Slashdot Mirror
Israel Airport Security Allowed To Read Tourists' Email
wiredmikey writes "Israeli security officials at Ben Gurion airport are legally allowed to demand access to tourists' email accounts and deny them entry if they refuse, the country's top legal official said on Wednesday. Details of the policy were laid out by Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein in a written response to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), the group said in a statement. 'In a response dated April 24, 2013, the attorney general's office confirmed this practice,' ACRI said, quoting sections of the document which said it was only done in exceptional cases where 'relevant suspicious signs' were evident and only done with the tourist's 'consent'. 'Allowing security agents to take such invasive measures at their own discretion and on the basis of such flimsy "consent" is not befitting of a democracy,' commented Lila Margalit from ACRI."
Israel has every right to require you show just cause why they should let you in. Just like the US has that same right.
You have no right to enter a country of which you are not a citizen, and they can deny you entry for any reason, and require whatever they want of you as a condition of entry.
That's just the way it is. Don't like it? Don't go to Israel.
I guess that might be a good reason to have a throw away email account. They want to read your email, well, sure officer, here you go. mydummyaccount@gmail.com and my password. Have fun with it.
This is why I do all my confidential corporate communication via Twitter and Slashdot postings.
... or, you could be a racist douche-bag. The possibilities are endless.
Citation needed. What other counties demand access to tourists' e-mail? And outrage against Israel's human rights crimes is not "anti-semitic" or "outrage against Jews". Anyone with a lick of sense is tired of Israel playing the victim card.
Damning with faint praise, there. And if you're Jewish, that's like a white person in 1965 talking about how safe he felt in Alabama, Bloody Sunday be damned.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
This is a stupid policy because anyone intent on doing harm will just set up a dummy account full of fluffy happy mail to show to airport security. Basically the only outcome of this policy is to deny entry to people who are not a threat.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Consent, eh? Really?
.
-- Consent, or get back on that airplane!
-- Consent, or get into that jail!
-- (DUI checkpoint, consensual, of course) : consent, or give up your driving privileges, and line up over there for your breathalyser test!
-- (Border patrol checkpoint, right outside San Onofre Nuke plant, on I-5 north bound and southbound, about 50 miles NORTH of the California-BajaCalifornia USA-Mexico) border -- consent or step out of the car please
-- (Watertown MA, search for a terrorist, where did I misplace those 4th amendment rights, weren't they here just yesterday?) -- we're coming into your house NOW, consent or we're pulling you out anyway and we've got automatic weapons, so consent NOW!
-- (DUI checkpoint) -- roll down your windows and answer these questions, with your CONSENT! Hey, don't make a u-turn, we'll chase you DOWN for not CONSENTING to this intrusive non-probable-cause DUI checkpoint!!!
I musta signed that consent during that EULA as I was coming out of the womb, yeah, that must have been when I consented to all of this crap...
Israel does a pretty good job of generating anti-Israel sentiment on its own, really... at least among anybody who's actually seen the numbers for the death toll in their war in Gaza...
That doesn't mean anti-semitism or anti-jew sentiment (there is a difference between the two), but it does mean that the state of Israel isn't exactly a good neighbour....
I wonder if people realize that to enter US you need a Tourist Visa (except if you are from approx. 17 states that are exempt).
To obtain a Tourist Visa, you need to prove your "residential ties" to the country of origin, which include your bank account statements, your apartment lease, etc.
On top of that you are finger printed on entry.
And If you think US is bad then try entering Switzerland if you are not from EU, US and a few other countries.
I traveled through Ben Gurion airport in 2011 and I have to say, I found the security there a lot less invasive and arbitrary than security at US airports. They didn't make me take off my shoes or walk through a body scanner. And they didn't confiscate my bottle of water.
What they did do was actually spend time talking to me and watching me. I think the security there is really security, not security theatre.
As for demanding to read your email, that's probably crossing the line. I likely would have refused. But really, it's no worse than the US which can confiscate your laptop at the airport and go through all your files.
See The U.S. Government Wanted to Know: Am I Jewish"
"This is the conversation I recall having with Chris Kain at the US Embassy in Tel Aviv by telephone:"
CK: Hello. I got your number from ___. You are being questioned by the Israeli authorities, I understand.
ST: They are threatening to deny me entry and to deport me.
CK: Are you Jewish?
ST: No
CK: Have you been in contact with the Israeli government or military in the past?
ST: No
CK: Have you been here before?
ST: Yes, several times. I am a Palestinian with family in the West Bank.
CK: Oh, you have family in the West Bank. Then there is nothing I can do to help you. In fact, if I interceded on your behalf, it will hurt your case with the Israelis.
ST: I don't understand. You are saying you can't speak with them. You have no influence. They are demanding to access my gmail account.
CK: If they have your gmail address, they can get in without your password.
ST: What do you mean? How?
CK: They're good!
ST: This is crazy. You mean you know about these requests to access emails and you have no problem with it.
CK: It is in our travel warning. They won't harm you. You will be sent home on the next flight out.I hope I have been of good service to you.
ST: Frankly, you have done nothing for me.
CK: Well at least you can say I did it kindly.
...credentials to my Mailinator account :P
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
I use Thunderbird to POP my mail down to my local desktop at home. The server copy is *not* retained. Furthermore, I don't even know my ISP mail and Gmail passwords off hand - they're stored in my local mail client, which, as I mentioned, is a desktop at home.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Unfortunately, bigots like you have done everything they can to allow Muslims into Israel so they can commit terrorist attacks against innocent civilians.
You tell him! I got a problem with people like him too!
There are two kinds of people I hate in this World:
People who are intolerant of other people's culture and the Dutch.
Article has Anti-Semitic Purpose. Well, yea, and it is also completely true. Perhaps the truth is Anti-Semitic. Shame on you for pointing that out.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Huh. I thought we bombed enough nazi's into the stone age. I guess next on the agenda is more bombing of nazi's, who would have guessed? Always hard to deal with single issue political parties....
I'm Jewish but I'm still trying to process your response... maybe Slashdot can help me.
Unfortunately, bigots like you...
The parent did a good job differentiating condemnation of Jews and the state of Israel's actions. There is a massive difference between the two. Even then, let's say that there wasn't a difference. In the United States, we value the freedom of speech which includes the freedom to offend. We critique and criticize Christians and Muslims all the time. Is any of that Christianphobia and Islamophobia? Sure. Is it all Christianphobia and Islamophobia? No. We also criticize our own government. Does that make us America Haters? No. Criticism and critiques come with nuance. Jumping to the extreme shows a fragile nature.
...have done everything they can to allow Muslims into Israel...
Last I checked, plenty of Muslims have lived in that area. The expulsion of non-Jews from Israel either through constant terrorism or other forms of force is well documented. Denying Palestinians (Muslims and Christians alike) the right to return to their homes is a policy that hawks and right-wing fanatics in Israel's government (and Slashdot commentators) gets them slobbering at the mouth in glee. It doesn't make it right. Your comment is starting to become offensive at this point.
...so [Muslims] can commit terrorist attacks against innocent civilians.
Do you believe Muslims alone commit terrorist attacks against innocent civilians? Or do you believe that all Muslims commit terrorist attacks against innocent civilians? The reality is Israelis, and by extension Jews, commit plenty of terrorist attacks against Palestinians and Muslims. The fact that it is sanctioned by the government by people in soldiers doesn't make it just. Also, the fact that settlers commit terrorist attacks against Palestinians and Muslims while kicking them out of their land doesn't make it just. Your comment has crossed the line to offensive at this point.
And as for the moronic comparison to 1965 Alabama, no. There is no comparison there. Give it up.
The parallels are appropriate. Right-wing/militant Israelis and their sympathizers would love nothing more than to claim offense at the comparisons to the pre-civil rights era of the United States and Apartheid South Africa but there is no better description. Don't shut down honest discussion on this topic but using accusations of "antisemitism" or "bigotry."
This will be coming to America soon.
What do you mean "SOON"?
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2011/may/18/no-warrant-needed-search-laptops-phones-border-cro/
The 9Th Circuit ruled this unconstitutional, but for now that only applies to the 9th. Other circuits may make other rulings.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
They routinely take your laptops and make the backup and give it back to you. Please don't go to Israel with your laptops or any data that you want to protect. Sanitize your email accounts (esp with respect to commercial information where you are bidding against an Israeli company) and then visit the place. The people and the country are a complete delight in surprising contrast to the airport experience. Please take an informed decision.
It's nothing new. I wrote about this a year ago, when the same issues came up http://falkvinge.net/2012/06/29/your-email-privacy-is-under-increasing-threat/
Whine all you want, but more than happy to help these guys. They have:
* A legitimate reason for increased security. They're under far more serious security threats (and frequency) than the US and Europe.
* A better security record (% of attacks foiled) using far less money
* Real security at airports and malls, unlike the security theater going on elsewhere in the world.
Trust me, if they ever get to the point of asking for your email they have flagged multiple levels of suspicious behavior. I have been traveling there for years and their security is *far* less intrusive than the US and Europe. Personally I wish them all the best. They're the only country in the entire world that is actually winning against Islamic terrorism. That's most than most countries can say.
the u.s. is home to about as many jewish people as israel itself.. so here, anyway, things in israel *are* news.
Citation needed. What other counties demand access to tourists' e-mail?
North Korea?
You seem to be one of those guys that equates a criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. You're the only one trying to make this about a religion.
"Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
I "read" ebooks now at 600 to 800 words per minute by listening to text-to-speech wav files sped up by 3-4X. If you're stuck reading at average or below speed, I can forgive you for being somewhat ignorant of history. I was until I started speed listening. By "we", I assume you mean the USA. Britain bombed the heck out of Germany, far more than we did, and the Russians may have even outdone England. While the bombing was terrible, it was primarily communist Russia that defeated Germany. They both inflicted and took more casualties than the rest of us fighting Germany combined by something like a factor of 3X. That in part is why Russia was in military possession of so many countries at the end of the war, and why they felt they couldn't just go home after fighting so hard for every mile. The even greater casualties on the Russian side relative to Germany helps explain the rape an pillage by the communists as they rampaged through Europe, though Stalin encouraged it, and sh-t flows downhill. Are you confusing Nazi Germany with Japan? It's probably fair to say we bombed Japan into the stone age, partly with nuclear bombs, though our napalming of Japanese cities made of wood probably did far more damage. Now, this was all under a Democratic dominated government in the USA. Are they the single-issue party you are referring to?
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
I have only traveled to Israel once. My passage in and out was very quick and easy. I spent less time in customs and security than I usually do flying into America. This may be because my company has a branch in Israel, and I think some pre-arrival and departure documentation was provided.
However, already 5 years ago when I traveled there, it was well documented that security screeners would ask questions like:
What do you do for a living? Why did you come to Israel? What did you do while you were here? etc.
For example, if you said that you were a writer working on a book about early Christianity, they would ask you to fire up your laptop and show them some of your writing, notes, and pictures. They would take your laptop and read some of the documents. If your story and the documentation didn't match, you could expect a lot more questions.
The fact that they have extended this to email does not surprise me much.
One only needs to stand in another's shoes for perspective. Imagine the uproar if for instance, Italian border security demanded to know your religion and then demanded access to your private information if you weren't a Catholic.
Time to register iloveisrael@gmail.com....
Then it would be too much.
"We demand to see your email account."
An email account isn't like a passport or other official document. It can be created, or deleted, on a whim. What kind of "security" do they think this will bring?
I will be more than happy to show them any of the number of fake e-mail accounts that I maintain for spam. How exactly are they going to be able to tell that they aren't legitimate? Oh, they aren't. They want to go through my email, they will have to spend all afternoon picking through idiotic threads of forwarded cute cat pictures....
Hey Israel, fuck you for being stupid.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Israel used to be mostly ignored by the US until 1970 when Israel help save the King of Jordan from being overthrown by Palestinian terrorists. The US concluded that the Israelis were trustworthy allies and an 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' in the region - which the US could use to further their interests (particularly against Soviet influence in the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East). The US needed Israel more than the other way around (since before this the Israelis mostly got arms from the French and Russians-via-Czechoslovakia).
The loss of Israel would be very bad for US self-interest - which is why the US does what it does. Conspiracy theory fruitcakes always start frothing that the Jews control the White House this is utterly false. The Jews and Israelis have influence in the US, but are among many influences. The White House today is instead heavily infiltrated by racist Jew-hating Muslim Brotherhood affiliates, refer: http://www.investigativeproject.org/3869/egyptian-magazine-muslim-brotherhood-infiltrates. I'm digressing here because of all the bullshit spun about that the White House is controlled by Jews - this is false, ever since George W Bush it is the jew-haters that have excessive influence in the State Department and White House.
Note that the jihadi Arabs like the *Egyptian* Yasser Arafat caused murder and instability in Israel, Gaza[then illegally occupied by Egypt], Judea/Samaria/West Bank [then illegally occupied by Jordan]), Jordan proper, Lebanon, and globally (Munich, Pan Am, Achilles Lauro murder etc). Israel is a bulwark against these guys and it suits the US to do the heavy lifting. The Israelis also tend to take out nuclear weapons programmes, like Iraq, Syria and soon-to-strike Iran when it would be more politically difficult for the US.
The US 'aid' programme to the Israelis also benefits the US more than the Israelis. US tax dollars are used to pay US companies for equipment the Israelis use (including regional supplies and munitions the US intend to call on, if ever in a pinch).
The relationship between Israel and the US works for both parties. It turns out that the US receives far far more benefit from this than most in the US realize (and certainly much more benefits than the anti-Israeli left-leaning media would have you believe). I hope that gives some explanation as to why Israel gets so much attention from the US after the 1970's (replying to the parent AC's true statement by way of explanation).
I have about a dozen email accounts.
Thanks to lobbying, even in the US, Israel's interests are often placed above that of Americans. For a recent example, see this.
False. Your recall of history is factually incorrect - which makes your assertion about the UK ridiculous.
The League of Nations in 1922 declared an intention to create the states of Palestine and Transjordan. Palestine was a Jewish region of the Ottoman Empire and 'Palestinians' meant Jewish dhimmis in the Palestine region. Arabs were simply 'Arabs'. Palestine was to get all the land west of the Jordan River and Transjordan the land to the East. Then the British decides to split the Palestine region into a Jewish part and an Arab part. The Jews living in the region had been living there continuously for 3000 years (although Jews were temporarily excluded from Jerusalem in 70 AD and in the 3rd Century, but remained in the surrounding areas). In the late 18th Century the 'zionist' movement got going and the Jews that were already in the region were joined by Jews from other parts of the World. These Jews bought swampy land near the coast that the Arabs didn't want. The Jews set to work clearing the swamps and started importing Arabs from other parts of the Arab world (most of whom arrived *after* the Jews, and in 1967 took the name 'Palestinians' for political reasons I'll explain later).
World War II came along and many Jews fled to Palestine if they could. The British kept many of them out (where they were murdered in millions by the National Socialists). Meanwhile the Mufti of Jerusalem, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni headed to Hitler and suggested the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem (reminding Hitler that if the Jews were exteminated no one would remember them, citing how the Armenians were mostly forgotten by the Turkish genocidal jihad against Armenians in 1915). The Mufti also proceeded to the Balkans to raise a pair of Bosnian and SS Divisions that killed tens of thousands of Yugoslavian Jews. The Mufti was not a nice man.
After World War II ended many surviving Jews were convinced that Europe would always be anti-Semitic and left for Palestine (which is true, we see a rise again today; one cannot be racist but it is perfectly acceptable in polite society, politics and academia these days to demonize all Israelis without considering individuals - if you are doing this you are in fact a racist; please stop being racist).
The Jews conducted terrorism against the British and the British decided to leave Palestine (it was also in an anti-colonial mindset and divesting itself of all colonies as well at that time, eg India etc). In 1948 the UN offered states for Jews and Arabs in Palestine. The Jews accepted and Israel was formed. The Arabs rejected the UN plan and attacked with the armies of many neighbouring Arab states as part of the Arab League (and driven by several things; the lust for land and conquest and the intention to commit genocide of Jews as commanded in the Qur'an and hadiths). The Arab Legion told the Arabs in Palestine to move out of the area so that the genocide would be easier. These Arabs are the refugees that no Arab host country wants to integrate. The Jews also had to flee Judea, Samaria in the face of the Arab League armies and were expelled from Arab countries (eg. Egypt). The Jewish refugees were accepted as full citizens by Israel. The Arabs who remained in Israel were accepted as full citizens, and were given Members of the Knesset (eg. similar to Congressmen/Senators in the Israeli political system). There are about 1 million Arab Israelis (who fight for Israel, because they see themselves as citizens of *their* country) and have 3 Members of Knesset. After a year of fighting the Israelis won and their State survived.
After 1948 the Jordanians annexed Judea and Samaria and renamed it "The West Bank" [of the Jordan] to deflect any Jewish historical claim on it. The Egyptians occupied Gaza. The Arabs in Gaza did not call themselves "Palestinian" (a term used for Jews before 1948) but instead called themselves "Egyptian". The Arabs in the West Bank did
In response to your claim of "terrorism" by the State of Israel you probably need to get clued up on the legalities. Here's a video for you to look at that covers the relevant International Law. It turns out that only by denying International Law can you claim that the State of Israel is terrorist. You can claim it is heavy handed etc, but you cannot claim it has no legal basis to do what it does (which would make it a "terrorist" state). In short, Israel is not a terrorist state, despite what its critics would like you to believe (and many do believe the falsehood, because they never ever check the historical facts from objective sources):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub2x5UvjUs4 [youtube.com] "The Legal Case for Israel" (46 minutes)
Since you are Jewish you might also want to learn about the history of Palestine. You would see that the Israelis have an extremely good case for their right to be there (of course, the whole notion of a people having to justify their right to be in a land they inhabited continuously for over 3000 years is pretty immoral, but we won't worry about that here). I've got some *factual* videos you may wish to look at in this post (which I'll link to rather than re-post):
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3682915&cid=43543411
Israel does have a right to do what it is doing as a UN Member State. That's why it cannot be touched on legal grounds (despite the rantings of the genocidal OIC-bloc in the UN).
Actually, Rachel Corrie put herself in harm's way where the bulldozer driver could not see her. She committed suicide by bulldozer, dude. Check the facts. That's why the driver was cleared, she idiotically placed herself in a position the driver simply could not see and therefore could not stop. Same would happen to the idiots that walk in front of buses in every city when they are jabbering on their cellphones.
Any competent attacker will just set up a fake account or use a separate one for anything that would be suspicious. The Israelis used to really understand effective security. Seems that time is over and security theater has not taken over.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
the only part i would disagree with is the "Palestine was a Jewish region of the Ottoman Empire and 'Palestinians' meant Jewish dhimmis in the Palestine region". The Jews in Palestine at the time were only about 16% of the population. The rest were arabs.
I was not saying the Jews were the majority, so I agree with you. What is important is that Jews had been living there continuously for 3000 years. Most people think that the *all* Jews were evicted by the Romans, but this is not true (the ban was Jerusalem only, AFAIK).
What I did meant is that the British controlling the region at the time generally used the words "Palestinian" and "Arab" to refer to Jews and Arabs respectively. Even more importantly the arabs of the region did not generally refer to themselves as "Palestinian" (since my understanding is that they saw themselves as part of the Arab nation greater than any nation) - this was a later invention by PLO leaders so they could claim Haifa and Tel Aviv etc in the eyes of the World and deligitimize Israel and legitimize their planned genocide/ethnic cleansing (as my citation from Al Rassooli indicates, in the words of PLO founders themselves). I hope that point wasn't missed.
Jewish is both. It is an ethnicity as well as a religion. And you are also wrong about "racist" in that the term "racist" means a person who demonstrates prejudice, whether from race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation. I'm not arguing that I agree with it, but that's how it's used by most people today.
Learn to love Alaska
https://vimeo.com/50531435
Oh, so terrorism was a good thing back then?
The *UN* offered Israel and the Palestinian Arabs nation status in 1948. The Israelis accepted, the Palestinians did not. Your assertion was that the UK did this. This is not true. The UK's involvement was from 1917 to 1948 and primarily in 1922 in the League of Nations providing an area in their Mandate for Jews in Palestine.
It's just that your post was inaccurate. No problem, I was just fixin' it for ya and adding detail lest people get the mistaken impression that Jews only arrived in the place after WWII and at the behest of the UK, when they'd been there all along (even if in small numbers in the Middle Ages) and formed a country based on the League of Nations, UK and most importantly, the United Nations all forming the legal basis for the State of Israel.
I didn't mean offense by correcting you, but your post did need correction to be historically accurate (and then I took the liberty to go into more detail about some of the aspects of the situation and history). Hopefully some people will learn some correct historical facts as a result, I'm sure you don't mind that :)
Oustanding!
Bill Whittle once made an interesting statement about land ownership, recognizing how complex it is the further you go back in history in *all* countries. He said, "There are only two unique claims to the land, the first inhabitants and the last inhabitants". I would add, the guys who are able to hold the land against all comers can be the owners, if you can't hold the land - or you depopulate yourself (crazy Russia and 'traditional' European populations) then it is probably going to be taken away from you. This sucks, but that is the nature of Nature. No point whining about it, as some do - just get on with improving your claim (and the lives of citizens).
This could give me a very good reason to stop deleting all the stuff I get on one of my dot-edu accounts.
If there's anything that can incapacitate a Mossad agent, it's reading a few years of mail-to-all from vice-chancellors of whatever.
If they insisted on accessing the address that's on my business cards, that might be almost as good, since my email at the dot-org that gives me business cards is full of nearly a decade worth of stuff about international policy on environment and development.
I don't think I'd give them the other dot-edu, the dot-gov, or my personal account.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
(of course, the whole notion of a people having to justify their right to be in a land they inhabited continuously for over 3000 years is pretty immoral, but we won't worry about that here).
That's what the Palestinians said ;-)
I use SMIME to encrypt my mails! Oh wait... I use a certificate from StartSSL. Should I trust them?
I wasn't passing moral judgement for or against the terrorism (although my private opinion is that this was bad). I mentioned it because I don't want to deny it happened and it was significant.
So terrorists have to create a free email account if they want to travel?
That will discourage them.
Because terrorists are way too dumb to sign up for more than one email account.
That's what the Palestinians said ;-)
I understand the point you are trying to make, but shall we examine the facts instead? The original inhabitants of the land at the turn of the 20th Century is about 5% of the current population. In the 19th Century and earlier the population hadn't changed for about 400 years. What does this mean? It means that there has been immigration and massive birth rate increases for both Jews and Arabs in Palestine. The Arabs have been in Palestine for about 1300 years and the Jews for about 3000 - but both in relatively small numbers in the last 500 years. The notion that the Jews displaced the Arabs in a sparsely inhabited country is not borne out by the known populations. What was scarce was arable land until the Jews set about draining the swamps. Meanwhile, many Arab farmers abandoned tracts of land due to the predations of the Bedouin. Please have a read of the following research from Harvard
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hireview/content.php?type=article&issue=spring01/&name=myth
What this means is that claiming that the Palestinian Arabs were displaced is a myth. What happened is that after hundreds of years of extremely low population growth the Palestinians started breeding and immigrating from other Arab countries. Meanwhile the many non-Arabs also immigrated and their birth rate also went up. They simply made more land area from swamp and filled the empty land (when I visited the area I couldn't believe what an empty and barren dump Samaria is - as they say, "the fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so small" [plus, there are the genocidal goals of the religious folks too - on both sides, but Government sponsored on the Arab side]). The Jews and Jewish Agencies also purchased land from willing sellers - as the article points out. That means the sentiment of your statement is not historically correct. Given the inflammatory nature of the subject it is better not to put false memes out there and try stick to the facts where they are known. Sound good?
No worries. Just one more tiny point, the land wasn't "UK". It was a Mandate granted by the League of Nations for the UK to administer (not own). I know I'm picking hairs here, but given the nature of the subject it pays to be a little pedantic with regards to the history.
What idiot would think that the Jews only got there after 1948?
Dude, you would be surprised. It is a common refrain of some Islamic supremacists that the Jews have no right to the land because they all came from Europe to displace Arabs at the end of WWII. That's why they mistakenly call for all Israelis to go back to Europe. Since even Western readers are also often confused I thought I'd better make the history explicit, and some folks might learn something. Much of the political problems are due to intentional or unintentional re-writing of history. I didn't mean to suggest you didn't know this. I just saw that some could misconstrue your original post as being that the Israelis only arrived at the end of WWII because the UK put them there - and displaced Arabs in some fit of colonialism. Since that meme is common, but not true, I thought I'd post just so no-one gets confused. I did not mean to raise your hackles.
Citation needed. What other counties demand access to tourists' e-mail?
United States of America can look inside your electronic devices at the border. This is not strictly equivalent, but I think the spirit is the same.
Israeli State did not exist during WWII. So it's impossible for it to remember the lessons from that war, isn't it ?
Why would they ?
Israeli security officials at Ben Gurion airport are legally allowed to demand access to tourists' email accounts and deny them entry if they refuse
What if I do not use email? Would I be allowed to enter Israel, or would I need to set up a fake account?
Israel does have a right to do what it is doing as a UN Member State. That's why it cannot be touched on legal grounds (despite the rantings of the genocidal OIC-bloc in the UN).
The "genocidal OIC-bloc" includes everyone on the UN Security Council except the United States. Those Brits and French must really be full of anti-Semites, right?
I am officially gone from
The british empire, happy to fight any man in the room as long as he's much shorter, starved, and they can sneak up behind him and hit him over the head with a baseball bat first.
What, you don't always look for every advantage over who you're fighting?
No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
Sure, and when they see the amazingly blank email account they're fre to take that as suspicious and not let you in.
If you have no friends or don't use email then don't look Arab while trying to enter Israel.
After a year of fighting the Israelis won and their State survived.
After 1948 the Jordanians annexed Judea and Samaria and renamed it "The West Bank" [of the Jordan] to deflect any Jewish historical claim on it. The Egyptians occupied Gaza. The Arabs in Gaza did not call themselves "Palestinian" (a term used for Jews before 1948) but instead called themselves "Egyptian". The Arabs in the West Bank did not call themselves Palestinian but called themselves "Jordanian". This is because Arabs mostly see themselves as part of one Arabic community so had no problem with the Jordanian annexation and Egyptian occupation (part of the Muslim "Ummah").
All this talk of Arab annexation or occupation, but you seem to be omitting that not only did the Israelis win and their state survive, but the land area of Israel roughly doubled. It's not entirely accurate to portray this as a defensive war when a great deal of the combat took place outside of UN Partition Plan Israel and resulted in massive territorial gains for Israel. This would be like the United States annexing both Iraq and Afghanistan yet referring to the conflict as a defensive one.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Thanks for posting this.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
A defensive war is defined by how it begins, not how it ends. If you look at a map of Israel before 1967, you'll see how indefensible its geography was. Since they knew they were going to be attacked, it would have put their citizens in peril to NOT make a strategic, preemptive attack.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Helen Thomas, former mascot of the left wing media, is one of those people who called for Jews to "go back to Poland or Germany"-- the implication, whether intentional or not-- is clear, and I applaud the organizations and people who decided to end their relationship with her.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I was talking about 1948, not 1967. Wrong war, but I'll bite anyway.
If, as you say, a defensive war is defined by how it begins, and the 1967 war began with Israel's surprise bombing run in Egypt, destroying the majority of the Egyptian air force while it was still grounded on the tarmac, then I'd argue it was indeed a defensive war. For Egypt.
And indeed, I'm not questioning the Israeli decision to carry out a strategic, preemptive attack against Egypt. It was the only rational option. But let's call a spade a spade; this was not a defensive war in any sense. I don't understand this desire to whitewash history. Israel made the right decision in moving first, and this should be evident to anyone with even a cursory understanding of what the area looked like at the time. This doesn't, however, mean that Israel was defending itself. Let's not twist language to fit our purposes, let's be honest here. Israel's intentions were good, but they did shoot first.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
It's a pity you had to spoil your informative, insightful and interesting post with this stupid sweeping generalisation (which, ironically, accuses of making a stupid, sweeping generalisation).
Thanks for your post anyway.
If you don't like their policy, you can just choose not to enter the country, no big deal - it's not as if you were you were arrested but the government refuses to Mirandize you...
I take it you're a neo-nazi Yank who's disappointed Hitler lost and has a large collection of swastika armbands?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
the term "racist" means a person who demonstrates prejudice, whether from race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation
No, that's just silly. There are other terms for people with irrational prejudices for reasons other than race (e.g. xenophobe, sexist). Anti-muslim sentiment is generally driven by racism, even if they're not identical, simply because most muslims have brown skin.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Oh, so terrorism was a good thing back then?
The terrorists won, so they became freedom fighers. That is how it always works. It's like the ANC in South Africa.
If Germany hadn't lost WW2, the French Resistance would have been remembered as a bunch of deluded terrorists.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
What is important is that Jews had been living there continuously for 3000 years.
As were many Palestinians though oddly, immediately after Israel was created, they barred any Palestinian from returning to their homes after they were expelled by the fledgling Israeli forces, even though they had land titles and deeds showing proof of ownership since before Israel existed.
The law Israel created to prevent the return of those who either left of their own accord or who were forced out either by the nascent Israeli military or settlers is unique in that it only applies to those people of non-jewish heritage (whatever that means). The law, and a series of other laws afterwards, prevents only Palestinians from returning to their homes and even more conveniently, sets a specific date for when this takes effect: the day after Israel's creation. In other words, if you weren't on your land the day after Israel was created, you cannot come back even if you have proof of ownership.
So, to sum up, Jews had been living in what is now Israel for roughly 3,000 years, the same as the Palestinians. After the creation of Israel, only those of jewish heritage are allowed to return, everyone else, tough luck.
Looks like the Israeli's learned a thing or two from Hitler (yup, I just godwinned this thread).
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Why not have a 2nd email account that you use for travel confirmations, bookings, etc. that you can share if needed while protecting your true email account?
i like how Israel uses a human approach to security, and doesn't just radiate us to death for security theater purposes like the TSA.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
... and if they did this because lots of non-Catholics were entering and killing people.
A policy "we'll check all the emails of people coming from Israel" would not be a reciprocal policy. A reciprocal policy would be "we'll check the emails of a few foreigners who we're really suspicious of and who we might otherwise not let in at all." The left would hate this because the US would then be doing profiling, but it would not exactly be the equivalent of the USSR.
Anyone living in the Americas that is NOT an Indian of some type would be wise to STFU about "My 300th great grandfather lived here to get out" and even most original American tribes had numerous wars stealing territory from each other. I think only Polynesians get to make the "first in and never left" claim ;)
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!" -- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979 Just sayin'
Israel does a pretty good job of generating anti-Israel sentiment on its own, really... at least among anybody who's actually seen the numbers for the death toll in their war in Gaza...
That doesn't mean anti-semitism or anti-jew sentiment (there is a difference between the two), but it does mean that the state of Israel isn't exactly a good neighbour....
How does one be a good neighbor to someone who declares that their sole purpose is to wipe you out and persists in shooting rockets at you? The toll in Gaza was high as it was on the Palestinian side for several reasons, not the least of which that they placed their munitions, rocket stores and batteries purposefully in densely civilian areas. Despite the overwhelming imbalance in firepower, the toll on the Palestinian side was as low as it was because the Israelis actually dropped leaflets and made tens of thousands of phone calls to warm Palestinians to move away from those stores and batteries. I encourage you to watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE-sDemDWWI , the testimony of a British Army colonel who was an observer for the UN who declared that the Israelis did more than any army in known times to safeguard civilians on the 'other' side. One penultimate fact - the typical ratio of civilian casualties to combatant casualties in wars is 10:1; that is ten civilians die for every combatant. In the Gaza combat, that ratio was 1:1; fair proof that the Israelis did all that they could to minimize civilian casualties. And the last - in the year before the war, there were >3000 rockets shot from Gaza into Israel. How would any other country react to 3,000 rockets sent across the border from a territory they have left in hopes of peace?
While Israel is a sovereign nation, it is also a signatory to a number of human rights conventions... They've voluntarily given themselves restrictions on what laws they can make and how they apply them.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights' Article 12 says:
"No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks."
http://www.hri.org/docs/UDHR48.html
Mod up.
So, to sum up, Jews had been living in what is now Israel for roughly 3,000 years, the same as the Palestinians.
False. The Arab invasion was 1300 years ago. The time scales are different. Now we may argue that the 'Palestinian' Arabs may deserve to return to Israel (ignoring the fact there are over 1 million Arabs already in Israel), but then we could also argue that a far larger number of Jews then deserve to return to Muslim majority countries without fear of persecution. Trying to re-litigate history is fraught with peril. If the Arabs have claims then the Jews/Israelis also have counter-claims (which are are rarely mentioned, and I did not see that in your post). I hope you watched the links I posted for the legal status of the situation :)
I live in New Zealand. There is a claim that the Maori here (of which I have ancestry) displaced an earlier wave of migration, the Moriori. Fortunately the Maori polynesians pretty much wiped out the pacifist Morioris and the last full-blooded Moriori died out nearly a century ago. Even the polynesians can't claim to be immune to the territory grabs and conquest that every other country is afflicted by.
Oh, and let the lesson of pacificism in the case of genocidal invaders be a lesson to you all - we can;t appeas Islam or our 21st Century Culture will be supplanted destroyed by a 7th Century Culture.
You are correct. That was the mindset of "Eretz Israel" at the time. However, the Israeli Government has changed policies - which is why it gave Gaza back (hoping for peace, but instead they got more rockets - perfectly predictable if you understand that Islam is a large factor in driving the Arab political decision making).
Now there are still factions of Israeli society that still believe in this concept. The Israeli Government does try and reign them in. You can compare that to the Palestinians where the terrorists *are* the Government. Anyway, I agree with your point, but please understand it is of historical interest and is not the stated policy of the Israeli Government for the last decade (times change! but unfortunately many people's understanding of the situation is colored from decades ago, rather than the policies today).
ps. If the Israelis really were interested in driving all the Palestinians out for real, just how many days do you think their mighty IDF would take to accomplish this? not long, yeah? it should be clear when you think about it that the Israelis believe what they say, they are prepared for a Two State Solution provided there is permanent peace and mutual recognition (although I have the sneaking suspicion that the Israelis also know the Arab terrorist government could never agree to this - the Qur'an won't let them; but that is not Israel's fault, they're just making use of the ideology of their opponent).
Thanks for that criticism. It's noted. I wanted to put it in there because many people in the West go past legitimate criticism of Israel into racism. Once you start thinking about it you'll see how people who don't think they are being racist actually are. They go past the facts and judge people based on their ethnicity/nationality. I think we can agree that racism against anyone is bad yes? (primarily because your race is not something you have the power to change, unlike say, a political affiliation where you can change from Nazi to anti-Nazi or Islamist to secularist etc). I hope that softens your judgement on that statement a little? Thanks for the feedback :)
He doesn't have to insult every conceivable religion in existence in order to not be a hypocrite, and it seems silly to say otherwise.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Terrorism is always a good thing when they win and actually take over - depending on what historical accounts say.... Hell the US wouldn't be a country had it not been for "terrorist" acts such as the Boston Tea Party. The biggest issue of whether it's considered terrorism is which side you support and how many innocent lives are lost in the process - the latter appearing to be more of a modern thing. One man's terrorist is another man's patriot depending on how history wants to write it. Perspective always matters. If you lose somebody you know to "terrorism" you might not think it's such a good thing. But if you think it's only "bad guys" getting killed you might agree with it.
I think the best definition for how it gets interpreted is "situational ethics"
The best defense is a good offense.......
No probs, go ahead... And despite looking legit don't answer to the mail from the widow of the former president of Nigeria.
-- 29A the number of the Beast
Brown skin isn't a race. Xenophobe is a term for someone "afraid" of them, not prejudiced against them. And, since most prejudiced bigots are ignorant of race, they are racist based on continent of "origin" with "origin" being some untrue idealized historical image of those locations. Xenophobe is the proper breadth, but wrong meaning, and strictly speaking, many haters would hate 10th generation Americans who still speak their "original" language in the home, if it's not English. So they aren't "alien" and are more American than the hater, but they are brown. So what, are we back to using the term SM-Anglophile (straight-male-Anglophile)?
Learn to love Alaska
I note you're not counting the number of people impacted by the trade embargoes that Israel has imposed on the strip...
There's more to the death toll than the simple number of people actually killed by Israeli bullets/rockets. And since you're good at pulling up statistics... how many Israelis died versus how many Palestinians? Since 1987, just over 1500 Israelis, of whom 142 were under the age of 18. Since 1987, a little under 8000 Palestinians, of whom 1620 were minors. In 2008-2009 alone, the Israelis killed more Palestinians than Israelis have died in the entire 25-year period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.932011
That means that Israel has killed more Palestinian children than Hamas has killed Israelis, total. And that's just by guns, not by the economic impact that Israel is having on the region with their embargoes and blockades. I don't care how much out of their way they're going to minimize civilian contracts, they still fail at the balanced response.
The circumstance of the Liberty incident remain far from clear. In any case, it was a single incident during wartime many years ago. As for espionage, there have not been any documented cases of Israeli espionage against the United States. All of the small number of cases involve Israel obtaining US intelligence on third parties. It simply isn't true that Israel has acted against US security interests.
No, anti-Muslim sentiment is generally not directed at people per se but at the ideology of Islam. For the most part, it consists of resistance to Islamic hegemonism, religious intolerance, terrorism and forced conversion, the oppression of women, shari'a law, an so forth. This is clear from the reasons that people give for disliking Islam and is confirmed by the poor correlation between criticism of Islam an actual racism and xenophobia. Among the groups with the strongest anti-Islamic sentiment are Middle Eastern Jews and Christians, who are just as "brown" as Muslims, and in some cases out and out "black". They don't care about Muslim's race - they are hostile to Islam because of their direct and prolonged experience of oppression.
So the Brits forced Hitler to attack Russia?
Hitler never was interested in a "peaceful coexistence" with Stalin. All he was interested in was that Stalin thought he'd be safe from Hitler until Hitler actually attacked.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
The difference is that the Palestinians, by their own statement and actions, are both trying to kill Israelis and their children and are purposefully putting their own children in harms way by putting rocket emplacements in the midst of civilian establishments while the Israelis are trying to avoid harming that same population. If the embargo has had such an impact on day to day life, how do all the rockets and explosives get in? Why not substitute the other items you seem to think are missing for some of those rockets? You might also spell out the proper 'balanced response' there is to a neighbor that, at every opportunity, sends rockets and actually attempts to kill you? If Hamas wanted all this to stop, perhaps they could change their charter where it calls for a Palestine that extends to the sea and stop their speeches about the eradication of Israel and publicly proclaim that they accept that Israel is a Jewish State and they recognize its existence and declare peace. Perhaps your 'balanced response' should also take Hamas to task for perpetuating the conflict and shedding the blood of their own children.
I think i knew most of that, but interesting none the less.
&Problem is the Romans sacked the temple so there's nothing to point to and say "look the second iteration of our temple stood here almost a millennium before your prophet existed." And with the Muslims and Christians going back and forth over the land for another millennium, and many more people added who call it home, it's easy to forget the people who originally, still do call it home.
One thing you can say about the Egyptians and their pyramids, despite no one practicing their religion (in numbers): despite Cairo being 9:1 Muslim:Coptic Christian, no one will ever forget the people who built them. As long as humans exist on this earth anyway.
Thanks. I'm glad some readers didn't mind the recap (there was a lot going on, and it affects the claims of legitimacy today).
You do realize that Hamas and the Palestinians are two separate entities right? The only reason that Hamas has any support in the region at all is because they're the only ones providing supplies and keeping the schools open due to the Israeli blockade. Almost everything they have is smuggled in by Hamas. All anybody wants in the area is to be allowed to live in peace, and Israel is, by far, the single biggest impediment to that.
If Israel were to, you know, allow medical supplies and construction supplies into the area, stop bulldozing Palestinian neighbourhoods to build Israeli ones, and allow them to conduct trade as a legitimate entity, then they would find that support for Hamas would evapourate. The land is very fertile farmland, and they could easily keep their own economy going without Hamas if it weren't for Israel's interference: they can't import the supplies and equipment they need to do it, and even if they could, they can't export the finished product. Israel has created Hamas, and they're the only ones who bear responsibility for its continued power.
Crap, do you actually know nothing about this situation and yet you still have an opinion?
Do some reading about the issues and then try to figure out these answers:
If Gaza needs goods desperately, why does the Gazan Government spend effort to import all the rockets and arms? ........ just as there are many Muslim countries?
In the face of these problems, why does Hamas still pledge to eliminate the Zionist State?
Why is there a embargo? - and a wall separating Israel from the West Bank?
Why does Hamas still support the rocketing of Israel - and brag about it?
Why doesn't Hamas just recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State?
How many Palestinians live in Israel?
How many Palestinians are in college in Israel?
How many Palestinians are in the Knesset?
Why were all of the Jews kicked out of the Arab countries? Can't those governments distinguish between Jews and the Zionist government?
How many opposition newspapers, parties and organizations are there in Israel?
How many opposition newspapers, parties and organizations are there in Gaza or the West Bank?
Why does Hamas and the Palestinian Authority state that Jews can never live in a Palestinian State?
Why is the West Bank flourishing and Gaza struggling?
Here is some reading for you.
From Wikipedia (with many refs) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Israel
"A significant number of residents of the Palestinian territories seek medical treatment in Israel, often for sophisticated tests or treatments not available at Palestinian hospitals. Their treatment is paid for under a financial arrangement with the Palestinian Authority, or in some cases, at their own expense. Medical treatment for Gaza Strip residents is paid for by the Palestinian Authority or organizations such as the Peres Center for Peace.[14]
Palestinians who apply for medical treatment in Israel must obtain a humanitarian entry permit from Israel, of which thousands are issued annually. In January 2009, following the Gaza War, the Palestinian Authority canceled financial coverage for all medical care for Palestinians in Israeli hospitals, including coverage for the chronically ill and those in need of complex care not available in the Palestinian territories.[15][16] In 2012, The Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Health reported spending approximately $42 million in 2011 to finance medical coverage of Palestinians in Israeli hospitals and the Arab World. [17] Arab citizens of Israel belong to the same health care system as that of all other citizens of the country."
Note that the Palestinian Authority cancelled the healthcare, even while Israeli hospitals were willing to treat Palestinians, nominally their enemy.
From Al Arabiya http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/08/231069.html
"A report was released in March by Israel’s Civil Administration announcing that 115,000 Palestinians were treated in Israel in 2011, a rise from the previous year by 13 percent according to The Jewish Press news website. Over 100 Palestinian doctors were trained at Israeli hospitals and five organ transplants took place in Israel to save the lives of Palestinian patients."
Come back with facts.