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Obama Administration Supports Journalist Arrested For Recording Cops

New submitter SplatMan_DK writes "Ars Technica reports that the Obama Administration has filed a brief in support of a Maryland photojournalist who says he was arrested and beaten after he took photographs of the police arresting two other men. The brief by the Justice Department argues that the U.S. Constitution protects the right to photograph the actions of police officers in public places and prohibits police officers from arresting journalists for exercising those rights. Context: 'Garcia says that when Officer Christopher Malouf approached him, Garcia identified himself as a member of the press and held up his hands to show he was only holding a camera. But Malouf "placed Mr. Garcia in a choke hold and dragged him across the street to his police cruiser," where he "subjected him to verbal and physical abuse." According to Garcia's complaint, Malouf "forcibly dragged Mr. Garcia across the street, throwing him to the ground along the way, inflicting significant injuries." Garcia says Malouf "kicked his right foot out from under him, causing Mr. Garcia to hit his head on the police cruiser while falling to the ground." Garcia claims that Malouf took the video card from Garcia's camera and put it in his pocket. The card was never returned. Garcia was charged with disorderly conduct. In December 2011, a judge found Garcia not guilty.'"

238 comments

  1. A sudden attack of reason by mbone · · Score: 5, Funny

    There must be something (besides a dusting of snow) in the DC air - this appears to be an entirely reasonable reaction by the DOJ.

    1. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Enry · · Score: 5, Informative

      Atty. General Holder made the position of the administration quite clear in his letter to Sen. Paul.

    2. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was worrying for those getting Goggles....

    3. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While he made the Administration's position clear, the fact that they would even consider doing this should appall and outrage every citizen of this nation.

    4. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Rand Paul is the one who thought up the scenario, so we should be appalled and outraged at Rand Paul?

    5. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be a dumbass. A seven word reply to the outrageous accusation was give and it ended with the word No. It's only two letters and should have been the first word your parents taught you as a baby. The meaning has not changed. You just don't pay attention, eh? :)

    6. Re:A sudden attack of reason by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      When I first saw the headline, I assumed it meant the administration was supporting the cops. Is it possible that the Justice Department also misread a line and filed a brief with the wrong side?

      Sounds crazy, but elected officials standing up for civilian rights against the police state sounds crazier.

    7. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Grashnak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People like you crack me up. You do realize that a drone is just a weapons platform right? If you can conceive of a reason why the US government might reasonable kill an American citizen with a pistol, a shotgun, an assault rifle, or a tank, why would the use of a drone somehow be any different? Surely the test is whether or not the killing was legal, not what weapons platform was used to deliver the strike. OMG, they haz robots!!!!!

      --
      Life needs more saving throws.
    8. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Grashnak · · Score: 1

      Er, "might reasonably kill..."

      --
      Life needs more saving throws.
    9. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "People like you crack me up. You do realize that a drone is just a weapons platform right? If you can conceive of a reason why the US government might reasonable kill an American citizen with a pistol, a shotgun, an assault rifle, or a tank, why would the use of a drone somehow be any different?"

      The problem here is that so far drones haven't been used "reasonably". They've been used to kill people on the President's personal kill list, in violation of treaty, international law, and U.S. law. That's not "war", it's legally murder.

      Since ALL the evidence we have (the use of drones so far) points to illegal use of drones, why should anybody expect that they would suddenly be used in a reasonable and lawful manner, once used withing the U.S.?

      If you are the sort of person who values real evidence, you should see that there are very good, rational reasons to be opposed to domestic use of drones.

    10. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dizzy8578 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just as Gen. Hayden made the Bush administration position on the 4th amendment quite clear:

      Gen. Michael Hayden refused to answer question about spying on political enemies at National Press Club. At a public appearance, Bush's point man in the Office of National Intelligence was asked if the NSA was wiretapping Bush's political enemies. When Hayden dodged the question, the questioner repeated, "No, I asked, are you targeting us and people who politically oppose the Bush government, the Bush administration? Not a fishing net, but are you targeting specifically political opponents of the Bush administration?" Hayden looked at the questioner, and after a silence called on a different questioner. (Hayden National Press Club remarks, 1/23/06)

      --
      Landay: "...the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution specifies that you must have probable cause to violate an American's right against unreasonable searches and seizures..."

      Gen. Hayden: "No, actually - the Fourth Amendment actually protects all of us against unreasonable search and seizure."

      Landay: "But the --"

      Gen. Hayden: "That's what it says."

      Landay: "The legal measure is probable cause, it says."

      Gen. Hayden: "The Amendment says: unreasonable search and seizure."

      Landay: "But does it not say 'probable cause'?"

      Gen. Hayden [exasperated, scowling]: "No! The Amendment says unreasonable search and seizure."

      Landay: "The legal standard is probable cause, General -- "

      Gen. Hayden [indignant]: "Just to be very clear ... mmkay... and believe me, if there's any Amendment to the Constitution that employees of the National Security Agency are familiar with, it's the Fourth. Alright? And it is a reasonableness standard in the Fourth Amendment. The constitutional standard is 'reasonable'" ( h/t Dale)
      -- Knight-Ridder's Jonathan Landay questioned Gen. Michael Hayden at the National Press Club in January.

      --
      (4th Amendment for those who are confused...)

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      " Statutes authorizing unreasonable searches were the core concern of the framers of the 4th Amendment."
        "It is a measure of the framers' fear that a passing majority might find it expedient to compromise 4th Amendment values that these values were embodied in the Constitution itself."
          --- Justice Sandra Day O'Conner, the first woman on the Supreme Court of the United States of America. 1981-2005 (resigned)
      --

      --
      *"Cogito Ergo Liberalis"*
    11. Re:A sudden attack of reason by TrekkieGod · · Score: 2

      People like you crack me up. You do realize that a drone is just a weapons platform right? If you can conceive of a reason why the US government might reasonable kill an American citizen with a pistol, a shotgun, an assault rifle, or a tank, why would the use of a drone somehow be any different? Surely the test is whether or not the killing was legal, not what weapons platform was used to deliver the strike. OMG, they haz robots!!!!!

      Agreed, but I can't think of any possible way in which an american in US soil could be killed by a drone strike in a legal fashion.

      The way I see it, there are only three manners in which the government can kill someone in US soil:

      1. Self defense when attacked by a criminal, which rules out the drone.

      2. Armed resistance to a legal arrest, which includes being holed up in a building, which I believe should require the officers to make every effort to take the criminals alive, so they can be tried in a court of law. This includes the case where the criminals are holed up with hostages, in which case sniping them is acceptable if it looks like they're not going to give up the hostages. A drone strike is again ruled out here. If they have no hostages, then an effort needs to be made to take them alive, and if they do have hostages, then the drone strike would harm the hostages as well.

      3. After they've been sentenced in a trial to the death sentence. I don't actually approve of the death sentence, but I consider it legal until we change the books. Come to think of it, I'm actually ok if the drone strike is used in this situation. I don't think it's any more cruel than the electric chair, to have the sentenced men tied up in an open field and then order the drone strike. That said, I would argue it's far too expensive and impractical.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    12. Re:A sudden attack of reason by mbone · · Score: 1

      I am from Atlanta. The principal whether or not American citizens can be targeted by military force if they are engaged in combat against the US was settled there in 1864. The method used is merely tactics.

    13. Re:A sudden attack of reason by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      Wait, they're not allowed to shoot at an individual who is shooting at other individuals? That's not self defense.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    14. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the summary is a bit wrong. "Arrests" are not a legal action per se. You can be arrested at any time by any law officer (or actually by any citizen in several states), state or federal. What would be wrong would be to indict on some civil or criminal charge. The most common charges would be "loitering", "interfering with police activity", "disobeying an officer of the law", "disorderly conduct", "misconduct" and "aiding and abetting". If you protest the arrest, then you can get charged with "evasion", "interfering in an arrest", "failure to comply" and "resisting arrest".

      What they are really saying is that none of these charges would apply to a photographer taking pictures of officers at work in public. However, they can still order you to leave a crime scene, so it might not help much if you don't.

    15. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I must have missed that memo. I looked through my mail for anything with a subject called "The Presidents Personal Kill List", but I'm guessing I'm just not on that distribution.

      I think this is where a [Citation Needed] is justified. At the parent stated, this make believe scenario was created by Rand Paul. In my opinion, it was done for one reason. Rand Paul personal ambition. The nation has always had a top list of most wanted, and dead or alive for a terrorist isn't a problem. It wasn't a problem for Bush, it wasn't a problem for Clinton, and it wasn't a problem for Bush Sr. They don't stop and try to take these folks into custody. If someone has declared them intentions and is clearly in collusion with a terrorist cell, then they have forfeited their rights as a citizen, and have declared themselves an enemy of the state.

      Police will already shoot and kill an armed and dangerous person if they pull a weapon and the officer fears for his life. Now take that same scenario, apply it to a suspected terrorist with a dirty bomb. I have zero issue with said terrorist getting his ass blown away before he might harm hundreds or thousands in an OKC style bombing, or drastically worse, a dirty nuclear weapon. Walking up to such a person, and trying to arrest them and read them their miranda rights is more likely to just get them to trigger the bomb. A drone can take a person out before they have to to react and do such a thing.

      The Constitution already charges the president with protecting it's citizens from threats both foreign and domestic. Holder already stated that using a drone, on a common American Citizen, siting in a Starbucks, would be an unnecessary use of force. That is not an ambiguous statement. I don't care what 'party' a President hails from. Any President who used a drone on innocent civilians without an overwhelming need to protect thousands more, would be impeached, and likely thrown in prison. Rand Paul claiming that this President could somehow do just that, and not face any consequences as a result was pure rhetoric, and beneath the dignity that the Office of the President deserves as a leader of the United States. Even his own party members called him out on it.

      Lastly, Rand himself said he had no problem and would expect the President to use a drone to take out a terrorist who was an imminent threat in such a situation.

      That 13 hours was all for the benefit of Rand, and no one else.

    16. Re:A sudden attack of reason by SirSlud · · Score: 2

      No, you sound crazy. This happens all the time. Enjoy your confirmation bias. I'm certainly not an authority ass kisser, but needing to view the world in black and white means you're going to be wrong a lot of the time.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    17. Re:A sudden attack of reason by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Rand Paul is the one who thought up the scenario, so we should be appalled and outraged at Rand Paul?

      Yes we should. Senator Paul was just obfuscating the real issue. Killing citizens with drones is not an issue: the rules should be exactly the same as any other use of deadly force. It is not different because it is "with a drone". The issue is spying on citizens. When it comes to spying, drones are a game changer (in good ways and bad).

    18. Re:A sudden attack of reason by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The states still have the right to declare martial law and occasionally do so. The last was after Katrina in New Orleans.

      After the 1906 earthquake 200 looters were shot or hung from lamp posts by the California National Guard.

    19. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The same is true if a criminal is a threat to civilians as well. Police will use deadly force in those instances. The method of delivery is irrelevant.

    20. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I must have missed that memo. I looked through my mail for anything with a subject called "The Presidents Personal Kill List", but I'm guessing I'm just not on that distribution.

      When even that bastion of conservative outrage, The Huffington Post, has tagged over 25 of their own articles with "Obama Kill List" it seems pretty silly to pretend it doesn't exist.

    21. Re:A sudden attack of reason by xevioso · · Score: 1

      As I recall, the illustrious civilian population of the city of Atlanta did not consider themselves citizens of the United States of America, but instead of something called the Confederate States of America.

    22. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 2

      I didn't state it doesn't exist. In fact I indicated that it's common for a sitting president to have a kill list. I do question that this kill list contains anything but terrorists, or suspected terrorists. Making it appear as if he's just randomly selecting people with a dart and a dartboard is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at it's worst.

      Just because an article notes a phrase, doesn't validate it as true. I would expect someone from /. to at least do a little due diligence. By your standard, simply putting "Obama Kill List" here on /. is sufficient citation?

    23. Re:A sudden attack of reason by xevioso · · Score: 1

      It was not a seven word reply. The reply to the question was one word, No.

    24. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The police may well need to shoot a suspect that is a danger to others. They do not have the right to assassinate someone while they're asleep. Wanted, Dead Or Alive, as a legal matter, is work of a fiction.

      Any President who used a drone on innocent civilians without an overwhelming need to protect thousands more, would be impeached, and likely thrown in prison.

      Given that both Bush and Obama have presided over strikes that have killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, Pakistanis, and Afghans, your statement is flatly false. You live in a fantasy world where these drones are always using a missile on five terrorist in a remote mountaintop hut. News flash - they aren't.

      These drones are being used in cities and towns. They are being used in areas where the "terrorists" are... which is schools, markets, homes, and everywhere else someone might go because shockingly, they're still human beings and they need to eat, sleep, and breathe like anybody else. They don't spend 24/7/365 in a training camp 10 miles outside town with a giant sign that says bomb the fuck out of us.

      Instead, what we go with now is shaky intel that says Umar over there is a terrorist. Umar doesn't get a right to refute the charges. No one validates any of this shit. No one is allowed to challenge any of it. He just gets blown up by a drone one day because someone with an ax to grind "reported him" to the Americans.

    25. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, they're not allowed to shoot at an individual who is shooting at other individuals? That's not self defense.

      It is categorized as self defense from a legal perspective.

    26. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [encrypted]aS JyvvqC/ mkSAAg 0q8dc.[/encrypted]

    27. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 2

      Now you are equating a suspected terrorist in the midst of causing imminent harm, to assassinating someone while they are asleep? Really? Perhaps you should go back and read Holder's reply. It's very clear. Perhaps your reading comprehension needs work.

      You might also try to remember that during military action, or war, civilians can and do get in the way. It is unavoidable. Claiming the President is sitting there directing civilians to be shot is bullshit. it's also bullshit claiming those deaths are all due to American action. A large portion are from factions within Iraq, Iran, etc. Nice straw man. It's also bullshit claiming all of those deaths are drone related. Estimates for Pakistan for example show drone related deaths to be about 2000-3500. Seems that number falls far short of your hundreds of thousands, but don't let facts get in the way.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

      It should also be noted that the Pakistani military believes that upwards of 80% of those killed in drone attacks were militants. I don't recall the twin towers being a hotbed of military planning, warehouses for weapons, or anything of that sort, but I must have missed that memo too. What they did was an act of war. You do what you can to minimize civilian fatalities (or at least the US does...the terrorists do not).

      As to terrorists hiding in schools, markets, homes, etc. This is war. It's ugly. Terrorists are also known to reside in such places for just that reason. To use their own citizens as human shields. Civilian losses are always considered. Unless you have some evidence that these civilian losses were somehow disregarded as irrelevant, your just blowing smoke. Then again, you are posting anonymously. Go figure.

    28. Re:A sudden attack of reason by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I do question that this kill list contains anything but terrorists, or suspected terrorists.

      It doesn't seem to take much to become a "suspect terrorist" these days. Everyone gets molested at airports for being possible terrorists, and being a suspected terrorist is just a step up from that.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    29. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's plenty of precedent for the government legally killing American citizens on American soil without a trial. Just look at the Civil War. The US government never recognized the Confederacy's independence, which means that all of the rebel soldiers were American citizens being killed without trial.

      This scenario would likely fall into your first category -- the rebels would be viewed as criminals, and killing them is a sort of national self-defense. You said self-defense would never include a drone, because you're most likely thinking of, e.g., a cop returning fire at a gangster. But let's say some of those far-right anti-government groups gain traction and violently take over a small town, killing the police force and holing up with a gun in every window. Surely, in such a scenario, the government would be within its rights to use all of the technology at its disposal to take them out, right?

      If the government decides to drone strike some protestors or something, then I'll be rioting right alongside you, but right now it seems like people are just overreacting because robots are scary.

    30. Re:A sudden attack of reason by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I consider a drone strike to be along the lines of a missile strike, and Obama made more of these in his first term, that the four Presidents preceding him combined... I feel that this is unconscionable and can only indicate a disrespect for life, the risk to innocent civilians, and the population at large. There is a big difference between shooting a person with a bullet, and lobbing a shrapnel grenade, dropping a bomb, or firing a missile at a target. It's not just *deadly force* it's the risk to nearby civilians... Or should we just blow up a sky scraper in NYC the next time suspected terrorists are in there?

      The fact is these kind of strikes in the "war" we are in, are pretty deplorable. I'm all for armored vehicles and sharp shooters taking out enemy combatants, but missile strikes should be reserved for those that are firing missiles back. It's overreach... just like dropping some nukes would be.

      Hell, dropping a few nukes on Afghanistan would be pretty effective in removing any terrorist threats, and we wouldn't need to keep so many troops there. Why don't we just do that?

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    31. Re:A sudden attack of reason by aztracker1 · · Score: 2

      Not with a missile.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    32. Re:A sudden attack of reason by jameshofo · · Score: 1

      Except the fact that its much easier to be anonymous and "unaccounted for", and its a platform utilized by organizations that regularly present to little to no transparency or even acknowledgement that they exist. So people like you crack me up believing that everything is always OK just as long as it was an official action. A person by agency "X" flying a "weapons platform" over your neighborhood can inherently be trusted implicitly to only use this resource for "X". And of course if they crash into your house that's OK right? In fact if its just another weapons platform maybe we should get a few tanks to patrol around for our safety as well.

      --
      Good leaders run toward problems, bad leaders hide from them.
    33. Re:A sudden attack of reason by RazorSharp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree with a lot of what you say, but I do take issue with this:

      If someone has declared them intentions and is clearly in collusion with a terrorist cell, then they have forfeited their rights as a citizen, and have declared themselves an enemy of the state.

      I think in many situations, such as where someone is colluding with a terrorist cell but hasn't declared their intentions, that they deserve a trial. The problem is that the government is likely to claim that particular actions function as a declaration of intent. Here's a ridiculous but not entirely implausible situation:

      Say an American pyromaniac moves to Pakistan. He doesn't align himself to any terrorist cause, he's just obsessed with blowing things up and his freedom in the U.S. could be jeopardized by such actions. He buys several explosives from a terrorist cell and this action is observed by a CIA spook who doesn't realize the guy is just a pyromaniac who intends to harmlessly detonate these devices in the middle of the desert. Our pyromaniac takes his explosives to his little desert shanty only to be blown away by a drone attack while he's setting up his new toys.

      Let's say the guy's family finds out about it and they're outraged. They all know he was just a pyromaniac, they know he wasn't allied with terrorists. But the government is likely to claim that 1) his actions and associations with terrorists warranted treating him like a terrorist and 2) by buying items from terrorists he was in effect funding them, which makes him an enemy of the state.

      The problem with allowing some government agency, agent, official, or whatever decide what constitutes a 'declaration of intent' or 'clear collusion' is that it could be abused. Say a hacker who, although he loves the U.S.A., is disgusted by the unconstitutional activities of certain agencies, decides to move to Iran. He moves to Iran so he can protest in the form of attacking the computer systems of these agencies and he's fairly certain the Iranians won't extradite him for such activity. While this is certainly a criminal act, does it make him a terrorist? Does it make him an enemy of the state?

      Or one last hypothetical. Say Bradley Manning was informed that he was ratted out by the filthy rat Adrian Lamo before getting arrested. And somehow Bradley smuggled himself out of the country and was granted amnesty by. . .let's go with Syria. More than one politician has declared Manning to be an enemy of the state, to be guilty of treason, to be guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy. Are we to let the president send that drone after Manning? To leave it up to the president's discretion?

      I think Rand Paul approached an important issue, and hopefully his stunt made people consider the moral repercussions of drones, the way our government deals with terrorism, the rights of the citizen, and warfare in general; but it appears to me that, like you said, Rand was just politicizing an issue and drawing attention to himself. Maybe his little filibuster will draw attention to the important issues but I doubt that was his intent - his intent was to spew FUD.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    34. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Do you have a list of these US citizens being arrested and classified as terrorists at a US airport? i see a small number of people over the last few years in the UK arrested under suspicion of Terrorism who were actively engaged in planning attacks and who were fortunately stopped before they could inflict harm, but not much here in the U.S. I found 1 in Dec of 2012 in Atlanta, and one in June of 2010. The two in 2010 were actively trying to join Al Shabab, a group that claims ideological kinship with Al Qaeda.

      The Dec 2012 pair also seems pretty well researched.

      Wilson, also known as Rasheed Wilson, and Abukhdair are both U.S. citizens. At the time of their arrests, they were being investigated by the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force in Mobile.
      The two allegedly met online in 2010. Wilson is described in the criminal complaint as a close friend and former roommate of Omar Hammami, an American and member of the Somali Islamist militant group al-Shabaab. Hammami, who was raised in Alabama, is believed to be a senior leader within al-Shabaab, which is an Al Qaeda affiliate. He has been indicted on U.S. terrorism charges and is on the FBI’s “Most Wanted Terorrists” list.

      It seems it really is more difficult than you make it seem to be classified as a terrorist to the point where they take action and arrest you. It seems in many of these, the people in question either did brain-dead things like wear bullet proof vests, and had weapons, gas masks, and other questionable material in their carry-ons, and were arrested for suspicion of terrorism, or they were already on a most wanted list as likely engaged in terrorist activities with some pretty hard links to Al Qaeda.

      Care to post some valid information on how easy it is to be arrested as a terrorist? [Citation Needed]

    35. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems that number falls far short of your hundreds of thousands, but don't let facts get in the way.

      My post doesn't contain the phrase 'hundreds of thousands', but don't let facts get in the way.

    36. Re:A sudden attack of reason by WillDraven · · Score: 1

      He said "thousands" which I think 2000-3500 qualifies for.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    37. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      In your first scenario, the hypothetical is too ridiculous to be believed. I would classify that in the same vein as Rand's rant. It seems the rhetoric is relishing creating these wild fantasies, when simple reality says that any civilians killed in such a strike will most definitely result in investigations by either extreme.

      The second hypothetical is more much relevant. Lets say this person does move to a country classified as an 'axis of evil', albeit far fetched when such a hacker could do the same from here or via a zombies host. Assume they left the country in protest for some added drama. None of these things would make him a terrorist, but rather just a criminal (assuming he or she followed through on the act of espionage). If he was to hack into an agency that and releases information that puts American lives at risk, he or she crosses a line and becomes a terrorist. A good example would be releasing the names of undercover agents and putting their lives and/or families at risk.

      In your last scenario, a politician 'labeling' someone as a traitor fortunately is no where near enough to in fact 'make it so'. They have entire branches of government dedicated to determining exactly what a person is doing, may do, all past and present connections, monitoring where their money is spent and received from, communications, hell, even romantic interests ((any and all connections), etc. Simply being called a terrorist by someone in congress like Palin calling him an enemy (while laughable) is also pointless and yet again more rhetoric. I don't think, I would hop you would agree, that the President would give no credence to such a claim by a member of congress. They would rely on intelligence (something congress seems to lack all too often).

    38. Re:A sudden attack of reason by jamesh · · Score: 2

      There must be something (besides a dusting of snow) in the DC air - this appears to be an entirely reasonable reaction by the DOJ.

      The problem is that an idiot with a camera can manipulate the footage for their own gains. This happened in Australia just recently where a fairly violent arrest was made at the Mardi Gras after a guy 'groped' a stranger (whether it was sexual assault or not is for the courts to decide). The video released initially showed the cops in a very bad light - seeming unprovoked brutality, throwing him to the ground etc. Video and feedback that came out later showed that the cops started by trying to talk to the guy, who then realised he could actually be in a bit of trouble and became very violent, and while it may be that the police used 'excessive force' during the arrest, measuring the exact amount of force required is a very difficult thing to do so I don't really see that there is much of a problem. So go ahead and film whatever you want, but if you release the video you should be held to the same level of accountability as journalists (which unfortunately these days isn't very high...)

    39. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the government decides to drone strike some protestors or something, then I'll be rioting right alongside you, but right now it seems like people are just overreacting because robots are scary.

      It's not the drones, its the non-existent due process. We just watched a war in Iraq unfold where we were told going in that:
      A) We'd be universally greeted as liberators
      B) This would be cheap
      instead it was:
      C) A bunch of repressed groups that liked us (the Kurds and anyone else on Saddam's shit list)
      D) A bunch of foreigners streaming across the border to fight the global Jihad
      E) A bunch of local groups that hated us (because they were on Saddam's good side, or were just Islamist nutters to start with)
      F) Expensive as all hell

    40. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I suppose we can at least be happy at the improvement that this time responsibility is being taken for assassinations instead of a stupid weasel pretence at "deniability" where the President or others are supposed to pretend they don't have a personal kill list (right from the attempts on Castro during JFK's time up to Bush's drone strikes that he pretended didn't happen). Maybe the next administration will not only take responsibility but also discontinue assassinations.
      We only have to look at Russia today to see how scary state sanctioned assassination in a mostly free society can be (eg. an annoying journalist killed as a birthday present for Putin). Israel is another example if less prolific, but going as far as killing off even their own agents that they suspect have been feeding information to other agencies, and doing it even after they have them incarcerated, is an example of how state sanctioned assassination does not fit well with what we see as modern enlightened society.

    41. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      Agreed and point taken. If the Pakistani military believes that 80% of those were militants, than I find that ratio acceptable during military action. Given that a handful of people killed thousands of Americans in the course of 90 minutes. Those would be what I would consider acceptable casualties. Given their MO of using civilians as meat shields, it is unavoidable.

      They didn't give the Americans any such luxury, where I would guess that a high 95+ percentile were just civilians. The only military target was the Pentagon which had one of the lowest fatality rates of any of their attacks.

    42. Re:A sudden attack of reason by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      As I recall, the illustrious civilian population of the city of Atlanta did not consider themselves citizens of the United States of America, but instead of something called the Confederate States of America.

      But the US government, and the Lincoln administration, did consider them to be US citizens, since secession was considered to be illegal by the Union. They also considered them to be enemy combatants and treated them accordingly.

    43. Re:A sudden attack of reason by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 2

      Do you have a list of these US citizens being arrested and classified as terrorists at a US airport

      I never said anyone was classified as a terrorist. I said that everyone is being treated like potential terrorists. Since the government quite clearly violates the constitution right out in the open, it wouldn't surprise me if normal people ended up on a list of suspected terrorists.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    44. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      No, they are being treated like a potential threat to the passengers on the plane. If they were being treated as potential terrorists, they would either be arrested, or put on a no-fly list.

    45. Re:A sudden attack of reason by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      No, they are being treated like a potential threat to the passengers on the plane.

      That is, everyone is being treated as potential terrorists. Anyone who tries to get on a plane has their constitution rights violated.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    46. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DJRumpy · · Score: 0

      Actually the courts already addressed this. In your opinion, their rights are violated. The courts would disagree. As I said, if they were treated as potential terrorists, they would be arrested, or put on a no fly list. As it is, you just go through security. The extent of 'violation' which largely relates to the extent that I personally think is too far. Simple checks for weapons and dangerous chemicals, that catch the bulk of 'simpleton' attempts at carry on, I'm fine with. Full body scanners that don't work, backscatter, etc, not so much.

      I would ask again, please provide a list of U.S. citizens being labeled as 'suspected terrorists' by the Government at U.S. airports, and the reasons for each.

      There are all sorts of idiots stopped every day, like those I mentioned with body armor, gas masks, and banned chemicals in their baggage (this inventory list is all the same person by the way). You would prefer they just let this person on a plane anyway? Give him the benefit of the doubt? Would you feel comfortable flying with someone known to have all of those items in his carry-on?

      I happen to love the quote from Benjamin Franklin about those willing to give up freedom. I think it cuts to the very heart of the debate regarding giving up rights to 'reserve' safety. That said, I also don't' think he could comprehend the destructive power a single person can wield these days, and the hundreds or even thousands of people a single person can kill, whether unbalanced, or using premeditation.

      If a security check is common sense, I have no issue with it.

    47. Re:A sudden attack of reason by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      The courts would disagree.

      I disagree with the courts. The courts can say whatever they want, but I think it's pretty clear that they're not standing for people's rights at this point.

      As I said, if they were treated as potential terrorists, they would be arrested, or put on a no fly list.

      But they do hope to find terrorists. They check everyone because they want to see if they have anything suspicious. Everyone is thought to potentially be a terrorist. The thing is, though, that they have no evidence that anyone is even a terrorist, but they're still being treated as potential terrorists in my book.

      You would prefer they just let this person on a plane anyway?

      Sure. Now that the cockpit doors are secured (the only truly worthwhile thing done since 9/11), they can't really do much damage with planes anyway. At this point, they'd be better off bombing the checkpoints.

      Just get the government out of the airports.

      That said, I also don't' think he could comprehend the destructive power a single person can wield these days, and the hundreds or even thousands of people a single person can kill, whether unbalanced, or using premeditation.

      Safety is more important than security in most cases, in my opinion.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    48. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      As has been demonstrated a number of times, drones aren't especially selective with targeting. We routinely read of some guy being targeted, and incidentally, three children, two women, and a bystander were killed, and six bystanders were hospitalized.

      Yeah, it depends on which weapon is mounted on that weapons platform how many people might be in the kill radius. Still, history suggests target selectivity sucks.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    49. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, quite clear. If any citizen is not engaged in combat on american soil they cannot be killed by a drone.

      We already know from previous experience that posting videos to youtube can be seen as combat by this administration (evidence the american killed by a drone strike in yemen for posting inciting video to youtube). So we are all safe right? I mean, you don't post videos to youtube do you?

    50. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The notion that the state can decide to ignore everyone's rights is disgusting. The entire concept of "martial law" is also disgusting.

    51. Re:A sudden attack of reason by jodido · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, the "terrorist with a dirty bomb" scenario, which is wheeled out to justify any kind of government activity from spying to torture and murder. This is one of the dumbest examples you could think up. OK, a guy the cops say is a terrorist and further say he knows where there's a dirty bomb that'll go off--when? In an hour? Ten minutes? Whatever. So torture the guy. He holds out for a while. Finally gives in a tells you where the bomb is--amazingly, somewhere far away and hard to get to. Oops, it's not really there? OK, torture him some more. He gives in. This time he means it. Oops, not there either? Sorry. BOOM. You think terrorists with dirty bombs aren't prepared with all kinds of wrong or misleading information?

    52. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Wait, they're not allowed to shoot at an individual who is shooting at other individuals? That's not self defense.

      It is a state of emergency, you can get away with a lot of things if it saves other humans lives. Self defense if just one special case of emergency.

    53. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      evidence the american killed by a drone strike in yemen for posting inciting video to youtube

      Yep, you're right. He posted a video, and was blasted for that, no other reason at all.

      You might have an interesting and compelling point, and there's a lot to debate about these issues. But when you oversimplify things to the point of being ridiculous, don't be surprised when people stop paying attention.

    54. Re:A sudden attack of reason by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Do you lock your house at night?

      Fortunately that doesn't violate anyone's fundamental rights!

      it's a simple precaution, but it restricts your freedoms, yet you do it.

      When I lock my own door, the government is not restricting my freedoms. Your example is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

      The difference here being that the TSA is tasked with the safety of the passengers and airline employees just as you may be tasked with the safety of those in your home.

      And in my opinion, the TSA is tasked with violating everyone's fundamental rights and I would therefore consider their entire job morally wrong.

      The courts allow it because congress allowed it, and congress allowed it because that's what a majority of their constituents want.

      To me, it's pretty clear that it violates the violates the constitution, and as far as I know, the majority doesn't have absolute power in the US.

      They have real world examples engraved in their memories after 9/11.

      So they point to a single example and say, "See! The bogeyman is going to get us! Give us security theater or the terrists will destroy us!" Well, maybe they do...

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    55. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you have a list of these US citizens being arrested and classified as terrorists at a US airport?

      (Enhancement mne)

      Do you know anyone who can get access to either list without getting labled as a possible terrorist him/herself and for that reason ofcourse not getting that/those lists ?

      You may want to forget, but children below ages as less as 6 years old have been harassed because their names (and nothing else) where mentioned on certain "no-fly" lists.

      If the people doing those "checks" are not able to descern between a threat and a youngster with (only!) the same name (with wildly! differing age, nationality, etc.) than how do you think those "persons" (bloody morons, with their concience removed, as they are allowed to use the "because they told me to do it" defense because they are "Americans", and not 1945-era germans) will be able to treat you as the American you are, instead of whatever criminal they want you to be ?

      Said otherwise: How can you trust your gouverment when that same gouverment reserves the right to treat your own kind as criminals whenever they like ?

      I thought a gouverment was there to protect their citizens, not to instal fear into them ... ... Ofcourse, imstaling fear into citizens makes them easier to manipulate ...

    56. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The nation has always had a top list of most wanted, and dead or alive for a terrorist isn't a problem.

      Yes, it is actually. Authorizing the execution without trial of an American citizen, even one accused of terrorism, is illegal, a violation of the Constitution's guarantee of due process. And authorizing the assassination of a citizen of another county who is not a combatant or a military commander is a violation of international law.

      In fact, the Army is expressly forbidden from offering a reward for an enemy "dead or alive". (Assuming this hasn't been superseded since this was written in the "anything does" post-9/11 moral decay of the U.S.)

      A soldier with a gun is (if he's operating lawfully) firing at combatants on a battlefield. Drones have largely been used to slaughter people who are not currently engaging in hostile activities and are not on a battlefield.

      Yes, the President could kill or order the killing of someone who was about to set of a bomb and kill many innocents. But he needs zero government power to do that -- if you or I saw someone about to push the button on a dirty bomb, we have the legal right (perhaps even the moral responsibility) to shoot them if we're able. That has fuck-all to do with how drones have been used; and given the crimes that have already been perpetrated, it's reasonable to question what further crimes

      Any President who used a drone on innocent civilians without an overwhelming need to protect thousands more, would be impeached, and likely thrown in prison.

      None of the three American citizens slaughtered so far in drone attacks were convicted of crimes, or belonged to the military of any nation, and therefore were legally innocent civilians. There was no imminent need to kill them. Yet Obama remains unimpeached and free.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    57. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Yes, someone in the US may reasonably be killed by most types of weapons platforms in certain situations.

      The outrage over drones specifically is that they have been verifiably used in two cases against US citizens who were not an immediate threat to anyone, and there was never an attempt to arrest them by conventional means. If there had, and they had presented a forcible resistance, due process would have been satisfied and lethal use of force justified.

      Unilaterally killing them while claiming immunity from Congressional or judicial oversight coupled with no attempt at a formal arrest is the root cause for the hysteria over drones being used in the US.

    58. Re:A sudden attack of reason by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Atty. General Holder made the position of the administration quite clear in his letter to Sen. Paul.

      Yes, Holder's letter says that the National Security Council can order a strike on an American like Chris Hedges, who still fits Judge Leon's definition of "enemy combatant", which is standing law and enhanced by the 2012 NDAA.

      When lawyers say things, it's all in the legal definitions. The more skilled ones use terms that sound like ordinary English but have precise meanings to the courts.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    59. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for that insight, gouv!

    60. Re:A sudden attack of reason by jelizondo · · Score: 1

      [Citation needed] Indeed, you say

      this make believe scenario was created by Rand Paul

      but your argument is precisely a "make believe scenario"

      "A terrorist with a dirty bomb." You mean like the Weapons of Mass Destruction that Saddam was just about to use?

      Please, grow up!

      --
      Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
    61. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you lock your house at night? If so, why? it's a simple precaution, but it restricts your freedoms, yet you do it

      Why? D'oh. He does that because he doesn't trust the Government ;).

    62. Re:A sudden attack of reason by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

      You are appalled that they would consider the use of a drone to attack an American citizen if that citizen were collaborating in another Pearl Harbor or 9/11? Because that's what the actual letter says - that drones will not be used to attack American citizens (because we have a functioning legal system such that they are never beyond the reach of law enforcement here), but that in the event of extraordinary circumstances like Pearl Harbor and 9/11, the president would be advised about the legality of it.

      Frankly, I would be more worried if Holder said "Nope, if a drone were the only thing that could stop Flight 93 from reaching the White House we'd let it be destroyed."

    63. Re:A sudden attack of reason by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      This is a very good point. The recorder should not be arrested. As for the video, I don't see a problem if the police copy it and give the original card back to the recorder so an edited video, as you mentioned, isn't released with rebuttal. I know it's more complex than just those few points.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    64. Re:A sudden attack of reason by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 0

      Seriously? You think that if you refuse to go through the porn-o-scope, the President will put you on his personal kill list alongside the worst mass-murdering terrorists in the world? Your ego must be the size of a small planet.

      Get real: the people on that list are stone-cold psychopath murderers, leading cadres of stone-cold murderers, most of them trying to murder Americans. The President would be in remiss if he didn't have list of them titled "exterminate on sight." There are plenty of examples of actual executive overstep in the last 12 years to get pissed at, pick one of those.

    65. Re:A sudden attack of reason by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      The notion that the state can decide to ignore everyone's rights is disgusting. The entire concept of "martial law" is also disgusting.

      It's the psychos who are employed as police you should worry about. They are above the law and not held accountable for their actions.

    66. Re:A sudden attack of reason by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      G) A bunch of local groups that hated us (because we invaded their country forcing them to live in fear of us)

    67. Re:A sudden attack of reason by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      You are appalled that they would consider the use of a drone to attack an American citizen if that citizen were collaborating in another Pearl Harbor or 9/11? Because that's what the actual letter says - that drones will not be used to attack American citizens (because we have a functioning legal system such that they are never beyond the reach of law enforcement here), but that in the event of extraordinary circumstances like Pearl Harbor and 9/11, the president would be advised about the legality of it.

      Well that will work out fine then. Just like the tasers that are only ever used by police in their own self defence and only when the alternative is shooting someone. I mean these kinds of things would never be abused would they? Oh. Wait.

    68. Re:A sudden attack of reason by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

      Holder already stated that using a drone, on a common American Citizen, siting in a Starbucks, would be an unnecessary use of force.

      Unfortunately, an unnecessary use of force in the opinion of one AG under one set of circumstances may be considered, under other circumstances, by an FBI Special Agent in charge of an ongoing situation (and with concurrence up the chain of command) to be perfectly reasonable. I have no doubt that if the technology had been available at the time, the bodies of Randy Weaver and everyone with him would have never been found; there would have only been a giant, smoking crater where the drones landed.

      Yes, Paul was putting on a show. That doesn't change the fact that he was seeking a no-weasel-clause direct statement from the AG that there exists no authority to use drones on U.S. citizens on U.S. soil. He almost got that..but not quite. As drones become cheaper and are deployed at lower and lower levels of government (counties have them now), I have no doubt that someday in the near future some County Sheriff will lose patience with some lone nutbag in an isolated cabin armed with a rifle he knows how to use. At that point, someone will be called on to kludge together some way to attach a couple of gallons of gas and some sort of igniter to a cheap surveillance drone that will then be crashed into the roof of said isolated cabin. Hell, we've already seen the aerial bombardment of holed-up folks using helicopters in the middle of a city with predictably disastrous results.

      A drone strike on U.S. citizens on U.S. soil is, unfortunately, not a big stretch from what we've seen in the past. When it happens it will mark the beginning of a new chapter in the history of the use of force.

    69. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a problem with the police copying you camera card: it's private property. The police have no right to it. Complications: digital media can be copied easily. Compared to film media, or analogue sound recordings. Raw film would need to be developed; analogue sound takes longer and is subject to loss of quality. So, it's easy to say taking a camera card and duplicating is no big deal...but what about other issues. Self incrimination? Or you have sexy pics of your spouse on the card, all perfectly legal, and suddenly those pics are being passed around the police station and end up on the internet.
      Oh, sorry. The police wouldn't do that. They're all little angels.

      Anonymous cause I know better.

    70. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I must have missed that memo. I looked through my mail for anything with a subject called "The Presidents Personal Kill List", but I'm guessing I'm just not on that distribution."

      It's sure been in the news a lot. But really, that isn't very relevant to the point I was making: the drones have been used in ways that are very clearly in violation of treaty, U.S. law, and international law.

      Even if you leave the President completely out of it (which I am far from convinced you could validly do), the fact remains: our government has a history of using drones in a grossly illegal manner.

    71. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      President's personal kill list

      Listen to yourself!!! What makes you think it is the President? You have the Military, CIA, FBI, Pentagon, and other agencies yet to be pubicly known... These are the agencies that you should be most concerned with. The President follows orders/suggestions from these agencies, and you do not have any evidence of illegal use, war in general can be considered illegal, and that is what the use of "killer" drone strikes are currently for.

      You need to lay off the right winger BS. Should we be considered over domestic use yes, but how do you know, prior to Obama that other presidents weren't using drones domestically? I should add ignoring the President, FBI, CIA, Pentagon, ect... People act like this is something newly used, the stealth fighter was around for years and used, without anyone really knowing about it until Desert Storm, when the military, decided to announce to the world what they had. How many times was it used "illegally" prior to a war, to take out Presidents "Hit Lists"? And people said the same thing over it being used domestically.

      And we have yet to talk about any other weapons either already being used, or being developed that can be deployed and used to carry out hits or strikes...

    72. Re:A sudden attack of reason by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Seriously? You think that if you refuse to go through the porn-o-scope, the President will put you on his personal kill list alongside the worst mass-murdering terrorists in the world?

      Which comment did you read?

      Get real: the people on that list are stone-cold psychopath murderers, leading cadres of stone-cold murderers, most of them trying to murder Americans.

      Oh, it seems you've read the list. Would you care to give me a link to it?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    73. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 0

      "Any President who used a drone on innocent civilians without an overwhelming need to protect thousands more, would be impeached, and likely thrown in prison."

      Hahaha. Then why hasn't Obama been impeached? This is irrefutable: the way the Obama administration has used drones to kill individuals is [A] against U.S. law (no due process), [B] a violation of treaty (Geneva Convention is just one of them), [C] a violation of international law (drone strikes on individuals do not qualify as "acts of war").

      As for the rest, I just have to say, looks like a big "WHOOSH!" to me... you don't seem to be getting the point. OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN USING DRONES ILLEGALLY. Regardless of whether YOU think it's justified, it has been done in violation of law. So tell me again: why should citizens expect the government to suddenly start using them legally?

    74. Re:A sudden attack of reason by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      In the case of Anwar al Awlaki, YouTube made it really easy from him to out himself as such too.

      The whole Eric Holder thing is just ridiculous.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    75. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see a problem if the police copy it

      I see a problem. It is my video. I recorded it, I am the copyright holder. If I choose to protect my copyright by not sharing it with the police then so be it. They cannot force me.

      If they want the video they can subpoena it in court or get a warrant to access it.

      On a more sarcastic note, if they police illegally violated my copyright then am I allowed to sue them for US GDP * 1000000 - it seems the MAFIAA is allowed to, why shouldn't I be

    76. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The nation has always had a top list of most wanted, and dead or alive for a terrorist isn't a problem [...]. They don't stop and try to take these folks into custody. If someone has declared them intentions and is clearly in collusion with a terrorist cell, then they have forfeited their rights as a citizen, and have declared themselves an enemy of the state.

      Police will already shoot and kill an armed and dangerous person if they pull a weapon and the officer fears for his life [...]

      Yeah, way to go: mixing self-defense situations with some fuzzy form of death penalty bypassing all due process.

      You, Sir, are an idiot. Or you have some obscure agenda I don't grasp (and won't try to).

    77. Re:A sudden attack of reason by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      So you didn't read what Holder wrote? It's a pretty short letter with small words. I'm sure you can understand it.

      And I'm sure he trusts Holder's statement about drones just as thoroughly as you trusted Dick Cheney's statements about Haliburton, and for many of the same reasons.

      I'm sure you can understand that.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    78. Re:A sudden attack of reason by nbauman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While it is true that an idiot with a camera can manipulate footage for his own gain http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/07/local/la-me-0308-acorn-20130308 it's also true that lawyers know how to investigate criminal incidents and can often expose the manipulation. For example, a defense lawyer who deals with that stuff all the time said, the first thing you do is look at the whole unedited tape. If the Obama administration had done that with James O'Keefe's attack on ACORN, O'Keefe wouldn't have been able to get away with his lies. Under US law, BTW, if there is an investigation into a crime, a judge can subpoena the entire video. That applies even to journalists, as well as to fake journalists like O'Keefe, and to bystanders who record it on cellphones.

      After an assault or a police confrontation, when different witnesses tell different stories, it's hard to reconstruct the facts. If you have a video of the incident, even part of the incident, that gives you some objective, reliable information to work with. Everybody knows that the video is just part of the story. The video doesn't testify by itself in court. Lawyers have to interview the photographer, consider the circumstances of the recording, and treat the video like any other piece of evidence. If you show a video of the cops beating up a suspect, the cops' lawyers have the right to give their version of what went on before that.

      The more evidence you have, the more likely you are to figure out the truth.

      When I look at the history of videos of police encounters in the last few years, I see a lot of incidents where the cops blatantly violated the law, committed assaults against innocent people, and committed perjury to cover it up. The videos at least got the false charges thrown out (although very seldom were the cops fired or prosecuted). Overall, the effect of videos has been good.

      Everybody who dealt with the cops knew for years that this was going on. Videos are making it easier to prove it. Cities are going to get hit with $500,000 lawsuits like Manny Garcia is bringing. The experience has been that they just settle, don't punish the cops, and don't reform their practices. But maybe if they lose a few millions of dollars in lawsuits, and their taxpayers find their real estate taxes are doubling to pay for it, they'll start to pay attention.

    79. Re:A sudden attack of reason by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      "Yo Sean, the administration really likes reggaeton and dancehall. Congrats on your last LP!".

    80. Re:A sudden attack of reason by nbauman · · Score: 1

      If you arrest somebody with a pistol, you don't have to kill him. You can take him into custody.

      I can't imagine how you could take someone into custody with a drone.

    81. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

      1) The police should have a video recorder on their person which they cannot open or alter. Preferably it should stream to an eternal server whenever a connection is available.
      2) Any filming by individuals can be compared against that footage.

      Watch "Don't talk to the police" on Youtube.
      In it, a defense attorney and a policemen will both tell you that.
      1) what you say "can and will be used against you" but legally can't be used for you.
      2) it's only the policeman's memory of what happened which counts.
      3) if you are taken into the police station, you should have an attorney.
      4) the police are legally allowed to lie to suspects and they do lie.
      5) if a policeman says they are trying to help you, get a lawyer.
      6) Just about ANY direct statement can be turned into a legal case against you. Even if you are innocent.
      7) you may be smarter than one policeman but you are not smarter than a roomful of policemen and they have a lot more experience in the situation than you do.

      Police have a job. Maintain order, build prosecutable cases, and write tickets to gather revenue.

      All this said, you should donate to the policeman survivors fund (I do) but also be aware there are a dozen other professions who die at a higher rate than they do (including farmers, alaskan fisherman, and coal miners).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    82. Re:A sudden attack of reason by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Police will already shoot and kill an armed and dangerous person if they pull a weapon and the officer fears for his life.

      The police routinely kill unarmed people who are a danger to nobody and get away with it. Nobody is saying it isn't allowed by the system, they are just saying it's wrong.

    83. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most obvious problem is that the cop is just as likely to edit the video as the recorder.
      It would be better if the cops filmed all their interactions but also allowed others to do so.
      In cases where the cop altered his video other sources can provide information of what actually happened and in cases where other sources shows illegal behaviour from the cop the cops video can show what actually happened.

      In cases where both videos are edited, arrest both the cop and the recorder for tampering with evidence.

    84. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you in turn treat your neighbors and passerby's as potential 'terrorists'. Do you lock your house at night? If so, why? it's a simple precaution, but it restricts your freedoms, yet you do it.

      Your writings in this thread have had a hint of the absurd about them, but right there you went off the kray-kray kliff.

      (a) Locking your own door does not "restrict your freedoms" because you can unlock it any time you want to.
      (b) Locking your own door does not restrict anyone else's freedoms - they weren't 'free' to enter your house in the first place because your house is not open to the public.

      Both of these basic facts [i]should[/i] be self-evident. That you even brought it up, much less made it your leading point, means your reality is not the same reality that most people live in.

    85. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly enough, the same is true regarding drone attacks. A large majority support them. People understand the realities of todays terrorists, the risks, and potential casualties a terrorist can inflict.

      At least one expert vehemently disagrees with you. Retired General Stanley McChrystal had this to say about what the general public knows about drones:

      "The resentment created by American use of unmanned strikes ... is much greater than the average American appreciates. They are hated on a visceral level, even by people who've never seen one or seen the effects of one."

    86. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You show a serious lack of understanding of the Geneva Convention. Terrorists are not party to the convention, and the convention actually has a 4 part test to validate if it applies. Terrorist fail this test. They are not granted POW status either as they fail the requirements for it.

      What specific international law or U.S. law has been violated?

    87. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? ALL the evidence points to drones being used illegally? Odd, last time I checked, the use of drones hasn't been demonstrated to be illegal even once, let alone all the time. As far as I can tell, the "real evidence" you are talking about consists entirely of speculation rather than evidence. Indeed, to the extent that the use of drones has been challenged legally, so far it has been universally upheld. Apparently your understanding of the word "evidence" is somewhat weak.

      I also have to question your grasp of logic. Again - the drone is just a piece of technology like a car. To suggest that because it is used in a certain way in a certain set of circumstances means that it will always be used that way in all circumstances is just dumb. The circumstances of drone use in the mountains of Pakistan are completely different than any possible scenario in the US in which drones might be used. Indeed, the use of drones is so extensive there specifically because there are few other options in many of those regions.

      But even if drone use was universally acknowledged to be criminal, it's still just a weapon. If the US government wants to murder an American citizen in the US, what do you think is more likely? That they'll use a robotic drone and a missile (a fairly conspicuous weapon with only one possible source in the US) or that they'll send someone around to double tap the target with a generic, throw away handgun?

      The focus on the technology is ridiculous. As I said - if you're afraid that your government is going to start murdering you, the technology they use to do so is kind of irrelevant. They could murder you right now, considerably more easily, more cheaply and more clandestinely than they ever could with a drone.

    88. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you think im gonna trust that guy?

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    89. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you'd think that, except for the whole whitepaper detailing the legal reasoning for killing someone, however bad he may have been, who also happened to be an American citizen. and nothing in the language of that justification makes it an "overseas" only mechanism of denying due process.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    90. Re:A sudden attack of reason by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      The problem is that an idiot with a camera can manipulate the footage for their own gains. This happened in Australia just recently where a fairly violent arrest was made at the Mardi Gras after a guy 'groped' a stranger (whether it was sexual assault or not is for the courts to decide). The video released initially showed the cops in a very bad light - seeming unprovoked brutality, throwing him to the ground etc. Video and feedback that came out later showed that the cops started by trying to talk to the guy, who then realised he could actually be in a bit of trouble and became very violent, and while it may be that the police used 'excessive force' during the arrest, measuring the exact amount of force required is a very difficult thing to do so I don't really see that there is much of a problem. So go ahead and film whatever you want, but if you release the video you should be held to the same level of accountability as journalists (which unfortunately these days isn't very high...)

      Forget the journalist standards. Just hold people to the same standard for libel/defamation, whether it be written or deceptively presented video recordings. Video recordings made out of context are similar to quote mining. Presenting a video where it can reasonably be determined that the intention is to deceive should be no different to taking the quote "I love seeing child porn users being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law" being presented without the emboldened text with a reasonably understood attempt to defame the originator of the quote.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    91. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dywolf · · Score: 1

      a person who constitutes an active threat, yes.

      however the thing they came up with is the equivalent of:
      -the cop's going to a known criminal's house
      -not arresting him
      -not bringing him to trial
      -but just yanking him out of bed and executing him on the spot

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    92. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the difference is the presence of an imminent threat.
      no one expects them to wait and have a trial for some who poses an imminent threat.

      the worry however is the fact that drones (and the drone part really doesnt matter...any weapon could be substituted) have already been used for extra judicial killings of individuals who do not pose an immediate, imminent threat.

      were they bad dudes? yes.
      terrorists? yes.
      enemy combatant? definitely qualifies.
      American citizen? Ya, he was that too. and that is the scary part, because they felt they needed to create a legal justification due to that.

      they didnt class these things as military operations, part of a combat operation.
      they classed them as the targeted, intentional, killing of an american citizen, who also happened to be a terrorist.

      im fine with getting the terrorists. if they had just left it as that, and just done it, i think most people would understand the reasoning behind it. he really was a terrorist.

      but they didnt. now the genie is out of the bottle. the legal justification exists. and that is the scary part.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    93. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So now the guy "groped" a stranger? He tickled a woman at a street parade; hardly a capital offense.
      You make it sound like he penetrated her.

      The problem is that an idiot with a camera can manipulate the footage for their own gains.

      It seems idiots can also manipulate news stories for their own gains.

    94. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because the size of the various security services means only a handful of people could ever be juggled on the kill list.

    95. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dywolf · · Score: 1

      add to myself:
      quote: "If someone has declared them intentions and is clearly in collusion with a terrorist cell, then they have forfeited their rights as a citizen, and have declared themselves an enemy of the state"

      fortunately for American citizens, that isnt the way it works. this line of reasoning is an extension of the flawed "if you have nothing to hide" reasoning. and its just plain stupid and wrong. rights exist explicitly to protect everyone. innocent and criminal.

      your actions fundamentally CANNOT forfeit your rights as a citizen. that is most definitely the single most dangerous line of reasoning in existence. to even renounce your citizenship requires TWO verbal statements, at two different times, in front of a judge, AND a written declaration of the same. no external person or agency has the right or power to determine that you have forfeited your rights. that way lies tyranny, in case you didnt know.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    96. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was pretty vigorously resisting arrest, including aiming kicks at head height. That doesn't in itself justify slamming him to the ground - that was excessive. They had him cuffed. What they needed was to keep on the ground, which they had him originally before he got up and ended up being violently hurled to the ground.

      There's definitely a need for disciplinary action here, with the proviso that Jackson in extended footage is clearly going out of control before the police cross the line.

    97. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 1

      Get real: the people on that list are stone-cold psychopath murderers, leading cadres of stone-cold murderers, most of them trying to murder Americans. The President would be in remiss if he didn't have list of them titled "exterminate on sight."

      Yeah, just like this guy, right?

      Which is only /one/ of the problems with this sort of list.

      And frankly, outside of military action - which this is definitely /not/ - the idea of "exterminate on sight" sickens me. It should be "arrest and then presented to a full jury to determine his guilt in a speedy trial on sight".

      Because otherwise we have abrogated a significant fraction of the citizen's power to nameless authority which has no oversight.

      Even the most villainous deserves a chance to plead his case. That's what rule by law is all about.

    98. Re: A sudden attack of reason by Urza9814 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. First of all, prior to Paul's filibuster, the official policy of the administration on killing us citizens on us soil was that it was perfectly legal and hypothetically possible. No further conditions on that. At least now they've narrowed it down to people engaged in "combat"...though we have no way of knowing how broadly that is defined, so in a practical sense it doesn't change much.

      The real issue though is that Paul did not go far enough. Done strikes are just as unconstitutional in Pakistan as they would be in Minnesota. The Bill of Rights is not some list of privileges given to us by the government. It is a list of rights, inherent to all human beings, that the government may not violate. Doesn't matter if they're inside our outside of our borders, and it doesn't matter if they're citizens. If we haven't declared war, we're required to give the accused a trial. It's that simple. There's no declaration of war against Pakistan, for just one example, so we can't legally use drones there.

    99. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This happens in more places than Washinton, DC. If you follow a lot of news sources, you will find this is a regular occurrence in the USA. This is an assault, whether co-ordinated or not, against the rights and sensibilities of USA citizens and people. The Police are becoming the enemy of law-abiding citizen and, from what I have seen, the Police don't seem to care.

    100. Re:A sudden attack of reason by redwraith94 · · Score: 1

      It isn't just spying that is at issue. At least with ground combat, and small arms fire an individual would have a reasonable chance of protecting themselves from abuses of force by the government, or any other entity. With drones that carry anti-vehicle weaponry, and can deliver that ordinance from the air at stand off ranges. There isn't any reasonable chance to protect oneself. To my mind this is akin to allowing Law Enforcement Officers to utilize mortars, or missiles in the use of deadly force. Can you imagine a high speed chase ended via a surface to surface missile, or an abandoned structure razed to the ground via artillery to get rid of a meth lab? If we allow the use of deadly force on U.S. soil via drones then that isn't far off either. At least overseas in the context of actual combat against an actually well-defined enemy they are to me a somewhat worrisome additional military tool. The reason they are worrisome is because of bureaucratic nonsense like this..."Yeah, let's use them at home since they work so well overseas!"...

      --
      I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
    101. Re:A sudden attack of reason by redwraith94 · · Score: 1

      Robots can be hacked. They also present a great disparity in power. They also have no soul; they didn't swear an oath to uphold, and defend this country, it's constitution, or it's people. For the use of deadly force on U.S. soil, give me a human to make that decision anyday. Geez, folks...I'm so sorry that robot killed your whole family...it was just this darn BSOD! We'll make it up to, we'll cover your funeral costs!

      --
      I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
    102. Re:A sudden attack of reason by redwraith94 · · Score: 1

      You do realize that blowing up a terrorist who has a dirty bomb, is literally the same thing as setting off said dirty bomb early?

      --
      I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
    103. Re:A sudden attack of reason by x24 · · Score: 1

      All this said, you should donate to the policeman survivors fund (I do) but also be aware there are a dozen other professions who die at a higher rate than they do (including farmers, alaskan fisherman, and coal miners).

      Or garbage men, truck drivers, pizza delivery boys...

      Cops like people to think they have a dangerous job because it gets them a lot of sympathy, but the most dangerous part of their job is driving around all day.

    104. Re:A sudden attack of reason by dryeo · · Score: 1

      And some of those people shot were just going through their own damaged house looking for personal possessions. That's the problem of giving the military orders to shoot looters, they're just as likely to shoot innocents.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    105. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember Clinton using missiles against terrorist camps (in Libya I think?) and also using such a strike to try to take out Osama Bin Laden. You can say "It's overreach", but what makes it so? Those were often in the middle of a desert.

    106. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not with a missile? What different does it make if a government agent shots at someone with a handgun, rifle, sniper rifle, or missile?

    107. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "You show a serious lack of understanding of the Geneva Convention..."

      *I* show a lack of understanding? Hahaha.

      The Geneva Convention (there were actually more than one, but the term is generally used to mean the sum result of them) also defines things that countries CAN do as acts of war. For just one example, nerve and caustic gases are prohibited.

      It doesn't matter whether the "enemy" is a terrorist, or Nazis, or Joe Blow down the street. Signatory countries may not do these things as an "act of war".

      Look it up. Then come back to me and we'll see who was short of understanding.

    108. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      apply it to a suspected terrorist with a dirty bomb.

      So close yet so far. The word suspected is part of the key. Remember the guy who was accused by the government of having a "dirty bomb" plot? Arrested, held for years without trial or charge and then charged with something else as there was no dirty bomb plot. Killing based on suspicion alone and without due process is unconstitutional.

    109. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      When even that bastion of conservative outrage, The Huffington Post

      HuffPo has been a bastion of exaggerated sensationalism since before AOL bought them, and much worse since.

      The fact that they don't have the consistent ideological bent of, say, Fox News or Mother Jones doesn't make them reliable.

    110. Re:A sudden attack of reason by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      But really, that isn't very relevant to the point I was making: the drones have been used in ways that are very clearly in violation of treaty, U.S. law, and international law.

      Please cite the clear facts (not supposition) and specific provisions of treaty, U.S. law, and international law justifying this claim.

    111. Re: A sudden attack of reason by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      The laws weren't written to deal with non-state armies operating across international borders.

      Really, step 1 is setting down some reasonable guidelines on how to deal with declaring war on some group that isn't a nation-state.

    112. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quite true and the only reason they are used in strikes behind the borders of countries like pakistan is that losing a drone does not likely give the enemy a member of your society for them to parade in the streets and show to the national media, I cannot understand why people are so idiotic about unmanned combat aerial vehicles, a shotgun blast will kill you just as indiscriminately as a Hellfire missile but each shotgun shell is a lot cheaper and a lot more plentiful

    113. Re:A sudden attack of reason by LienRag · · Score: 1

      Your hypothesises are quite far-fetched...
      Remember how UK froze Icelandic assets by using an anti-terrorist law?

    114. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I must have missed that memo... If someone has declared them intentions and is clearly in collusion with a terrorist cell, then they have forfeited their rights as a citizen.

      I must have missed that constitutional amendment.

    115. Re:A sudden attack of reason by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      That's actually completely true.

      Automobile accidents comprise half to slightly over half the police deaths.

      Part of that has to be putting in douple to triple the miles the rest of us do.

      Some of it is driving ways the rest of us don't.

      And some of it is has to be driving recklessly (because I've seen it).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    116. Re: A sudden attack of reason by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      They are operating within nations, it is those nations' responsibility to police them. If they can't and want our help, that's fine, we can do that. If they refuse to do anything about it, their citizens are engaged in acts of war and we have every right to declare war in response.

    117. Re: A sudden attack of reason by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      By your logic, half of the middle east and Africa have engaged in acts of war against America.

      I sincerely suggest against prosecuting a conventional war against them, or this will be a world war in more than an academic sense.

    118. Re: A sudden attack of reason by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Well, as I said, war isn't the only choice...but legally we only have three valid options -- war, diplomacy, or leave them alone until they reach our shores. Dropping bombs on and murdering the citizens of another soverign nation without their consent _is an act of war_...so we've already chosen war, we've just decided that it looks better if we don't formally declare it, and we're strong enough that nobody fights back. But that is a decision that is neither moral nor legal.

    119. Re:A sudden attack of reason by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between a dozen or so in 8 years (Clinton), and over 4000 in 4 years time (Obama)... Obama's count exceeds Reagan + Bush Sr + Clinton + GWB combined... in 1 term.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  2. The card was never returned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When a lowly citizen destroys evidence, it's a crime.

    1. Re:The card was never returned. by evanism · · Score: 2

      Ah, but the government can destroy its own citizens and it is not.

      An interesting thing, no?

      We think we have progressed so far, only to find we are rally 2 steps behind.

      --
      Just bought a new quantum computer, but I'm uncertain how it works.
    2. Re:The card was never returned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When a lowly citizen kidnaps and beats a reporter, strong-arm robs them of an expensive camera, and then commits perjury by accusing them of a crime in open court, then that lowly citizen goes away for a VERY VERY long time.

    3. Re:The card was never returned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christopher R Malouf
      12505 Hawks Nest Ln
      Germantown, MD 20876-5999

      Related to Megan J Malouf (nee Duffey)

      Feel free to mail shit, sign him up for shit or harass him.

  3. Hmmm. by boarder8925 · · Score: 2

    Considering the administration's attacks on whistleblowers, irony abounds.

    1. Re:Hmmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, completely different thing.

  4. Support? by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Support is not writing a brief. Support is indicting the officers in question for Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law. These officers deserve the same treatment Obama's DOJ gave Aaron Swartz.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Support? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deprivation-rights-under-color-law/XRnkSqtc

    2. Re:Support? by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      That's so cute. :)

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    3. Re:Support? by LordNimon · · Score: 1

      Only 99,996 more votes needed!

      --
      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    4. Re:Support? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That law is for discrimination or hate crimes (e.g. arresting somebody for DWB [driving while black] or killing an illegal alien). This is just a reguar old false arrest case. It's actionable, certainly, under federal law, but it's a civil case. I don't see how it's criminal.

      dom

  5. Cops Are Never Held Accountable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, if it's anything like the Alex Landau case, there won't be any charges against the police.

    1. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      we need a system that treats INCIDENTS as a whole and not "crimes". The charges were grievously wrong, as was the action of the police. In the course of dragging the person into court, the judge should be able to COMPEL the state's lawyers to file criminal charges against the police, and as officers of his court, compel the state's lawyers to do their best or face disbarment.

      This is a case where it sounds fair to prosecute each person individually, but an increasing number of cases have prosecution giving rats favorable settlements while using bought testimony against the person least able to defend. In cases like this, the prosecution is only "filing charges" to prevent the defendant from filing abuse charges on his own.

      I also think we need to bring back public whipping and a few other things. the punishment for these police needs to fit the crime, in this case PUNISHMENT is in order... seven lashes with a seven-corded whip would fix them right up. Right out on the court steps where everybody can see it.

    2. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Lashes wouldn't cut it when the police inflict head injuries, which they have a fondness for doing. And the charges filed to prevent charges from being filed against your officer for brutality, civil rights violations etc are commonly known as "cover charges".

      The strategy generally works perfectly too. As long as the charges are serious enough. The charges against me completely prevented me from suing them, which I probably would have done otherwise. The cops know that they can beat and even kill people with impunity.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    3. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by cffrost · · Score: 1

      I also think we need to bring back public whipping and a few other things. the punishment for these police needs to fit the crime, in this case PUNISHMENT is in order... seven lashes with a seven-corded whip would fix them right up. Right out on the court steps where everybody can see it.

      Reducing civil rights abuses by violating additional civil rights seems really foolish to me — and in the case of your suggestion, would mean and a complete abandonment of our rights under the Eight Amendment.

      The difficulty with charging and convicting cops who behave like animals is a separate issue which needs to be seriously addressed, albeit in a manner that complies with the US Constitution.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    4. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by nbauman · · Score: 1
    5. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difficulty with charging and convicting cops who behave like animals is a separate issue which needs to be seriously addressed, albeit in a manner that complies with the US Constitution.

      It could be done. But most likely, you would need an entirely separate system. Investigators for police and D A s who do not rotate back to the police, and a separate prosecution staff. It would be expensive, and reduce the efficiency of the police and courts drastically.

      As far as beatings violating civil rights, you are correct, although I suspect many police officers, given the choice between a beating and incarceration in a prison population under the offense of police brutality might take the beating.

    6. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The strategy generally works perfectly too. As long as the charges are serious enough. The charges against me completely prevented me from suing them, which I probably would have done otherwise. The cops know that they can beat and even kill people with impunity.

      How do the charges against someone prevent them from suing?

    7. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Well what happened to me was that I was facing up to several years in jail and a very expensive court case that I really couldn't afford. I mean in the sense that I would have actually had to borrow half a year's income in order to go to trial. There were no human witnesses. It was my word against one or more cops. Juries tend to believe cops over suspects and don't like to believe that cops are running around beating people up and then filing false charges against the victim. That doesn't make people feel very safe or good about their country. When people really don't want to believe something very often they don't.

      So I figured that I had no more than a 50% chance of winning a jury trial (and a 0% chance of winning a bench trial because judges always side with cops) and if convicted I was facing enough time in jail that, for me, suicide would be far preferable. And in fact I was planning to kill myself in jail if convicted. So when the prosecutor offered me a deal without even a day of jail time and only 3 months probation I took it even though I had to lie to the judge and admit to doing what I did not do. Because I was forced to agree to the prosecution's bullshit story I was not able to file any lawsuits afterward. The whole point of the cover charges was to get that result. On the one hand you have the potential for a lawsuit and some justice if you win. On the other you have a 50% chance of death or something even worse than death. What is the rational choice? I still feel guilty about committing perjury and lying directly to that judge about what happened, but I'm neither in prison nor dead.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    8. Re:Cops Are Never Held Accountable by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've seen people plead "no contest" (or Nolo contendere) with the same effect as a guilty plea, but without having to affirmatively claim they actually did it. I've done it before, then appealed and won on appeal. The issue was the lower court would have been a certain conviction, and overturning it is much harder. Going into appeals and claiming you just wanted a fair hearing works sometimes. But that might not have been available in your area, or not an option for the plea they offered you. The real joke is that the conviction rate of innocent people is about 50%. Nobody ever looks at those figures. They've gotten to about that on death row. about half have been exonerated, a surprisingly large number posthumously. I liked the Chicago Law Review article I read where the law professor claimed pleas were torture (threats to coerce action).

      In traditional prisoner's dilemma style, it's better for everyone else if you don't plea, but likely better for you if you do. But the system is set up that way, not to bring justice, but to justify itself.

  6. Enough is enough! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The officers should be charged with theft and assault. They should also be fired.

    1. Re:Enough is enough! by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      im more for striped naked and caged right out in the open for their stay in the county jail.... where all the other inmates can taunt them, but not quite touch them. maybe be generous and offer them a rope to hang themselves for disappointing society.

    2. Re:Enough is enough! by Virtucon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, since the DOJ is involved, I'd make it a Federal Civil rights abuse case as well against the officers. The police in this nation have become more like paramilitary thugs in most places. Here's just a recent more pointed example. They do have a difficult job to do and yes, there's nearly a 100% chance that every time they arrest somebody or go about conducting their business, they'll be recorded by a phone or some other device. They just need to get used to it and do their job and stop abusing the public!

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    3. Re:Enough is enough! by Grayhand · · Score: 1

      The officers should be charged with theft and assault. They should also be fired.

      How often are the police held accountable for anything they do? In LA during the Rampart scandal out of the dozens named none were fired or charged except the whistle blower. He was fired and threatened. I saw video tape of a cop in LA slamming an unconscious kid against the hood of a car. He was beaten unconscious before the camera was turned on then woke up when he was slammed against the car. No charges were filed but they did arrest the guy filming it. There have been numerous cases of unarmed people shot to death by the police for misdemeanors. I can name dozes of cases personally but trying to think of one where a police officer was held accountable for his actions is difficult.

    4. Re:Enough is enough! by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Well, since the DOJ is involved, I'd make it a Federal Civil rights abuse case as well against the officers. The police in this nation have become more like paramilitary thugs in most places. Here's just a recent more pointed example. They do have a difficult job to do and yes, there's nearly a 100% chance that every time they arrest somebody or go about conducting their business, they'll be recorded by a phone or some other device. They just need to get used to it and do their job and stop abusing the public!

      "Wow, three ridiculous demands!" said the police officer...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    5. Re:Enough is enough! by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I agree.

      It's not just that he was arrested for something that wasn't a crime. It's disturbing that anyone even thought it could be. It suggests an attitude from the police that they can arbitrarily make the law and use it to harass people.

      There's clear public interest in people being allowed and encouraged to film the police (as your link showed). And if someone is arrested,even if all charges are dismissed, that's a discouragement.

    6. Re:Enough is enough! by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      The officers should be charged with theft and assault. They should also be fired.

      There is nobody to do the charging. Police are above the law because they lie to cover each others misdeeds.

      Police are terrified of video cameras because they can't lie their way around video evidence. If someone else recorded this whole incident there would be evidence that would hold up in court.

    7. Re:Enough is enough! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not theft when you take something with force or using the threat of force. Then it's called robbery.

  7. Slashdotters . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When someone in teh eevil gummint does something good, they scramble all over to yell out things that teh eevil gummint has done bad.

  8. It's better, it's not just "journalists" by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The brief explicitly says "the First Amendment right to record police officers performing public duties extends to both the public and members of the media, and the Court should not make a distinction between the publicâ(TM)s and the mediaâ(TM)s rights to record here".

    This is all very strange. Hang on, is it Opposite Day?

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:It's better, it's not just "journalists" by Rogerborg · · Score: 2

      Followup note to myself: be sure to cite this sudden passion for exercising First Amendment rights on public streets the next time police force protesters into "Free Speech Zone" cages.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:It's better, it's not just "journalists" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free Speech Zones are about keeping you from trespassing on someone else's event or TV show.

    3. Re:It's better, it's not just "journalists" by Cwix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Free speech zones are for stifling protesters.

      In direct contradiction to the right to free speech.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    4. Re:It's better, it's not just "journalists" by jamesh · · Score: 1

      The brief explicitly says "the First Amendment right to record police officers performing public duties extends to both the public and members of the media, and the Court should not make a distinction between the publicâ(TM)s and the mediaâ(TM)s rights to record here".

      This is all very strange. Hang on, is it Opposite Day?

      It's NOT opposite day.

    5. Re:It's better, it's not just "journalists" by nbauman · · Score: 1

      That Free Speech Zone cage was at the Democratic Convention in Boston.

      So I don't count on the Democrats to uphold my constitutional rights.

  9. Reporter Arrested for recording cops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK,so what's illegal about this.It is not illegal to record cops,it is legal to do so.If this guy has any sense h will file a law suit against them

    1. Re:Reporter Arrested for recording cops by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but you can only file a lawsuit for MONEY... you can't file a lawsuit say to compel the court to disolve their marriages and send their kids to CPS. You can't file a lawsuit to have them striped naked and paraded through prison for a week.... I'd even settle for a 7x7 whipping on the courthouse steps.

      THOSE are the kinds of things that need to happen to stop these abuses.... hurtful, spiteful, public punishments.

    2. Re:Reporter Arrested for recording cops by tonywong · · Score: 1

      You might still be able to file a private prosecution depending on where you are in the US (or the world).
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#United_States

    3. Re:Reporter Arrested for recording cops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you decide they're terrorists you can send a drone to kill them.

  10. prohibits arresting just journalists? by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    why are they a special class? and how to tell the difference? do blogs count?

    1. Re:prohibits arresting just journalists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In Lovell v. City of Griffin, Chief Justice Hughes defined the press as, "every sort of publication which affords a vehicle of information and opinion."

      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=303&invol=444

    2. Re:prohibits arresting just journalists? by CncRobot · · Score: 1

      Because the equal protections under the law is in the Constitution under amendment 14. Therefore they can ignore it just like they do the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 10th amendments, amongst others.

      Its for your own good, so stop asking questions.

    3. Re:prohibits arresting just journalists? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So, as a poster to Slashdot, I'm a member of the Press?

  11. Re:Slashdotters . by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    Well, it is newsworthy that this happened...

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  12. Jail for physical assault by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

    Malouf should be in prison for a number of reasons including armed robbery and battery.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  13. Video card? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Video card? What's a video card? Do they mean an SD card?

    1. Re:Video card? by Jaysyn · · Score: 0

      No, he has a GTX 560 in his fucking Nikon you moron.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
  14. "Journalists" by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    They want to support the "journalists" other wise it would mean "everyone" this way they can come back and arrest/prosecute non journalists.
    Maybe someone should start a society of citizen journalists and let anyone join so everyone can be a journalist.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  15. The Communist Bastard by fermion · · Score: 2

    How dare he give the populous the right to monitor the police state.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  16. Defending Rights Enumerated In The Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Re: the Obama Justice Dept. Even a blind squirrel gets a nut now and then.

  17. Yeah, we support you.... by nortcele · · Score: 1

    Because if we decide we don't support you, our drones leave no evidence but a vapor trail.

  18. There should be apps for that by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Which is why if you are going to record the police, make sure it's uploading live or will e-mail the pictures away from the clumsy hands of the law

    There's this app for New Yorkers evidently. Any suggestions from anyone for those of us who don't live in NY?

    1. Re:There should be apps for that by n3r0.m4dski11z · · Score: 1

      " Any suggestions from anyone for those of us who don't live in NY?"

      Perhaps an eye fi to some sort of public hotspot, say at the donuts shop? works with most sd card cameras.

      --
      -
    2. Re:There should be apps for that by trawg · · Score: 1

      The Skype guys have a mobile app called Qik Video that does this; I have it on my Android phone for situations like this.

    3. Re:There should be apps for that by houghi · · Score: 1

      Defending your rights? There's an app for that!

      How bad is the state of the country if you NEED such an app. And still you are not willing to use your second amendment?

      I feel sorry for students from 500 years in the future who have to write a thesis on how the people allowed things to go so bad. I feel sorry for the teacher who has to answer the question "But wasn't there a democratic process?" And I wonder what the answer will be when it is asked why the rest of the world just looked on and watched.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    4. Re:There should be apps for that by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Which is why if you are going to record the police, make sure it's uploading live or will e-mail the pictures away from the clumsy hands of the law

      Right, we need to pay for cellphone internet access to ensure our rights. Wait, what?

      Here's what I would consider support for this photographer: provide criminal penalties for cops who seize cameras from citizens when the camera is not related to their commission of a crime.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:There should be apps for that by indytx · · Score: 1

      There's this app for New Yorkers evidently. Any suggestions from anyone for those of us who don't live in NY?

      Cop Tape

      --
      Make love, not reality television.
    6. Re:There should be apps for that by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      Any suggestions from anyone for those of us who don't live in NY?

      Bambuser lets you stream video from your smartphone.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    7. Re:There should be apps for that by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      You're describing an optimistic plan to safeguard your rights, I'm describing a more realistic (or cynical if you prefer) plan. And they're not mutually exclusive.

      The old saying "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" comes to mind. Yes, we should not need to go to such lengths to prevent cops from stealing and destroying evidence against them. Yes, we should pass laws to enforce that. But, we do, because they do, and reasonable laws governing police misconduct, I'm not going to hold my breath. In the meantime, if I see police behavior that needs to be documented, I'm going to use a method to ensure they can't suppress that evidence and get away with it.

  19. DOJ explicitly rejects the "just journalists" line by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Informative

    TFS is (and so is TFA) misleading when it says that the government argues that the Constitution "prohibits police officers from arresting journalists for exercising those rights", as the actual brief filed by the Justice Department explicitly argues (heck, its a bolded section heading) that "Members of the Public and the Media Are Both Entitled to Protection Under the First Amendment", and, more specifically, "The First Amendment protections afforded members of the public and press when recording public police activity are coextensive" and "Although Mr. Garcia alleges facts here that show that he is a member of the press, this makes no difference to the analysis under the First Amendment",and "Courts have long held that recordings made by private citizens of police conduct or other items of public interest are entitled to First Amendment protection".

    The DoJ isn't arguing that police can't arrest journalists from recording police activity, the DoJ is arguing that "that both the First and Fourth Amendments protect an individual who peacefully photographs police activity on a public street", and that "core First Amendment conduct, such as recording a police officer performing duties on a public street, cannot be the sole basis" for discretionary charges such as disturbing the peace, etc., and, finally, that "the First Amendment right to record police officers performing public duties extends to both the public and members of the media" without distinction.

  20. April 1st already?!? by PRMan · · Score: 1

    Is this 2 good rulings out of the Obama administration in a single day? Is it April Fools' Day already?

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    1. Re:April 1st already?!? by Megane · · Score: 1

      A stopped clock is right twice a day.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  21. Officer should be unemployed. by Cogent91 · · Score: 1

    Society will be a lot better off the day we stop humoring authority figures abusing their power. It shouldn't even be a question that the Officer should lose his job, yet I bet he's still getting a paycheck for something he's clearly unsuitable for. Terrible thing.

    1. Re:Officer should be unemployed. by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      The problem is that police unions in many States have commissions empowered to overturn even a completely legitimate termination of an officer's employment, and they frequently do so.

      My city and county have each had an officer re-instated following a justified termination (one for lying, impeding an investigation, and conduct unbecoming, and the other for public exposure) in the last three years.

    2. Re:Officer should be unemployed. by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Society will be a lot better off the day we stop humoring authority figures abusing their power. It shouldn't even be a question that the Officer should lose his job, yet I bet he's still getting a paycheck for something he's clearly unsuitable for. Terrible thing.

      If you commited assult and robbery against an innocent when you should have been performing your job getting fired should be the least of your problems.

      The police need to be held accountable for their actions in a court of law because if they are not civil war is going to break out sooner or later. Video recording police should not only be legal it should be encouraged.

  22. Google Glass by Threni · · Score: 1

    That's one problem Google Glass will sort out - none of this `you can't film here` crap. I'll film wherever the hell I like, officer.

    1. Re:Google Glass by Grashnak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's one problem Google Glass will sort out - none of this `you can't film here` crap. I'll film wherever the hell I like, officer.

      So your theory is that cops who are willing to beat you up and take your camera will be unwilling to beat you up and take your geek glasses?

      --
      Life needs more saving throws.
    2. Re:Google Glass by SternisheFan · · Score: 3, Informative
      Since google glasses stream, or instant upload, the video, the taking of any physical sd card won't matter much. Will seizure of your google online account laws be next?

      - - -

      May you live in interesting times. - Ancient Chinese curse

    3. Re:Google Glass by Threni · · Score: 1

      They can take the cloud from Google, yes. That'll work. They'll also have to take lots of peoples glasses to ensure they get everyone with Google Glasses, and not just ones which look similar. It's not going to look good when there are loads of court cases with police officers faces clearly visible, and the inaccurate words `you can't film me` (along with less pleasant language) played in court. It's going to be a career damaging move, isn't it.

    4. Re:Google Glass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No dipshit. It's so when they grab the glasses or knock them off his head, every glorious frame is recorded in IMAX and instantly uploaded for all to see. Of course, we won't know what happens after the incident but we'll hear from the victim soon enough. In the USA people do not go "missing" when in police custody. There may be a case here and there but more and more cops are being filmed and they are starting to notice.

      That's a good thing. Keep filming.

    5. Re:Google Glass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't hit a man with glasses, would you?

    6. Re:Google Glass by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      It will not damage their careers in the slightest. His department will clear him of all wrongdoing and claim that he acted appropriately no matter what the video says.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    7. Re:Google Glass by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      No, dummy :-) It means the cops don't have to know you're recording them

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:Google Glass by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      People don't typically understand how uniformly corrupt the police and the courts and the underlying legislation are until they've been dragged through the system unjustly. It's a complete eye-opener.

      They also don't understand how tightly the self-supporting web underneath these elements of the system is woven.

      Personally, I have come to the conclusion that there is no solution to be had.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    9. Re:Google Glass by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      So, how long do you think before being within X yards of a cop doing these kinds of things renders the glasses' network connection unusable?

      They routinely take down cell sites now when they think they need to. Your google glasses are just another radio, and almost any conventional radio can be jammed beyond recovery with almost no effort.

      It isn't legal by any means, but you can buy, right now, a compact device that will render every cellphone in a movie theater deaf as a post, the idea behind the device being that you could actually enjoy the presentation. You can jam police radar (again, not usually legal, but...) You can certainly jam wifi, nothing special about that at all.

      Of course, the police would never break the law, right? Oh, wait. They're already breaking the law, that's why they don't want you recording the acts in questions. So, like most criminals, what's just one more law sundered?

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    10. Re:Google Glass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well at least it will be on the internet before before they destroy it.

    11. Re:Google Glass by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      I think it might end being a HARMful idea if thugs with badges (as opposed to actual servants of the law) started jamming wifi and mobile whenever they wanted to beat someone. It's not like someone might EMPathise with the victims, after all. :)

      All punning aside, it'd be a seriously bad idea. That kind of escalation would only end in tears, and hopefully the administration's statement in favour of an individual's right to record the police indicates that TPTB realise this.

    12. Re:Google Glass by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      That's one problem Google Glass will sort out - none of this `you can't film here` crap. I'll film wherever the hell I like, officer.

      So your theory is that cops who are willing to beat you up and take your camera will be unwilling to beat you up and take your geek glasses?

      The point is while the cops are beating and robbing that guy there are three more people filming and uploading the incident from various angles. We can put the streams together with a nice picture in picture thing later.

      A reasonably fair court system and lots of video recordings might just cause the US police state to calm down.

    13. Re:Google Glass by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      It will not damage their careers in the slightest. His department will clear him of all wrongdoing and claim that he acted appropriately no matter what the video says.

      In most cases. Not in every case.

    14. Re:Google Glass by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      as opposed to actual servants of the law

      Let's not get into mythology here.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  23. The cynic in me ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The cynic in me guesses that this is an attempt to prevent the case from getting to the Supreme Court. See, this way, they say that "legitimate journalists" can video tape police, but not those bloggers or citizens.

    1. Re:The cynic in me ... by KillDaBOB · · Score: 1

      Read the article. It states that the administration believes these same rights also extend to those not in the press.

  24. RTFB: "journalists" is just bad reporting by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Informative

    They want to support the "journalists" other wise it would mean "everyone" this way they can come back and arrest/prosecute non journalists.

    This argument becomes harder to maintain when you read the actual government brief, and realize that while Ars Technica (and, following them, the Slashdot summary) use language that makes it seem like a government defense of special privileges for journalists, the actual brief takes the exact opposite position, arguing "that both the First and Fourth Amendments protect an individual who peacefully photographs police activity on a public street" and "the First Amendment right to record police officers performing public duties extends to both the public and members of the media, and the Court should not make a distinction between the public’s and the media’s rights to record here."

  25. Incentives by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So your theory is that cops who are willing to beat you up and take your camera will be unwilling to beat you up and take your geek glasses?

    I think the reference is more to the fact that, as a device that is normally connected and uploading to the internet, the fact that beating someone up and taking their "geek glasses" won't actually let you seize and destroy the recording, and just makes it more likely that, on top of whatever they were recording that made you want to seize the device getting out, the video of your beating them up to seize the device will also get out, which sort of removes the whole incentive for the beating-and-seizing behavior in the first place.

    1. Re:Incentives by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      Just wait until protesters are sent to the emergency room for "google glass embedded in eyeballs". it's going to happen.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    2. Re:Incentives by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      I mean when the cops smash your $1500 camera/glasses into your face, not when we all get Kurzweil-style singularity upgrades.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    3. Re:Incentives by nbauman · · Score: 1

      As somebody else here pointed out, the New York Civil Liberties Union has an Android app which transmits your video to the NYCLU web site instead of storing it on your phone.

  26. As for the "Video" Card by genkernel · · Score: 1

    It will never be seen again. And the journalist will be considered lucky that he still has his camera. Given all of the talk I hear from people down in the USA concerning the sanctity of private property, it seems somewhat strange that the government would be so myopic in matters like this. I suppose I shouldn't find that strange, I guess. Just another example of how the people with power live under different laws than the rest of us.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
  27. It's a telling sign of recent behavior by the DoJ by Fned · · Score: 2

    ... that until I read the summary, I actually wasn't sure if the headline meant the Obama administration was on the side of the journalist, or was on the side of arresting journalists who record cops...

  28. Doe Mr. Garcia have the new 3D-printed skull ? by Tex+Bravado · · Score: 1

    ... if he hit his head, I guess it's not inconceivable ?

  29. Kill the fucking pig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone needs to execute that degenerate fuck before he victimizes anyone else.

    1. Re:Kill the fucking pig by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Or possibly just arrest him, charge him with assault, wrongful imprisonment and theft, and let the appropriate sentence be applied should he be found guilty.

      Sorry, was I meant to overreact too?

    2. Re:Kill the fucking pig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, since none of those things ever happen: go kill yourself you retard.

  30. Re:DOJ explicitly rejects the "just journalists" l by KillDaBOB · · Score: 1

    Mod parent up. Too many people in this forum think that the post is only talking about journalists.

  31. I admire reason, but.... by postofreason · · Score: 1

    4. They can kill to protect others. i.e. a man about to push the button on a bomb that will kill people. They just need probable cause.

  32. Funny how its the "Obama Administration" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the justice department does something slashdot likes but "US Justice Department" when the "Obama Administration" prosecuted Andrew Swartz.

  33. Why didn't the DA charge the cop with robbery? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    Taking a person's property without justification and under color of authority is a serious crime.

    1. Re:Why didn't the DA charge the cop with robbery? by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      The DA won't press charges because then the police unions will make any investigation the DA is involved in "not work out," assuming the unlikely event that the DA is willing to charge any police officer with a crime at a time when the charges are otherwise avoidable.

    2. Re:Why didn't the DA charge the cop with robbery? by Arker · · Score: 1

      Even better question, there was at least one cop on the scene witnessing the assault, why did he not intervene to protect the citizen and arrest the miscreant?

      DAs will not prosecute dirty cops because the department as a whole would then get them back by sabotaging other case - which proves the department as a whole is corrupt. This is not an exception situation, unfortunately, it is the norm. This is the same reason that the other copy on the scene would not dare to do his job, even if he wanted to he would be restrained by fear of retaliation from his 'brother' officers.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    3. Re:Why didn't the DA charge the cop with robbery? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Taking a person's property without justification and under color of authority is a serious crime.

      Unless there is video proving the cop did this then legally he didn't. Video all the cops all the time, it's the only way to be sure.

  34. Thank goodness he didn't try to make a bad movie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because that's the sort of thing that will send you straight to jail in the most transparent administration ever.

    People that apologize for this administration were the same ones that were screaming bloody murder about a secretive review by an actual member of the Judicial branch of government, i.e., a FISA warrant.

    Let's face it, every one of these apologists would have made great apologists for Stalin or the Nazi's, and I worked with Mike Godwin, so I DO have the right to make that comparison.

  35. Great, now actually do something about it by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

    Fire the officers involved and charge them with assault.

    Go to lengths to find and return his memory card, because it's more than just the monetary value of the hardware.

    Oblige the department to publicly issue an official apology and compensate this man financially for medical costs, lost wages, undue hardship and punition of the department (make sure a good chunk of that money comes out of the involved officers' pockets, pensions and severance. I could care fuck-all about what difficulties it will cause for thugs in uniform who think they can illegally inflict force on anyone who "disagrees" with them while acting well one's rights)

    Otherwise, this "support" is nothing more than farts in the wind.

  36. Re:It's a telling sign of recent behavior by the D by Requiem18th · · Score: 2

    Also can we stop saying Obama Administration? Is the US gubermint. When we are talking about Obama let's bring these issues back into context but when we are talking about the DoJ, calling it Obama Administration is just insidious bickering.

    --
    But... the future refused to change.
  37. An acurate internet MEME by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    I thought it was funny when I read it but damned if somebody out there isn't playing Jumanji!

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  38. cops deserve punishment too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There needs to be REAL punishments for cops that act this way. They should have a responsibility to know the laws and when in doubt refer to someone who does. Instead you get tons of cops who simply arrest people for whatever they think. It's great that this reporter was found not guilty but they had to waste time and money to get to that verdict. So sad that cops can disrupt peoples lives without any recourse for the little people.

  39. Malouf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a suspiciously sounding Arab surname.

  40. Streets by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Does police OWN the streets?

    1. Re:Streets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does police OWN the streets?

      Many of cops think this way, it's part of the culture in most police departments.

  41. What Awareness Is There For Such An Event? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Well, I have heard of something referred to as, "Megan's Page" as a public statement. And I ask, "Why would a cop that has no problem attacking the unarmed be fearful?" From my point of view, this could be a "badge of honor page?" One could even be rewarded with a Rubber Gun? My apologies to Clint Eastwood.

  42. Mod parent up...its true.. by lpq · · Score: 1

    The parent should be modded up.

    Even off duty cops feel it's their right to harass anyone showing, anything (in their view), that constitutes abnormal behavior.

  43. There's no such thing as a fake journalist. by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    re: That applies even to journalists, as well as to fake journalists like O'Keefe, and to bystanders who record it on cellphones.[emphasis mine]
    .
    There's no such thing as a "fake journalist". If you keep a journal, whether as a writer for a newpaper (french "journal", "journaux") or as a writer for your own newsletter or as a typer for a web-page that publishes your own writings and musings, you are a journalist. Calling someone a "citizen journalist" is a way for the news-service employed to look down on the news-gatherers and reporters who may not be getting paid for their services.
    .
    Even freelancers (and possibly plagiarists) are getting offended when these for-profit corporations and companies dare to request free work from them, or to copy and publish their work without a fee: http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/mediawire/206237/atlantic-is-sorry-to-have-offended-freelancer-with-request-for-free-content/#comment-820797749
    .
    Actually, let me take back part of what I said. There is such a thing as a fake journalist: perhaps when someone prints or makes or purports to have fake credentials or calls themselves a journalist in order to get information which they have no intent of publishing or using in a story but is part of an investigation, or is just part of a ploy to be somewhere or pass through an otherwise restricted area. That would be a valid example of a "fake journalist". What you were describing is NOT a fake journalist. It's just someone who's not "credentialed" by some corporation or business as a newsie. And we don't even want to go into the problem of allowing governmental bodies to be the accrediting or validating agency for "journalists" or "news gatherers" or "reporters".

    1. Re:There's no such thing as a fake journalist. by nbauman · · Score: 1

      I call myself a journalist. For 30 years I made a living (most of the time) by writing for magazines, newspapers and web outlets, first as an employee who came into the office every day, and then as a freelancer who worked from home.

      I've written stories about schools, housing, police brutality, insurance, supermarkets, the military, law, medicine, computers, the environment, and engineering. My main beat is science and medicine, and I mostly report about new research and treatments to doctors to help them evaluate how much evidence there is behind it. I've also written about dangerous medical products that blew up in operating rooms and killed or injured patients, etc.

      Under the First Amendment, and the court cases that defined it, everyone has a pretty broad right to say or publish what they want. That's not my right as a working journalist, that's the right of everyone under our laws, including every student, amateur, part-time aspiring publisher, professional, or political flack. There are a few limits under the law of libel and criminal law, but not too much, particularly when you're writing about public figures. That's the law.

      Most of the time I'm not even credentialed. I tell them I'm on assignment for XYZ, or I'm a freelancer, and that's it. I never got a police press pass, because I don't have to ask them for permission to work.

      I've run into a lot of problems and confrontations in my career, and I've had to make a lot of decisions about what I as a journalist am supposed to do, after discussions with my editors and other journalists. So from that experience I've developed some guidelines.

      I define journalism, as I do it and my colleagues do it, in a certain way because it works.

      My job is to tell the truth to my audience. O'Keefe doesn't do that.

      O'Keefe is a political operative who gets paid by right-wing organizations to attack Democrats. O'Keefe once said that the job of a journalist was to put a camera in front of someone and wait until he says something stupid. That's exactly wrong.

      For example, I interviewed a military doctor who worked Iraq. Now I think the war in Iraq was wrong and a disaster, and he knew what I thought. But my job was to give him a fair chance to explain his message on his own terms, and he did a good job. I also gave him a couple of critical questions that he's probably heard before, and he did a good job of answering them. I didn't try to make him look like a fool or evil -- the way O'Keefe treats his enemies.

      I've interviewed nuclear power engineers and chemical plant managers. I had my own ideas about their work, but I let them explain themselves in their own terms, and I wrote stories giving the arguments on both sides.

      Principia Mathematica by Whitehead and Russell was supposed to be an exercise in deriving all of mathematics from one function (I think it was AND NOT or something like that).

      I think I can derive all of journalism from one principle: Get both sides of the story. When you have a controversy, as you usually do, you have to make an honest effort to give a good, fair argument to all sides. The strongest case is that when you attack somebody, you have to call them up and let them give their side. Maybe some cop beat up a handcuffed kid who wasn't resisting in front of a half dozen witnesses. I call up the police department to see what they have to say. Maybe some chemical company is pouring toxic wastes into the water table. About half the time they just dig themselves in deeper, and the other half of the time it turns out to be more complicated than it sounded after I just talked to one side. (If you want to understand the process, look up John Stuart Mill's On Liberty.)

      That's the difference between me and O'Keefe. I'm trying to be fair to everybody, and give everybody's side. If Acorn is doing something egregiously wrong, like helping pimps set up brothels with teenage prostitutes, then I or any journalist would write about it. But that's not what O'Keefe did.

      First he set up a trap, w

    2. Re:There's no such thing as a fake journalist. by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the very detailed and well-thought out and well-presented reply. You certainly are a journalist :>) and a pretty fine writer ;>) . I did not know the details about O'Keefe, but I am certainly glad you have enlightened me. I was not trying to validate O'Keefe's "journalist"-ic imprimateur; I was, however, questioning limiting the "brand-name" or "tag" of journalist in the way that was being suggested. I agree with your definition whole-heartedly. The problem with opinion-based definitions (and defining someone as a journalist as someone "who is trying to tell the truth" is opinion-based, as you will find many, many opinions as to what "really" constitutes truth) is that there will be no agreement reached or any consensus reachable.
      .
      I fully agree with you that some-one who does not check their facts is not a journalist. Re the "AND NOT", it is possible to create all possible binary functions (and all possible boolean operations) by the correct construction made up of only NAND gates (the NOT AND gate), because it is functionally complete. The NOR gate (a.k.a. "NOT OR") is also functionally complete.

  44. Homonym patrol: populace (n) vs. populous (adj). by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    re: How dare he give the populous the right to monitor the police state.
    ;>)
    We, the populace, are indeed populous!!! One is a noun, the other is adjectival. --- signed, the Homonym patrol. Our motto: that word does not mean what you think it means.