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What To Do When an Advised BIOS Upgrade Is Bad?
Bomarc writes "Twice now I've been advised to 'flash the BIOS to the latest,' once by a (major) hard drive controller maker (RAID); once by an OEM (who listed the update as 'critical,' and has removed older versions of the BIOS). Both times, the update has bricked an expensive piece of equipment. Both times, the response after the failed flash was 'It's not our problem, it's out of warranty.' Given that they recommended / advised that the unit be upgraded, shouldn't they shoulder the responsibility of BIOS upgrade failure? Also, if their design had sockets rather than soldering on parts, one could R/R the faulty part (BIOS chip), rather than going to eBay and praying. Am I the only one that has experienced this type of problem? Have you been advised to upgrade a BIOS (firmware); and the upgrade bricked the part or system? If so, what did you do? Should I name the companies?"
You should name the companies.
Upgrade-Switch
I have this issue, too. But this is with Fedora 18 software (yeah, but it's the same idea).
It's like whack-a-mole, the update fixes one thing, but breaks several others. I'd say, unless there's
a real reason to upgrade, especially on legacy equipment, don't.
I was on the phone with Cisco help desk regarding a problem with my wireless router. They told me to upgrade my BIOS. As they (2 help desk people) were on the line I flashed the BIOS. The BIOS failed and bricked the router. They told me to call another Cisco number and the person there refused to replace the unit. It took me a long time to forgive Cisco on that one.
I found updating a motherboard's BIOS from Windows is as safe as Russian roulette. I found most motherboards have a SPI bus connector. You can make a parallel port to SPI adapter and save a bad flash.
is what the legal status of their "recommendations" is and whether you ought to sue them.
The tried-and-true andwer to that is: Ask a lawyer. I'm quite sure it can and does swing either way depending on local laws and any number of details you haven't provided.
http://whatif.xkcd.com/16/
Name the products, which will of course also tell us the companies. However, it is very hard to evaluate this in general terms. A flash operation can always go wrong. If the updated code expliclitly recommended by the vendor was in fact incompatible, then I think they are at fault to some extent even for out-of-warranty hardware. But that's the only case.
I never made a brick by flashing the BIOS but I never solved a problem that way either. It was always a malfunctioning chip on the board that the BIOS can't solve.
Don't buy hardware that can be bricked by flashing the BIOS. In this modern day and age there's just no reason for it, especially not for a price anyone would call "expensive".
Dual BIOS setups are ideal, but the ability to backup the current BIOS in case it needs to be rolled back is a must reguardless.
My
I generally exercise some degree of distrust towards computer manufacturer recommendations when my product is no longer under warranty and their legal team likely has them relatively well protected against your situation, but I'd definitely name names. Send a note to the Consumerist, find a few execs and contact them directly. It may be legal, but it's a dishonest approach for those companies to take. It doesn't cost you much time and energy to bring unwanted attention to the companies and that attention is sometimes enough to suddenly get your components replaced. It won't cause systematic change, but at least you're better off.
Not one to miss an opportunity for a car analogy: if a critical recall fix bricked your ride, I think most everyone would agree it is the manufacturer's responsibility to make things right even if the vehicle is out of warranty. Of course, there's obviously more regulation involved and a more direct correlation to physical safety in the case of cars (i.e., you are putting yourself at risk of bodily harm if you choose to disregard the recall fix).
It's been almost 4 years since I built my last box. I'm planning on building another desktop this summer and would like to know who to avoid as I'm intending to purchase a motherboot that's supported by coreboot so I don't have to deal with UEFI. If there's a motherboard vendor doing evil stuff and they're listed I would like to avoid them if I can. Here's the link for supported motherboards: http://www.coreboot.org/Supported_Motherboards
I can't say hundreds, but yeah, I've flashed a bunch of stuff without bricking. Most of it was Apple kit, though.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
If it is working, then an "upgrade" cannot make it better. It can only be the same or worse.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
It's you. I've flashed firmwares of hundreds of devices - motherboards, phones, video cards, embedded systems, routers, etc, and I have never once had one of them brick.
That's not a fair statement, because the specific devices and firmware versions have not yet been stated, so your statement is completely based on an assumption based solely on your experiences, which may nor may not have any relevance to this hardware in question. Thus what you're doing is known as "blaming the victim".
Why are you flashing these devices?
The only "critical" firmware upgrade is one which will - or at least has a fighting chance of - fixing an issue you are actively experiencing.
That's great. It's never happened to you. You're one of the lucky ones. There are plenty of us who that has happened to, though, so kindly STFU unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add to the conversation.
... and solder a socket in?
I have. It happens. It wasn't a true brick as I was able to pull out some incompatable hardware (with the new bios rev) and get it to boot, but I couldn't downgrade either, so I was stuck without that piece of hardware until it got fixed. If I had been your average user, however, and did not dare open the case, it would have been effectively bricked. Then again, your average user never upgrades their bios.
Whenever I had to upgrade a BIOS or firmware, it was usually on a brand new system or only a few months later for some recent issue. When equipement is out of warranty, you need to take that into account. What was important enough that required you to upgrade the BIOS?
As a technician working on site for various clients, I would warn the clients of potential problems every single time. If I had to update a motherboard BIOS to fix a problem, I would tell them that if the update fail, the system woouldn't boot and this could delay their operation. If the motherboard wasn't under warranty anymore, I would tell them that they would need to replace it. If the system was too old, I would suggest that they forget the risky procedure and consider buying a new server. It's all relative to the client and the problem, but you need to cover your base so that they are the one making the decision and taking responsibility for it.
Since you listed the update as "critical", you need to balance the pros and cons of doing this type of update. While updating the OS is a requirement against vulnerabilities, updating a BIOS isn't like that(most of the time). Sometime, you just need to tell the boss, "listen, if we don't update the firmware, it's possible that we'll get that bug that will destroy our data, and if we update the firmware, it's possible that we'll get some other problem, I suggest "this" and "this" but you need to be aware of the risks."
I think it's best if the original author would please name the particular products.
Bios updates are often important, Many company's I've worked with say your on your own if the flash goes wrong. If its a socketed BIOS chip and the flash went wrong you could ask them to send you the new bios on a rom chip, it will cost you some money but its better than binning the device.
If the Bios chip is soldered in place that makes it much harder, I've found more inexpensive hardware uses soldered bios chips. Rather than fighting against them your best bet is probably to ask them what they suggest, you will get more help by being nice and firm, than being miserable and demanding.
The other thing you have to look at is why did the bios update fail in the first place?
If you hardware is out of warranty and you have preformed maintenance on them that causes the device to become non functional, your on the hook for that in most cases.
The last thing you could do is look around and see if you can find someone that does chip level repairs, they normally have the equipment to properly pull the chip and reflash it using something like a prom burner
You should flash new stuff out of the box as they can be quite behind.
A Crucial consumer SSD (yeah I know, not a CPU) stopped, instantaneously.
Answer from Crucial: "Update Firmware". Updating involved the consumer understanding how to use cryptic commands in various states of the pre-boot process on a 2nd machine running Windows with wording no consumer would have ever likely understood and then used in a command line.
Companies who sell things like this without having adequate software and instructions do not DESERVE TO BE SUPPORTED by consumers.
I have never had a problem since switching to using only Intel boards with Intel bios. The upgrade process usually goes quite well (I've probably flashed 100 or so Intel boards over the past 3 or 4 years) and if there is ever a problem, it automatically rolls the changes back. Out of that 100 or so bios flashes, 0 have been bricked. That being said, when it comes to consumer grade boards, especially when they're out of warranty, I just assume I'm on my own and if something like that happens, its off to EBay or Craigslist.
If it's not broke, then don't fix it! And if you ever do try and fix the unbroken, then don't do it with any utility that updates the BIOS from within Windows!
What kind of support plan did you have in place on the devices in question?
You say they were "out of warranty," so I'm guessing these were not covered under any support or warranty plan, and that the manufacturers had no incentive or legal responsibility to actually fix your issue rather than giving standardized answers like "Reboot" and "Update the firmware."
If these are business-critical devices, I would suggest getting such a support plan, or, if it's cheaper, buying a second device as a standby unit and not upgrading both at once.
If these were personal devices, then (unless your jurisdiction has some kind of special consumer protection law...check!) I'd say you just learned a valuable lesson. Go flame the devices in online reviews, cross the manufacturers off your list, and better luck next time.
Thus what you're doing is known as "blaming the victim"
I guess the question is, "so what"? Sometimes the victim of something is to blame.
I once had to move (hot swap) a socketed BIOS chip to a other board that also had a socketed BIOS to re flash after it failed and it worked when I put it back in to the first board.
Does the card / board have an bios recovery mode? I did that a few times on laptops that where not booting and was able to fix most of them.
It's you. I've flashed firmwares of hundreds of devices - motherboards, phones, video cards, embedded systems, routers, etc, and I have never once had one of them brick.
That's not a fair statement, because the specific devices and firmware versions have not yet been stated, so your statement is completely based on an assumption based solely on your experiences, which may nor may not have any relevance to this hardware in question. Thus what you're doing is known as "blaming the victim".
It's only victim blaming if he's actually been victimized. With the evidence we have, it's just as likely that he's not a victim and is instead just doing it wrong; in which case it's perfectly fine to blame him.
You'll say that we should assume his innocence until proven otherwise, and I'll counter that we should assume the innocence of the company that suggested firmware upgrade--there's a much better chance they know what they're doing better than the subby.
I'm glad that every one of your flash updates has worked. I've performed MANY upgrades successfully. I follow the directions, make sure the power is good, etc. Success not the question here, but - what happens when one is advised of an upgrade (not just a casual ... look it's late) and the upgrade fails?
Name and shame away!! I want to know which companies to avoid in that respect!
Remember kids: What's right isn't as important as what's profitable.
Sockets are expensive and would add considerably to the height of the component. Everything is surface mount now.
If it is out of warranty, then of course you're the one at fault. Since it's out of warranty, it's on you to see what the firmware does and make the decision on whether or not to flash. Either way it's all on you to deal with the consequences.
You nearly always have the option of purchasing extended warranties for "critical" equipment. If it is really that critical, why didn't you replace it at the end of its warranty period?
I have a 1996 car. Sometimes things break or I want to alter something which requires modifications. Often, I turn to the service manual. If, while following the directions in it, something goes horrible wrong, I wouldn't even consider holding the manufacturer of the car responsible. That's what you should do too: deal with it. Take your loss, don't use outdated equipment or have it serviced/modified/upgraded by professionals that have insurance that covers these kinds of risks, which happens to be the single most important thing that makes professionals professionals.
0x or or snor perron?!
Is the first thing you really should; always try for everything. Except maybe flashing firmware if you have no way to unbrick a faulty flash (but it is still what you will probably have to do to fix anything major).
Them telling you this is not them making a mistake, and they cannot guarantee how old out of warranty hardware will react to anything.
Why were you inquiring about problems in the first place? Maybe in both instances your expensive hardware was already broken and was bricked not because the advise was bad or the firmware was bad, but because the hardware was already malfunctioning.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I have a Lenovo Thinkpad T500 brick that I made this way three months ago. I was running into a few weird Windows problems--everything was fine on Linux--and "upgrade the BIOS" was a stock troubleshooting suggestion. After a decade of happy Thinkpad ownership I didn't think this was risky. On the first reboot the update did something to fry the TPM chip. It worked fine before, never again afterward. Boots hung for about 10 minutes as the BIOS tried to talk to it, I stopped that only by disabling it there. And then the next week the computer stopped POST altogether. The laptop had been running fine for 3 years at that point. I've seen a few similar reports at the Lenovo forums; it's not just me. The only people who resolved this were still under warranty, the rest of us haven't considered it cost effective to pay for a fix.
I tried to jump two major point releases at once here, from 1.20 to 3.24. My guess is that QA wasn't done on this much of a jump at once. Maybe 1.X->2.X->3.X or some other two step sequence would have worked. The Thinkpads have been disappointing is several ways recently, so I can't really say this surprised me.
Check your countries relevant consumer law. This would be covered by the Sale of Goods Act 1979 in the UK and similar law in most of Europe for up to 5 years after purchase. I'm unfamiliar with US law, do you have something similar?
No, actually, the people who have issues with BIOS/firmware updates are in the vast minority. Updates don't remain on a support site for long if the update itself has an issue. The vast majority of "bricks" caused by firmware flashing are either the fault of the person doing it, or the hardware already had a failure somewhere that was exacerbated by the flash.
Considering that IT departments flash hundreds/thousands of systems regularly, the handful of gripes you see on forums are just that - a handful.
I have some Thinkpads around here and it seems there's a firmware update every few months. But if you read the 'what's new' it's usually something stupid like "Old version updated to support new model xxxxxx" which I don't even have. Or worse "Corrected typo in BIOS menu."
Before I flash anything I'd like to know why and under what scenario, if any, it's necessary.
If the bios update isn't security related and you aren't experiencing the described issue or condition I would likely avoid doing the upgrade entirely.
Why open yourself up to the risk?
FFS, is this a court room?
A Witch Hunt for what you perceive as the inept?
You are missing the element of every business model.
Retaining customer loyalty and their positive recommendation based on experience.
Until all avenues for solutions, from said company (or alternative company solutions: IE replaceable Bios chips etc...) are exhausted, only then can the blame squarely and fairly fall on the user.
If, it was user error, it still does not resolve the issues/choices at hand, by you spinning the communique to simply blame and shame them for what you see as two side to every story.
Captain obvious much?
Focus on solutions, then you'll have a valid point.
Anything less is just you acting like a jackass with nothing of value to add.
If the only two times the "victim" flashed a bios he bricked a device I suspect a loose nut behind the keyboard.
Assuming this is server hardware.
1: Vendor should have a documented recovery procedure. If they do not have one, I do not buy in the first place. If that's part of a service contract, I make sure to include that in the cost for the accountants and if they balk, offer to do without it and quote them per-incident support. When shazbot hit the fan, if they don't want to pay the per-incident support price, their heads hang, not yours. If they don't respond and walk away, it's still their fault.
2: I make sure we really do need the update. If its a new patch, I apply it, and the vendor says that equipment is end of life thus not supported, call bullshit and tell them you'll file a claim with the states attorney general.
3: It's 110% possible to have bad flash memory and not know it until afterwards. Considering the quality of most BIOS update utilities, I'd be very wary updating without a recovery procedure and make absolutely damnably sure you're doing it at a good time and have a backup plan if it fails.
NAME AND SHAME.
Contribution: MSI Z68MA-ED55. Firmware update to support Ivy Bridge processors. Bricked it solid, and this turned out to be officially An Issue with the entire model.
It was still well within warranty, and it got fixed, but now I wonder whether I was a fool to simply pay one-way shipping for it, and at this point I'm soured on the brand.
That is not at all the case. BIOS/firmware/driver updates/upgrades can potentially do four things for a working system:
1) Add new features. Many products get new features as their life goes on. My desktop board, an Intel, has gotten a number of new BIOS features during its life. When you update the code that runs something, no surprise that code can add features.
2) Improve performance. Sometimes, a faster/more efficient way of doing something is discovered. It takes an update to make that happen. I remember a big one back in the day with 3com switches. A firmware update provided a major improvement in through put and CPU usage.
3) Fix a bug that you haven't hit yet, but could. This is why you'll see updates tagged as urgent. Just because you never hit a bug that got discovered, doesn't mean the bug isn't there. So you want to get it fixed, BEFORE you hit it. There have been firmware updates that fixed some nasty ones, like data corruption with SSDs. Some people never got hit, but that doesn't mean the update wasn't a good idea.
4) Security issues. Same deal as with the bugs, just a different kind of bug. If a security issue is discovered, it'll take a patch to fix it and the system will be working before the patch.
The "Don't fix it if it ain't broke," really is not a valid ideology for systems administration.
Many devices with a BIOS provide a way to do this. If the OEMs don't support such a scenario, then geez, shame on them.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Are you the only one stupid enough to change a working system due to a warning about some severe edge case that won't ever happen in your server? Probably not, but you're the only one who still has a job. Be glad for that.
Yeah, that's fair. But these devices aren't out of the box, they're out of warranty.
the basic issue is this... the vendors are pretending to support their slop, but don't. so let us all know who to avoid.
and you're right, BIOS should be removeable. alternatively, there should be an external-force component so even if the BIOS goes to Mars one-way, the flash can be reloaded through some sort of tool... say, a USB dongle... that could be standardized and put on the pegboard for $20.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Would you expect them to replace something that's out of warranty? Read their warranty terms, it probably says that once the warranty ends, under all circumstances so does their obligation to you. That's why manufacturers sell extended warranties/maintenance plans.
If you were out of warranty and you called the company you just cost them money. So the fact they provided any advise is great without charging you money. I mean would you expect to walk into best buy ask the geek squad to listen what is wrong with your system and them provide you a possible solution on how they would fix it without payment?
If the device isn't under warranty, why are you listening to their advice in the first place? You upgrade firmware at the manufacturers' instructions BECAUSE you need them to provide warranty support, not just for the hell of it. I'm not even sure why THEY would be willing to spend their time talking to YOU if your systems are no longer under warranty.
Only if you can PROVE that the new firmware was massively faulty. There are tons of variables involved in upgrading the firmware of an advanced system, and they can't anticipate all scenarios, or have the ability to know how well your equipment was maintained before you upgraded.
It could be that YOU didn't bother to read the release notes that have critical instructions about clearing some values before performing the firmware upgrade. It could be that your hardware was about to fail, and the firmware upgrade caused the first reboot in months or years. Or maybe the flash had stuck bits, and the firmware change had to write there, and just exposed the faulty hardware as a MORE visible problem. You were upgrading because of OTHER problems, right? How do you know the problem wasn't the hardware becoming faulty?
YOU bought the systems, as designed. You can't claim you were forced to buy a poorly designed system, or were forced to continue using it after the manufacturer would no longer extend the warranty on the device. Next time go find a system that has these components in sockets, and don't complain to us that it's more expensive, or isn't exactly what you wanted.
When dealing with hundreds or thousands of systems, any firmware upgrade is guaranteed to have issues on at least a few systems. So yes, I've seen lots of firmware upgrade issues, and dealt with them. But no, I've certainly never seen a firmware upgrade from equipment manufacturers that bricked ALL the devices we've appled them to.
Bricked systems are nearly a thing of the past. Decent motherboard manufacturers include dual BIOSes, or at least a minimal BIOS that'll allow re-flashing when a BIOS is corrupted.
Most of the time, there's some OEM command to restart the device, or load defaults, that gets your hardware back into a usable state. Sometimes the local system communications is hosed, but the network (web, IPMI) interface is still up, and allows firmware upgrades or other controls from the network. On occasion, a very, very small percentage of (old) equipment won't survive an update, even after trying everthing you've got. Then, you just have to write it off as any other hardware failure, because that's what it is.
For the most part, important systems are under warranty, and the OEM will replace faulty parts next day. If their firmware updates were breaking devices left and right, they'd be out one hell of a lot of money.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
There is a degree of truth in what you're saying. He does shoulder responsibility here.
On the other hand, what the vendors have done is childish, at best. They have suggested he do something to the hardware, they participated (wrote the update), and when the metaphorical window broke, they ran like miscreants. Their mothers should really give them a firm talking to and send them to apologize.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
The failure rate on many computer related things floats at some fraction of a percent. If you've only done a few hundred of them, it wouldn't surprise me that you haven't seen a BIOS failure. It's not that unlikely from a statistics standpoint, just like two bad updates in a row is unlikely--but it's surely happening to some unlucky soul.
I got a shipment of 500 motherboards once that turned out to need an update before they could be deployed, to add support for the CPUs purchased. A bit under 1% of those BIOS updates didn't work out and the boards had to be RMAd. It was less of a problem than ones that were DOA though, where the system wouldn't even boot far enough to do the update. (These were Asus board in 2003, and I dream of DOA rates this low now)
Yes, you should name the companies.
No, there's nothing else you can do about it.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Why is this so damn hard for computer nerds to understand. Sounds like you had two working pieces of equipment and just HAD to fuck with it.
They really don't, unless the Internet can use it to put together a list of companies that actually take engineering seriously, and have a bulletproof firmware update procedure.
I've shipped dozens of devices to production that might need reflashing in the field. It's easy to create a reflash procedure that works reliably (meaning half a dozen times on one configuration) on the engineer's desk, and reliably (meaning several dozen times on several devices) in QA. It's very difficult to create a reflash procedure that works reliably on a million units in the field, in a million different configurations, in a million different locations. Especially when the product was built with barely sufficient FLASH for the normal runtime image, much less a duplicate image to revert to.
It's similar to coding - for anyone who's done any significant amounts of production 'C' code, you quickly realize that error handling ends up being three or four times as much code as the mainline code that solves the problem you're trying to solve. Now, try to handle an error after you've erased your runtime image in Flash. It's not easy.
Companies that don't spend the engineering effort to get this right end up with many bricks in the field. Companies that do spend the engineering time to get it right still end up with a few - it's kind of unavoidable in the current state of the art.
And the worms ate into his brain.
Perhaps there is a way to re-flash it back to the older firmware?
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
For your server grade stuff, sure.
But consider, at my work a standard desktop is under $400. We buy them by the thousand, so we get decent machines at cheap prices.
Let's just consider the flash chip. At $400/machine, you'd need a failure rate in excess of .25% to make putting that component in a socket be worth it. That's before figuring that if it takes $100 in labor to diagnose and repair, if it happens in year 4-5 it might not be worth it at all.
While I've flashed stuff at both home and work; I have to say I've done it far more often at home. At work stability is king, we don't really change components in the desktops, so no compatibility issues to crop up, thus no need to flash.
I don't read AC A human right
Logic would dictate that if the piece is no longer functioning as desired you flash anyways as replacement is inevitable.
In other words, stop being a whingey bitch, recognise the inevitable, make informed decisions, and accept responsibility for them.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Have you tried resetting your bios? This works when a system bios update bricks your machine.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reset%20cmos&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDoQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPdp_L5IxaNI&ei=ZvkXUfqnLK-10QHC8YDoCw&usg=AFQjCNEt2ZbZPdVVpwir-fZxV_94mG3Azg&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ
Restore the backup. IBM and Asus ask you to save a copy of the previous BIOS before the upgrade and they also provide a restore utility.
You should flash new stuff out of the box as they can be quite behind.
Not applicable here, he said it was an out of warranty system. Pretty far from "new stuff out of the box."
Perhaps there is a way to re-flash it back to the older firmware?
Unfortunately - no. The system will not (complete) the post to get to the level of ability to flash. ALSO, Dell does not have previous version(s) available. (Note: I've already ordered ANOTHER replacement motherboard)
Just happened to me Upgrading my AsRock motherboard UEFI firmware stalled at "Processing Crashless..." How ironic is that Anyway a phone call to AsrockAmerica, they requested I email a copy of invoice which I got from NewEgg. Two days latter new bios chip in the mail And Bobs your uncle. Very pleased with the response. John PS it was on a Linux system and no one even chirped once about not supporting Linux.
Name the companies and the products.
Otherwise you risk being deemed a "whiny bitch"
or simply a pot-stirrer.
What good does this do without that information? Who can it help?
Maurice W. Hilarius Voice: (778) 347-9907
BIOS flashing shouldn't be that scary thing that might brick your computer. It's just software. Manufacturers should take the responsibility that their BIOS updates work.
If you do this on a production machine without testing first you are 100% to blame. You can cry about how 'someone told me to' all day. Is this not common sense?
After bricking three successive broadband routers using firmware upgrades recommended by their respective manufacturers, my position on firmware upgrades is simple: NEVER do them, unless you have nothing to lose (i.e. if your device is working so badly that you would need to replace it anyway).
It is bad design if their upgrade programs brick their devices against all recovery methods. I've worked for several companies as a firmware engineer and our products were not brickable. The bootloader is not customer flashable, everything else is. Several of my products were RAID controllers in competition with LSI. I would suggest shouting far and wide that a consumer upgrade procedure was capable of bricking their device. Even the small computers which use uboot and like-bootloaders can be field recovered using an inexpensive (under $50) bring-up device if the manufacturers so choose. Designs like graphics controllers should have a recovery method using a PC app which placed the executable into RAM and then the user forces the graphics card into a special boot mode which looks for the executable at a pre-defined address.
I've never worked on a PC motherboard main-CPU design but I would think that a good BIOS design should have an A-image and a B-image where you can not bootload the A-image from itself and vice-versa.
.. Blub falls right in the middle of the abstractness continuum. -- Paul Graham
I upgraded the BIOS, I think it had to do with turning on a virtual mode.
Bricked it like nobody's business. Nothing like a blank screen when you turn it on.
My previous desktop was easy to flash, and had a large enough flash chip that it actually kept the old image, and you could boot it so that it would recover. Unless, I'm guessing, that it was so bad that it couldn't do much. Makes me wonder. But it never bricked, and I never had an issue.
Bryan
It says in practically every BIOS upgrade procedure to first dump the existing bios and save it, so you can restore the old bios if the new one doesn't work out. If you didn't do that, you are an idiot for not following the manufacturers instruction.
My main concern is this: If the manufacturer gets punished for failing to properly support out of warranty hardware, they'll just stop altogether. Too many manufacturers will already refuse to talk to you about out of warranty equipment.
Since they tried to help, I'd prefer not to see them punished for this mistake. Think of it like good samaritan laws: They protect a person who stops to offer aid to the injured, from being sued.
My other thought is that perhaps there was some hidden problem that something in the update triggered. Updates often have new functionality, or may write to memory not used before, so it isn't too hard to imagine them tickling an existing bug. For a car analogy, imagine you bought a used car from a friend and complained that it shook horribly at 75, but since your friend never went over 65 he never noticed when the tires and alignment deteriorated to that point.
Finally, I'm appalled that they don't make old firmware versions available. That would be the appropriate response to your problem. Hopefully you can find someone helpful who has the old firmware around, either inside or outside the companies. Definitely appropriate for people to be warned that these updates can cause problems.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
What specific bug you've hit and why they think upgrading the firmware will fix it. If they can't give you a good answer then don't upgrade. P.s this is why software RAID (e.g zfs, lvm, bttrfs) is better for home computers and servers (RAID card independant). Also this is why an enterprise server or storage array would be under a maintenance agreement.
I'm too far down for this comment to really matter, but in general, it is possible to unbrick a failed BIOS flash. The reason is that already for some time all (or maybe almost all) manufacturers have two parts of the BIOS - one that gets updated, and a second part that never does, or maybe can't. The second part (actually it is the first), only has very rudimentary software. It can read floppy disks, but not much more than that. The idea is exactly that you can recover from a failed flash.
That means that to recover, you need to get the right program into a floppy, with the right BIOS on it. You then boot into this special flash mode, which often means pressing some key combination. I've done it on an LE1700 that I bought of e-bay, and I'm pretty sure you can do it on almost any computer.
In some more modern BIOSes you don't need a floppy, but can do it with a USB stick.
I'm too lazy to do a thorough search for the exact procedure, but here are two good links that I found:
http://www.mydellmini.com/forum/dell-mini-10v/18080-how-unbrick-mini-10v-using-floppy-drive.html (this will work also on other computers, I think)
http://www.wikihow.com/Reflash-BIOS
On top of that make an internet research about the upgrade.
Honestly: if you are in a corporate environment there is no reason _inside_ to upgrade stuff, regardless what reason is given by the vendors, except in very rare cases. (E.g. girewalls etc. are protecting you, so how should a security flaw _inside_ be a _serious_ problem?)
With inside I mean the computers/hardware inside of your corporate network.
What I want to say: judge if an upgrade is so serious you need to install it immediately.
Make a google/internet research what others say about it. If possible wait until you get enough google hits. Likely you only get hits if something went bad with the upgrade. So chose your timeframe.
German companies, I mean big ones, but its true for smaller ones as well, e.g. never upgrade to a new Windows version until the one they are currently running is _failing_ (not no longer supported, but: _failing_).
Of course this approach does not work, e.g. if a BIOS or firmware upgrade needs to be done for your gateways (routers to the outside) or similar.
In such cases obviously you need a backup. A replacement router from a different vendor, another RAID controller or another set of harddrives, what ever you do.
I remember an online game where suddenly there was a new TeamSpeak client available. Lots of people upgraded, with the result that the server rejected the connections, as the server was old and outdated. I keep my TS client as it is and only upgrade when the server rejects me because my client is to old (and I install the new version into a new folder so I can run both at the same time)
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If the device was in warranty when they advised you to flash it, then you bricked it by flashing, and it was the flashing that caused it to fall out of warranty. Then yes it is their responsibility.
How if it was out of warranty before, then there is no reason it should be in warranty after. At that point it's just a risk you took. You should look at equipment that has longer warranties.
BTW I've flashed firmware on many devices without any issues. If you used incorrect firmware, or attempt to abort the firmware update because it's taking too long then it's you who damaged the device. You need to follow the directions precisely.
I believe that to be an inaccurate assessment.
Example, was an upgrade that failed. I then removed the chip to flash it on a USB powered flashing device. I could see the chip, I could see the file, I could "write" the file - but every attempt to do so yielded a blank chip when I attempted to read the finished product.
I gave up, and wrote the original BIOS back to the chip, but that required two attempts to do so.
I don't understand the process or the chips well enough to even try to explain why, but it happened. Maybe it's as simple a thing as, the new BIOS was a few bytes to big to fit onto the chip. Maybe the chip was faulty in some way, but passed QC inspection. Maybe electricity behaves differently in my county. I don't know, but flashes don't always work right.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
When doing work on machines that are out of support (and the PowerEdge 1950 is old hardware), you take your chances, that's all you can do.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
I mean, don't do the BIOS upgrade. Is this a trick question?
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
This particular motherboard did not allow downgrades, asshole. I had a lower version firmware but the in-bios utility, the windows flasher, and even the dos flasher refused to do it. As I understand, it's increasingly common with uefi boards (my last two).
Since you mentioned broadband routers, how would you treat security updates? Would you consider a potentially insecure system as nothing to lose?
Dual BIOS setups work for 9 out of 10 times, but it won't make the system unbrickable. The true unbrickable solution is to make the critical portion unflashable. BIOS was not supposed to be like an operating system which needs regular update, so if you want to make it flashable you need another pre-BIOS environment that needs/accepts no upgrade and can load up a good BIOS. Some motherboards already had this feature back in the Pen4 era, but they used floppies for re-flashing so I don't know if it's still possible.
Here's a stupid question in response to your question - how in the fuck do you expect to find that out here at Slashdot? Talk to a lawyer. Save our time with this insipid bullshit. We get it. If you're so big into following advice, follow the only piece of advice that is more than populist masturbation or insufferable ego-driven bullshit.
Merchantilism - "the economic theory that trade generates wealth and is stimulated by the accumulation of profitable balances, which a government should encourage by means of protectionism." ... ... ...
Complexity is the enemy of utility.
I still like the comments from Walking on thin ice By Peter de Jager, an international speaker on the subject of change and technology. He testified before Congress on the Year 2000 problem.
Here's a good example of a well-known Mac application that can't handle a very simple Year 2000 entry.
When I purchased * (in 19XX, version 1.5), I didn't intend to use it for a limited time only. I bought it to perform a particular task for as long as I had reason to perform that task. "Ah ha!" I can hear you cry, "he's not on the most recent version! That's why he's having a problem!" Sorry, but you're missing the point and making a very interesting assumption about the computer software industry. * version 1.5 does everything I want an accounting product to do, so why should I shell out more money for features I don't need, can't afford, or choose not to acquire?
I don't know if the concept of mandatory upgrades has been communicated to corporate America. And I don't believe the concept is ethical.
One could argue that the Year 2000 problem in * is a bug, and we all know unexpected bugs are beyond our control. We accept that it's impossible to eradicate all bugs. We live in the real world.
Fair enough. But this expiration date is not unexpected. The programmers of * knew it exists -- after all, they created a specific error message to inform users who violate the allowable range of dates. Hardly what you would describe as an "unexpected" bug.
Just curious, what do you do when all the vendors in an area have screwed you over? Do without critical hardware?
No his statement is not. I too have flashed hundred of devices and bios/firmware upgrades tp hundreds more. I do manage a half dozen of the systems and cards in question along with a dozen 2950's that often times have the same Dell PERc branded LSi controller. A quick google search will show you that there are 6 plus years of bios/firmware for said machine. I know every time I go to the dell site for firmware I find myself cussing them because I don't want every decimal version that has been put out for the last 10 years. If you follow the instructions to the letter (and the 1950 and 1950 have a floppy or usb emulated floppy) you will not have a problem unless you have a faulty chip. While I don't upgrade the bios unless I am specifically fixing an issue either, I have yet to have one brick a device. Failure is a more probably the outcome which generally leaves you with no change or forced to do it again a couple of more times.
I flashed hundreds of BIOS in my lifetime, never once had this broke something.
Any firmware update such as a BIOS flash should be done only after the hardware manufacturer has installed an EEPROM flash chip that is at least twice the size of the code being written to it.
If the new firmware is being downloaded and then installed, the firmware should be loaded into the unused portion of the flash chip. Then a CRC or better check sum done on the code in the unused part of the flash chip. Then and only then should the new firmware be loaded into the main section of the flash chip and rebooted.
The firmware upgrade program should also store the original flash code in RAM. Then after a re-flash with the new firmware, but before a reboot, it should compare the new code with the code in the aux part of the flash. If they are not the same, the original code should be flashed back into the EEPROM.
This does mean that the hardware device maker needs to install a flash EEPROM that is at least four times in size of the original flash code. But these chips are cheap. And any user-controlled flash upgrade is inherently flaky.
I'm an IT pro, and I have flashed thousands of devices in my career. Hundreds of MB'a and countless HDs, cd-roms, RAID controllers, and amd network devices like WAPs. The only time I have bricked a device is when I lost power in the process. Even then, I was able to recover the device with some googling.
Maybe I've been lucky or maybe just buy H/W from good manufactures like Cisco, Dell, and HP.
Amen that.
First off, I wasn't advised to do a BIOS update. I was updating the BIOS just to have an updated BIOS. In the middle of the update process the laptop power cut out. I was pretty certain that I had bricked it. I called Toshiba and they agreed that yes I had bricked it. There was nothing to be done they said except buy a new motherboard for the laptop which is about the same price as buying a new laptop. I didn't accept that as a final answer.
After some panicked googling I came across info on an "emergency" way to flash the BIOS. It involved having the BIOS file on a thumbdrive and pressing some key combo on boot up. That worked, which was great. What really tees me off is that Toshiba support didn't tell me about this alternative way to flash the BIOS. I doubt that they were unaware of it.
...unless you're experiencing a problem expressly fixed by a BIOS patch - do NOT update your BIOS.
As much as I like to upgrade like the next guy - I've experienced far more problems than fixes with most bios updates. The only time I update now is when they specifically fix a problem I'm having.
In the case of your 'really expensive' stuff or essential hardware - if it's just a security patch - get a nice $50 router with firewall and plug your device into that. No use risking or destroying a piece of essential hardware on a BIOS update that is ALWAYS a risky operation.
And shame them. Shame them publicly on reviews and on their forums. Be courteous by not using foul language or being irate - but state the facts and how they treated you. If they don't realize this is super-bad PR, then these guys likely don't deserve your business.
I manage a fleet of 1950s and constantly upgrade all the components' firmware/BIOS. I've yet to "brick" a server.
I am no expert, but often my friends and acquaintance call me when they do something stupid to their machines. I have had a few calls about flashed bios and my solution is always the same, remove the lithium battery on the motherboard, restart, tell them not to do that again. I don't know where I picked up that trick but removing the battery seems to revert a motherboard back to default bios/settings. Does anyone care to comment on this? I know if you ask your manufacture for help they will just tell you to buy a new chipset, is this some sort of secret they don't want to get out? I know most people say your motherboard is done when a flash goes wrong, but this has always worked for me.
What more could be said? You risk bricking the device, and having the manufacturer say just that.
Don't upgrade firmware yourself out of warranty, unless you have a proven recovery procedure, that you are prepared to follow.
Unless you are a hacker, and prepared to take extreme measures, such as leveraging an EEPROM programmer to restore the original image..
Have a manufacturer authorized service provider handle the upgrade, and make sure you transfer a risk of failure to them, or don't do it.
If a manufacturer suggests you upgrade... which is unusual, usually they won't provide support to customers out of warranty -- if they do, make sure and get it in writing, and get a promise in writing that they will provide a replacement if the upgrade breaks it.
Or else... pay the manufacturer for out-of-warranty service, and send in the unit.
It's certainly not reasonable to be expecting support, for free, after expiration of the support, though. The manufacturer is not in the wrong refusing to spend money, that wasn't part of the warranty or expected cost of their sale of the hardware to you.
Don't argue with Dogma. Those that believe it don't listen and nobody else cares.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
A Jackass like the first AC with the whole 'blaming the victim' dogma?
The key question remains, is he a victim of his own incompetence, a malicious company or an 'act of god' (shit happens). Your assumptions aren't valid ether.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I am in a somewhat similar situation currently with my PlayStation 3. Hadn't turned it on for a while, bought a game and it worked just fine except for refusing to connect to the PlayStation Network because the software wasn't up-to-date. Ran the system update after which the DVD-drive didn't work, nor is it even recognized by the system. Not sure what happened, a hardware failure during the update is of course a possibility but for something that doesn't use the drive it sounds very unlikely. Apparently because it is out of warranty they refuse any responsibility and I'd need to buy a new one.
The reason why I mention this is that the discussion on the case of the OP seemed to be taking the 'what is the legal status of recommendations?' path. In this case not doing the system update does in fact disable critical functionality of the system and can thus be considered 'not a recommendation or even optional'. The end result still seems to be the same though.
Sounds like youre just a tard and messed up the flash. If there really was some inherent problem with the bios it wouldnt just be some jackass on slashdot posting about it. It would be well known and widely reported by well, credible and intelligent places that could find out if it is indeed the problem.
I bet if tried to change your own oil and put in cooking oil, or didnt put the new filter on after taking the old one off you would complain that the car company gave you bad directions in the owners manuals because it specifically didnt say "do not put crisco in your engine during an oil change". Or if the car company says "You need to change your oil every 5,000 miles" so you change it every 5k miles and one day a rod breaks, piston head cracks or something do you automatically throw a tantrum because the car manufacturer wont replace it because the car is out of warranty? "BUT YOU SAID TO CHANGE THE OIL! I KNOW ITS OUR OF WARRANTY BUT ITS STILL YOUR FAULT!"
If you want to rant then just shut up and blog it.
Lets face facts. Stuff dies, if its out of warranty when it dies then how can you complain? If you honestly expect every single pc part ever to last forever then your a dildo brain. Go buy a new one and shut up already.
Honestly, if this is your biggest problem in life then you have no problems.
All it takes is a 25pin d-sub and a couple of wires so make a rayer_spi cable...
I bricked about 4 hardisk. 2 from office computer. 3 is Seagate SATA drive and 1 is WDC SATA drive. I have to upgrade since they told me those drive have problem of data corruption on transfering to its SATA channel.
When i applied those firmwares. Immediately, it dies...
I NEVER
The chips themselves are anywhere from 10-100 dollars to buy, if you find a blank one, (or if you get lucky and find one with the right version), and then you need to have an expert or someone with the equipment to flash a version of the BIOS, a version that last worked for you.. I bought a Biostar MB, I had to update the bios but the update (which was from the official BioStar site) but it completely failed. I have successfully flashed BIOS chips several times by closely following every step with different boards so the update for this board was a waste.
The Ebay approach is a joke they almost always jack up the price, the board was around 100 bux when I built my system, Ebay wanted 300!! I could not find the board anywhere else including the online stores I had used to research the best price, and purchase the board, even surplus stores where out of them..
The MB Makers should be the ones responsible for this problem, after it happened to me, I used forums or search engines to find comments or reviews on if a BIOS upgrade was effective or it caused a crash.
I tear apppart that computer then i hook it to an SPI programmer made of spare wires and an old parallel port.
Then when it's back to working again i start disassembling the damn bios update to fix the problem on my own and to add even more locked features.
Most of all never contact support, that's the last thing on earth that can bring you help on your journey.
Then i live happy and have many children.
Well, I've flashed bioses, firmwares and roms for 20 years, and never once bricked anything. Maybe that's because I usually read the instructions carefully and follow them religiously. I say this is the case of RTFM.
Name the companies, they screwed you over.
I never do firmware or bios upgrades unless there is a very, very good reason. These things have a habit of bricking equipment.
Ever used Sky Broadband in the UK? They auto-upgrade firmware out of your control and have the router rigged up for central control at the ISP. It's quite a testament to how safe firmware upgrades really are given they rarely ever break down.
BUT: I hacked away updating/control by editing XML files (now points at 127.0.0.1) because I don't trust Rupert Murdoch after the news scandals.
I've flashed enormous numbers of devices over the years (personal devices, friend's devices, as well as large quantities of everything at work) and have never bricked a single one. What exactly is it that you *did* brick?
You probably accepted an EULA when you rain the BIOS flashing tool that gave you no warranty.
Don't flash your BIOS unless something is broke.
Buy a new motherboard with multi-year support if you need that.
I bought a bottom-end vostro laptop for personal use, but since it's a "business" computer it had next-business-day warranty.
Sure enough, I had a little keyboard glitch and called it in and they overnighted a new keyboard to my city and the next day a tech showed up to install it. It was pretty sweet.
I went through this back when I was in high school. Compaq insisted that a BIOS update for my laptop would resolve an issue I was having with the PCMCIA slot under Windows 2000. The BIOS update bricked the motherboard, and the BIOS recovery procedures did not work. They then washed their hands of the problem because the laptop was out of warranty. To say that I was livid would be a gross understatement...at sixteen years old I didn't have the means to run out and buy a replacement. Laptops still cost $1200 at a minimum back then, and even ebaying an old used laptop would have cost $700+. I considered taking the issue to local media so that I could get some sort of response from Compaq, but ultimately decided it wasn't worth the effort (plus, you know, I was sixteen, so I figured I wasn't going to be taken seriously).
This has happened to me.
My GPS, a TomTom Via 220 (I think that's the model) ... well, I got an email from TomTom saying that there was a MANDATORY SOFTWARE UPDATE. They warned that the gps would stop working a week later if the flash wasn't done.
I followed all of the instructions to the letter, including making sure it was fully charged. Then I had an expensive brick. The thing won't boot any more, it's totally useless. Their response? Sorry, out of warranty.
I feel violated.
char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
After bricking three successive broadband routers using firmware upgrades recommended by their respective manufacturers, my position on firmware upgrades is simple: NEVER do them, unless you have nothing to lose (i.e. if your device is working so badly that you would need to replace it anyway).
Isn't "the device working so badly that you need to replace it" pretty much the standard situation for broadband routers, whether or not you have the latest firmware?
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Like superbios or coreboot when company code has bricked the computer
There's a saying where I'm from.. "if it's not broke, don't fix it."
Why do a bios update if you didn't need to?
After my "critical" BIOS upgrade landed my perfectly functional TOSHIBA Satellite laptop on the trash heap, the telephone support rep asked "What problem were you trying to fix?" To which I answered, "none". After much back and forth, I concluded that "critical" is someone's synonym for "risky". And that was only the last straw. Overall, the main benefit of the TOSHIBA experience has been to help me truly appreciate my ACER experience. No more TOSHIBAs for me.
It's very simple: "Don't fix it if it ain't broken." Going beyond is an extra (unnecessary) risk.
Whether a slashdot editor having a few bad experiences with BIOS updates is worth a whole featured /. article, is another matter.
Bomarc: I am sorry to hear of your issues with your PowerEdge server and would like to discuss them with you. Please email me at dellcarespro@dell.com and I will take on your case.
How would the device know that there was a software update? Do TomTom have access to the stream of signals from the GPS satellites to all GPS devices, whether or not made by TomTom, and include a way to brick them too? What would happen if some non-US military power hacked into this communications channel through GPS signals and sent out a virus to all US military GPS devices turning them off? then the US military would be blind, and the Foreign Power (TM) could invade at will.
Or is there possibly some other communications channel into the device which TomTom intend using? In which case, just disable that channel. Then TomTom can't brick your device. "No communications channel" equals "no malware entry route."
What input does a GPS device need other than a GPS radio signal? Oh, and power (available from Chinese batteries at a store near you).
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
This model uses GPRS to get realtime traffic information. I am guessing that the format of this stream was changing, so they had to update firmware. Personally I decided to upgrade before the deadline. There is no way to disable the GPRS channel that I am aware of -- and I wanted to keep the traffic info, as it was extremely useful to me for avoiding frequent jams.
char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
Are you talking about a SatNav system, not a GPS system? A SatNav that uses GPS for it's positioning data and has some other junk related to cars and roads, and TomTom have broken that other stuff?
You can't disable the SatNav functions and retain the GPS functions? Yeuch - remind me to not get one of those, even if they're remaindered.
The SatNav my wife got me a few years ago was bloody atrocious too - it wouldn't output any of it's GPS information either, and it's maps were at least 20 years out of date in our area AFTER the "get updated maps" operation, and they wanted a 2 year (=£720) commitment to a subscription before they'd even accept bug reports for their maps. Still, it provides endless entertainment as the "deranged crack addict", which is about as much as one expects from such things. And it does get some roads right - you just have to know which ones are right. Which rather defeats the object of the exercise, doesn't it?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Because they made good motherboards, so I assumed that they also made good BIOS update software.
I was upgrading my mothers computer, and decided at the last minute to top it off with the latest BIOS. The manufacturer (a famous 3 letter name brand) offered not only the standard DOS bootable upgrade, but also an "In Windows" BIOS updater. And even though my experience and knowledge told me that this was EXTREMELY unlikely, I assumed that if they were offering it as the preferred method of doing a year old BIOS update, and since I couldn't find any posts either complaining about it, that they'd figured out how to do a BIOS upgrade from inside Windows.
BAD decision.
My first hint that the BIOS upgrade didn't take was that their verification program kept saying it didn't work. I tried loading both the old and new BIOS, but the final check always failed. I kept the computer on for three days knowing that if I reboot it, that it'd become a brick. And of-course, when I did finally reboot, it was a brick.
This really pissed me off because the thing was a really good computer, with several more years of life left in it.
I even considered buying a chip programmer, but the BIOS was surface mounted, and my desoldering skills are even worse than my soldering skills.
THINK! It's patriotic
Lesson (re)learned? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
THINK! It's patriotic
GPRS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service
It's the slowest kind of internet access I'm aware of. I believe WAP used to use GPRS for comms. It is really really slow.
Yeah, this is a satnav -- but these things are commonly referred to as gps units, even though they do more than that.
char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
I first started accessing the Internet with a 2400bps modem down a telephone line at 3 i nthe morning - to avoid blocking the line for the other people in the house. And paying £0.042/minute for that access. I'll go and get my Zimmer frame now.
Being commonly referred to as a GPS doesn't make it right to refer to them as GPS units. The common herd may do that, but this s Slashdot, a gathering place for self-proclaimed nerds who do know better.
I'm holding off from getting a satellite navigation tool to replace the one that was burgled in 2003, in part in anticipation of the installation of the Galileo system and the expansion of the GLONASS system. But I'm also careful about having such systems, because there are places where I've worked (and courted, and I expect to return to, for more work), where possession of such equipment is grounds for being charged with espionage, and nobody sane gives the police the slightest opportunity to detain you.
The wife got me a SatNav system for my birthday a few years ago. It's good in-car entertainment, fit for laughing at. For navigation ... well, I'm a geologist. I don't do "lost". There are always navigation clues, and you do read and memorise the map of where you're going before you go there. Don't you?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"