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Why Trolls Win With Toxic Comments
Hugh Pickens writes "The Web is a place for unlimited exchange of ideas. But according to an NPR report, researchers have found that rude comments on articles can change the way we interpret the news. 'It's a little bit like the Wild West. The trolls are winning,' says Dominique Brossard, co-author of the study on the so-called 'Nasty Effect.' Researchers worked with a science writer to construct a balanced news story on the pros and cons of nanotechnology, a topic chosen so that readers would have to make sense of a complicated issue with low familiarity. They then asked 1,183 subjects to review the blog post from a Canadian newspaper that discussed the water contamination risks of nanosilver particles and the antibacterial benefits. Half saw the story with polite comments, and the other half saw rude comments, like: 'If you don't see the benefits of using nanotechnology in these products, you're an idiot.' People that were exposed to the polite comments didn't change their views really about the issue covering the story, while the people that did see the rude comments became polarized — they became more against the technology that was covered in the story. Brossard says we need to have an anchor to make sense of complicated issues. 'And it seems that rudeness and incivility is used as a mental shortcut to make sense of those complicated issues.' Brossard says there's no quick fix for this issue (PDF), and while she thinks it's important to foster conversation through comments sections, every media organization has to figure out where to draw the line when comments get out of control. 'It's possible that the social norms in this brave new domain will change once more — with users shunning meanspirited attacks from posters hiding behind pseudonyms and cultivating civil debate instead,' writes Brossard. 'Until then, beware the nasty effect.'"
That's Why.
Not sure what kinds of forums they're talking about, but I'm pretty sure there isn't any trolling on any of the forums I post on.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The polarization is because of the left wing agenda pushed by Obama. You see it when the poor rise up and congratulate the new pope while simultaneously agreeing to farm subsidies for Monsanto
We have a winner!
Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
I don't know if anyone felt like this, but I remember in middle school being with a group of kids and as soon as someone said something nasty/ negative about an individual, everyone felt they had to agree and chime in. Whenever it was something positive, the responses were mostly neutral.
Now as a 30-something, I sense this "negative groupthink" with the younger coworkers, but with my peers we have disagreeing opinions. I know at least when I debate I try to see it from all angles, whereas people younger (and much older) than me seem to only have one point of view, and only theirs is the correct one. Or, it's easier to follow than to create your own set of opinions and facts to support it.
Does it begin with polarized news or comments that may correct/nullify the polarization of the news?
Certainly more and more people are realizing the News is polarized already.
TV ads have used anchoring for decades - "You won't pay $300, or $200, or $150 for this product, but it's yours today for 3 low payments of $29.99".
The first prices anchor your expectation, and $29 sounds like a great deal. Even those smart enough to mentally say "you mean $90" still come up with a 2-digit number instead of 3 digits, and it seems like a good deal.
Stores do this too. A slow-selling model will suddenly jump up in price when placed next to the product's big brother, at a higher price. The goal isn't to sell the more expensive product, it is to anchor your price to the smaller version seems like a deal.
When people have no idea what is going on, they need an anchor. This seems to be true of anything.
Automatic Master's thesis in any subject in advertising - take something advertisers have known for decades, make your thesis about how that applies to your field, and then do a study.
Advertisers have the financial incentive to know how people think, and the only problem is they stopped before generalizing into behavior patterns, and just made it about purchasing.
Strange how I still don't know the actual definition of 'troll' despite being on here for ages. It seems to have multiple definitions to suit whoever throws the comment out.
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If nice comments don't make you question the story (which is what this research determined), then perhaps trolling has a value. Any technology is going to have pros and cons. If nice comments don't change any opinions, then what is the point of them? And if trolls cause a more thorough discussion, then perhaps their damage is overrated.
Nonetheless, there is a strong value in moderating trolls when they become cliquish. Go read the comments in any jpost article to see an example.
I've never come across a news site that allowed "open" comments not become dominated by their inaneness.
Why do news sites allow them? I suppose there may be a connection between allowing them and traffic (I really don't know) - but I see highly serious, respectable local news outlets that already have a strong base suddenly decide "Hey, everyone's doing it, why not us?"
In ye old days we had "Letters to the Editor". Open comments are not a viable replacement. The former were heavily moderated.
Beetle B.
My favorite method requires a bit more work. I don't know if I've seen it done, but that is the point.
The method involves letting the person keep posting, but only they can see their posts after being flagged. That way they can keep thinking they are making noise and also not get any attention.
The study had the subjects read an article and the comments. I'm curious what effect rude comments have when noone reads the article, so we can better understand Slashdot.
Thank you very much for your time spent reading this, ladies and gentlemen.
The polarizing effect can even be a good one. When I see someone make a stupid attach I have a tendency to research the subject and become more informed. That is a good thing. Perhaps attacks make people learn more to defend their positions.
The changing of attitudes is more complex. Here are some possible reasons;
If people who can not carry on a polite debate in support or opposition of a technology perhaps their position is weak and they are trying to bully their way through. I would hesitate to support the same position as a troll.
Perhaps when people see negative speech they begin to think negatively bout everything and that manifests at negativity about the subject.
This too may be a research issue as more information may change the position.
This is true. But also, there is the problem of determining what/who is a troll. If you admin a forum, and especially if you are a media organisation, you should be aware that people will try to push their political message, and you should simply remove these comments if you cannot filter them before their arrival. In internet communities, sockpuppets are frowned upon, but it seems that the old media has not caught up yet, thus multiple trolls thrive.
Then there are idiots and rude people. A simple upvote/downvote system can keep that under control.
Also, threads. Threads are good because they contain/constrain the trolls who cannot effectively pollute large number of conversations (if they try, they will also "lose" large numbers of conversations, to the detriment of their "side".)
It's called "bully."
Don't get what you want? Throw a tantrum or take by force.
Few people agree with what you say? Be mean to them, belittle them, In public if possible. Bully them until a) they kick your ass or kill you, b) you *do* win them over, or 3) they stop listening to you.
This particular phenomenon isn't quite new. TV and Religion work much the same way. One blogger or poster or anchor or pastor or priest will say one thing, then an avalanche of people incapable of original, independent thought nod in assent. In order to rile the crowd, they will attack the person and ideas of those who "oppose" them. "Gee, if senator Juan Pingalarga is here in church agreeing with the pastor's bashing of gays, it must be ok! I'll bash gays too!" Tell me this isn't how it works. Tell me this isn't how we get these sickening political comments threads on CNN, etc. Tell me that's not how we get these fantastically bellicose flame wars here about win vs. unix, apple vs. android / samsung etc.
Tell me this isn't why America's rapidly slipping into irrelevance -- the smart and quiet ones constantly out-mouthed by the dumb and loud.
This starts at home and school, and the only way to buck it is to teach the little ones right, not trusting their education largely to TV or the Internet.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
Why do you think politicians use nasty vile language to trash their opponents? It delivers both (a) the message that they are better, and (b) reinforces that with a visceral reaction from their audience. The problem become when they then have to sit down and work out a solution to a problem - the previous reaction of the audience makes their compromise seem unacceptable. So what we have in a two-party system is a race to abandon the middle. Anyone trying to reduce the level of nastiness is attacked by their opponent as weak and unprincipled, and therefore is voted out of office, leading to a more and more splintered society.
It's called "hellbanning", and it's done in more places than you might think. You can even have the hellbanned trolls see the other hellbanned troll posts, giving them all a nice padded room to go nuts with Nerf.
There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
Big mistake. The idea that any rude comment or any comment that you disagree with is a troll. Any clear view on a subject, any unpopular opinion is a troll.
I've been marked as a troll, for example, for my ideas regarding religion (I understand that religion is detrimental for modern humans, that teaching religion to children is a form of abuse, and therefore indoctrinating anyone under 18 should be illegal).
Truth is, regardless of what you think about my idea (please don't turn this into a religious discussion, I only used it as an example), that doesn't mean I'm trolling, it only means I have a radically different idea, and that yours and mine are incompatible, it doesn't mean I'm intentionally trying to upset you. If you are so sensitive, the problem lies with you, not with my comment.
Also, the idea that anything rude must be a troll. Rude comments win (if the underlying idea has any basis) because rude shows conviction, certainty. If I say "nanotechnology is a good idea, you should be more open-minded", I sound weak. If I say "Fuck this anti-science bullshit. We need to get rid of fear of technology, anyone that doesn't understand the benefits of nanotechnology after reading this article is a backwards idiot that has no place in modern society", I'm essentially saying the same fucking thing, but with different wording. This PC society we live in tells us we need to be nice to everybody. That is simply not truth, if you understand that something is simply wrong, and you are certain of your ideas, grow some fucking balls and express them in a way that is actually effective.
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
And the WELL stinks.
Circular fantasies about post-economic info-tech utopia.
You people were the usefull idiots who forged the tools for perpetual, universal surveillance and drone warfare.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
...always crap anyway, so why read them at all?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
This is true. But also, there is the problem of determining what/who is a troll.
The real destroyers of the discussion aren't usually strictly speaking trolls, they're people with an extreme black-and-white point of view who'll attack anyone with a dissenting opinion with the intensity of a pit bull with rabies. They're often met by their equal and opposite and together they'll churn out 100 posts drowning out any discussion by anyone with the slightest hint of seeing both sides of the argument.
For example on our largest newspaper's discussion pages on any page related to immigration or that could possibly framed in reference to immigration (employment = immigrants stealing our work etc.) we'd have the ex-leader of a white supremacist party ranting and raving, all within freedom of speech but what's the point of trying to have a discussion with him? I think they got 200 votes at the election so they represent some 0.00...% of the population, but he sure can take up a lot of online space. And their opposites are those who want to open all borders, let all cultures and people blend and afterwards we'll all sing kumbayah and be one big happy family, nothing could possibly go wrong with importing dark age attitudes and Sharia law or completely extinguishing our national identity.
Or on any article about our version of the CPS there's a guy who clearly is on a crusade against them, half the time he claims they're mad with power and just like to crush families, twist lies and abuse their power, the other half he's trying to make them part of a feminist conspiracy that will always side with the mother no matter what. No points for guessing what his experience with them is, though he never mentions that only uses a lot of pseudoscience and worthless studies that claim the same as him. I could on, but for every subject there seems to be a few people with an ax to grind who just won't shut up. It's practically the online variety of filibustering.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
One name I have heard for this strategy is a "shadow ban"
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
Not that slashdot is an island of perfection it has a pretty good BS filter, one of the best troll filters, and potentially one of the best off-topic filters. So if there is an article on black holes and someone starts ranting about 911 conspiracies they end up with a -1 pretty damn quick. If someone posts their slightly strange theory on black holes they may or may not survive but probably won't get a 5 and if someone goes half off-topic but against the grain of slashdotters and says blackholes are just a theory and the bible has a better answer they too will get badly spanked.
Where self moderating groups like slashdot and reddit can go wrong is when you violate a cultural taboo. Saying valid good things about Microsoft or valid bad things about Linux will get you a karmic black eye and on reddit not being racist will get you in trouble in many sub sections. Yet reddit is pretty good at sorting out fact from fiction (compared to many news organizations' comments sections).
The quality of many news organizations' comments moderation is best shown by the number of spam/completely bonkers comments that they let survive.
On a side note I am not happy with the number of organizations using Discus (I have hosts blocked them). I had an experience with one of their people and man o man do they seem to gather data.
This is true. Which is why, for all its flaws, I suspect the slashdot solution is the best-ish you can get. It is not perfect, and perhaps a slightly more fine-grained solution to points would be nice (for example, getting+1 would require 1 moderator giving you a point, +2 two mods, and so on).
But in general moderator aversion to shills helps a lot: to give an example, if you read the Guardian, whenever there is a subject remotely connected to the EU, a horde of people are there to spew general nonsense, and they will repeat the same false points again and again. Except there simply are not that many people who care that much and I suspect that this is an organised ploy which is meant to push a particular political agenda. Same thing for nuclear, or any topic where there is a very vocal minority who has an agenda.
I realise this is all conspiracy-theory sounding, but it is a documented truth that activists groups of all sides do that, and to me, when you are a respected news organisation, it falls within your duties to police the trolls.
I'm not sure it's bias that's the root problem. There are many more other factors to consider:
1. Slashdot was born in a time when computer geeks were frequently abused and ostracized as teenagers. One of our defense mechanisms for this was to decide (often with adult encouragement) that we were smarter and better than everyone else.
2. Intelligent people with technical training (i.e. geeks) can easily come up with a plausible-sounding explanation for just about anything. You'll sometimes hear this called Engineer's Syndrome.
3. Moderation is focused on modding up entertaining writing and modding down flagrant spam. There's no separate mod option for rating actual subject matter expertise.
4. Getting modded +5 is rewarding (for your ego, at least). There's no reward for not commenting.
5. You have to be an active commenter to get mod points.
The upshot of all this is that users are motivated to comment regardless of what they add to the discussion. We underestimate how much we don't know, and thus overrate the comments of people like us. There's very little incentive for humility here.
(All this is based on my observations from reading and commenting in the past ~15 years. Am I a psychologist? No. Have I done any kind of rigorous study of this? No. Am I doing the thing I complained about in #2 above? Quite possibly! See how easy it is to fall into this trap? ;-) )
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It's a brilliant, almost tit for tat response to actual trolls who do it just to spread evil and waste other people's time. It is pretty devastating if it's used for other commenters, who maybe just have a provocative writing style or unpopular views. I hope it's being used with great caution
You think that could happen? Is there a site like that?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
In some certain circumstances enemies don't cost you anything and friends get you some small benefit
One example would be a deep Red (or Blue) district politician who acts like trolls and makes as many enemies as friends. But his friends are in his/her district enemies are outside, so he does not care.
Or even an obnoxious car salesman advertising in radio "Costoria Buick! Owner Ed has gone mad! He is stackin' 'em deep, selling 'em cheap"!. Yeah, that guy is irritating, but you might still remember the name of the dealership, and the irritated millions do not bother him. The few sales leads that he does get is enough for Ed Costoria.
So I don't see the internet trolls as winners, but the sites hosting them as losers.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Pseudonyms and rude behavior are separable issues, and should be treated as such. Rude behavior can be addressed with moderation (and should be.)
Pseudonyms are important for a number of reasons, including protection from stalkers, rouge governments (but I repeat myself), troll shadowing, bullying, ex-(wives|husbands|jackbooted thugs|etc), revolutionary ideas that step on other people's turf, or could, critical political commentary, and, oh yes, privacy, should one desire that.
The fact that pseudonyms are the first layer for many trolls is irrelevant if moderation is adequate. And that, in turn, can be addressed in many ways. Slashdot, for instance, reduces visibility of trolls by rare (unfortunately) moderation. Other sites let the users detect and suppress the trolls; that kills trolls faster, but it also kills contrary ideas and that's not good.
So it seems to me that the most important thing here is to get moderation up to the highest possible standard. When you run a site, after all, it's your barbecue... you should get right in there and see that the level of discourse you want is maintained. If you don't, it's your fault. Don't blame the pseudonymous folks for your failings.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Jon Stewart pointed this out once when he noted that, "no Congressman ever got ahead by jumping on his desk and yelling 'be reasonable!'"
"You suck" is much more powerful than "me, too."
John
There's nothing that makes me think about the plight of the LGBT community more than seeing the loonies from the Westboro Baptist Church screeching about them. Same with neo-Nazi groups, anti-immigrant activists and others.
Have gnu, will travel.
Made an actual effort to let us report troll comments and fucking remove them.
well, the Economist has an article about how reasonability or civility is exactly the succesful political trait in Sweden and 'Scandinavia'.
In ye old days there was a specific amount of space available for letters to the editor; usually about half a page.
There is still a limit even today: the patience of the reader. Just because you can publish every comment on an article does not mean that you should. I rarely do more than glance at the comments on news sites because they are full of drivel. They could at least select the one or two sensible comments and have the rest accessible by a link if anyone wants to bother reading them.
You know, nostalgia is not the same nowadays as it was back then.
I also remember when the troll was conceived as a person who plays a game of intellectual manipulation to triumph in argument; usually, the troll's does not adhere to the views he expresses. But the features of trolling were often sophistry (for the serious troll), fallacies (for the trolls who don't know better), but most impotantly, the necessary feature is a polemic (i.e. argumet). These weren't flame wars and did not appear as such, and between usenet and oldschool web forum communities a good troll could keep it up for days, weeks, even months. Most often the troll is outed after someone discovers the user in concurrent or prior participation in other troll-like threads there and elsewhere (trolls often used the same handles and accounts across sites and services). These people I am now forced to call Original Trolls, or OT, to distinguish from what people call trolls now. Sure, some nominal trolls pulled off similar pranks, like the markov text people, always good for a chuckle.
But then came the forum ninjas, those guys who start off as OT's might - with sincere comments - and quickly abandon the discussions they've started. But then someone started calling these people trolls, and then it was open season: You were a troll if you caused any kind of dischord, intended or not. How many times have we seen a thread start out innocent enough, only to go up in flames, and people almost always accuse the OP instead of the person in the thread who lit the matches? Yea, people really don't care to be discerning about who is a troll these days.
The worst kind of troll, if you ask me, is the troll crier. This is the user who casually labels other users as a troll, without justification. And once the name sticks, it is hard to shake, as there is no recourse for the accused to defend himself as not a troll. Meanwhile the troll crier, like one who cries witch, can point to anything as evidence for his claim. Bad crops means a witch, right? So what makes a troll? Anything, the troll crier doesn't even care, not that he needs to prove his point. And that's just the kind of thing a troll might do. Hmm. Something to think about the next time you find yourself dismissing users because of your local troll crier.
For some reason I decided to hunt through the Slashcode repository to see how moderation works, and I think you're right. To be on the list of eligible users, you have to have a certain minimum karma and a UID that's older than a certain limit. The list is then processed to select "good" moderators based on metamoderation and whether they actually use all their mod points. The good moderators are more likely to receive tokens, which eventually become mod points. I'm not clear on whether anything else can give tokens, since there are a lot of files and I'm manually reading through the repository. But it looks like you can get more mod points just by moderating fairly, which I guess was the whole point of metamod in the first place.
I didn't do anything like a full survey of the code base, so obviously take this with a grain of salt.
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