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Tesla Motors To Pay Off Government Loan 5 Years Early
fredan sends word of a post at the Tesla Motors blog detailing how the company will be paying off its $465 million government loan 5 years early. Quoting:
"This is a significant announcement both for Tesla and for the DOE. It is a marker of the successful launch of the Model S and the incredible market reaction to this award-winning car. And it is a tribute to the success of the DOE's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program (ATVM), a program which was chartered by Congress and signed into law by President George W. Bush, to accelerate the market for a broad range of promising automotive efficiency technologies — electric vehicles (EVs) principal among them. ... Following more than a year of thorough due diligence by commercial auditors, automotive consultants and lawyers, on January 20, 2010, Tesla became the recipient of one of three initial DOE loans announced by Secretary Chu, along with Ford and Nissan – good company for a start-up automaker. Tesla’s loan of $465 million was to be paid back over ten years following the start of production of the Model S. Months later in a separate announcement, an ATVM loan was announced for Fisker. It is worth noting that in comparison with these three other recipients, Tesla had the smallest loan. Ford’s loan was for $5.9 billion, Nissan’s was for $1.4 billion, and Fisker’s was for $529 million. ... We expect to generate sufficient cash and profitability in our business over the next five years that it gives us confidence to proceed with this early repayment of the loan. Moreover, it is also consistent with Tesla’s mantra of speed that we would, as Elon announced last week, accelerate the repayment of our loan, a full five years earlier than required under the original loan terms, making our last payment in 2017."
It'll be interesting to see how the reflexive, knee-jerk Elon haters spin this one
Thanks Obama.
I can picture the NY Times doing it, but definitely not Top Gear or else Clarkson would be setting the world on fire the very next episode. Unless of course, they kept it quite from him. But this seems very unlikely.
The cynic in me thinks it's the Apple method, but the hopeful part says, they genuinely earned(ing) enough.
If computers were people, I'd be a misanthrope.
If I win the Powerball Saturday, I may buy one. If I can afford it...
Well, seeing as they're the only real competitor in the electric marketplace, they can price as a monopoly would until their success drives competitors into the same market. That's one of those things in supply and demand that quietly gets glossed over in econ 101 but is really important.
Tesla has not paid off their loan five years early. All they have done is announce that they INTEND to pay off their loan five years early, four years from now. So, before we jump up and down and talk about how this vindicates the loan program, let's wait and see if it actually happens. That does not mean that this is not good news, but only time will tell if it actually works out.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Oh wait, it *is* a press release.
But . . . but . . . but . . . Teh Socialism!11!!111
Except oil.
What oil is in Afghanistan?
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
They didn't have to bribe anyone. The Model S is a highly acclaimed car from everyone else's perspective:
Not bad for a car company that didn't exist 10 years ago
Well, seeing as they're the only real competitor in the electric marketplace, they can price as a monopoly would until their success drives competitors into the same market. That's one of those things in supply and demand that quietly gets glossed over in econ 101 but is really important.
But there's still competition you don't need an electric car, you can get a normal one.
Just like Amtrak has competition on New York - Washington transport from Greyhound and the planes.
Ford's got a piece of junk you kick regularly, Nissan hasn't said anything, and Fisker likewise.
Afghanistan is a proxy lithium war.
Soon enough we will be having proxy potash wars.
The only way Tesla is unique is that their entire product line is based on electric motor propulsion. Competition does exist for electric vehicles.
It would be silly for Tesla to price their vehicles out of the budget for middle class families. As an employee of an auto manufacturer, the money is made on server parts, not unit sales. That being said, the best option for Tesla long term is to sell more units. They may want the hipster image like Apple currently has... making a $400 impulse buy is slightly different than a $50,000 one.
If they were smart, they'd price the sedan to move... not to have a huge profit margain.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
Snake?
May Peace Prevail On Earth
This oil:
"Afghanistan has 3.8 billion barrels of oil between Balkh and Jawzjan Province in the north of the country.[40][41] This is an enormous amount for a nation that only consumes 5,000 bbl/day.[42] The U.S. Geological Survey and the Afghan Ministry of Mines and Industry jointly assessed the oil and natural gas resources in northern Afghanistan. The estimated mean volumes of undiscovered petroleum were 1,596 million barrels (Mbbl) of crude oil, 444 billion cubic meters of natural gas, and 562 Mbbl of natural gas liquids. Most of the undiscovered crude oil occurs in the Afghan-Tajik Basin and most of the undiscovered natural gas is located in the Amu Darya Basin. These two basins within Afghanistan encompass areas of approximately 515,000 square kilometers."
Unfortunately:
"In December 2011, Afghanistan signed an oil exploration contract with China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) for the development of three oil fields along the Amu Darya river."
Oops! All those American lives lost and China gets the oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan
None that I know of. One theory is that they want to build a pipeline through it though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline
we are spending $1.2 billion A DAY for Obamacare.. and we don't have a hell of a lot to show for it.
FTFY
sudo make me a sandwich
They should make a long trip adapter like a generator that you tow behind you or strap on the roof that takes gas. I think that would really widen the cars appeal.
"A good friend will bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, 'damn....that was fun!'"
If I win the Powerball Saturday, I may buy one. If I can afford it...
Let's be realistic, Tesla has never released an economy car for good reasons so the same comments could be made of any higher end car. Tesla has focused on range and top end performance. They can't win this argument because if they release an economy car it will still be fairly pricey and people will complain about range and performance. It's an early adopter company and we will all benefit in the end as costs drop. They want to make money and at this point Elon Musk needs to make money because he invested most of his cash in these high end risky ventures so they would make an economy car if they could. Most of the talk I hear is it's less convenient so it should be cheaper. That's unlikely to ever happen and it ignores the other advantages. You might as well say I won't buy a gasoline car unless I can refuel it at home and gas cost less than a $1 a gallon, just to be fair. Most electric car owners love the fact they can refuel at home and electricity is cheaper not because it's a better fuel source but internal combustion engines are really inefficient when they don't run at a constant speed. It's why hybrids running an undersized gas or diesel engine to charge batteries has been my favorite. The truth is all the Tesla cars have been on par or better with the performance you'd expect for the price range. That is impressive. If you are holding out for a 15K Model S then you might as well hold out for a 15K Mercedes Sedan!
Great success! I would like to drive one! Compared to venture capital success rate of 10%, I think that the government success rate in industrial strategic investment is actually good. Anyone has numbers on this? Note that this is how many of the Canadian, Asian and European new technology ventures succeed and kill American industries. Look at the Chinese subventions to solar technology as a fresh example. As the US share of the world economy is shrinking, we do not have to be the perfect capitalist example anymore. It is time to play the game like the others and start helping strategic breakthrough enterprises.
If you spend most of your time doing short trips, and occasionally do long trips, it makes perfect sense to rent a car for the longer trips.
I lived for multiple years owning no vehicle...I could bike to work (or bus in the winter) and on weekends I could rent a small car for $15/day. Hard to beat that.
If the loan was at an expensive interest rate or included specific terms for what it could be used for, then being able to repay the loan early is good news for Tesla and anyone with an interest in their success.
However if this was a cheap loan that was not tightly restricted, its an odd choice to repay cheap finance early. Didn't Tesla have anything good to put the cash on?
That's one of those things in supply and demand that quietly gets glossed over in econ 101 but is really important.
I don't think I've seen an intro econ class that didn't go on from supply and demand to discuss the effects of price floors/ceilings, and monopoly pricing, usually leading at least up to a discussion of deadweight losses. Maybe everyone I know just happened to go to better than average US public high schools...
So was the Volt.
There are not a lot of parts to sell on the Tesla. Unlike a traditional car there is also a lot less maintenance. I for one can't wait until I own a car like that. Oil changes suck, parts suck, lead acid batteries suck.
Opium.
You can get a used Mercedes for that. But if you can't afford Mercedes new, you probably can't afford the maintenance costs anyway.
The US Government has no business playing venture capitalist to Elon Musk or anyone else. The power to act give loans to business ventures is NOT in the powers enumerated in Article 1, section 8 of the Constitution. So, they went to the executive branch instead, and managed to get some money from DoE's slush fund. If they want money, they should be doing it the old-fashioned way: going to REAL venture capitalists, selling common or preferred stock, or raiding Elon's piggy bank. I'm happy that they're gonna pay back the loan 5 years early, but that doesn't change the fact that the loan should never have been made in the first place.
Karma: Chameleon - mostly influenced by bad '80s New Wave music
I am opposed to "Obamacare" but you are full of shit.
Pulling numbers out of Fox's ass/mouth again?
It is not even fully implemented yet so the impact can't be realized; even then, you have to use the system before/after to notice any change - so right there that rules out most people and makes it easy to appeal to people's ignorance and gullibility.
Obamacare doesn't solve the drug cost problem, it doesn't solve the 30% of all costs being wasted by the insurance "industry" but it doesn't make those problems worse either. That is why it was able to pass at all. It can't be blamed for rising costs - it never was allowed touch the real problem (like every other problem of today.)
The wars kill people and screw up many more people with unpredictable blow back, not to mention how many Americans it negatively impacts. When more of the military dies at their own hands than by the enemy; you have to ask yourself, who is the real enemy?
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
You really ought to get in touch with Musk. He'd probably pay a significant consulting fee for your valuable insights.
I dunno, my health insurance costs went up 10% this year(yet inflation was 2% in 2012...), surely this Obamacare thing is starting to work.
It isn't actually that expensive. Fairly comparable to a similarly equipped BMW or Lexus. Thing is you save money on fuel and even get it for free some times, so over the car's lifetime it is cheaper.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
No competition for the class of electric car they are making, but there are other electric cars available. Or, at least, I see Nissan LEAFs on the highway.
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
From my understanding, this was the business plan all along. Let's build really expensive bad ass sports cars that are all electric. Once they made enough money on those, they could start adapting the technology to be cheaper and cheaper. All the while still selling an expensive bad ass sports car for the same price.
Its seems the Model S is part two of this plan.
Seemed genius to me.
21st Century Renaissance Man
In addition to your excellent reply, it should be worth noting that the route manufacturing companies get cheap consumer prices (like Henry Ford did with the Model T) is to have massive production where you make up profits through volume sales and scales of efficiency. That is something incredibly hard for any start-up company to perform, where it costs roughly a couple billion dollars just to start a major new low-cost automobile with production runs in the hundreds of thousands of editions.
Elon Musk was incredibly intelligent to start out with the high end automobiles, especially the niche market of performance sports cars with a little bit of a twist. The Model S is really aiming more toward the luxury sedan market... again a very astute move on his part where the Model S clearly compares well with a Lexis or Mercedes Benz (or the Lincoln branded cars by General Motors). Volume of the vehicle production line doesn't have to be quite so high for these kind of vehicles and ultimately doesn't take as much cash to get them started.
The original approach that Tesla was going to take was to simply buy off the shelf components already being made by several automobile manufacturers and simply assemble a new automobile. Unfortunately because of quality control and inventory issues Tesla has been forced to increasingly build more and more components "in-house". One example was the transmission needed for the Roadster that very nearly bankrupted the company (and forced Elon Musk to double down and dump essentially all liquid assets that he had into Tesla as well as make a whole bunch of phone calls to friends with money to help out). And yes, Tesla automobiles do have a transmission... even if it is pretty simple in its design.
It is in the announced product line of development that eventually Tesla is going to be building economy automobiles, but that the original plan was to wait until they had both the manufacturing facility (that they now have with the NUMMI plant in California) and the working capital needed to get it all to happen.
The only thing that I am a bit surprised at myself is not the cheap low-end automobiles, but rather why Tesla hasn't moved into the all-electric delivery van market (aka FedEx trucks) or even the short haul semi-trailer tractor market where people routinely dump more money on vehicle purchases that would make a typical sports car enthusiast look twice at the price tag and doubt they could foot the bill. There are electric vehicles in those markets, and having corporations set up charging stations for a fleet of vehicles would be even a bonus (on site refueling without having to deal with petroleum companies). The drawback might be the existing competition as well as the fact that such companies are less likely to be hung up in the "green energy" hype.... and that Tesla can only do so many things at the same time. There are also a bunch of patent trolls hanging out in those markets with patents for electric vehicles of those types as well.... that might be causing some additional problems.
The reason for this is because variable RPM internal combustion engine with all its peripherals is very complex structure and requires a lot of maintenance and spare parts.
This is not true for electric engine, which is a very simple in design and as a result far more reliable. This is the simple reality of engine technology, and a known limitation of internal combustion engines, which is why hybrids run a constant RPM internal combustion engine to charge the battery rather then variable RPM internal combustion engine to actually run the car. Former is simply more efficient and requires less complexity and as a result maintenance.
The Volt is widely acknowledged to have been started explicitly because the CEO of General Motors took a bunch of marketing literature from Tesla Motors and threw it down on the desks of his engineers asking why a California start-up company could make a successful electric automobile but they couldn't. The rest, as they say, is history.
Mind you, the Volt is a pretty good automobile and deserves its own kind of kudos. The GM engineers made some compromises that I don't agree with, but I'm not exactly a professional automotive engineer nor have been put into their position to design a new automobile from scratch. Doing such things isn't as easy as it sounds.
They didn't have to bribe anyone. The Model S is a highly acclaimed car from everyone else's perspective:
Not bad for a car company that didn't exist 10 years ago
Being highly acclaimed and being a success are two very different things. Tesla has a small market they are competing with Porsches, BMW's, Audi's, Lotuses. The Model S is outclasses in every measurable category except fuel cost, and emissions then is comparably priced competitors. It is an environmental feel good sports car and while it is cool the only reason they can compete is people buy it to feel smug. It revived those awards because it was the first electric car that was not lame.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
That it actually made the news. Obviously, this is the exception not the standard.
So they will replace the complete drive train with items that will never need service? I'm not going to deny the fact that less moving parts means less maintenance, however some of the biggest sales occur during collisions... sheet metal and bumpers being examples.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
Worldwide crude oil production is 31 billion barrels per year. Afghanistan's 3.8 billion barrels would supply the world for less than 1.5 months, and then it would be gone. BFD.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Hubris, marketing, bullshit.
When Tesla pays off the debt, then I'll be impressed, otherwise it's merely marketing B.S..
I thought ATVM stood for something completely different.
I'm not sure how it's outclassed. It accelerates 0-60 in around 4 seconds which is faster then most high-end sport sedans you can get for around $100K, and it's made for urban and suburban folks that typically drive less then 250 miles a day (which is a vast majority of people) while seating 5 adults+2 kids.
Doesn't really seem to me to matter who 'gets' the oil. I live in a state that is a huge oil exporter. 200-300,000 barrels a day or something like that. Doesn't help the price of gasoline here. In a global economy an increase in oil globally would seem to be a good thing. Otherwise there would be less oil and higher prices while the same population bid on the smaller amount of available product.
As usual, the truth is buried deep in the summary, and even deeper in the article.
Tesla is not paying off the loan early - they're *intending* to pay off the loan early because they *expect* to generate "sufficient cash and profits" to do so.
So far they've (with great effort) managed to get one model into production - but it's selling at a price such that their planned delivery rate cannot possibly generate enough cash. They've got some sidelines, but as above, the production rate is almost certainly insufficient to generate enough cash. Even taken together, the two aren't likely enough.
Let's wait for the chickens to hatch shall we?
Only approximately. There's an opportunity cost associated with an inferior(from the purchaser's perspective) product and the monopolist(which is not the right word, because Musk isn't TRYING to maintain a monopoly, our language lacks the correct word) is free to engage that entire range above basic economic profit.
Not all hybrids operate like that, in fact, most don't. What you're talking about is a series hybrid. In a series hybrid (ex: Chevy Volt), only the electric motor is connected to the wheels. The purpose of the gasoline engine is only to turn a generator and produce power for the motor and to charge the batteries. In a parallel hybrid (Ex: Toyota Prius), both the electric motor and the engine are connected to the wheels. As such, the engine must run at variable speeds depending on vehicle speed/gear. The vast majority of available hybrid vehicles are parallel hybrids.
Your car knowledge pains me. Lexus, not Lexis. And Ford owns Lincoln. GM owns Cadillac.
Those errors aside, I agree with you.
Right. Because the Afghan war was about oil. I guess you were born on September 12th, 2001.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/14/pf/health-insurance-premiums/index.html
Nice troll, there AC.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The Tesla model S that can do 0 -60 in 4.4s is their $87k performance line that's the bottom end of 911's in price but no where near the performance. The standard $72k 85 kWh has a 0 - 60 of 5.6 sec, the $62k 60kWh 5.9 and the $52k 40kWh 6.5s. As for the seating the model S can fit two adults and 5 kids an hour long trip in the middle row would with two other adults would be hell. On specs they do not compete for their price point, most Luxury sedans run in the 5 - 6 s range and cost between 30-50k. For instance the Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG comes in at $62k and has a 0 - 60 time of 4.2 seconds almost two seconds faster then the 60kWh Tesla Model S that is priced similarly. People are simply not buying the model S for its performance specs they are buying it because it's not a lame electric car and they want an electric car. As I stated earlier the accolades are for making an electric car that doesn't suck which to them is a great feat but I'll probably wait until they can compete in their weight class.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
If the government is going to spend money on innovation I think they should use it for scientific grants and make the discoveries public domain. That way it is not single companies that benefit from proprietary knowledge paid for with government loans, but rather humanity benefiting from royalty free technology. You also wouldn't need to worry about loans being repaid.
For technologies where the government has no idea the direction research needs to go, this may not work. But for electric cars? It's obvious we just need better batteries. The government should just be finding research into better batteries and allow everyone access to the research. Tesla didn't even make any new battery technology. They just used existing lithium battery technology which is the primary weakness of the model S.
OIl is finite. The more that's used now, the less will be available in the future.
Actually, the smart move would be for them to cut deals with all of the electric companies here in America. Basically, develop delivery trucks that do anywhere from 40 MPC to 120 MPC and then sell them CHEAP to the electric companies. At that point, the electric companies approach ALL of the delivery companies and offers the vehicles for free while selling them electricity at regular prices, but requiring night time charging. With that approach, the electric company can simply pay for the electric vehicle with the difference.
Tesla would gain by being able to produce multiple frames, but also to increase the battery production. And if you notice, the tesla is made like a truck, not a unibody. It is ideal for adding a cheap body with a roll bar over the passenger compartment.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
And yet, they are the highest selling electric car going and the smallest and newest company as well.
Hmmm. I guess that Musk has better knowledge considering that GM has this AM announced that they will produce several new electric cars that are high-end cars and get 200 MPC.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The big difference is that the Model S has far outsold the volt comparing to its first year, though the volt is finally starting to sell.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
If I win the Powerball Saturday, I may buy one. If I can afford it...
Or wait.
The Roadster starts around US$ 120,000; the Model S, around $80K. The model X is rumoured to be around $50K.
As time goes on they'll move down the price chain, though I'm guessing there will be a certain minimum. They'll probably end up branding themselves as the electric Audi or BMW: unlikely to have anything less than about $30-35K.
You have to be kidding me. Tesla has superior QC to BWM, Audi, Porsche, MB, Lexus, etc. In addition, it beats just about every single car in its price range. It can carry 7 ppl while still having a trunk. And it does it in luxury and performance.
The model S received those awards because it is a superior car to everything that it is competing against. Not just the EVs, but all of the ICEs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Each Tesla sold in the US puts $7,500 in tax dollars in Tesla's pockets. Estimate 10,000 sales (in the US alone), and we have $75,000,000 per year in subsidies.
I could pay off my house in LESS than a quarter of the mortage term if the bank subsidized 75% of each payment.
Get these specs and I'm sold:
$30k MSRP - without a subsidy
200 mile range
seats 4 adults comfortably
quick charge to 80% in 20 minutes
10 year unlimited-mile battery replacement warranty (i.e. it will still go 200 miles/charge after 10 years of wear)
sufficient public charging stations for unplanned cross-country trips
drag coefficient below 0.25
The batteries are just too expensive to go Lithium-Ion and expect it to go the distance.
I think the perfect storm for electric cars to take over is 5 years from now, when gas approaches $6 to $8 a gallon while electric hovers around $1/gal equivalent. If auto manufacturers ramp up production on a compact electric sedan and sell them for around $25K, people won't be buying them because it's a novelty, they'll be buying it because a gas vehicles will be far too expensive for typical day-to-day use.
Hell to the yeah!
As a new Tesla owner I am happy to hear this. A couple weeks ago I got to see first hand how that money was spent when I toured the factory. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgDcA1pZAM for a National Geographic program on the Tesla factory. The factory is highly automated and has one of the largest stamping machines in North America.
Tesla has the equivalent of a multi-billion dollar factory that they bought and built out for pennies on the dollar. They bought a lot of state-of-the-art equipment from other car manufacturers who were shuttering factories and bought the Fremont NUMI plant for a song from Toyota. While touring the factory they pointed out a large crane mounted to the ceiling of the factory. They said they normally sell for $100K each and they got ten of them for $67K. The one I saw was moving massive stamping templates around.
The loan money was well spent and they have executed their plan quite well. They are on track to deliver 20,000 cars this year, even if they do not get a single new order, and that's without any serious marketing campaign other than their show rooms. They have plenty of demand and seem to have worked out most of their manufacturing issues, many of which were supply chain related. Many of their suppliers did not believe the quantities Tesla had requested and were unable to meet the demand once manufacturing began in earnest. We finally have an innovative car company in the US who chooses to lead rather than follow the Japanese car manufacturers and can compete with the likes of BMW, Audi and Mercedes. They are also working towards building lower cost vehicles as battery prices continue to drop.
They are the polar opposite of Solyndra which was just down the road from them. Solyndra made sense when the cost of silicon was quite high but all the competition from China drove the cost of solar through the floor where there was no way they could compete. They spent a fortune building their factory in Fremont. I watched them build it day and night. There was even construction going on after midnight! (The Seagate sign just went on the former Solyndra buildings).
The cars move around the factory on autonomous robotic devices that follow magnetic lines in the floor so they can quickly reconfigure the factory or move things around. People move around the factory on bicycles, though I saw some electric and non-electric scooters as well.
Many things in the Tesla model S are revolutionary. The drive train and battery technology are quite different than what everyone else is doing. Most manufacturers are using synchronous motors and automotive grade batteries. The automotive grade batteries are very robust but much lower energy density. Tesla has managed to get the reliability using batteries that are much closer to laptop batteries. They can also replace the battery pack in under 10 minutes.
Tesla showed what can really be done by designing an electric car from the ground up. The battery is located entirely underneath the floor of the car and the drive train is quite small. The 416HP electric motor in my car is the size of a watermelon located underneath the large trunk. The inverter is also located there. The chargers are under the rear seats. There's also a sizable trunk in front of the car.
The interior is very roomy, able to easily seat 5 people. They don't need to make allowances for things like exhaust, a gas tank, a transmission and all the other things involved in a traditional car. The interface was also well thought out with the 17" touch screen (which runs Linux and I believe it is using the QT toolkit). The touch screen is simple with large buttons and is quite intuitive.
Just about everything is controlled by software. So far the software has worked very well though I have hit a few minor bugs. Since the car is 3G enabled Tesla can push out software updates any time without requiring a trip to the dealer (and you choose if and when to install them). They have been adding more
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
The electric motor has far more torque far more reliability against variable effort, more stability and acceleration times competitive with the best Sedans. Sure the Mercedes-Benz C63 AM has a 4.2 s acceleration time, but even the most expensive cars from Mercedez do not go bellow 3.5, and many models more expensive than the Model S have acceleration times in the 5 to 6 s area. It is a performance car, despite your unwillingness to admit it.
You may be interested in reading this little gem concerning the Volt: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/10/gm-admits-chevy-volts-gasoline-engine-can-power-the-wheels-so-is-it-still-special.html
So engine maintenance is black or white and never gray?
I suspect most people will just move closer to where they work, unless the sale prices of electric cars are competitive. With a short commute, gas prices can double without affecting budgets significantly.
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Get these specs and I'm sold:
$30k MSRP - without a subsidy
200 mile range
seats 4 adults comfortably
quick charge to 80% in 20 minutes
10 year unlimited-mile battery replacement warranty (i.e. it will still go 200 miles/charge after 10 years of wear)
sufficient public charging stations for unplanned cross-country trips
drag coefficient below 0.25
The batteries are just too expensive to go Lithium-Ion and expect it to go the distance.
Might as well put "fully functional replicator for my earl gray tea" and "can do the kessel run in less than twelve parsecs", too.
Ignoring all the ridiculous things in that list, your house doesn't have sufficient service to quick charge a car for 160 miles of range in 20 minutes. If you *extremely* optimistically assumed 3 miles per KWH, you need to pump about 53KWH of electricity into your car. With the charging overhead, its safe to round that up to 60KWH. In 20 minutes, or 180KW. At 240V, that's 750 amps, which is probably 4x what your house has. It also would need something around a 0000 gauge cable to carry the current, which would be solid copper and about a half inch thick -- per conductor.
Mostly true. However, the Prius (and many other parallel hybrids) use a continuously variable transmission on the gasoline engine. This allows the RPM to remain quite constant - not perfectly so, but very close. I have a CVT in my (non-hybrid) car, and the RPM basically rises to about 1800 and then just stays there until I stop (or need to pass somebody) whether I'm driving around the neighborhood, on the freeway, or up a mountain road (yes, it's a Subaru).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
and is experiencing accelerating operating losses each quarter, I'm glad they're paying the money back sooner because I don't see how they're going to survive long term.
Ignoring all the ridiculous things in that list, your house doesn't have sufficient service to quick charge a car for 160 miles of range in 20 minutes.
I've seen suggestions before of having a home charging station; basically a battery pack that is always slow-charging, ready to dump it all into the EV when you need it.
A corporation would reinvest this low interest loan at higher rates and pay it off only when finally forced. Private companies have the luxury of being ethical like this. I hope it works out for them.
Can you keep a secret: :-)
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
You don't buy a sporty car because its economical, you buy it because its fun to drive and that's the market that Tesla wisely aimed at so they could stay in business long enough to keep making electric cars.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Hard to know what Elon's up to but considering that Tesla has done work for Daimler / Smart / Freightliner and Toyota while working on the Models S and X, he's probably thought of a few ways to put that 80% unused space at his Fremont facility.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
I and others have been making this point over and over on the EV / enviro blogs. Someone always thinks there's going to be a magical battery that will suck energy from the aether to quickcharge for a 1000 miles in 5 mins any day now.
Unless we get a pourable electrolyte like MIT's Cambridge Crude, we'll eventually need a way to quick-swap batteries.
I'd had hopes for the Better Place plan but it looks like they were just too soon for most markets.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Yep. When you're first getting used to a CVT, it's quite odd to never feel the transmission shift to a different gear.
What were the interests for the loan? Today's rates are historically low, perhaps they just borrowed to someone else at lower rate to reimburse government loan with higher interest rates?
Oil companies aren't subsidized
By BERNARD L. WEINSTEIN
The next time you hear President Obama beating up on oil companies and crusading to wipe out what he calls the industry’s “tax breaks,” don’t be fooled: He’s telling a lie.
Recently at the White House, Obama unleashed some of his most aggressive rhetoric yet on the subject, telling Congress that it can “stand with big oil companies or . . . the American people.”
“I think it’s time [oil companies] got by without more help from taxpayers,” the president added.
Only days before that, Senate Democrats had introduced a measure to raise the tax burden on oil companies dramatically, while creating credits for so-called renewables. The legislation narrowly missed the 60 votes needed to advance. But it’s crystal clear that the Democratic Party, from the top down, is committed to turning anti-oil rhetoric into policy.
But again, the sales pitch is based on a giant distortion — a lie. Obama and the Democrats talk about huge “subsidies” — as if taxpayers are signing billion-dollar checks to oil and gas companies. But oil companies don’t get subsidies. Rather, like every other business, they’re allowed to take tax deductions for the expenses they incur.
A tax deduction and a government subsidy aren’t the same. When politicians use the terms interchangeably, it misleads many Americans.
Oil-company tax deductions aren’t special favors. They are the standard relief afforded manufacturers, mining companies and other businesses to help recognize the costs of operations. Oil companies can deduct their expenses for things like equipment purchases and rig-technicians’ salaries. The point of these deductions — as for any other industry or individual — is to ensure taxes are only levied on income after expenses.
Oil companies can also deduct expenses related to exploration or development. The idea there is to provide an incentive to take on the often substantial risk of seeking new energy sources. When these efforts succeed, the energy market expands, prices drop and America moves that much closer to energy independence.
But even these deductions aren’t unique to energy companies. Many provisions in the tax code seek to encourage certain kinds of behavior. Mortgage deductions reward home ownership. Special tax benefits promote savings in individual retirement accounts or 401(k)s.
Overall, the oil and natural-gas industries claim about $2.8 billion a year in tax deductions. Yet that’s a tiny price to pay for the huge benefits the sector generates for the economy.
Over the last five years, through the thick of the recession, the oil and natural-gas industries have added 160,000 jobs. These firms now employ more than 9 million people. And 2011 saw higher domestic oil production for the third year in a row.
Now, some energy-sector players do get federal subsidies, and they’re massive. They’re the “alternative-energy” companies the White House is so fond of. The wind and solar sectors alone take in $12.5 billion annually in direct subsidies.
Initially, this vast government support was justified on the grounds that “clean tech” was an infant industry that needed help to start competing with traditional energy sources. But we’re now years into shelling out tens of billions in taxpayer dollars — in return for little in innovation or self-sustaining jobs.
Today, each solar-energy megawatt is produced with a stunning $776 in investment- and production-tax credits. For wind power, it’s $56 a megawatt. That’s a huge public expenditure for not much energy production. The tax incentives for fossil fuels amount to a mere 64 cents per megawatt.
Worse, despite the public largess, some clean-tech companies have such flawed business models that they’ve already gone under. Solyndra, the solar-p
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Bull fucking shit. Still want to believe this liar? Do your own research. Google "intangible drilling costs" and "oil depletion allowance" (and there are more, if you care to dig deeper). These are *NOT* "afforded to all kinds of industries." Any attempt to claim otherwise is a BIG FAT LIE.
"A tax deduction and a government subsidy arenâ(TM)t the same." No, they are exactly the same.
What, did we get the oil for free?
My understanding is that oil is a fungible commodity.
Oil sits patiently in the ground, waiting to be extracted. The only benefit to extracting oil as quickly as possible is a very short-term one.
Worst score 5 post ever!
Seriously you're full of shit. GM had already built a "Tesla" ten years earlier called the EV1. They had mounds of market data telling them an all-electric car was not desirable.
But the Toyota Prius really bit them in the ass. When fuel prices spiked in 2008, Toyota suddenly looked "green" despite selling almost as many SUVs and GM did. And that image sold a lot of other cars that weren't green.
GM wanted to one-up the Prius HSD system. Read the collective bullshit from Robert Lutz and he has admitted it on many occasions. I very much doubt you could cite your BS about Tesla.
Isn't Fisker swirling the drain?
Fisker's always struck me as "all sizzle, no steak".
Worst score 5 post ever!
Worst? That's a pretty competitive category.
I love Tesla, and I think they've got the right idea with the design top-down approach. But I don't know if I'd buy one even if I could afford them. They may have near-zero routine maintenance costs compared to an ICE car (gas or diesel) but how much does a replacement for that battery pack run when it comes due? And how often? I have yet to find solid numbers for maximum lifespan in miles, or replacement cost. Neither are things Tesla Motors wants to share, and I don't blame them.
For the record, I own a $3600 Mercedes (a diesel W123). Unlike Tesla's cars, there is a thriving used market for those.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
And you can add a positively glowing review from the latest (April '13) issue of Road & Track.
What's really interesting to me is that effort that GM put into killing their excellent electric car, the EV1, on foot of pressure from the oil companies.
The story was revealed in the excellent documentary from 2006, Who Killed the Electric Car? Naratted by Martin Sheen, it's a fascinating story. At the time (~1997), there was legislation relating to Zero Emission Vehicles in California, but a consortium of auto manufacturers were able to oil the legislature and return to business as greasy normal.
All the EV1 were crushed, despite hundreds on the road and a long waiting list to buy others.
One place to watch this video is on youtube- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IENnSK8Q6nE
The point is that GM knew exactly how to make an EV, knew that the market existed for them, and they certainly weren't doing it from scratch when it came to the Volt.
Ignoring all the ridiculous things in that list, your house doesn't have sufficient service to quick charge a car for 160 miles of range in 20 minutes.
I've seen suggestions before of having a home charging station; basically a battery pack that is always slow-charging, ready to dump it all into the EV when you need it.
Now you're paying for two battery packs, massively more expensive charging equipment and you still haven't addressed the problem of getting the current into the car.
IMO, though, its a solution to a problem that largely doesn't exist. You can charge a car, with a 6kw level 2 charger, to a hundred miles overnight. Its a rare day that anyone needs more than that for day-to-day driving. While Tesla-style quick charging stations are interesting, they only work as long as there aren't very many Teslas out there.
The real solution is either onboard gas generators (like the Volt) or a cultural shift to Zipcar-like gas rentals for long trips. (Or, frankly, a towable gas generator... if I had a pure EV that worked fine for around town and commuting, but had a towable trailer with a combination of storage space and a generator for when I wanted to go on a long trip, I'd find that very convenient.)
Everything I'd read previously claimed it was a true series hybrid, apparently I'm mistaken.
A cvt helps, but optimum efficiency for a gasoline engine is when it's running wide open. I'm certain that even with a cvt, the engine in the Prius is not running wide open for any appreciable amount of time.
Yes, GM knew how to make electric vehicles. And of course the entire engineering team that built the EV1 was either reassigned or laid off with the entire engineering effort dead in the water at the time. I'm not disputing that GM knew how to make this kind of stuff (even though the EV1 did suck as a vehicle in a number of ways).
In terms of the effort they put into killing the concept of an electric automobile, it may have been a misguided effort.... and yes I've seen "Who Killed the Electric Car?" It really should have documented a misguided effort of a government agency to command entrepreneurs to innovate, and that the incentives were there for a large established business to build this kind of thing rather than encouraging a plethora of small start-up companies to make this kind of thing instead.
The big thing that made a difference between the EV1 and the Tesla Roadster was the development of the Lithium-ion batteries... primarily designed for laptop computers.... which helped to give electric automobiles a decent driving range. The EV1 used Lead-Acid battery packs and simply didn't have the driving range necessary for a mass consumer product. It certainly could have had hundreds or a few thousand customers, but it wouldn't have ever been anything other than a niche vehicle and was sort of a waste of time for the engineers at General Motors. It still is odd though that GM even bothered to build the vehicle in the first place.
It absolutely is a performance car but it can not compete on it's performance numbers in it's current price range, when Tesla's price drops, it's range increases, and recharging stations become more common, it certainly will be a force to be reckoned with. Right now it's just not there and the accolades it has received are premature.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
Everything I'd read previously claimed it was a true series hybrid, apparently I'm mistaken.
GM hasn't done much to counter this perception for sure. It's not in their interest to say "Well, yeah, it's our version of a Prius". Doesn't sound nearly as sexy then.
I assume some people much smarter than I have basically made the determination that a series hybrid is not the way to go, but I'm at a loss to explain why that is. If someone knows an answer to this, I'd love to hear it.
A true series hybrid would require a separate generator and motor, rather than being able to use the motor for both. combining the two likely saves cost and weight, but that's just my own speculation.
Scaling. They need lots of capital to scale like that. It would probably require a loan and thus needs to be very nearly certain profit. As a maintenance vans these would be pretty good, especially with a 50A power-take off for tools.