Draft Computer Fraud and Abuse Act Update Expands Powers and Penalties

Despite calls to limit the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, it looks like Congress is planning to drastically expand the law and penalties. walterbyrd writes with a few of the major changes listed in the draft bill (22 pages): "Adds computer crimes as a form of racketeering. Expands the ways in which you could be guilty of the CFAA — including making you just as guilty if you plan to 'violate' the CFAA than if you actually did so. Ratchets up many of the punishments. Makes a very, very minor adjustment to limit 'exceeding authorized access.' Expands the definition of 'exceeding authorized access' in a very dangerous way. Makes it easier for the federal government to seize and forfeit anything." TechCrunch also reports rumors that the plan is to push the bill through quickly for approval with a number of other "cybersecurity" bills in mid-April.

Comments

Just as guilty?

[Anonymous Coward]

And how, precisely, do they plan to prove this?

Thoughtcrime?

Shit like this is why politicians shouldn't even be trusted with a minimum wage McJob, let alone drafting legal policy for things like telecommunications, computer use, and the liike.

Re:Just as guilty?

[__aaltlg1547]

The same way they prove any conspiracy.

Re:Just as guilty?

[davester666]

Yeah, they just assume you are part of the conspiracy, and you have to prove you aren't.

Re:Just as guilty?

[thoughtlover]

You think politicians actually draft legislation? I don't think that's been done since the late 1800s. Corporate shills (foundations) and their lawyers draft almost all the laws, now. I'm not surprised at this type of legislative crap and will do all the things that I did to help kill SOPA. I hope all the people that worked to shoot down SOPA are still just as perturbed, now, as they were then.

Fascist America

[danbuter]

One step closer to fascism. Big business controls the government, and the government will control every single aspect of your life.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

At least with Fascism they told you what they were going to do once they got into power. With the current government there's no publicly acknowledged consistent ideology for why they need all this power. They are amassing all this power, for what?

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

Big business controls the government, and the government will control every single aspect of your life.

Who really thinks big business will hold the leash in this relationship? They simply aren't that powerful, don't have the resources or the guns, and they aren't sufficiently unified compared to a large national government, especial one as vast as the US federal government.

Now, if it were say a half a dozen or less massive businesses (something like the Japanese zaibatsu of old) who controlled virtually all private activity, then you'd be speaking of players who would have power sufficient to deal with the federal government as near equals.

We have to keep in mind that the federal government spends above 20% of GDP and is likely to stay that high for a while. The largest private enterprises, Exxon-Mobile and Walmart are about a tenth the size and have a profit margin to maintain.

OTOH, the US federal government spends somewhere under a dollar to acquire $100 according to the IRS (so I understand, though I getting the data from a secondary source, see page 24).

It also maintains a large military and law enforcement, which in part maintains the societal infrastructure that generates the tax revenue present and future that the US government depends on (either directly through taxes or indirectly through borrowing). I don't think such necessary expenses would be higher than about 10%. That means the rest of it is money waiting to be doled out to constituents, special interests, and building up federal bureaucracies. Now, some fraction of that remainder is going to have to go to entitlements and other gifts to voters in order to preserve the overall revenue stream, but I bet they have a margin that a private company would be willing to kill for.

Re:Fascist America

[Fluffeh]

Actually I think it shows that they are getting more and more scared - which can only be because the people are getting more and more agitated. These folks act in reaction to perceived threats to them and their jobs. If they are cracking down by trying to pass these over-reaching laws it can only mean that they are losing a large amount of control and power on this front. On one hand it is good, I believe in power to the people - though within reason, but on the other hand it brings us one step closer to an Orwellian state which is scary.

Re:Fascist America

[girlintraining]

One step closer to fascism.

Closer? What are the five tenets of fascism:

1. Nationalism (Patriotism)
Exalting the nation (or race) above all else, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity. "We're number one! We're number one!"
Totalitarianism
2. The State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. In less academic terms, if you're not a patriot, you're the enemy. And a patriot is defined as, well, whatever the state tells you it's defined as.

3. National corporatism (and various other names)
Fascism denounces capitalism not because of its competitive nature nor its support of private property that fascism supports; but due to its materialism, individualism, alleged upper-[class] decadence, and alleged indifference to the nation. Put another way: Collect all the wealth you want, and step on whomever you want, as long as you can demonstrate it's in the best interests of the country. What is the argument that every public corporation? That what it is doing is in the best interests of the consumer. But what are all of a nation's citizens? And what is a nation without citizens? See also: "Too big to fail."

2. Political violence
Essentially, social darwinism. "Survival of the fittest." We have the highest incarceration rate of any country on the face of the Earth, and it's rising faster than any other country as well. If taking away your freedom and stuffing you in a cage isn't violent, I don't know what is. You can recover from being beat up. You can't recover from being stuffed in a 5x3 room for decades.
4. Age and gender roles
This is more difficult to explain than it might first seem, because fascism isn't about reverting to traditional gender and age roles, but rather a radical redefinition of them by placing a premium on the ability to take action. It's like social darwinism, in that your worth is measured by how much punch you can give on behalf of the state, but it is unlike social darwinism in that you, individually, are not what's being judged here but your social class. "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."
5. Palingenesis and modernism.
Don't let the academic terminology fool you: Behind high-sounding words is a very populist idea. You saw it most recently in the latest Batman movie: Taking from the rich, and giving to the poor by violent means, and while appearing as the liberator. It's easy to see it on a movie screen, because it rises and falls in a matter of hours. It's not so easy to see in a new bill increasing inheritance tax. But feather by feather, the goose is plucked. Now combine that with the idea of modernizing (and controlling) everything through technology to increase national power. That's what they're talking about with modernism. The idea of building a strong military is part of it, but that's more of a byproduct of this process: The heart of it is economic revitalization. It's about process, efficiency, productivity. Of course, with economic power comes the fear of losing all that money. Hence producing drones, tanks, guns, and bombs; It's secondary, but it's first in most people's minds.

Now, when you think of fascism along those five axis, is there any aspect of societal change that hasn't been moving in this direction since 9/11? Every dictator comes with the same words to the working class: "We are your friends." And for a time, they are. They deliver exactly what they promise: Material prosperity and a sense of pride. But it's temporary and transitive, because it isn't a process that can be stopped once you reach a happy middle-ground... once you start down the path of violence, it becomes cyclical. It builds, visciously eating, biting, and snapping at everything around it, and when there is nothing left to consume... it begins eating itself. The people who built the monsterous machine, cheering it on all the way, become the fuel for its last, gasping breaths.

That is the lesson history t

Re:Fascist America

[girlintraining]

P.S. Apologies, I forgot the quotes in my copy-pasta off Wikipedia. Much of the descriptions provided here are from the website, while the analysis is my own.

Re:Fascist America

[epyT-R]

It's getting harder for me to discern the difference between fascism and socialism these days, especially with all the hybrids cropping up in the world.. they definitely contrast with the more traditional socialism seen in North Korea for ex. Whether the power grab originated in the state or in a corporate oligarchy doesn't matter because the net result is the same: one uses the others' encroaching influence on the society to control it.

I wonder which corporations will end up being the 'jennings & rall' of the 2050s that will play the puppet government as our 'friend'? ..or maybe we'll end up with a highly centralized state, soviet union style. Today's politics make me concerned that a situation approaching either are both likely outcomes, and that there's little that can be done about it either way.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

They are amassing all this power, for what?

For the coming massive economic/currency crash, followed by World War/revolution.

Re:Fascist America

[Required Snark]

The original post has it right, you have it wrong: mega-business has co-opted the government. Every real world example shows this pattern.

The bank bailout of 2008. Even though the banks failed the most basic rules of capitalism, there was no meaningful penalty for institutions or individuals. All the whining about Dodd-Frank regulation is crocodile tears. The big Wall Street firms have not changed in any way. They still engage in appallingly bad behavior because of unbridled greed. JPMorgan just got caught effectively breaking the new regulations and lost $6 billion as a result. There were still casino gambling, but they called it something else. The fallout: nothing. No legal or regulatory action. Dead silence after one day of hearings. Jamie Dimon just got a big vote of confidence from his board, and retains the titles of both CEO and Chairman. He was personally aware of what went on. Yes, at some point an underling will be thrown under the bus and go to jail, but the big crooks are untouched.

DCMA in general and this legislation in particular. It criminalizes the most innocuous actions so that business can crush anyone at any time. This is the government doing the bidding of mega corps.

Fracking. Ever increasing areas of the country are having their water supplies poisoned forever so that Big Oil can make more money. It's worse then Chernobyl or Fukushima, because radioactivity has a half life. Fracking is a irreversible change to geologic structure. It will take geologic time to recover. These are the same companies that were the most profitable businesses in the history of the world in the 2000 decade. They still get obscene tax brakes that go back to 1926.

Monsanto and GM crops. First they said the the manipulated genes would not get into non-GM crops. Then when it happened the courts ruled that the non-GM planing farmers could be sued for stealing their IP. So if GM crops are used in an area, either you plant a different crop, or are forced to use the GM seeds to avoid being sued. The Mafia is envious.

In addition: Big Pharma and Oxycontin. HDMI cables. EULA. "Clean Coal". Mandatory ethanol from corn. Increasing the number of 1-HB visas.

The constant feature is that big business can buy damn near any legislation they want. The government is the enforcement arm of corporations. In the real world the law goes to the highest bidder, and all the money and power resides in corporations. When you blame the government your corporate owners are delighted. They can keep right on going because their disinformation campaign is working perfectly. Any fix requires understanding who is in charge, and you have it completely wrong.

Re:Fascist America

[lintense]

Socialism give to the poor to free them. Fascism lend to the poor to enslave them. That was easy!

Re:Fascist America

[gweihir]

Well, what is going on in the US now certainly looks like the precursor to Fascism. It is not there yet though, but only by quantitative measure, qualitatively it is pretty close. I grew up in Germany, Fascism is a bit more drastic than what is going on on average in the US now, it certainly matches the extremes though. So, do something now or explain to future generation why you failed to do so. And no, the US will not be rescued by the free world. Freeing relatively small Germany was already almost infeasible.

Re:Fascist America

[Runaway1956]

It's for globalization and the one world government. What else? Hell, we're being conditioned to accept and respect titles like "czar" already.

When the ruling class is ready for us to know who holds the puppet strings, they'll let us know.

Re:Fascist America

[Runaway1956]

The central banks, that's who. Which nation's economies aren't controlled by a central bank affiliated with the world bank?

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

The bank bailout of 2008.

What about the bank bailouts is supposed to prove your point? It wasn't the banks who could on the spur of the moment channel many trillions of other peoples' money. That point resided with the governments of the world.

Fracking.

If fracking is dominated by business interests then why isn't it being applied as quickly as possible everywhere? California supposedly has much larger shale oil reserves than North Dakota has, but it doesn't have the same activity. Why can't businesses get what they want in California, if they dominate politics?

Monsanto and GM crops. First they said the the manipulated genes would not get into non-GM crops. Then when it happened the courts ruled that the non-GM planing farmers could be sued for stealing their IP. So if GM crops are used in an area, either you plant a different crop, or are forced to use the GM seeds to avoid being sued. The Mafia is envious.

And Monsanto's legal efforts would be completely toothless, if it weren't for the power of government to make inadvertent pollenization of crops illegal for the victim.

In addition: Big Pharma and Oxycontin. HDMI cables. EULA. "Clean Coal". Mandatory ethanol from corn. Increasing the number of 1-HB visas.

All enabled by government force. Without which, none of these would be happening.

The constant feature is that big business can buy damn near any legislation they want.

But they can only do so from one national level legislature in the US (and similar monopolies on law creation elsewhere). And in the US, the power to make law is held by only two groups, the Democratic and Republican parties. I have to ask why people think that businesses have the power, when it's concentrated in two parties with trillions of dollars at their disposal?

In the real world the law goes to the highest bidder

Of course, big business can buy law. How else are you going to monetize the concentration of political power in the federal government except to sell it? And you claim, it goes to the highest bidder. That indicates that the big businesses are competing with each other to purchase political power. That's another indication that the power resides with the government not with the highest bidder.

Re:Fascist America

[Trepidity]

So you don't think this legislation has anything to do with the copyright lobby, which taken in aggregate is larger than the entire U.S. government?

It's funny that you talk about "above 20% of GDP" as if it's high, when countries with stronger protections for civil liberties, like Denmark, have a government sized at 50% of GDP. Seems like smaller, US-style government doesn't produce any benefits.

Re:Fascist America

[Obfuscant]

The bank bailout of 2008. Even though the banks failed the most basic rules of capitalism, there was no meaningful penalty for institutions or individuals.

The banks were not allowed to follow the most basic rules of capitalism. For example, a basic rule of capitalism is that you don't loan money to people who probably cannot pay you back. You don't want to be stuck with a foreclosure, you want the money back. CRA meant they had to make those loans if they wanted to stay in business ("stay in business" is a basic rule of capitalism). In other words, the banks had some of the basic rules of capitalism changed by social policy makers ("everyone should be able to own a home", e.g.) who didn't consider that the other rules were still in play.

Dodd-Frank regulation is crocodile tears.

Dodd and Frank are two of the social policy engineers who failed basic engineering math. Banks cannot stay in business when they hold bad paper, so they're going to get rid of it. Don't force them to take bad paper in the first place and the problem goes away. Refuse to re-regulate them when it becomes obvious something needs to be done and the problem gets worse, not better. No, Billy Sue and Bobby Jo who make minimum wage not being able to afford to buy a three bedroom house in the suburbs is NOT a problem. It doesn't need federal regulation to fix.

They still engage in appallingly bad behavior because of unbridled greed.

It is not unbridled greed to want to stay in business. It's a basic rule of capitalism. Nobody sane runs a business to run it into the ground. If you want any businesses at all, you have to put up with the "unbridled greed" that means they can stay in business and make a profit. (The scare quotes are there for a reason, btw.)

In addition: Big Pharma and Oxycontin. HDMI cables.

HDMI cables are a nefarious big-business plot?

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

North Koea isn't socialist, it's a totalitarian dictatorship veiled in the promise of communism.

Re:Fascist America

[epyT-R]

It's nowhere near that simple, and there are plenty of counterexamples. Both ideologies enslave..

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but what you are missing is the government hires private contractors to supply equipment for its military and police force. It also relies on the private sector data (Google, ISP's, etc) to compile profiles of its targeted citizens. The FED basically gives money away to the big banks in hopes that they will loan it or somehow spend it to create employment. All in all the government is spending money through the private sector to achieve goals of the ruling elite in this country. That is the textbook definition of fascism - where the government is run solely for the purpose of advancing big business

Re:Fascist America

[epyT-R]

My point was that any attempt to build such a thing inevitably leads to dictatorship.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything you listed is correct, but I will disagree vehemently on the most major principle: the US govt- senators and representatives- in fact ARE in control. That they pander to the corporations is well known and being accepted by all. But the senators and reps. do it willingly, and the sheeple keep reelecting them. If the sheeple would realize that whoever the news media presents is truly the enemy, and vote for someone who is not headlined, we might start to have a country again.

There are grass-root projects which might help, but everyone damn sure better all get on board. One concept is the People's Lobby. Another is http://www.votewise.net/ - they need help- let's help them!

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

It's funny that you talk about "above 20% of GDP" as if it's high, when countries with stronger protections for civil liberties, like Denmark, have a government sized at 50% of GDP.

Actually, that's roughly 58% of GDP in 2009 and Denmark is higher as a fraction of GDP than any other country in the OECD.

There is state and local government spending in the US. That is about as large as the federal spending. So sure, the US government could spend another 15-20% more than it currently does, though there's no particular reason to do so aside from digging the economic hole deeper.

As to Denmark and its fabled "stronger protections for civil liberties", it's part of the EU which recently crossed yet another civil liberties line by trying to force Cyprus to take a depositor "haircut" on bank deposits that are supposed to be 100% insured (relatively small deposits under 100k euro, if I remember correctly). Not honoring important contracts with the public (especially when the problems in question were partly the EU's fault due to the write off of Greek government debt by Cyprus banks), is a huge step towards not honoring the laws of the land, such as those respecting civil liberties.

I believe also we will see that spending lots of other peoples' money inversely correlates with "stronger protections for civil liberties". If government is taking three fifths or more of your income, then that's a substantial absence of liberty. And I also believe that Denmark just won't get a lot for what they spent. I will say however that Denmark's debt situation looks a lot better than the US's. We'll see if it stays that way.

Re:Fascist America

[RazorSharp]

Both ideologies enslave..

If you want to trivialize the word 'enslave' in such a manner, then one could say "civilization enslaves." Lord of the Flies. . .

Being a part of any society comes at the cost of restrictions upon one's freedom. The question is, "which restrictions are good?" Not, "are restrictions good?" It's the restrictions we place upon ourselves and enforce through government that allow us to transcend the greater restrictions nature imposes on us. Only through discipline can we be free.

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

That is the textbook definition of fascism - where big business is run solely for the purpose of advancing government

Fixed it for you. Perhaps you should look at textbook cases of fascism in Europe and elsewhere. Was business or government in charge in Nazi Germany under Hitler? Fascist Italy under Mussolini? Argentina under Peron? Chile under Pinochet? Or modern cases such as Singapore or possibly mainland China? Government has always been in charge.

I think this distinction is important because it matters how we try to solve things. If we assume business was the power here, then stripping them of power (say via regulation) would fix the problem.

But if it's just a case of government selling its monopoly services at an exorbitant premium, then you just handled even more power to the real problem. I think that is what is happening here. There's nothing keeping government from continuing to sell its services. They'll just be able to charge even higher prices than they currently do.

For example, someone cited the bank bailouts as evidence of big business power. So how did the banks, desperate for capital, manage to force governments all over the world to release vast amounts of public funds? They didn't. It was another opportunity for government officials to profitably play winners and losers, while simultaneously appearing to "do something" about a huge financial crisis. Well, we're still suffering from the fallout of that banking crisis and the subsequent "solutions", but at least the politicians are doing fine.

OTOH, if big businesses really were too powerful, then cutting government spending means that they lose a vast gravy train which helps fund their power.

So needless to say, I'm in favor of cutting government spending whether or not government is the more overly strong party or not.

Re:Fascist America

[TubeSteak]

In addition: Big Pharma and Oxycontin.

The good news is that increased enforcement is choking off the street supply of painkillers.
The bad news is that prescription opiates are being replaced with real opiates: heroin.
You can find news articles talking about the shift, starting around 2008

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

If your right-wing thesis about the CRA was right, sub-prime would have been the primary failures.

Re:Fascist America

[Trepidity]

I don't think failing to bail out banks is much of an intrusion on civil liberties. Cyprus was not "forced" into accepting anything. They were merely offered a deal with some terms. They could've refused it and let the banks fold.

I believe, contrary to your prediction, that we'll find libertarian shitholes to correspond strongly with weaker protections for civil liberties. If the government isn't providing basic infrastructure, the country will suck. The U.S. is going that way already, which is why I got out. Fuck the rich people and their anti-tax, anti-society bullshit; they can live in their walled gardens and ruin their country, but I'm not having a part in it.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

" They simply aren't that powerful, don't have the resources or the guns, ..."

Oh yeah, what cave have you been hiding in the last 20 years?
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi

Re:Fascist America

[stenvar]

Oh, please, spare us the unhelpful cliches and doom-saying. There are problems with government, but there have always been problems with government in the US. We deal with them as they come up and move on. If you think this is "fascism", you really know nothing about fascism. But, then, stupidity like yours is nothing new either among the voting public, and we have survived that and thrived despite of it for two centuries.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

... You don't want to be stuck with a foreclosure ...

'Securitisation chain' means the bank sold that debt to the capital market. The bank could give money to everybody and the 'share holders' would take all the risk.

... basic rules of capitalism changed by social policy-makers ...

Yes, the movie 'Inside job' details how those changes allowed those banks to count money that didn't exist. Just like Enron did.

... "unbridled greed" that means they can stay in business ...

No. making a profit means they can stay in business. Unbridled greed is not mentioned in the 'Causes of the wealth of nations', the definitive study of the free market.

I'm in the business of acquiring cars. Please arrive home late on Thursday night so I can shoot you and take your car. THAT is 'unbridled greed' and punishable under another law.

... Nobody sane runs a business to run it into the ground ...

As the movie 'Inside job' reveals, Goldman-Sachs created loans they knew would go bad then insured those multiple times. That insurance scam is what ruined the AIG corporation.

Re:Fascist America

[stenvar]

They can keep right on going because their disinformation campaign is working perfectly.

The disinformation you should be worried about is the progressive and left-wing disinformation you are listening to. Free markets are the solution to these problems, not the cause. Big businesses don't like free markets and don't like operating in free markets, they like government regulation, government-mandated monopolies, and government subsidies and bailouts. And Obama has been even worse in these areas than his predecessors, despite claiming to run on a platform opposing big business.

Re:Fascist America

[some old guy]

Our multinational capitalist oligarchs do not have to hold the reigns of power. They own the horse.

The government is bought and paid for via graft and 1st Amendment-protected campaign contributions.

Not to accept the obvious is hopelessly naive.

Re:Fascist America

[Skinny Rav]

My point was that any attempt to build such a thing inevitably leads to dictatorship.

No, it doesn't.

I know it is cool to bash religion on /., and the Catholic Church in particular, but the pope, which grew up in a totalitarian country (John Paul II) stated 20 years ago:

As history demonstrates, a democracy without values easily turns into open or thinly disguised totalitarianism.

It is possible if voters either agree on a set of totalitarian principles, or simply do not care. It seems that this is what is happening now in the US. I do not see mass protests against the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, War on Drugs, all computer-related discrimination and restrictions. It is also not popular enough among voters to build a new party, or to compell one of parties to change their stance.

As long as voters in the US either approve this new trend, or simply do not care, both parties will continue introducing further restrictive laws.

Re:Fascist America

[KGIII]

It shouldn't, in my opinion, limit your freedoms to belong to society. Then again, most people mistakenly define the word "freedom." What should be restricted is liberties. This isn't a matter of simple semantics but is an important difference to point out and be aware of. I guess the best way to put it is that I'm free to kill you, I have that freedom. That is the way that it should be. I'm free to kill you but I'm not at liberty to do so. There will be consequences for that but my freedom isn't restricted in any way.

Re:Fascist America

[Yomers]

I like to look at current changes from Asimov's psychohistory point of view - social structures are not random, they mostly depend on current technology level. Consider that technologies are evolving - one of the results is that it will become easier and cheaper to create, just for an example, deadly virus and the antidote. Resources of Earth is limited, but population is constantly increasing. There are less and less frontiers, so less and less reasons for free entrepreneurs to exist. If you need people that colonize dangerous foreign land - you need free, self reliant people with many skills, but what type needed now? Anyway humans are less and less needed at all - automatic production, software for management and accounting etc - we are becoming irrelevant in every aspect. We could change all that by working towards colonization of our galaxy, but clearly we are not doing it, it's just not possible with our individualism that allows only short term goals. So world government and total control maybe not the worst scenario, it may prolong existence of human race or maybe even change the way we think - somehow merge humanity n a singe ego.

We have no indication that another life forms do exist anywhere else in the universe. Best thing we could realistically do now is to became a patriots of carbon based lifeforms and launch as many capsules as possible with some low level 1 cell organisms that can survive, adapt and evolve, in a directions of known habitable planets, to increase the chances life in the universe in a future. From evolutionary point of view - maybe that's the purpose of our species. Or maybe that is what God wants - we can always say that :) Or think how boring the universe without life would be - we could do it just for lulz!

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

Big businesses don't like free markets and don't like operating in free markets, they like government regulation, government-mandated monopolies, and government subsidies and bailouts.

If there is no government force, big money will easily buy private force to do competition in, and free market it will be not.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were raised by the same system, had a chance to change "rules of the game" "so that you win," "and not get hurt " "inured from any losses", how is
that not creating a new paradim? Actually not a new one, just one that was espoused in the early to mid 1920's on wall Street. This game isn't new. This time the "bad" guys got the laws changed ahead of time, so they were innocent of fraud. Jamie and his ilk, are smart that way,they bought a bunch of greedy politicians, put them in office, they changed the laws, and sold "crap" refrigerator ice to escomoes and called it an iceberg.
Now you are saying and confusing things mentally, what part of the democratic platform, is against business, it's consumerism based. If yoou want to sell a product here, please make it here, with our workers, Thats anti business, open your eyes tool. Obama worse, no, no worse then bond, or any of the others that are rich, by the common standard, but remember, will you trust the market with your retirement, with your educational fund, with your savings, your future? and (remember Crete and greece, but investigate how the only one is recovering, it is the one that jailed a banker) with any investment grade option for the future.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

The people were not part of any of the negotiations, It steals their resourses. and gives it away to those who rule. Thats not taking away a liberty, a freedom, but it took away investiture in their land, it took away the freedom of want, in exchange what they got was inflation, and a fear of politicians, doing the wrong thing. They could have figured who caused the crisis, and why, and if it was real or manufactured. And an appropiate penalty for the disruption. But no.........they bought the bailout of a millionare, gave him more money, to gamble away. From those who can less afford it. I thought paying tribute to a "conqurer" was fiction of history, but the tithe appears too be here, We are all slaves, but too who?

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. If the government were a totally independent entity sitting in a vacuum, it would be bigger and more powerful than any single corporation. It's just that it isn't. They overlap.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

So the final frontier is near, so now we have to develop a "conistoga" wagon to find a next earth to trade with. Or stay here and limit everyone, but a few masters. Everyone who wants to be a master, raise their hand. Now everyone who can afford to be a master, raise their hand. Your better bet is too look for a new earth.
Lets look at some of our past masters. Warriors, Bastards, Brutes, Amazons,Bitches, Whores,Idolitors,Traitors, and the american ones are no better. They would sell you down the river for a dollar. Our leaders are not altruistic. They are in it for a reason, self-agrandizement.

Re:Fascist America

[ebno-10db]

... You don't want to be stuck with a foreclosure ...

'Securitisation chain' means the bank sold that debt to the capital market. The bank could give money to everybody and the 'share holders' would take all the risk.

... basic rules of capitalism changed by social policy-makers ...

Yes, the movie 'Inside job' details how those changes allowed those banks to count money that didn't exist. Just like Enron did.

... "unbridled greed" that means they can stay in business ...

No. making a profit means they can stay in business. Unbridled greed is not mentioned in the 'Causes of the wealth of nations', the definitive study of the free market.

I'm in the business of acquiring cars. Please arrive home late on Thursday night so I can shoot you and take your car. THAT is 'unbridled greed' and punishable under another law.

... Nobody sane runs a business to run it into the ground ...

As the movie 'Inside job' reveals, Goldman-Sachs created loans they knew would go bad then insured those multiple times. That insurance scam is what ruined the AIG corporation.

Hear, hear! Quoting the parent because I lack mod points, and people should see it. The only "basic rule of capitalism" is to make money, and if fraud isn't prevented, then scams will prevail.

Re:Fascist America

[ebno-10db]

Actually not a new one, just one that was espoused in the early to mid 1920's on wall Street. This game isn't new. This time the "bad" guys got the laws changed ahead of time, so they were innocent of fraud.

You're right that this isn't a new game, but wrong about the particulars of the law. In the 1920's there were fewer laws regulating this, but laws and regulatory bodies were created as a result of the Great Depression (Glass-Steagall, SEC, etc.). And while many of the laws were revoked or weakened ahead of time (e.g. Glass-Steagall), many of them weren't. But who cares if there are laws when they're not enforced? That's much of what happened this time - massive financial crimes (under existing statutes) were not investigated or prosecuted. See anything written by William K. Black, who helped obtain over a thousand criminal convictions from the S&L crisis. As he points out, the recent financial implosion made the S&L crisis look like a joke, yet no one was prosecuted for fraud. Of course you can believe that this was a different situation and no serious fraud was committed. If so please email me, as I've got a bridge to sell you.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

Free markets are the solution to these problems, not the cause

I like to believe that. I understand what you are saying. However, the natural movement of business is to a monopoly. Either by coercion or purchase. And remember the golden rule "he who has the gold makes the rules".

To keep the market balanced with enough players you have to involve a government like body. This is where it always goes in the weeds though. As you then get social activists involved who want to make life better (rightly or wrongly). Then the very same businesses figure out they have a new weapon, regulation. They can regulate any competition away instead of by force or money. So all gov ends up doing is forestalling the inevitable result.

For example look at the recent health care bill. The #1 beneficiary is not the public. It is insurance agencies, mandated insurance. I am sure some actuary jizzed himself when he found out his market increased by 1/3rd with little cash outlay from his company and put it on his new 'customers'!

We are at a point where the US gov is creating de-facto monopolies when it should be busting them up.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

In your free-market paradise, the banks would have just collapsed and every depositor would have lost all or neraly all their money...

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

If there is no government force, big money will easily buy private force to do competition in, and free market it will be not.

So what? If it comes to that, my money is against those sorts of armies. There have been a number of historical revolutions where privately funded armies have been used and turned to be pretty worthless.

For example, there's the French Revolution (which early on, prior to Napoleon, had a bunch of poorly equipped soldiers beating mercenary armies), the Russian Civil War (several of the Soviets' adversaries ran mercenary armies), the Chinese Civil War (the Chinese Communists went from assured destruction while encircled by mostly mercenary armies to taking over the country in a couple of decades), and the Cuban revolution (Batista getting overthrown by Castro).

A business which is focused on profit is going to be taken to the cleaners by anyone who will fight no matter the cost. So I don't take your objection seriously

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

To keep the market balanced with enough players you have to involve a government like body.

Given how the rest of your post contradicts this assertion, perhaps you ought to examine it?

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

A case in point. One of the largest private military firms around and they make less than half what it takes to get on the Fortune 500 list. They indeed don't have the resources or the guns.

Re:Fascist America

[khallow]

Our multinational capitalist oligarchs do not have to hold the reigns of power. They own the horse.

They don't have the power to keep the horse. Government has that.

Not to accept the obvious is hopelessly naive.

Appeal to naivety is a fallacy. Especially when it's wrong.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

To keep the market balanced with enough players you have to involve a government like body.

Given how the rest of your post contradicts this assertion, perhaps you ought to examine it?

I would say it more points out the problems with the line you quoted, rather than contradicts it. The fact that a necessary action creates problems does not make it unnecessary.

It was almost a clever retort, though; keep trying, you'll get one eventually.

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe, contrary to your prediction, that we'll find libertarian shitholes to correspond strongly with weaker protections for civil liberties.

Now, now. Just because half of what he says is wrong and the other half appears to be made up on the spot is no reason to call him names.

Re:Fascist America

[kermidge]

Yeah, odd, that. Many dismissively use "ah, that's just semantics" yet, beyond grunt, gesture, posture, facial expression, semantics is all we have left with which attempt communication with another.

So I think you make a useful distinction, to help increase clarity of thought by using correct word.

I think Patrick Henry chose his words carefully: "Give me liberty...."

Re:Fascist America

[Obfuscant]

No. making a profit means they can stay in business.

You missed my comment that the quotes were there for a reason. It's is not unbridled greed to want to stay in business, it is a basic rule of capitalism. That's why calling wanting to stay in business "unbridled greed" is both patently absurd and a reason to put that phrase in scare quotes. Calling it "unbridled greed" every time any company wants to make a profit is just ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time, but it makes those who rant about evil capitalism feel good.

Please arrive home late on Thursday night so I can shoot you and take your car. THAT is 'unbridled greed'

What a stupid analogy. Nobody shot anyone to force them to accept an ARM or to take out a mortgage they couldn't pay for. Those people voluntarily signed a contract that said they'd pay back the loan and had the house as collateral. (That means they knowingly and voluntarily said "if we don't pay, you can take the house back".) Those contracts for ARM said what the rate was going to be and what and when the balloon was. There WERE laws that forced banks to make those loans if they wanted to stay in business, which you are calling "unbridled greed". Frank and Dodd were prime architects of these laws, and prime obstacles to getting things fixed. When banking regulators judge bank performance on how many loans they make and not on the quality of those loans, you create exactly this bubble.

As the movie 'Inside job' reveals, Goldman-Sachs created loans they knew would go bad then insured those multiple times.

Yes, the banks knew the loans they were being forced to make were going to go bad. That's common knowledge. It's an easily predictable consequence of making loans to people with little or no income and little or no ability to pay back the money. You wouldn't loan money to your deadbeat cousin who has no job and no way to repay you, would you? Not if you were in the business of making loans with other people's money you wouldn't.

Of course the banks did what they legally could to protect themselves while staying in business. Had they not been forced to make those loans, the problem would not have existed. Like I said, Billy Jo and Bobby Lou not being able to buy a house they cannot afford is not a problem, but when they buy a house they can't and then don't pay the money back, it is. When there are enough BJ and BL defaulting on loans they cannot afford, it becomes a problem for the rest of us.

I bought the house I own under the social engineering rules. The bank couldn't require much in the way of proof I'd pay them back, or much of a down payment. They offered me a wonderful ARM, though. The contract was clear on the initial rates and when they were going to balloon. We even discussed how this would be a great deal -- if I was going to stick around for only five years. They didn't once shoot me, or even point a gun at my head, to force me to accept it. I simply said "I want a fixed" and they said "ok".

Re:Fascist America

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because companies are battling it out in courts or in public over disputes, copyright, patent ect. It is arrogant not to think, or be in the know that CEO's or execs of these companies are probably having friendly lunches, and golf outings, while planning what to do next, to make sure they stick together on fundamentals, such as buying control of laws only to abuse them.

Are government has used this terrorist bullshit, and a number of other things that are all illusions to gain more and more control. I love how these shit stains Prepubicans say about your rights and freedoms, but make sure they are also being bought off to take the fundamental human (the hell with country) rights away. SO you can own a gun, but you are losing privacy, and are getting closer and closer to becoming a criminal whether you think you are or not.

The story or article is blowing this up, yes, I am aware of that, and I too I'm blowing up my statement even tho it has already happened.

 

Re:Fascist America

[KGIII]

Someone insisting you voluntarily surrender something is an oxymoron and still taking something from you. I think that if you're being asked to surrender something, no matter how trivial, it is best to ensure that the communication is clear. There are some principles that are so strong that you have to be clear that they're boundaries and freedom is a very important thing to not let go of. Rights and liberties will be taken away as governments only grow in power, I'll concede those but there are already enough restrictions on my freedoms already. Freedom is taken by force or threat of force usually (I can't immediately think of a time or situation where it wasn't) and that's truly into the enslavement territory and is probably well past the time to start fighting back should that be what one desires. I am, of course, assuming that there are those who'd live happily with further restrictions on their freedoms and I wonder about their sanity.

you want to talk abuse...

[vswee]

just look at what's been plaguing slashdot lately! bloody spammers

this just in

[girlintraining]

Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Laws too dense for average citizens to understand, too vague to prevent massive abuse! Please. You're all felons. You haven't been prosecuted because you haven't pissed anyone off enough to become one, but all I need to do is record you going about your daily business for a week, and I'll find enough dirt to keep you locked up for a long time. Every. Last. One of you. Except perhaps the person who can't read this, because they're in a coma, in a hospital bed. And that poor, poor bastard is only avoiding his fate for as long as his bank account continues to pay off his mortgages and student loans. Once the money runs out, yeah... he's gonna be a felon too.

The law has ceased to have any relevance of any kind whatsoever for principled and ethical people. You cannot follow all the laws, you don't even know all of them, and you're not supposed to, and even if you did manage this collossal feat that even our own government can't accomplish with all of its resources... interpreting the law is also a crime. Ha ha. And telling someone else what you've learned? Practicing law without a license... another crime.

We're all criminals. We just haven't been caught.

Re:this just in

[Man On Pink Corner]

Exactly. It's not about being able to arrest everybody. They can't arrest everybody, and they don't want to arrest everybody.

It's about being able to arrest anybody.

Re:this just in

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, Lacey Act, (16 U.S.C. 3371–3378), makes it illegal to posses, transport, etc etc, any plant or animal or fish that is illegal to posses or transport in by US law, Indian law, OR ANY FOREIGN NATION'S LAW. This means I can catch and possess a fish that is legal in one state, in the state that it is legal in, but still be arrested because it is illegal in a different state or even a foreign country.

We are all felons, because there are so many laws on so many things that we cannot possibly stay on the "legal" side of all the laws all the time.

AlphaA

Re:this just in

[Charliemopps]

You make a good point, but I'd argue with you on their inability to arrest "everybody" The fact of the matter is, they already have over 1% of the population in prison. Maybe they can't technically get everyone, but they sure as hell are trying.

Re:this just in

[Keith111]

The government doesn't care about most of us. They will only arrest people who, as MOPC said, pissed someone with more power than us off. Otherwise the only people who get arrested are the random members of the herd who are necessary to make status quo numbers. It's kind of where America has been headed for a while. We're all about regulations and numbers and basically the movie Brazil.

Re:this just in

[Fluffeh]

... they already have over 1% of the population in prison. Maybe they can't technically get everyone, but they sure as hell are trying.

Interestingly, I wonder what the tipping point is when the US simply cannot afford to put any more people into incarceration. I wonder how much tax as a percentage is spent on putting people into prison?

Re:this just in

[girlintraining]

The fact of the matter is, they already have over 1% of the population in prison.

Technically, 0.7%, but it's a very misleading statistic. 9.2% of blacks are in prison right now. Now, I'd love to hear an argument that explains how 70% of the prison population isn't white, while making up only 20.04% of the general population. The author's original point wasn't that they want to arrest everybody -- it's that they want the abilty to arrest anyone. And they certainly show a strong preference towards arresting certain classes of citizens. Mind you, that's 9.2% right now. That doesn't count probation, or the knock-on effects of being unable to find a decent job ever again unless it's also criminal, etc., etc. They don't have to jail everyone to take away their freedom -- you don't need walls to limit a person's potential, you just need a reason. And that was the OPs point, and mine. And it's a point you missed because you didn't dig into the statistics.

Re:this just in

[Charliemopps]

It's nearly bankrupting several states. Most notably California, the most prosperous state in the union.

Re:this just in

[Lothsahn]

Sociology study after study shows that there is significant racial bias in the police force against blacks. Minorities are more likely to get charged with crimes, arrested, and pulled over for committing the same traffic infraction as compared to whites.[1] This bias exists and is real. This is a significant portion of the story.

The other significant portion of the story is that blacks are far more impoverished than whites, on average. " In 2010, 27.4 percent of blacks and 26.6 percent of Hispanics were poor, compared to 9.9 percent of non-Hispanic whites and 12.1 percent of Asians." [2] Poverty has a strong correlation to violent crime and drug use. "Nonviolent drug offenders now account for about one-fourth of all inmates in the United States, up from less than 10 percent in 1980. " [3] This figure does not include crimes which are committed to support a drug addiction.

Interestingly, violent crime rates are similar in impoverished black and white neighborhoods. "The violent crime rate in highly disadvantaged Black areas was 22 per 1,000 residents, not much different from the 20 per 1,000 rate in similar white communities." [4] This means that despite the proven police bias, for violent crimes, only 2 per 1000 more blacks are convicted of violent crimes as compared to whites in impoverished neighborhoods.

In summary... 50 years after Martin Luther King, Jr., we still have significant racial bias in American Culture. However, we have come a long way as compared to even 25 years ago. As we continue to improve as a nation, and treat others not based on their racial makeup, I believe the poverty inequality will begin to equalize in this nation. We still have a big problem with racism in the US. The racism issue is slowly improving, but there are practical and non-racist reasons why the incarceration rates differ so dramatically between whites and blacks. You don't enslave a population of people for hundreds of years and then turn around, snap your fingers, and suddenly have racial, economic, financial, and social equality. Repairing the damage that was done takes time. Now if our prison system could be more interested in healing instead of retribution...



Interesting Note: There is growing evidence that Lead is the cause of the majority of the violent crime. [5] If this is true, this may explain why the violent crime rates are similar--impoverished people are more likely to be exposed to lead, but impoverished blacks are just as likely to be exposed as whites.

[1] http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/09/blacks-hispanics-still-more-likely-to-get-traffic-tickets-in-illinois/ [2] http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/
[3] http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/269208/prison-math-and-war-drugs-veronique-de-rugy
[4] http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm
[5] http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

Re:this just in

[stenvar]

Minorities are more likely to get charged with crimes, arrested, and pulled over for committing the same traffic infraction as compared to whites.[1] This bias exists and is real. This is a significant portion of the story.

Young African-American males commit murders at a rate a hundred times larger than the general population. You can't explain that away with "bias"; there is something profoundly wrong with the subculture they live in.

The racism issue is slowly improving, but there are practical and non-racist reasons why the incarceration rates differ so dramatically between whites and blacks. You don't enslave a population of people for hundreds of years and then turn around, snap your fingers, and suddenly have racial, economic, financial, and social equality.

An African American youth from a poor family is no different than a white youth from a poor family. The idea that you think of people with darker skin color as a separate "population" is just racism on your part. Skin color is an irrelevant attribute. You don't become a member of a "population" or "culture" because your skin color is different.

Re:this just in

[Anonymous Coward]

Skin color is an irrelevant attribute.

You really are a tool. It should be entirely obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature that if people are *treated* as a "different group" because of this "irrelevant" attribute, they will end up *behaving* differently "as a group".

Extreme example to illustrate the point to the terminally stupid: If all brown-eyed babies were taken from their parents at birth and raised in "camps", are you really prepared to assert that their behavior at adulthood *as a group* would not relate to their different treatment?

Or to expand your comment into something that actually makes sense: "Skin color is an irrelevant attribute if, and only if it is treated as irrelevant by society.". (Like eye color is, mostly).

Re:this just in

[Anonymous Coward]

Sociology study after study shows that there is significant racial bias in the police force against blacks.

Who did NOT in large part support the one anti-prohibitionist candidate for president, Ron Paul.

Some people continue to fuck themselves. No race/group is alone in that, however, just to varying extents.

Re:this just in

[Anonymous Coward]

Sociology study after study shows that there is significant racial bias in the police force against blacks... This bias exists and is real. This is a significant portion of the story.

Of course, what is really interesting about that bias is that it primarily happens in areas where blacks commit most of the crimes. In areas where hispanics commit a high percentage of crimes the police show significant bias against hispanics. There is a real problem and a real point there, but it's not the one you're trying to make.

The other significant portion of the story is that blacks are far more impoverished than whites, on average.

Which tells part of the story, but IMHO not enough. Those impoverished blacks also are highly concentrated in urban areas, while historically impoverished whites have lived in rural areas. I can tell you from personal experience that the pressures on the poor in cities are much more extreme than in rural areas, and the crimes they commit, both in number and type, reflect that.

Poverty has a strong correlation to violent crime and drug use.

You're getting closer...

Interestingly, violent crime rates are similar in impoverished black and white neighborhoods.

And there you have it. The most interesting thing of all is that when you control for poverty, distinctions in crime rate between ethnic groups pretty much disappear. Studies which show police bias against specific ethnic groups not only usually don't control for poverty, they're often specifically designed to ignore it.

In summary... 50 years after Martin Luther King, Jr., we still have significant racial bias in American Culture.

I'm sorry, but that is just a stupid thing to say. I was alive at the same time as MLK; were you? To use his name to try to intimate that racism exists in this country in any way comparable to what he was fighting against is either horrifically uninformed or purposefully dishonest. The kind of racial discrimination which was a normal part of life then is extinct, and anybody who truly believes otherwise either didn't experience it or is delusional.

We should also keep in mind that racism isn't going to go completely away, ever. Humans as a species are still here in large part because we are inherently xenophobic. For the vast majority of our species' existence it has been a survival trait, and it's not going to go away just because we started living in large groups a relatively short while back. You can't eliminate it, you can only control it, and I'll give you a hint: if you think only those who are descended from Northern Europeans exhibit this particular behavior, you've already lost.

Now if our prison system could be more interested in healing instead of retribution...

Our prison system is run largely by for-profit corporations, either directly or on behalf of various state and federal governments. Most of them are paid based at least in part on the number of inmates in their prisons. Neither healing nor retribution figure into their desire to increase the numbers of incarcerated individuals, and if you don't think they exert heavy influence on the ever-increasing numbers of crimes for which you can be imprisoned and the escalating sentences being handed down for same, well, you're just as naive about that as you are about everything else.

Re:this just in

[kermidge]

"Know ye the truth, and the truth shall set you free."

Right. Thanks, anyway. [grin]

I have to guess that it's good to know the state of play, but too often lately I almost think I'd prefer not to know just how bad it is. A bit of bliss about now would go a long way.

Write to your representatives!

[intellitech]

I’m a constituent calling on you to reform the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA), 18 U.S.C. 1030. This law contains vague language that broadly criminalizes accessing a computer "without authorization," carries heavy-handed penalties, and shows no regard for whether an act was done to further the public good. We saw how these laws could be abused in the case of Aaron Swartz, a recently-deceased 26-year-old coder and social activist who was hounded by the Justice Department in a relentless and unjust felony prosecution.

The CFAA needs three critical fixes: first, terms of service violations must not be considered crimes. Second, if a user is allowed to access information, it should not be a crime to access that data in a new or innovative way -- which means commonplace computing techniques that protect privacy or help test security cannot be illegal. And finally, penalties must be made proportionate to offenses: minor violations should be met with minor penalties.

While it is too late to intervene on behalf of Aaron, it’s not too late to ensure that this harm is not done to future social justice activists and security researchers. Please hold a Congressional hearing to examine the ongoing abuses of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and similar laws, and champion reform so that the potential punishments fit the crimes.

You can write to them easily here: https://www.eff.org/aarons-law

Take the time to add a note to the end of the boilerplate about how you WILL NOT vote for them if they don't act.

Senators and Representatives, even somebody like me who doesn't follow all things politics-related can still see how you vote and how well you represent my interests via http://www.opencongress.org/ , at the very least. Just remember, we are watching.

Re:Write to your representatives!

[girlintraining]

You can write to them easily here:

And they can just as easily reply with a form letter, feeding your letter into a database to extract keywords, which is then used to build a report that the legislator may read from time to time to figure out how popular something is.

Take the time to add a note to the end of the boilerplate about how you WILL NOT vote for them if they don't act.

Form letter democracy at its finest. I'm sure it'll get plenty of attention, like all the other form letters submitted to Congress have. You wanna make a difference? Get a pen and a piece of paper. That gets noticed. E-mail? Lulz. It's spam to them.

Senators and Representatives, even somebody like me who doesn't follow all things politics-related can still see how you vote

Yeah, you either get to vote for Person A (Incumbent), who promises to keep doing all the things they're doing now, or Person B, who promises to do the same things just slightly differently, who are both funded by the same group of corporations and political interest groups, and will ultimately vote based on how those people want things done. Your vote doesn't matter when you're not the one getting to choose who's name gets on the ballot.

Just remember, we are watching.

I'm sure MegaCorp is happy to let you watch while they buy the next election too.

Re:Write to your representatives!

[fustakrakich]

They are not buying the politicians. They are buying our vote. Or more correctly, we are selling our vote. 98% of us. The politician is simply the intermediary.

Re:Write to your representatives!

[Anonymous Coward]

And they can just as easily reply with a form letter

A former staffer once told me the key to getting an actual human being to craft a response. It's possible that in the years since they've clued into this technique, but I doubt it. The key, as he told it, was never to write about a single issue. They had form letters for basically any issue you might care about. If, instead, you wrote about two issues with absolutely no connection, it forced a staffer to craft a response (often from multiple form letters.) If your second issue was really obscure, it might even force them to write portions of the respose.

So write about this law and also express concern for the moose population of southern Alaska and your correspondence will receive a few seconds of their attention instead of the zero that it would otherwise get.

Re:Write to your representatives!

[penix1]

What typically happens when you write to these asshats is they pass the letter on to a lowly state official to answer. I have answered many a congressional letters from the public that would have gotten them a faster answer had they contacted me directly. You see, once a congressional comes down we answer back to the congress critter who in turn copies that response back to the person. The same happens on the federal level. They pass it off to anyone else to answer, usually the same agency the person is whining about.

In short, when something happens the congress critter is the least involved yet seems to be the first that people whine to.

Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[kawabago]

Shoot the other foot.

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it is:

Liberal reaction: shoot the other foot.
Conservative reaction: shoot a poor person in the foot.
Libertarian reaction: allow someone else to shoot themselves in the foot.
Socialist reaction: cut off all feet so that no one can shoot themselves in the foot.

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[jfengel]

Since it's just a draft, I'm not actually certain who wrote it. It doesn't have a tracking number yet. This being the House, we can infer that the chairman is OK with it, and he's a Republican, but he's not necessarily the author.

The only clue I can find is in a file name included in the document:

C:\DOCUME~1\HRBRAZ~1\APPLIC~1\SOFTQUAD\XMETAL\5.5\GEN\C\SR_005.XML

but I don't see anybody on the committee whose name fits "HRBRAZ~1" (and it's probable that it's somebody's secretary or legislative assistant; it might even be the staffer who's responsible for maintaining the XML [via Softquad, on an elderly Windows installation]).

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[Lawrence_Bird]

Well it is most certainly not a congress critter as they are way to stupid to think and write anything 'legal' themselves. So the bigger question is, who has lobbied for the terms in the proposed law?

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[Areyoukiddingme]

Now I wish I hadn't used up all my mod points on other threads.

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[I'm New Around Here]

Actually, it is:

Liberal reaction: shoot the other foot.
Conservative reaction: shoot a poor person in the foot.
Libertarian reaction: allow someone else to shoot themselves in the foot.
Socialist reaction: cut off all feet so that no one can shoot themselves in the foot.

I thought it was funny.

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[Anonymous Coward]

Googling for "HRBRAZ" certainly does turn up quite a few legal documents in several websites... it's just a question of figuring out what's the common theme.

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[phorm]

https://twitter.com/HRBraz ?

H.R. coordinator in D.C. sounds close, but not so much the non-profit part.

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[Isaac Remuant]

Go on! Keep thinking in terms of dualities and always blame wrong things on the other side. Not having to deal with reality will make you feel better about yourself (and self esteem is important).

Re:Conservative reaction to shooting foot

[jfengel]

I'd guess not, since the ~1 implies that there was more stuff there that got cut so that it could fit into 8 characters, a requirement for older Windows systems.

So it might be somebody with a name like Brazile, who just happens to be a local politician in DC. It's not her (her first name is Donna, and she works in local politics, not on Capitol Hill). It could conceivably be a relative, though it's more likely that it's somebody else whose name begins with "braz".

Needs a new title

[russotto]

Maybe they could change the title to this bill to the "Piss on Aaron Swartz's Grave Act of 2013"?

Seriously, what did you expect. The noose always gets tighter.

Re:Needs a new title

[girlintraining]

Well, yeah. They're naming it after him because his death dropped the pants on these asshats. So naturally, they adjusted the law to prevent further de-pantsing events rather than admit that their crappy, over-vague, law which criminalizes basically any use of a computer indirectly led to the death of a talented young man who's crime was basically annoying authorities in the 3rd degree.

Re:Needs a new title

[rtb61]

Those changes are even worse than that. They basically allow the government to seize your home solely upon the basis of a claim of conspiracy of an already arrested person awaiting trial and a reduced sentence. Basically these laws have been written to silence political activist who use computers for any political activity.

Most people use their computers in their homes, their homes provide the facility for using that computer hence, under the law can be confiscated regardless of the lack of any losses or gains, just upon the claims of conspiracy. As conspiracy does not require the evidence of any crimes being committed purely the testimony of an individual seeking a reduced sentence ie. the loss of their homes and many years in prison, you can see how this can be readily abused to target any individual disliked by the current political authority.

Breach of contract is a civil matter but under this Law if the contract is basically on a computer it is a criminal offence. To access the contract you must adhere to the conditions of contract, if you breach the conditions of contract, your access to the contract is now a criminal act. Even more insanely it sets no limits on the 'Terms of Service' of access to computer network. This enables the wordings of "Term of Service' to ensure all users breach the "Terms of Service" in normal use, thus allowing the entity responsible for the "Terms of Service" the power of prosecution over all of it's users.

Straight up this is a political attack targeted at computer geeks and nerds, basically the majority of slashdot users and at silencing them because of their greater political influence in the internet age.

Where's the outrage?

[TubeSteak]

I'm guessing Google, Wikipedia and friends aren't going to blackout their websites over this one.

Re:Where's the outrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only a draft, it is too early to be getting angry and protesting, but writing to your congresscritter about it may be an appropriate course of action.

4th Branch of Government

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we need a 4th branch of government specifically to remove laws from the books, stop unjust enforcement/execution of the law, and instruct the courts to re-interpret existing laws.

Have it consist of 1000 people randomly sampled from the US population, rotating in a new set every 6-12 months. Anybody can petition them for a redress of government action. If 500+ of them say "Yep, citizen is right, X is total bullshit." they are given the authority to issue an order to the other branches to stop/undo it.

Re:4th Branch of Government

[Nidi62]

Maybe we need a 4th branch of government specifically to remove laws from the books, stop unjust enforcement/execution of the law, and instruct the courts to re-interpret existing laws.

Uh...that's called the Supreme Court. That is literally exactly what it is designed to do

Re:4th Branch of Government

[Anonymous Coward]

That only happens if someone brings a case to them, and until someone has a good case where they've been harmed by some unjust law, everyone else must suffer.

Re:4th Branch of Government

[hsmith]

Uh, no. SCOTUS wasn't intended to validate laws. That is a power it took upon itself.

Re:4th Branch of Government

[the eric conspiracy]

The Constitution's supremacy clause clearly establishes that the Constitution trumps all other laws in the US. The court has to operate under this rule.

This means that they cannot function without first resolving any conflict between the Constitution and the questions on the case they are ruling on.

Re:4th Branch of Government

[jelizondo]

I'm sure you live in the good ol' US of A, so you need to beef up your knowledge of how the SCOTUS operates.

You can appeal to SCOTUS to hear your case and they can refuse.

If you read slashdot regularly you should have seen the following stories: Tenenbaum and Thomas

Both were refused; meaning they are screwed.

No, SCOTUS is not at all like the proposal of a fourth power.

Re:4th Branch of Government

[Isaac Remuant]

Too bad there's now a cheat code. You only need to say "National Security" and courts can't review the legality of something.

Massive Overreach, Then Seeming To Relent

[Anonymous Coward]

They propose something completely over the top, so that when they appear to reconsider and listen to the public, we are all mollified to let them get precisely what they wanted in the first place.

Join the ACLU and EFF, your NRA for the 21st century.

while being mindful of the irony...

[Anonymous Coward]

While being mindful that the US government funded the initial research, creation, and infrastructure of the internet, letting them have anything more to do with it after it managed to get a toe-hold has been a mistake, and will become an even bigger and bigger mistake as they realize just how much power is there for them to use to control the population.

It's different parts of the government of course. The researchers like Cerf who created the Internet Protocol were doing awesome stuff. The congressslime who want ever more control over it need to fuck off.

than?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this goes against the great American trend for using words with specific interpretations -- like 'than' and 'which', or indeed 'like', 'than', and 'which' -- as all-purpose conjunctions, but shouldn't it be 'as' here?

"making you just as guilty if you plan to 'violate' the CFAA than if you actually did so. "

Don't Blame Me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I voted for Kodos.

The Last Thing This Law Needed

[FuzzNugget]

Was broadening.

What have we done?

[govett]

Turns out that the Internet is being used as a tool for depriving Americans of their privacy and rights.

Re:What have we done?

[lintense]

IMHO you could say that for every new technology. For example, every new tech that saves us time will eventually make us work more. At least we've got the games...

nt

[shentino]

Dear americans:

Fuck you

Sincerely, the feds.

and web sites can copy this store

[Joe_Dragon]

http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/1axk4y/when_they_open_tomorrow_im_going_to_see_how_many/

with the same BS and if you don't pay or use a pop up blocker (site will be coded to pop a pay screen when you try to quit or go to a different page)

You can be the next CFAA felon. And the site will clam that fixing the pop up bypass will cost over 5K.

racketeering

[game kid]

Adds computer crimes as a form of racketeering.

Yay! They'll finally stop those **AA groups from sending extortive legal threats over song downloads! ...wait, why are you looking at me like that?

Orin Kerr on draft of new CFAA

[Freddybear]

Orin Kerr from the Volokh Conspiracy has this to say about the "new" draft CFAA:

http://www.volokh.com/2013/03/25/house-judiciary-committee-new-draft-bill-on-cybersecurity-is-mostly-dojs-proposed-language-from-2011/

"Stop taking DOJ’s language from back in 2011 and packaging it as something new. Based on a quick read, it seems that the amendments for 1030 in the new draft are mostly copied from a bill that Senator Leahy offered (with substantial input from DOJ, as I understand it) back in November 2011. I criticized that language here. The new circulating draft also adopts the sentencing enhancements (minus mandatories) and the proposed 1030a that DOJ advocated in May 2011. I criticized that initial DOJ language here. (There’s also a breach notification provision in the new language, but I haven’t followed that issue closely; I don’t know if that proposal is also based on old language.)

In some ways, the new circulating language is even more severe and harsh than DOJ wanted even in the Lori Drew case. For example, the proposed language would make it a felony crime to violate Terms of Service if the TOS violation:

        (I) involves information that exceeds $5,000 in value;
        (II) was committed for purposes of obtaining sensitive or non-public information of an entity or another individual (including such information in the possession of a third party), including medical records, wills, diaries, private correspondence, financial records, photographs of a sensitive or private nature, trade secrets, or sensitive or non-public commercial business information;
        (III) was committed in furtherance of any criminal act in violation United States or of any State, unless such state violation would be based solely on the obtaining of information without authorization or in excess of authorization; or
        (IV) involves information obtained from a computer used by or for a government entity;

This language is really, really broad. If I read it correctly, the language would make it a felony to lie about your age on an online dating profile if you intended to contact someone online and ask them personal questions. It would make it a felony crime for anyone to violate the TOS on a government website. It would also make it a federal felony crime to violate TOS in the course of committing a very minor state misdemeanor. If there is a genuine argument for federal felony liability in these circumstances, I hope readers will enlighten me: I cannot understand what they are.

In short, this is a step backward, not a step forward. This is a proposal to give DOJ what it wants, not to amend the CFAA in a way that would narrow it. "

Re:Orin Kerr on draft of new CFAA

[Anonymous Coward]

I was facing multiple felonies for using a computer to "seriously annoy" someone (that is the applicable text of the computer tampering law). I sent a single prank email. Seriously. Not threats of violence or anything just one of those paste-someone's-face-onto-an-embarrasing-image things. I was young and dumb, yes-- but these laws allow your door to be kicked in and your family held at gunpoint for some of the stupidest reasons. I took a plea for a designated misdemeanor, but I have criminal record now that haunts my career paths in IT.

you should not get less time for robbing 7-11

[Joe_Dragon]

you should not get less time for robbing 7-11 or some other store.

Let make a car analogy

Let say that you find a gas pump that does not force you to pre pay and is wide open for any one to just start pumping gas is about the same thing as longing into a system with no security.

But you can get less time for the Gasoline theft and you did steal something vs even just logging in / copying or looking at data that is still there. Unlike gas that is now missing from the station tank.

Re:you should not get less time for robbing 7-11

[Anonymous Coward]

I once told a friend that the reason that computers ask for a name and a password is because if they only ask for a password, then anyone who knows the password is allowed access regardless of who they are, or even if they knew the password or if they were just lucky and guessed it on their first attempt. However, when a computer asks for a name, then anyone who accesses the computer is misrepresenting themselves if they lie about who they are, which makes the access illegal, even if there was no password involved, simply because if the person was allowed access, then they could get access without using a fake name.

Now, I just made that up on the spot in response to some conversation we were having, and he recognized that, but we both also realized it really made a lot of sense, even if it wasn't actually true. If you ask someone's computer to do something for you, and you don't misrepresent who you are, and the computer fullfills your request, that should be all the permission that you legally require.

It'd be like going into McDonalds, and saying "I have no money, but I'm hungry, can I have something for free?" and getting a free Big Mac, only to then be arrested for theft. It isn't your responsibility to know what McDonalds Inc. permits you to do. If you ask one of their employees to do something for you, and that employee does what you request, you've committed no crime. People always have the right to ask people anything.

It should so obviously be the same way with computers that laws such as this are totally ridiculous. If people are making requests to your web server and it's giving them documents that you don't want them to have, then fix the configuration of your fucking web server.

Control the information too...

[erroneus]

Everywhere you turn, the government is trying to control everything. Information (its secrets), the weapons, the people... the people are increasingly poor and less educated with a higher rate of 'criminals' behind bars than anywhere else in the world. Money has been well under control for a long time. Speaking of which, I hear something is going on with Europe's money beginning in Spain.

We live in interesting times.

Re:Control the information too...

[TheSeatOfMyPants]

We live in interesting times.

"May you live in interesting times" was used as a curse for good reason...

It's disturbing that most people growing up right now will look back on this as the good old days without even pausing to consider that adults of the time were under a great deal of stress, and will mimic the mistakes made in the 90s/00s in hope of returning society to the happy, trusting time they recall.

Re:Thanks to my hostfile, they'll never catch me

[Anonymous Coward]

You douche - you're going to force me to browse at a setting that hides a lot of comments. WTF should people have to scroll down half a page or more, because you're posting another copy/paste rant? Stay on subject, douche!

Simple answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, I'd love to hear an argument that explains how 70% of the prison population isn't white....

It is because they are not white.

Bonus! Guess why 91.5% of the prison population isn't male.

Mike Masnik

[the eric conspiracy]

This story originates from a TechDirt posting by Mike Masnik.

Mike is generally a pretty perceptive reporter, however he occasionally jumps the gun when posting commentary about preliminary documentation such as draft bills or revisions to such bills. I lost a lot of credibility with my Congressman in reacting to a story of his related to a revision being made to the ECPA.

From that experience I learned to not pay attention to his reports on draft bills and similar preliminary documents because it's too early in the legislative process to determine if they have any weight or chance of becoming embedded in actual legislation.

SO this may be worth following, but I don't think it's worth writing to a Congressman about yet.

Re:Mike Masnik

[NeutronCowboy]

Read some of the other stories. There's been quite a lot of traffic around this stories on a lot of law stories. The Volokh conspiracy site doesn't like it either, and pretty much every article I've seen on it - whether its Time, Guardian or anyone else - thinks it's either bad or the worst thing ever. Definitely don't jump the gun, but in this case, the gun has been shot a while ago.

CCA, Wackenhut...

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to keep all those new private, for-profit prisons filled somehow.

Changing my stance on term limits..

[mtrip]

I usually say that term limits are a dumb idea. That facing the public every 4 or 6 years was enough to keep pol's honest. That forcing them out would mean they would sell us out to the highest bidder to keep up the lifestyle of money and power.. But now, after seeing power grab after power grab, I think that they should be forced to be "regular" citizens again and to have to live under these new rules like the rest of us. Would that be enough to slow some of this shit down? I'm just so pissed at the balls they have and the disregard for freedom, and there is no end in sight.

Re:Thanks to my hostfile, they'll never catch me

[Anonymous Coward]

Half a page? Your monitor must be 5" tall. I have to page down 15 times

Even worse, people are looking at me funny because I'm laughing hysterically at what a perfect APK imitation it is.

And you know what? If it keeps APK away then it actually decreases the amount of garbage in a thread.

Don't worry, I'm sure...

[Derekloffin]

...the grid lock in Congress will surely make it so this won't come to pass... right... right?! No? God *bleep* it!

I vote we start pithing our lawmakers

[Anonymous Coward]

make them start living up to their obvious intellect.

How dumb our our "leaders" -- and how dumb are we to elect and defer to them?

Repeal the trokia of harmful laws

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

Computer Fraud and Abuse Act
Digital Millennium Copyright Act
USA PATRIOT act

It is the bane of the civilization. We don't need them. Period.

Re:Thanks to my hostfile, they'll never catch me

[Anonymous Coward]

5" monitor? Sounds more like a cell phone.

Re:Thanks to my hostfile, they'll never catch me

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got it right. The real apk (assuming this ISN'T the real apk) has been spamming his shit on Slashdot for SEVEN YEARS. This guy is at worst a mild annoyance compared to the real thing.

No control

[Anonymous Coward]

No control. no accountability, no responsibility, complete power shift from the people to the government, and since they only listen to big business, complete power control by a few corporations, and since the corporations are increasingly being controlled by fewer and fewer people, fewer and fewer unelected people who have no desire to listen to the population of the country (or anyone else for that matter). The US government went from democracy to corporatocracy over a long period, but most heavily between 1965 and 1985. George W. Bush created a financial disaster, which was left for the current administration. Both US political parties have been (rightfully) accused and are responsible to no one other than large corporations. It's odd: In China, they don't claim to be a democracy, yet the corporations (very much) listen to the government. The US claims to be a democracy, but in reality the government listens only to corporations.

this bill == unconditional surrender to anonymous

[Anonymous Coward]

moreover, how the hell can they expect to maintain control when they are going to create legislation which will cause non-expert brutes to eagerly apply force to people whom they are not certain are the source of a crime, and the source of the crime is easily hoaxable BY A THIRD PARTY? You know, then the anonymous third party becomes the real ruler, not the government goons, and not the goofy corps.

This law is the equivalent of an unconditional surrender to "anonymous"! :-)

Thanks, stupid dupe politicians, for being so eager to shoot yourself in the foot! :-D

they should call this:

[Anonymous Coward]

The "give all of our power to actual malicious hackers act". I mean seriously. If they are going to create a legal environment where any arbitrary person can be prosecuted on an even slimmer pretext for computer crime than already exists, then what this will do is create a HUGE opportunity for actual computer criminals to FRAME innocent people for crimes.

Oh, and don't say "well they will just not prosecute those" because if you use a little game theory, you can abuse the hell out of that attitude and use it as one hell of a weapon against the person that holds it.

Keep the ammunition coming for the bad guys, you dumb fucks. Just because you think you are in a holy position of authority doesnt mean hackers wouldn't be able to break in one of your family member's computers and stuff the hard drive full of kiddy porn right before making an anonymous tip to the new "bust-em-nao" tip hotlines you dumbshits are so eager to create.

Re:Thanks to my hostfile, they'll never catch me

[Yomers]

Parent post looks like form of racketeering to me, considering it's persistence. Maybe we can lock him up after this law passes, or at least force him to take his meds?

But, really, how hard for admins is to block this post by contents? Or maybe just block by IP will suffice? Posting is easy to script, but how does he solve catchpa - either he automated it with one of the services, or posting junk on slashdot is his full time job, or, perhaps, he is a member posting as AC! Nobody have a banhammer here or what?

Oh my...

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys are pretty fucked up.

1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Expands the ways in which you could be guilty of the CFAA — including making you just as guilty if you plan to 'violate' the CFAA than if you actually did so.

I was wondering when the Obama administration was going to introduce thought crimes.

Right on!

[Larry_Dillon]

So many people don't understand this; that there are so many laws that you can't possibly understand. Just about everyone is guilty if the Feds dig deep enough.

Re:Thanks to my hostfile, they'll never catch me

[K. S. Kyosuke]

You douche - you're going to force me to browse at a setting that hides a lot of comments. WTF should people have to scroll down half a page or more, because you're posting another copy/paste rant? Stay on subject, douche!

I wonder if this couldn't be solved with something like Greasemonkey. Find out comments that are already at -1 and completely erase the DOM nodes for those that fulfill certain extra criteria, like being very long or containing some well-known crap.

Don't reply to the early trolls

[Weezul]

Is this the partially off-topic subthread or the wholly off-topic subthread? You really should not put the wholly off-topic one at the start, so I'll assume this is the only partially off-topic subthread, or else hope this comment fixes that.

Obligatory SMBC : http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2923#comic

Because modern "socialism" is not socialism.

[boorack]

In most cases it is corporate fascism masquerading itself as socialism. It starts up with Obama administration which is clearly a fascist government, yet media lie us about it calling them "liberal" or "socialist". The same in EU - all their commissars are corporate sock puppets, yet everyone calls them socialist. The same with greek government giving in to Goldman Sachs.

Corporation don't care if it is "left" or "right". Their only concern is money. JP Morgan and Walmart earn gobs of money on foodstamps program after all...