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China Using 'State Secrets' Label To Hide Pollution

Posted by timothy on from the where-sunshine-laws-don't-shine dept.

eldavojohn writes "More problems have surfaced as people attempt to bring soil pollution problems to light in China. From the article: 'When Pan sued the Hebei Department of Environmental Protection in 2011, he was given access to the environmental impact assessment that the environment ministry claimed it had done in the village. Pan discovered that the assessment, carried out by the Chinese Academy of Meteorological Sciences, had names of people who had left the village two decades previously and even a person who had been dead for two years — all "expressing favor" for the project. Pan surveyed 100 people in his village, showing them the purported environmental impact study. The majority of them gave him written statements that declared: "I've never seen this form," according to documents seen by Reuters.' Reuters has also discovered that China uses 'state secrets' labels to hide environmental studies and pollution numbers as well as using strong arm tactics to silence residents attempting to do their own studies."

30 of 149 comments (clear)

  1. China Using 'State Secrets' Label... by fustakrakich · · Score: 4, Funny

    Gee, welcome to the club.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:China Using 'State Secrets' Label... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "Gee, welcome to the club."

      Yes, exactly. Our own government has used the "state secrets" lie to cover much of its own misdoings... why should we be surprised -- much less alarmed -- that China would be doing the same thing?

      Hey, fellow Americans! Yes, our country (and especially government) can use a lot of improvement. Let's not be hypocrites, okay?

  2. I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Come on, the issue here isn't abuse of a state secrets process.

    The issue is the Chinese government (national level) is not based upon any principles of openness. They hide anything and everything that might threaten their place in power. The only time it comes out is when trying to keep it secret would hurt even more (i.e when a coverup is exposed).

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by Mystakaphoros · · Score: 2

      In the long term, the trend of hiding things that threaten their power will likely be a threat to the Party's power.

    2. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by hoggoth · · Score: 2

      While I agree that a government of secrets and deception is a terrible problem, you don't have any idea what you are talking about. You half remember a quote you heard once about Marx and opium and have made up a story to explain your fuzzy recollection instead of taking the barest effort to find out what you are talking about before spouting your uninformed opinion. Go look up Marx and opium right now so that in the future, on this one point, you will no longer sound ignorant.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    3. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by anagama · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They hide anything and everything that might threaten their place in power.

      And this is distinctive from America how? In America, the State Secrets Doctrine has its roots in a wrongful death suit by the widows of some RCA engineers who were working for the US Air Force when they died in a plane crash in 1948. During discovery, the widows sought the accident report. The Air Force said that it contained information vital to national security and would not turn it over. Eventually, the case got to the Supreme Court, and without actually looking at the document, ruled that it could be kept secret. 40 some years later, it was declassified. It contained nothing in it beyond what was publicly known about the project, but it also revealed that the Air Force had negligently failed to install manufacturer recommended heat shields in the engines, among other issues with the plane, and that the engines caught fire leading to the crash.

      http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/383/origin-story?act=2#play

      So you tell me, is our State Secrets doctrine, the one that Obama has used to prevent people from suing for unlawful detention, unlawful torture, unlawful wiretapping, and unlawful execution, based in anything but an attempt to avoid embarrassment and liability? How is it that we are morally superior to the Chinese government on this issue?

      Examples:
      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/10torture.html?_r=0
      http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/10/obama-administration-invokes-state-secrets-privilegeagain/
      http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0811/Obama_admin_asserts_state_secrets_privilege_to_dismiss_Muslims_suit.html
      http://www.salon.com/2010/09/25/secrecy_7/

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    4. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by interval1066 · · Score: 2

      In other news the sky is blue, communusm is oppressive, and both the US & PRC governments don't like bad press. Nothing to see here.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    5. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      And this is distinctive from America how?

      Let's assume for a moment that it's exactly the same as America. What do we have then? We have two problems instead of one. It means the world is worse than it could be. It means now China AND America need to be cleaned up. Either way, China still has problems.

      The surprising thing about this story is how much information this guy was actually able to get.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by khallow · · Score: 2

      nd both the US & PRC governments don't like bad press

      In other news, once again Slashdotters instinctively drag the US into a discussion of China. It's like a really big province of China, right?

    7. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by anagama · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with you that China should clean up its act. But what bugged me was the parent poster's seeming attitude that China was different somehow. I should have quoted the comment more fully:

      The issue is the Chinese government (national level) is not based upon any principles of openness. They hide anything and everything that might threaten their place in power. The only time it comes out is when trying to keep it secret would hurt even more (i.e when a coverup is exposed).

      I would have no issue with the comment if it read "The issue with government in general" -- or "The issue is the Chinese government (national level), like that of most, is not based ..."

      It strikes me as hypocritical to suggest that China has some distinctive secrecy evil that one's own government steadfastly avoids (specifically, that secrecy is usually about protection from embarrassment, liability, or corruption/special industry favors). It's like a crack head denigrating a heroin addict as a dope fiend. Maybe I read too much into it, but that was my impression.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    8. Re:I'm only surprised they bothered to label it by shoemilk · · Score: 2

      I'm surprised they didn't try to blame it on Japan again.

  3. Lousy REDACTED. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can't imagine living in REDACTED country where REDACTED was allowed to REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED. You'd think in the US, the REDACTED of Information Act would REDACTED this sort of thing but instead we find REDACTED REDACTED.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:Lousy REDACTED. by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the USA, most government information IS open. But don't try to find out what chemicals frackers might be pumping down oil wells and into your groundwater. THEY are very much protected from public scrutiny.

  4. This will only work by kilodelta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Until China starts experiencing a massive die off due to the pollution. Eventually they'll probably wake up to the fact and require manufacturing to install preventive measure. By that point manufacturing in China will be as expensive as it is in the United States. I wonder what big business will do then?

    1. Re:This will only work by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Africa

    2. Re:This will only work by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually - China is working on a controlled die off anyway. They got to many people. They have limited the right to reproduce. One couple, one child. That is not a sustainable birth rate. China is intentionally decreasing their population, right now, as we sit and chat about it. A few catastrophes aren't going to deter them.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re:This will only work by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      China has enough population that if they'd die off quietly and cheaply, it wouldn't hurt China. And when China is expensive, everything will move to Africa. There's still plenty of cheap labor on the planet. The only question is where the cheapest place (and educated workforce reduces cost, as does solid infrastructure, one reason why China is cheaper than India, despite higher labor costs in China).

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    4. Re:This will only work by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      chinese companies are already outsourcing to africa.

      being where china was 30 years ago sounds like the perfect place to move manufacturing to for a variety of companies.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  5. Predictable Replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Expected replies for China article on /.

    1. "It's not like ______ didn't do it before/isn't doing it too."
    2. "Why is this news, we expect this from China."
    3. "So what, it's their country. We have no right to judge."

    Let us embrace such wisdom and apply it consistently, for US/Europe articles too!
    No country should bear criticism on Slashdot!
    Join me in extending these fallacies EVERYWHERE my brothers and sisters!

    1. Re:Predictable Replies by noh8rz10 · · Score: 2

      Expected replies for China article on /.

      1. "It's not like ______ didn't do it before/isn't doing it too." 2. "Why is this news, we expect this from China." 3. "So what, it's their country. We have no right to judge."

      I thought you were just being douchey, but then i read some of the comments below and realized you were spot on! saw lots of #1 mostly.

    2. Re:Predictable Replies by kheldan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about this reply:

      Between China and India they have, what, somewhere between a third and half the population of the world? Has it occurred to anyone else that between them with their more or less uncontrolled polluting, they're undoing everything that every other industrialized country is doing to reverse global warming?

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    3. Re:Predictable Replies by TopSpin · · Score: 2

      but then i read some of the comments below and realized you were spot on

      I noticed this behavior a few years ago when the Apple+Foxconn stories started to appear. After hunting through the comments of a few of those stories I came up with a comprehensive list of rationalizations.

      We are comfortable office people steeped in self-loathing. We can equivocate any evil by dismissing criticism as hypocrisy. The fact that in the case of Chinese industry these arguments happen to align with the desire for low cost products produced well outside "the environment" is purely coincidental...

      --
      Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
    4. Re:Predictable Replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the horse's mouth,

      http://www.worldcoal.org/resources/coal-statistics/

      And all the envirowhackos are protesting "nukular" while coal usage alone increased 10% between 2010 and 2011.

            7,600,000,000 tons of coal, half mined and burned in China.

      So all the bullshit that politicians talk about "limiting Global Warming" is just that - bullshit and hot air. What is even more sad, is the envirowhackos protesting things like Transcanada pipeline (tarsands) while completely ignoring the real problem - coal.

      Someone said there is enough oil, gas and coal to turn Earth into another Venus. I guess full steam ahead on that plan!

      In 2011 coal was the fastest growing form of energy outside renewables. Its share in global primary energy consumption increased to 30.3% - the highest since 1969.

    5. Re:Predictable Replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Between China and India they have, what, somewhere between a third and half the population of the world? Has it occurred to anyone else that between them with their more or less uncontrolled polluting, they're undoing everything that every other industrialized country is doing to reverse global warming?

      YES. This. Precisely this. Whenever I hear the environmentalists spout their screed about conservation, cutbacks and carbon I want to smack them upside the head for completely ignoring what's going in China and India. They either take the rest of us for complete fools or are fools themselves. Either way, I want nothing to do with them. However, just in case there are some out there reading, riddle me this. The Chinese and Indian governments have already said that they will do essentially nothing on climate change. They want their 100 years of pollution and development and have basically told the environmentalists in the United States and Europe to go f*** themselves. There is zero chance that the Chinese and Indians are going to tell their people, "We know that you want that house with the two car garage, a gas guzzler vehicle and that big ass TV, but we cannot let you have these things because of climate change." They would have a revolution on their hands or what the Chinese call "social instability". So any sacrifices that you greens make here in the United States and Europe are meaningless as regards global temperature rises from greenhouse gas emissions. In other words, you're wasting your time because China and India will never agree to cooperate in any meaningful ways. You stand on principles if you want to, but I'd rather just enjoy what time we have left.

    6. Re:Predictable Replies by khallow · · Score: 2

      Someone said there is enough oil, gas and coal to turn Earth into another Venus.

      I think that's outright wrong. There's roughly 80 times as much carbon dioxide in Venus's atmosphere as there is total atmosphere on Earth. That's a lot of carbon. But even if there was enough carbon, there isn't enough oxygen in the atmosphere. We're about two orders of magnitude too short.

    7. Re:Predictable Replies by furbyhater · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At least the environmentalists in your country get up from their ass and try to improve SOMETHING. You can't really expect them to move to China in a completely foreign environment to protest coal plants there. What are you doing, except sitting on your ass working, consuming and trying to get everyone into the same hopeless and jaded state of mind that you are in? Congratulations, genius!

  6. So what's so remarkable about that? by ErnyCowan · · Score: 5, Informative

    In Canada our Conservative government has very similar policies. Using legislative process that suppressed scrutiny and debate it scrapped many environmental protection laws and regulations, eviscerated government science and oversight programs. It muzzles what scientists still remain buy requiring anyone in the civil service or or on contract with the government to receive approval from the Prime Minister's office before making any statement to the public. It even imposes these restrictions on non-Canadian agencies that need government approval to do research in Canada. That's what happens when ideologues get in control. - Erny

  7. Welcome to Canada by jfbriere · · Score: 2

    Not exactly "States Secrets" labeling, rather an "obsessive information control" about environmental issues.
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/canadian-scientists-continue-muzzled-harper-government-234902614.html

  8. Yet another example by no-body · · Score: 2

    Where the instinctual drive in humans of "caring for others" is overwritten by some other neural plugin, downloadable on many places and then run as religious. illusion, political doctrine, corporate capialistic ideology and alike.

  9. Laziness for efficiency. by gl4ss · · Score: 2

    come on,

    it's obvious why the report was what it was. the guys who did it had skimmed through university by cheating and making up reports from made up facts.
    so.. when they get to work, what do you expect of them? that they travel 20 hours in a stinky train to the site to do the study? no fucking way!

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.