

[jfengel]

Interesting. According to this more recent article:

http://www.dailytech.com/UPS+to+Use+40+New+Hydraulic+Hybrid+Vehicles+in+Baltimore+Atlanta+/article27846.htm

it appears to have worked out well enough to expand the experiment.

Re:UPS has been doing this for over 4 years.

[future assassin]

Interesting. According to this more recent article:

it appears to have worked out well enough to expand the experiment.

That's because they scored in $$$$$$ from ripping off Canadians on handling/customs charges for packages sent from the US.

Air powered until 43 mph...

[SternisheFan]

French car company Peugeot has unveiled an air powered hybrid car, the Hybrid Air Concept, with the goal to have the car on the road by 2016. The air engine has been in development for more than two years with over 100 leading scientists and engineers working on the air powered car in top secret conditions at Peugeot’s research and development center at Velizy, south of Paris. The air engine system works by using a normal internal combustion engine, special hydraulics and an adapted gearbox along with compressed air cylinders that store and release energy. This allows the car to run on gas or air or a combination of the two. Air power would be used below 43 mph. The air compresses and decompresses as the car speeds up and slows down. Peugeot predicts the cars could be achieving an average of 73 mpg by 2020.

What this air engine does is remove the electric engine component from hybrid vehicles. This eliminates the need for a large battery, which cuts down on cost, weight, and negative environmental impact. Plus, you will not get stranded looking for a charger on some back country road. While pure compressed air cars have been tried before, this is the first application of a gas-compressed air hybrid. The system will be able to be installed on any normal Peugeot car without altering its external shape, size or trunk space if the spare is removed. From the exterior the air powered Peugeot will look identical to a conventional Peugeot. Peugeot will be introducing the air powered engine in smaller models such as the model 208 to start.

http://gas2.org/2013/01/25/the-peugeot-air-powered-hybrid-car-could-hit-streets-by-2016/

Re:Air powered until 43 mph...

[babybird]

I'm confused about getting stranded looking for a charger on a back country road with a gas/electric hybrid. I've never once needed a charger for mine and don't know of anyone else who has either.

Re:Air powered until 43 mph...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are missing the point. Back country roads are littered with industrial air compressors, and their use is free!

To offset the usual chatter on /.

[ryzvonusef]

Here is some some quick responses.

1- No, running around in car with gas full of high pressure tank is the not the end of the world, people (including yours truly) do it with CNG enabled cars.

2- As for compression/decompression energy losses, same as for CNG, you need to cool it it blah blah, and is done so on a commercial scale at every CNG station; therefore can be done.

3- CNG suffers from power problems on steep climbs, same seems to be the case for air. But for regular commute, it's perfect and economical.

4- Air car suffer from low power density (much lower than CNG), but AFAIK, a full tank can last you the usual daily commute, which ought to be enough for a small city car. (which is what it will be able to power anyway, can't carry the load of bigger cars as of yet) And you could charge at work too(regular mains-running onboard compressor apparently take 3-4 hrs), so there is that.

5- MDI realised that air alone won't be enough, so they have been developing hybrid versions themselves.

TL;DR Air could prove to be good for the usual regular commute, since fuel costs will be minimum (air is free, all it will cost is running the compression and pump, which, looking at local CNG setups, will prove to much less than petrol equivalent, if commercially done)

Here is some aircar nerd sites:

- http://www.aircars.tk/

- http://www.cyber-media.com/aircar/index.shtml

(I would take their figures with a grain of salt, but well, the video shows running prototypes, so at least there is *something*)

Re:To offset the usual chatter on /.

[imsabbel]

2- No, its NOT the same as CNG. Because the energy density of adiabatic expansion is a LOT less than the one of natural gas combustion. So a much higher loss fraction during the compression cycle AND combustion waste heat cannot be used to pre-heat the compressed gas to counter valve freezing and whatever.

Re:To offset the usual chatter on /.

[ryzvonusef]

The point was CNG has already explored these frontiers, and have developed technology to render this commercially feasible.

More specifically, I was referring to the Pump-end of the equation; CNG stations cover about the same area as normal petrol station, and have an automated setup for compression, *cooling*, storing and dispensing gas at the pump; this is *not* a new or difficult thing to do, as americans presume, and you are not to blame, you have most likely not seen CNG pumps in action, so setting up a small commercial gas setup must seem like an awkward proposal, where as it is not.

Oh of course, air would be different, but it's not *entirely* a new setup, they have CNG as a base. Also, apparently MDI already have that end figured out.

At the engine end, yes, the setup is *much* more diverse than CNG, but then again this is why MDI hasn't released a product for ten years; not because they are vapour-ware (ha!) they might as well be, but because they have gone through four different engine designs to counter this problem.

----

Basically, I (and I think I can say the same for Tata Motors) can see value in this setup for tiny daily commute cars. I think this would be feasible for Auto-Rickshaw type of setups.

Re:To offset the usual chatter on /.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmmm...could you have a hydraulic system further compress the air in the tank to provide extra boost on climbs? Or is that just silly?

Re:To offset the usual chatter on /.

[ryzvonusef]

Sorry, I am not an engineer, so I can't answer this, but as I understand, the CNG running engines don't provide enough *power* on steep climbs, so cars have to switch over to petrol for the climbing portion, then switch back to the cheaper CNG for gentler slopes. Also, AFAIK, it isn't possible to do a diesel/CNG hybrid, and Bigger cars (~2000 cc plus engines) usually don't benefit from CNG.

Gas stations will have to start charging...

[SlovakWakko]

...for tire inflation, otherwise they'll go out of business, and the queues to "just infllate the tires" will kill us all :)

Re:Gas stations will have to start charging...

[mattack2]

Around here, gas stations have charged for tire inflation for a long time.

If you fill up your tank, you either get a token or they turn on the compressor for you. Otherwise you pay a quarter or whatever at the air/water machines. (I've never paid, and have never noticed anybody else paying.)

Re:Gas stations will have to start charging...

[clonehappy]

A quarter? As someone with a slow leak in an alloy wheel, I wish it was still a quarter.

Around Chicago it costs $1.00, and the air machines take credit cards. Wish I would have thought of that one...

Re:Gas stations will have to start charging...

[mattack2]

Wow, ok, maybe I'm wrong.. I just knew they took quarters/tokens.

Re:Gas stations will have to start charging...

[tftp]

I have a small 12V compressor. Bought it a decade ago, and it is still as good as new. The price was $30 or $40, I don't remember. If you need compressed air often then it would be a good investment.

Pneumatics

[ThatsNotPudding]

Pressurized hydraulic fluid can be dangerous (especially oil-injection via pinhole leaks that can result in amputation or death depending on the target area), but in the unfortunate instance of a pressurized vessel failing, as the fluid is essentially uncompressible, the motive force quickly stops.

Compressed gas, on the other hand... far scarier results with a ruptured vessel as the rapidly expanding gas is more than happy to forcefully hurl projectiles out of its way.

Early prototype

[slew]

Found this picture of an early prototype on the web manufactured way back in 1985 ;^)

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_49434-Citroen-DS-21-1972.html

I takes a "real genius" to come up with revolutionary technology like this...

T5 ftw

[Korruptionen]

Whatever... Volvo for life!! :D

I already have this

[barakn]

In my car it's called Turbo, and the compressed gas from the Turbo is mixed violently with diesel moments before being compressed into a conflagration.

What about lost energy?

[EmagGeek]

What happens to the heat generated by compressing the air in the first place? Is that energy loss considered in the "mileage" calculation for this car?

Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[g8oz]

The compressed air designation is very misleading. This is a hydraulic hybrid, using a hydraulic pump/motor the same way a normal hybrid uses a battery - for acceleration and storing braking energy.

Hydraulic hybrid vehicle (HHV) technology has been slowly maturing and is very promising. It is already in use for some advanced heavy trucks. Garbage trucks in particular, with their stop and go usage profile benefit from their efficiencies.
UPS is trying some out. Manufacturers like Navistar and Eaton are on board

In the U.S the EPA has been at the forefront of the research. See their page about it: Hydraulic Hybrid Research

In 2011 the EPA announced a partnership with Chrysler to produce an HHV minivan that would give you a 60% improvement in city driving fuel economy.

Hybrid Batteries are expensive and can't handle the braking energy a truck generates. Hydraulic technology is cheap, well understood, and gives you more bang for your buck.

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[WoOS]

No "compressed air" is not misleading as that seems to be exactly what is used for storage. From the PSA page about it (who should know intending to produce it):

--- snip ---
What is it exactly?

A new type of full hybrid powertrain that uses petrol and compressed air:
        - An innovative combination of tried and tested technologies: a petrol engine, a unit to store energy in the form of compressed air, a hydraulic motor-pump assembly and an automatic transmission working with an epicyclic gear train.
--- snip ---

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[jcdr]

The English article don't show the details. Here is a French article with more details:
http://automobile.challenges.fr/dossiers/20130123.LQA4031/psa-hybrid-air-des-hybrides-peugeot-et-citroen-a-air-comprime.html
It say that there is two nitrogen tanks, a high pressure one and a low pressure one. A hydraulic fluid (not specified) is used to compress the nitrogen of the high pressure tank. There is no description about the utility of the low pressure tank. There say that the gear boy is actually of the same type of the one used by Toyota in there hybrid cars.

There emphasis the fact that this nitrogen compression can sustain a far higher input energy from the car deceleration compared to the energy that a electric generator can accept. But the total amount of energy stored is 20 less compared to the battery of the Toyota Yaris Hybrid. There say that this amount of energy is not enough to move more than about 100m, but that it can move a lot of power compared to the electric hybrid system.

Look like the goal is to store a lot of energy from deceleration to be able to reuse it for the next acceleration, witch sound good in very urban traffic. I will not be surprised if someone will try in the future to use springs to archive the same goal, like do a lot of toy cars.

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[istartedi]

I will not be surprised if someone will try in the future to use springs to archive the same goal,

I doubt springs, but F1 cars already use flywheels. They do a lot of braking and accelerating in F1.

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[CrimsonAvenger]

Okay, I have to ask:

What is your native language?

Your grammar coupled with the spelling make it pretty clear that it's not English, but I cannot find any obvious pattern pointing to any particular language with which I'm familiar.

Of course, if your native language IS English, consider this to be my way of poking fun at your illiteracy....;-)

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[jcdr]

Really sorry for my English. You are right it's not my native language.
My native language is French.

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

Another French fag reporting in,

This system look as a common hydro-pneumatic accumulator, it really unlikely that they use air for it or for the compressor and pump.

The low pressure tank store the hydraulic fluid "some oil" at near atmospheric pressure. During the breaking phase the hydraulic pump is geared up and pump the fluid in the hight pressure tank. The hight pressure tank had a pressurized nitrogen balloon in its inside. It made of a mixture of Kevlar and rubber.
The hydraulic fluid compress the balloon and the nitrogen inside ans store the energy.
When the hydraulic motor is geared up, the hydraulic fluid flow back from the hight pressure tank to the low pressure tank.

That explain some design choices:
1. two moving part hydraulic module, a pump and a motor. Reversible machine exist but unlike electric motor/generator they have a terrible efficiency.
2. Working with oil or any liquid is way easier than compressed air for this kind of application, it nearly impossible to have a leak proof gas volumetric motor (+vibration, thermic gradient, etc)
3. You remove all the water condensation, air/water separation, filtration, corrosion etc by working in a close cycle with nitrogen.
4. Most country have regulation on pressurized vessel, it's a bit complicated and i don't feel in the mood to explain it in detail, but hight pressure gas vessel = risk + heavy regulation, hydraulic fluid in a hight pressure vessel = low risk, a mix of gas and fluid = lighter regulation + easier to design the safety mechanism (safety valve on the nitrogen balloon)
5. This technology is already in use in many industrial process, proved and hardened.

Source, I work with those guy (french and german website): http://www.hydac.com/de-fr/produits/accumulateurs-hydropneumatiques/accumulateurs-a-vessie/accu-a-vessie-standardhaute-pression.html

Now some number and approximation:
The hight pressure vessel look at less 200L volume.
at 100 bar = 0.5Kw/h
at 200 bar = 1.1Kw/h
at 300 bar = 1.6Kw/h
at 1000 bar (possible but unlikely) = 5.5Kw/h

A 1Kw/h lithium battery is around 12Kg.

So it look less effective than a lithium battery, but it's cheap. It look like a sensible chose for a small city car, that need to be relatively inexpensive and that's not possible with lithium battery.

Re:Its a HYDRAULIC Hybrid

[jcdr]

Thanks for all the details.

Another key part of the system is the epicycloid gear. On a Prius for example, this gear allow the computer to adjust the energies flows with precision because all is controlled by two electric motors. I wonder how Peugeot Citroen system can archive the same. Possibly by controlling electrovalves on the hydraulic pump and hydraulic motor circuit.

Good for Buses and Delivery Trucks

[PineHall]

Lightning Hybrids is a small company in Colorado that makes hydraulic hybrid systems. They started out by wanting to make passenger cars, but soon realized they needed to focus on vehicles that do a lot of stopping and going, like buses and delivery trucks. That seems to be working for them. At least that is how I see and remember it. Passenger cars are not ideal. Vehicles that stop and go a lot are a better target.

DS5

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

Nothing better than some examples, like the DS5 Diesel electric hybrid with interesting styling.

dodge dart

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried one of those new dodge darts. I'm a 6' 200lb man. fairly standard sized. I could not get in and out of that car without hitting my head on the roof. sitting in the seat, with the seat fully down, i was staring at the sunvisor. Its a piece of crap, designed by midgets.

Chrystler and UPS are ahead of the French

[genericmk]

Has Slashdot forgotten it has reported on Chrystler two years and a day ago? http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/01/25/0019220/how-chryslers-battery-less-hybrid-minivan-works The Chrysler minivan compressed air hybrid is supposed to be arriving this year in the US: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1053892_sergio-marchionne-hybrid-minivan-will-join-chrysler-300-hybrid-in-2013 And UPS has been running this for a while now (they started testing the vehicles 5 years ago!); it makes a lot of sense for heavy trucks. http://gas2.org/2008/10/28/ups-is-first-in-delivery-industry-to-test-hydraulic-hybrids/

Ultracaps

[fyngyrz]

I'm waiting for ultracap overlords. Even hybrid ones.

All-electric car, enough UC capacity to run you around for, say, 15 minutes, and an IC engine that can charge the thing on board. No wasted idling energy (unless you spend it on AC or heat, etc., in which case it isn't wasted), all the great benefits of 4wd, regen, huge torque at any speed...

Of course, if you had a higher efficiency source of power (like nuclear... of course I'm dreaming now), that'd be super, but for now, gas/diesel is it.

Re:Ultracaps

[dbIII]

higher efficiency source of power (like nuclear... of course I'm dreaming now)

Yes you are dreaming - higher energy density and not efficiency, because you get a choice of steam power, thermocouples or photovoltaics to be run by that radioactive decay.
Still waiting on Mr Fusion (which won't be coming out of the USA after the ignition research got axed) and that hoverboard.

Re:Ultracaps

[Immerman]

Sure, ultracaps would be nice, but will likely be very expensive at least initially. Compressed air on the other hand can serve much the same purpose far more cheaply using well established technology. It doesn't really matter that much whether the energy is stored as electric potential to drive electric motors, or compressed air to drive compressed air motors. In either case your combustion engine (or other mechanical energy source) can recharge the power buffer while operating at optimal efficiency while allowing the buffer to deliver and recover energy at the wheels. Of course that's a series hybrid design, whereas the Citroen will be another parallel hybrid design.

You are all missing the point

[dbIII]

This is an energy recovery system and not a fuel source. It's comparable to using the energy recovered from braking to drive a flywheel and using that flywheel later to kick off from a dead stop and burn less fuel. If that doesn't make enough sense I'm sure you can google an explanation of that somewhere since it's been used a bit more than a similar outcome from compressed air (which takes up less space than a large flywheel).

peace

[Anonymous Coward]

Pay loans are helpful if you find yourself in a position where you need money right away. Even though payday cash advances are useful, if you don't know enough about them, they could put you in a bad situation. The advice given here will help you avoid the biggest problems when it comes to payday advances.peace

so we have a loser car

[Anonymous Coward]

that translates to "lemon" taking a flyer? can we count on it to be under powered, like the rest of the product line?

its not an air powered car ...

[northernpaddler]

it's a hydraulic hybrid. hydraulic fluid over nitrogen in accumulators. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/01/psabosch-20130122.html Parker Hannifin has these already on the road in refuse trucks where they achieve a 45% improvement in fuel consumption the sources should be ashamed

And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

You are seriously suggesting hydrogen peroxide as a way to reduce air pollution? It looks like you are making it very easy to find a "smarter person" to share a room with you.
You may want to look up a MSDS, and you may also want to look at earlier engines that used hydrogen peroxide if you want a bit of a clue that it's a bit harder than you appear to assume to run anything smaller than a submarine on the stuff unless it's something disposable (rocket etc).

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

lol.. And you think you have. Listen troll, the msds for h2o2 is not much different then for gasoline as the concentration that would be neccesary, and the previous engine attempts didn't have the advantage of modern materials or attempt to use an air motor of this design.

It's like you are saying Ford should have never used a diesel engine because when Freight-liner did, it polluted more then gas.

Yes, with you in the room, it is easy for dumbasses to feel a lot smarter then they are.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

So when you lose a petty contest of wits you call the other person retarded? Where does you put you then?
Now you are pretending that hydrogen peroxide is safer than petrol by pretending you've read something you haven't - a quick and easy to read one page item that was easily available on the net before there was even a world wide web! This is what you get when blind ideology creeps into a discussion about things that are real - just repeal reality says sumdumass and reverse the order of things.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

previous engine attempts didn't have the advantage of modern materials

I've got a background in materials science (even taught some of it) from before I was an engineer and I think that is bullshit unless you've got some new advance to back that up with - but of course you don't.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

Look retard, you started with the names long before I did. So try to troll a little better next time.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

Another lie - asking if you are trolling (which you obviously were with your silly counterproductive bullshit) is not calling names. Are you going to put up or shut up? Your handwaving about "better materials" is useless since we both know that's not the constraint here if you are doing more than pretending to have a clue. I don;t know how many times I've asked about how this peroxide system is going to be superior as you suggest, but you've given me nothing that lies within the bounds of reality.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

lol.. go back further then that troll.

trol.troll trol troll.....

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

How about putting up something to make your case to show that you are not merely trying to lead the young and gullible astray with lies instead of such juvenile behaviour?

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

Troll troll troll..lol trollol

http://goo.gl/W1bx

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

What's the point of you calling me the name the applies to yourself? We both know you were lying to mislead and get attention and thus who the "troll" is. Nobody else cares so you have no audience to play to so nobody to mislead with your lies by this point.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

And you keep on showing up. I've invited you to troll elsewhere many times. But you are like an annoying burger that you can't quite reach with your finger and blowing your nose is no help.

I posted the most inane idiotic reply I could to get you to move on, and here you are again. You are the troll, not me. But if it makes you feel better, then I'm trolling you too. So pack your butt hurt ass up, stop crying and clean yourself up and move along.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

Don't worry, your continued exhibition of character flaws in the face of being asked a reasonable question gives me a convenient link to post next time you decide to deliberately mislead people here.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

lol.. troll, I was done talking to you about anything constructive a long time ago. Go troll elsewhere.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[dbIII]

I was done talking to you about anything constructive a long time

That is my entire point, and thus why I consider you are calling me a name that fits yourself neatly.

Re:And you call me retarded after that :)

[sumdumass]

And yet you won't move on. Are you sweet on me or something?