Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

UK Benefits Claimants Must Use Windows XP, IE6

Posted by timothy on from the hot-commodity-on-craiglist-london dept.

First time accepted submitter carlypage3 writes "Benefits claimants in the UK are being forced to use Microsoft's now obsolete Windows XP and Internet Explorer 6 software. The Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) states that its online forms are not compatible with Internet Explorer 7, 8, 9 and 10, Safari, Google Chrome or Firefox. As if that wasn't unnerving enough, the Gov.UK website says that users cannot submit claims using Mac OS X or Linux operating systems, either." (Note: as we noted not long ago, it's not just the DWP that's stuck using IE6.)

42 of 230 comments (clear)

  1. Actually this is a good thing by Ash+Vince · · Score: 5, Funny

    This actually makes perfect sense. On a modern PC it will involve the user learning about virtualisation (to run XP) and then also learning how to configure windows (to not run updates). This is great way of preparing dole claimants for an IT job so by the time you have gained enough skills to claim any dole money you have enough skills to go straight into a job as and IT support worker for the dole office and their crappy old IT systems.

    --
    I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    1. Re:Actually this is a good thing by amiga3D · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know how their system works but years ago when sites demanded xp and ie for use I would tell my browser to lie to them. I set my user agent string to XP and IE although I was actually running linux with konqueror and 8 times out of 10 the site worked fine. Some I had to do from work since they actually used something specific to the systems they demanded.

    2. Re: Actually this is a good thing by mspohr · · Score: 5, Informative

      All the grandmas I know have switched to tablets

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    3. Re:Actually this is a good thing by tibit · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Where it doesn't work, some greasemonkey magic is all you need. Sometimes that magic is substantial (1000s of lines), but I've got sites that are IE-only by design and rely on IE APIs to work on both Safari and Firefox. I've even re-implemented some ActiveX controls using plain old javascript. Given the amount of effort (a couple weeks in the evenings) by someone who doesn't do such a thing very often, I think that the site developers should be publicly shamed. As in rotten tomatoes or eggs thrown at them in the middle of the city square, or something like that.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    4. Re: Actually this is a good thing by matria · · Score: 5, Informative

      er... I'm a granny with 8 grandkids and I built my first PC over 20 years ago, the year before my first grandchild was born. Ran computer repair and small business/home networking shops in two states and two continents. Mac user now, although obliged to use a company-provided HP from time to time as well. Three Parallels VMs on the Mac for testing the websites I build. Also have a small smartphone; no tablet yet. Still haven't made up my mind which one to get.

    5. Re: Actually this is a good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm a granny ... Mac user now

      It's OK if you're a granny, let's not be too harsh.

    6. Re: Actually this is a good thing by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I understand you take exception to this generalization because of your experience. Do you think you are representative of the granny population? Or are you an exception to the generalization?

      Any blanket statement will have outliers, including this one, and I find it odd to find replies like these modded up - I'd rather see actual stats on how many grannies are tech savvy rather than a single anecdote with 3 people who also have mod points agreeing.

  2. No they aren't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is just something they have put online, the old method of claiming by post or going to the office like always is still there.

    1. Re:No they aren't by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...or someone who has modern machines in their local public library.

      A system that requries IE6 in 2013 is a disgrace. It doesn't matter who is supposed to use it, or where, or how few people are actually expected to use it.

      Your snark ignores the fact that this isn't just about Mac users. It's about ANY ONE that has a modern Windows configuration.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  3. I honestly don't understand why.... by Red_Chaos1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...we even still have this problem. Seriously, stop being short sighted fuckwits. Stop using vendor specific code. Start using shit that passes the W3C validator. Problem fucking solved. Imagine that! There is absolutely no excuse for any webpage out there to require a specific browser or browser version, short of being able to meet current web standards.

    1. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually according to TFA it works with a few other browsers from the 2004 era, but only on Windows. The real summary here is "We haven't done anything to upgrade this system in the last 10 years" and the world moved on, which will happen from time to time. If it was 1990 it would be totally reasonable to ask for documents to be submitted in WordPerfect format, in 2013 it's not. If your maintenance budget is $0, this is eventually going to happen regardless.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by KiloByte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If your maintenance budget is $0, this is eventually going to happen regardless.

      They do have a maintenance budget, but any penny spent doing actual maintenance is a penny your cronies can't pocket.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    3. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's because they all use 32-bit ActiveX controls and even if you're running a 32-bit version of Windows 7 (hardly anybody is) the permission system doesn't let you install them without a huge amount of esoteric messing around.

      Remember back in the 1990's when we told Microsoft that ActiveX was a bad idea...? Yeah, about that.

      PS: We have the exact same problem here in Spain. All the accountants, etc., pretty much have to use Windows XP if they want to get any work done.

      --
      No sig today...
    4. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Simple. It's because of how things run in public services.

      They decided they need that kind of software. So someone, most likely someone with limited IT knowledge but a lot of knowledge of the process involved, sat down and wrote the specs. You may rest assured that it included everything this bureaucratic process needed, but lacked everything from the IT point of view, like compatibility with different browsers or the ability to upgrade and update to keep current with technical development.

      The whole mess got into a public bidding and unless something important stood in the way (like, say, the nephew of someone important needing a job), the cheapest offer got called.

      Now, these specs come with a catch: You can't simply amend them when you realize "Oh, gee, we should have...", no such luck. You open yourself to lawsuits from those that didn't get the contract, and since changes later invariably will increase the bill, their claim would be that they could have delivered for that price (especially if their offer was lower/better in some way). So even if you notice that something is missing, you DO NOT change those specs. EVER.

      It's also near certain that they neither have the source code nor an agreement that the company doing the job agrees to hand over the details if someone else should get to update the system.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by silviuc · · Score: 2

      Governments are subordinate agencies are and have always been fuckwits. Not because they are dumb but because bribe money goes a long way. They also don't employ IT techs, everything is out-sorced and every time they want some done they pay up more than it actually costs because it's a good way to make some money for themselves. Works in my shitty EU member country why wouldn't it work for the brits too.

    6. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by smpoole7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      > Simple. It's because of how things run in public services.

      Yes and no. Some of it is just that old Demon Money(tm) and the fact that we were in a protracted recession.

      We were using a certain company for ad insertion on our Web streams. (Three radio stations total.) We were having trouble getting the software to work, so we contacted their help/support team. They used VNC to look at our system and said, "we only support Windows XP."

      I sent them a rather nastily-worded letter. They claimed to be cutting edge, with the ability to sort and insert commercial content intelligently, and all other sorts of bells and whistles. And yet, I said, "you will only support a 10-year old operating system?"

      They replied and allowed (as someone granting a great concession) that they would work with us, but could make no guarantees. We canceled the contract and went with another company.

      In this case, it's simple: they hired someone to write the package several years ago, and wanted to re-sell the same package again and again. They didn't want to pay to update the software. So, they lost a lot of business. Assuming they're not bankrupt now, I hope they learned an important lesson. :)

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    7. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by Solandri · · Score: 2

      In this case, it's simple: they hired someone to write the package several years ago, and wanted to re-sell the same package again and again. They didn't want to pay to update the software. So, they lost a lot of business. Assuming they're not bankrupt now, I hope they learned an important lesson. :)

      That's partly OP's point.

      With private businesses, you have to accommodate the customer or you go out of business.
      With public services, your customers have to accommodate you or they won't get the service you're providing.

    8. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by HiThere · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, in 1990 it would be reasonable. There weren't any acceptable open standards. (On Linux I ended up doing my word processing in HTML with a text editor. Truely lousy.) These days there are several reasonable choices, but rtf is probably the most widely available. Most end users don't like to use markup languages, and few documents are worth the effort of Tex.

      I suppose you could say that in 1990 it would be better to just ask for text documents...but that wasn't very good either, if you needed special characters. And formatting text documents can be a real drag.

        (FWIW, I'm still not satisfied with OpenOffice indexing. I haven't checked the LibreOffice indexing recently, but from a glance it looked about the same. From my point of view the best word processor, except for a few major flaws, was MSWord 5.1a for the Macintosh. Everything since then has been inferior. This is largely because I really liked the markup I could use for indexing in that system, and it fixed a huge number of problems from earlier versions. Probably, of course, I've forgotten numerous bad features, but I really like being able to turn-on visible markup chars and add them in or edit them by hand, and then turn them off to see how it will appear.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    9. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by jeremyp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Works in my shitty EU member country why wouldn't it work for the brits too.

      Because, in British government, corruption of this type is pretty rare. I have worked with the UK government as a supplier on many IT contracts and I have never seen corruption like that. What I have seen is gross incompetence leading to wastage of tax payers' money on an almost unimaginable scale.

      My guess is (it is only a guess, I wasn't involved) that, in this case, the supplier told them it would cost more money to support the other browser (back in 2000 there was mostly IE and some Netscape and then just a tiny handful of weirdos running stuff like Mozilla) and it would have been pointed out that even the people with other browsers could fire up IE if they needed to, so I'm sure they just went with IE for cost reasons.

      having narrowed the supported platform down to IE, the chosen supplier would not have felt constrained to use only standards compliant features and that would have locked the DWP in to the one technology.

      Then there would be no money available to fix the UI because "everybody uses IE 6" until the point where the falsehood of that statement could not be denied and then the DWP would already be thinking about the shiny new system that ail be replacing that old system, so there would still be no money available. But the shiny new system was probably slated to arrive about now but has slipped by a couple of years due to incompetent management and so on.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    10. Re:I honestly don't understand why.... by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      Linux? 1990? Which distro?

      (and modded informative?)

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  4. Denmark used to have that issue as well by MindPrison · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not many years ago in Denmark, they had that issue as well.

    Even with the banks you had to use IE(some version), otherwise you just couldn't pay your bills.
    I'd say they did us a favor, because it taught a lot of people to get "off the system" instead of being dependent on it.

    The narrower your choice as a citizen becomes, the more need for freedom you'll have (Geez, I might want to hold back on the booze, starting to sound like Yoda here)...;)

    --
    What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
  5. Makes sense. by lxs · · Score: 2, Funny

    Clearly if you can afford a new computer or have the skills to run Linux, you should be able to fend for yourself.

  6. Hardly anyone affected by this by lga · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, it's crap that applying for these benefits requires ancient browser tech, but note that this is for three specific benefits which will affect hardly anyone. The most common of these benefits, Disability Living Allowance, is closed to new applicants because it has been replaced by Personal Independence Payments. And Attendance Allowance was long ago replaced by DLA, now replaced by PIP except for those over 65.

    --
    A latent existence
    1. Re:Hardly anyone affected by this by cardpuncher · · Score: 4, Informative

      Attendance Allowance has not been replaced by DLA. AA is available to over 65's who need support in their daily living owing to illness or disability. It's a key benefit for elderly care. That said, the application process is lengthy and often requires supporting medical evidence so people tend to rely on charities such as Age UK to do it for them - I can't really believe that anyone would *want* to do this online.

    2. Re: Hardly anyone affected by this by prefect42 · · Score: 2

      Also note that if you're blind, you may be applying for DLA via a website that, yes you guessed it, isn't accessible...

      --

      jh

  7. Re:2002 called. by SJHillman · · Score: 2

    Hanlon's Razor begs to differ.

  8. Claim it! by xushi · · Score: 2

    Can I claim the license for MS OS for me to be able to submit my claims ? I sure as hell wouldn't be able to afford to buy a new OS if I were visiting the benefits claim site ...!

  9. As usual, total nonsense. by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I went to the website using the Safari browser on MacOS X, and without any problems opened the PDF form (which supposedly cannot be opened), started filling it in, and printed it (to a PDF file to avoid wasting paper, but that's the same thing). So this works absolutely fine if you have a modern Mac running MacOS X 10.8 (I didn't try older versions), and you either have a printer, or you have the e-mail address of a friend who has a printer (on a Mac, the "Print" function lets you print to your own printer, to a PDF file, to a PDF file stored in "Web receipts" which is quite handy, or to a PDF file that is mailed somewhere). You put the paper into an envelope and mail it in. That's it. So if you want to get these benefits, there is absolutely no need to use Windows, Windows XP, or Internet Explorer 6.

  10. Antique website by Sesostris+III · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Being in the UK and working in IT, I actually for once RTFA and visited the site. To start with I must admit I was flabbergasted. However, looking at it more closely, it is clear that what we are looking at here is a web-site that was created when the latest OSes and web browsers just didn't exist. Clearly someone has thought to insert the statement that you may have problems with these later OSes and web-browsers, so the site content can be tweaked, but the actual site itself (and the underlying architecture) was probably written years ago and left unchanged.

    One give-away is that the site uses ASP (rather than ASP.NET). I doubt any new site has been written using ASP for over ten years! (ASP.NET came out in 2002).

    So there we have it, an antique, a living fossil. Enjoy it while it is still up.

    --
    You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
    1. Re:Antique website by Phrogman · · Score: 2

      If they do replace it all, I bet they opt for the top end HTML5 driven solution - resulting in a problem for those who don't have computers modern enough to run an HTML5 browser :P

      Just make your fucking websites using bog standard HTML forms, zero javascript and everyone can be happy except the designers who were hoping to charge extra for all the unnecessary bling enabled by javascript.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
  11. Re:Use Firefox 1.0.3 by kthreadd · · Score: 4, Informative

    oldversion.com

    If you're going to download old Mozilla software, at least download it from Mozilla's FTP site where all versions are archived.
    http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/

  12. Not forced to use XP by skine · · Score: 2

    There is still the option to send the forms by mail.

  13. Re:The contractor should be fired and billed by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, because you know, the people who are in need of benefits are known to be geeks, and love to learn new IT systems.

  14. or the other way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The corollary to Hanlon's razor is that stupidity and malice are indistinguishable -that's real life.

  15. Re:The contractor should be fired and billed by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    I'm quite certain that the one that should be fried is the person writing the specs. It's almost certain the contractor wrote to spec, and if they don't include something akin to "must run on all browsers", why should he bother doing it?

    Remember: When you're working for the government, deliver what is specified and NOTHING ELSE!

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  16. Re:I agree, totally wrong by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The short sighted conservative has spoken.

    Allow me to ask you a question: What do you think would happen if we do what you suggest? You then have a lot of people who don't have a job, have no chance to get one, have no money and need it for food and shelter, or they die.

    You have money.

    Take a wild guess what happens next.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  17. Re:Its okay ... by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you can afford a Mac, or a computer newer than XP, you don't need to be sucking off the public teat.

    That, my friend, is total nonsense. This site is for people getting benefits for disabilities etc. For example, I have a well-paying job. With some bad luck, I might get some illness that makes it impossible for me to drive a car. If I can't drive to work, I can't drive to work and lose my job. The UK benefits system would (possibly) pay to have me driven to work. Which is a lot, lot cheaper because of the taxes that I would continue paying than paying me unemployment benefits. In other words, people with disabilities might be in good jobs and have plenty of money while still receiving benefits.

  18. Re:The contractor should be fired and billed by Dogtanian · · Score: 2

    I'm quite certain that the one that should be fried is the person writing the specs.

    I know the system is crap, but that's a bit draconian... :-)

    Anyway, in all seriousness, this story is (intentionally) trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, as it relates to a small (and obsolescent) number of benefits and the fact that an old system hasn't been properly updated for the better part of a decade.

    Yes, it's utterly shite that the systems were written to be so specific to IE6 (and earlier versions') foibles that they don't even work with the half-decent later versions of IE, let alone any other browsers. Obviously if they hadn't been so short-sighted, they'd still be running (if somewhat dated looking) on modern browsers.

    And yes, it sucks if you're one of the people still wanting to claim those benefits.

    But it's a story about ancient software designed when IE-specific sites were still (unfortunately) the norm and a system that hasn't been updated for the few people still requiring it. I have to admit I thought at first that this was something about the JobCentre's system to track users' jobseeking using cookies only working on XP/IE6 or older, but it's nothing like that.

    It's a fair story, but not the geek outrage article it's presented as.

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  19. Re:I agree, totally wrong by bkmoore · · Score: 2

    Allow me to ask you a question: What do you think would happen if we do what you suggest?

    You're pretty much have the same situation as in Pakistan. Low taxes, everyone owns firearms, religion plays a strong role in society, drugs are legal, high military spending as a percentage of the GDP, etc. The question is how many Libertarians want to emigrate to Pakistan?

  20. Re:Google Glasses Problem by Faluzeer · · Score: 2

    Bollox, in the UK it perfectly legal to film anything or anyone in a public place.

    Indeed, however the mere fact that it is legal has not prevented the Police from arresting people for doing so, at least where filming the Police is concerned...

  21. It's Seibel E-systems by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    The whole site is built on Siebel E-Systems, an old CRM system, which generates the pages. Seibel is more or less defunct, having been acquired by Oracle.

    The code is spectacularly version-specific. The error messages in Javascript code on the site indicate how tightly coupled this code is to very specific quirks of older software:

    • "The script debugging feature is typically automatically enabled by Microsoft Visual Studio products. To improve performance of the Web browser for use with Siebel employee applications, it is recommended to disable script debugging in the Internet Explorer browser."
    • "To fix this manually, in Internet Explorer menu, choose Tools > Internet Options > Security. Then choose the %1 security zone and click on Custom Level. Change %2 to %3."
    • "To fix this manually, in Internet Explorer, choose Tools > Internet Options > Advanced Options. Clear the %1 check box."
    • "Failed to retrieve Internet Explorer version from this machine."
    • "There are some recommended settings not set correctly. You may experience functionality or performance problems. Are you sure you want to continue?"
    • "This is required for use of Message bar, CTI toolbar, Workflow designer, Personalization business rules designer, Smartscript designer, Org-chart designer, Sales Pipeline Charts and Marketing campaign designer and other features."
    • "Scripting is required in HI framework to manage data only interactions with the server and to interact with the browser DOM, ActiveX controls and Java Applets etc,. In addition, the HI framework also supports browser scripting for data validations etc,."
    • "One or more settings fixed requires the browser to be restarted. Please exit the Siebel application, launch a new browser and try to login to the Siebel application again."
    • "Please install Sun Java Runtime Environment version %s or higher. The correct Sun Java Runtime Environment can be downloaded from >. After the installation is completed, please configure Sun Java Runtime Environment version %s or higher as the default for your browser. This is performed in the Java Plug-in Control Panel. Please contact your administrator if you need assistance."
    • "Q314312 or above is required for environments using Input Method Editors for eastern languages only, (example: Japanese) on Internet Explorer 5.5. Microsoft makes this patch and related information available through their support organization and/or the following link: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;Q314312.";
    • "Internet Explorer 5.5 Service Pack 2 is a prerequisite for Siebel 7 HI applications running for Internet Explorer 5.5 Microsoft makes this software and related information available through their support organization for customers with extended support contracts and makes additional information available at the following download location: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;enus;Q303201&ID=303201.";
    • "Internet Explorer 6.0 Service Pack 1 or above is a prerequisite for Siebel 7 HI applications running on Internet Explorer 6.0.Microsoft makes this patch and related information available through their support organization or the following download location: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/downloads/critical/ie6sp1/default.asp. The "Windows Update" feature may provide this and other valuable updates to your browser environment."
    • "The registry entry workaround described in Q823099 is a prerequisite for Siebel 7 HI applications running against SunOne Web servers using Siebel Web Server compression on Internet Explorer. Microsoft makes the workaround instructions available through their support organization or the following location:
  22. The Inquirer steals from reddit. by 91degrees · · Score: 2

    Seriously, I saw this last week, before the Inquirer got their mitts on it. It was debunked in the first comment.