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Foxconn Signs Massive Android Patent Agreement With Microsoft
Pikoro writes with news that Foxconn's parent company has entered into an agreement to pay Microsoft royalties for every Android device they manufacture, joining a rather long list of companies licensing patents for Android/Linux from Microsoft. From the BBC: "Microsoft has secured a patent deal with the world's biggest consumer electronics manufacturer to receive fees for devices powered by Google's Android and Chrome operating systems. Hon Hai — the parent company of Foxconn — said the deal would help prevent its clients being caught up in an ongoing intellectual property dispute. Microsoft says that Google's code makes use of innovations it owns. Google alleges its rival's claims are based on 'bogus patents.' 'The patents at issue cover a range of functionality embodied in Android devices that are essential to the user experience, including: natural ways of interacting with devices by tabbing through various screens to find the information they need; surfing the web more quickly, and interacting with documents and e-books.'"
Beware all stories with "Massive" in the headline.
Also, how can you tell it is "massive". It looks like all details are confidential. It is unclear which patents are involved, what FoxCon gets in return, how much money is exchanging hands, what is really "covered" by the agreement, etc. It might as well be a "tiny: deal, just focussed on "massive" publicity: "We don't really have anything but with patents you can always do some handwaving, so lets put out a press release how good friends we are, generate some publicity to show Microsoft is still relevant and what a friendly company Foxcon is. As long as they spell our names right any publicity is good publicity. Deal?".
Evil should not make you wish to hurt....yourself.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Before everyone gets in a twist. Remember MS was in the phone market for 9-10 years before iPhone/Android... They may have some patents here. They did extensive work in this field. Also remember patents expire eventually. I remember people walking around proudly with their ipaq's and chicklet wince phones and spouting how the dreamcast runs wince.
Let me put it to you this way. When MS and the OEMs first came out with the WinCE phone people were excited (windows in my pocket). The actual result was awful. However MS was up to basically the 7 or 8th version of wince before iPhone came out (and apple blew them away).
MS put a ton of work into this. Sure it is MS (or M$ as a lot of people like to say). But in this case I think they may deserve a bit of recompense. There will probably be a few of you out there that disagree with me and call me a troll. But I saw the amount of work they put into it. It was blindingly obvious that they worked really hard on it. It just rather bad at what it was supposed to do.
If you agree with Microsoft's position, and believe that they're owed licensing fees, fine: just be aware that the cost of the licensing fees is being passed on to the consumer.
If you don't agree with Microsoft's position, one thing you can do is to not purchase from any company participating in such agreements. Even better: purchase from a company that isn't, and send a letter to a company that is, so they understand that they're cutting off their own air supply.
If you want to make something go away, make it unprofitable for the parties involved.
Koans and fables for the software engineer
I can see why they agreed to pay.
Foxcon legal department assessed the cost of litigation to fight against bogus patents potentially higher than just pay those damn mafioso.
Also the behavior of the US justice in Apple vs Samsung may have told them that the mafioso business of extortion through patents is somewhat tolerated in this country. Well not much different finally than doing business in China, but at least in China the extortion by the members of the army or the Central Committee is not hiding behind patent laws and China never pretended to be a free market.
http://www.transparency.org
Because they're not paying. Therefore they couldn't care less.
Challenge how? Think of it this way, I say that you should pay me to use your index finger while typing and you agree, would an onlooker do more than say you are being silly? You might think that they should invalidate the patent, but say I have a separate patent for every possible finger on every key on the keyboard, plus one for looking at each pixel on the screen - and each would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to challenge then you can see why they aim at the general anti-competitive behaviour and changing the system.
As fashionable as it is to hate Microsoft and gripe about how badly Windows 8 sucks, the fact IS that Windows Mobile WAS groundbreaking back in the early 00s. It might have been utterly dysfunctional out of the box as an operating system for making voice calls, but as the operating system for a pocket-sized laptop with wireless data capabilities, it picked up the ball where Palm dropped it and ran even harder. Had Microsoft left well enough alone, and reacted to Android by creating proper APIs for implementing alternative 'phone' and 'launcher/homescreen' thirdparty apps (instead of delegating the task to HTC and calling it a day, then later throwing the baby out with the bathwater so it could port Danger's OS from Java to C# and rebrand it as "Windows Phone"), WinMo8, 9, or 10 would have been a strong alternative to Android today instead of the crippled, unloved, locked-down joke we have now that's turned into a cancer destroying desktop Windows as well.
Lots of the things we take for granted in Android were "there" and worked fine in Windows Mobile 5/6, too... and more importantly (for patent purposes), did NOT work well AT ALL in PalmOS (if they worked at all), and barely worked in Android & IOS until 2010 and beyond. The biggest single problem high-end WinMo phones had was hardware -- US Carriers weren't in any hurry to push the envelope, and HTC was perfectly content to give them the minimum they asked for. And HTC made the ill-conceived decision to eliminate the 'windows' and 'ok' hardkeys in an effort to be more iPhone-like, without stopping to consider the fact that all of Microsoft's usability testing up to that point TOOK FOR GRANTED that the device would have two physical buttons that required at least a little bit of physical force to trigger (hence, the in-pocket touchscreen activations that caused endless misery if you got a text message or phone call that went straight to voicemail).
Anyway, the point is that once in a great while, Microsoft *does* manage to do something right, even if it completely drops the ball in other related areas. WinMo had plenty of warts, but circa 2005/2006, it WAS pretty much the best thing you could get if you wanted wireless internet connectivity in a device that could (sort of) limp along and make voice calls in a pinch. And it sure as HELL beat walking around with a Palm Vc or Handspring Visor and $129 18" cable to plug it into your clamshell phone for data a few years earlier, or limping with a later PalmOS phone that was good for making voice calls and managing an address book, but fell flat on its face the moment you tried doing anything that involved realtime network communication with a responsive UI (the UI froze whenever the phone was sending or receiving data due to the way PalmOS Garnet's network stack was stapled onto it as an afterthought).
Also, I believe a big chunk of Microsoft's patent portfolio came from its acquisition of Danger (the Sidekick's maker), which had plenty of its own innovations.
Bogus deal, Foxconn only makes the hardware not the device. It's a contract manufacturer. This will cover only devices Hon Hai make for itself which presumably why the strange wording of the press release, talking about HonHai while implying it covers Foxconn's contract manufacturing.
"While the contents of the agreement are confidential, the parties indicate that Microsoft will receive royalties from Hon Hai under the agreement."
Hon hai is not Foxconn, as I said Foxconn is a contract manufacturer, it competes with everyone else to manufacture devices. If they tried to add a fee, they'd simply price themselves out of the market, Hon Hai on the other hand does make a few devices, and this cover those.
Hon Hai also are fools to pay the Danegeld because Microsoft has a lot of these fluff troll patents and has donated many to 'independent' third party trolls. Sooner or later the next troll will demand money, and the next and the next.
So how much more money is Microsoft making off of Android than they are off of their own phones?
Doesn't the usual life cycle of a company typically end with it becoming an patent troll as it nears the end of its life? When Kodak, Polaroid, Xerox and other companies were struggling to stay alive during massive changes in the market, they managed to extend the life of their company by a few years by by gong on a patent licensing crusade. The real tell for Microsoft will be if its patent licensing ever becomes the majority revenue maker in the company. That's generally the true sign that the end is near.
It's certainly not a good sign for the future of Microsoft's mobile business if they are making more money off of a competitor's product than their own.
Microsoft loses nothing because they are collecting for these patents. Likely they are trying to collect enough that even if they lose them in court, their court costs are covered by the patent fees. Meanwhile they have effectively sown a cloud of trouble over Android even though they (microsoft) don't even have anything competitive in this market.
Tl;dr -- it galls me, the chutzpah of these assholes!
This is Microsoft's new business model: World's Largest Patent Troll.
See, even if they lose in the future of technology, they can leech off those who innovate.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
More likely I say you should pay me for the use of the index finger. You agree, all too readily, you will pay me for that middle finger usage.
Shortly afterwards we announce an unrelated joint deal to promote something, which involves large amounts of money from me to you. You pay me my (undisclosed) but likely tony token fee, and we do our joint promotion. So for Samsung this was a subsidy on the Windows Phone from Microsoft.
Outside viewers smell a rat, but the companies concerned are under NDA and nothing short of an anti-trust cartel investigation will open that can of worms. Reminds me of Intel and its "you pay a fortune for our chips and we'll pay you promotion fees back, but only if you don't also use AMD chips". It tooks years before the anti-trust lot tackled that game.
In effect Microsoft has bought an anti-competition agreement hidden behind a patent license. But how can you prove it, when they don't even list the patents supposedly being licensed?
Can I have your iPad when you're gone?
So to paraphrase your post. Basically they tweaked PalmOS.
If their patents had any value, you wouldn't have to cover them with an NDA before listing them. If their patent list can't stand scrutiny then the patents themselves can't have value that stands up to scrutiny.
Normally when Slashdot discusses patents there's a number, the magic patent number, the thing that's remarkably missing with Microsoft. The last one they made the mistake of being open with, was long filenames in a filetable, later invalidated because Amiga had it sooner.
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/03/ms-patent/
Microsoft loses nothing because they are collecting for these patents.
Not only that! They could potentially be collecting twice for the same device. Say HTC/Motorola/Samsung gets Foxonn to manufacture the phone, both companies potentially get to pay Microsoft.
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
I don't think the publicity aims to show that Microsoft is relevant or that Foxcon is friendly company. It aims to show Android OEMs that they must pay when Microsoft visits them.
I'm voting with my wallet. I'm definitely not going to be buying an iPhone made by Foxxcon. Who's with me?
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
"The patents at issue cover... surfing the web more quickly"
Brilliant, if you're not the fastest just patent the idea of being fast and sue everyone.
As fashionable as it is to hate Microsoft and gripe about how badly Windows 8 sucks
People aren't emotional over Microsoft they just recognise that Microsoft is not a good company, and Windows 8 is single handedly killing off Desktop industry (4 Aticles!? on here in one week). They are simply buying there products from companies that deliver.
Things have changed since then.
Companies can have products AND be patent trolls.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
When I was young we did not call crap like windows 8 actual products.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
This is brilliant. Company that mainly makes Apple products will license "Android patents" from Microsoft. ... except it doesnt make any, it makes Apple devices.
Lets rephrase that. Microsoft hates Android, Apple hates Android, Apple tells its biggest client "go fetch". Foxconn does what its being told and promises to pay for something that doesnt exist and doesnt belong to a person it is giving money to. Whats more it will pay for every Android device it makes
Its an equivalent of Nokia licensing imaginary Android patents from Microsoft ... oh wait, Nokia DID license those too haha. Whats next? Dell licensing those patents? HP? Maybe Lexmark or Adobe? or Procter & Gamble?
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
Things must be worse at Microsoft than I thought. Trying to regain relevancy via the courtroom sounds desperate. That's just what Atari was doing right before they faded into the sunset.
Proverbs 21:19
Ultimately, a troll is someone extracting money for something they don't really own. Whether or not such a person is a "non practicing entity" is really a red herring. It distracts from the really important question.
Should there even be a "property interest" in that thing to begin with?
If not, then they are a troll.
It's not the toll that makes the troll.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I'd like to be an extortionist too. Where do I sign on?
It's a Google product so Google should fight it. And yes, Gooogle has enough money for every pixel on the screen.
Makes me wonder if Google doubts their ability to overturn the patents.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Except this is just what happened in real life in a deal between IBM and SUN back in the 1980's
http://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/044.html
here how it ended "An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themselves. They just sat there, stonelike. Finally, the chief suit responded. "OK," he said, "maybe you don't infringe these seven patents. But we have 10,000 U.S. patents. Do you really want us to go back to Armonk [IBM headquarters in New York] and find seven patents you do infringe? Or do you want to make this easy and just pay us $20 million?" "
Interesting, but with some searching, Foxconn does actually make android/chrome devices:
Google Glass project said to be made by Foxconn in California
FoxConn Making An Amazon Phone For 2013
Acer Android phones...made by FoxConn
Granted, it seems to be a small percentage of what they do for Apple, it isn't exactly..."they don't make any"
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
...there is at least one primary manufacturer who won't play ball with Microsoft. From the article:
Koans and fables for the software engineer
I don't think you understand who Foxconn are. They do the actual manufacturing work for almost everyone in the tech business, from Apple and Motorola to Nintendo and Sony; the aforementioned "clients" they want to shield. In terms of who it affects, it's huge.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
It's a product in the same way that manure is a product - you can buy it, but it's gonna stink and make you sick to your stomach.
I am officially gone from
Foxconn isn't just an "Apple OEM", they make portable electronic devices for nearly everybody, including - yes - Android devices.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Given that no one wants Windows 8 infecting their electronic devices, Microsoft is left with becoming a bully patent troll.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
When I was young we did not call companies with actual products patent trolls.
Things have changed since then.
Companies can have products AND be patent trolls.
Some people on here must be very old. Thomas Edison knew the value of a patent, which was why he was busy patenting things Tesla invented.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It irritates me that Microsoft, having consistently failed to innovate a phone that anybody wanted to use, is now able to extract money out of other people's efforts. Its an innovation tax. Don't bother innovating, as failed innovators will help themselves to the profits of your innovation.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
This is Microsoft's new business model: World's Largest Patent Troll.
Which they most likely "stole" from Apple.
"But this one goes to 11!"
whoosh?
Foxcon legal department assessed the cost of litigation to fight against bogus patents potentially higher than just pay those damn mafioso.
That or they agreed to pay for patents in exchange for discounts elsewhere, making the patents appear to be more legit (or at least more widely accepted) but not really adding any cost.
Microsoft is well on its way to becoming SCO.
Considering there's a requirement for the infringed to disclose to the infringer (in this case, the Linux community as a whole...), they're basically guilty of racketeering, extorting agreements and settlements out of the commercial players.
That's NOT how it's supposed to work, folks.
That's now how it's supposed to work, but if we take anything from RAMBUS vs SDRAM manufacturers or SCO vs Linux distributors, just because they are wrong, doesn't mean they can't cover up evidence, shread documents or relentlessly sue people in the hopes of getting them to cave in and using the winnings to augment their warchest for suing more and larger targets. Microsoft already has a Bucket o' Lawyers and plenty of cash on hand so they're doing this. They've lost the innovative edge, if they even had it, because most everything they roll out as a product or service is something someone already had.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I was of the impression that ideas can not be patented and only actual innovations can be. So let us assume the idea was Microsoft's, do they collect for an idea or the implementation of the idea? what if some one uses a different process from them, can they still collect? Tab browsing is a Microsoft invention? I think I have too many questions and I doubt if any one here can really answer them so I'll more stop at this point. No maybe one thing, Is SUSE(which is owned by Microsoft) released under the GPL? and if it is, doesn't it mean that innovations can be cannibalized from SUSE based on the GPL? This action by Microsoft goes beyond this one act. It it the patent industry gone mad an in the process driving up prices for the consumer. Too many patents sit on paper preventing innovations and charging an arm and a leg when someone independently comes up with an idea that is close to the one that's on paper. these acts are leading to the slow death of imagination, free thinking and innovation. Personally, I think that patents should have a life expectancy and can only be renewed if the patent holder is actively developing and or using the patent as part of a legitimate commercial activity. in Microsoft's own case all windows OS up to Win XP would just about be fair game, or force them to keep the OSes relevant. (What a task that would be, imagine Microsoft running around trying to preventing MS clones)
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/candregis.shtml
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Yes but manure has a consistency and purity all its own. Actually, if you grow up in farm country, manure smells a lot better than a city.
If you want to do business in this neighborhood, a certain payment is required for protection. Protection from whom? Me.
Foxconn isn't just an "Apple OEM", they make portable electronic devices for nearly everybody, including - yes - Android devices.
Foxconn isn't an Apple OEM at all. They would be an Apple OEM if you could buy Foxconn labeled computers or phones or tablets that are identical to or very similar to Apple products. Foxconn is a manufacturer building products _for Apple_ (among many others), that's the complete opposite of an OEM.
Lexmark along with Kyocera, buffalo, a-data, and others already paid Microsoft for NON-ANDROID Linux related patents. If people think this is about Android think again. Its about Linux and Android is just one implementation. many non-android manufactures have been caught in this extortion scheme just because they use Linux. Microsoft despicable scheme is against open source and they have said as much that they were going to use patents to kill Linux this is their plan at play.
Microsoft loses nothing because they are collecting for these patents. Likely they are trying to collect enough that even if they lose them in court, their court costs are covered by the patent fees. Meanwhile they have effectively sown a cloud of trouble over Android even though they (microsoft) don't even have anything competitive in this market.
Tl;dr -- it galls me, the chutzpah of these assholes!
That depends. Like with the agreements for all the rest, it doesn't mention how much is paid or to whom; and like the rest, only Microsoft put out a press release. For all we know, Microsoft could actually be paying money to HonHai, Foxconn's parent company, instead of the other way around.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
When I was young we did not call companies with actual products patent trolls.
If you try to extort money on things you had no hand in creation of, then you are a troll. Regardless of whether you sell other products.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
You get to fight for the unprofitable scraps Samsung leaves behind and have to go out of your way to try and stand out. Your users are probably tight wads and Microsoft is bound to bully you into giving them money. I think I'd rather start from scratch and develop my own OS.
You cast the result to a Boolean you imbecile!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Here is it, thanks to Barns & Nobles:
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/105113-microsofts-android-bullying-revealed-by-barnes-noble
More details
http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=2011111122291296
TLDR:
1) Background image loading
2) Operating system provided tabs.
3) Handles when selecting text.
4) Annotation of electronic documents. (annotating them without changing the original document)
5) Web browser loading status icons.
6) Simulating mouse inputs using non-mouse devices. (basically everything with a touchscreen infridges)
Actually they both pilfered from Xerox who left their doors open.
Between Win8 not catching any traction and declining PC sales, is MS destined to be the nothing more than a high profile patent troll? Are they already there?
Yeah PARC came up with some cool stuff, they just had no idea what to do with it. Apple and Microsoft marketing departments took care of that though.
"But this one goes to 11!"
Foxconn just got mugged.