'This Is Your Second and Final Notice' Robocallers Revealed

nbauman writes "A New York Times consumer columnist tracked down the people who run a 'This is your second and final notice" robocall operation. The calls came from Account Management Assistance, which promises to negotiate lower credit card rates with banks. One woman paid them $1,000, and all they did was give her a limited-time zero-percent credit card that she could have gotten herself. AMA has a post office box in Orlando, Florida. The Better Business Bureau has a page for Your Financial Ladder, which does business as Account Management Assistance, and as Economic Progress. According to a Florida incorporation filing, Economic Progress is operated by Brenda Helfenstine, with her husband Tony. The Arkansas attorney general has sued Your Financial Ladder for violating the Telemarketing Consumer Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act. The Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services investigated Your Financial Ladder, but the investigator went to 1760 Sundance Drive, St. Cloud, which turned out to be a residence, and gave up. The Times notes that you can type their phone number (855-462-3833) into http://800notes.com/ and get lots of reports on them."

Comments

Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

These fuckers relentless harassed my grandmother in her final days despite my efforts to put her on the do not call list and working with her telephone company to try to identify them.

Take all their money. All of it. Take it all and put it into something that helps the elderly.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on, man, you wouldn't have anything on your conscious if you left them to die in the everglades? I mean, think of the poor alligators that would have to eat their rotten fucking flesh.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you've got their address.

Now would be a fantastic time to pay them a visit.

You know what we do to spammers.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[amiga3D]

Kind of extreme.......well, maybe not. My father is elderly and it's like he's under assault by these low life scum. There are so many organizations that live off of these kind of scams. I'd like to see drastic action taken.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Frosty Piss]

1760 Sundance Drive
St. Cloud, Florida 32771

http://goo.gl/maps/9P4BX

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[gmack]

The magic words are "I have power of attorney" (even if it's not true) once they think that the person they are calling cannot legally agree to anything they usually back off. They don't respect the law, their only worry is if they get payed or not.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

1760 Sundance Drive
St. Cloud, Florida 32771

http://goo.gl/maps/9P4BX

Looks like an easy target for a Predator drone ...

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[WWJohnBrowningDo]

You know what we do to spammers.

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Austerity Empowers]

Too quick, too painless. People like this need to suffer, death isn't a sufficient deterrent. If your life sucked as badly as theirs, you may even welcome it. The only way to discourage this form of bottom feeding is suffering, lots and lots of suffering. Letting them live, visibly scarred, and in full view of the public may demonstrate that while we will dispose of murderers and rapists, trolls will live as a warning to others in what may as well be an eternity of torment.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Mitreya]

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

In a perfect world, pervasive rape in jail will not be subject of gleeful jokes (it'd be funny if it weren't a common issue). I would like to see spammers go to jail too, but not like this.

Even better, maybe we can fine spammers for "whatever the made + X%" and ban them from using computers for a while. This way they can work off their debt to society with some manual labor - outside of jail would be fine too.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[smartin]

I'm sorry to say that while the Do No Call List seemed to work well for several years it is now completely being ignored. I guess the telespammers realized that it had no teeth. I really hope that the FCC or who ever runs it takes a company like this and makes a serious fucking example of them.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

Poisoning alligators isn't very nice....

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[msauve]

"In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell"...

with a telephone which rings randomly, but at least once an hour, for their entire multi-year term. Anytime they fail to answer the phone, their prison term is extended by a month.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[plover]

tl;dr - "To the pain."

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

Good news everyone! It is near Alligator Lake!

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The real problem is the possibility that they would end up nourishing the invasive pythons that plague the Everglades, further disrupting that delicate ecosystem.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[msauve]

You're assuming they have some sort of internal "do not call" list. They don't.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Nidi62]

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

In a perfect world, pervasive rape in jail will not be subject of gleeful jokes (it'd be funny if it weren't a common issue). I would like to see spammers go to jail too, but not like this.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need prisons, because people would actually obey society's laws and respect the property, dignity, and person of other people.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Paradise Pete]

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail

Your perfect world contains spammers and jails? You should try to get a refund.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[religious freak]

Cruel... and unusual. I like it!

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Pseudonym]

In a perfect world, pervasive rape in jail will not be subject of gleeful jokes (it'd be funny if it weren't a common issue). I would like to see spammers go to jail too, but not like this.

I agree, and furthermore it bugs me that this is one of the few places where rape jokes are still apparently socially acceptable. It's wrong to make jokes about this.

Having said that, I do concede that the temptation to make a joke about typical spam subjects was overwhelming, and I don't hold it against the GP for giving in.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[pwizard2]

That, and the Fair Debt Collections Act are unenforceable in the days of IP telephony.

Partially true. The FDCPA still has teeth but there are far better ways to wield it than talk to those assholes on the phone. If they start calling over unsecured credit card debt, ignore the calls but wait for them to send something in the mail (it will probably happen really soon once they start calling). What you need to do next is send a certified cease-and-desist letter to their physical brick-and-mortar office. Many of these fuckers are sneaky and work out of various PO boxes around the country but they always have a real office somewhere; spending a bit of time on Google usually helps you find it.

Your c/d letter should make several claims: disavow all responsibility for the debt; Demand an immediate cessation of all phone and written correspondence; if they are out of state demand to see their proof of license (and license number) to operate in [your home state here]; and threaten to report them to your state attorney general if they ever contact you again without providing the required license info. If they do it again, make good on your threat! Don't threaten to report them to the better business bureau---it's an empty threat because for all its posturing the BBB can't do shit. On the other hand, having to deal with an AG investigation usually makes collectors piss themselves. You need to understand that these are real dickless cowards. If you make it clear you intend to fight they will probably leave you alone since there are lots of other people they can shake down instead (they buy these delinquent accounts in bulk for pennies on the dollar and then try to collect).

If they actually sue you, it's time to break out the big guns: You need to file a Sworn Denial on Account in the jurisdiction that is handling your case. This the the equivilent of a not guilty plea; you officially deny the debt and require the plaintiff to furnish proof. Never take any settlement offers or deals; they will still try to fuck you with those and the burden of proof is always on them. The important thing to remember is that they are fucked unless they can produce the original signed contract in court since that is the only way to prove that you owe a debt.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[aztracker1]

In a perfect world there wouldn't for-profit prisons, that have lower standards, higher infraction numbers, and higher rates of 'inmate' crimes leading to longer detention terms. (Not to mention the shear corruption). The US has a higher ratio of prisoners that pretty much the anywhere else.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[techno-vampire]

You have a sense of karmic payback similar to that of the Mikado. Sir, I salute you!

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Frosty Piss]

You know, that's exactly why I object to the Death Penalty: It's just too easy for the criminal.

And don't fool yourself, it is MUCH more expensive to prosecute a Death Penalty case through all the appeals to the final needle in the arm, than it is to lock 'em up in a tine cell with no windows for a life of ever increasing insanity.

Of course my morality objects to that as well, so when people ask me about the Death Penalty, I simply walk around in circles talking to myself...

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Phrogman]

Because Prison in the US is like anything else - its been turned into a business so that corporations can profit off it. Its the modern day equivalent of slave labour, or perhaps more accurately indentured servitude.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Runaway1956]

By the time you're 80 years old, you've learned that the one thing that never changes is, the world is always changing. Someone calls you on the phone, and gives you a load of shit about the laws have changed, they can help you get your credit rating back, blah blah blah. You're a sucker for it. Not to mention, most of us face diminished reasoning powers at some point close to 80.

Yeah, preying on the elderly is no better than preying on children. There's a reason that old age is often referred to as a "second childhood".

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[pwizard2]

Oh, it's far from fun. It's a hellish ordeal that may take a year or more to finish (fortunately, it's not an everyday thing and each move may be separated by a month or more). If you do this, you're basically going to war against the collectors but the fight is worth it because you have all the advantages and the law is on your side. The burden of proof is always on the creditor (never on you). Collectors don't want people to know their rights, that's why they are such aggressive and abusive little shits. Their goal is to beat people into submission. Most people declare bankruptcy because it's the easy way out. People don't want to go through this bullshit and that's what these assholes are counting on when they start harassing people. From a victim's point of view, a 50% settlement deal looks pretty good after 6 months of harassment. People are willing to settle to just make the problem go away. Well guess what? The collector paid a pittance for that debt and they never expected to get the whole thing. Even at 50% they're still making a profit, which is what this is all about (it's just another way of financially raping people down on their luck). On the other hand, you have people like me who get pissed off enough to fight back when that happens. It's immensely satisfying to curb-stomp the bastards and beat them at their own game.

There's all kinds of ways you can fuck with these collectors (even the ones who are allegedly law firms) to retaliate for the shit they put you through. For instance, you can deliberately wait until nearly the last minute to file important paperwork for your court case (they have to pay a paralegal to handle that and a rush job costs them a lot more and increases the chances they will overlook something important you can use against them later). The idea is to cost them as much money as possible (to the point where they wish they never heard of you since you're costing them a lot with a zero rate of return) so they will give up. Since you're handling your case pro se in these situations, you can do all kinds of shit that could get a lawyer in trouble and there's not much the collector can do about it.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[Anonymous Coward]

The humor in the in WWJohnBrowningDo's message is that the spam e-mail is famous for
- enlarge penis advertisements
- viagra advertisements
- dating site advertisements
A rape is not the point here.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[GNious]

The US is simply doing it wrong - one of our politicians suggested outsourcing the imprisonment of the hardest criminals to Russia....

Yes, I kinda support that idea.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[RoboRay]

Maybe the pythons will get them and be poisoned.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades

[dfm3]

...ignore the calls but wait for them to send something in the mail (it will probably happen really soon once they start calling).

This. If a collector has what they feel is a legitimate claim, they'll be willing to work through the proper channels. If they're afraid to put anything in writing or accept certified mail at a physical address, that should be a huge red flag.

We've had the misfortune of dealing with the lowest of the low: debt collectors who go after estate settlements. They know that if they put in a claim with the court, they may only be awarded a small fraction of the money they're owed (especially if the deceased had quite a bit of debt and very few assets), so they hassle the executor (usually a surviving relative who is still in mourning) with an offer along the lines of "just send us a check for N% and we'll call it even, or we'll go after you later for the full amount". Of course, they know that what they'll actually get from the court will be much less than their settlement offer, but they make it sound like they're cutting you a deal.

Our response was always the same: submit your claim properly and the judge will consider it alongside the rest. Some did so, some didn't bother. Some were obviously scammers with no legitimate claim. Others even continued to contact us after the estate was closed rather then file with the court, but since the judge had certified that we had done everything correctly (posted public notice, etc), the debt collectors had missed the boat and no longer had any right to pursue the debt. Eventually they all left us alone.

FFS

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Why is it that the attack-dog AGs of the world are ready to go when somebody runs wget contrary to a site's terms of service; but people like this are allowed to operate unchecked?

Re:FFS

[PhamNguyen]

I would guess that it relates to a certain way of thinking about the world, where everything an individual does on their own is a criminal matter, and everything a person does for a company is a civil matter.

It probably also relates to the "just doing my job" mentality where something becomes less morally objectionable merely because you're doing it as part of a job.

Re:FFS

[Tom]

They do not scam large corporations with deep pockets.

Basically, a good scammer knows to not scam marks that can cause him trouble. You can scam a million people with no resources to fight you and be fine. But go against one mark who does have the resources and you're toast.

Humans might be the top of the food chain in the animal kingdom, but we are the bottom of the food chain in the society we have built. Corporations, criminals, politicians - every parasite in existence preys upon the common citizen first and foremost, because we are the easy targets.

Re:FFS

[icebike]

Why is it that the attack-dog AGs of the world are ready to go when somebody runs wget contrary to a site's terms of service; but people like this are allowed to operate unchecked?

Well, when Florida lumps their "Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services" into one agency, you really can't expect much from them except bullshit.

Re:FFS

[stretch0611]

They do not scam large corporations with deep pockets.

Basically, a good scammer knows to not scam marks that can cause him trouble. You can scam a million people with no resources to fight you and be fine. But go against one mark who does have the resources and you're toast.

Exactly. That is also why they try to avoid politicians. The auto-warranty scam was going on for months, than they robo-called a few politicians and the investigation started.

Based in Florida

[Huntr]

To the absolute surprise of no one.

I think fraud is simply in Florida's DNA. I mean, what is Florida in the early to mid 20th century, if not "buying swampland for cheap?" Now, it's the height of US insurance fraud, medicare fraud, mortgage fraud, and identity theft, in addition to the drug smuggling and human trafficking that comes along with major ports of entry into the U.S. It's a crazy, crazy place and reality is far removed from the Mickey Mouse and orange juice that Discover Florida is selling.

And before you blow me up, know that I say all this as a long-time Florida resident...

Re:Based in Florida

[Anubis IV]

You've identified one form of selection while missing the even more obvious one: Florida, south Florida in particular, is retirement central. As such, is it any surprise that Florida is a location where this sort of thing is happening, given that the elderly tend to be most susceptible to it and the elderly tend to migrate to Florida for retirement? That fact alone would account for the medicare fraud, mortgage fraud, and identity theft that you cited.

Re:Based in Florida

[Nimey]

You forgot that Scientology has a major base in Florida.

Follow the wires

[PPH]

but the investigator went to 1760 Sundance Drive, St. Cloud, which turned out to be a residence, and gave up.

But the telco has to know where they are sending these calls. Either a landline, digital service or IP address. Either give it up to the authorities or become a co-defendant in the fraud case.

You download one stinkin' Lady Gaga song and they can find you. Why not now?

Re:Follow the wires

[Anonymous Coward]

But the telco has to know where they are sending these calls. Either a landline, digital service or IP address. Either give it up to the authorities or become a co-defendant in the fraud case.

The telcos make a killing with these kinds of customers, and wont do anything more than their corporate lawyer says they absolutely have to do not to be held accountable.

And, if your telco (the one of the customer that gets called) sees the number 202-456-1111 coming in over an interconnection link, they simply cannot tell you where exactly the caller came from (assuming the white house does not make Robocalls), so basically they have to backtrace the whole chain, from interconnection to interconnection, and if just one telco in the chain does not cooperate or is outside the US, you're out of luck.

The last resort would be ALL provider to have search for an OUTGOING call to the customers number to find the real caller. This is REAL work, because you are looking for a needle (the call) in a haystack, with tousands of haystacks (the telcos). And thats assuming, the call even originates inside the US.

You download one stinkin' Lady Gaga song and they can find you. Why not now?

Because a complete, working TCP connection is not spoofable. If you want the packet with the Lady Gaga song to reach you, you have to use your real IP adress. With the phone system, the callerid is worth about the same as a sender emailadress...

Shameful

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks as though things in the US are the same as over here in little Britain: it's absolutely impossible to defraud people unless you provide a fake name and address.

Wouldn't it be nice if at least one of the two countries could manage to pay somebody a living wage to actually check company registrations before they're allowed to trade at all, and at reasonably frequent but irregular intervals afterwards? Maybe between the two we could manage it? I think we've got about sixpence available from the taxpayer, how about you guys?

All too much to hope for, I suppose. What fuckups we are.

Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"?

[david.emery]

I sent my Senator (Mark Warner (D) Virginia), who sits on the relevant committee, a constituent request asking if anything ever happened as a result of filing "Do Not Call" violations. They sent me a Privacy Act form (so they could query the registry using my personal data.)

And that was the end of it. I never heard back.

On a related note, I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable. (An individual could still choose to not have his Caller ID revealed, and that would be indicated on your Caller ID display.)

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"?

[MBCook]

The Do Not Call list works very well for what it was intended to do. It stops legal calls from businesses you have no association with. Do you remember the "would you like to change long distance providers" calls? What if Dish Network could call you every week to ask you if you wanted to switch off cable?

The problem is that the DNC list does *nothing* to stop the following groups:

• Political organizations - law doesn't apply
• Charity solicitation - law doesn't apply
• Surveys - law doesn't apply
• Scams - they're already breaking the law

Congress chose to allow the first 3 for their own benefit, and no law can stop the fourth, only really tough enforcement and holding phone companies accountable.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"?

[maztuhblastah]

On a related note, I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable. (An individual could still choose to not have his Caller ID revealed, and that would be indicated on your Caller ID display.)

Or just nix it, use ANI, and make sure that ANI data's sent for all calls.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"?

[CncRobot]

What if Dish Network could call you every week to ask you if you wanted to switch off cable?

I solved a similar situation, a long distance company kept calling me. One day I had some time to burn, sorry for them. Within 2 minutes the guy knew he wouldn't have a sale. 35 minutes into the call his supervisor came on to make sure everything was ok. I finally let him go at 50 minutes. Every time he attempted to hang up I asked "Are you hanging up on me?" which I guess is illegal according to the FCC. I believe I got put on a special list to never call again because aking to not be called by them the 7 times before didn't work but this trick did work.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"?

[Macgrrl]

I have a bigger problem with utilities sales staff at the front door. At the third time I have to say not interested in the conversation I actually roll out the old "What part of 'NO!' do you not understand?".

Too much money .... and too little risk.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a lot of money in violating the telemarketing rules. One illegal voice broadcaster was paid over $6 million by just one customer in only 10 months [1]. Large fines against violators are often uncollectible and ignored by scofflaws [2]. Violators often engage in money laundering and brag about their “bulletproof” broadcasting facilities that can’t be traced [3]. I personally received over 300 prerecorded telemarketing calls in some years, and I was able to track down the people behind only a tiny fraction of those calls, despite my concerted efforts in recording calls, filing lawsuits, subpoenaing phone company records, and hundreds of hours of my own time. Anyone who tries to find the source of these illegal calls will find the vast majority lead back to shadowy, untraceable names such as Transfers Argentina, Asia Pacific Telecom, TeleEurope, and Castle Rock Capital Management. Trying to track down a text message spammer is a similar exercise in futility.

        Many studies have show that massive penalties don't work as a deterrent because perpetrators never plan to get caught. What does work is increasing the likelihood of getting caught.

[1] See declaration of Roberto C. Menjivar at 30 (totaling the amount paid to Voice Touch by National Auto Warranty during a 10 month period at $6,013,500). Document 42 in FTC v. Network Foundations, LLC., No. 1:09-cv-02929 (N.D. Ill. 2009).

[2] See Order of Forfeiture, File No. EB-02-TC-120 (released Jan. 5, 2004) (finding Fax.com liable for the maximum fine of $11,000 for each of the 489 fax violations, for a total fine of $5,379,000).

[3] Menjivar decl. at 20–22.

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk.

[Attila Dimedici]

I have found a way that gets me off of these lists. All of the automated calls, sooner or later, connect you to someone whose job it is to take down your information so that they can get your money. I always indicate that I am interested. Then when I start talking to someone, I ask questions indicating that I am interested but don't quite understand what they are offering. If I have time, I keep them on the line as long as possible before telling them I think they are the scum of the earth for being involved with such a scam. If I don't at least have time to talk to a real person, I don't answer the phone. It's interesting that after I talk to someone, it is month's before they call me again. A live person costs them money. They don't like it when you talk to a live person and don't "buy".

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk.

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems as though Wikipedia has acquired sentience.

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk.

[mjwx]

Many studies have show that massive penalties don't work as a deterrent because perpetrators never plan to get caught.

Financial penalties don't work.

If you fine a driver for DUI, he pays the fine and keeps drink driving (in his mind, he doesn't even make the connection between drink driving and punishment. He'll call the fine "revenue raising"). If you take away his license or make him spend a few weeks in jail he now has a real incentive.

Fraud has no such disincentive. Especially fraud perpetrated by large corporations who can simply write a fine down as a loss.

Supply-side fraud

[PopeRatzo]

All you dirty hippies who are calling for the heads of these "Second and Final Notice" folks must really hate free-market capitalism.

These are the Job Creators, after all. And anything that's done to stop them is regulation, which is a dirty word.

We need to just let the free market work and these problems will go away, right?

Re:Greetings friend

[Joe_Dragon]

Hello, this is Homer Simpson, a.k.a. Happy Dude. The court has ordered
me to call every person in town to apologize for my telemarketing scam.
I'm sorry. If you can find it in your heart to forgive me, send one
dollar to Sorry Dude, 742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield. You have the
power.

Blacklists work

[zwede]

On Android: Create a contact (I call it "Spam"). Click settings->More and add to reject list. Whenever you get a spam call, select "update existing contact", select "Spam" and no more calls from that number. For a home phone, use a VOIP provider (I use and can recommend Galaxy Voice). They should have a web page that lets you add numbers to a blacklist. Also select the "anonymous call rejection" feature which will block all calls where the caller id has been intentionally blocked. By doing the above it is very rare for me to receive a spam call.

The economics of this crap

[spaceyhackerlady]

The sad thing is that there are enough people buying this shit to keep the robocallers and spammers in business.

I routinely get robocalls wanting to reduce my credit card debt. A good trick, since I don't have any. I always wonder how the political polling people can possibly pretend their conclusions have any validity, since everybody hangs up on them.

And so on. A medium that used to be useful has been poisoned by abuse.

I view Do Not Call as intrinsically self-defeating. Like "opting out" of spam, it provides a list of known-good phone numbers. If the robocalls originate from offshore, there is little the local authorities can do about it anyway.

...laura