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One Bitcoin By the Numbers: Is There Still Profit To Be Made?

massivepanic writes with an article that "runs through the logistics of mining a Bitcoin on everyday gaming computers while keeping an eye on power consumption, time spent, and return on investment. From the article: 'I have mined a Bitcoin. This was not much of an accomplishment a year or two ago, but in 2013, after the infamous early-April peak at $260, unearthing a Bitcoin is no easy task. Competition is on the rise and we are getting close to the end of the good ol' days of Bitcoin; the time when a desktop computer or two have any real mining capabilities.'"

239 comments

  1. Remember the old adage by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It takes money to make money. The ROI is higher the more you spend.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:Remember the old adage by femtobyte · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And remember another old adage: "There's a sucker born every minute." Want to get some ROI? Don't mine bitcoin, sell bitcoin mining rigs. Like selling shovels and booze to miners in a gold rush, it's a great way to make sure you get the cash now, and leave someone else scrabbling in the dirt with all the risk that tomorrow's newer custom FPGA rigs and market prices will make today's mega mining cluster not worth the electricity to switch on.

    2. Re:Remember the old adage by joocemann · · Score: 1

      But bitcoin is extremely wasteful. At least with real coins the metals are still useful.

    3. Re:Remember the old adage by omnichad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As long as you know when to get out. Otherwise, you'd be just like the miner - left with a lot of spare equipment of no value. Inventory isn't free.

    4. Re:Remember the old adage by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Funny

      A bitcoin may cost more in electricity than the bitcoin is worth, but hell we can make up for it with volume!

    5. Re:Remember the old adage by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      Aren't Bitcoin mining rigs regular FPGA rigs configured for that specific task? Reset the hardware/software and you can sell it as regular FPGA to any number of people, it's nothing custom-made for mining Bitcoins.

    6. Re:Remember the old adage by Shark · · Score: 1

      It's hard to make a general-purpose fpga board cost-efficient for bitcoin mining. And with ASIC mining solutions now surfacing, it's also going the way of the GPU, just as that obsoleted the CPU.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
    7. Re:Remember the old adage by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 2

      It's hard to make a general-purpose fpga board cost-efficient for bitcoin mining.

      Possibly you missed the adage: "There's a sucker born every minute."

    8. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      But bitcoin is extremely wasteful. At least with real coins the metals are still useful.

      Bitcoin bits are infinity reusable. You could reuse those bits to make a picture, song, movie, spreadsheet, game, encryption key, etc.

    9. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin bits are infinity reusable. You could reuse those bits to make a picture, song, movie, spreadsheet, game, encryption key, etc.

      Those sound far more useful! In fact, why am I wasting my time converting them into Bitcoins in the first place?

    10. Re:Remember the old adage by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Probably not – or at least not for long. ROI is a ratio, Return Over Investment - or the percent return on your investment regardless of what the exact amount of the investment is. It allows somebody to compare a small project vs. a big project.

      Your ROI would get greater as long as you have economies of scale – that is, the more money you spend the more efficient of a computer setup you get. I am going to make the assumption that pretty quickly you are going to hit the economies of scale (I don’t know a lot about BitCoin rigs, so I could be wrong.) – So, after you have purchased the most efficient BitCoin miner, the next BitCoin miner you buy will have the same ROI as the first - no more increase.

    11. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In college dorms, electricity is "free".

    12. Re:Remember the old adage by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bitcoin appears very strongly to have been designed so that the inventors and early adopters got the most money for free, the late adopters have a difficult time getting the money out of it, and may even be spending money to try to get some faster. At least with a real gold mine there was actual work and sweat required even by the first miners and they never lied and said they were doing this for the good of others or to try and create an alternative system.

    13. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FPGAs won't be able to match ASICs for mining bitcoins. Litecoins, maybe. Bottom line is you don't what you're talking about.

    14. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      At least with a real gold mine there was actual work and sweat required even by the first miners

      "I'll trade you some of these pretty rocks I effortlessly found in a stream for that saber-tooth tiger skin."
      (years later)
      "Well, it just became cost-effective to retrieve gold from the asteroid belt."

    15. Re:Remember the old adage by petermgreen · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bitcoin mining is starting to move towards ASICs now.

      But ignoring that even with FPGA while the FPGAs themselves are standard parts the boards usually aren't. Afaict most off the shelf boards for FPGAs fall into one of two categroies. Either they are PCIe/PXIe cards designed to move a lot of data over a bus system or they are hardware dev boards with loads of different interfaces for a developer to play with. Bitcoin mining needs neither of those, it just needs power and a way to get a tiny ammount of data in and out. The result is an off the shelf FPGA board is a poor value proposition for mining and a mining optimised FPGA board isn't much use for anything else.

      I guess you could desolder the FPGAs from your no longer viable FPGA boards and then reball them and try and sell them but I think you'd find it pretty hard to find a buyer for such parts (afaict reballing voids the warranty) and if you did find one you'd have to sell them at a massive discount to fresh FPGAs from the manufacturer.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    16. Re:Remember the old adage by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      "I'll trade you some of these pretty rocks I effortlessly found in a stream for that saber-tooth tiger skin."

      "Screw that. I'll just go down to the stream myself."

      ... a few hours later ...

      "Screw that; looks like you found all the obvious sparklies. See this big spiky club I just whacked a saber-tooth tiger with? How about you give me your sparkly rocks in trade for keeping your skull in one piece?"

    17. Re:Remember the old adage by Loether · · Score: 1

      Electricity, like information, wants to be free.

      --
      TODO create witty sig.
    18. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just realized a great get rich quick scheme. Rent house in "bad neighborhood" then bypass electrical meter and MINE the piss out of Bit-coins. Yeah, it's illegal but if everyone where doing it you couldn't get rich quick doing it.

      P.S. Don't use your real name when renting the house. Also, make sure you receive your Bit-coins anonymously. Just set it up and assume when it goes off-line that the police where responsible.

    19. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called a Ponzai scheme.

      And if any of you had a clue about finance, you would see it as exactly that too.

    20. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin appears very strongly to have been designed so that the inventors and early adopters got the most money for free, the late adopters have a difficult time getting the money out of i

      By that logic, ANY investment is a scam. After all, the 'early buyers' of a rising stock make the most money, as opposed to those who buy later, after the price has gone up some.

    21. Re:Remember the old adage by tann.rocc · · Score: 1

      you're absolutely right. I've spent the entire day researching about bitcoins and for every path I followed,I ended up that the only worth solution was to mine bitcoins from the start. The worst thing is that the net is full of people that evangelize bitcoins or just criticize it about its use in illegal stuff but no one seems to care about what happened in the beginning and how much the people behind it have raised with this project

    22. Re:Remember the old adage by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      If you like get-rich-quick schemes that involve robbing utilities in bad neighborhoods, you could also consider calling in fake water leaks and downed power lines, then carjacking the utility repair crews at gunpoint when they show up. On the other hand, you could consider not trying to get rich quick off of antisocial douchebaggery.

    23. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin appears very strongly to have been designed so that the inventors and early adopters got the most money for free, the late adopters have a difficult time getting the money out of it, and may even be spending money to try to get some faster. At least with a real gold mine there was actual work and sweat required even by the first miners and they never lied and said they were doing this for the good of others or to try and create an alternative system.

      Not to disparage the point you were trying to make, which was quite valid, but most money made in mining was made by people who never touched a pick or shovel or any other mining tool. It was the promoters who sold shares to speculators, whether or not a mine could yield a profit or even whether or not there was a mine in the first place, who made out like bandits.

    24. Re:Remember the old adage by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      That's why I'm sure this is a scam. If it were on the up-and-up, with an idealistic libertarian or gold standard believer trying to introduce an alternative currency mechanism, they would have used a different manner to start it up. Say put some of their own money into escrow to kick things off, have people buy into it, or so forth. If these guys are honest then they're deluded; probably thinking that governments just print their own money so why can't they.

      Money is a means of exchange. I give you A in exchange for B. Salary in exchange for work, cash in exchange for services, etc. So if someone buys a bitcoin what are they exchanging? They're handing over $1000 in exchange for someone running a bitcoin generating program? This is like some sort of far fetched performance art where the audience isn't sure when to start clapping.

    25. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to mine anything to make money off bitcoin, just play the markets and you can trade your way to making bitcoins. I've done this successfully over the years and made 200 dollars from simply buying and selling bitcoin from the exchanges.

    26. Re:Remember the old adage by wed128 · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's called a Ponzai scheme.

      Which is sort of like a Ponzi scheme, but groomed very carefully over many years to be much smaller.

    27. Re:Remember the old adage by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's too bad all this hardware we own has closed drivers. Tons of stuff comes with an FPGA in it. Many of them would probably not be good for much, but most of those are very low power and people have them lying around so it would be lovely to be able to reuse them. Many USB video capture devices have an FPGA for example, for no apparent reason, but they also have closed windows-only drivers to go with, and a big firmware blob.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    28. Re: Remember the old adage by chris.evans · · Score: 0

      You don't know what you talking about, the cpu and gpu are not going away anytime soon.

    29. Re:Remember the old adage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bankers, backslicked financial whelps and govt monopoly of money are a much bigger waste of resources. When comes to electricity wasted by bitcoin-mining rigs... they are just advanced heating systems. At least they do some useful stuff before ending their energy as heat... the lowest form of energy.

    30. Re:Remember the old adage by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Like selling shovels and booze to miners in a gold rush,

      Very apposite. Few people that I know, other geologist aside, seem to know that the large majority of gold rushes result in net INCOME into an area, as people bring their savings into an area, spend them on shovels and booze, and then depart poorer than they arrived.

      But you'll not see that in the advertising, of course. "Sucker", "minute", "born", "one" ; rearrange.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    31. Re:Remember the old adage by thecount12 · · Score: 1

      So Yes it does take money. How would you like an ROI calculator. It seems that FPGA makes a faster turn round because ASIC takes forever for customer delivery. visit http://raspberrycoins.com/ thats r a s p b e r r y c o i n s . c o m for more information.

  2. other ways by deodiaus2 · · Score: 2

    I wonder if at this point it makes more sense to push an alternative, E-coins. I better go out and push it!! Maybe just as a contingency in case Bitcoins have technical issues.

    1. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, and once your e-coin economy crashes you can roll out the new f-coin hotness and ride the wave to profit and victory!

    2. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A bunch of alt-coins are already out there, though mostly developed by the same community. Namecoin, Lightcoin, PPCoin (peer-to-peer) coin. The latter may have value given that after the initial period, it will generate coins based on proof-of-stake (possession of coins) rather than proof-of-work (energy intensive number crunching), with an ecological benefit.

      That value remains to be seen, and just because it's better doesn't mean it will take off.

      Disclaimer: I own a modest number of these for interests' sake and in case one of them pops.

    3. Re:other ways by r2kordmaa · · Score: 1

      Yeah, only that all current alternative e-coins are pretty much copy-paste-modify-conf versions of bitcoin so if there are any serious technical issues with bitcoin(none found so far) they will affect others just the same. Bitcoin is the first technology to make money transfer without trusted third party possible and will possibly remain an only one for a long time.

    4. Re:other ways by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      Plenty of letters left in the alphabet - Captain Jean-Luc Picard

    5. Re:other ways by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      A bunch of alt-coins are already out there

      This is precisely what makes Bitcoin worthless.

      As soon as mining becomes too difficult, all the miners/speculators will shift to the Next Big Thing (all hoping to get in at the top level).

      The miners/speculators are what gives Bitcoin its value. That value will come crashing down when they leave.

      --
      No sig today...
    6. Re:other ways by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      Bitcoin is the first technology to make money transfer without trusted third party possible and will possibly remain an only one for a long time.

      Really? Back in my day, we used this technology:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_money

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    7. Re:other ways by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      no no no...everyone knows it is E-coins THEN iCoins! At least if we go by the 90s E prefix into the 2000 I prefix

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    8. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Involves a trusted third party. The one who prints the money.

    9. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoins are not a store of value, nor are the alternative digital currencies. What you're investing in is "secure transaction futures."

      Think of it this way: if you're going to be doing a lot of encrypted messaging, it's a good idea to have a stash of one-time pads.

    10. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about x-coins: the eXtreme solution?

    11. Re:other ways by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Is that party involved in transferring the money?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    12. Re:other ways by r2kordmaa · · Score: 1

      money transfer as in the context of internet obviously

    13. Re:other ways by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      If you'll take bitcoin from me without a trusted 3rd party to verify it, I have an infinite supply of bitcoins for you.

      You clearly don't understand how bitcoin works.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    14. Re:other ways by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Sure, but Chaum's work on digital cash predates Bitcoin by more than 20 years.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    15. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true.

      So bitcoin stands on the shoulders of giants - just like everything else worthwhile that civilization has developed.

      Is that a problem?

    16. Re:other ways by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      The person I was replying to claimed that Bitcoin was the first system that allowed money to be transferred without requiring a trusted party.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    17. Re:other ways by r2kordmaa · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there doesnt seem to be much more information out there about it than "it was" tho, doesn't seem to me like it was decentralized any way or didnt need trusted third party. Bitcoin certainly is not first digital currency out there, but i don't think there is this kind of decentralisation precedent. Its more than "no trusted third party needed", its designed to be government proof, this test is yet to come, but i think it will pass. Only real vector of failiure i see right now is economical, it might just turn out to be a fad, or not, who can tell. but the system design seems to be incredibly watertight to me.

    18. Re:other ways by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      there doesnt seem to be much more information out there

      There are literally hundreds of scholarly articles, most of which can be downloaded from their authors' websites.

      doesn't seem to me like it was decentralized any way or didnt need trusted third party

      Numerous systems with "offline" payments -- i.e. where transfers of money did not require a third party -- have been presented, including several with rigorous security proofs. Many of those systems have the property that the issuer of the money cannot blacklist honest parties i.e. even though a central authority is used to identify people who double spend, that party does not have the power to frame people for double spending.

      Its more than "no trusted third party needed", its designed to be government proof

      Except that anyone who devotes sufficient computing power can selectively deny confirmations on transactions in Bitcoin. Do you really think that much computing power is out of reach for major world governments?

      The problem with Bitcoin, since its very beginning, is the lack of rigor. There are no rigorous security definitions. The community just shrugs off polynomial time attacks. The high-level protocol is poorly documented and difficult to analyze. It is hard to even say whether or not Bitcoin is "government proof," even if we had a good definition for that, without a rigorous security definition.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    19. Re:other ways by charlesnw · · Score: 1

      Um. The US govt is the trusted third party with paper money.

      --
      Charles Wyble System Engineer
    20. Re:other ways by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      So when you give someone USD, you have to call up the government and have them participate in the transaction?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    21. Re:other ways by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      X was early 90s - pre E. get with it man!

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    22. Re:other ways by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't understand how bitcoin works.

      If you are involved with it and are not one of the founders of the scam but a mere sucker it's clear you don't understand how it works either.

    23. Re:other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there another one out there in actual use, that came before Bitcoin?

    24. Re:other ways by r2kordmaa · · Score: 1

      There are literally hundreds of scholarly articles

      i meant on a glance, i'm not going to dig through technical history of something dead for fun, so im sure you know better than me

      Except that anyone who devotes sufficient computing power can selectively deny confirmations on transactions in Bitcoin. Do you really think that much computing power is out of reach for major world governments?

      Out of reach? No. Out of justifiable reach? Yeah.

      Bitcoin is beyond a point where supercomputer would be useful attack tool. You could still beat asic producers to it, make your own asic more powerful and mass produce it fast to achive the kind of hashing power to seriously harm Bitcoin. But well.. the budget... Soon when every Joe and his dog has an asic miner even that attack vector is no longer viable. As a last resort a governemt can always pull the plug on internet itself, but again, that is outside of justifiable reach.

      By the way, selective denial of confirmations if a feature, as mining for block reward becomes unprofitable(soon i bet) there must be an insentive to include that small voulantary trasaction fee.

    25. Re:other ways by home-electro.com · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same. Bitcoins reached the point where they are barely interesting. Why not just take entire bitcoin software, modify it slightly to separate the to 'money' systems, and then start everything all over. Naturally, keeping the first 100K of new 'coins' for myself.

      I even came up with a new name - bytecoins.

  3. Not at this point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For most people, no not at this point. The computing power in the network at this point is immense, it makes the fastest super computers look like pocket calculators, so without a costly and lengthy investment you won't see anything but pennies in return.

    Of course it all scales with the price of Bitcoin, which fluctuates heavily, so this could change from one month to the next.

  4. Bitcoin is dead... by magic+maverick+ · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bitcoin is a scam, and is never going to go anywhere. After all, you can't pay your taxes with it.
    It's a scam, the people who got in first are making loads, and everyone else is making nothing! Just like a pyramid scheme.

    And it's not worth mining, because of ASICs etc.

    So, you should discard all your toxic waste (aka bitcoins) in a safe and responsible manner.

    Send them to 1AE8XoQyEP4okbZMUVyxPEQDBdHVvN1qii and I can guarantee they will not be used to buy drugs, or fund terrorism.

    --
    HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
    1. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Joce640k · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin is a scam, and is never going to go anywhere. After all, you can't pay your taxes with it.

      Last I heard, the tax office doesn't accept chickens, goats, cows, flint axes, clam shells... or any number of things that were once used as money.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      After all, you can't pay your taxes with it.

      But you can buy tulip bulbs and Beanie Babies!

    3. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Heh. I'm reading a spot of fiction/fantasy where a massive economic collapse has happened, and the Government is worrying about taxing all the barter/trade going on. Cell minutes become a currency in a heartbeat. When talking about taxing individuals, one Smart Person mentions "how do you compute 10% of a chicken? Do we just mail them 10% of it when we butcher it for dinner? The IRS is gonna be getting a lot of packages full of rotting chicken guts...."

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    4. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      Please help! My friend is a Prince and he needs to hide a lot of money quickly! We were planning on using your Bitcoin account, but I tried www.1AE8XoQyEP4okbZMUVyxPEQDBdHVvN1qii.com and it didn't work! Something about HOSTS FILES NOT FOUND or some other crap. I also got an APK ERROR on top of that!

    5. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1

      You can buy gold with it, then sell the gold and pay your taxes on the profit.

      So you can pay taxes with and on bitcoin, you just have to buy and sell the right items.

    6. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by magic+maverick+ · · Score: 1

      Please accept my apologies.
      Please use this link to send your coins.

      --
      HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
    7. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you think they're no longer used as money?

    8. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And therein lies the problem with taxation of bartering. The government has no business taxing barter transactions.

      Taxation is forgiveness of government debt by those that use its services. That's why the government is only open to payment in the debt notes issued by them. If you send them a chicken, they have little use for it, and they're still stuck with outstanding debt notes.

      So why are they counting chicken-trade against your tax bill? Because they can. Right up until there's no more blood in the stone, so to speak. When you're out of debt notes, there's really nothing else they can do to get them from you. So they throw you in debtor's prison for refusing to play their game. Now YOU'RE in debt-note-debt to them. When a government falls that far, it's time for someone to take it out behind the woodshed and send it to the place with all the rabbits. And chickens.

    9. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the author is stupid http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Bartering-Tax-Center

      If they don't pay? Same as if they don't pay what they owe on 1040 or any other tax Doc.

    10. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Those things have value, beyond just perceived value. You can eat a chicken or the eggs it produces, you can use a flint axe to craft things, etc. Even gold which superficially appears to have no intrinsic value required much work and effort to obtain initially, plus it looks nice. Unlike bitcoins, the majority of which too no effort or investment to obtain, and the value is based completely on the ability to market it to suckers.

    11. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't pay your taxes with yen, either, but you can make money speculating on currency futures contracts.

      (Now, whether you will make money is another question altogether...)

    12. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they will still tax you on them.

    13. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin is a scam, and is never going to go anywhere. After all, you can't pay your taxes with it.

      Last I heard, the tax office doesn't accept chickens, goats, cows, flint axes, clam shells... or any number of things that were once used as money.

      At the time those commodities were used as money tax collectors did accept them. In more advanced areas they would even have a standard conversion rate (how many chickens equal a cow, etc.). So the tax collectors knew how to value whatever random combination of agricultural products any given farmer would pay in.

    14. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh. I'm reading a spot of fiction/fantasy where a massive economic collapse has happened, and the Government is worrying about taxing all the barter/trade going on. Cell minutes become a currency in a heartbeat. When talking about taxing individuals, one Smart Person mentions "how do you compute 10% of a chicken? Do we just mail them 10% of it when we butcher it for dinner? The IRS is gonna be getting a lot of packages full of rotting chicken guts...."

      That sounds like a really dumb story written by an ignorant author. You should stop reading it so you can read some good stuff instead. Here's some basic econ 101 so you know why you should throw a book like that against the wall in disgust next time:

      The reason people use money at all is that it makes it possible to trade regardless of whether both parties need what the other has. For example, I am an engineer in a group which designs and validates networking chips. If my employer paid me by giving me some of the chips, it would be nearly impossible for me to trade them for food and lodging. What's a farmer gonna do with a home gateway / router SoC? Even I can't do much with one on my own!

      Barter generates a lot of economic friction which restricts trade. Money acts as lubricant to remove that friction. Money is a huge force-multplier for economies, and is pretty much required in order to develop the deep labor specialization required both to improve overall economic productivity and to build a technological society.

      With that in mind, think about the implications of a modern industrial economy collapsing to the point where people are driven to abandon money. Engineers, technicians, and scientists are going to be out on the streets desperately doing whatever we can to obtain goods tradeable for food, and/or attempting to farm or hunt for ourselves. We certainly won't be developing or maintaining technological infrastructure any more. Cell minutes as currency? Good luck with that, the cell networks aren't going to last long with nobody left to keep them running. Nor are the power plants.

      It also means there will be mass starvation, disease, and so forth. Our civilization is so dependent on high technology to support current population levels that devolving to barter implies lots of people have already died, with lots more on the way.

      It also implies that the old government would be powerless to tax 10% of a chicken. The reason money is recognized as valuable in a modern economy is essentially circular -- it's backed by a government which has the power to back it. If U.S. currency ever becomes so valueless that people barter instead of using it, there probably won't be an IRS anymore. If there is one, it'll be a toothless shell of its former self.

      Even ignoring that, the supposed Smart Person character talking about cutting off 10% of a chicken was actually an idiot making an idiot point in the idiot author's voice. Taxation in pre-industrial and partially non-monetary societies was quite simple. For example, feudal lords required payment of so many bushels of wheat (or whole animals, or whatever) per harvest, rather than demanding 10% of each chicken's carcass.

    15. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All currencies are arbitrary and inherently require the trust of the two parties to work. BTC are no different to government fiat currency that is backed by the promise of the taxpayers to pay their taxes.

    16. Re:Bitcoin is dead... by m.dillon · · Score: 1

      That is totally absurd reasoning. Everyone in the society is responsible for contributing to the upkeep and maintenance of societal structures. You know, like roads and parks and low-cost food and all the stuff you use every day and obviously don't think you have to pay for.

      Because our modern society functions with each individual specializing (e.g. I'm a programmer, I don't build bridges or farm crops)... because of that we need monetary and tax structures for each individual to be able to fairly contribute to the society as a whole.

      If you are proposing that we revert to a tribal structure where essentially nobody specializes in anything and people contribute to societal structures more directly, then not having taxes will work just fine. Of course, we won't have TVs or cell phones, cheap food, or vacations either! By all means, travel to some deep jungle somewhere and have at it! I'll stay here thank you very much!

      Whether you buy and sell stuff with cash or your barter makes no difference.

      -Matt

  5. Four ways to profit by onyxruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can profit from bitcoin in four different ways:

    1. Have a special asic rig that is custom made for mining bitcoins.
    2. Have a botnet that you put to work mining bitcoins using other peoples electricity.
    3. Speculate in bitcoins and bet that they will go up or down in value.
    4. Hack someone else that has bitcoins.

    Two out of the four ways to make profits with bitcoins are illegal and one of the others is often accompanied by illegal activity (DOS) to manipulate the exchanges to try to force the value up or down. It's been a while since you could mine them on your own and come out ahead on electricity versus bitcoin value. Perhaps there are some good reasons bitcoins have a shady reputation?

    1. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You forgot the most profitable way to make money with bitcoind
      5. Sell things (for real money) that can be used to make bitcoins

    2. Re:Four ways to profit by crevistontj · · Score: 1

      Is there really any practical way to short bitcoins?

    3. Re:Four ways to profit by Nrrqshrr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not really a defender of Bitcoins, but:
      You can get real money in four different ways:

      1. Have a special skill or qualification that allows you to acquire money.
      2. Put others to work earning you money for a profitable wage using other peoples special skills or qualifications.
      3. Speculate, lol.
      4. Steal.

      Only one of these is ethical.

    4. Re:Four ways to profit by girlintraining · · Score: 0

      1. Have a special asic rig that is custom made for mining bitcoins.

      A technology unavailable to the average person, thus effectively ensuring that this fiat currency is only produced by corporations. In other words, those who control the ASICs will be the OPEC of the digital currency world.

      2. Have a botnet that you put to work mining bitcoins using other peoples electricity.

      Which, legalities aside, will quickly make the production of bitcoins more expensive than any currency ever developed; And it's designed to continue to use resources up like a cancer. The Native Americans once said "Only after the white man has killed every buffalo, and cut down every tree. Only then, will the white man learn he cannot eat money." They probably didn't realize at the time that the siren call of 'digital' currency would result in the creation of a cancerous monetary system that attaches itself directly to the nervous system of society: Our energy grid.

      3. Speculate in bitcoins and bet that they will go up or down in value.

      We've already seen where speculation leads: Every major economic collapse has been based on investing on the guesswork of what other people will invest in... instead of investing in actual goods and services. Every. Last. One. Bitcoin will not be the thing that changes the historical record.

      4. Hack someone else that has bitcoins.

      Already quite popular, but this at least is something that can realistically be solved... through more corporate control. Yup, you heard me: By centralizing the "decentralized" currency, you can provide effective security. Which defeats the main reason why bitcoins were created in the first place: Anonymity.

      So what I see is basically the next Paypal of the internet, except instead of having one corporation fucking us all over, we'll have dozens. And once the corporations are in control, then the governments will move in to attach strings and turn them into marionettes. And after that... it becomes a political power struggle to control the new de facto currency of the internet.

      And we all know how well government control of the internet has been working out for us so far... now we're going to marry a cancerous monetary system that depends on exponentially increasing our energy consumption to government oversight, corporate profiteering, and then blobbing our global communications infrastructure and global economies together.

      Operation This Will Most Likely End Badly is a go.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    5. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Speculation is not unethical.

    6. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, don't buy them and invest in things of actual value.

    7. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Is there really any practical way to short bitcoins?

      I don't think so.

      That's why the price is so vulnerable to sudden collapses.

    8. Re:Four ways to profit by dkf · · Score: 1

      Speculation is not necessarily unethical.

      FTFY.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    9. Re:Four ways to profit by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      Only one of these is ethical.

      I disagree with that. If #1 is ethical, #2 is also ethical, by extension. (If it's ethical to work, why wouldn't it be ethical to employ?)

      #3 - speculation - is dubious. In its pure form, it's arbitrage with risk involved.

      If you meant to say "Only one of these is unethical", then I apologize for misunderstanding.

    10. Re:Four ways to profit by swb · · Score: 1

      Could you modify #2 in a way that uses cheaper electricity?

      Say wind/solar/micro-scale hydroelectric?

      Obviously if you have to build the power infrastructure from scratch, it's not worth it, but what if for some reason you had access to equipment that wasn't being used and you can generate a couple of kW for free?

      If electricity is really the major input cost (and not computing infrastructure), then a variation of #2 could involve stealing electricity but using your own computer equipment.

      I can almost see it now -- the feds busting the equivalent of a marijuana grow house where the interior has been stripped and stuffed full of PCs with power being stolen from the utility by bypassing the electric meter.

    11. Re:Four ways to profit by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      Only one of these is ethical.

      I'm guessing you meant theft. If you're starving to death, stealing a loaf of bread is something few people would say is unethical. As for the other three... well, they all involve money, and as we know, money is the root of all evil.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    12. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hard work and brains are also not necessarily unethical.

    13. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      And why does #2 follow from #1? This might be Capitalist dogma, but it's not a universal moral law. Many people do distinguish the category of "enjoy the fruits of your own labor" from "interpose yourself between someone else' willingness and ability to labor (by, e.g., owning the tools and resources), and collect a big cut of the fruits of their labor just because you are already rich (and they are poor, since they can only keep a tiny fraction of their labor's value for themselves)."

    14. Re:Four ways to profit by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      same way you would short stock. you have to borrow it from someone with the promise of returning their bitcoins later (probably with some interest), and then you sell them to someone else.

    15. Re:Four ways to profit by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      You're arguing that in a transaction where one person agrees to use their special skills or qualifications in exchange for another person giving them an agreed upon amount of "money", one of the two parties has done something unethical?

      I see nothing unethical about speculation either.

    16. Re:Four ways to profit by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      If it is ethical to work for others, it is ethical to employ others.

      Suppose I need work done, within your skill set. I can pay you to do the work, yes?

      Suppose I need work done, but I don't know who has the skills. I can pay an agent to find me a skilled worker, yes? (That agent's skill is finding me someone to perform the needed work.)

    17. Re:Four ways to profit by Agent+ME · · Score: 1

      It's been a while since you could mine them on your own and come out ahead on electricity versus bitcoin value.

      The reason mining does lower returns now is because more people are mining now. I imagine many of them are driven by profits and are smart enough to only mine if they have a machine that mines more bitcoins than what they spend on electricity. Your post reads like the joke "No one goes to that club any more, it's too crowded!".

    18. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      The difference in "practicality" is all the government regulation and lack-of-anonymity in stock shorting transactions. All the "benefits" of bitcoin make it a really dumb idea to say "hey, I'll send $10000 to pseudonymous internet guy #9cdn89274nkdw0, for a promise to sell me back bitcoins later." If you expect to buy "promises" from people, you need a lot of complex safeguards to make sure they don't just vanish away as soon as they have the money --- the opposite of what the Bitcoin system is set up to achieve.

    19. Re:Four ways to profit by Dr.+Sheldon+Cooper · · Score: 1

      The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

      There is nothing wrong with money, nor with having lots of it. It is when one begins to value money over all other things that one begins to fall.

      --
      Bazinga.
    20. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      If it is ethical to work for others, it is ethical to employ others.

      No, one does not follow from the other. Both assumptions are often held, but not on account of irrefutable logic or some god-given law of ethics.

      Suppose I need work done, within your skill set. I can pay you to do the work, yes?

      What you "can" do has nothing to do with what is ethical. Under some systems, if you want the results of my skills, you owe me the full value of those skills, not "as little as you can get away with at labor market prices because you are rich and I am desperate".

      I can pay an agent to find me a skilled worker, yes?

      Again, what you "can" do under current systems does not prove anything is "universally" ethical. If you need labor and the skill of locating labor, then perhaps you should pay the full value of both (instead of paying a labor-finder to exploit a laborer). Keeping slaves "in line" is a skill, but that doesn't make it ethical to benefit from slave labor by paying a slave-driver as your agent.

    21. Re:Four ways to profit by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Method number 5: create your own alternative currency by fiat, grant yourself a large amount of that currency, then try to convince others that your currency is legitimate. Sure, this sounds a lot like stealing except that the suckers voluntarily buy into the system. So maybe more like a long con.

    22. Re:Four ways to profit by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is false, by your own words. It only is after you add existing stupilations. You are assuming that because I choose number #2, that I'm also going to pay them less than they deserve, which is an assumption that may not be true in many cases, so its impossible for it to be a fact.

      If you are selling your labor, someone has to buy it. If it is ethical for you to sell it, it must be ethical for someone else to buy it. That does not preclude non-ethical behavior, but it certainly allows for the action to happen in an ethical matter.

      You seem to think that you're personal worth is priceless there for its okay for you to offer it to people but not for them to accept it because they couldn't possibly pay your fairly.

      In my experience, people who think like you do aren't worth wasting the atmosphere they consume. I suspect this applies to you as well.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    23. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      It is when one begins to value money over all other things that one begins to fall.

      So, as long as money isn't your absolute #1 priority, you're fine: "It's OK; I love the finer things in life more --- like having peons cower in my presence, collecting fine art, and snorting drugs off of gold-plated hookers." In the ethical system from which the "love of money" quip comes, "loving money" isn't bad just when it reaches Spot #1; and the typical advice for folks who had lots of money was "sell everything you have and give it to the poor." The rationalization that it was hunky-dory to amass giant heaping loads of money (so long as you had a couple "worthy cause" excuses for why it's so much better in your hands) came later, when folks with giant heaping loads of money got in charge and wanted things to stay that way.

    24. Re:Four ways to profit by mypalmike · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you'd call it practical, but there's at least one exchange, http://mpex.co/, where you can apparently trade bitcoin options. A bearish position would involve buying puts and/or writing calls. Options are risky in the best of circumstances, and btc volatility and the lack of a mature market greatly magnifies that risk. Even if you are right about btc going down in value, timing and liquidity issues could easily cause you to lose 100% of the money you risk (or worse in the case of writing naked options).

      Which leads to the other way to make money in bitcoin...

      5. Create a bitcoin exchange and charge transaction fees.

      --
      There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.
    25. Re:Four ways to profit by Entropius · · Score: 2

      2. Have a botnet that you put to work mining bitcoins using other peoples electricity.

      Which, legalities aside, will quickly make the production of bitcoins more expensive than any currency ever developed; And it's designed to continue to use resources up like a cancer. The Native Americans once said "Only after the white man has killed every buffalo, and cut down every tree. Only then, will the white man learn he cannot eat money." They probably didn't realize at the time that the siren call of 'digital' currency would result in the creation of a cancerous monetary system that attaches itself directly to the nervous system of society: Our energy grid.

      Yes, this is exactly the point. The bitcoin system is designed to make the production of bitcoins far more expensive than their value. This doesn't mean that people will "continue to use resources like a cancer" -- if those resources are accurately priced, then people will simply stop using them to mine bitcoins. If the cost of electricity (in dollars) is drastically below the cost of electricity to society, then that's not a problem with people using electricity; it's the result of market-breaking subsidies to the production of electricity (like the failure to account for the environmental costs of burning coal). You can't blame bitcoin miners for the fact that electricity is artificially cheap.

      But, even with an artificially depressed cost of electricity, eventually the cost of mining a bitcoin will be more than the value of a bitcoin. The "white man" isn't going to "kill every buffalo, cut down every tree, and try to eat money" at that point; he'll simply stop mining bitcoins and do something else (and, perhaps, use bitcoins as the medium of exchange for them).

      Bitcoin doesn't depend on exponentially increasing our energy supply; only the continued mining of the things does.

      I don't think our current financial system is fatally broken, so I'm not a bitcoin-nut. But the idea behind the thing is not as bad as you describe.

    26. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      It only is after you add existing stupilations.

      Exactly, "employing others for money" is not necessarily ethical by extension of the ethicality of "working for money," without adding a lot of other stipulations (such as wages representing the full value of labor, not some lesser amount negotiated from a position of wealth and power).

      If you are selling your labor, someone has to buy it. If it is ethical for you to sell it, it must be ethical for someone else to buy it.

      Not without "added stipulations" about fairness of the work. For example, I might consider it ethical for a child laborer to sell their own body to feed themselves in a cruel and exploitative world, but not for their scumbag industrialist overlord to exploit this condition --- the "selling" side of the transaction is ethical, the "buying" side is not (without the addition of a lot more stipulations, involving the industrialist overlord turning over a much larger share of the profits to the employee, and paying himself far less for his easy desk job).

      You seem to think that you're personal worth is priceless

      Where did you get this idea from? My idea of fairness is that an hour of my labor is worth (roughly) an hour of someone else' (with some room for modifications based on the unpleasantness of work; but not the massive differentials typically represented in Capitalist society, where the least pleasant tasks often pay the least).

    27. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only one of these is unethical. There. FTFY.

    28. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The Native Americans once said "Only after the white man has killed every buffalo, and cut down every tree. Only then, will the white man learn he cannot eat money."

      "It is bad to ruin the environment. But it is far worse to misattribute modern environmental sayings to ancient Native Americans."

      - Native American proverb.

    29. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Alternate reductio ad absurdum argument that I hope will make you see the problem with your logic:

      If it is ethical for you to sell it, it must be ethical for someone else to buy it.

      Suppose you're strolling along when a mugger leaps out with a gun to your head, and says "your money, or your life!". I'd say it's ethical for you to give him your wallet and run. By your logic, does this make the mugger's actions ethical, too? After all, he's only enabling the other side of the transaction to your perfectly ethical decision to hand over your wallet.

    30. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's cut to the chase. You're the embodiment of pure evil, and I will twist anything you say into a delicious golden salted pretzel of illogic in order to "prove" that.

    31. Re:Four ways to profit by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      It is conceivable that while a structure is generally ethical (for example, work for hire), a specific instance may be arranged unethically (for example, price not reasonably aligned with value). Nobody is disputing that.

      Again, what you "can" do under current systems does not prove anything is "universally" ethical.

      You're being pedantic. Nobody is saying that anything is universally ethical; I'm saying that the concepts of working for others and employing others to perform work are not universally unethical. You're looking for extreme cases (like child prostitution) to justify your unreasonable claim that employing people to do work is unethical, because think of the children.

    32. Re:Four ways to profit by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      Several posts back, I believe we already agreed that stealing was not ethical.

    33. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      5.) Start a company that produces ASIC rigs

      If there were more money in running the rigs rather than just building and selling them, nobody would be selling them.

    34. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Right, which is why "buying labor" is not automatically an ethical extension of "selling labor," since it may be a form of stealing (though more "dilute" than jumping someone with a gun) without a large number of additional stipulations that are frequently absent from existing labor markets. Specifically, in the formulation that started the thread: "Put others to work earning you money for a profitable wage" is unethical in many ethical systems, since you shouldn't be "earning money" by putting others to work, rather "getting an equal trade for things produced by your own labor" (only the contribution of your own labor should "earn" you something, not arranging to reap the profits of others' work).

      I can't prove that this actually is unethical (since I can't prove which ethical system is "right"); but I'm pointing out that it's not a "logical" consequence of accepting that selling your own labor is ethical, but rather an assumption adopted within particular ethical systems (e.g. Capitalism).

    35. Re:Four ways to profit by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      The original statement was: "The love of money is the root of all KINDS OF evil."

      People do commit various kinds of evil out of greed. However, there is plenty of evil in the world which has nothing to do with money, just as the mere presence of money does not necessarily result in evil.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    36. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I'm being pedantic because being precise and pedantic is a way to reach logically correct conclusions. Your statement:

      If it is ethical to work for others, it is ethical to employ others.

      is simply false. An ethical system might choose to adopt both assumptions (or reach them both from other assumptions), but the latter does not follow from the former. Especially when "employ" is shorthand notation for the precise case you were originally supporting:

      2. Put others to work earning you money for a profitable wage using other peoples special skills or qualifications.

      in many ethical systems this might not be ethical at all --- specifically, the "earning you money" part, in systems which assume the laborer should be earning themselves the fruit of labor, with the possibility of equal exchange (useful and beneficial but not profitable to both sides) with other parties.

    37. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My concern with BitCoin is that we will get the tragedy of the commons at work. First stuff that would go would be "all bills paid" apartments, then even 120 volt plugs at a McDonalds would be in danger of disappearing due to someone plugging a laptop or a dedicated ASIC appliance just to mine space.

      The ironic thing is that all these exotic plans are just going after the scraps... the true people who made it big were the founders of the currency when it was easy to mind on a desktop CPU without FPGA or ASIC assistance. However, those times are gone, so it will be fighting over pieces of the pie, not expanding it.

    38. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It only is after you add existing stupilations.

      Exactly, "employing others for money" is not necessarily ethical by extension of the ethicality of "working for money," without adding a lot of other stipulations (such as wages representing the full value of labor, not some lesser amount negotiated from a position of wealth and power).

      Bullshit.

      Here's a proof by contradiction for you.

      Assume that it is ethical to work for money.
      Assume it is unethical to hire someone to work.

      It is imposible to work for money without someone else hiring you for your work, therefore to work for money is to cause another to hire you for work.
      Since causing another to do something unethical is unethical, it must also be unethical to work for money.
      Reductio Ad Absurdum.

    39. Re:Four ways to profit by dkf · · Score: 1

      Hard work and brains are also not necessarily unethical.

      Nor are they necessarily ethical. After all, it took a lot of brains and hard work to cause the financial crash. Some people work ridiculously hard on nefarious activity. (I was told today about a team of thieves who spent months tunneling under a road and into a convenience store in order to steal an ATM that in the end held less than a thousand bucks in cash; I believe the cops worked out that they'd worked very hard in effect for less than 50 cents an hour. Morons.)

      My original point was that it is most certainly possible for speculation to be unethical, even if some speculation is also clearly ethical. Blanket assertions of ethicality of a particular method are just too broad.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    40. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      FTFY, recycling my own reductio ad absurdum from another reponse:

      It is impossible for you to give a mugger your wallet in return for your life (an ethical thing for you to do) without someone else mugging you for money, therefore to be mugged for money is to cause another to mug you for money. Since causing another to do something unethical is unethical, it must also be unethical to be mugged for money.

      Just because it's ethical to work for money (because, e.g., you need to feed yourself / your family), it's not necessarily ethical to be the hirer (without many more stipulations that keep "hiring" from coming close to "mugging").

    41. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there were more money in digging for gold rather than just selling picks and shovels, nobody would be selling them.

    42. Re:Four ways to profit by girlintraining · · Score: 0

      The bitcoin system is designed to make the production of bitcoins far more expensive than their value.

      Just out of curiousity, when did the production cost exceeding the value of the thing produced become a good thing in macroeconomic theory?

      if those resources are accurately priced, then people will simply stop using them to mine bitcoins.

      Right, because we can rely on other things like gold, oil, insurance premiums, etc., to all be accurately priced. Blind faith in the laws of supply and demand doesn't exactly win you many points for your argument.

      it's the result of market-breaking subsidies to the production of electricity (like the failure to account for the environmental costs of burning coal).

      Our planet is currently warming at a hyper-accelerated rate such that in the last 50 years, it is forcing the extinction of hundreds of species. You're saying that when people are made aware of this, it'll just stop. Can you provide any evidence to support this claim that somehow an enhanced understanding of our environment will, all by itself, result in anyone caring about it?

      But, even with an artificially depressed cost of electricity, eventually the cost of mining a bitcoin will be more than the value of a bitcoin.

      The cost of mining a bitcoin has exceeded the value of the bitcoin since the first bitcoin was created. And yet, we're continuing to throw resources at it... and considering that it becomes exponentially more expensive... that hasn't yet resulted in an exponential decrease in demand. Can you explain why?

      Bitcoin doesn't depend on exponentially increasing our energy supply; only the continued mining of the things does.

      No, profiting from bitcoin production depends on exponential increase of our energy supply. And I'm not aware of very many people willing to take on the suicidally stupid proposition that people will realize that personal profit at enormous cost to the environment is "bad" -- since historically, and even presently, profit has become its own justification in most of western civilization.

      But the idea behind the thing is not as bad as you describe.

      No, it's actually a lot worse than I described. I was trying to downplay the problems because a lot of people here on slashdot hate the government and corporations so much they're willing to believe anyone who says some bullshit crypto-currency will give them some measure of power against those establishments. Bitcoins aren't a sound investment... they're popular because of sociopolitical reasons. And when it becomes clear that the reasoning there is flawed, they'll still cling to it because they bought into it... in the same way you've got piles of climate change deniers who will quite happily continue to scream "This isn't happening! Freeee maaaarrrkkeeett ruleeees!!" right off the edge of the cliff and the planet is literally on fire.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    43. Re:Four ways to profit by ancientt · · Score: 1

      Who has been lying to you? I can't believe you're capable of making the arguments you've presented and yet incapable of understanding why they're based on lies or at the most charitable, misinformation. I'll try to sum up where you have been so grossly misinformed rather than write a book worth of responses. Please feel free to break the arguments down one by one in separate posts and I'll do my best to respond if you like.

      The value of bitcoin is as a medium of exchange, not as a medium of creating wealth. The whole point is to be able to have something that can be reliably exchanged like traditional money. The value of bitcoin has nothing to do with the ability to generate a bitcoin.

      Let me say that again because it seems to be the most fundamental point that you've missed: Bitcoin has value because it is a medium of exchange, not because you can mine them.

      If you think that bitcoins only have value because they can be created, you're missing the point. If you think that bitcoins only have value as an investment strategy, you're missing the point. It would be silly to say that dollars only have value because they can be minted. It would be silly to say that dollars only have value because you can invest in them. Dollars have value because they can be used to purchase stuff. Bitcoins have value because they can be used to purchase stuff.

      Dollars would lose their value if people didn't trust them. They're only trustworthy because they can't be easily created. In fact dollars are easier to counterfeit than bitcoins. It is the scarcity (like dollars, only more so) and the convenience for exchange (like dollars, but more so in some instances) that makes bitcoin a valuable method of exchange.

      Bitcoins have value because they are a scarce resource that is easily exchanged and are accepted as a way to temporarily store the value of your efforts in order to be exchanged for something you want. That's what money is.

      The cost of electrictity is certainly present, but it's nothing compared to the cost of armored cars, banks, ATMs, driving deposits to the bank, law enforcement hours spent fighting counterfeiting and minting. Even the cost of managing the exchange of dollars when measured in electrictity is wasteful compared to doing the same with bitcoins. You seem very concerned about the way people are using resources on a planatery scale. Traditional physically produced currencies are tremendously wasteful. How can you be so against something that cuts down on the waste?

      --
      B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
    44. Re:Four ways to profit by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      I'll try to sum up where you have been so grossly misinformed rather than write a book worth of responses. Please feel free to break the arguments down one by one in separate posts and I'll do my best to respond if you like.

      Okay, I'll try not to take the fact that you're a condescending asshole with only a tenuous grasp on the discussion personally.

      The value of bitcoin has nothing to do with the ability to
      generate a bitcoin.

      For every other product; If you increase supply and demand remains constant, the price of said item goes down. For your statement to be true, the laws of supply and demand wouldn't apply to bitcoins. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

      Bitcoin has value because it is a medium of exchange, not because you can mine them.

      I can use anything as a medium of exchange -- but if the demand outstrips the supply, then the ability to conduct trades decreases. Which means that the cost of each trade goes up because liquidity has decreased. It is for this reason that we print more dollars every year, rather than just creating a set amount, then throwing the printing press in the fire. The number of dollars in circulation has a direct impact on the economy in a multitude of ways. Simply sprinkling magic "digitalization" dust over those logistical considerations doesn't make it vanish.

      Dollars would lose their value if people didn't trust them. They're only trustworthy because they can't be easily created.

      Actually, Iran owns two of the four printing presses capable of making flawless copies. And they're producing them by the ton (literally) in an effort to leech off of our economy. So there goes your "easily created" argument; and what'll really tickle your goose is when you find out that most of the currency in circulation isn't physical, but electronic. Banks can actually create more money by simply changing a few rows in a database. And despite both of these things, confidence in the dollar doesn't zero out.

      . It is the scarcity (like dollars, only more so) and the convenience for exchange (like dollars, but more so in some instances) that makes bitcoin a valuable method of exchange.

      I notice that only small-time investors, private parties, and criminals use bitcoin so far. It's not a valuable method of exchange; If it were, more reputable institutions would use it. It's value fluxuates wildly, and the average exchange implodes after only 18 months or so of operation. Your argument is busted, badly. What's worse, bitcoins aren't like dollars in that I can hand you a dollar and complete a transaction without a third party. All of these exchanges exist because straight-across exchange isn't possible right now ... and when you add middlemen, you add cost. Yes, you can cut up bitcoins into fractional amounts, but to conduct a direct person-to-person transaction without a 3rd party mediator, you need the whole coin.

      The cost of electrictity is certainly present, but it's nothing compared to the cost of armored cars, banks, ATMs, driving deposits to the bank, law enforcement hours spent fighting counterfeiting and minting.

      Yes, but those are all examples of fixed costs. Bitcoin production is exponential, not linear. Eventually, it'll fuck itself, to be blunt. And it'll fuck everyone who's using them too. I don't know how I can be any more clear -- exponential cost is very bad when you're tying it to money. It means that every trade inherits that trait. The exponent may be very low right now. Say it only costs a penny today. But double that penny every day for a month and it'll cost $30,370,005. That's not pocket change, now is it?

      You seem very concerned about the way people are using resources on a planatery scale. Traditional physically produced currencies are tremendously wasteful. How can you be so against something that cuts down on the waste?

      Because I wasn't asleep in basic algebra the day they discussed exponents.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    45. Re:Four ways to profit by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      "It is bad to ruin the environment. But it is far worse to misattribute modern environmental sayings to ancient Native Americans."

      Problem: It really did come from the Native Americans. Two centuries ago.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    46. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems to me only one on your list is clearly unethical - #4.

      Nothing wrong with #1.
      For #2 if you are not deceiving anyone and they willingly work for you what's so unethical about it? There are plenty of people who prefer to work for a steady wage than be the boss of their own company. When you start a company you usually won't have enough time to do things like read Slashdot.

      For #3 what's wrong with speculating if it's your own money you're gambling with. Gambling with other people's money is unethical if there's unfairness or deception involved.

    47. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you meant theft. If you're starving to death, stealing a loaf of bread is something few people would say is unethical.

      Everything is relative.

      "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
        - Anatole France

    48. Re:Four ways to profit by oboeaaron · · Score: 1

      Problem: It really did come from the Native Americans. Two centuries ago.

      Say what? From the link you provided:

      In conclusion, .... the phrase seems to have been crafted in relatively modern times [1970s], and thus does not have the deep historical resonance provided by age.

      --
      Journey onward.
    49. Re:Four ways to profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it is ethical to work for others, it is not of necessity unethical to employ others.

      Happy now?

    50. Re:Four ways to profit by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you already own the power infrastructure and you already own the computer then you can make a profit. But it may already be at the point where you can't even buy the hardware any more.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    51. Re:Four ways to profit by home-electro.com · · Score: 1

      Under some systems, if you want the results of my skills, you owe me the full value of those skills, not "as little as you can get away with at labor market prices because you are rich and I am desperate".

      Then simply don't sell your skills for less than what you think the value of such is. However, I have to remind you that you don't get to decide the value of your skills, market set it.

    52. Re:Four ways to profit by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm stuck selling my skills at "market value" --- that doesn't mean I have to accept that markets are an ethical system for treating humans. In the ethics I ascribe to, humans should be treated as humans --- not commodities, who are told to FOAD if their market value falls below the "price of production" so they become "surplus capacity" to be "creatively destroyed" by market forces.

    53. Re:Four ways to profit by dj245 · · Score: 1

      You can profit from bitcoin in four different ways:

      1. Have a special asic rig that is custom made for mining bitcoins. 2. Have a botnet that you put to work mining bitcoins using other peoples electricity. 3. Speculate in bitcoins and bet that they will go up or down in value. 4. Hack someone else that has bitcoins.

      You forgot FX trading. There isn't enough volume (or the time to complete a trade is too long?) in bitcoin to ensure that the different BTC->currency rates are the same ratio as other currency->currency ratios.

      For example, if I have $1 USD and can buy $1.10CAD, then use my $1.10CAD to buy 1.15 Swiss Francs, then use my 1.15 Swiss Francs to buy $1.05 USD, I'll keep making trade that way all day long until the ratios come back into order with each other. With real money, there are plenty of people who try to do this and the amount of money to be made is very small. There aren't enough people doing this in Bitcoin so the ratios are out of whack and often favorable to trade around.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    54. Re:Four ways to profit by NewYork · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin is NOT immune to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump
       

  6. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The pyramid scheme never ends...

    That's because Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme. You have completely misunderstood the meaning of one or both of these, to make a comment like that.

  7. FPGA - making money without effort - or not ! by burni2 · · Score: 1

    get an eval board with a decent rating (~1024$) learn (V)HDL

    btw.
    making money without effort is a very bad turn, or good in another sense, because when you look at the financial crisis, this is the way it happend
    speculation and greed.

    And to put it into perspective even if you aren't aware you are greedy and greed is the most potent danger to wealth. If you produce worth out of nothing there is a stabilization line and if you cross that and everybody does this you cannot quench money out of the thin air.

    So don't whine and go to work!

    1. Re:FPGA - making money without effort - or not ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ASICS, even currently, make FPGA look silly: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

    2. Re:FPGA - making money without effort - or not ! by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the ASICs are vapourware. And, at current Bitcoin prices, up-front costs and a minimum ASIC production run would be worth more than all the Bitcoins currently in circulation, so it will likely stay that way for a while, by which time will be zero.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  8. There are alternative alternatives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    More crypto-based currencies are coming around, Litecoin being the apparent "next big thing" I have been hearing.

    Me and a friend were going to get in on it to see if it would at least maybe get a few quid or so, not expecting huge returns, just a little bit of profit.
    But eh, I'm too lazy to leave a program running on its own.
    I may try it out, but it is getting in to figuring out exchanges, knowing when to sell, etc.
    I have a hectic life as is. Watching my investments is something I already don't do, probably stupidly on my part.

    Litecoins seem to be aiming at a more general lower priced currency for cheaper purchases because it is easier to do initial mining even on fairly old machines.

    So what does this say in general?
    There is likely going to be a boom in crypto-currencies in the coming decades.
    It might even end up leading to more virtual currencies in this century than there has been in the past all of human history, in fact.
    As more begin to dry up and stabilize, people will jump to new systems, or even make new systems, in attempt to get money.
    I could see a scenario where the creator of a currency gives their friends and family X coins before even going public, then when it gets remotely big, sell it.
    Someone smart enough could probably make a killing, and it will likely happen sooner rather than later since it is early days.

    Governments should probably get in on this and potentially make lots of money too.
    As these systems grow, it is going to get harder with time in general.
    If you thought the stock markets were crazy, this would be 100 times worse, it would move so much quicker because the only thing backing it is literally number count and word of mouth.

    1. Re:There are alternative alternatives. by magic+maverick+ · · Score: 2

      I personally don't think that Bitcoin is a scam. I think it has great potential. But the myriad of other "digital currencies" popping up, I suspect most, if not all, are scams. Seriously, someone went and started a new chain, presumably hoping to do some mining, and then cash out.

      With Bitcoins, you can buy various things, but what can you buy with "Litecoin"? Bitcoins? Bitcoins are established (though still niche) and can be used to purchase various services and products (though often via a middleman purchasing the product for you from a company like Amazon, and then sending it on). Litecoin can be used to purchase...

      Smells like a right scam to me. Though I'll happily be wrong, I'd advice anyone and everyone to avoid all alternative chains until they have verified that the particular chain can be used for what they want (whether that be buy drugs, or webhosting).

      --
      HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
    2. Re:There are alternative alternatives. by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      I personally don't think that Bitcoin is a scam. I think it has great potential. But the myriad of other "digital currencies" popping up,

      Considering that all these 'new digital currencies' are just literal copies of bitcoin ... what you've done is shown that you think bitcoin is good for no logical reason, and that its copies are bad, again for no logical reason.

      You've illustratued that your reason for liking BitCoin is you're just ignorant of any actual information about it.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    3. Re:There are alternative alternatives. by magic+maverick+ · · Score: 1

      Nah. I understand just fine.
      Point 1: many of these alternative chains are not exact copies of Bitcoin, but have some slight change (e.g. using scrypt instead of sha256).
      Point 2: Bitcoin wins, and has the most potential, because it was first. The others seem to be jumping on the bandwagon. Moreover, bitcoin wins because I can actually use it.
      Point 3: I like the idea of Bitcoin, but I love the idea of a decentralized pseudo-anonymous (and can be anonymous with sufficient infrastructure in place) non-governmental, non-corporate currency. At the moment, that's Bitcoin.
      Point 4: Basically, you've shown your ignorance. I've been following the Bitcoin project since around the start of 2011 (though I never got into mining, never had a powerful enough computer). I know enough.

      Bitcoin is special because it was first. Because it can actually be used to purchase goods and services. And because it has had massive media coverage (compared to the others), and thus is going to see much wider usage and acceptance. The other alternative chains and systems can't compete at the moment. So, it's not no logical reason, it's very clear that I've got logical reasons...

      --
      HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
    4. Re:There are alternative alternatives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, you always come off as being butthurt by everything. You need someone to talk to? A friend? Maybe a professional who can give you some guidance?
       
      LOLZZzz!!!!! You're a shitball.

  9. Same as the old boss... by taiwanjohn · · Score: 2

    So now Bitcoin becomes the province of "big iron" players like the gubmint and TBTF banksters. Great.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
  10. For those to lazy to click the link.... by MasseKid · · Score: 2

    Some guy mined a bit coin using the computers he had lying around not in use. It took him 15 days with 2 machines w/ AMD graphic cards. He spent 5 hours setting it up and 24$ of electricity to mint a single coin.

    1. Re:For those to lazy to click the link.... by egcagrac0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While that doesn't sound great, the 5 hours setting it up is one-time fixed overhead.

      Let's assume he can sell coins for at least $125... and the rate of generation stays about the same.

      That's $50 a week. If you saw $50 on the sidewalk, would you bend over to pick it up?

  11. Re:Another bitcoin article? by kaizendojo · · Score: 1, Troll

    A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.

    If the shoe fits....

  12. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The shoe doesn't fit. Bitcoin doesn't promise payment or reward enrolling other people.

  13. Betteridge says: by OhSoLaMeow · · Score: 1

    No.

    --
    They can take my LifeAlert pendant when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
    1. Re:Betteridge says: by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      No.

      Bzzt! Sorry, you lose; that's not what Betteridge is about.

      The headline here *is* an actual, legitimate question (whether sensible or not) and not just an excuse to weasel through a poorly-supported assertion in the guise of a fake "question".

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    2. Re:Betteridge says: by OhSoLaMeow · · Score: 1

      The "law" states that "Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

      There was a headline. It ended with a question mark. The answer is no.

      What part of that do you not understand?

      --
      They can take my LifeAlert pendant when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
    3. Re:Betteridge says: by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      The "law" [wikipedia.org] states that "Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." There was a headline. It ended with a question mark. The answer is no. What part of that do you not understand?

      Thank you for the selective smartass pedantry. As your quotes imply, this is not a self-encapsulated "law", but an observation you've isolated from its original- and intended- context.

      In the same WP article you link to, Betteridge is quoted saying "The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bollocks, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it."

      This doesn't have much to say about genuine question headlines... because it's not about that.

      In the original article itself, Betteridge states that

      [The headline "Did Last.fm Just Hand Over User Listening Data To the RIAA?" is] Daily Mail-style journalism, posing a statement as just “asking questions”.

      It's quite clear what the intent and spirit of Betteridge's "Law" was.

      If you want to bleat the literal wording of Betteridge's law in isolation while missing its clear spirit and intent (and whole raison d'etre) because you don't actually get what it's about and simply want to appear clever by kneejerk invocation of this year's off-the-shelf Slashdot cliche- which misses the entire point of that cliche!- then defend your ignorance with shallow pedantry, though, be my guest.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    4. Re:Betteridge says: by OhSoLaMeow · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected. Shortly after my "smartass pedantry", I read further. My apologies.

      --
      They can take my LifeAlert pendant when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
  14. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Joce640k · · Score: 0, Troll

    A founder at the top making a mint, some early adopters below him doing well, lots and lots of people at the bottom struggling to break even...

    It sure sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.

    --
    No sig today...
  15. Re:But why? by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

    i think it is still there also there are a lot more places to use bit coins just go look through the hidden wiki some time oh and you can order pizza with them

    --
    ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  16. Hopeless without a FPGA by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    Bitcoins earned: 1.00
    Value today: $133.58
    Total time: 14.5 days
    Rigs operating: 2-3

    Towards the end of the run I was getting impatient and ExtremeTechâ(TM)s Joel Hruska helped me sprint to the finish by giving me access to some of his machines...

    The era of Bitcoin mining with off-the-shelf hardware is over. The serious people are already using FPGAs, and if the people advertising ASIC hardware actually ship working product in quantity, even that will be obsolete. Like most Bitcoin-related businesses, the people selling ASIC mining hardware are flakes.

    Bitcoin mining becomes exponentially harder as the 21 million Bitcoin limit is approached. Over 11 million Bitcoins have already been found, so this is already more than half over. All miners are in competition. The rate of Bitcoin discovery is fixed, so the more people mining, the less each miner makes.

    1. Re:Hopeless without a FPGA by hodet · · Score: 1

      Ya and the next 10 million will not be completely mined until 2140. I bet there are a couple of million that are lost for good when they were worth nothing.

    2. Re:Hopeless without a FPGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya and the next 10 million will not be completely mined until 2140. I bet there are a couple of million that are lost for good when they were worth nothing.

      As someone else noted, about 5 million of the earliest mined have never been traded, someone is sitting on a fortune at the top. Early in is always the trick.

    3. Re:Hopeless without a FPGA by pla · · Score: 1

      if the people advertising ASIC hardware actually ship working product in quantity, even that will be obsolete.

      Big "if" there. So far, BFL looks like the greatest vaporware scam since DNF; Even what they offer, without really shipping, has doubled in price over the past few months. Pity, I would have picked up a Jalapeno, if they ever started shipping. Their new model at twice the price for the same performance, probably not.


      Like most Bitcoin-related businesses, the people selling ASIC mining hardware are flakes.

      Aaaaand, your credibility on this topic just evaporated.

      Yes, fraudsters exist in any market. But the vast majority of merchants accepting BTC, just like the vast majority of merchants accepting USD, provide an honest product or service for an honest price.

      In over $1500 (equivalent) of purchases via BTC - And I mean back in the days of $10 to $30 per BTC, not at $270 each - I got scammed... never. Not once. Nada. Zilch. I had one "questionable" experience with making a small private bet with someone who proved annoying to settle with, but in dealing with actual merchants, every single one sent me what I paid for in a timely manner.


      That said, does Bitcoin still look viable? TFA's numbers put it at about a 5:1 return, so I'd have to say "hell yes!". If you buy a high-end GPU today for mining, you'll realistically make your money back. How long it will keep making money, however, depends almost exclusively on, as you point out, how long it takes BFL to create an actual product. :)

    4. Re:Hopeless without a FPGA by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      If there was money to be made in mining with ASICs why in the hell would they ever ship rather than come right of the manufacture line and begin mining. If I have a machine that can print a legitimate $100 bill every week, why would I sell it unless it was for such a large amount of money that it wouldn't really be worth buying?

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  17. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Also, it isn't a business model.

  18. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by Joce640k · · Score: 0

    Scarcity doesn't necessarily drive prices up.

    Gullibility, OTOH...

    --
    No sig today...
  19. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is correct, it is a pump and dump

  20. Here's a tip by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    Nothing you post on a web forum is worth any money.

  21. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A founder at the top making a mint...

    Analysis of the block chain indicates that somewhere around 5 million early Bitcoins have never been traded. Those were generated when the difficulty was so low that ordinary CPUs could generate thousands of Bitcoins. Some of them were probably lost by people running the software in the early days and not keeping the results, but there's a reasonable chance that, somewhere, the anonymous people behind this have a few million Bitcoins stored up. Someday they may cash out.

  22. Re:Another bitcoin article? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    Pyramid, cube, sphere, whatever. You got something against Egyptians, you insensitive clod?

  23. Heat your home by mining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the weather is cold, then the "waste" energy from mining BitCoins is actually useful and will decrease the costs involved in other heating methods.

    1. Re:Heat your home by mining by femtobyte · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not compared to heat pump systems, that can often provide a lot more warming per watt than dumb direct heat generation methods. From Wikipedia on heat pumps:

      When used for heating a building on a mild day, for example 10 C, a typical air-source heat pump (ASHP) has a COP of 3 to 4, whereas an electrical resistance heater has a COP of 1.0. That is, one joule of electrical energy will cause a resistance heater to produce only one joule of useful heat, while under ideal conditions, one joule of electrical energy can cause a heat pump to move much more than one joule of heat from a cooler place to a warmer place.

      On the other hand, ground-source heat pumps (GSHP) benefit from the moderated temperature underground, as the ground acts naturally as a store of thermal energy.[4] Their year-round COP is therefore normally in the range of 2.5 to 5.0.

      Burning energy for 1:1 return on heat (+bitcoins) is still a terribly inefficient use of energy.

  24. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I just read from an investment newsletter that the Winklevoss Twins have a ton of bitcoins on flash drives locked up in safety desposit boxes.

  25. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree that bitcoin is built to be scarce, and therefore valuable, but that sort of thing is the opposite of what you want in a currency. If the currency constantly increases in value, then the best option is to obtain as much as possible and stuff it under the mattress. Only an inflationary currency encourages investment, because you actually lose money by hoarding it rather than investing it. If everyone hoards the stuff instead of spending it, it becomes useless as a medium of exchange.

  26. Re:Another bitcoin article? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

    It works great here in Utah where each 2 people have 6+ kids.

    Which, come to think of it, might be why pyramid sch....er sorry, MLM is so popular in Utah.

  27. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

    The audio recording industry has a non-sustainable business model, and they now claim customers are not buying a real product or service but simply acquiring a licence. Sounds like they are about two thirds of the way to being a pyramid scheme. They aren't promising any payment for enrolling others, at least yet. You could argue that pushers offer pyramid schemes, discounting drugs to get new 'members' to enroll as junkies, yet pushing heroin doesn't quite fit the pyramid scheme definition. Maybe what we need to focus on here is that it may take several forms of bad behavior to add up to a pyramid scheme, but having only some percentage of those features does not make something sound business, ethical, or often even legal.

    --
    Who is John Cabal?
  28. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BitCoin is a great thing:

    1: The original people and the founder got their coins when a CPU could easily do the task, instead of FPGA arrays, or even dedicated ASICs.

    2: It isn't anonymous, so people who think they can extort will be hunted down by FinCEN, the IRS, or if not in the US, Interpol. Had they used a Chaumian currency, anonymity would be a non-issue.

    3: It is another money making avenue for bot-herders, now that ID theft and spamming is a dry hole.

    4: It has so much volatility, that unless you were an early adopter, you have to move your value in and out of the currency as fast as possible.

    All and all, with no way for it to be anonymous... I'll just use PayPal instead. Lot easier, and less chance of the IRS demanding inquiries.

  29. Told you so.... by Jawnn · · Score: 1
    FTFA...

    Competition is on the rise and we are getting close to the end of the good ol' days of Bitcoin; the time when a desktop computer or two have any real mining capabilities.

    So it really is a pyramid scheme, of sorts.

  30. US Currency on soft rolls of paper by Dareth · · Score: 2

    I imagine US currency coming in nice $100 "soft rolls of paper". Least that way you know your money is always worth a ... well you get the picture.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
    1. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I imagine US currency coming in nice $100 "soft rolls of paper". Least that way you know your money is always worth a ... well you get the picture.

      It's become popular to say this, and that the government is printing money (duh), but I'd like to hear specifically what is it you actually mean by saying this? It seems people are hinting towards something problematic, but what is the actual (non-theoretical) problem you experience with the fairly stable modern currency systems everyday (years/decades)?

    2. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by alexander_686 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am an advocate of fiat money, but that is because I fear deflation more than inflation. (Well, my view is a bit more complex then that.)

      As for what you are saying, “years” is not the right answer. We have been in a finical crisis for the past few years, and those tend to be deflationary. The reason why we have not seen major deflation is because Central Banks have been pumping money.

      As for modern systems, there is a tension between independent Central Bankers who fear inflation verse politicians who like easy money. I can point to issues in recent years, but not in big mature countries.

      What I fear (though less than inflation) is a repeat of the 1950s and financial repression. Back then the governments had a lot of debt (from WWII), like today. They rigged the bond market so interest rates were low in relationship to government debt, thus inflating the debt away (This does not require high inflation, just the relationship).

      Bill Gross of Pimco has done some great blogs on this issue.

    3. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by oldlurker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I am an advocate of fiat money, but that is because I fear deflation more than inflation. (Well, my view is a bit more complex then that.)

      Most economists would agree with you on that (not sure if that in geek circles is taken as a compliment or not, but given as one, we tend to be far too dismissive of other expertise than our own)

      As for what you are saying, “years” is not the right answer. We have been in a finical crisis for the past few years, and those tend to be deflationary. The reason why we have not seen major deflation is because Central Banks have been pumping money.

      As for modern systems, there is a tension between independent Central Bankers who fear inflation verse politicians who like easy money. I can point to issues in recent years, but not in big mature countries.

      Indeed. And this tension is holding the balance. These are much more complex systems than most imagine, and we have developed a set of checks and balances that work. Soundbites about "feds printing money" doesn't really mean anything if you don't understand the model. And your point about the issues not being in big mature countries is my point as well. On the other hand bitocoins that some see as a better alternative loose 2/3rds of value overnight. You have you to be really idealistically theoretically motivated to compare that as equal or better.

      Thanks for blog references, will read, actually interested in the various sides of this topic.

    4. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Here is the link to his blog on Financial Repression. If is from 2011 but I think it is still valid.

      FYI, he co-founded PIMCO, one of the world’s largest bond fund managers. I think he is very good. I also like his New Normal one.

      http://www.pimco.com/EN/insights/pages/buycheapbondswithsafespread.aspx

    5. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by rolfwind · · Score: 2

      “Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero.” (Voltaire, 1694-1778)

    6. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Most economists would agree with you on that (not sure if that in geek circles is taken as a compliment or not, but given as one, we tend to be far too dismissive of other expertise than our own)

      It's hard to not be dismissive of economists when their supposed expertise seems to be good for nothing but having the economy limp from one crisis to another.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    7. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Which is why magic random bit sequences, with their loads of intrinsic value, are so much better!

    8. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      If I argued along those lines somewhere, let me know.

    9. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      If I said you were arguing along those lines somewhere, let me know :). I was just pointing out (relevantly to a thread about Bitcoin) that Voltaire's quote applies just as well to magic-bits money as magic-printed-notes money (with the exception that magic bits are even less useful for lighting a fire or wiping one's bum).

    10. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by amorsen · · Score: 1

      As for modern systems, there is a tension between independent Central Bankers who fear inflation verse politicians who like easy money. I can point to issues in recent years, but not in big mature countries.

      The silly thing is that right now it is the politicians who fear inflation... And they have stacked the decks at the central banks so that low inflation trumps all other goals.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    11. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah ? How about:

      It is hard not to be dismissive of engineers when all they care about is building stupidly expensive gadgets that entrap everyone into thinking they are doing something useful. Software engineers are the worst: they build buggy software and toy apps that are nothing but smoke and mirrors instead of helping solve the real world's problem. What value do they really create?

      See how it goes? With this attitude no one does anything useful: farmers, politician, army, police, doctors, scientists, marketing, finance, accounting people are all good for the bin. The saying goes that the economy needs economist the same way the weather needs meteorologists. This is true to some extent, but one forgets that one might be becoming better at economics or meteorology as time goes by and methods improve. This has and this will pay off.

    12. Re:US Currency on soft rolls of paper by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      I am an advocate of fiat money, but that is because I fear deflation more than inflation.

      I am not against it, but it all depends how the money is created. Currently, money is created through loans that bear interest. So effectively, we can only create money by reducing the total money supply in the end. Unless off course, we loan more and more, which will eventually collapse into a deep crisis with lots of defaults. Which is the current state. Also, a loan is "nothing". It is just a number that may represent the asset that you want the loan for, but for the bank it is just a number (and yes, they have to get another number from a central bank, but that is just a minor detail)

      I am not against the government printing money. On the contrary, I think the government (as a representative of society) should be the only one who can print money. But money should be printed "at a cost or value". So you do something for society, and society rewards you for it. Let's face it, humans are social animals (even if people think that is an insult on the other side of the pond). So we need a society with common things, like infrastructure and healthcare. If you reward people's contribution toward society with money, and the members of society can use that money among themselves, this money becomes its own "tax", and will therefore by very definition have value (the value of that contribution to society). In such a case (like the Japanese "care coin", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fureai_kippu), the money is used as the glue of society instead of the separating wedge it is used for today in western countries.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
  31. Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A use for this.

  32. And that is the problem with bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That miners want to make a profit, a fat one if possible. It would be like the US mint being a for profit organization. It isn't. Even republicans can see why not and that is saying something.

    Bitcoin mining was NOT meant as a profit generation scheme but as a way to keep the coins in relative limited supply, to avoid the "tree leaves for currency requiring the burning down of all the forests to control inflation" problem. Bitcoin was originally meant as a barter currency, where you kept the barter. You provided something to somebody for bitcoins and in turn you use them to barter for something else. The idea was to create an altnernate barter market seperate from established currencies. To however create a "secure" currency, where somebody couldn't just print a lot of fake bills, both the mining and transaction require serious computation. In order to get volunteers to do this, a small amount of bits coins are set aside as a reward for handling transactions and miners get the bitcoins they intoduce into the pool to barter with.

    BUT the original idea was that the mining would be a tiny amount compared to the flow of bitcoins. A bitcoin was supposed to be traded thousands of time before a new one was generated.

    But as always, greed took over. Mining bitcoins was being seen as the ability to mint money and so people did it. Bitcoins became about speculation, who could mine them the fastest, hoard the most and then exchange them for something with real value. The MORE people shout about how many dollars bitcoins are "worth" the more bitcoins loose their value as a barter currency. People don't seek to make a profit from trade through a new way to exchange currency but by speculating in the currency itself. It resembles the gold market a lot. Not the real one, the gold market that has vending machines with tiny gold bars inside, the kinda people that believe that if they got a tiny fortune in gold, when the apocalypse comes, they will be rich because EVERYONE will be wanting gold then... nothing like dealing the end of civiliation then a gold bar.

    Bitcoins as a paypal alternative for small traders makes some sense, keep some"value" in bitcoins as a user who sometimes buys and sometimes sells, avoid the traditional exchange fees. But for this to happen, the currency needs to be stable. It isn't and traders are either seeking to get bitcoins "cheap" and sell them high or just doing it as a novelty to create some press.

    Google for places that accept bitcoins. The trade is simply non-existent. Places that reached the news have stopped accepting them and the remaining online shops are the ones you would normally stay a million miles away from. Shady doesn't even begin to describe them.

    It was a nice idea but human greed and the lack of any counter measures have doomed it from the start.

    1. Re:And that is the problem with bitcoin by slart42 · · Score: 1

      Google for places that accept bitcoins. The trade is simply non-existent. Places that reached the news have stopped accepting them and the remaining online shops are the ones you would normally stay a million miles away from. Shady doesn't even begin to describe them.

      The argument of bitcoins not having any value because they are not being used for anything but speculation comes up every time bitcoins are discussed. I don't think it's true any more. Underground market places for drugs and other goods which require untraceable money transactions are thriving, and driving a lot of people into buying bitcoins to actually use them for trading, who don't care about speculation or anything. Are those sites shady? Yes. That does not make them any less real. If a large part of the worlds drug trade will use bitcoins for their transactions in the future, that would be a much more stable economy backing this currency than many goverment-backed currencies can claim.

  33. Re:But why? by lgw · · Score: 1

    What happened to Silk Road? I would have expected bitcoin to crash hard without the black market to spend them on, but I don't really follow either closely.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  34. 1FuckBTCqwBQexxs9jiuWTiZeoKfSo9Vyi by nweaver · · Score: 2

    Yes, send your unwanted bitcoins here: 1FuckBTCqwBQexxs9jiuWTiZeoKfSo9Vyi

    Overall, a general problem with BitCoin mining is that it is a classic "Red Queen's Race". The fixed rate of bitcoin addition means you can only get ahead at the cost of someone else. Which means, IF bitcoin succeeded, mining is effectively non-profit as the rather low barrier to entry (even ASIC rigs are only $2K) and no monopoly power means that the profit from mining gets, well, stripped out.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
  35. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to mention the whole stupid concept of "we need to waste $X worth on electricity to have ~$X worth of currency"... It's like spending valuable resources to mine gold only to have the bank lock it up forever in an underground vault---yes, smart that :-/

  36. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by lgw · · Score: 2

    There's a related problem here I think people are overlooking. Part of the appeal of bitcoin is it's decentralized nature - a government can't easily stop transfer of bitcoins between individuals. However, since mining is transaction processing, if it becomes only profitable to do transaction processing in the 3 biggest miner's datacenters, we're back to centralization and therefore easy government control.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  37. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't flash drives go bad reasonably quickly? I hope they have tons of copies on more flash drives.

  38. So a totally stupid question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. what exactly is bitcoin mining??? I understand its virtual currency thats bought and sold.. is mining them somehow obtaining them for free (other than the logisitics cost outlined in the article)???

    1. Re:So a totally stupid question by ThePeices · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      Think of it like finding a needle in a haystack ( assuming an average ordinary everyday haystack ). The haystacks get bigger over time ( way bigger ), but there are only so many needles, and you have to go through a *lot* of hay to find one. It costs time and energy to find the needles.

  39. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The audio recording industry has a non-sustainable business model, and they now claim customers are not buying a real product or service but simply acquiring a licence. Sounds like they are about two thirds of the way to being a pyramid scheme. They aren't promising any payment for enrolling others, at least yet. You could argue that pushers offer pyramid schemes, discounting drugs to get new 'members' to enroll as junkies, yet pushing heroin doesn't quite fit the pyramid scheme definition. Maybe what we need to focus on here is that it may take several forms of bad behavior to add up to a pyramid scheme, but having only some percentage of those features does not make something sound business, ethical, or often even legal.

    The audio recording industry most definitely have a sustainable business model that is in the process of being adopted, the growth of iTunes, Spotify and growing importance of concert revenue have proven that. They have been, and still are, kicking and screaming because of having to do cost-adjustments in their model, but that is very different. I lot of industries have gone through that, including computers.

    And you do need to read up on what a pyramid scheme really is, it is a very specific thing and not a collection of bad behaviors. It is also not really applicable to Bitcoin.

  40. 3 ways to make profit by SchroedingersCat · · Score: 1

    1. Be first 2. Be smarter 3. Cheat

  41. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's right - check out my pool on https://www.btcpoolman.com

  42. Rich will get richer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the rich will get richer and the poor won't have the resources to dig themselves out of the hole.

  43. Whoosh! by Dareth · · Score: 1

    Works on both ends. You could also use it to wipe the yolk/joke off your face.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  44. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could use fake money to buy gold and silver, or a plethora of other things.

  45. Bitcoin vs electricity by ThePeices · · Score: 2

    Since the biggest gripe on Slashdot seems to be the cost of electricity of running gaming rigs to mine bitcoins....hmm...i think i now have a use for that spare 160W solar panel ive got lying around, and all those Spartan6 FPGA development boards i happen to have sitting around consume very little power each....

    1) Idle equipment and free electricity
    2) Spare Time
    3) ????
    4) Profit

  46. Who has . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    any bitcoins left? Those with sense had been hoarding them and when they hit $250 . . . . well, let's just say they don't bother reading slashdot anymore.

  47. How to make a million Dollars with BitCoin by bkmoore · · Score: 1

    To make a million in BitCoin, simply invest ten million in equipment, electricity and time. Or save electricity ant time by giving me nine million in cash, and I will give you back 1 million worth of BitCoins... But the real question is when will we see the first Nigerian BitCoin scams.

  48. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by moeinvt · · Score: 1

    Do we have any real examples of a currency that constantly increases in value? Even if there was such a thing, why would people continue to hoard it as they observed the prices of goods and services dropping? Why wouldn't there still be a premium available for lending as opposed to hoarding?

    A currency which can be arbitrarily de-valued (like the P.O.S. USD) encourages MAL-investment and fuels speculative bubbles like we've seen in the U.S. economy. If the currency isn't a decent store of value, it ends up chasing returns haphazardly rather than funding productive investments. Bernanke has openly admitted that the goal of his monetary policy is to destroy the rate of return on safe investments and encourage speculation in equities. This is bad policy and it only highlights the idiocy of central planning.

  49. EVERY DAY BITCOIN NEWS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WEED BITCOINS EVERY DAY

    WEED WEED WEED bitcoins and more bitcoins

    News for potheads, news that matters.

  50. Re:Another bitcoin article? by moeinvt · · Score: 1

    Unlike a pyramid scheme, bitcoin does not require a constant stream of new investors to pay off the original investors, nor is there fraudulent misrepresentation involved in the sales.

    I don't know how "top" and "bottom" even apply to a decentralized system. People that attempted to make a quick buck by purchasing bitcoin as the exchange rate fluctuated might have gotten burned, but that's the risk you take by speculating in currencies.

  51. My blog post in this by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    http://deardiary.chalisque.org/more-tweets-on-economics-and-finance/

    Basically says it all.   One could dress it up as a serious research paper, but what's the point, it would only be a waste of a precious scarce and becoming scarcer resource (trees).

    --
    John_Chalisque
  52. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Silk Road is still online and thriving. However if they got shut down someone else would simply fill their place.

  53. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Speculating bitcoins is a pyramid scheme. Same as the stock market. The price bubbles and then corrects. And it hurts the people that actual want to use it as a currency since they have to live with the volatility.

  54. Ponzi scheme clawback by kent.dickey · · Score: 0

    My opinion is Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme. It's a complex one, so that it's not obvious. It's not even intended to be one, but that doesn't matter.

    Bitcoin will at some time reach the point where it makes no financial sense to mine Bitcoins at all (energy required will greatly exceed the mining return even for ASICs). Then, mining will collapse, but not stop because some people will still do it, such as botnets. As soon as Bitcoin mining rate becomes 50% of it's peak, Bitcoin is in trouble. Now Bitcoin become vulnerable to fraud since it's only secure if enough independent people are mining. So someone with lots of ASICs will attempt to grab all the Bitcoins by monopolizing the mining operation and putting in fake transactions to grab all the Bitcoins, and putting in enough mining power to dominate the network and push the fraudulent transactions. This will be hard, maybe even impossible to reverse, especially if it's done well. Then Bitcoin will crash. I'd love it if someone could estimate when this might happen--I'm not interested in Bitcoin enough to collect the data.

    Then everyone will scream, and call it a Ponzi scheme. And it will then appear to have been one.

    And Bernie Madoff has shown us that clawback has no statute of limitations--anyone who's ever taken any profit out of Bitcoin will be sued by the losers for all the profit. So then no one will have made any money. And you'll be dealing with courts. Anyone who made money with Bitcoin will lose all that they made, plus lawyer's fees. Even if it's 10 years from now.

    Only lawyers will do OK out of this. Sigh.

    1. Re:Ponzi scheme clawback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While all the other stuff you say may or may not be true (I think it is), that's not a Ponzi scheme.
      In fact bitcoin is the oposite of a ponzi scheme.
      In a Ponzi scheme you make money by getting more people in the scheme working for you.
      In bitcoin you make less money the more people are mining bitcoins.
      So it really is nothing like a ponzi scheme.

  55. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If everyone hoards the stuff instead of spending it, it becomes useless as a medium of exchange.

    Paradox detected. If it's becoming useless, then why would everyone hoard it?

  56. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why wouldn't there still be a premium available for lending as opposed to hoarding?

    How about I lend you this thing that's worth $100 today, but expected to be worth $200 tomorrow In exchange you bring me 2 of them tomorrow?

    Think you're going to take that deal?

  57. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even if there was such a thing, why would people continue to hoard it as they observed the prices of goods and services dropping?

    Because they know the goods and services will be even cheaper tomorrow. They'll hoard it as long as they can before they absolutely must spend the money. In the meantime, the money is just sitting around not doing anything, where it might have recirculated in the economy if it were invested instead.

    A currency which can be arbitrarily de-valued (like the P.O.S. USD) encourages MAL-investment

    An investment that doesn't provide a very good return is a "MAL-investment" from the perspective of the individual investor, but it still provides a benefit to society if it puts people to work and gets money circulating. Inflation aligns the rational interests of investors with those of society by making sitting on a pile of cash slightly less attractive.

  58. And as the last bitcoin is mined and registered... by Marrow · · Score: 1

    A computerized voice says "Thank you. Launch codes authenticated. Initiating Global Thermonuclear War. Have a nice day".

  59. Re:Deflation, numbnuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look, I think Bitcoins are a mentally deficient concept appealing only to fiat currency haters who don't really understand their own arguments

    Then you're more mentally deficient than you accuse those fiat-currency-haters of being, because there is obvious appeal in the concept of a digital equivalent of cash that has nothing to do with one's opinion of fiat currency. I for one would be perfectly happy to see a Bitcoin version of USD.

  60. USD in the 19th century! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The US Dollar increased in value during the 19th century almost continuously (except a few periods of devaluation like during the civil war). Not coincidentally this is also the period when the USA went from being a small agricultural colony to the greatest, richest industrial nation on earth.

  61. and the rent with room mates costs more then renti by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    and the rent with room mates costs more then renting on you own. Also renting on your own = private bathroom.

  62. The hysteria over deflation is a lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    First, I don't know if BTC itself is a good idea, however:

    Currency constantly decreasing in value doesn't encourage investment - it encourages wrong, unproductive investments to be made that otherwise wouldn't have been made (housing bubble, dot com bubble).

    And a currency gaining value doesn't cause hoarding, because you can't eat your money. You're not going to skip eating or filling your car with fuel because your money will buy more next year. You're not going to skip treating yourself to things you enjoy either. At the margin you may put off some conspicuous consumption in favor of savings - which is good. After all savings => capital => investment in more production, which means in the future more goods and services will exist for you to buy with your savings, thus raising your standard of living.

    BTW, the US Dollar experienced deflation almost continuously in the 19th century, exactly when the USA became the greatest industrial power in the world, and the largest increase in standards of living for the common man took place.

  63. Re:Another bitcoin article? by justthinkit · · Score: 1

    If bitcoins have been lost, can they be regenerated by someone else, effectively stealing them?

    --
    I come here for the love
  64. Re:Another bitcoin article? by reanjr · · Score: 1

    Perhaps. But they couldn't really cash out all their coins at a reasonable rate. The market cap is 21 million, so in order to dump anywhere near 5 million, you'd have to space it out to not crash the market before you can sell.

  65. Re:Another bitcoin article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does it not require a constant stream of "investors?" If nobody is willing to trade the coin, what is it worth?

  66. Not worth it for a single ATI 7970? by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

    I was considering one of these on a PC, the special circumstance though, my own PC in the office at work, just stealing their electricity.

    Yes I know, it's bad, I'm evil - understood, it's the wrong thing to do - however, beyond that, if I'm not paying electicity and I got a full PC with 7970 for say 350$ in total, I was hoping to pay the thing off within 3 or 4 months. Not viable?
    (Would be using a 3G/4G card for networking in low bandwidth mode, so not compromising the work network either)

  67. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  68. Early adopters make all the money by tehcyder · · Score: 1
    That's the basis of a pyramid selling or Ponzi scheme.

    But geeks think because they could get an advantage by having a super duper PC , that somehow it's legitimate.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  69. Money exists to allow economic activity to happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Economics is also entirely about resource management, and avoiding inefficiencies/resource-bottlenecks, where the most inflexible resource bottleneck is labour, because once you reach full employment you come close to the limits of economic activity, where it has to be increased by other means such as technological development.

    So, you need enough money to allow economic activity to reach its peak (i.e. for full employment to be reached), but not too much such that you're throwing money at resource-bottlenecks, because that is what causes inflation (inflation is pretty much all about resource bottlenecks, i.e. demand for a resource exceeding supply, or supply falling below demand).

    This means money can either prevent economic activity reaching its peak (by there not being enough, like we see now with significant unemployment), or money can try in vain to push economic activity past its peak (by there being too much, causing increasing inflation), OR, money can pin economic activity right at its peak and hold it there, providing stable full employment.

    To pin economic activity at its peak like this, you need control over the creation and destruction of money. Only fiat currency can do this, you can't do it with a gold standard or bitcoins; and in our current system, you can't do it with the debt-based i.e. private-bank-lent money which makes up 90+% of the money in todays economies, which ends up blowing and popping asset bubbles which generate unemployment (i.e. conditions less than peak economic activity).

    You need non-debt-based money (which doesn't suffer from unsustainable accumulation of debt + interest) to achieve peak economic activity like this, and the main source of this, would have to come from government spending (with the removal of money coming from taxation).

    Check out monetary reform online, particularly authors like Ellen Brown, David Graeber, and Post-Keynesians in general; you will learn a lot about economic realities, that even most economists today aren't aware of.

  70. Thank you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's gets tiresome to hear about solutions that only work if your parents or the dorms, or someone else is paying the bills.

    Setting up an electric car charging station will produce more reliable profits than bitcoins, if someone else is paying the electric bill.

  71. Sorry about my tone by ancientt · · Score: 1

    Sorry about my tone, you're right, it was condescending and I can be an asshole. If I'd realized I was replying to you I would have worked harder to be civil. I have seen your posts before and generally find them thoughtful enough to be worth considering whether I agree or not. I should have been paying attention to the person posting, you deserve more respectful responses than that.

    I'll try to be more respectful in my replies, which I'll be breaking down into smaller bites to make it easier on other readers.

    --
    B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
    1. Re:Sorry about my tone by ancientt · · Score: 1

      I said: The value of bitcoin has nothing to do with the ability to generate a bitcoin.
      You said: For every other product; If you increase supply and demand remains constant, the price of said item goes down. For your statement to be true, the laws of supply and demand wouldn't apply to bitcoins. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

      Fair enough. I'll concede that the value of a bitcoin is related to the ability to generate a bitcoin. The easier they are to come by, the lower the value will be as supply increases once demand reaches equilibrium with supply. However, reaching that equilibrium takes time and the desire to aquire bitcoin is still driving the value more than the supply. That's not what I was talking about though and why I said "bitcoin" (meaning the system) rather than "a bitcoin." The value of the system is about the use, not the individual coin. If 1000 bitcoins have the value of $0.01, it is just as useful as a system as if 1 bitcoin has a value of $1,000. This goes to many of your other arguments as well. Counterfeiting is a problem that isn't as simple for banks to get away with as you suggest, and various countries do engage in it and it does cause problems, potentially very big ones. (I work in the industry, I know whereof I speak but was indeed surprised to see your flat assertion that Iran has such a thing. I read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar and http://articles.latimes.com/1992-07-02/news/mn-1906_1_counterfeit-bills to see but didn't see conclusive information despite dire concerns about the impact on the value of the dollar, perhaps you have a better source?)

      --
      B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
  72. Interest, not supply, is the primary motivation by ancientt · · Score: 1

    Right now I can purchase real goods in exchange for bitcoin, not all from private, criminal nor insignificant parties. The links are not hard to find and it's far more pursuasive to let people find them for themselves than to list them, but for a starter, check https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/. Many businesses such as Paypal (so says Chief Executive John Donahoe said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal) are starting to work on methods of using them which is what is driving the speculation.

    See: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/04/30/could-paypal-be-on-horizon-for-bitcoin/

    --
    B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
  73. One is exponential, the other linear by ancientt · · Score: 1

    You said: Bitcoin production is exponential, not linear.
    Um, yeah, it gets exponentially more costly to produce a new one, but it doesn't get exponentially more difficult to trade them. Trading cost is linear, creation cost is exponentially more expensive. That's the built in scarcity that makes them valuable as a means of exchange. It doesn't give them inheirent value, it just gives the system value.

    If there were no more possible bitcoins that could be produced today, it would take a couple minutes to conclude a trade now, or a year from now or ten years from now. If you're talking about the growth of the records, where each bitcoin fragment is traceable to its origin, that's linear and insignificant in cost, particularly compared to the cost of traditional currency.

    --
    B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
  74. Speaking of traditional currency by ancientt · · Score: 1

    Speaking of traditonal currency, it is not solely electronic at any point, every electronic dollar has to have a physical equivalent, at least in the U.S. Banks periodically move big stacks of cash, bank notes, securities, etc around. Whether it is physically in the possession of the owner or not, each digital dollar has a single specific owner, excepting only the Federal Reserve. When people (at banks or anywhere else) get caught trying to spend dollars they don't have a legitimate ownership of, people go to jail. It is an even bigger deal for banks because they can't even claim ownership falsely without incuring big trouble, where individuals have to make very big claims (Madoff style) to get similar trouble.

    "Banks can actually create more money by simply changing a few rows in a database." is true only if you ignore that when caught by the Feds, people go to jail and made up money gets taken away along with hefty fines. The Feds are very, very touchy about that sort of thing. What banks can do is borrow money from the Fed, transfer through the Fed, or transfer to the Fed, but they have to send the money in some physical form to the Fed when they are settling up and can't claim to own money they owe to some other institution when they've allowed the other institution to claim the same ownership.

    That may be changing though. Canada is working on it: http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/spending_saving/2013/04/30/digital_cash_replacement_from_royal_canadian_mint_in_the_works.html

    --
    B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
  75. Anyone can make a bitcoin network by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    Just take the source, change the hash algorithm and organise a race to a fixed target, giving out prizes for successively close approximations, and using the computational work to secure the network.

    --
    John_Chalisque