UK Benefits Claimants Must Use Windows XP, IE6

First time accepted submitter carlypage3 writes "Benefits claimants in the UK are being forced to use Microsoft's now obsolete Windows XP and Internet Explorer 6 software. The Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) states that its online forms are not compatible with Internet Explorer 7, 8, 9 and 10, Safari, Google Chrome or Firefox. As if that wasn't unnerving enough, the Gov.UK website says that users cannot submit claims using Mac OS X or Linux operating systems, either." (Note: as we noted not long ago, it's not just the DWP that's stuck using IE6.)

Comments

Actually this is a good thing

[Ash Vince]

This actually makes perfect sense. On a modern PC it will involve the user learning about virtualisation (to run XP) and then also learning how to configure windows (to not run updates). This is great way of preparing dole claimants for an IT job so by the time you have gained enough skills to claim any dole money you have enough skills to go straight into a job as and IT support worker for the dole office and their crappy old IT systems.

Re:Actually this is a good thing

[amiga3D]

I don't know how their system works but years ago when sites demanded xp and ie for use I would tell my browser to lie to them. I set my user agent string to XP and IE although I was actually running linux with konqueror and 8 times out of 10 the site worked fine. Some I had to do from work since they actually used something specific to the systems they demanded.

Re: Actually this is a good thing

[mspohr]

All the grandmas I know have switched to tablets

Re:Actually this is a good thing

[tibit]

Where it doesn't work, some greasemonkey magic is all you need. Sometimes that magic is substantial (1000s of lines), but I've got sites that are IE-only by design and rely on IE APIs to work on both Safari and Firefox. I've even re-implemented some ActiveX controls using plain old javascript. Given the amount of effort (a couple weeks in the evenings) by someone who doesn't do such a thing very often, I think that the site developers should be publicly shamed. As in rotten tomatoes or eggs thrown at them in the middle of the city square, or something like that.

Re: Actually this is a good thing

[matria]

er... I'm a granny with 8 grandkids and I built my first PC over 20 years ago, the year before my first grandchild was born. Ran computer repair and small business/home networking shops in two states and two continents. Mac user now, although obliged to use a company-provided HP from time to time as well. Three Parallels VMs on the Mac for testing the websites I build. Also have a small smartphone; no tablet yet. Still haven't made up my mind which one to get.

Re: Actually this is a good thing

[b4dc0d3r]

I understand you take exception to this generalization because of your experience. Do you think you are representative of the granny population? Or are you an exception to the generalization?

Any blanket statement will have outliers, including this one, and I find it odd to find replies like these modded up - I'd rather see actual stats on how many grannies are tech savvy rather than a single anecdote with 3 people who also have mod points agreeing.

I honestly don't understand why....

[Red_Chaos1]

...we even still have this problem. Seriously, stop being short sighted fuckwits. Stop using vendor specific code. Start using shit that passes the W3C validator. Problem fucking solved. Imagine that! There is absolutely no excuse for any webpage out there to require a specific browser or browser version, short of being able to meet current web standards.

Re:I honestly don't understand why....

[Kjella]

Actually according to TFA it works with a few other browsers from the 2004 era, but only on Windows. The real summary here is "We haven't done anything to upgrade this system in the last 10 years" and the world moved on, which will happen from time to time. If it was 1990 it would be totally reasonable to ask for documents to be submitted in WordPerfect format, in 2013 it's not. If your maintenance budget is $0, this is eventually going to happen regardless.

Re:I honestly don't understand why....

[Joce640k]

It's because they all use 32-bit ActiveX controls and even if you're running a 32-bit version of Windows 7 (hardly anybody is) the permission system doesn't let you install them without a huge amount of esoteric messing around.

Remember back in the 1990's when we told Microsoft that ActiveX was a bad idea...? Yeah, about that.

PS: We have the exact same problem here in Spain. All the accountants, etc., pretty much have to use Windows XP if they want to get any work done.

Re:I honestly don't understand why....

[Opportunist]

Simple. It's because of how things run in public services.

They decided they need that kind of software. So someone, most likely someone with limited IT knowledge but a lot of knowledge of the process involved, sat down and wrote the specs. You may rest assured that it included everything this bureaucratic process needed, but lacked everything from the IT point of view, like compatibility with different browsers or the ability to upgrade and update to keep current with technical development.

The whole mess got into a public bidding and unless something important stood in the way (like, say, the nephew of someone important needing a job), the cheapest offer got called.

Now, these specs come with a catch: You can't simply amend them when you realize "Oh, gee, we should have...", no such luck. You open yourself to lawsuits from those that didn't get the contract, and since changes later invariably will increase the bill, their claim would be that they could have delivered for that price (especially if their offer was lower/better in some way). So even if you notice that something is missing, you DO NOT change those specs. EVER.

It's also near certain that they neither have the source code nor an agreement that the company doing the job agrees to hand over the details if someone else should get to update the system.

Re:I honestly don't understand why....

[smpoole7]

> Simple. It's because of how things run in public services.

Yes and no. Some of it is just that old Demon Money(tm) and the fact that we were in a protracted recession.

We were using a certain company for ad insertion on our Web streams. (Three radio stations total.) We were having trouble getting the software to work, so we contacted their help/support team. They used VNC to look at our system and said, "we only support Windows XP."

I sent them a rather nastily-worded letter. They claimed to be cutting edge, with the ability to sort and insert commercial content intelligently, and all other sorts of bells and whistles. And yet, I said, "you will only support a 10-year old operating system?"

They replied and allowed (as someone granting a great concession) that they would work with us, but could make no guarantees. We canceled the contract and went with another company.

In this case, it's simple: they hired someone to write the package several years ago, and wanted to re-sell the same package again and again. They didn't want to pay to update the software. So, they lost a lot of business. Assuming they're not bankrupt now, I hope they learned an important lesson. :)

Denmark used to have that issue as well

[MindPrison]

Not many years ago in Denmark, they had that issue as well.

Even with the banks you had to use IE(some version), otherwise you just couldn't pay your bills.
I'd say they did us a favor, because it taught a lot of people to get "off the system" instead of being dependent on it.

The narrower your choice as a citizen becomes, the more need for freedom you'll have (Geez, I might want to hold back on the booze, starting to sound like Yoda here)...;)

Hardly anyone affected by this

[lga]

Yes, it's crap that applying for these benefits requires ancient browser tech, but note that this is for three specific benefits which will affect hardly anyone. The most common of these benefits, Disability Living Allowance, is closed to new applicants because it has been replaced by Personal Independence Payments. And Attendance Allowance was long ago replaced by DLA, now replaced by PIP except for those over 65.

Re:Hardly anyone affected by this

[cardpuncher]

Attendance Allowance has not been replaced by DLA. AA is available to over 65's who need support in their daily living owing to illness or disability. It's a key benefit for elderly care. That said, the application process is lengthy and often requires supporting medical evidence so people tend to rely on charities such as Age UK to do it for them - I can't really believe that anyone would *want* to do this online.

As usual, total nonsense.

[gnasher719]

I went to the website using the Safari browser on MacOS X, and without any problems opened the PDF form (which supposedly cannot be opened), started filling it in, and printed it (to a PDF file to avoid wasting paper, but that's the same thing). So this works absolutely fine if you have a modern Mac running MacOS X 10.8 (I didn't try older versions), and you either have a printer, or you have the e-mail address of a friend who has a printer (on a Mac, the "Print" function lets you print to your own printer, to a PDF file, to a PDF file stored in "Web receipts" which is quite handy, or to a PDF file that is mailed somewhere). You put the paper into an envelope and mail it in. That's it. So if you want to get these benefits, there is absolutely no need to use Windows, Windows XP, or Internet Explorer 6.

Re:Use Firefox 1.0.3

[kthreadd]

oldversion.com

If you're going to download old Mozilla software, at least download it from Mozilla's FTP site where all versions are archived.
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/

Re:I agree, totally wrong

[Opportunist]

The short sighted conservative has spoken.

Allow me to ask you a question: What do you think would happen if we do what you suggest? You then have a lot of people who don't have a job, have no chance to get one, have no money and need it for food and shelter, or they die.

You have money.

Take a wild guess what happens next.

Re:No they aren't

[jedidiah]

...or someone who has modern machines in their local public library.

A system that requries IE6 in 2013 is a disgrace. It doesn't matter who is supposed to use it, or where, or how few people are actually expected to use it.

Your snark ignores the fact that this isn't just about Mac users. It's about ANY ONE that has a modern Windows configuration.

Re:Its okay ...

[gnasher719]

If you can afford a Mac, or a computer newer than XP, you don't need to be sucking off the public teat.

That, my friend, is total nonsense. This site is for people getting benefits for disabilities etc. For example, I have a well-paying job. With some bad luck, I might get some illness that makes it impossible for me to drive a car. If I can't drive to work, I can't drive to work and lose my job. The UK benefits system would (possibly) pay to have me driven to work. Which is a lot, lot cheaper because of the taxes that I would continue paying than paying me unemployment benefits. In other words, people with disabilities might be in good jobs and have plenty of money while still receiving benefits.

It's Seibel E-systems

[Animats]

The whole site is built on Siebel E-Systems, an old CRM system, which generates the pages. Seibel is more or less defunct, having been acquired by Oracle.

The code is spectacularly version-specific. The error messages in Javascript code on the site indicate how tightly coupled this code is to very specific quirks of older software:

• "The script debugging feature is typically automatically enabled by Microsoft Visual Studio products. To improve performance of the Web browser for use with Siebel employee applications, it is recommended to disable script debugging in the Internet Explorer browser."
• "To fix this manually, in Internet Explorer menu, choose Tools > Internet Options > Security. Then choose the %1 security zone and click on Custom Level. Change %2 to %3."
• "To fix this manually, in Internet Explorer, choose Tools > Internet Options > Advanced Options. Clear the %1 check box."
• "Failed to retrieve Internet Explorer version from this machine."
• "There are some recommended settings not set correctly. You may experience functionality or performance problems. Are you sure you want to continue?"
• "This is required for use of Message bar, CTI toolbar, Workflow designer, Personalization business rules designer, Smartscript designer, Org-chart designer, Sales Pipeline Charts and Marketing campaign designer and other features."
• "Scripting is required in HI framework to manage data only interactions with the server and to interact with the browser DOM, ActiveX controls and Java Applets etc,. In addition, the HI framework also supports browser scripting for data validations etc,."
• "One or more settings fixed requires the browser to be restarted. Please exit the Siebel application, launch a new browser and try to login to the Siebel application again."
• "Please install Sun Java Runtime Environment version %s or higher. The correct Sun Java Runtime Environment can be downloaded from >. After the installation is completed, please configure Sun Java Runtime Environment version %s or higher as the default for your browser. This is performed in the Java Plug-in Control Panel. Please contact your administrator if you need assistance."
• "Q314312 or above is required for environments using Input Method Editors for eastern languages only, (example: Japanese) on Internet Explorer 5.5. Microsoft makes this patch and related information available through their support organization and/or the following link: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;Q314312.";
• "Internet Explorer 5.5 Service Pack 2 is a prerequisite for Siebel 7 HI applications running for Internet Explorer 5.5 Microsoft makes this software and related information available through their support organization for customers with extended support contracts and makes additional information available at the following download location: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;enus;Q303201&ID=303201.";
• "Internet Explorer 6.0 Service Pack 1 or above is a prerequisite for Siebel 7 HI applications running on Internet Explorer 6.0.Microsoft makes this patch and related information available through their support organization or the following download location: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/downloads/critical/ie6sp1/default.asp. The "Windows Update" feature may provide this and other valuable updates to your browser environment."
• "The registry entry workaround described in Q823099 is a prerequisite for Siebel 7 HI applications running against SunOne Web servers using Siebel Web Server compression on Internet Explorer. Microsoft makes the workaround instructions available through their support organization or the following location: