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Bin Laden Raid Member To Be WikiLeaks Witness

the simurgh writes in with the latest in the court-martial of Bradley Manning. "A military judge cleared the way Wednesday for a member of the team that raided Osama bin Laden's compound to testify at the trial of Pfc. Bradley Manning charged in the WikiLeaks massive classified document leak. Col. Denise Lind ruled for the prosecution during a court-martial pretrial hearing. Prosecutors say the witness, presumably a Navy SEAL, collected digital evidence showing that the al-Qaida leader requested and received from an associate some of the documents Manning has acknowledged leaking. Defense attorneys had argued that proof of receipt wasn't relevant to whether Manning aided the enemy, the most serious charge he faces, punishable by life imprisonment. 'The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the intelligence is given to and received by the enemy,' Lind said. The judge disagreed."

43 of 212 comments (clear)

  1. Surveillance by drinkydoh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The mass surveillance and mass interception that is occurring to all of us now who use the internet is also a mass transfer of power from individuals into extremely sophisticated state and private intelligence organizations and their cronies like Google. The Pentagon is maintaining a line that WikiLeaks inherently, as an institution that tells military and government whistleblowers to step forward with information, is a crime. They allege we are criminal, moving forward. Now, the new interpretation of the Espionage Act that the Pentagon is trying to hammer in to the legal system, and which the Department of Justice is complicit in, would mean the end of national security journalism in the United States.

    1. Re:Surveillance by captainpanic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True. And it is happening right under all your noses, and the press is still able to report on it, so it's not like you are all caught by surprise... and despite the fact that you can all vote in a democratic system, this has been going on for well over a decade now.

      Americans, you've got nobody to blame but yourselves.

    2. Re:Surveillance by game+kid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and the press is still able to report on it

      ...for now.

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      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    3. Re:Surveillance by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a big difference between 'whistleblowing on a crime' and 'leaking every single thing you have access to in the hope that some of it may be criminal'.

    4. Re:Surveillance by elloGov · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is far-fetched and paranoia until it happens to you. :) Truth is that we live under a totalitarian regime with some privileges. Our ongoing maltreatment of foreign people should have been a warning, now they are coming for us. No conspiracy here, man's self-perpetuating thirst for power has brought us here. My advice is to never grab the attention of your government and it's long-reaching arms. Stick to the masses and stay low.

    5. Re:Surveillance by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a big difference between 'whistleblowing on a crime' and 'leaking every single thing you have

      Unless "everything you have" is so illegally outrageous that the story needs to be told.

      Furthermore, If Manning is going to be held accountable for information Al-Queda obtained, then the Pentagon and CIA should be held accountable in the same fashion when an unencrypted laptop with sensitive dat is lost, or a website database is compromised* due to gross negiligence. Right now, the only consequences are "whooops, lol sorry bro. have a free 6-month credit inquiry"

      * http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/03/nasa-inspector-gen-says-stolen-laptop-contained-space-station-control-codes.php
      http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/02/8821/
      http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2007/02/hundreds_of_fbi/
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/01/malware_pentagon_usb_ban/

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    6. Re:Surveillance by digitalchinky · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a former secret 3 letter agency drone I'd like to point out that the internet is the metaphorical iceberg. Time to loosen the tinfoil I think : ) Your 'probably' may (or may not) scale more appropriately as the tip of the tip of the iceberg. Some perspective; A single satellite can relay several thousand unique transmissions. A single piece of fiber can convey orders of magnitude more data again. How much data do we push around daily, not just via the internet, but all networks combined? The NSA has a finite budget, a finite number of people, finite capability, finite everything.

    7. Re:Surveillance by Reschekle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem though is that the NSA has been caught red-handed on multiple occasions. Then we hear about NSA's massive new data center that is under construction. So we want to know what they're up to and what they're doing. They won't tell us. The courts refuse to do their jobs when we try to sue and discover the information. Even NSA's budget is a state secret. So maybe what the NSA is doing is totally above board (or maybe not) but they refuse to have any level of accountability so as far as I am concerned, and many other people are concerned, they are guilty until they can prove their innocence.

      Given the history of our government misusing its powers, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to assume that the NSA is up to no good.

    8. Re:Surveillance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Americans, you've got nobody to blame but yourselves.

      No, there is a bit more to it than that.

      Rigged elections, for one.

      The average person doesn't have the power to stop this machine even if
      he or she were perfectly willing to sacrifice his or her life. And frankly, since
      most of the people who live in the US are pieces of shit, why should anyone
      even care. I am an American and I am disgusted by most Americans and their
      selfishness and idiocy. The show will go on, and no one will stop it.

      Here's the REAL bottom line : the world is changing, and no civilized country
      will in reality offer significantly better government or living conditions for
      a middle class person than the US does. The whole world is a cesspool now,
      so you may as well get used to the smell.

    9. Re:Surveillance by captainpanic · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is not about sacrificing... it's just casting your vote. There are already 3rd party options... just vote for them.

      As for the cesspool... I am pretty pleased with my west-European country and my government. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty good. You're welcome to have a look, and we don't even ask you get a visa for that. Just hop on a plane.

    10. Re:Surveillance by feynmanfan1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also see Jane Harman, U.S. congresswoman, who was taped making a deal with the Israel lobby to influence the "Justice" department on the Lawrence Franklin espionage case. Franklin was found guilty of passing top secret classified documents about U.S. policy on Iran to Israel and sentenced to over 12 years in prison. His sentence was later reduced to only 10 months house arrest. Bradley Manning on the other hand is only accused of handing over secret documents, no top secret ones, to wikileaks and yet is facing far more severe punishment and his motives are arguably to expose illegal acts rather than to aid a foreign power. A clear example of double standards in the U.S. "justice" system.

    11. Re:Surveillance by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      It's easy to determine, actually. Fighting a war. There is no requirement for "open government" in a Republic.

    12. Re:Surveillance by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      I have, and while templates are nice, reality is different. There may be perfect systems in philosophy, but none of those perfect systems have ever successfully been implemented because it is impossible to do so with so many inputs with different motivations. Compromises must be made. There is no perfect system of governance and there is no perfect economic system, despite volumes upon volumes of work from philosophers for thousands of years. Reality dictates that there must be secrets and that they must be kept. The fact that ugly things are hidden on occasion doesn't change the fact that there are secrets that must be kept secret for the benefit of the nation.

  2. Dangerous by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This would basically mean that nobody could report on wars, because anyone doing so could be accused of aiding the enemy. Imagine a version of this where Bin Laden said, "Get me a copy of the New York Times!" and the government accused reporters of aiding the enemy.

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    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:Dangerous by runeghost · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ah, but as long as the New York Times makes sure to jump whenever the government says, "frog" they'll be left alone. What could possibly be wrong with that arrangement?

    2. Re:Dangerous by Sparticus789 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a difference between public knowledge and classified information. He is not being prosecuted for releasing weather reports, stock values, or a crossword puzzle. Manning is on trial for leaking classified information. Big difference.

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    3. Re:Dangerous by jimbolauski · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is a big difference between a person signing documents swearing they will not disseminate classified information under penality of jail, fines, or death, then dissemination classified information anyway, and a reporter who has not sworn to protect classified information, publishing information. A good example of this is Robert Novak of the Washington Post published the name of cia operative Valerie Plame which was classified information, neither Novak, nor the Post were ever charged. There is a big difference between the press and a person entrusted with classified information dissemination that information.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    4. Re:Dangerous by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here is my problem with this kind of reasoning.

      If you want to make disclosure of classified information illegal, fine. Make it illegal, and assign to it an appropriate penalty. Then when somebody does it, charge them with that crime.

      The problem here is that the charge is aiding the enemy, and the argument is that the enemy obtained the classified info and thus it aided them. I'm not sure that really should be allowed to stick. The problem with this is that it forces you to basically assign the same punishment to accidentally leaving your briefcase with some HR info on the bus and sneaking into the command tent, taking photos of the next day's plans, and transmitting them to enemy HQ.

      When people commit a crime they should be charged with the crime they actually committed. I'm not suggesting that leaking classified info should be legal. However, the general trend of piling as many charges on as possible is bad for justice. There is a reason that we don't put people in prison for life for jaywalking or speeding.

      If you're going to charge somebody with aiding the enemy you should have to show that:
      1. The aid would have actually had some significant benefit to the enemy. We're not talking about exposing scandals that lose hearts and minds - I'm talking about improving their ability to achieve military objectives in military operations. So, pictures of tortured prisoners don't count, but plans leaked to an enemy agent or sabotage coordinated with an enemy attack counts just fine. I'm not sure I'd even include sabotage in general in this unless the intent was actually to aid the enemy.

      2. There was intent to aid the enemy - it wasn't just accidental or incidental (unless it was just so obvious that the aid would have resulted that it could be considered criminal negligence).

      Otherwise, just charge them with mishandling classified material.

    5. Re:Dangerous by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      On your point (1), it's pretty clear that Manning/Wikileaks loses on that count. He didn't filter the info, he did a massive info dump to the public that included operationally-sensitive details of ongoing military/CIA operatives and operations.

      I'm certainly open to citations (that point to specific details that were leaked which actually provided military aid to the enemy), but most of what was dumped was merely embarrassing, and there was effort made to redact materials that were more sensitive.

      I'm not aware of any publicly-released data which most people would consider operationally sensitive. Again, I'm open to examples, but the mere fact that they were classified does not mean that their release aided the enemy.

  3. Smart by Sparticus789 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The prosecution is alleging that the document leak perpetrated by Bradley Manning directly aided the enemy (al-Qaeda) in their operations against the United States. So what's the problem with including testimony that documents leaked by Bradley Manning were present during the Bin-Laden raid? It's common sense.

    You can harp on for days about how "the documents revealed war crimes" or "it was the right thing to do." Ultimately, the documents were classified, Bradley Manning signed a document stating that he would not reveal classified information when he enlisted in the Army, and did it anyways. He did not release the information the the DOD Inspector General, to a member of the House or Senate intelligence committee, or even to a legitimate member of the press corp. He released it to some foreign website with no press credentials. That makes it a crime. He's not a protected whistle-blower because he did not send the information to any of the above whistleblower channels. Even the NSA warrantless wiretapping whistle-blower had enough common sense to go through the New York Times, which meant he was protected as a whistle-blower.

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    1. Re:Smart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That makes it a crime

      Covering up war crimes is or should be a much bigger crime.

      Just wait for the veterans to come along and tell us (like they usually do in this discussion), that as a soldier you swear to uphold the constitution, not support cover-ups, that you pledge allegiance to the country, not to the general or even president, and even that you salute the uniform of your superior, not the person wearing it.

      Your suggestions that war crimes should be reported to the people trying to cover up said war crimes and not to anyone else is plain and simple support for covering up war crimes.

    2. Re:Smart by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Covering up war crimes is or should be a much bigger crime.

      Should be...

      The people behind Abu Ghraib go free, Bradley gets screwed for ratting on his leaders. So it goes.

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      No sig today...
    3. Re:Smart by Sparticus789 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Show me, with citation, what war crimes were committed that were revealed through the Bradley Manning document dump.

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      sudo make me a sandwich
    4. Re:Smart by Confusedent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The idea of "approved whistleblower channels" kind of negates the idea of whistleblowing. The mainstream media was complicit in the propaganda run-up to the Iraq war, which of course doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't be trusted to expose important information in the leaked documents, but it shows a conflict of interest between the powers that be and the entire goal of whistleblowing. If you can't release documents to the public, but only to approved whistleblower channels who can then decide unilaterally whether the rest of us should be informed, it isn't whistleblowing.

    5. Re:Smart by abigsmurf · · Score: 3, Informative

      The helicoptor was in an active combat zone. There were reports of RPG fire. The press were not wearing identifying uniforms that press in an active warzone are expected to wear. The children in the van were only visible when looking carefully at the footage and freeze framing, not in a combat situation (wtf were they doing driving children to the site of a bombing) and the van appeared to be insurgents recovering the weapons and preventing wounded combatants being captured.. There was an RPG launcher and an AK-47 clone visible in the footage (in addition to the pilots mistaking the camera for another RPG). The pilots waited for authorisation before firing.

      As tragic as it was, procedure was followed and there a combination of circumstances contributed to the mistake. It was not a war crime.

    6. Re:Smart by Confusedent · · Score: 2

      Imo, there's a big difference between having an ethical responsibility to try to avoid collateral damage when whistleblowing, and having the judicial system destroy your entire life with charges punishable by life imprisonment or the death penalty for the simple act of whistleblowing itself. Plus, iirc, Wikileaks actually gave the Pentagon the chance to help redact the documents before releasing them, but for obvious reasons they wanted no part in facilitating a leak. I just bring it up because that perceived irresponsibility is on the part of the Pentagon as much as Bradley Manning, imo. My comment was meant to debunk the one I replied to about how whistleblowing shouldn't be protected unless it occurs through government-approved channels. It may or may not have been an irresponsible way to leak the information, but he's being charged for leaking the information whatsoever, not for failing to properly redact them and reduce collateral damage.

    7. Re:Smart by s.petry · · Score: 2

      The prosecution is alleging that the document leak perpetrated by Bradley Manning directly aided the enemy (al-Qaeda) in their operations against the United States. So what's the problem with including testimony that documents leaked by Bradley Manning were present during the Bin-Laden raid? It's common sense.

      Manning never gave anything to the enemy, he gave information to a media outlet. I think you are missing some of the "common sense" you are touting.

      You can harp on for days about how "the documents revealed war crimes" or "it was the right thing to do."

      It was the right thing to do if the classification of the documents was intended to prevent knowledge of illegal activities. Search what was dumped, and the reason for the classification is obvious. Perhaps not for everything, but for enough that it did matter.

      Ultimately, the documents were classified, Bradley Manning signed a document stating that he would not reveal classified information when he enlisted in the Army, and did it anyways. He did not release the information the the DOD Inspector General, to a member of the House or Senate intelligence committee, or even to a legitimate member of the press corp.

      Well, it's obvious that you know jack squat about both the military and just as little about classified work. No such document exists when you enlist in the Army. I'm not going to teach you about either Military or Classified work, I'm only going to tell you that you are absolutely wrong.

      To your next point about who he released data too, you are also wrong. If the Military is performing illegal acts, Manning was correct not to release data to the Military. There is no DOD IG so that one is laughable, as is your next. You personally have as much access, and probably more access, to a Congressman or Senator. It's not like as an enlisted person you can just walk into the office, let alone walk into the office and say "guess what?". Manning's duty as a citizen was to ensure that the data was released to someone he felt would handle the data in the best possible manner. You can disagree with how Wikileaks handled the data, but that's a different issue and is not related to Manning or what he's being charged with.

      He released it to some foreign website with no press credentials. That makes it a crime.

      What? First there is no such thing as a website with press credentials. Even if their was, you think releasing documents showing that the US Government is doing bad things to a website with "Approved Press site for the US Government" will accomplish anything? Not only are you fabricating information, you are doing so very poorly.

      He's not a protected whistle-blower because he did not send the information to any of the above whistleblower channels. Even the NSA warrantless wiretapping whistle-blower had enough common sense to go through the New York Times, which meant he was protected as a whistle-blower.

      The NYT approves every govt. story through the CIA and Government. The little you know about happenings in our own country is a testament to the strength of the propaganda we currently call "News" and "Journalism". Keep up the good work citizen 2625955.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  4. He swore to uphold the constitution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He swore to uphold the laws of the United States and the international law the government have treaties to uphold.

    NO Non-Disclosure agreement or secrecy act can be used to force the concealment of the commission of a crime. And trying to do so makes you an accessory before and after the fact.

    1. Re:He swore to uphold the constitution. by Arker · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is just utter nonsense.

      "...criminally stupid enough to wander towards an active military firefight walking with individuals carrying AK's and RPG's."

      Dont recall there being any RPGs. Definitely plenty of AKs, because it would have been criminally stupid to be out driving around Baghdad without them. A civilian doesnt magically become something else simply because he is armed, and the US, with our second amendment, should be acutely aware of that.

      They had AKs because everyone in that area carried AKs and it would have indeed been "criminally stupid" for them to travel in that area without bodyguards. They took no aggressive actions, and they didnt 'roll up into a firefight' they attempted to render assistance to the wounded AFTER the firefight had come to a conclusive ending.

      The video is direct evidence of a war crime on its face. It's not Manning, but everyone else who had access and did NOT leak it, who should be charged for that. The cables reveal many other crimes and misbehaviour by the US government, are essentially all over-classified, and constitute information that the citizens have a right to see, and a NEED to see, in order to do our job in the republic.

      The fact that we keep promoting criminals and throwing whistleblowers in the brig instead of the other way around is probably the biggest threat to the national security of this country today.

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  5. There's a big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a big difference between classified documents that are meant to be secret and classifying every single thing in case something embarrasing is in them.

    1. Re:There's a big difference by abigsmurf · · Score: 3, Funny

      aaaaand that was a reply to the wrong post.

    2. Re:There's a big difference by moeinvt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well said. The government is now classifying anything that might make the government look bad.

    3. Re:There's a big difference by s.petry · · Score: 2

      They have been doing that for a long time, the difference is really that now we have easier access to the knowledge. Even programs we know about by pieces being declassified have huge portions of the program remaining classified simply because 1) it's embarrassing and 2) you would want to prosecute people currently in positions of power that were on those programs.

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      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  6. They haven't shown that this was any different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "He is not being prosecuted for releasing weather reports, stock values, or a crossword puzzle"

    What he HAS released hasn't been shown to be of any more aid to OBL than these would be.

    Classified information cannot, repeat CANNOT, be used to hide criminal acts.

    Classified information incorrectly classified is NOT validly classified and almost all classified information SHOULD NOT be classified. If the rules for classification AS APPLIED are "Classify everything", then the classification cannot be of any guide as to whether the information SHOULD be classified and kept secret.

    Manning is on trial for exposing the criminal acts of his superiors.

    Something his superiors predecessors insisted should be done in all cases. cf Nuremberg.

  7. Re:Bradley Manning's innocent by moeinvt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    BS.
    His conversations with that douchebag LAME-O were mainly a discussion about his personal moral dilemma. He wasn't bragging about his "hacking skills" one bit. He had access to the information so there was no technical prowess required.
    He recently made a statement in court (which of course the government didn't want the public to hear) that was surreptitiously recorded. You should listen to it.

  8. Re:Bradley Manning's innocent by peppepz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who cares about his motivation? He's done a right thing and now he risks his life, as if he lived in Iran.

  9. To consider... by 3seas · · Score: 2

    If everyone know teh secrets ... then the secrets are not secrets and as such become null and void of any value in being secret.

    So how do you aid an enemy with a secret that is not secret? You don't, but only fool those who believe its a secret.

    I do recall that some judge ruled that the US government, though the secrets are no longer secret, can still pretend they are.

    So who is fooling who here?

  10. Seems to be missing something... by dirk · · Score: 2

    While I think it is the right decision to allow testimony on whether they found the documents at the compound, it seems to be missing a key component. They charge is "aiding the enemy". Shouldn't they also have to prove it actually aided them? What if Bin Laden read through the documents and they were all stuff he didn't care about? Or what if he just was interested in them and wanted to read them (as many people did). Possession of the documents doesn't prove that they aided the enemy anymore than a copy of Twilight would.

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    "Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
    1. Re:Seems to be missing something... by Pecisk · · Score: 2

      Read actual UCMJ article http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm104.htm, it's actually very clear that releasing any classified information released knowingly it will "leak" to the enemy is enough for "aiding enemy" definition (in eyes of UCMJ, remember Manning isn't civilian in this case). Prosecution will have to prove that Manning truly knew what WikiLeaks will do with them though.

      I can agree with judge, this charge can't be dismissed. Will see what will be decision on this case.

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  11. Manning: American Hero by MrKaos · · Score: 2

    This is how America treats it's patriots, those who swore to protect the nation against domestic threats. The corruption that eats away at America is almost complete. The fear of the government in America has turned most of the population in to unquestioning slaves that beleive whatever they are told.

    Greed and the desire for material gains has turned that beacon of democracy into a parody of it's aspirations. Anyone who tries to fight this corruption and greed will have their unalienable rights trampled.

    How long will the average American citizen tolerate this bastardisation of ideals that the rest of the world looked up to and once America sinks into despotism (as Benjiman Franklin said of the constitution) which world power will take it's place?

    I don't really like the alternatives.

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    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  12. Sir Humphrey by Frankie70 · · Score: 2

    "The Official Secrets Act is not to protect secrets, it is to protect officials." - Sir Humphrey.

  13. I disagree too. by Stickerboy · · Score: 2

    It doesn't need to proven that Manning personally handed a copy of the release to an al Qaeda agent to make him guilty. This charge should absolutely stick. Let's say John Doe is a disgruntled Armed Forces intel agent working in Afghanistan. He's sick of his job, and takes a huge stack of classified targeting mission profiles and drone photos and scatters them in the air in Kabul's marketplace out of protest. Agents of the Taliban or al Qaeda collect the papers and peruse it. Regardless of the timeliness or utility of the info, he's (unwittingly and stupidly) gone against explicit orders and policy and aided and abetted the enemy efforts. Trying to draw a ridiculous line of causality for "proof" between release and someone getting killed is not needed at that point.

    Quit idolizing Manning. Just because Manning exposed some of the seedy underpinnings of international diplomacy doesn't make him a hero. No, there were no explicit war crimes that weren't already being exposed by the MSM (Abu Ghraib being the best example). I've read through the wiki leaks releases, and there is little to nothing within them that couldn't be found in the MSM or inferred through a basic knowledge of international affairs. He's a Kevin Mitnick of this decade.

    --
    Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
  14. Whack the most visible moles by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

    The NSA has a finite budget, a finite number of people, finite capability, finite everything.

    That's why they and the rest of the security organs take great pains to prosecute / persecute the most well-known 'criminals' like Aaron Swartz beyond any semblance of justice in high-profile show trials, in order to keep the 'rabble' compliant.

    What a free country we have.