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Teachers Know If You've Been E-Reading

RougeFemme writes with this story in the New York Times about one disconcerting aspect of the ongoing move to electronic textbooks: "Teachers at 9 colleges are testing technology from a Silicon Valley start-up that lets them know if you're skipping pages, highlighting text, taking notes — or, of course, not opening the book at all. '"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent," said Tracy Hurley, the dean of the school of business at Texas A&M.' 'Major publishers in higher education have already been collecting data from millions of students who use their digital materials. But CourseSmart goes further by individually packaging for each professor information on all the students in a class — a bold effort that is already beginning to affect how teachers present material and how students respond to it, even as critics question how well it measures learning.'"

39 of 348 comments (clear)

  1. Disconcerting? by Xugumad · · Score: 2

    Why is it disconcerting?

    I mean... yes, it can be mis-used. The data should be used to flag up pupils who may be struggling, but will also flag those who may already know the material, but just because data could be incorrectly used doesn't make it inherently worrying.

    Does it?

    1. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because it is worthless.

      Again the easy thing to measure is the wrong thing. If the student read the material from this ebook has not a thing in a the world to do with the student knowing the material or not. He may have learned it in the past, he may read another book about the subject or hacked the ebook so he could read it on another device.

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

    2. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Because the student knows the subject already.
      I had several university classes that I was able to score a 4 in that I never bought or even saw a copy of the written material. It would have been a waste of time and money for me to buy and read those books.

    3. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In some of those cases I did ask, and was promptly denied for that class was a prereq for the next class. I tested out whenever possible in that type of situation.

      The instructor does not need to know, if it is meaningful to him, he is a poor instructor. His job is to present the class, offering the readings and hold tests. Not to be your babysitter.

    4. Re:Disconcerting? by Xeranar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're making some pretty strong assumptions. First that professors care whether students read the material, we don't. This is big person school and you should be doing what we assigned as it is nominally expected. I'm the biggest giver in my department, if young adults come to me and ask for help or a more thorough explanation I always give it. This is a really great metric to see if assigning a reading is worthwhile as to see if the majority reads it or refers to another source. Second the alternatives you give seem a little outlandish. Hacking an ebook isn't exactly grade school knowledge and at most a kid is more likely to download a PDF of the book from a torrent site than break the encryption on the software.

      This is why people get paranoid over nothing. Professors in general are more hurt when you don't read than angry. We wonder why we screwed up more than you.

    5. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Some professors do care if pages are read, or will once they realize that this is an easy metric to gather.

      I once got a 3.0 in a class instead of a 4.0 even though I scored a 97% on the Final, a 96% on the tests and a 98% on Labs. I never attended any class meeting other than examinations. For that my grade was docked by a moron who surely would use this pages read metric as another way to be a petty dictator. He could not write a simple sort on the board without consulting his notes, but somehow I was supposed to waste my time in his class.

      I don't think knowing the material before is that outlandish, nor is downloading a simple tool to crack an ebook. We did that when I was in university and that was pretty much the beginning of that sort of thing. These were generally PDFs that would only open in some DRMed client.

    6. Re:Disconcerting? by leonardluen · · Score: 2

      Shit, who even needs to grade them on their work? You KNOW whether or not they've read the bloody book with this.

      that is awesome because my book will show i read it 432 times, on the first day of class even! so i must be an expert in the material by now!

      if they start monitoring page reads, then just wait for someone to make an script to automatically flip the pages for them so it appears they read it.

    7. Re:Disconcerting? by neokushan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I would guess that this will be mostly used to protect the professor's back. So what if a student doesn't read the material, when it comes down to it and the student scores poorly on an exam, the professor can bring up their statistics and point out that it's the student's fault, not theirs.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    8. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      I graduated a long time ago.

      Some of these were entry level physics which the textbook and high school more than covered and CS classes. If a science textbook needs explanation then textbook is poorly written.

      I would posit that in every 101 level class the prof was just an exam proctor. They were all highschool over again.

    9. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not a babysitter? I sure wish you'd talk to my department chair, my dean, the Provost and the state legislature. Because they're all convinced I need to be the students' babysitter. Guess what happens to my chances at retention, raises, and promotion if I just treat everyone like adults and fail those who don't do the work? Keep in mind: people who know the material already are the exception to the rule. The ill-prepared and, sadly, indolent student is more common. And I'm expected to babysit those students. Some schools are even requiring faculty to carry cellphones and be on call so that when Little Johnny Baseballhat realizes he needs an answer, we can turn to and present. So, yeah, I'd like to live in your world. It would be nice to have people like yourself who are self-starting and ready to move on to more advanced topics.

    10. Re:Disconcerting? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Then it was a waste of time for you to take the class. And depending on the country you're from, you were just wasting your own money if it was a university class. Speaking as someone who's been in academics for decades, I simply asked to move onto a harder class in that case.

      And there are classes that I could teach now where, if for some reason I was sitting in, it would still be meaningful for the instructor to know if I looked at the book, and things I could learn even if I know the subject.

      In the Florida State University system, if you are in the CIS track and you transfer to another institution within the system, you are required to take their "Introduction to Computers" class again. I did, and by that time, I had 15 years professional experience, and had even taught a programming language at one of the schools within that system.

      The cynic in me says that that requirement was just a revenue ploy, but speaking more charitably, it did provide the point at which the students were introduced to that school's computer lab. And this was back when they didn't automatically assume - or require - that you had a PC (or mainframe) of your own, much less VPN access to the campus network.

      There may have been a textbook for that course. I never bought it, if there was. I never missed it.

    11. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Get a job at a private university.

      Any professor not failing Johnny Baseballhat is doing all its students and former students a disservice. Every time that kind of student gets a diploma all the other diplomas from that institution are cheapened.

    12. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      some kids who didn't receive such things in their childhood may have to put forth a lot of effort to do a particular assignment

      So there's the effort that they should be getting credit for.

      A related problem is that kids who are bright and/or come from a good environment come to expect to get A's without much effort. That sets them up to be discouraged or poor students as they get older and the going gets tougher. My 4th grade daughter is a bright kid who (I hope) comes from a decent environment. People used to tell her she was smart, which infuriated me, despite (or because) it's true. I've finally gotten them to stop (mostly) and I tell her that just because she's bright is no excuse to not work at school. I expect more because she's smart. I don't take it to an extreme, like scolding her because she got a B, but I will gently ask her why she didn't do better. Thankfully I think it's sinking in.

    13. Re:Disconcerting? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I teach in college, and I see this attitude every fucking day.

      I have students who will tell me that they already know the subject, that this class isn't giving them anything (entry-level/mid level English), and that they shouldn't have to take it at all. Throughout the course of the semester, almost every student will tell me this.

      In the 6 sections I teach, of ~30 students, I would say 2 actually don't need this class. A VAST majority just see stuff like what you say spouted constantly on-line and by there ignorant ass friends. A VAST majority simply over-value their skills and abilities.

      I'm not saying that you aren't different, I'm just saying that in a majority of cases where 'the student knows the subject already' it really is 'the student believes that s/he knows the subject already, but really doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground, but because s/he is such an entitled, self-important precious little snowflake, s/he can't make wise decisions'. Believe me when I tell you this - in most cases where the student is acting out because "he is bored with the coursework," in all actuality, "he just has piss-poor self-control and his parents don't hold him accountable." The little geniuses that parents see are really just average kids who are supremely lazy in most cases. (Keep in mind that I acted out in school because I was an advanced learner, they do exist, just not as often as you would be led to believe by parents.)

      Somewhere along the way, the attitude in college shifted from the very collegiate ---I'm here to learn--- to the very secondary school ---you have to teach me, good luck---. What you see with this - where instructors can track the number of pages read, is just the simplest form of teacher-student coercion to do actual God Damned work that happens every day in various forms.

    14. Re:Disconcerting? by nine-times · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If professors need that kind of protection, then something else is very wrong.

    15. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why would parents hold an adult accountable?
      Does your Mommy make sure you go to work everyday?
      This attitude that these are children to be coddled is not helping.

      Why are you not failing these folks?
      If a student could test out and get the credit hours, you and your 2 students who don't need it would be much happier.

    16. Re:Disconcerting? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      why test out only to have to still take 10 hours in a now harder class?

      Because you would learn more.

    17. Re:Disconcerting? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 2

      Why would parents hold an adult accountable?

      I assume that you mean parents hold me accountable? I get calls on a semi-regular basis from parents. They want to know why Jonny/Jill isn't doing well. It happens. In my class, I publicly berate the student WHO IS AN ADULT for having their Mommy and Daddy call me. It's a matter of time before this gets me fired.

      Does your Mommy make sure you go to work everyday?

      Nope - she doesn't support my lifestyle at all.

      This attitude that these are children to be coddled is not helping.

      Why are you not failing these folks?

      I think you missed my point. My point is that the attitude that students are there to be GIVEN information, not to earn it, and that EVERYONE is a genius is pervasive. I said nothing about how I do business (I fail the ones that earn it). I really don't think you understood what I said.

      If a student could test out and get the credit hours, you and your 2 students who don't need it would be much happier.

      At my school, we have CLEP tests. The two intro classes I teach are eligible for CLEP. SO. . . . The people taking this class have already failed those exams, and yet still, despite actual, concrete evidence to the contrary, believe that they are smarter than this class and don't need it. It's like there is no logic in a self-important, hand-held student these days.

    18. Re:Disconcerting? by berashith · · Score: 2

      My normal experience from trying to actually show knowledge of a subject usually ends up running into an instructor with the attitude that you just presented. Instead of being allowed an opportunity to show/discuss my current understanding, I get treated as if I think I am a special little snowflake. Then I am told to prove it on the test, which I do. And then I am still forced into a bucket with the average groups. It is fun when the instructors are all so pissed off and jaded that they hate trying to pass knowledge on, and just despise their daily role. I understand the situation, as I have watched my wife grow from a very interested teacher of college level high school kids to someone who has burned out so badly that she is moving back to the corporate world. My current real life has me going back to college for a business degree, after 13 years in datacenter/sysadmin roles, and I am actually answering questions like what does a NIC do, what does http stand for, and which protocol is wireless? There are parts of the class that may be useful, but I am not getting my moneys worth from that nonsense.

    19. Re:Disconcerting? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At that point, textbooks basically become a reference. That was the case for most of my college courses. Even if I wanted to use them to actually learn something, many of them were so horribly written. I had to look up the "how-to" elsewhere. By college, learning should be self directed anyway. Metrics such as "how many pages read" or even class attendance shouldn't factor into grading at all (ridiculous in the age of distant learning courses).

    20. Re:Disconcerting? by eleuthero · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Professors/teachers do. Our society has moved from a culture that values individual initiative to one that demands everything put on a silver platter and hand delivered. There are various web comics drawn to describe the tendency of our culture from the 50s forward to put more and more burden on the teacher rather than the student. If I teach a lesson with a reading, listening, writing, speaking, building, and acting component, anyone who participates should be able to catch at least part of what I am instructing (I've used nearly every general category of learning reinforcement). Yet I still find many students who do not participate. These students come from good homes, I have positive relationships with their parents and with them and a healthy class environment, AND yet I still have students who have "good days" and "bad days".

      Learning is a choice and it does not have to happen even in the best class (and I while I am certainly not perfect, I have one of the best classes I've had in years).

    21. Re:Disconcerting? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 2

      It doesn't matter. A friend of mine taught at a private non-profit accredited university for many years. Despite basically giving the entire class the answers to a test in the form of a pre-test review, they all managed to fail the test. The school brass put pressure on him to pass at least some of the students. This was after spoon feeding them a test that even his wife was able to pass (who has zero college level education and zero knowledge of the field the test covered).

    22. Re:Disconcerting? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Where I studied getting flunked was quite the norm. The tests were very hard and the professors didn't give a rat's ass about what percentage of the students passed their test. It was tough, disappointing but taught us a thing or two in the long run. Now I heard that a lot of universities check what percentage passed and blame the professor if their numbers are too low. Some professors could use the GP's argument in order to maintain high standards in an exam: Yes, 90% failed the test, but look! Most of them didn't even bother to read the book's cover.

    23. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 2

      Hear, hear. I know a university professor of applied engineering who goes through the same problem with their students in every class. The more you simplify something, the more alcohol the student consumes, believing that this class it really easy. The more complex you make it, the more students group together to complain about the horrible unfairness of the instructor and the misplacement of the students who can follow.

      I'm dizzy just thinking about it.

    24. Re:Disconcerting? by chrismcb · · Score: 2

      I've never been a big fan of "grading on the curve" But there are two people involved, a student and a teacher. If everyone fails, is it because all the students are poor, or because the teacher is poor? It isn't a simple matter of "pass this test or else" The teacher should actually be teaching. And if too many students are failing, that is a good indication the teacher ins't doing their job.

  2. BB with good intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    F that.

    I don't care about intent I care about ability. Intent can change unexpectedly.

    1. Re:BB with good intent by fermion · · Score: 2
      It is sad that some consider such micromanagement necessary for a college student. It is like taking roll. When I was in college prof came in, lectured, gave assignments, never mentioned or in larger classes knew who was there. Responsible adults know who to get where they need to be, and if they are not responsible they should not be in college or get a degree.

      So the problem is the good intent here is to help students be responsible. Of course one value of a college degree is that is shows that one can be responsible and get work done without supervision of excessive explanation. Instead of paying a supervisor or expensive training courses, the employer can just pay you large sums of money to get a job done. It is really win win.

      Unless, of course, college, with good intentions, begin to supervise students so they never learn how to be self motivated. Then we get the current generation of kids that have helicopter parents, and overbearing colleges, who write whiny books about how they were actually expected to do work, without specific instructions, after college.

      So really, give them the resources, give them useful tasks, and if a student does not choose to learn then fail them. If they can afford to take a class a second time, then maybe they will succeed. If they don't have the discipline, maybe college is not for them.

      As an aside, such things as this have not developed in a vacuum. Some Universities are under pressure to admit more students. Some Universities are under pressure to admit students who previously would not be admitted. Now, there is no problem with this. I believe that every student should have an opportunity to try University. There is no reason to set a threshold and say at this point one is not going to University. However, some are also thinking there should be graduation standards at Univeristy. For some, like for profit universities that accept on basis on ability to get a student loan, this makes sense. They are selling a product, and there should be some quality assurance. But many universities still sell opportunity to learn, and they should be allowed to vet student based on perceived ability, and then let the student sink or swim. If college is like High School, where we hand hold students through the process, then there really is no point in it.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  3. Aren't they all? by fox1324 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Aren't all 'big brother' systems put into place "with good intent"?

  4. "but with a good intent"???? by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

    -- C. S. Lewis

    (who, on a side-note, also wrote a snazzy novel which more or less served as the blueprint for 1984

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  5. Just test! by White+Flame · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they pass the test, who cares if they just learned from lectures, knew the material from beforehand, looked it up from another source, or other non-textbook methods of learning? The point is that, at the end of the class, the student can show they learned the material.

    1. Re:Just test! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is a hard metric, this is an easy one. People love easy metrics, never mind if they are actually worth anything. With this you can make spreadsheets and powerpoint slides, those allow you have meetings and pretend to be important.

  6. Start the countdown by BigSlowTarget · · Score: 2

    Next up: an app which automatically turns the pages and shares highlighting. (If this is used for grading or implicitly incorporated into paper/project grading).

  7. Re:Make it a criminal act to read someone else's b by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Obligatory link.

    It turns out this hypothetical scenario actually was too extreme, it was set much too far in the future...

    --
    2*3*3*3*3*11*251
  8. The dumbing down continues by concealment · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Education in 1900: you need to be able to do things.

    Education in 1980: you need to be able to know how to do things.

    Education in 2000: you need to memorize things.

    Education in 2013: you need to have done the reading, been present, breathing and perhaps even conscious.

  9. Metrics are usually used to push down and back by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 2
    Metrics are usually used to push down and back, not usually to lift people up. Regardless of the nice and helpful intent asserted by one professor in the article who said "Are you really learning if you only open the book the night before the test? I knew I had to reach out to him to discuss his studying habits." I have a feeling these "metrics" such as "engagement" which somehow tracks "how engaged" you are with a class can be misused to help justify giving a student a lower score or flunking them.
    .
    Students in that article complained that the CourseSmart assessment software unfairly judged their "engagement level" as low if they took class notes on a different software package/editor or even if they took handwritten class notes which were not even considered by the software: At a recent session here of a management training class, Mr. Guardia addressed how to intervene efficiently with underperformers. The students watched a video of a print shop manager chewing out an employee without knowing the circumstances. The moral: The manager needed better data.
    . . Then Mr. Guardia discussed with his students the analytics of their own reading, which he had e-mailed to them. The students suggested that once again better information was needed. Several said their score was being minimized because they took notes on paper.
    . . Others complained there were software bug

    And as to the question of whether these analytics mean anything, the software developer had this to say:

    CourseSmart says the data it collects now is a beginning. "We'll ultimately show how the student traverses the book," Mr. Devine said. "There's a correlation and causality between engagement and success."

    Note the phrase "ultimately show", which means that this is still an experiment. And note the jumping to a conclusion about correlation and causation between engagement and success. While that conclusion may be warranted by other studies, and depending upon the definitions used for "engagement" and for "success" (you can always game the definitions too), the problem is that the monitoring systems way of numerically evaluating "engagement" may be all fucked up if you use handwritten notes or read auxillary works (other textbooks, older classes' texts, or even "outlines" of texts).
    .
    The worst uses of these metrification analytics was highlighted in a Los Angeles Times article yesterday called "Monitoring upends balance of power at workplace, some say". That article had some examples of over-monitoring and over-detailed "supervising" with bad or partial numbers:

    She recently was reprimanded for taking 29 minutes to move a load of boxes; the boxes were much heavier than usual, but the numbers didn't show that, she said.

    Or the example of how to read in what you want:

    One major retailer, for instance, started measuring its employees, only to discover its most productive workers were part-timers who had been there less than a year. It then began to focus on hiring short-term part-timers, said Ed Frauenheim, a senior editor at Workforce Magazine.

    Shouldn't it have focussed on finding out the things that made those workers more productive, and wouldn't it have made more sense to have turned those very productive part-time employees into full time employees with better compensation? Having analytics just gives you/the teacher/the supervisor one extra checkbox to check-off as the supposedly valid reason for giving someone a bad evaluation / a bad or failing grade / a demotion or firing. It creates fake evidence or fake justification which can be fallen upon as a crutch or "just cause" for the action which the person in power may have already wanted to take.

  10. Re:No!!! by orthancstone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe your professors should know if there are better options available.

  11. fuck it all by AndyKron · · Score: 2

    This is fucking bullshit, and why I don't e-read to begin with FUCK IT ALL!

  12. Different Learning Styles by noldrin · · Score: 2

    The problem is Professors want you to read the book as enrichment, but don't actually teach from the book, or test from the book. My last few years of college I stopped buying the textbooks (as the professor would put one on hold at the Library) and found that not opening the book didn't reduce my grades. Now they can reduce your grade for not reading. This is similar to homework, which I found no link between that and understanding homework. I had classes where I performance with excellence on the testing, but the lack of my homework reduce my grade to unsatisfactory.

    Most Colleges subscribe to the theory there is one way to learn, which is not true. I've been in classes where they berate the class for not taking notes. I've never take notes as I found they actually reduce learning for me. They way I learn is listening to lecture, walking around and thinking about them, and then a good night sleep. Most of the other methods of study lead me to temporary remembrance of the subject matter. I stand by my methods of learning as I find that I'm able to recall facts and apply them to subject matter I learned in High School and my peers who sometimes performed better than me on tests appear to have no memory of ever learning the topics.

  13. Good intent? by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 2

    '"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent,"

    Said every dictator, thug, and authoritarian ever...

    Seriously, how can someone say this with a straight face? Oh, wait, I forget...this is a college campus.

    --
    In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky