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Sewage Plants Struggle To Treat Fracking Wastewater

MTorrice writes "When energy companies extract natural gas trapped deep underground using hydraulic fracturing, they're left with water containing high levels of pollutants, including benzene and barium. Sometimes the gas producers dispose of this fracking wastewater by sending it to treatment plants that deal with sewage and water from other industrial sources. But a new study (abstract) suggests that the plants can't handle this water's high levels of contaminants: Water flowing out of the plants into the environment still has elevated levels of the chemicals from natural gas production."

264 comments

  1. Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Pollution rears its ugly rear.

    1. Re:Externalities Rule by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This one is particularly easy to fix - make them pay for upgrades to the plants.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Externalities Rule by afidel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or make them put it in deep injection wells like we do in Ohio, it's probably the ONLY part of Ohio's approach I agree with (does not apply in geologically active areas since it can set off earthquakes).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "does not apply in geologically active areas since it can set off earthquakes"

      Like where the majority of the oil is?

      Thanks for the help.

    4. Re:Externalities Rule by SydShamino · · Score: 0

      From the anecdotal news I see, injecting used fracking water underground seems to turn any area into a geologically active area. See: DFW, North Dakota, Pennsylvania.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah and who cares how many jobs this costs, right COMRADE?

    6. Re:Externalities Rule by brian0918 · · Score: 2

      An easier fix: privatize the waterways. Then if you pollute the water, and the property owner can demonstrate harm, they can take you to court.

    7. Re:Externalities Rule by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Which means they will just choose to only pollute the water ways of the poor, or just make it hard to prove it is them doing it.

      Privatizing the waterways would make this worse.

    8. Re:Externalities Rule by Grayhand · · Score: 2

      This one is particularly easy to fix - make them pay for upgrades to the plants.

      Good luck with that, they can't get the coal plants to install the scrubbers that are required by law. All they have to do is whine about lost profits and Congress runs for cover like cockroaches from light. We need to start enforcing the laws instead of doing things like exempting oil and gas from the clean water act.

    9. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What?!?!? Why allow that when you can just shut the frackers down.

      After all, that's the real goal of the article.

    10. Re:Externalities Rule by characterZer0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then the government could claim Eminent Domain to take the waterways away and give them to the power companies. Everybody (with enough money to buy politicians) wins!

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    11. Re:Externalities Rule by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The real answer is to fill the CEO's swimming pool with it. If it fills up, fill the bathtub, kitchen sink, etc finally, just water his lawn with the rest.

      I'll bet if we implemented a lottery system where that would happen at random, that water would be sparkling clean coming out of the plants no matter what the cost.

    12. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Casings frequently leak. Putting it through a hole, passing through the water table we depend on for drinking water as well as water for our farm animals and crops, is not a good thing.

    13. Re:Externalities Rule by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I would think that it would create a boon in waste plant worker jobs.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    14. Re:Externalities Rule by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Of course, for Libertarian ideals to stand a chance of working, we would need to get rid of government interferences in the free market - such as corporations.

      I'm not sure you fix could be considered "easier". :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    15. Re:Externalities Rule by David_Hart · · Score: 2

      From the anecdotal news I see, injecting used fracking water underground seems to turn any area into a geologically active area. See: DFW, North Dakota, Pennsylvania.

      I could be wrong, but, based on what I have read to date, these areas were geologically active on a tiny scale prior to fracking, at least in Pennsylvania. There was a documentary on fracking that I saw where they were blaming methane coming out of the sink on fracking and I seem to remember local residents commenting after the video came out that this was somewhat common even before the fracking started.

      In my opinion, the problem is that we still know very little about tiny geological shifts as it seems that geologists are more interested in studying geological shifts that can kill people (i.e. volcanoes and large earthquakes), and rightly so.

      The question is, does fracking just amplify or hasten any current activity or does it cause new activity? What are the short term and long term consequences of fracking? I guess we are going to find out over the next decade or so...

    16. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So basically a fascist make work project subsidized by the taxpayer. Gotcha, COMRADE.

    17. Re:Externalities Rule by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Can I have your address? I need to send some people over with some... literature.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    18. Re:Externalities Rule by Tokolosh · · Score: 2

      The first oil well in the US was in PA, next to Oil Creek. It was called Oil Creek before the first well was drilled, I wonder why?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Well

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    19. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This one is particularly easy to fix - make them pay for upgrades to the plants.

      Please don't forget that environmentalists, activist, and as far as I know, EPA, were kept from requiring the industry to disclose the specific chemicals it was using. You can't tell me you believe it was OK to pump benzene into your water treatment facilities without disclosing it.

      Furthermore, why do you want public health facilities (in this case water treatment plants) to become de facto dumping grounds for anything industry might wish to use in its operations, especially when the chemicals become more dilute and therefore more difficult and costly to extract from you drinking water?

    20. Re:Externalities Rule by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      You can't tell me you believe it was OK to pump benzene into your water treatment facilities without disclosing it.

      I would say it rather depends on whether or not the facility was equipped to handle benzene.

      Furthermore, why do you want public health facilities (in this case water treatment plants) to become de facto dumping grounds for anything industry might wish to use in its operations, especially when the chemicals become more dilute and therefore more difficult and costly to extract from you drinking water?

      I want them to pay for whatever they use. If they make the chemicals harder to extract, then they should pay for that additional capability as well. This certainly shouldn't be rocket science.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Externalities Rule by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems a lot of American's have been conned into thinking "free market" means a market that is free from government oversight, it's not hard to work out that this mis-information is pushed by some corporations. What I can't work out is why so many people defend the premise.

      What the "free" in free market actually means is "everyone is free to participate", excluding corporations would by definition make it a restricted market. Also an economic "market" is not a mall or an auction room, it's a set of rules governing trade, for example a market cannot exist without property rights. If government does not define and enforce those rules, then who will?

      As to the OP, yes, one possible solution to the "tragedy of the commons" would be to privatize the commons, the problem with that is even if it worked ( in an environmental sense), the people would still lose their commons.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    22. Re:Externalities Rule by jafac · · Score: 1

      or simply make them pay for everybody who gets cancer from the benzine.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    23. Re:Externalities Rule by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      Innovation rules. That which gets in the way of it kills more than it saves.

      Severe restrictions on industry by "concerned" people 100 years ago would have left us with, maybe, a cleaner environment, but 1980-level tech instead of 2013. Net effect: Magnitudes more deaths, not fewer.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    24. Re:Externalities Rule by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      It seems a lot of American's have been conned into thinking "free market" means a market that is free from government oversight,

      I actually screwed up when I typed that. I didn't mean to invoke the free market, which wasn't really the topic. The Libertarian objection to corporations is the limited liability part. You can't rely on property rights when the power to bring a suit is so limited. The people calling the shots at a corporation don't necessarily have much skin in the game. At the very least, it seriously screws with the ideal order of things.

      Corporations are also a huge example of government regulation of the free markets, but as you say, not everyone will disagree with regulated markets. The only thing the government has done to regulate the free market that might have more impact is the concept of intellectual property. It's hard to think of anything with a larger economic impact than corporations and intellectual property.

      the people would still lose their commons.

      Yes, I don't think I'm too keen on that idea. It's also not clear to me how you would work out water use rights. I guess private contracts - seems like a mess that would ultimately require a judge to sort out anyway. Might as well sort it out with legislation instead.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    25. Re:Externalities Rule by lennier · · Score: 4, Funny

      Severe restrictions on industry by "concerned" people 100 years ago would have left us with, maybe, a cleaner environment, but 1980-level tech instead of 2013. Net effect: Magnitudes more deaths, not fewer.

      Tell me about it. I remember the 1980s. Those were hard years, man. We had to scrape by with computers with cassette drives. And we had 64 kilobytes of memory and 2400 baud modems.

      The horror still haunts me. If we'd only had iPads and Facebook, millions of young lives could have been saved!

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    26. Re:Externalities Rule by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      The average American born in 1980 - all sexes, all races - had a life expectancy of 73.7 years. The average American born in 2010 has a life expectancy of 78.7 years. A 6.7% increase sounds pretty good to me, and that's in a very developed country - it doesn't count the incredibly large improvements in the Third World. Not magnitudes, but not trivial either, especially in a world of 6 billion people.

    27. Re:Externalities Rule by anotherzeb · · Score: 1

      Swimming pool? If people are drinking the water (from wells or eating the fish) have the CEO and other directors and their families drink it every day till $x years after the fracking has stopped as a condition on their permit / license to frack

      --
      Good luck sometimes arrives disguised as bad
    28. Re:Externalities Rule by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Don't underestimate the greed of some people.
        http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.#section_2

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    29. Re:Externalities Rule by sjames · · Score: 1

      We can only hope that most CEOs won't have Midgley's constitution.

    30. Re:Externalities Rule by tofarr · · Score: 1

      Then they buy the cheapest waterway they can find and dump as much crap in it as they can - they could even start charging other people for the service of dumping crap in the water. Pity for anybody that lives anywhere near it, trying to prove their symptoms are due to the pollution.

    31. Re:Externalities Rule by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      Wow, your insight is fascinating, tell me, how deep into your arse did you have to reach to find this particular nugget?

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    32. Re:Externalities Rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were "magnitudes more deaths" in 1980 than now? How many magnitudes are we talking?

    33. Re:Externalities Rule by Summitlake · · Score: 1

      Pipe the wastewater into the executive washrooms.

  2. Adama must've... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...made Tigh the project lead.

    1. Re:Adama must've... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. Cheers.

    2. Re:Adama must've... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read this and thought "Why? I always thought Tigh was a solid upstanding officer who worked hard and managed projects well while caring about his troops, and was doing well for himself, especially as a man of color on TV in the 70's..."

      Then I thought "oh, the OTHER Tigh." And now i feel sad at how old I am.

    3. Re:Adama must've... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did I have to read this far down to get to the *first* fracking BSG reference of the whole discussion? The entire reason I support fracking is because all those fracking companies are fracking around with all that fracking groundwater and getting a lot of fracking panties in a twist. All the while I get to say fracking all day long and nobody thinks I'm a fracking weirdo for it.

    4. Re:Adama must've... by neminem · · Score: 1

      And I read through the whole thread and there are still only three. I am a sad BSG fan. (Why I read all the fracking threads - there are usually some fracking funny comments. But frack that.)

      (Where's my fracking wastewater? Over there, next to your regular one.)

    5. Re:Adama must've... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The music is in the frakking wells?

  3. Nothing to see. by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ever been to Utah? Ra-di-a-tion. Yes, indeed. You hear the most outrageous lies about it. Half-baked goggle-box do-gooders telling everybody it's bad for you. Pernicious nonsense. Everybody could stand a hundred chest X-rays a year. They ought to have them, too. When they canceled the project it almost did me in. One day my mind was full to bursting. The next day - nothing. Swept away. But I showed them. I had a lobotomy in the end. Friend of mine had one. Designer of the neutron bomb. You ever hear of the neutron bomb? Destroys people - leaves buildings standing. Fits in a suitcase. It's so small, no one knows it's there until - BLAMMO. Eyes melt, skin explodes, everybody dead. So immoral, working on the thing can drive you mad. That's what happened to this friend of mine. So he had a lobotomy. Now he's well again.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whooosh

    2. Re:Nothing to see. by compro01 · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a movie quote. Specifically, Repo Man.

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087995/quotes?qt=qt0280548

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next you're going to tell me John Wayne wasn't gay.

    4. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What an idiotic movie to quote. You are not of a movie critic background whatsoever!

      This is a serious issue, you quote the China Syndrome:

      Evan Mc Cormack: Scram the son of a bitch.

    5. Re:Nothing to see. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Informative

      John Wayne, oddly enough did perform in the last movie Howard Hughes made which was called "The Conqueror."

      It's relevant here because they chose a site that was downwind from a nuclear test site. There are pictures that exist of John Wayne holding a Geiger counter on set.

      As IMDB notes: As of November 1980, 91 of the 220 cast and crew members had developed cancer. Forty-six had died, including John Wayne, Susan Hayward, Pedro Armendáriz (who shot himself soon after learning he had terminal cancer), Agnes Moorehead, John Hoyt and director Dick Powell. The count did not include several hundred local Native Americans who played extras, or relatives of the cast and crew who visited the set, including John Wayne's son Michael Wayne.
      --
      I know my posts are good because of all the "Overrated" mods...

    6. Re:Nothing to see. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1, Redundant

      John Wayne, oddly enough did perform in the last movie Howard Hughes made which was called "The Conqueror."

      It's relevant here because they chose a site that was downwind from a nuclear test site. There are pictures that exist of John Wayne holding a Geiger counter on set.

      As IMDB notes: As of November 1980, 91 of the 220 cast and crew members had developed cancer. Forty-six had died, including John Wayne, Susan Hayward, Pedro Armendáriz (who shot himself soon after learning he had terminal cancer), Agnes Moorehead, John Hoyt and director Dick Powell. The count did not include several hundred local Native Americans who played extras, or relatives of the cast and crew who visited the set, including John Wayne's son Michael Wayne.

    7. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fucking slashdot. What the hell has happened to Slashcode???

    8. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What kind of car does your friend drive?

    9. Re:Nothing to see. by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      It's a movie quote. Specifically, Repo Man.

      Wrong movie. It is really Dr. Strangelove

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    10. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoops, I seem to have mistaken which was the GGP post. Apologies!

    11. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm quite sure 100% of those 200 would have died at some point.

    12. Re:Nothing to see. by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I was going to argue with you because, after all, all wealthy people die of cancer or heart disease these days. However, according to the wikis on that movie, a group that size would expect to have 30 individuals to have contracted some form of cancer.

      I think the bigger travesty though was the decision to cast John Wayne as Genghiz Khan.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    13. Re:Nothing to see. by jafac · · Score: 1

      the diatribe is certainly not as good without this specific performance. IMO.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    14. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, it isn't. It really is Repo Man.

      1) Nobody in Dr Strangelove says anything remotely like that - I watched it at the weekend.
      2) Were neutron bombs widely known before 1964? The concept was only developed in the late 50s, and as Dr Strangelove was "contemporary", it would have been odd to be reflecting on it in past tense.
      3) Google says Repo Man. Who are we to disagree? (Don't answer that, actually)

      Still, you just made me read all about the making of Dr Strangelove, so that's good :-)

    15. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You hear the most outrageous lies about it. Half-baked goggle-box do-gooders telling everybody it's bad for you. Pernicious nonsense.

      Yes, everyone knows that radiation is actually everyone knows that radiation is quite good for you. I suggest you take off all your clothes and lay out under the noon day sun, somewhere close to the equator, til it comes apparent to you just how much so.

    16. Re:Nothing to see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I'm reading this, I hear Cave Johnston's voice...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Johnson_%28Portal%29

    17. Re:Nothing to see. by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Wow, this is a GEEK group? For shame.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    18. Re:Nothing to see. by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Fucking slashdot. What the hell has happened to Slashcode???

      "Slashcode" was always a rat's nest made of spaghetti. Now it's a rat's nest made of spaghetti with JavaScript!

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  4. Make the drilling companies executives drink it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Very simple way to make sure companies keep waste water clean:

    Any company messing with water should be required to have the companies executives regularly drink from the waste water stream.

    This is effectivly done in all cities, in that the next city down river drinks the waste water from the city upstream.

    1. Re:Make the drilling companies executives drink it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think John Travolta tried that

    2. Re:Make the drilling companies executives drink it by khallow · · Score: 1

      This is effectivly done in all cities, in that the next city down river drinks the waste water from the city upstream.

      So it's not actually "effectively done" since no one is actually drinking their own waste water.

    3. Re:Make the drilling companies executives drink it by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Actually, in most cases we'd be better off treating our waste water and putting it right back in the drinking supply since municipal (not industrial) waste water effluent is cleaner than the bodies of water we are discharging to. Unfortunately people have this 'ick' factor with drinking their own former poo/pee despite it being cleaner than drinking our own poo/pee mixed with large quantities of nature's pollution.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    4. Re:Make the drilling companies executives drink it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My father uses to work at a plant. They ended up having to treat their tap water; it had live fly larva in it.

  5. Formula for success by Applekid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How to be successful:
    * Socialize the risks
    * Privatize the profits

    Even commercial car washes have limits on pollutants they pass forward to water treatment plants. I guess someone just conveniently forgot to include these energy companies.

    --
    More Twoson than Cupertino
    1. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      * Socialize the risks
      * Privatize the profits

      very true. Ever asked yourself why are people able to socialise the risks? Think about what it means, to socialise the risks. It means that the property rights are not enforced. It also means that government owns so called "public property" and it doesn't care about it, so this is the huge way for corporations to be able to socialise risks by using "public property" to do business there. There shouldn't be any "public property", it's an oxymoron, but if there is such a thing, then nobody should be allowed to profit from it, to do business and use it for business.

      All property where business is done must be private. If a corporation is doing business on its own property, then it the "externalities" are between the corporation and private property owners around it and "public property" around it as well, and private property must be protected for the system to work, and "public property" should not be an avenue to socialise costs, so there cannot be any way for a private property owner to shift his costs to the "public property".

      2 private property owners can come to an agreement among each other, it's their business, but if one violates the rights of the other, there should be a recourse.

      A private property owner and "public property" shouldn't even be able to enter into such an agreement. Either give up on the very idea that there is such thing as "public property" or ensure that nobody can dump their shit on it.

      Instead government does things like creating moral hazards by passing laws like 75Million USD liability cap on deep water drilling (while denying companies ability to drill in the shallow waters near the shore). So don't allow a company to drill on public property at all, and if it drills anywhere, ensure that it gets its drilling rights from private property. Have an auction where people would bid on the land and own it, but they would have to buy it at a market rate, and then ensure that they can't dump their shit on "public property" but let other private owners to deal with the private agreements.

    2. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course for those of you slashdot socialists who cannot read there is this from TFA.

      "Scientists hadn’t definitively pinpointed fracking waste as the source of this pollution. In general, researchers haven’t studied how fracking wastewater affects the quality of water leaving sewage plants."

      Maybe it's just me but that does seem important.

      And more:

      "Carl Kirby, a professor of geology at Bucknell University who studies the environmental impact of Marcellus Shale gas production, says the human health impact of elevated contaminant levels from processed fracking water is unclear, because the water the team sampled is not used directly as drinking water."

      Uh huh.

      So you want to say more study is needed to draw a conclusion fine, I will go along with that. But until then the assumption is *not* that "these energy companies" are freely allowed to pass water on to treatment plants with no limits whatsoever, which is what you imply.

      Call me crazy, but I'd prefer to wait to see the actual, you know, EVIDENCE.

    3. Re:Formula for success by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Great, now I can buy land, pollute the shit out of it and ruin for future generations. All without a worry for the law.

    4. Re:Formula for success by Grayhand · · Score: 3, Informative

      How to be successful: * Socialize the risks * Privatize the profits

      Even commercial car washes have limits on pollutants they pass forward to water treatment plants. I guess someone just conveniently forgot to include these energy companies.

      Bush Jr, he exempted them from the clean water act. They can legally dump then it's the city and county's problem.

    5. Re:Formula for success by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There shouldn't be any "public property", it's an oxymoron, but if there is such a thing, then nobody should be allowed to profit from it, to do business and use it for business.

      You have a strangely restrictive idea of who should be allowed to have property rights. If the duly elected representatives of the people determine that is prudent to, for example, build a highway, why should they not be able to purchase the land on which to build it and to operate the highway as the think best for their constituents? You see, if the road were privatized, there is a strong possibility that the highway would never be built at all, and that the owner would seek to maximize his own profit rather than promote the welfare of the general population.

      The idea of public property has existed since at least Roman times. To eliminate public property is as much a fantasy as to eliminate private property, and equally misguided.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    6. Re:Formula for success by Artraze · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that disestablishmentarian boilerplate, but last time I checked, waste water treatment wasn't "socialized" at all; you pay for it just like water.

      If your point regards the "cost" of having elevated metals in the treated water (which is emphatically not drinking water), then the problem lies in the fact that the sewage treatment they are paying for is inadequate in the eyes of a few people. If that needs to be addressed, then it needs to be addressed as better standards for industrial waste water treatment. Whether that then means that the treatment plant charges more or mandates limits on pollutants is immaterial. It's not socialized regardless.

    7. Re:Formula for success by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 2

      This Libertarian speaks the truth. The courts have so far proved fully adequate at protecting private property and the health of individuals and their livestock when affected by pollution. There is no political derision directed at the concept of externalities, and the harm of externalities can be precisely measured, and the threat of litigation has been an excellent deterrent preventing pollution in the first place, far more effective than legislation and regulation. So there is really no reason why we shouldn't adopt this radical ideology, because it has never failed.

    8. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Of-course, it's your land. As long as your pollution stays on it and doesn't cross to the neighbouring property owners.

    9. Re:Formula for success by DetriusXii · · Score: 1

      This is what happened during the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Politicians and other speculators would by up land on the pathway to the CPR and ask the CPR for inflated prices when the CPR would build the railway. Of course some speculators got shafted when the CPR chose to redirect their railway away from the speculators' land.

    10. Re:Formula for success by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      So even though no one will ever be able to use the land again you are ok with it?

      Try to remember that one day it will cross onto someone else's property, but I will be dead by then.
      Those steel barrels I keep all that nuclear waste in won't last forever, but since I will be dead before they burst I am ok.

    11. Re:Formula for success by thoth · · Score: 1

      This rant is a clear example of why libertarian thinking is total bullshit. This just won't work in the real world.

      Forcing corporations to only do business on its own property, and only deal with externalities with immediate neighbors? That might sound great, but it worthless. 3 seconds into this paradise of greedy-self-regulation and all the corporations involved will simply setup off-shore holding companies and do all the dirty work through under-funded contractors. E.g. BP wouldn't drill anymore, their subsidiary based out of the country would contract the drilling to Joe's Fracking Company, possibly another division of themselves, who in turn would only be capitalized to some absurd low amount, like $10 million. Then when Joe's Fracking Company fucks up and shits all over the place, they can only be sued for $10 million before declaring bankruptcy and escaping the harm they inflicted.

      And as for there being no such thing are public property - what? Corporations sure as hell didn't gain that land via winning wars, conquest, shoving the original people off and taking over by force (granted, not such a proud moment in history). Why the fuck should corporations have claim to something they had zero part in getting? I wouldn't sell corporations jack unless they plan on having their own military and court system to defend their claim. Instead, they should LEASE the land they use, subject to annual rents that float based on their profit margin. Don't like it? Too damn bad, come to a private arrangement elsewhere, the catch-all solution to every libertarian problem.

    12. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Roads are a private matter, like all other businesses, roads are also business. Actually for the longest time roads didn't need anything special, where bridges were needed, people built and operate them, special type of coating (asphalt, concrete), those were not necessary really for most roads. Today there are plenty private companies that build and operate roads and are doing it profitably as well, so they know it's not an unsustainable subsidy, there is a reason why that road is there, it's there because there is a business case for it. Forcing people to pay taxes to pay for roads they never use is not a good strategy for long term sustainability. Taxes always grow, government costs always rise, roads are just an excuse to grab power. Really, what is "interstate" Highway 1 doing in Hawaii except for providing the federal government with leverage over the control of the state?

      So no, we don't need public roads, we don't need public schools either. Then again, we don't need public insurance or public energy policy or public food policy or public medical policy, or public housing policy, or public banking and finance policy, or public policy on money, etc. All of these are private decisions, made every day by millions of people. If there is a case for a road or a bridge, a person will want to make money by providing that infrastructure, same goes for everything else. At least this way the scarce resources are not wasted on global ideas that have no merit.

      I wouldn't allow government to do any of it, I wouldn't allow government to build roads, fund education or health care or any type of insurance (moral hazard). I wouldn't allow government to get involved in money definition and creation and setting of price for money. I wouldn't allow government to get involved in housing or energy and even the Moon program would not have any government money in it. Then again, with my approach to government I would never be in it, I wouldn't give anybody any preferential treatment, there wouldn't be any programs but also there wouldn't be any taxes. The government would only do the absolute bare minimum that is authorised by the Constitution. But I can't be in government doing this, the people want subsidies, they want to steal from others, they don't care how they are given the subsidies, as long as they get them. To the mob it doesn't matter what the costs are and who bears them at this very moment.

      In the long run that approach is self destructing but the mob doesn't care, so it only votes for people who promise stuff, who have 'vision', who offer 'solutions', who have silver bullets.

      There are no silver bullets and government shouldn't be in a position to promise them.

    13. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      So even though no one will ever be able to use the land again you are ok with it?

      - you clearly think that a land owner is incapable of doing his own cost benefit analysis. There are lands that are not going to be mined on, they are very good for agriculture. There are lands that will have miners on them, there are resources there that will be mined one way or another.

      By only allowing people to do business on their own private property we get rid of the externalities, which means of the ability to socialise costs. Once a person owns the land, it's his. If it's not, then we don't have rights. By buying and destroying a piece of property the owner makes a calculation that it will be more profitable to do that rather than to maintain that property. If he is right, then he allowed the economy to get the maximum effective output from that property at that time.

      Yes, if a person buys and "destroys" a piece of property, he should have the right to do that, he paid for it.

      Somebody will have to hold those nuclear barrels. Somebody will own that property at any time, it's not like once the owner disappears there is no other owner.

    14. Re:Formula for success by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Nope, I am talking about storing nuclear waste in my basement. It will leak after I am dead.

      I have no offspring, nor family. There is no other owner, no one will buy property housing leaking nuclear waste barrels.

      It will begin to contaminate the ground water.

    15. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could pour out the nuclear waste and use those barrels to dispose of the rest of the 100,000,000 newborns after we run out of sulfuric acid.

    16. Re:Formula for success by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 2

      There are no silver bullets and government shouldn't be in a position to promise them.

      Yes there is. The government could abolish itself except for a very narrow range of criteria concerned with the enforcement of property rights, with all public property auctioned off to individuals, and all our problems will be solved.

    17. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahahahahahaha.

    18. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if there were silver bullets, who would want them? I only load rhodium bullets in my gun, and you're a fucking socialist moron if you don't do the same.

    19. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      So are you under impression that the property of people who die and have no descendants just sits there? If you are storing nuclear waste in your basement, you are getting a revenue stream for it, it's business like any other and if you die, your land will be bought again, probably at an auction. Somebody will make money figuring out what to do with it next. There is value for everything, the only question is the price. So it can be valuable to buy a piece of land with nuclear materials on it and figure out how to keep using it to store more nuclear materials or how to move the materials to another storage facility that somebody else is running and re-purpose the land, etc. Clearly you are not thinking in the right terms, it's called restructuring. Everything can be restructured.

    20. Re:Formula for success by headwes · · Score: 1

      What happens when the owner of the nuclear waste dies? Who pays the storage fee then?

    21. Re:Formula for success by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The property is sold, in this case there will be no buyers.

      I am storing it for a one time payment. That way I get the most money now, and who cares about after I am dead.

      When those barrels start leaking into the groundwater the lawsuits will be for far more than my property is worth.

      The point is property can be ruined to the point total loss of value. Right now we call them superfund sites. Under your system they would just sit and leak. With no owner to sue the adjoining property owners would be screwed.

    22. Re:Formula for success by hurfy · · Score: 1

      So even though no one will ever be able to use the land again you are ok with it?

      - you clearly think that a land owner is incapable of doing his own cost benefit analysis. There are lands that are not going to be mined on, they are very good for agriculture. There are lands that will have miners on them, there are resources there that will be mined one way or another.

      By only allowing people to do business on their own private property we get rid of the externalities, which means of the ability to socialise costs. Once a person owns the land, it's his. If it's not, then we don't have rights. By buying and destroying a piece of property the owner makes a calculation that it will be more profitable to do that rather than to maintain that property. If he is right, then he allowed the economy to get the maximum effective output from that property at that time.

      Yes, if a person buys and "destroys" a piece of property, he should have the right to do that, he paid for it.

      Somebody will have to hold those nuclear barrels. Somebody will own that property at any time, it's not like once the owner disappears there is no other owner.

      Stop paying taxes....

      So you plan on eliminating property taxes...I'll forget to pay the excise taxes on what i take out.

      Let me guess you don't plan on having those taxes either.

      I'll just dump my barrels on your land when you take a vacation, or maybe put your name on em and dump em elsewhere. You don't mind using your resources to prove it was me. Even then so what..i have no money (accessable to YOU) I do have a piece of land you could take................

    23. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      All of your complaints come from one source: ability of a person to set up a legal front that hides him from personal responsibility, which is another case of moral hazard created by the government.

      Did you know that prior to 1970s the banks were all private partnerships? Today you won't find any in operation in USA for example, did you know that? At the same time no banker is charged with anything anymore for a number of reasons, all of which are related to lack of personal responsibility that the government 'insures' against.

    24. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      One time payment does not work for these, but let's say you do that.

      If you don't have insurance and the 'barrels' pollute the ground while you are still alive, let's say you actually declare yourself bankrupt, you lose everything, that property is not yours, but you are free to go (probably, unless there is a criminal case, where your behaviour actually causes physical damage to others, and then it becomes a criminal matter).

      However the private property is there, it's contaminated with some nuclear material and "nobody wants it". If that's the case then the private property owners around the property can argue that the responsibility is with the companies that accepted this type of service for the 'one time payment', it's there pollution that is on the ground, polluting the property in question, affecting the rest of the property owners.

      The companies that stored the nuclear material would be liable, it's a situation that is very much the same as the BP situation. Nuclear facilities that have to outsource nuclear waste already have insurance.

      Also private property owners around this property should have insurance, if they don't it's also their problem.

      Basically you are trying to come up with the most stretched example, but even this example doesn't take into account all of the costs of dealing with private nuclear facilities that the pollution would come from. The pollution that a nuclear facility creates is still the responsibility of that nuclear facility if worst case scenario that you are trying to contrive happens in real life.

      What we do know is that in our actual world there WAS a case of nuclear contamination of various property, including private and it was done by a government and people lost their property and they had no recourse against that government. People died and the government didn't give a shit, nobody was held really responsible for all that loss.

    25. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this a joke? All our problems solved, just like that? What happens when you lose your job, but can't pay the toll to exit your house? Are you then auctioned off to the highest bidder as well?

    26. Re:Formula for success by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the problem. What if nobody wants the nuclear barrels? Who gets them when the owner dies? The next of kin? How does that make any logical sense? "Your uncle passed away and didn't have any heirs, so now this is your problem." This is exactly the kind of short-sighted thinking which is causing people to act without regard to the far future.

      You don't get it. Property rights cannot protect the planet's future from the present inhabitants, because the present inhabitants are incapable of assigning value to the planet's future. The true value of a piece of land is infinite, because it will outlast ten generations of you. Yet, you only paid a price negotiated on your personal value based on your short life. And you want to destroy it, because you don't care about the far future.

      Property rights only makes sense for perishable products, where the source of the product can be traced to the efforts of specific humans. Nobody is worthy of owning mineral rights to a piece of land. The only reason mineral rights exists is because some government assigned mineral rights to someone at some point in the past. Mineral rights don't exist in nature, and there is nothing honest about them.

    27. Re:Formula for success by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      This isn't a stretched example. Any example of pollution comes up with the same conclusion.

      You mention companies, but companies die just like people die. Often, they die even more quickly, and there is nobody to inherit their liabilities, or the liabilities exceed anybody's limited stake in the company.

    28. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      As I mentioned a number of times in this thread, this type of moral hazard is created by the government, which provides people with ability to hide against personal liability behind a corporate front.

    29. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I explained it in this thread, it's not next of kin if they are not assuming the assets and liabilities, it's the original source of the pollution, which is a nuclear facility, that bought the services of this person to store waste. It is actually still their waste, read the comment.

    30. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, people would never die and companies would never go bankrupt if not for government.

    31. Re:Formula for success by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Sure, companies go bankrupt, people die, but without moral hazard of hiding from personal liability people would make different decisions and they very likely would also have adequate liability insurance.

    32. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would a dead person care enough about liability to carry insurance?

    33. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are going to die eventually, why do you bother eating today?

    34. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you liberal fucks are often so happy to point out; the president doesn't write legislation.

    35. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I have something to lose if I stop eating. After I die I have nothing to lose, which is why I don't plan on continuing any of my insurance policies after my death.

    36. Re:Formula for success by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Property is a pure government constuct. All land belonged to the commons in first place and became owned either by shameless acquiris quodcumquae rapis, or by military conquest.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    37. Re:Formula for success by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It fails when you can't afford to sue a huge multinational corporation or when it costs less to pay for your damaged health than the net profit.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    38. Re:Formula for success by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      The government would only do the absolute bare minimum that is authorised by the Constitution.

      If you actually read that document, you will see that the "absolute bare minimum" explicitly includes construction of "post roads" (Article 1, Section 8).

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    39. Re:Formula for success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush Jr, he exempted them from the clean water act. They can legally dump then it's the city and county's problem.

      The solution is simple, re-instate the law. Oh sorry, citizens don't own any politicians do we. We need to take back our government. Watch what our so called representatives do and start recall petitions when they favour corporations over their constituency.

    40. Re:Formula for success by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      Paying to "own" land for the pathetic duration of your life gives you little right to permanently pollute it. The idea that it does is egotistical in the extreme.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  6. Re:Flouride.. by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  7. The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Eugriped3z · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So that simple-minded corporations won't confuse themselves wondering if it might be cheaper to risk getting caught.

    There's no excuse for allowing energy companies, some of the most profitable in existence to off-load (externalize) the cost of their operations and subsidize their profits by burdening public utilities with the clean up expense, especially when those facilities were never intended to deal with substances like those used in the 'proprietary mixtures' that fracking companies have protected from the prying eyes of the public.

    Setting standards that require these morons to clean up their own mess, and attaching penalties for failure that put violartors out of business is the only thing U.S. corporations understand.

    1. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by AuMatar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Fines don't do it. Jailtime for CEOs would. My rule of thumb- any crime bad enough to be fined a 100K dollars should include 6 months of jailtime for a CxO or the president of the board of directors. For every 100K after that, add 6 months for another of them. No parole. THAT would get companies to clean up their act.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This polution has been exempted from EPA regulation since the Bush era.

    3. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

      Fines don't do it.

      Agreed. If that were effective, BP would be really hurting right now.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    4. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How about similar sentences courts are handing out for file sharing?

    5. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by sribe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fines don't do it. Jailtime for CEOs would. My rule of thumb- any crime bad enough to be fined a 100K dollars should include 6 months of jailtime for a CxO or the president of the board of directors. For every 100K after that, add 6 months for another of them. No parole. THAT would get companies to clean up their act.

      No, it would merely limit fines actually imposed to $99,999.99 ;-)

    6. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming the industrial waste water treatment plants actually charge for the service of treating this water, most likely as defined in a contract. This isn't typical residential or commercial water treatment. Once the plant takes delivery of the water hasn't it become the treatment plant's problem (as long as the water meets what they are contractually obligated to treat)? The plant should not be taking delivery of the water if they can't properly treat it. If they need more / better equipment to treat the water they need to adjust the price that they charge the fracking operation to treat the water to cover the costs. Now if the fracking water contains pollutants above and beyond what it's supposed to contain via contract and the treatment plant wasn't informed it's a completely different story.

      It's sort of like blaming me if I put out perfectly normal trash and my garbage service picks it up and dumps it in to a river instead of a landfill.

    7. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Not nearly enough. Every investor needs to share responsibility.

      You cannot finance an operation and have no liability towards who it kills/effects.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    8. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fines don't do it. Jailtime for CEOs would.

      Not in White Collar prisons either, put them in state blue collar prisons and let the population know they put things into the bodies of children. After all, partial truth works for them don't it?

    9. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Applekid · · Score: 1

      How about similar sentences courts are handing out for file sharing?

      If file sharing is linked to poisoning thousands for profit, sure.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    10. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Grayhand · · Score: 1

      Fines don't do it. Jailtime for CEOs would. My rule of thumb- any crime bad enough to be fined a 100K dollars should include 6 months of jailtime for a CxO or the president of the board of directors. For every 100K after that, add 6 months for another of them. No parole. THAT would get companies to clean up their act.

      Under those rules the head of BP would get life on the day he was appointed.

    11. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      The CxO/board at the time the crimes were committed of course. Not at the time of the ruling, that would be ex post facto.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    12. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The plant should not be taking delivery of the water if they can't properly treat it.

      Right. And that's why

      in May, 2011, the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection asked that the stateâ(TM)s treatment plants voluntarily stop processing fracking wastewater.

      From my reading of the article, the wastewater plants were not doing their job in processing these wastes and asked to stop. So, as you were saying the polluters here are the treatment plants, although it's possible the oil companies knew the plants couldn't treat the waste. In that case they maybe be liable. You're not allowed to pawn waste off like that or everything would be shell companies dumping illegally.

      Even if you normal trash company doesn't tell you you can't include used motor oil or radioactive waste, it's still illegal for you to give it to them if you know it will no be properly disposed of.

    13. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh no.

      That is the very definition of incorporation.

    14. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Dynedain · · Score: 1

      No, that completely destroys the point of incorporating and would hurt small companies immensely.

      Instead, there should be fines appropriate to the scale of the problem and the scale of the company. Make them big enough and the shareholders will start suing the board of directors for the screwups. Heads will roll, and reputations will be destroyed.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    15. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by jovius · · Score: 1

      Following the current paradigm we would end up having high class privatized prisons full of CEOs working at a lower rate.

    16. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by jafac · · Score: 1

      I don't think that jailtime would do it either.
      They'd just find some schmuck to take the fall, slap a CxO title on him, then send him into court when the time comes. Cost of doing business.

      It's really about the shareholders, and especially, the majority shareholders, and the people who actually make these evil decisions - and these people are able to dodge their liability specifically because that is what Corporations were invented for. A corporation is a piece of paper, which is a GIFT from the government that says: "do whatever the fuck you want and make money at it."

      And we're surprised that be relieving people of responsibility - they stop acting responsible?

      In this case - government actually IS the problem. But not in the way most people think. If we attacked corporate charters and business licenses (etc) - that would solve these kinds of problems. But if you think about it, it opens up a whole nother can of worms about whether or not we're in a capitalist system. Frankly, I think it's high time we start having that discussion. Well, actually, it's probably far too late.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    17. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstood what the GP means by "liability". He didn't mean legal liability, but moral liability.

    18. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sole purpose of incorporation is to insulate the people from liability fro their actions (financial and otherwise). Our prof. at the Uni thought that was the greatest invention ever, greater than electricity and the wheel combined.

    19. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fines don't do it. Jailtime for CEOs would.

      YES! And since these CxO's all pay "experts" that claim their pollution is at "safe" levels they wouldn't mind eating and drinking contaminated food products while in prison would they?

    20. Re:The Solution to Pollution is Huge Fines by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      THe original point was to insulate non-managing investors from liability, which allowed much larger partnerships than normal to form. The original corporations were partnerships between a small set of people, and they jointly owned liability and the company. Incorporation allowed them to bring on partners who just gave them money and were otherwise not involved in day to day business, making it easier to raise money. But the people who ran the companies were still liable for their decisions.

      This would be bringing us back to that idea. If you make a decision that breaks a law, you're liable.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
  8. Re:Flouride.. by thebigmacd · · Score: 2

    Fluoride is a naturally occurring component of ground water.

  9. OriginOil Has Solution (OOIL) "CleanFrac" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.originoil.com/

  10. "Sometimes...." Realy? by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Sometimes the gas producers dispose of this fracking wastewater by sending it to treatment plants that deal with sewage and water from other industrial sources.

    And Here I thought I heard that they *usually* just dumped it down their unused wells... In fact, that was where MOST of this horrible liquid waste ended up, a few miles down..

    Apparently this is a slow news day...

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  11. Stndard m/o by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Privatize the profits
    Socialize the costs

  12. Re:Do your fraking job by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    RTFA - they are and the treatment plant can't handle that level of wate. Try again genius.

  13. Re:"Sometimes...." Realy? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    Define "sometimes?" But never mind the treatment plants can't handle the waste.

  14. Re:Flouride.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Precious bodily fluids, get it right.

  15. Re:Do your fraking job by DrGamez · · Score: 1

    But what if the entire story and point of the article is... they can't do their job right now? Is it not worth knowing that the fraking wastewater isn't being treated at these places?

  16. Civilisation by Teun · · Score: 1
    All what's needed is some civilisation.
    Because in a civilised society the polluter pays, he'll have to pay so much for polluting that working clean becomes the logic and easy solution.

    The oil industry has plenty of money and the solutions are since years on the shelf, pumping it back into this or a depleted reservoir is generally the cleanest way to get rid of the crud.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    1. Re:Civilisation by SteveFoerster · · Score: 2

      Wait, you mean send engineer units in to clean up the polluted squares?

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
  17. Fracking is good technoglogy by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The only problem is idiots that don't want to use it responsibly. Fracking makes energy cheaply. That's a good idea.

    The problem is it has clear environmental risks that the frackers don't want to discuss.

    They don't want to tell you what they put into the ground (because they are afraid people will sue them - or steal their wonderful business secrets).

    Being in business means you get sued. Deal with it. As for business secrets - ever hear of patents????

    The truth is that Frackers are having problems not because the technology they use is more dangerous than other tech, but because they are so damn greedy they want to do so without taking reasonable safety and anti-pollution precautions. Let's be honest here - the EPA is not know for being a hard-ass. They let people get away with amazingly evil misdeeds before they take action.

    I am all in favor of fracking - if they publicly reveal everything they pump into the ground and take reasonable steps to ameliorate the problems.

    Yes this will cost more. But fracking will still be cheap. We have a right to cheap CLEAN energy, not just cheap energy.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by wjwlsn · · Score: 1

      FWIW, Congress told the EPA to study this. Their first progress report was issued December 2012.

      http://epa.gov/hfstudy/

      I've only skimmed the report, so I can't be sure, but it looks like the report is long on methodology but short on actual results.

      --
      Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
    2. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by characterZer0 · · Score: 2

      I am all in favor of fracking - if they publicly reveal everything they pump into the ground and take reasonable steps to ameliorate the problems.

      You probably will not be in favor of fracking once you find out what they pump into the ground and what they consider "reasonable steps".

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    3. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was merely grinning at the lameness of this post, until I got to this:
      " the EPA is not know for being a hard-ass"

      They have jailed people and kicked them out of the own homes. They have shut down businesses and financially crippled many enterprising entities. They most definitely can be 'hard asses'.

    4. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by Grayhand · · Score: 1

      " Let's be honest here - the EPA is not know for being a hard-ass" Honestly the EPA is a neutered dog with his teeth pulled. For all the spills and air pollution how often do you hear about fines? Sure they made an example of BP in some ways but they even let them pull out before the clean up was done. Dig down on most of the beaches and there's still oil. The bottom is dead and still covered in oil. Those dispersants they were so fanatical about spraying were to make it sink below the surface not to make the oil go away. Once the visible surface oil was gone BP ran like a scalded cat. For all the right wing claims of the EPA being too tough the opposite is truth. The EPA is nearly useless and even as beaten as they are the right still wants them gone because they want zero oversight.

    5. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by Chalnoth · · Score: 2

      Sure, it's great tech as long as you don't mind a few people having flammable tap water.

      The basic mechanism of frakking guarantees that there will be broad contamination of any aquifers near the frakking site.

      Oh, and let's not forget that frakking is yet another way to accelerate global warming. There is no possible way to compensate for that aspect of this horrible, horrible practice. We need to be getting off of fossil fuels, not investigating new ways of dredging up every last hydrocarbon stored under the Earth.

    6. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      Being in business means you get sued. Deal with it.

      The sad thing is that it seems a lot of people actually agree with this.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    7. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For all the spills and air pollution how often do you hear about fines?

      Frequently. Here's a map. Those dots you see are aggregate. Zoom in and they bloom into many, many enforcement actions, which are nearly always fines. The rest of your post is nonsense based on your false premise.

      You don't hear about this stuff because you isolate yourself from sources that cover EPA abuse.

    8. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by rts008 · · Score: 1

      I am all in favor of fracking - if they publicly reveal everything they pump into the ground and take reasonable steps to ameliorate the problems.

      Yes this will cost more. But fracking will still be cheap. We have a right to cheap CLEAN energy, not just cheap energy.

      I'm confused by this...
      How do you get CLEAN energy by way of any process that involves fracking?
      Is CLEAN an acronym for something that excludes hydrocarbons(which are notoriously not clean energy) as an energy source?

      The mind boggles........

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    9. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by infinitelink · · Score: 1

      They let people get away with amazingly evil misdeeds before they take action.

      Like breathing out a pollutant (CO2). Let's put it another way: the EPA is just one among a number of tools used by the politicians to beat at oponents and score points with the dickheads who vote them in (left or right), even if it means (logically implying if not explicitly saying) that you shouldn't have a right to exist, the politicians and their tools will do it, when it becomes convenient. I am all for forcing these companies to come clean, upgrade the plants, patent (and disclose) the chemicals and even--dare I say--be checked every time they're pumping these down into the ground, whether the compositions reported matched what's actually going in there, and then...extracting it all back out, washing the damn caverns and, I would hope, replacing the extraction with SOMETHING to stabilize the geology which (1) would be opposed to hell (2) cost a lot more for them (3) be passed along to consumers, but...would mean less crap seeping into the water for everyone, for subsequent generations...but let's not pretend the EPA is benign. No government agency is--the administrative branch, in fact, is actively hostile, and I say that despite living with a Fed.

      --
      Intelligent idiots are we. | Evil men do not understand justice.
    10. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by infinitelink · · Score: 1

      We have a right to cheap CLEAN energy, not just cheap energy.

      Bullshit. Why were you given any modpoints? There is no such right, and Energy has never been "clean'--even those damn solar panels require a ton of waste and dirty stuff before they go into production. Your own friggin' body produces a ton of shit (literally!) to make and then use energy. Put another way: you have a relative right not to be unduly harmed out of negligence or willful knowledge of harmful consequences of actions taken anyways, without serious efforts to mitigate them.

      --
      Intelligent idiots are we. | Evil men do not understand justice.
    11. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gas is, in all fairness, much, much cleaner than coal -- CLEAN is a relative reference to a worst-of-all-options. It's like saying a politician is "righteous" because at least they haven't holocausted any ethnic minorities lately.

    12. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      The basic mechanism of frakking guarantees that there will be broad contamination of any aquifers near the frakking site.

      No it doesn't. This is an area that requires independent reviews by people experienced in the field (like geologists). I'm not surprised you think this, as most people have no idea how geology works. But take a minute to think about it, if geology worked like you think why isn't there oil in every aquifer where a well has been drilled? (most of the US BTW) The simple answer is it doesn't work like you think and this stuff can be done easily and without contamination as long as the proper geological investigations are done.

      The companies putting in these wells don't want to contaminate ground water and they don't want to lose their hydrocarbons into the aquifer either because both of those scenarios cost them money. I'm skeptical of Fracking, but I fully believe with the proper controls and experience it can be done with little to no risk and the benefits are quite amazing (we've reduced coal consumption significantly).

    13. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      Because the process itself involves fracturing the bedrock, it basically guarantees that the resulting methane is spread far and wide. Now, sure, if it so happens that the nearby aquifer is protected by some very thick rock, then maybe it will be protected. But in practice this often doesn't appear to be the case. Your statement on profits assumes they care about how rapidly they deplete the resource.

      Regardless, it's a bad thing to do no matter what the local environmental concerns, because it can do nothing but accelerate global warming.

    14. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      You believe yourself to be a geologist? You don't even understand the basics. What follows is rough descriptions intended for lay people.

      Aquifers are often shallow at anywhere from 50-400 feet down (much more than that and they aren't very functional as far as pumping the water). To even be an aquifer and trap the water they need to be sealed between impervious (water proof) layers, usually clays. The shale formations are solid rock, surrounded by other geological layers, sometimes clay, sometimes granite or sandstone or pretty much any other layer and frequently MUCH deeper (some are more than a mile). Shale is composed of compressed hardened silt and clay (depending on the shale may soften in contact with water or remain impervious). Depending on the formation it could be highly fractured or fairly solid.

      Shale generally forms from mud beds or flats that are overtime covered with other sediments and buried where the mud is compressed to form shale rock, the gas containing shales had organic life in them when they were covered and converted to stone, as the life decayed gas became embedded in the stone, the gas is released when the stone is fractured, the higher the fracture the better the gas release. Fracking is injecting sand and water under high pressure (sand blasting) to fracture an area of the shale and release the trapped gas. Generally the only exit for the gas is the hole drilled into the shale to inject the fracking solution. Steel piping caries the gas from the shale void to the surface.

      To get to the shale they may need to drill through an aquifer, they use drilling mud while actively drilling, this mud is usually a heavy weight clay or silt based mud and is generally impervious to water transmission, as they drill through the aquifer the mud provides a seal and after drilling is complete and the drill extracted the well head is held open by steel piping inserted into the drill hole to hold it open, this pipe is welded (or screwed together) into a continuous pipe to the well head. I believe the processes requires inserting the piping be inserted before fracking to provide a pressure sealed pipe to convey the highly pressurized liquid sand mixture.

      I don't know how common it is to have an aquifer above a shale formation but I'd bet where possible the wells are drilled outside the aquifer because of the complication drilling through the aquifer provides (the aquifer water is sometimes under pressure and complicates drilling) But depending on the aquifer, it might not even be an issue.

      At the depths they are generally drilling at for these shales there are billions of pounds of rock trying to close any fractures or holes. Water, gas and oil don't generally wander around at those kind of pressures and depths. Geology is complicated, I suggest you study it before you start assuming your day to day experience gives you the knowledge to understand millions of years of sedimentation and the effects of miles of depth.

      If fracking was dangerous any type of drilling would be. This is an art that has been under continuous and active improvement for almost 100 years. Drilling is well understood, if they can drill an oil/gas well 5 miles deep (through an aquifer too) and not spill a drop of oil/gas they can certainly extract gas from rock without losing billions of pounds of gas to an aquifer. We have an over active fear or new things (partly due to big screwups) but most of the hype about fracking dangers has been proved to be propaganda (the gasland tap water gas has been proven to be fake, in that the gas was present long before fracking). Methane isn't nearly as dangerous as oil, it's non-toxic and the only risk involves the rather obvious fire and explosion (and suffocation if it replaces all the air).

      All that said, I'm concerned about what they do with these fracking fluids after use. Some of the chemicals involved are not something you want dumped into your streams and rivers. And I'd like better regulation and inspection (but not the bat shit crazy opposition).

    15. Re:Fracking is good technoglogy by sycodon · · Score: 1

      pearls before swine, my friend, pearls before swine.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  18. Frack more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the USA should increase fracking. All over the country.

    1. Re:Frack more by Neuroelectronic · · Score: 0

      Then most of the states will start to look like an Iraqi oil field, and we can send our troops home!

  19. Re:Unemployed? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

    Even if your thesis were correct, extraction industries are among the least compelling examples you could choose:

    Historically, even your hardcore actually-in-Soviet-Russia-not-as-in-joking-about-it communists successfully managed to run big mining and drilling towns(if anything, more people might have been employed due to questionable capital allocation and lower available tech levels). Minerals are like nature's subsidies, you can get net-positive energy output just for digging a hole in the ground! If the situation is structured so that you don't internalize the externalities, even better.

    There are a few ways to fuck up a local extraction boom: if the resource in question doesn't ship well, you are at the mercy of regional demand and sometimes things are so bad that people just don't want what you dig up. If the resource does ship well, you can end up with a situation where(by either market or state coercion, it's been done both ways) the locals end up living in the tailings pile and the surplus value gets shipped out(see also Appalachian coal country, the Niger Delta, Zambian central province, etc.). Finally, you can either exhaust your mine, or get scooped by somebody else who has a much higher quality one(England, for instance, isn't exactly a coal-mining power anymore).

    If you want to talk the virtues of capitalist enterprise, try something with a much more complex supply chain, returns to innovation, need for a keen grasp of customer demands, and no history of communists pulling it off. Seriously.

  20. Holy Hell by sycodon · · Score: 0

    " Center for Healthy Environments and Communities " aka "We Don't Want Any Technology That Will Increase the Use of Fossil Fuels Organization".

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Holy Hell by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      We Don't Want Any Technology That Will Increase the Use of Fossil Fuels Organization

      Sounds reasonable to me.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    2. Re:Holy Hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is the glass and steel climate controlled edifice this work emerged from. Right next to "Hot Metal " bridge in downtown Pittsburgh. Who must have once lived here to name a thing thus?

      La La land office people indulging a gentle decline from the comfort of their ancestors wealth.

    3. Re:Holy Hell by lennier · · Score: 1

      We Don't Want Any Technology That Will Increase the Use of Fossil Fuels Organization

      Sounds reasonable to me.

      Theoretically, we could make fossil fuel usage sustainable. We just have to figure out how to make more fossils.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  21. Re:Flouride.. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

    deadly neurotoxin? Posh posh. People willingly inject far more dangerous neurotoxins all the time.

  22. Fracking Exempt from Clean Water Act by jweller13 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Fracking was explicitly exempted from the federal Clean Water Act http://sites.duke.edu/sjpp/2011/ensuring-safe-drinking-water-in-the-age-of-hydraulic-fracturing/

  23. I think we all know who to blame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But I'm not sure if she knows herself.

  24. Re:Unemployed? by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

    Corporate Socialism, of course, is AOK!

  25. Re:Flouride.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Of, for fuck's sake...

    Fluoride salts are used to enhance the strength of teeth by the formation of fluorapatite, a naturally occurring component of tooth enamel.[8][9] Although sodium fluoride is also used to fluoridate water and, indeed, is the standard by which other water-fluoridation compounds are gauged, hexafluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6) and its salt sodium hexafluorosilicate (Na2SiF6) are more commonly used additives in the U.S.[10] Toothpaste often contains sodium fluoride to prevent cavities.[11] Alternatively, sodium fluoride is used as a cleaning agent, e.g. as a "laundry sour".[7] A variety of specialty chemical applications exist in synthesis and extractive metallurgy. It reacts with electrophilic chlorides including acyl chlorides, sulfur chlorides, and phosphorus chloride.[12] Like other fluorides, sodium fluoride finds use in desilylation in organic synthesis. The fluoride is the reagent for the synthesis of fluorocarbons.

    The lethal dose for a 70 kg (154 lb) human is estimated at 5–10 g.[7] Sodium fluoride is classed as toxic by both inhalation (of dusts or aerosols) and ingestion.[13] In high enough doses, it has been shown to affect the heart and circulatory system.

    Consumption of large amounts of caffeine – usually more than 250 mg per day – can lead to a condition known as caffeinism. Caffeinism usually combines caffeine dependency with a wide range of unpleasant physical and mental conditions including nervousness, irritability, restlessness, insomnia, headaches, and heart palpitations after caffeine use.[18]

    It takes five to ten THOUSAND times as much sodium flouride to do what coffee will. That 5-10 grams? Swallow ONE gram of benzine and see what happens to you.

    Sorry, dork, your tinfoil hat tea party sites may swallow your bullshit, but there are a few here at slashdot who are a little better educated. How about you leave, and go back to NASCAR.com or wherever the hell you came from.

    Who gave whoever modded that idiot up mod points????

  26. Why do they accept it? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    Why is the waste water treatment plant accepting waste they cannot treat?

    Don't accept it and make the driller send it to someone who can handle it if you can't. Seems simple enough to me.

    1. Re:Why do they accept it? by PRMan · · Score: 2

      Why is the waste water treatment plant accepting waste they cannot treat?

      Don't accept it and make the driller send it to someone who can handle it if you can't. Seems simple enough to me.

      You seem to be misunderstanding water...and gravity...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:Why do they accept it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That might seem simple enough to you, but you've not been in the WWT business. It's full of crooks. We call them customers.

      Most responsible companies deal with wastewater as responsibly as they can and minimize it whenever possible.

      However, a lot of companies treat it as if it's like going to the dump.

      You get a sample of some WWT, send it to the lab, work up a quote, and everything is great. Then you go pick it up - and it's got 3 times the benzene and a bunch of chrome that wasn't in the sample. By that time you've got it in your plant and the customer denies it's different than the sample and flatly refuses to pay any more than was quoted.

      You deal with it as best you can because the margins are slim to begin with, you are just trying to stay afloat, and competition is plentiful. Not only are there other legitimate operators that will take it if you don't, there are plenty of crappy ones that don't care about if they can get by with it, and your customer always has a free alternative - illegal dumping. Sure, it's awful if you get caught, but pretty freaking easy to do...

    3. Re:Why do they accept it? by lennier · · Score: 2

      You seem to be misunderstanding water...and gravity...

      So-called "gravity" is a socialist myth. A vast invisible centrally-mandated field stretching across the galaxy, coercing otherwise herorically isolated atoms of matter to collide together and "cooperate" by force? Only hard-core Marxists could believe in such an economy-destroying fiction.

      No, in the libertarian space utopia, every lifeform provides their own personal collection of photon and graviton particles, powered solely by their own sweat and gumption, and no particle interacts with any other except by mutual consent and with appropriate exchange of vector bosons at a rate determined by the free market.

      There'd be no problems with waste disposal in such a society! Untreated fracking discharge would simply float off into space, in damp squelchy globules, until it met a species that could profit handsomely by digesting it. And in return they would spit out small ingots of gold bullion accelerated to roughly 0.99 lightspeed, which would form the basis of innovative interstellar financial and strategic warfare solutions.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    4. Re:Why do they accept it? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      So don't process it until you test a sample from the actual shipment. If they dont want to pay for treatment you send it back.

  27. Re:Unemployed? by tragedy · · Score: 1

    An old-fashioned oil boom.

    Don't fall too much in love with booms. Let's not ignore that the other end of any such boom is a bust. Entire towns, or even cities can spring up and, perhaps within a decade, end up as ghost towns when the jobs vanish along with the resource. It also doesn't have anything to do with socialism vs capitalism. When a natural resource is exploited and people are needed to do the work, jobs are created regardless of what system you're working under.

  28. Re:Flouride.. by darkfeline · · Score: 1

    I'm no expert, but perhaps you're just spouting FUD? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

  29. BS alarmist article by avandesande · · Score: 1

    The waste plant has to meet effluent standards, not drinking water standards. Why would you confuse the two? All waste treatment plants operate under this model.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
    1. Re:BS alarmist article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you confuse the two?

      Page views. It isn't about the truth. It isn't about the environment. It isn't even about doing harm to companies or organizations they dislike. It is always about the revenue stream.

    2. Re:BS alarmist article by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The most important part of the article is completely ignored by the summary. Wastewater treatment plants stopped accepting the waste water from fracking operations because it seemed likely that the results this study found would be the case (the study needed to be done to confirm that what was apparent was what was real). Treating the waste water from fracking operations is a greater expense than treating other waste water. The fracking operations are appropriately forced to absorb this cost. That means that there is no actual problem here.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:BS alarmist article by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Mod Parent UP!

      They are totally correct, this article is generally just FUD. The standards being quoted are "DRINKING WATER:" standards! Why is a waste water treatment plant being dinged for not meeting drinking water standards on what it discharges? We don't require them to meet the drinking water standards, so they don't.

      http://water.epa.gov/scitech/swguidance/standards/criteria/current/index.cfm

      These Anti Fracking nut cases need to go argue with the EPA and get the law changed if they are going to argue this is not safe for some reason.

      Move along... Nothing to see here but FUD...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  30. Re:Flouride.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Its good for your teeth boy, so shut up and drink your water...

  31. Re:"Sometimes...." Realy? by darkfeline · · Score: 1

    sometimes: adv., when they aren't illegally dumping it: Sometimes the gas producers dispose of this fracking wastewater by sending it to treatment plants that deal with sewage and water from other industrial sources.

  32. Re:Flouride.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Put down the half-witted, big brother scare tactics. The study you quoted is flawed on so many levels and irrelevant to most of the modern world. The US and Australia do not use Sodium Fluoride, an easily absorbed salt. They use hexafluorosilicic acid and hexafluorosilicate. Neither of these pass the brain/blood barrier or enter the BECF. the only danger is when it evaporates in LARGE quantities and produces Hydrogen Fluoride gas. At a concentration of 1-12 PPM, it is incapable of producing anywhere near enough HF gas.

  33. Re:Flouride.. by ddd0004 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I see they've gotten to you too. This goes a lot deeper than I thought.

  34. Re:Unemployed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Even if your thesis were correct"

    Uh huh, let's start with that. Obama is a big government socialist, as are the Democrats running congress and functionally, the Republican leadership.

    Unemployment is flat, and frankly under-reported, numbers coming from the state and media are fudged and you know it. Real unemployment is in the 20% range, welfare, SSI and disability at record levels and again, you know it.

    So my thesis is correct.

    Now you can argue the details and I am sure you will do your little socialist dance to try and fudge the numbers but it doesn't wash. Obama is not Bush 2.0, and for that matter Bush was a big government overspending disaster also. You want to pretend unemployment is not up, you just go ahead and believe it, but keep it to yourself, no one serious actually believes you. Of course, it's down in North Dakota, and that's a fact, not a fucking thesis.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/10/11/obamas-real-unemployment-rate-is-14-7-and-a-recessions-on-the-way/

  35. Re:Funny title by W.+Justice+Black · · Score: 0

    Frack that, you motherfracker. This whole story makes me want to go frack something up. ...or maybe I just need a good fracking.

    --
    "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
  36. Sewage plants struggle to treat WHAT ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sewage plants struggle to treat f****ing wastewater? Oh my, watch your language!

  37. Re:Flouride.. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

    So are commies. They're everywhere.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  38. Why can't they just re-use it? by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Does the presence of these contaminants affect the pressure pumps? If not, there's no need to dispose of the water (which is incompressible so the up-to 80% which returns to the surface could just be sent down again instead of replaced with new water).

    And when they're done fracking at one site, they can just haul the waste water to the next site for re-use. There are probably some sediments that come up with the water, but those should be pretty easy to filter out.

    1. Re:Why can't they just re-use it? by Tator+Tot · · Score: 2

      They do this. Filtration and centrifuging is easy, and it's done constantly. You start having problems when too much salt from the natural formations occurring in your water. You can't filter out too much salt (economically, anyways).

      I read somewhere that a lady was saying that some frac water spilled on her land, and now the grass won't grow. I got a safe hunch that it was salt water and not some magical toxic chemical.

      --
      To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
    2. Re:Why can't they just re-use it? by danceswithtrees · · Score: 1

      The volume of water used for fracking is enormous. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracking#Water), large wells use 5M gallons of water which in Olympic size pool units is ~7.5.

      You can't truck this from site to site. You would have to build a pipeline. Even storing that volume becomes a problem.

    3. Re:Why can't they just re-use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read somewhere that the lady actually sprayed Round Up all over her land so she could claim that Fracking killed it, hoping to get money.

    4. Re:Why can't they just re-use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The volume of water used for fracking is enormous. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracking#Water), large wells use 5M gallons of water which in Olympic size pool units is ~7.5.

      You can't truck this from site to site. You would have to build a pipeline. Even storing that volume becomes a problem.

      Wikipedia says typical capacity of a tank truck is 5 to 10 thousand gallons. So 500 to 1000 truckloads -- far more feasible than a pipeline.

    5. Re:Why can't they just re-use it? by pweidema · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia says typical capacity of a tank truck is 5 to 10 thousand gallons. So 500 to 1000 truckloads -- far more feasible than a pipeline.

      Yup, that's what they do. And those heavy trucks do quite a number on the roads.

  39. Re:Unemployed? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    That's a pretty serious cut-down.

    "Even the Soviets could do it."

    Zing!

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  40. Re:Funny title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Felgercarb! Slashdot needs a better profanity filter!

  41. Re:Unemployed? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    Mr. Cheney: We've told you a hundred times, please log in when you post.

    Oh, and how's the heart old boy?

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  42. every investor? by CaptainNerdCave · · Score: 1

    You must not understand where your IRAs are, because they're in these companies.

    Does that mean every mutual fund must pass this punishment on to its customers? There's no way, because that might be a breach of confidence.

    You (as the investor) have no way of knowing exactly what gets done because the information doesn't come out until it's too late for you to make an informed decision.

    Are you a senator or congress critter? Upper management of a US automaker?

    1. Re:every investor? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Well if you are irresponsible enough to not know where your money is and what it is doing, than you are as responsible as a gun owner who does not know where his gun is or what it is doing.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    2. Re:every investor? by khallow · · Score: 1

      So how much jail time are you looking at?

    3. Re:every investor? by Khashishi · · Score: 2

      You can hardly fault someone for playing the game, when the whole economic system is built around playing the game, even if the game is evil. You would have to go to the barter system to avoid somehow financing evil.

    4. Re:every investor? by khallow · · Score: 1

      And I'm not faulting anyone for that, primarily because I don't believe that the economic system is built around a game that is evil. The previous poster was however doing that. And by extending it to guns, it means that even the barter system is not immune to financing evil. If I trade a gun for a cow, and it gets used for evil, then I'm responsible.

  43. Private property rights solves nothing by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. Form corporation named Timebomb.
    2. Timebomb buys land
    3. Timebomb "stores" pollutants in a manner that is safe for a whopping 10 years, charging tiny fees to mother corporation
    4. Neighbors see coming disaster (maybe), but efforts gets tied up in courts
    5. Mother corporation sloughs off Timebomb as independent legal entity
    6. Timebomb poisons the water tables
    7. Timebomb dies, and its only assets are poisoned land (which has negative value once it is a proven hazard)

    Isn't it awesome how property rights solve all problems?

    1. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      5. Mother corporation sloughs off Timebomb as independent legal entity

      - yeah, well, there is the problem: lack of responsibility provided by the government moral hazard of creating this fictional corporate front for actual individuals that they can hide behind.

      Corporation that hides you from legal responsibility is just another moral hazard created by the government.

    2. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Form corporation named Timebomb.

      2. Timebomb buys land

      3. Timebomb "stores" pollutants in a manner that is safe for a whopping 10 years, charging tiny fees to mother corporation

      4. Neighbors see coming disaster (maybe), but efforts gets tied up in courts

      5. Mother corporation sloughs off Timebomb as independent legal entity

      6. Timebomb poisons the water tables

      7. Timebomb dies, and its only assets are poisoned land (which has negative value once it is a proven hazard)

      Isn't it awesome how property rights solve all problems?

      If step 5 were not legally possible, this plan would hold no promise of profit to the parent corporation, and thus would never be attempted.

      I didn't see the GP agitating for corporations with superpowers of liability restriction, and since most US right-libertarians oppose that, your argument looks like a straw man.

    3. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      You screwed up the name.

      They called it Superfund. You know, when the government was forced to spend upwards (they stopped counting in 2003) of $8.5 billion dollars of taxpayer money remediating contaminated ground from companies and owners who no longer existed or were destitute.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfund

    4. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Assuming we do as you ask the company in question never sets up subsidiary, they hire Ivan who creates a corporation, collects the money, bankrupts the corporation and runs back to Russia with the money.

      Your solutions isn't tenable. It's no coincidence that organized crime was involved in a significant number of bogus waste disposal business in the 80's that turned into superfund sites.

      The only solution is the one we have, regulate the production and disposal of hazardous waste from inception to remediation. Fracking fluids should not be put into public waste treatment streams, it should be handled by specialty processors and treatment companies running specialized processes and it should cost a lot of money to treat. Then and only then they will find ways to reduce, reuse or eliminate the toxicity of the fluids.

    5. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Form corporation named Timebomb.

      2. Timebomb buys land

      3. Timebomb "stores" pollutants in a manner that is safe for a whopping 10 years, charging tiny fees to mother corporation

      4. Neighbors see coming disaster (maybe), but efforts gets tied up in courts

      5. Mother corporation sloughs off Timebomb as independent legal entity

      6. Timebomb poisons the water tables

      7. Timebomb dies, and its only assets are poisoned land (which has negative value once it is a proven hazard)

      Isn't it awesome how property rights solve all problems?

      Then you start an environmental remediation company... and Clean Up!!

    6. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Yes, it certainly does create a moral hazard. But it is not "just another moral hazard". Unlimited liability partnerships proved to be an insufficient tool to organize the economy once we left the 18th century.

      Do not get me wrong: I am all for better laws around corporate governance. But trying to turn back the clock to a mythical world run by yeomen and craftsmen and small family businesses is not going to get us anywhere. (Besides the obvious, those Goode Olde Days had its share of feudal lords, but we do not like to remember that.)

    7. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $8.5 billion! Oh my garters and stars! How were we ever able to survive that? It's a friggin' rounding error in our 1 trillion dollar annual deficit.

    8. Re:Private property rights solves nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a Superfund cleanup site near my home. I've heard some shady stuff about it and the related apparent coverup.

  44. Re:Unemployed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course I said no such thing, do not put words into my mouth.

    And the term you are looking for is Crony Capitalism, do try and keep up.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

  45. I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Tator+Tot · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'd like to think that more people would have an idea of what is actually in these fluids. There is a lot of information out there. Don't say "BUT.. BUT... THE COMPANIES DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHATS IN THEM!" because that's not necessarily the case. Southwestern Energy has a nice inforgraphic as to what can go into a frac fluid, and in approximate quantities. You can find many more online. Even Halliburton tells you what's in their fluids!

    We make a host of additives for frac fluids, like viscosifiers (the chemicals guar or xanthan gum), friction reducers like PHPA (the chemical partially hydroxylated polyacrylamide), and sand (the chemical silicon dioxide) or ceramic beads (typically bauxite based).

    The items mentioned in the article make it sound like "they are adding benzene and barium to the fluids, and we had no idea that they do this!". I'll help you guys out. Barite (barium sulfate ore) is added to every oil well in the world as a weighting agent for the drilling mud. It's solubility in water is nil. Would water that is flushed down a well that has been drilled capable of picking up barium that has formed a filter cake on the walls of the bore? Sure, but it's also in EVERY WATER OR OIL MUD USED IN EVERY WELL IN THE WORLD.

    Benzene in the frac fluid? Nobody adds benzene to frac fluid. Here is most likely how it got there: oil based drilling muds use diesel as a carrier fluid (if the drilling is done on land, not the case offshore). Diesel has 30% aromatic content (ie. benzene, toluene, xylene). IF the well was drilled with an oil mud AND the well was recently finished being drilled AND it was recently cleared out, then the first part of the "waste" frac fluid will probably contain benzene.

    They don't care right? WRONG. They do on site testing to make sure the sample doesn't sheen or have any type of oil based fluids in the water. If it does, then the water has to be treated before being disposed (i.e. sewage, lakes, rivers, etc). So my question to the people testing these fluids: At what point did they test for benzene? Did the frac water come from a well that was drilled using diesel? Did the frac water come from a well using water based fluids? Were these random frac waste samples? What part of the country did these frac water samples come from? Did the frac water encounter aromatic hydrocarbons in the formation?

    These things are needed to come to a conclusion as to where did these chemicals come from.

    --
    To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
    1. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Shh. You're going to confuse the anti-frackers with facts and reality, we can't have that.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can totally trust these companies to do these tests. They would never cut corners in the name of profits.

    3. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, they aren't confused by facts and reality. They just ignore them.

    4. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by sycodon · · Score: 1

      So my question to the people testing these fluids: At what point did they test for benzene?

      Right after they added benzene from their little vial.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    5. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Benzene in the frac fluid? Nobody adds benzene to frac fluid.

      Really? Then why is it listed as a constituent?

      Opening your Haliburton link and picking North Dakota at random, the first constituent listed for "North Dakota Bakken Hybrid Formulation 1" is 1,2,4 Trimethylbenzene.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    6. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Tator+Tot · · Score: 4, Informative

      1,2,4- trimethylbenzene is not benzene. Methylbenzene is also known as toluene, and by adding one more carbon you change the physiological effects in the body (benzene is cancerous; toluene isn't). Known carcinogens are not used in frac fluids.

      --
      To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
    7. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

      If independent tests are showing benzene in the waste content and I'm to believe that everything you're saying is accurate, the problem is really that they have piss-poor quality control because they don't give a shit about anything other than short term profits.

    8. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Tator+Tot · · Score: 2

      If independent tests are showing benzene in the waste content and I'm to believe that everything you're saying is accurate, the problem is really that they have piss-poor quality control because they don't give a shit about anything other than short term profits.

      I agree. But I think part of the quality process is making sure the waste water has some form of regulated chain of custody. It's unfortunate, but there are companies that buy waste water from the service companies and "dispose" of it by illegally dumping it.

      --
      To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
    9. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't care right? WRONG. They do on site testing to make sure the sample doesn't sheen or have any type of oil based fluids in the water
      I work in your industry too, you can put a bit of hydrocarbons in water without sheens, and if the concentration is below method detection limit, which can be high due to poor handling of the sample or bad lab work, lawyers say you can report it as 0.

    10. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by betterprimate · · Score: 1

      MM. Pour me a pint of Propargyl Alcohol.

    11. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by betterprimate · · Score: 1

      I'd like to think that more people would have an idea of what is actually in these fluids. There is a lot of information out there. Don't say "BUT.. BUT... THE COMPANIES DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHATS IN THEM!" because that's not necessarily the case.

      According to this article ( http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-03/hazardous-air-pollutants-detected-near-fracking-sites.html ), they have found large amounts of dichloromethane in the air samples. It doesn't sound like they're being as honest as you state.

    12. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Tator+Tot · · Score: 1

      You can totally trust these companies to do these tests. They would never cut corners in the name of profits.

      I'm currently the one who does the tests. I have no incentive, nor am I punished for reporting whether or not a fluid has certain chemicals in it.

      --
      To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
    13. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Tator+Tot · · Score: 1

      I'd like to think that more people would have an idea of what is actually in these fluids. There is a lot of information out there. Don't say "BUT.. BUT... THE COMPANIES DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHATS IN THEM!" because that's not necessarily the case.

      According to this article ( http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-03/hazardous-air-pollutants-detected-near-fracking-sites.html ), they have found large amounts of dichloromethane in the air samples. It doesn't sound like they're being as honest as you state.

      From your article, "The authors say the source of the chemicals is likely a mix of the raw gas that is vented from the wells and emissions from industrial equipment used during the gas production process." The gasses are from "all natural" gas from the ground or from exhaust from equipment (which are typically run on diesel or natural gas). This doesn't have anything to do with chemicals added to frac fluids. Having an issue with "industrialization" and air pollution relating to exhaust is one thing to be concerned about, but the discussion is about chemicals in frac fluids.

      --
      To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
    14. Re:I work for a company that makes fluid additives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can understand why the companies using these chemicals for fracking might care exactly where certain chemicals entered the wastewater stream, but I'm not sure that normal people should care. Normal people just don't want pollution (e.g. elevated levels of bromides) in the watershed near their homes.

      It should be the responsibility of the companies generating the wastewater to deal with that wastewater. Having a waste treatment plant process the wastewater seems like a good way to deal with it. However, if the waste treatment plant cannot handle the pollutants in that wastewater (as suggested by the abstract) then the companies generating the wastewater need a better solution. That is what the study is about -- not the inputs (the contents of the fracking fluid) but the outputs (the contents of the wastewater).

  46. The treatment plants bear responsibility too by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    Fracking created the the waste. But why didn't the treatment plants know they weren't removing the contaminants? Why did they release water into the watershed without testing it first? If you run an industrial waste water treatment plant, and a company says "hey, I've got some water here I'd like you to treat" I would expect a part of the process is asking "what is in the water?" and "can our process handle this?"

    It sounds like some due diligence was not done here. It is thankful that the graduate student tested this, and that the treatment plants cooperated. There needs to be mandatory monitoring and reporting not just on the quality of the water in the watershed, but also what the treatment plants are directly outputting.

  47. Some perspective and what the state could do now. by Ranbot · · Score: 1

    It's not uncommon to have temporary or ongoing discharges of contaminated waters to public sewers. Many older gas stations around the country have had "pump & treat" groundwater remediation systems, which discharge to the public sewers waters contaminated with benzene and other volatile and semi-volatile compounds like those of concern in frack waste water. Lots of factories have permitted discharges of contaminated waters to the public sewers. Construction sites where they have to dewater "clean" or contaminated groundwater will arrange to discharge it to the public sewer. The municipal fees are usually pretty minimal too. I've set up a few temporary discharges like this for my work (environmental consulting). So, what I'm getting at is that these kind of discharges are nothing new, and it's not really fair to single out an energy company if they are following the regulations that are in place. The only difference I could see is a frack water discharge is probably a really big load on the treatment system at one time, whereas other permitted discharges are spread out over a longer period of time and dilluted significantly the other waters running through the sewers. Anyway, all sewage treatment plants operate and discharge under specific permits requirements set by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (PADEP). I'm guessing that the permits the wastewater treatment plants operate under don't set specific effluent standards for some of the potential contaminants related to frack waste water. If frack water discharge to sewage treatment systems is an issue the PADEP could very quickly update the sewage treatment plants' permit requirements. The PADEP already has that authority, it wouldn't even require a partisan vote in the state legislature.

  48. Re:Flouride.. by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

    Woosh..

  49. Re:Flouride.. by maratumba · · Score: 0

    Of, for frack's sake...

    There. Fixed it for you.

  50. Re:Flouride.. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Yup, and they deliver it in a toxin called DMHO.

  51. Re:Flouride.. forget that, ban Di-hydrogen Oxide! by al.caughey · · Score: 1

    Di-hydrogen oxide in water causes far more damage and health risks than flouride... it should be banned immediately!

  52. Fracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Frack the Frackers.
    With all the money on chemicals they have spent. they could have purcahsed enough solar panels to power 3 earths for 100 years already. Now they got to crap in our water to make a profit?? Anger mode is now engaged.

  53. prior art exists (tm) by swschrad · · Score: 1

    particularly, from large chemical plants to (what I have studied lightly) film processing operations. and the usual rule is, if your effluent does not meet certain parameters, you either pre-treat on site or you pay for us to do it and we also charge you whatever we like to run and maintain it. this is determined at time of connection, and contracted, and generally there should be a periodic review of conditions.

    meaning in practice, if you have a large fracking field, you have a pretreat system. if you have one well in Herman Township, and one well in Backtracks Township 15 miles away, you have a settling pond and pay whatever municipality a big chunk 'o' change.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  54. Re: Unemployed? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

    So if bush was a big government, overspending so and so, and Obama isn't Bush 2.0, does that mean that Obama is a small-government conservative?

  55. Industry-wide reckless disregard - thats COAL! by BonemanPgh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every single thing we do has environmental consequences. It is a question of risks, rewards, and tradeoffs. Due to the rather large amount of free media coverage given towards fracking opponents, the industry has been quite responsive to just about every tax/requirement that has been enacted - many times complying with new regulations before they are imposed. I've also heard of cases where the drillers have improved local infrastructure to better than pre-drilling condition. I am not suggesting they are angels by any means. They are engaged in PR war. They need to conform anyway - conforming early gets points. Restoring to better than original gets points. Our media will spend HOURS discussing the Gasland flammable water video FOR FREE - and barely ANY time talking about how the water there was flammable long before fracking was even invented. To refute that one false claim costs the fracking industry tons of PR dollars. And Parent is wrong here - the Frackers most certainly take safety and environmental issues seriously - one mistake will fry them in the media - the PR costs to fix it would exceed the costs to deal with the environmental issue. Sure, there are accidents - but not the industry wide reckless disregard for the environment that coal mining (both underground and strip) caused in their early days - and hell, even now. For power generation, I'm liking fracking for natural gas (given the known environmental risks) over that of the coal industry. The human and environmental costs of mining alone is provably worse than fracking. When it comes to burning each for power, gas winds with no question. I'd rather have some modern nuclear plants over either option, but geez, the only 'today' alternative to high energy costs or fracking is coal. And coal sucks.

    1. Re:Industry-wide reckless disregard - thats COAL! by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      Wow you really went to town on someone ELSE'S argument. I never said any of the claims you refuted. I never said that frackers don't take steps, comply with the law, or have too many accidents. I said they won't reveal what they are pumping into the ground.

      And that is outright true. You can bring up a ton of good things they do, but unless you counter the one bad thing that they do, it just doesn't matter. That's like saying "Why did you convict me of rape, I never stole any money whatsoever."

      Frackers fight the laws with lobbyists - and then are surprised that people say no to fracking. You can't use lobbyists to give yourself easy laws, comply with them, and then wonder why people are against you. They are against you because they are not stupid, they KNOW the laws you demanded are too lenient.

      Specifically the laws let them hide what they pump into the ground. As long as you can do that, you can't be trusted.

      I stand by my argument.

      P.S. I agree that nuclear is fine and coal is evil. But that doesn't mean we should stand by and watch fracking turn into the coal industry. Instead we need to make sure Frackers act like the good guys, not the evil coal SOBs.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  56. Re:Flouride.. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    Sadly several Queensland councils here in Australia have recently bowed to the bullshit and stopped putting it in their water, some are even proudly telling the world how much money they have saved. The same people also appear to prefer cholera in their drinking water, rather than chlorine.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  57. So wait, a public cost on Fracking? by erroneus · · Score: 2

    Okay. I've heard enough. I have not heard of any private water processing plants so I'm going to go out on a limb and presume that this is a public cost and that the frackers aren't really paying for what they use. So someone out there, if you know, please put my rage to ease by explaining that the frackers are paying for the full cost of the water treatment... better, I see a way that the public can benefit in some way -- let the frackers pay for more than their own clean-up... make it like a TAX! It's not fair to put the tax burden only on the consumer which is more or less how it's done now as I understand it.

    1. Re:So wait, a public cost on Fracking? by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      You're wrong. Companies or individuals in PA who want to discharge anything other than typical sanitary waste (i.e. flushing toilets) have to: 1) get a one-time or annual permit; 2)demonstrate the waste meets the facility's requirements, which are set by PA's department of environmental protection; and 3) pay a fee for the discharge. The fees and waste requirements can vary from facility to facility depending on their capabilities. The fees are usually a one-time hook-up fee plus a per gallon rate charge or an annual fee based on estimated volumes for long-term permitted discharges. So in that way it is a tax directly on the company discharging. If the facility is accepting waste they cannot treat, discharging the waste before it is treated, or not charging enough that's not the fault of the companies who were authorized by the waste water treament facility to discharge to the public sewer system. (FYI, I've reviewed many annual discharge permits and helped arrange for temporary discharges of mildly contaminated water to public sanitary sewers for construction projects in PA and NJ, so that's how I know this.)

  58. WTF is wrong with you? by Prien715 · · Score: 2

    Sorry, dork, your tinfoil hat tea party sites may swallow your bullshit, but there are a few here at slashdot who are a little better educated.

    You may want to consider adding "culture" to your education. There's a wonderful little film making fun of these tin-foil hats called "Dr. Strangelove" which is arguably the most famous black comedic film of all-time. Type "communism fluoride" into Google and watch General Ripper give a lecture about it. It's supposed to be funny, but you haven't seen the film, so you don't get the joke.

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
  59. So? by zmooc · · Score: 1

    So? Fracking is bad? Or some idiot running a sewage plant got dollarsigns in his eyes and signed a deal his plant couldn't handle without breaking the law?

    --
    0x or or snor perron?!
  60. Re:Unemployed? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    The problem isn't socialism, it's capitalism. When the ownership of things is private, it doesn't matter where the direction is coming from. State-controlled, privately owned enterprises are called "socialist" because "ownership" for economic definition is defined by control, not profit flow. But that's incorrect, because the "owner", being private, can take their ball and go home, no matter how much "control" the government claims. So your thesis is correct for incorrect definitions of "socialist".

  61. Re:Flouride.. by darkfeline · · Score: 1

    I make it a point not to speak assertively on subjects I have no expertise in. I had my suspicions on the parent post, but I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt =)

  62. "The Conqueror." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've followed this case for decades, and the producer also had a few truckloads of the soil brought back to use on the sound stage, because the color was so intense it would have been noticeable if the earth was a different color in the same scene cuts.

    I wonder if all that 'imported' radioactive soil is still on a Hollywood back lot somewhere, or if it got disbursed and has been irradiating unsuspecting people for decades?

  63. They have a technological solution for this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There was a company called latitude solutions that came up with an electro precipitation method for cleaning water. It would even clean oil out of the water. Too bad one of their CEO's bankrupted the company by stealing its money and took my stock with it. Maybe somebody will start it up again someday, they certainly have a use for the technology

  64. Water is wet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Private profit public losses.

    Republican free type market.

  65. Re:Flouride.. by demonlapin · · Score: 1

    He's a lot more likely to come from a very hippie background than anything to do with the Tea Party or NASCAR. You think the people in the infield at Talladega worry about "nervousness, irritability, restlessness, insomnia, headaches, and heart palpitations after caffeine use" or that "fluoride is the reagent for the synthesis of fluorocarbons"? More like "makes me feel like I need another beer" and "the shit that made Freon so expensive".

  66. Re:Unemployed? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    Obama is a big government socialist

    Your "thesis" is based on the false assumption quoted above, the only people on the planet who believe Obama is a socialist are a minority of American right-wing partisans who quite frankly make Genghis Khan look like a "bleeding heart liberal". What's worse, neither the assumption or the thesis are "yours", they are both standard elements of Tea Party dogma.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  67. Patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Business secrets & patents to cover them are mutually exclusive. Patent something & its no longer a secret--if it's a good idea a substitute will be reverse engineered faster than you can say Jack Rabbit.

  68. Re:Flouride.. by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

    Consumption of large amounts of caffeine – usually more than 250 mg per day – can lead to a condition known as caffeinism. Caffeinism usually combines caffeine dependency with a wide range of unpleasant physical and mental conditions including nervousness, irritability, restlessness, insomnia, headaches, and heart palpitations after caffeine use.[18]

    It takes five to ten THOUSAND times as much sodium flouride to do what coffee will. That 5-10 grams? Swallow ONE gram of benzine and see what happens to you.

    Sorry, dork, your tinfoil hat tea party sites may swallow your bullshit, but there are a few here at slashdot who are a little better educated.

    Yeah, caffeine might have some unpleasant effects when taken in high doses, and it stains your teeth, but children today have a high incidence of dental fluorosis. It damages the enamel of the tooth when you are getting too much fluoride. The other problem with trusting the science on fluoride safety, is they test with medical grade fluoride, but the stuff put into the water is the industrial waste grade of fluoride. It comes from weapons manufacture as a toxic waste. So who knows what problems the impurities will cause.

    Fluoride might be useful, although reading up on the guy who first promoted its use for teeth it seems he just made some pretty big assumptions. But still, it should not be overdosed. Smaller children, or people who are getting their daily allowance from other sources don't need it in their drinking water. And what about showering in it, washing your clothes in it, watering the lawn? Why should something like that be added to all water when you can't control the dose and usage anymore. I will get my fluoride from my toothpaste and drink only clean water, thank you.

    Perhaps it is you who needs to get a little better educated.

    --

    -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  69. Re:Flouride.. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    Di-Mono-Hydrogen-Oxide? Surely you mean the deadly Dihydrogen Monoxide!

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  70. How convenient that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    20% (according to TFA) of the poisoned water stays underground, so they don't have to deal with it now. Our children will.

  71. Re:Flouride.. by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

    Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

    ===
    For the first 9 years of their life, my kids drank fluoridated water. They had no teeth problems and that benefit even though fluoridated water stopped due to political pressure. The dentists in the community were for fluoridated water, they did not need extra cavities to fill, but....

    My sons and daughter, now age 40, 39, and 32 have no cavities, not one. My wife and I have minor cavities, as we were adults when we moved into that community. We use fluoridated toothpaste, but that is full of crap, I don't think it works.

    Fluoridated water does provide benefits. The actual percentage of fluoride is so low that boiling water to reduce the amount of liquid by 10, will still not bring the concentration level anywhere near a concern level. You would have to reduce the water by 100 times before you would worry. And no, you would not drink 100 glasses of water at one sitting. Sigh. Sometimes we listen to fear-mongering. One argument was that the machine putting in the 5-10 drops of flouride in the municipal filtration system could error and deposit 1000 times more. We had to show that the bottle of flouride only held the days supply, but even so, we lost the fight.

    Locally we cant find fluoridated water or tablets to add to a pitcher of water. Our grandkids drink bottled water with their lunches or when they are out on the sports field. Our bottled water is sold to the bottler by the city. It sells it to the bottler and is it is provided directly from the municipalities filtration system. The bottler, has one filtration level additional to insure no particle could get into one of the bottles. Sometimes they add an ounce of spring water to 1000 gallons of tap water to indicate that the plastic bottle of water contains spring water.

    --
    Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  72. Let's read that artcle in the link .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " This research provides [i]preliminary[i] evidence that [i]these and similar[/i] WWTPs [i]may not[/i]be able to provide sufficient treatment for this wastewater stream, and more thorough monitoring is recommended."

    Lot of "weasel words" here. Remember that turning in a report that says "everything is just fine" or "this is not worth a huge grant to my school" or "existing laws cover this" is not popular with those who benefit from the "fear du jour" with power, money or both. You have to at least ask for more funds to study the problem; when I wrote grants, I had generic boilerplate text for just that purpose :)

    I remember a report sent to congress in the 1800's that the invention of motorized vehicles will make mobile artillery possible! Fortresses will be useless! Rapid troop movement will make cavalry obsolete! The solution was more laws to prevent private ownership of such things, federalization of all stores of gasoline and benzene, etc.

  73. Re:Flouride.. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Dyslexics of the world untie.

  74. Re:Flouride.. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    What is the burning question on the minds of agnostic dyslexics everywhere?

    Is there a Dog?

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  75. The Romans and The Americans Epitaph by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Romans poisoned themselves by drinking from lead containers...The Americans poisoned themselves and their drinking water by allowing fracking ! Greed and cutting corners has always had consequences it seems !

  76. Re:Flouride.. by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1
  77. Re:"Sometimes...." Realy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They aren't recovering most of the fluids. For a single well, it takes 5 million gallons of water mixed with 5% of their fracking fluids with the BETX problems in it. They are only recovering less than 50% of this water. The rest goes into ground water and wells that people have on their properties or into the cities water reservoirs. If you think the wastewater treatment plants are having a hard time dealing with it, how does a homeowner who has a polluted well?

    IMHO, it needs to be banned until the full effects are understood and regulations are around it so that this doesn't end up happening. Unfortunately, there are many cases which is already has.