Slashdot Mirror
"Micro-Gig" Sites Undermining Workers Rights?
Mystakaphoros writes "An article in The Atlantic examines the effects sites like TaskRabbit, Fiverr, and Rev.com are having on employment and freelancing. (I would add Amazon's Mechanical Turk to the list as well.) As the article mentions, 'Work is being stripped down to the bone. It's as if we're eliminating the 'extraneous' parts of a worker's day — like lunch or bathroom breaks — and paying only for the minutes someone is actually in front of the computer or engaged in a task.' How many Slashdotters have used these sites, either to hire or work? What's been your experience?"
Solidarity brother
Union Yes
Yep, it's just contract labor. If you're selling it, price your labor appropriately, taking into consideration that you are not getting benefits, etc. If you're buying it take into consideration that you're not getting loyalty, retaining experience and knowledge, etc.
You cannot watch the car repair guy do the work to see if he is goofing off or taking a dump. You cannot have a legal way of automating this either.
Oh, you are a computer programmer. Install this big-brother app as terms of your employment contract and THEN we'll pay you.
BTW: If the camera can't see your eyes while the keyboard is being used, you don't get paid.
1984 has arrived!
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
The difference is that you expect to pay a mechanic or plumber $50 to $100 an hour... People on these sites expect to get code written for less than minimum wage.
I was on rent-a-coder for a while before they changed the name. And the expectations and offered pay were ridiculous.
The difference is that generally the "labour" part of the equation is an inflated hourly rate in order to cover the down-time in between tasks. They also have minimums so that if it takes 10 minutes you still get billed for 30. And
Generally freelancers have become accustomed to properly accounting for this extra rate charge on every billable hour to fill in the gaps. When you're "working" for mechanical turk you're really no longer an employee you're a business owner. Not everyone is cut out to run a business and nor should they need to, specialization is important. However, with businesses looking to become more efficient they can start calling their janitor a "contractor" and make them pay all of the payroll taxes. Technically that's illegal unless the janitor is also responsible for buying his own mops, brooms and can set his own hours but companies have been pushing the edge of what's legal (and often crossing it) for some time. The goal is often to make as many people 'freelance' as is humanely possible to avoid paying benefits or taxes or comply with safety regulations since their "employees" aren't actually employed--they're separate private businesses working alongside them.
The easiest way to avoid worker's rights is to avoid making them legally an employee.
On the micro-gig sites, remember that you'll be competing with people who can live quite comfortably on $5/day. If you can live on that, more power to you. Otherwise, you'll want to find other ways to peddle your services.
Easy Online Role Playing Campaign Management
My wife did Mechanical Turk for a few weeks when out of work, and oh boy. The only way to make even minimum wage is to completely game the system. It is supposed to be self quality checking, but that doesn't really work. Her work (writing in this case) was so far above the norm (she did graduate college) that it was off the scales. The max she could make doing honest work was around $3-$4 per hour. Most workers there just spam the system trying to grab jobs that are we few cents more, cut and paste some garbage, rinse and repeat. In other words, you get what you pay for.
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
Because illegal labor isn't essential to the economy -- that's just hand-waving, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain bullshit. Well, the labor may well be essential, but not at that price. That whole situation is fucking criminal and should be treated as such, and using it as a basis of comparison is asinine at best.
This is what a directly competitive global market looks like my friend, when you have people with living expenses in double digit dollars competing with those who have triple digit expenses (at least), a disparity in acceptable wages begins to appear.
Of course a programmer worth their salt will have worked hard enough that they should perhaps be willing to accept no less than a certain minimum, but that is nonetheless a competitive advantage they have in developing countries - why would they compete fairly when they don't have to? Would it even be fair to cut themselves off at the feet like that?
There is no solution to this quandry. Just pick your battles and keep your customers, really, lots of businesses value security and reliability over low cost.
Here's the funny part and a bit of consolidation:
Nobody skilled would ever take such a job, so it's a by morons for morons type thing.
I make my living as a programmer for hire. Clients find me, ask for the moon, and I give it to them - but my hourly rate only reflects time on task. I don't charge my clients for trips to the water cooler. Unless I'm on site, I average about 6 hours a day. But this can be compensated by the fact you can adjust your own rates. For all the bitching about evil corporations, I'm surprised more people don't start their own S Corp and do this. It's a lot more responsibility, but you are the master of your own fate. (You are still responsible for your own fate when working for a business, but I suppose a lot of people don't see it that way) In fact, you may not even see corporations as all that evil when you're on the other end of the stick.
Take a look at the history of the garment industry and piece work.
As the internet tends to do, it disaggregates things – breaking things up into component pieces. Why does this matter? Workers become more fragmented. Thus, relatively speaking, this shifts power towards management, which is important when you try to negotiate your wage.
Also, companies tend to invest less in their works – such as training, pension plans, etc. Why bother when there is no longer expectation?
As for your example, you may or may be paying for “labor”. May places have rate sheets – Installing new breaks is X hours and the workmen are paid for X hours of work even if they don’t work X hours. If journey men take 2X hours – well – they are journey men. If a master mechanic can do it in .5 hours – well he is a master mechanic.
Yes, but you can for a:
plumber
painter
electrician
furnace duct cleaner
maid
nanny
drywaller
etc.
Basically if you are going to someone else's private property to perform work, they can legally monitor your activities and pay you accordingly.
No, despite what your mom told you, you aren't special. It's just that latent feeling of entitlement that programmers get due to a lack of sunlight.
Welcome to the club.
I think we're at the point now where if a job can be digitized and sent elsewhere then it will end up being done by the lowest-overall-cost person (for a given level of quality) regardless of where they are in the world.
So the only long-term way to make a living is to ensure that you're working on something specialized (so there's less competition), or that you're at the top of the skill heap (so you can charge more), or you're working on something that can't easily be sent elsewhere.
We're already seeing the Canadian east coast becoming a popular place to locate call centres for North American businesses because they speak good English, the cultural variations are minimal from the rest of North America, and there are fewer timezone issue to worry about (as opposed to India or China).
Because being skilled in a field means that person is somehow immune to becoming unemployed and desperate?
Most states do require some breaks per 8 hours. They do not require they be paid though.
you don't pay for the actual labor time
there are standards that say how much time it takes to complete a task in fixing a car. you pay by the number of hours in the book
MOST STATES do not require breaks or lunch periods for employees. Or vacation, holiday, sick pay, insurance, minimum hours, max hours, etc...
Irrelevant, since these people are NOT employees. They are contractors. When I use Mechanical Turk to farm out work (and I often do) the Turkers set their own hours, they use their own equipment, they are free to work on other jobs, etc. Those criteria make them contractors, not employees. USA labor law is further irrelevant since very few of these people are based in the US. Most of the Turkers I have worked with are in South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).
The fallacy of the article is the fundamental assumption that the producer of work is only valid when controlled by the guiding hand of a company.
Workers rights exist to protect workers from abusive companies. But the case here doesn't even come close to rubbing up against that issue. The Gigers in these cases are able to work as much or as little as they please. No boss is standing behind them abusing them into performing more to justify management's salary or company profit margins.
Gigers will likely fall into two main groups:
A) Out of work and struggling to make ends meet.
This type is probably grateful for a way to make money in a world where there's currently no company to make him "a valuable asset and a productive member of society". No corporate overlord, no workers rights issues. If they dislike this type of work, they can continue seeking a job somewhere or they can learn to do without earning money for other people and keep making direct contacts for work.
B) People who do gigs on the side. Again, no right issues come up in this case. It's a totally voluntary way to make extra bucks.
I've used Fiverr to buy about 60 gigs now. In each case they were professional, quick and delivered exactly what they advertised. (in my case almost all were for artistic talent for personal and team building exercises). No company is offering me an equivalent service for less than an absurd amount of money which would have been a non-starter and caused me to engage in zero purchases. Their overhead for profit and management salaries is so high, they price themselves out of the market for what I need.
Instead of trying to demonize these companies, look at them as a means by which a lot of people are making ends meet while no company is willing to hire them. Life does not require anyone to work for a company. Sure they serve their purposes and for many scales and scopes of work, it takes a company to achieve success. I love the company that I work for. But I do not mistake that for believing that every person alive must either work for a company or earn nothing.
I'd rather look forward to a day when the gig market evolves and gig companies start offering discount benefit packages to Gigers who perform and produce well. What better way to hold onto good talent for your service.
Warning: Teh poster of this messaeg is lysdexic
We have hardly any left in this country as it is. Every year we strip away further at what used to be worker's rights. Every year we get closer to them having none left at all.
As we continue to empower the wealthiest at the expense of the least fortunate, we continue to step closer to delivering fascism for the people.
I don't always post anonymously, but when I do, its because I'm talking about something wrong that I see go on everyday where I work.
Dice is listing thousands of jobs which are open to the "right person" but not to everyone with the listed qualifications. In many cases, the companies posting these positions reject everyone that applies for them in order to justify hiring someone who needs a visa. A lack of qualified candidates for all the "open positions" in my department is used as a management excuse to extend work hours out beyond 50.
A headhunter I used to get temp-to-hire work through once told me that in many cases ads were an attempt to entice specific individuals to leave their position with a competitor, or a signal to said individual that they should quit their position and begin waiting for their no-compete to run out.
Point being, there are lots of reasons to advertise a job opening in the technical fields that have nothing to do with a position actually being open to all qualified comers.
No, Captain Belligerence, contractors in the USA (and most of the West) work in this manner. If they don't want to, they can try to be a conventional employee. As a contractor, you have great freedom and flexibility but few perks-- tradeoff.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
You must have not contracted then. The rate depends on how long the contract is. Benefits and extra tax cost about 35% extra. So if you have a long period of continuous contract, you charge closer to that mark up. If short periods, say like a day, then you mark up much more to account for down time.
Holy crap... do you think we're all stupid? SEIU rakes in many millions in dues each year. How else could they contribute $18 million a year to political candidates?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
From the Tom Friedman book of that name. You are competing with the entire world's English speakers and internet users. Even if it costs them $5 a day to live versus $50 for you.
yeah, pretty much. that's how supply & demand works.
That assumes a functional market.
The IT labor market is dysfunctional.
But no one believes it because everyone employed is cocky.
I'm employed and therefore I qualify and everyone who isn't employed is a screwup.
The system works!
I don't care WHAT you do, this what will happen:
You will be at your job working on whatever your working on. You'll see new technology coming along and you'll think "Gee, I better learn it!"
In meantime, you're working your 55+ hours a week with the too frequent 80 hour weeks because your employer refuses to hire an entry level kid to do your grunt work.You're tired. You have to keep up with your job. Take a class? Hardly! Study on your own? Too tired. You NEED to get away from the computer sometime!
Then the system your working on becomes a "Legacy" system and your company farms out the work to Elbonia. They then tell you that you can keep your job if you move to Elbonia and take an Elbonian level of salary - a 75% pay cut.
You think, "I got skills! Fuck'em!" and you turn them down; which is exactly what they thought you'd do.
So you enter the labor market. And you see that your skills are "obsolete". You take classes but to no avail because the employers want a few years of experience
You say, "You'll learn! On your own time and dime!'
They tell you that they need someone 'to hit the ground running!'
So you go on. And on. And on....
Now folks start wondering why a skilled IT person who "knows computers" is out of work. They think what's his problem? Is he a drunk? Obviously, there's something wrong.
You may not hear it often, but you get that feeling based on the way people react and questions they ask you and their tone. Like:
"Have you been looking for work all this time?!"
With a tone of NFW! No one with skills should have to look for work in IT! Can't happen.
Out of work == No good.
And you notice that all the folks who are working steadily are a bit younger.
You're told, "Well, older people want more money!"
You try to retort - like shouting in a hurricane - No! I'll take market rates!
But you're still told that you don't have the skills - I don't care what skills you have, you WILL be told that.
Then folks start reading about how Google just has young faces, about the H1-Bs, and other dysfunctional things that happen in the IT field. Then they say, "Have you considered leaving the field?"
"yes. But, when I try, I'm asked, 'Why do you want to leave such a lucrative career?!'"
Please shoot me.
When I as at IBM, I saw all these "old" mainframers being moved into the OS/2 area, and being young and arrogant thinking, "The poor out of date bastards! That'll NEVER happen to me!"
And it did.
Until the IT labor market stops being so dysfunctional - and the blame rests squarely on the employers - I tell folks, if you can, go to medical school./
But that won't last either .....
A better solution: provide a basic income, and let each individual supplement it if ..
Why such half measures? A still better solution: provide infinite income! 20 Ferraris a week for everyone, with unlimited hookers and blow! Unlimited free health care, and no one has to work!
Or, you know, you could accept the reality that no one owes you anything, and you're going to have to work for your keep, or depend on charity (charity: what you get because the giver is generous, not because you deserve the gift).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Well, not necessarily. If you are a contractor, you negotiate your bill rate to cover your costs for insurance, vacation and sick time off...that's why bill rates are high for contractors, or at least on surface it appears they are making TONS more money that normal W2 employees.
But it can be a sweet deal. I have incorporated myself, and love it when I can do the 1099 corp to corp deal. I get a nice high deductible insurance policy, say $1200, and that qualfies me to set up a HSA (Health Savings Account) into which I sock the max pre-tax dollars I can (approx $3K a year?). Out of that, I pay my regular meds and maintenance trips to the dr, dentist..etc. I usually tell them I'm paying myself and they have often given me like a 15% discount right off the top.
Anyway, HSA, unlike FSA...are not use it or lose it..they grow and grow with you, and at retirement, if you have it all built up due to being healthy...you can convert it to retirement dollars.
Also, with contracting...you get to write off everything. And, if you look into it..set yourself up as a "S" corp, and you can save paying alot of SS and medicare (employent taxes).
When you go into contracting, you are the employer and employee, and you have to think of it that way when doing billing rates and paperwork, sure it is a bit extra work, but if you are good at what you do, it is one of the last ways in the US to actually keep more of your hard earned money from the tax man.
Although..the current administration is trying to chink away at that foundation too unfortunately.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I stand corrected,by your language and posts in the past, I assumed you were UK.
Well, to each his own, I don't see anything moral or ethical one way or the other using every legal means there is to keep as much money as I can that I make for myself. It isn't the govts money, it is mine. They didn't earn it, I did.
I didn't earn it for society either, I earned it for me.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy being charitable with both time and money. I prefer to have that 'choice' and not have the govt force me to do so.
But it is money, plain and simple, and I see nothing that involves ethics in any fashion with regards to how much I keep and how much I have to give to the govt.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
People with money tend to misrepresent socialism as theft, and people without tend to misrepresent capitalism as slavery. The lesson: simpleminded people have simpleminded ideas and will never comprehend the incredible complexity of the world we live in.