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Physicists Discover a Way Around Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle

Hugh Pickens writes writes "Science Daily Headlines reports that researchers have applied a recently developed technique to directly measure the polarization states of light overcoming some important challenges of Heisenberg's famous Uncertainty Principle and demonstrating that it is possible to measure key related variables, known as 'conjugate' variables, of a quantum particle or state directly. Such direct measurements of the wave-function had long seemed impossible because of a key tenet of the uncertainty principle — the idea that certain properties of a quantum system could be known only poorly if certain other related properties were known with precision. 'The reason it wasn't thought possible to measure two conjugate variables directly was because measuring one would destroy the wave-function before the other one could be measured,' says co-author Jonathan Leach. The direct measurement technique employs a 'trick' to measure the first property in such a way that the system is not disturbed significantly and information about the second property can still be obtained. This careful measurement relies on the 'weak measurement' of the first property followed by a 'strong measurement' of the second property. First described 25 years ago, weak measurement requires that the coupling between the system and what is used to measure it be, as its name suggests, 'weak,' which means that the system is barely disturbed in the measurement process. The downside of this type of measurement is that a single measurement only provides a small amount of information, and to get an accurate readout, the process has to be repeated multiple times and the average taken. Researchers passed polarized light through two crystals of differing thicknesses: the first, a very thin crystal that 'weakly' measures the horizontal and vertical polarization state; the second, a much thicker crystal that 'strongly' measures the diagonal and anti-diagonal polarization state. As the first measurement was performed weakly, the system is not significantly disturbed, and therefore, information gained from the second measurement was still valid. This process is repeated several times to build up accurate statistics. Putting all of this together gives a full, direct characterization of the polarization states of the light."

42 of 153 comments (clear)

  1. Schrodinger would be happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    So, is the damned cat dead or alive?

    1. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes.

    2. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by elysiuan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My favorite part of this thought experiment is that Schrödinger constructed it to point out the ridiculousness of quantum theory and how it couldn't possibly be correct if it allowed for such a thing. Reality sure is strange, maybe the strangest thing is that we can understand it at all.

    3. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by hedwards · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's more a matter of the way the brain selectively ignores and forgets things which would lead to inconsistency. Which until relatively recently wasn't that big of a deal, there were a small enough set of observers that things could easily be kept in sync, and without extensive records, there wasn't anything to contradict the agreement of the folks talking.

      These days though, that's changed and it's going to be interesting to see what the effects are.

    4. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's more a matter of the way the brain selectively ignores and forgets things which would lead to inconsistency.

      Or perhaps it's simply due to the fact that our brains evolved only to cope with severely limited range of environments. We can't imagine complicated local geodetics because we didn't evolve near a black hole. We can't imagine the weird effects of special relativity because we haven't evolved at relativistic speeds. We can't grok the fractal-like nature of subatomic world and physics because we aren't molecule-sized in order to notice it. Perhaps those "inconsistencies" are no more inconsistent than, say, the hydrostatic "paradox" is paradoxical. (In fact, the very existence of the word "paradox" seems to suggest that we just get all too often confused by perfectly normal things that are simply outside the realm of our daily experience.)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They're measuring the average state of multiple cats. It's not a way around the uncertainty principle, it's a way of building up a statistical picture, which is exactly what QM does. Over-hyped article.

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    6. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      Which until relatively recently wasn't that big of a deal

      Yes it was.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    7. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by blue+trane · · Score: 2

      I didn't realize Schroedinger was so mystical. From http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Erwin_Schrödinger:

      Nirvana is a state of pure blissful knowledge... It has nothing to do with the individual. The ego or its separation is an illusion. Indeed in a certain sense two "I"'s are identical namely when one disregards all special contents — their Karma. The goal of man is to preserve his Karma and to develop it further... when man dies his Karma lives and creates for itself another carrier.
                - Writings of July 1918, quoted in A Life of Erwin Schrödinger (1994) by Walter Moore ISBN 0521437679

      No self is of itself alone. It has a long chain of intellectual ancestors. The "I" is chained to ancestry by many factors ... This is not mere allegory, but an eternal memory.
                - Writings of July 1918, quoted in A Life of Erwin Schrödinger (1994) by Walter Moore

      My personal favorite: "God knows I am no friend of probability theory, I have hated it from the first moment when our dear friend Max Born gave it birth."

    8. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Funny

      The Cat is Dead now. Otherwise Schrodinger would be famous for finding a way to greatly extend the life of Cats.
       

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      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:Schrodinger would be happy by operagost · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Shows you have never lived with cats. Put out an empty box and it be full of cats within ten minutes.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  2. Nothing to see here by arse+maker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is old news.
    It doesn't violate the uncertainty principle.

    1. Re:Nothing to see here by medv4380 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's not exactly "old news". It's using the "old news" you're thinking about from 2011 to do something else. So it's an old dog doing a slightly new trick.

    2. Re:Nothing to see here by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yup, they just measured a little of one and a lot of the other. Still falls under the h.u.p.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  3. Uncertainty by ISoldat53 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Are you sure?

    1. Re:Uncertainty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, in principle.

  4. Re:Schrodinger would be happy. by sidragon.net · · Score: 5, Funny

    And no.

  5. Does this break Quantum Key Distribution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    I thought the premise behind QKD was that you couldn't measure the polarization of one of a pair of entangled photons on two different bases at the same time, so once you perform the measurement in either basis, you're stuck with it and can't recreate that photon to forward it to the receiver (you'll only get the right basis half of the time). If this means you can get information about the photon on both the horizontal/vertical and diagonal bases, doesn't that mean you can MITM QKD?

    1. Re:Does this break Quantum Key Distribution? by johndoe42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, because the summary is (as usual) thoroughly overstated. This experiment, like any other form of quantum state tomography lets you take a lot of identical quantum systems and characterize them. For it to work, you need a source of identical quantum states.

      As a really simple example, take a polarized light source and a polarizer (e.g. a good pair of sunglasses). Rotate the polarizer and you can easily figure out which way the light is polarized. This is neither surprising nor a big deal -- there are lots of identically polarized photons, so the usual uncertainty constraints don't apply.

      The whole point of QKD (the BB84 and similar protocols) is that you send exactly one photon with the relevant state. One copy = no tomography.

  6. Editors at it again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    certain properties of a quantum system could be known only poorly if certain other related properties were known with precision.

    This careful measurement relies on the 'weak measurement' of the first property followed by a 'strong measurement' of the second property.

    Weak measurements are not precise. They can become statistically significant with a large data set, but on an individual event basis, they give you effectively nothing. There's no violation of the Uncertainty Principle here.

  7. Re:So... Quantum cryptography is doomed ? by femtobyte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Short answer: No.

    Slightly more details: this technique could only "break" quantum encryption when the sender helpfully decides to send the same message over and over again --- effectively returning to the classical limit of large numbers of quanta, hence self-defeating the "quantumness" of the encryption. Used properly, the quantum encrypted signal (a series of photons sent with pre-set polarizations) is only sent once, so the large uncertainties in single "weak" measurements assure that anyone intercepting the message still gets a garbled, uninformative result (and the end receiver does too, so they know their security was compromised).

  8. This is not a way *around* Heisenberg by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 5, Informative

    What they are doing is assuming that their light source is broadly uniform and averaging over the double-measurement (which is clever, no doubt). So we still haven't learned anything about a particular photon that violates the uncertainty principle, only something about the entire population. If we assume that the population is uniformly polarized (which is reasonable in this case) then we can conclude that the average reflects the properties of the individual photons. If the population was not uniform, however, then the average tells us very little about the properties of the individual photons.

    And before someone too clever tries to argue that you can take a single input photon and make multiple copes and send them through this process to get results about that one photon, there is the No Clone Theorem to here to prevent that maneuver.

    So really they haven't gone around Heisenberg (which talked only about individual wave-functions) but used multiple compound measurements and an assumption about the properties of the group to infer something that Heisinberg says they can't measure directly -- which is quite clever but Herr Doctor's principle still stands quite strong.

    1. Re:This is not a way *around* Heisenberg by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that the no hidden variables results suggest that the photon really doesn't have both those properties at the same time. You can measure the average, but that's all it is - it doesn't tell you anything you shouldn't know about the state of a single photon, even if they are all quantum mechanically "identical." So Heisenberg gets to be right in the strong sense, as well as the weak.

    2. Re:This is not a way *around* Heisenberg by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thank you, I think that's exactly right. The "no hidden variables" issue was settled in the 80s, and this does nothing to overturn those results. The summary makes it sound like they weakly measured a hidden variable and strongly measured an orthogonal variable. They didn't. Quantum mechanics, including Heisenberg's own 1926 formulation of it, predicts these measurements. So let's not pretend that any theoretical results got overturned by experiment! Quantum mechanics is the same as it ever was.

    3. Re:This is not a way *around* Heisenberg by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      Which is too bad actually. Bell's theorem has an out: it holds only if the universe is local. So if someone DOES figure out a way to measure hidden variables then it implies the universe is non-local, which might mean all kinds of fun sci fi technology.

  9. Not a violation of the uncertainty principle by mpoulton · · Score: 5, Informative

    Like many non-rigorous descriptions, the summary makes the mistake of describing the uncertainty principle as if it is a measurement problem, where the lack of precision somehow arises from inadequate measurement technology. This is not a correct statement of the uncertainty principle. The fundamental issue is that the conjugate variable values are linked on a quantum level, such that there is a certain amount of natural, inherent uncertainty in their collective values due to the statistical/wavelike nature of the quantum particle. With perfect measurement, there is still uncertainty in the pair of values for any conjugate variables because the uncertainty lies in the actual values themselves. Position and momentum are the quintessential conjugate pair. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is sometimes framed as the idea that you cannot know the speed and position of a particle at the same time. But it's more correct to say that a particle does not HAVE an exact speed and position at the same time. This weak measurement technique is certainly useful and interesting since it allows some observations of wavefunctions without collapse, but it does not actually allow the measurement of conjugate variables more precisely than the uncertainty principle allows - because the values themselves do not exist more precisely than that.

    *This description is based one one of the multiple interpretations of quantum mechanics, and probably does not accurately represent physical reality, only our human understanding of a part of reality that we have not really figured out completely yet.

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    1. Re:Not a violation of the uncertainty principle by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      *This description is based one one of the multiple interpretations of quantum mechanics, and probably does not accurately represent physical reality, only our human understanding of a part of reality that we have not really figured out completely yet.

      Bell's theorem combined with all the experiments that have been done based on it, rule out local hidden variable theories. So either (1) your description is correct and the particle doesn't have an exact speed and position at the same time, (2) a LOT of experiments have suffered from horrible systematic errors, (3) the universe is non-local, (4) the universe is superdetermined or (5) mathematics doesn't work properly.

      (1) seems the most likely right now, but I'm personally rooting for (3). Instantaneous communication, teleportation, etc.

    2. Re:Not a violation of the uncertainty principle by pclminion · · Score: 5, Informative

      For those with a signal processing background, it can be explained like this. The conjugate pair of momentum and position are related to each other by the Fourier transform -- the Fourier transform of the wavefunction in spatial coordinates yields the wavefunction in momentum coordinates. Anybody who has worked with a Fourier transform knows that if the input is band-limited, the output will not be, and vice versa. To know the position of a particle with exactness implies that its wavefunction is impulse-like in the spatial domain, which causes the momentum wavefunction to be a wave that extends infinitely throughout momentum-space. When you squeeze the bandwidth in one domain it grows in the other. Because the Fourier transform of a Gaussian is another Gaussian, a particle with Gaussian distribution in either space or momentum-space constitutes the most localizable wavefunction one could possibly achieve. The limit of the resolution is given by the Heisenberg relation, but this is a purely mathematical result, having nothing to do with measurement technique.

    3. Re:Not a violation of the uncertainty principle by fredprado · · Score: 2

      (6) Some weird hypothesis you (and nobody) have thought about.

      There is never any guarantee that you have identified all alternatives, no matter how carefully you think about it.

    4. Re:Not a violation of the uncertainty principle by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 2

      Like many non-rigorous descriptions, the summary makes the mistake of describing the uncertainty principle as if it is a measurement problem, where the lack of precision somehow arises from inadequate measurement technology. This is not a correct statement of the uncertainty principle.

      That's not quite right. Heisenberg's "uncertainty principle", as originally fomulated by Heisenberg, is a measurement problem. Heisenberg observed that any measurement will disturb the system being measured, such that its states before and after are different. This limits your ability to perform multiple measurements in a row. Physicists later came to identify the uncertainty with the intrinsic impossibility of having a system be in eigenstates of two non-conjugate variables at the same time. But these really are different things, and it was the former that Heisenberg originally proposed as his "uncertainty principle", not the latter.

      --
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  10. Re:Ah.. BS? by rraylion · · Score: 2

    all experiments are subject to error...

    But the HUP is made for a case of a single strong measurement. This describes using multiple weak measurements which was proposed back in 1993. Good to see it is finally coming to light as a useful tool.

  11. It's the fault of the stupid haedline by formfeed · · Score: 5, Insightful
    While it is news, the headline really butchers it by trying to blow the claims out of proportion:

    This:

    Physicists Discover a Way Around Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle

    versus this:

    The downside of this type of measurement is that a single measurement only provides a small amount of information, and to get an accurate readout, the process has to be repeated multiple times and the average taken.

    (my emphasis)

    /. editors at their best again </sarcasm>

    1. Re:It's the fault of the stupid haedline by sonnejw0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      They are repeating the measurement multiple times on a stream of photons. They're not measuring the same particle repeatedly, they're not even close to overcoming the uncertainty principle.

  12. Re:So... Quantum cryptography is doomed ? by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Indeed, the quality of the senders/receivers equipment determines how much redundant data they have to "leak" beyond the theoretical limits --- and a sender/receiver using crude technology might be vulnerable to an attacker with far more sensitive equipment. Fortunately, once the sender/receiver's equipment gets "good enough," they can be mathematically certain that there isn't enough leaked data to sneakily reconstruct the message even if an attacker had theoretically "perfect" technology. While the "expected range of errors" with one current lab setup might have been broad enough to allow sneaky snooping, further technology development might squeeze this range down to exclude this possibility.

  13. The headline is wrong. by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

    As in false: not true. It isn't just distorted or exaggerated. It's wrong.

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  14. Re:Br Ba by pjt33 · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, Heisenberg bounds the product of the errors in the measurements of the two by means of a Schwartz inequality: i.e. if you measure one very precisely, you will get a big error in your measurement of the other one.

  15. Re:Schrodinger would be happy. by popo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Turns out it's a standard parlor trick. The cat has a twin sibling.

    The rest is all mirrors ... and ball bearings.

    --
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  16. Re:Schrodinger would be happy. by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2

    OK, sometimes.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  17. resolution in numerical analysis by peter303 · · Score: 2

    You can only know the qualities sampled on a discrete digital grid to certain resolution due the limits of the grid. Take a Fourier transform of quanity sampled on that grid. You can only reliable compute frequencies with wavelengths two grid points wide. Else "aliasing" allows you fit an arbitrary number of smaller wavelengths to the same sample points.

    In nature the Planck unit of action discretizes the universe into the smallest quantities you can resolve.

    1. Re:resolution in numerical analysis by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      Close, but your description is confuses frequency resolution and the Nyquist frequency. And a nitpick: the measurement can be anything, it doesn't have to be digital.

      To use your example, the limit on the resolution of the frequency does not depend on the resolution of the sampling, it depends on the extent or field of view of the sampling. If you sample for twice as long you can resolve frequencies half as far apart. The maximum frequency you can represent (the Nyquist frequency), which is like the field of view in the frequency domain, depends on the sampling resolution. Sample twice as frequently and you can represent frequencies that are twice as high.

      This is because sampling for a finite time period is like multiplying a signal by a boxcar function. The Fourier transform of a boxcar is a sinc. Multiplication in one domain is convolution in the other, so multiplying your time signal by a boxcar is convolving your frequency domain by a sinc (i.e. blurring it, or reducing the resolution).

      Sampling is multiplying by a comb filter (a train of impulses). The Fourier transform of a comb is another comb with different spacing, which means that sampling your signal implies convolving the frequency spectrum by a comb function, i.e. replicating it at a particular spacing. The finer your sampling comb the wider spaced your frequency-domain replicant comb is, so the farther apart the replicants are, meaning you can look at higher frequencies without aliasing being a problem. Aliasing itself isn't reflection of the higher-than-Nyquist frequencies, it's superimposition of the replicants.

      I'm not sure anyone is precisely sure what that means regarding the Planck length, Heisenberg uncertainty and conjugate pairs. Quantized momentum, for example, suggests (I think) that the wavefunction must have limited spatial extent. I suppose that implies the universe is finite. Quantized space (a concept not very friendly to general relativity as we understand it) implies that the wavefunction in momentum coordinates as limited extent: momentum is bounded.

  18. Re:Schrodinger would be happy. by postbigbang · · Score: 3, Funny

    Dead. Starvation, because kept trying to measure it instead of feeding it.

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  19. Re:Schrodinger would be happy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...and after that it's turtles all the way down.

  20. Re:Schrodinger would be happy. by recharged95 · · Score: 3, Funny

    There is no cat.