Tylenol May Ease Pain of Existential Distress, Social Rejection

Guppy writes "Does Tylenol reduce existential distress? Acetaminophen (Paracetamol) has been used to relieve mild-to-moderate physical pain for over a century, yet its actual mechanism of action continues to be debated; modern research has demonstrated an intriguing connection with the body's endocannabinoid system, raising the question of whether it may also have subtle psychological effects as well. A recent paper claims Acetaminophen can alter our response to existential challenge; previous findings have suggested that it may blunt the pain of social rejection as well."

Comments

I have become....

[longbot]

....comfortably numb!

Re:I have become....

[hoboroadie]

I prefer treating my cannabinoid receptors with less toxic chemicals, in case I ever want to use my liver for anything.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Acetaminophen is basically completely safe when taken in a normal dosage (i.e. what it says on the label), except for people with certain genetic conditions that interfere with normal metabolism of the drug.

Acetaminophen kills because it's an ingredient in so many over-the-counter and prescription drugs with different names and labels, and many people don't realize they're taking acetaminophen at all, let alone an overdose of it.

Re:I have become....

[Dorianny]

Most people know that taking too much Tylenol is dangerous but very few understand that McNeil, the company behind Tylenol, is just selling overpriced acetaminophen.

Re:I have become....

[symbolset]

The liver toxicity of Acetaminophen is used to deter opioid addiction by mixing opioids with Acetaminophen. Opioids are powerfully addictive narcotics and this practice kills about 500 Americans per year.

Re:I have become....

[hoboroadie]

I get queasy from Tylenol, maybe I don't have that immunity. All the rest of you, don't mix it with alcohol or take it for a hangover. The toxicity is cumulative. If your MD won't prescribe unadulterated opioids, get some oil of bergamot to take with it for the "grapefruit effect". It will metabolize two or three times as much therapeutic chemical and allow the proper relief without excessive toxicity.
I have migraines, and alternate between ergotamine tartrate and hydrocodone so that neither causes problems.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely false - the APAP is included in the opiate-based pain relievers to assist with pain relief. There are plenty of opiate pharmaceutical pills that have zero APAP in them. Sure, Percocets and Vicodins contain APAP, but the doctor can easily prescribe the exact same pill without the APAP, it's done quite often with cases involving chronic pain.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a risk of liver toxicity even below the FDA recommended daily limit of 4,000mg in patients taking medications containing Tylenol (APAP) multiple times a day for many days. They currently use Tylenol (APAP) as a kind of anti-abuse mechanism in many low-level Schedule II and III opioids like codeine/apap, hydrocodone/apap, and oxycodone/apap.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. It was added simply to control abuse. The common excuse being it works better on pain. Which it does not. As anyone who has had serious pain and used both apap opiates and non apap opiates could tell you. It does jack shit for pain for opiate levels of pain.

Same way we poison morning glory seeds so you can't get high off those you buy in the store. Coated with a fungicide. One of the few seeds we do that to strangely enough.

Or any number of other poisons we add to common drugs that can be abused.

It's quite common. easy to obtain drug can be abused? add poison.

We do it all the time. Many doctors and researchers will flat out tell you this as well. APAP was added to control abuse. Period.

Re:I have become....

[TapeCutter]

The link does not back up your claims, the 500 deaths is for ALL overdoses of Acetaminophen and it says nothing about mixing it with opioids to deter addiction. However they did do something similar during alcohol prohibition with lethal results, mixing formaldehyde (or something similar) to things such as methylated spirits, to deter alcoholics from drinking it. The practice killed thousands of people who's only crime was addiction to an illegal drug. Alcohol is also one of the very few recreational drugs where sudden withdrawal can actually kill you, as opposed to (say) heroin which merely makes you feel like you're dying.

Re:I have become....

[symbolset]

And if a doctor prescribes these medications without APAP a flag goes up and an audit team descends on him to put a stop to it.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but the annual death toll from mixing opioids with APAP is far higher than 500. It's just not reported as such. The financial costs of medical care for opioid addicts is far higher than that of cancer patients, as they may seek treatment for their pain several times a day from many different sources.

[citation needed: own experience] I used to be a travelling salesman in the Western US with an opioid addict for my boss. In addition to our actual work we stopped at three clinics a day in seven states on a regular route. He had Blue Cross, and every clinic gave him a 90-day script for hydrocodone at least, sometimes Percocet or Oxycontin. God only knows what that bill was like. We did this for over a year, and hit the same clinics every 90 days. The work was lucrative of course, or it could not support this. He wasn't "taking" his medication, he was "eating" it.

It was a fun gig, and as you might imagine morality was a situational thing. Not personally profitable though. Definitely an adventure. Never cared for the opioids myself, but the liquor flowed and we hit all the gentleman’s clubs with ready cash in hand.

I gave up when he needed to go into rehab and wanted me to do the work with a crackhead as my boss to fill in for him. Oxy freaks are one thing, but crackheads try to kill you, usually soon. His choice of the (we all knew it) crackhead to keep up the cashflow over me who didn't have these issues was the end. I got out.

On the way home I stopped and had a "relationship" with his wife. I'm not proud of that, but damn it was fun.

When I got home my own wife was knocked up with somebody else's kid. Karma.

He's dead now. Liver failure, not in any way associated with his 20 year opioid with APAP addiction so he doesn't count in that year's 500.

/AC for good and proper reasons. Hopefully the content will override the lack of provenance.

Re:I have become....

[hcs_$reboot]

Almost forgot how that Pink Floyd song is great. Back to our subject, it is remarkable how scientists will deeply analyze the slightest effects of known drugs, but, on the other hand, ignore the effects - at least as appreciable - of the everyday food, celery, carrot, parsley, rosemary etc... Instead of takings drugs, many could improve their daily by simply eating in a more balanced way, some more selected dishes.

Re:I have become....

[sFurbo]

. All the rest of you, don't mix it with alcohol or take it for a hangover. The toxicity is cumulative

From what I gather from the literature, you are right about the hangover, but wrong about the mixing with alcohol. The blood concentration of the toxic degradation product is lowered when paracetamol is taken with alcohol, probably due to the alcohol successfully competing with cytochrome P450 in the liver, in much the same way that alcohol can be used to treat methanol poisoning (though another enzyme is competed for here).

However, there seems to be no reason to not use inbuprofen or naproxen:

All NSAIDs are hazardous, but but some have higher toxicities than others. For occasional and long-term use, products like ibuprofen and naproxen are safer and as effective as other NSAIDs.

Except, of course, individual problems, like you mention with Tylenol.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they are mixed because said opioids are used as powerful pain killers in conjunction with Acetaminophen. It's not a conspiracy to kill a minority of drug addicts, it's a conspiracy to kill pain.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully due to the acetaminophen no one cares about those 500 people.

Re:I have become....

[Guppy]

From what I gather from the literature, you are right about the hangover, but wrong about the mixing with alcohol. The blood concentration of the toxic degradation product is lowered when paracetamol is taken with alcohol, probably due to the alcohol successfully competing with cytochrome P450 in the liver, in much the same way that alcohol can be used to treat methanol poisoning (though another enzyme is competed for here).

Stumbled upon a good review of the pharmacology of Acetaminophen-Alcohol interactions (from back in 2000). Apparently it's more complicated than I thought:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2014937/

The interactions between paracetamol and ethanol are complex and many questions remain to be answered. In animals, chronic administration of ethanol causes microsomal enzyme induction with increased toxic metabolic activation of paracetamol and enhanced hepatotoxicity. Conversely, the acute administration of ethanol inhibits the potentially toxic oxidative metabolism of paracetamol and protects against liver damage. This protective effect disappears when the ethanol is eliminated and the time interval between the intake of ethanol and paracetamol is critical.

Although the possibility that chronic alcoholics are at increased risk of paracetamol hepatotoxicity can by no means be excluded, the available evidence does not support claims for a major toxic interaction between ethanol and paracetamol in man.

In contrast to the findings in animals, chronic alcoholics do not produce abnormally increased amounts of the potentially toxic metabolite of paracetamol. There is only modest, short-lived induction of CYP2E1 in chronic alcoholics and it seems that other isoenzymes are primarily responsible for the metabolic activation of paracetamol in man. In keeping with the metabolic data, there is no convincing clinical evidence to support the claims that chronic alcoholics are at increased risk of liver damage either following overdosage of paracetamol or with its therapeutic use. Such evidence as exists is purely anecdotal and similar toxicity has been reported in both circumstances in patients who are not alcoholic.

I would caution though, that while normal humans have an enormous amount of extra functional reserve in their livers, this may not be true for chronic alcohol users. Even if the absolute pharmacological toxicity is identical (or even modestly lessened), the same overdose that a non-alcoholic recovers from, could be fatal to someone with pre-existing damage. In addition, the cognitive and psychological impairment produced by alcohol could make both accidental and deliberate mis-use of other drugs more likely.

Re:I have become....

[andy16666]

Kills 500 Americans per year, you say? I think we could all do with fewer Americans. Any way we could beef up that figure?

Re:I have become....

[Zaatxe]

[...] in case I ever want to use my liver for anything.

Like alcohol?

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like the makings for the next big hit series on Showtime!

Re:I have become....

[Mike Frett]

Yes it's safe, but you have to understand, people generally tend to self-medicate rather than go to an actual Doctor. This leads to overdoses and over-the-top news stories. The Maximum safe daily dosage is 2000mg, but it's recommended that no more than 1500mg daily be consumed. Since this is meant for Pain relief, and the state of affairs in the United Stated is all out war on any Opium based Medication; people fall back to things such as Tylenol and tend to take more than they should.

There have been study after study about how many people are walking around with Moderate-Severe pain whom self-medicate on anything from Tylenol to Heroin simply because Doctors are afraid to treat even Cancer patients because of the DEA's unnecessary War. People who really need help shouldn't have to be afraid of going to a Doctor.

Re:I have become....

[Rob the Bold]

The liver toxicity of Acetaminophen is used to deter opioid addiction by mixing opioids with Acetaminophen. Opioids are powerfully addictive narcotics and this practice kills about 500 Americans per year.

This isn't like spiking rubbing alcohol with methanol and other toxins. The opiods really do increase the pain relieving properties of the acetaminophen greatly. Unfortunately, the opiods are, as you say, addictive narcotics. But unlike how you interpret it, the practice actually increases narcotic addition rather than deterring it. Patients end up abusing the drugs that their own doctors gave them. Doctors don't really have that many better options for serious pain, and many don't really do a good job at preventing addiction. Patients aren't deterred by the acetaminophen toxicity when they beg their doctors for "Vike" or Percoset or Oxycontin refills because withdrawal is painful and unpleasant.

If the acetaminophen were really put in to "poison" the opiods, then it's doing an absolutely terrible job. It doesn't kill all that quickly, it doesn't make people violently ill. I think I'd have to call it the second-worst conspiracy I ever saw.

Re:I have become....

[skids]

While carrots and APAP are both in common use by the populance, carrots do
not provide instant relief from sudden onset of pain. When you burn yourself
with hot grits, you can either stand there and think "you know, if I had eaten
carrots instead then maybe I'd be in a better mood about burning myself with
hot grits" Or you can take a pain reliever.

So we need pain relievers, not just carrots.

Carrots also do not do another thing: kill you if you eat too much, with "too
much" being something you could get down in a single swallow, or gradually
take over the course of a day without any stomach cramps to let you know
you are doing something fatal. Carrots don't kill people or cause intractable
medical expenses when used improperly, barring some rather deviant
practices (sometimes involving hot grits as well).

As such, it's very important to understand the reasons why a person might
use these substances, so that we can educate the public about which
substances to use under what conditions. If APAP can help a person avoid
using a more damaging or addictive psycoactive phrametceutical, but
has to be used with care, we need to know that.

Anyway, scientists study diet just fine. They are even finally getting around
to studying intestinal flora in better detail. Of course there is a funding
bias when big pharma levels of money are involved, but that's just capitalism
and greed doing its usual damage when we fail to set good boundaries for it.

Re:I have become....

[AndroSyn]

We do the same with alcohol as well, it's called "denatured" alcohol aka poisoned with methyl alcohol or something equally as toxic. We do it for even a more sinister purpose than abuse control, tax revenue.

Re:I have become....

[Princeofcups]

Wrong. It was added simply to control abuse.

Which is why there are no other options. From Wiki:

Hydrocodone/ibuprofen (Vicoprofen)
Oxycodone/paracetamol (Percocet)
Oxycodone/aspirin (Percodan)
Oxycodone/naloxone (Targin)
Morphine/naltrexone (Embeda)
Fentanyl/fluanisone (Hypnorm)

Paranoid much?

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

His alternative is not toxic, ni any dose. And has been tested by mankind for at least 5000 years.

Re:I have become....

[Slashdot Parent]

Commenting to undo my upmod. Read your sig.

Re:I have become....

[tragedy]

Commenting because I found your post hilarious. So, despite agreeing with the GP poster enough to upmod them, you later realized that they held political opinions that don't agree with yours, so you acted to remove the mod... and posted in the thread not only to remove the mod, but to bitterly announce your disapproval of their signature. It makes you sound just a teensy bit uptight. Especially since the sig doesn't seem to say anything except that they prefer one of the two main US political parties above the other, but hate both.

Re:I have become....

[tragedy]

The opiods really do increase the pain relieving properties of the acetaminophen greatly.

I think the point was that the opiods handle pain relief so effectively that the acetaminophen in the mix effectively does nothing except provide a health hazard.

Re:I have become....

[Slashdot Parent]

It makes you sound just a teensy bit uptight.

I've been accused of worse.

Anyway, after reading the sig, I no longer found the post to be insightful enough to merit an insightful mod from me. Surely other people with mod points will reach their own conclusions. It's not like I downmodded him or something, which would have been completely obnoxious.

Re:I have become....

[tragedy]

But the part that you read to begin with and gave a mod to was on-topic for the thread and generally for the whole article. Sigs, except in rare cases, aren't relevant to the discussion at hand. Basically, you're saying that you changed your opinion of whether or not what the poster wrote was relevant and useful based on his unrelated opinions. It's your right to do so, by all means, but I find it a bit funny. I have to find it funny, you see, because otherwise I look at it as a sad and accurate example of typical human nature. Then I just get depressed.

Re:I have become....

[Slashdot Parent]

Well, it was not my intention to depress anybody. It's just slashdot, after all. I sincerely hope that you are able to settle on "funny" because otherwise, I fear that you might potentially be taking the Internet a little too seriously.

Question: Let's say you were reading a post that you found to be insightful, but at the end, it said, "I hate tragedy (27079)". Would you mod it up? If you had already modded it up, would you undo it?

I guess at this point you're really obligated to say that you'd accept the sig in good humor, so I won't await an answer. I'll just leave this one to you as a rhetorical exercise.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

Methylated spirits is ethanol with methanol added. There's no need to add formaldehyde make it toxic, methanol is (or rather, its metabolites are) toxic all by itself -- the thing is, if there's enough ethanol in that mix, the liver will preferentially metabolize that instead of the methanol. (Emergency first aid for methanol ingestion is to drink something with lots of ethanol to the point of drunkeness, ie to the the point where your liver is no longer metabolizing the ethanol and it's building up in your bloodstream, in which case the methanol is also still in the blood, and getting filtered out by your kidneys.)

The point isn't really to deter people from drinking it (well, it is, but not for that reason), but to allow industrial-use ethanol to be sold without the exorbitant taxes we put on recreational-use ethanol. If people can't drink it, it's not taxed.

Re:I have become....

[jellomizer]

I remember a while back about some studies that shows anxiety can often be reduced with normal antacid. Because we get butterflies in our stomach when we get anxious, and that feeling increases our anxiety, so the antacid help break the cycle.

So it would make sense that a emotional distress causes a physical reaction that creates body pain, when then feedback on itself to create more emotional stress, and pain killers such as Tylenol may help ease those pains as well.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

When's the movie coming out? You should sell the rights to that story. I'm impressed.

Re:I have become....

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer - if for some reason one must take acetaminophen - is to add n-acetyl cysteine, available as an OTC dietary supplement. It also happens to be the antidote for acetaminophen toxicity. What happens in acetaminophen overdose is the liver's stock of glutathione becomes depleted and a toxic metabolic intermediate of acetaminophen accumulates and destroys the liver; NAC rapidly replenishes glutathione levels, stopping the damage from progressing.

To my mind, the most sensible thing we could do would be to require NAC to be added to any product containing acetaminophen in a fixed ratio (not sure what that should be) - enough to prevent severe liver damage in at least most cases.

A related issue that many people seem unaware of is that people with HIV should be extremely wary of acetaminophen, as HIV infection tends to drag down the body's glutathione stores (glutathione is also important to the immune system) - making such a person vulnerable to liver damage from acetaminophen even at a normally acceptable dose.

Re:I have become....

[ComputerPhreak]

You do realize both naloxone and naltrexone are opioid antagonists and that their sole purpose is to deter abuse when paired with an opioid? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine/naltrexone "Embeda is formulated with morphine pellets and has an inner core containing naltrexone. The purpose of this formulation is to prevent people from crushing the tablet for intranasal administration or from injecting themselves. If it is crushed, the naltrexone would mix with the morphine and naltrexone would competitively antagonize the effects of morphine in the body. The inner core containing naltrexone is formulated so that if ingested orally, the core encapsulating the naltrexone would not be digested by the gastrointestinal tract."

Re:I have become....

[tragedy]

I don't actually do a whole lot of modding. That may make me a bad Slashcitizen. Unless I come across something that's clearly been modded unfairly, I will generally post into a discussion rather than mod. Whether I take it in good humour or not, however, I've known myself to agree, and say so, with people despite bitter words that may have passed. Suddenly changing your opinion of what you considered to be a good argument because you spotted a sig that changed your opinion of the poster seems to me to be, as you say, taking the Internet a little too seriously.

The depression I was talking about was over the apparent human tendency to split up into sides by region, language, political affiliation, devotion to particular sports teams, etc. then hate the other side and all their works and deeds regardless of what they happen to be. If someone is part of a different group, their opinions are wrong, their foibles are proof of their monstrous nature, while the same issues are forgiven in own group members. They aren't even truly capable of things like loving their children. That's how humans often seem to think, and it seems to be so automatic.

Re:I have become....

[Slashdot Parent]

Aha. So you probably also thought that his signature was crass and undeserving of a reward, no?

Re:I have become....

[tragedy]

It didn't seem particularly crass. Frankly, to me it's just a mild typical opinion. Even if it had been what I consider crass, I would like to think that I wouldn't have considered it when evaluating the actual content of his post.

Re:I have become....

[hoboroadie]

I would caution though, that while normal humans have an enormous amount of extra functional reserve in their livers, this may not be true for chronic alcohol users. Even if the absolute pharmacological toxicity is identical (or even modestly lessened), the same overdose that a non-alcoholic recovers from, could be fatal to someone with pre-existing damage. In addition, the cognitive and psychological impairment produced by alcohol could make both accidental and deliberate mis-use of other drugs more likely.

Proper prophylactic treatment of existential troubles with cannabinoids can generally preclude manifestation of pain or want of opioids, nsaids, or alcohol, with all attendant toxicicity.

Bah

[Anonymous Coward]

If it does not have Hydrocodone in it I don't want it.

Re:Bah

[symbolset]

It's not the Hydrocodone in it that will kill you. It's the Tylenol.

Re:Bah

[Lumpy]

Hydrocodine is for pussies...

Pethidine all the way!

To hell with killing pain, just make me not care about it.

Re:Bah

[Anonymous Coward]

You must feel the same way about spelling checkers.

Re:Bah

[Lumpy]

"You must feel the same way about spelling checkers."

As much as you hate grammar.

Re:Bah

[cellocgw]

"You must feel the same way about spelling checkers."

As much as you hate grammar.

Yeah, it should have read "You must feel the same way about spelling 'checkers' ."

Related to OD's?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've known a few women who have repeatedly OD'd on tylenol.. apparently its rather common, but not usually fatal. They have struggled with their self-image, usually from past abuse; however this makes me wonder if the drive towards using that particular drug may not be as assumed: a suicide attempt using an easily available product, but rather being a self medicating drive gone awry due to the psychological effects of acetaminophen mentioned.

Re:Related to OD's?

[symbolset]

If somebody really wants to kill themselves with chemicals, table salt will do.

Re:Related to OD's?

[Anonymous Coward]

Both acetaminophen and alcohol are filtered by the liver... does that contribute to the propensity of overdose?

Re:Related to OD's?

[flyingfsck]

You can even OD on water if you try hard enough.

Re:Related to OD's?

[symbolset]

Yes, Hydriotic acid is toxic in sufficient concentrations.

Re:Related to OD's?

[hedwards]

Most likely the easy availability of acetaminophen is what contributes to it's use for suicide attempts. That and the poor understanding of what it actually does in large concentrations. Because of the damage it does to the liver, it can destroy the liver even in cases where people manage to survive the OD and ultimately kill later on if there isn't a liver available for transplant.

I still don't understand why acetaminophen is legal for sale, given the danger and the fact that it doesn't seem to do crap for pain. I'm guessing the reason for this result is the same as the alleged result for pain, that it's just a big fat placebo.

Re:Related to OD's?

[justthinkit]

Not sure if you were trying to refer to water with "Hydriotic acid". There is a Hydriodic acid, this being Hydrogen Iodide ( HI ). I would not want to be consuming this.

At the bottom of that wiki page is a reference to the use of HI in the manufacture of meth. Perhaps this was the "too much will kill you" that you hinted at.

Anyway, an interesting diversion reading that page. HI is ultra soluble in water: "One liter of water will dissolve 425 liters of HI". Officially blew my chem. eng. mind that did.

Re:Related to OD's?

[Fallout2man]

It's not really the water you die of so much though but rather the lack of sodium in relation to the water.

Existential Problems? Asked the Dr.

[Cryacin]

Take 36 Tylenol and see me in the morning.

Re:Existential Problems? Asked the Dr.

[TapeCutter]

Back in my day it was tea and two cups of Bex.

Re:Existential Problems? Asked the Dr.

[GumphMaster]

Ahhh, the good ol' days ... A cup of tea, a Bex, and a good lie down :)

Re:Existential Problems? Asked the Dr.

[Anonymous Coward]

Existential crisis solved. That much Tylenol will probably kill you.

Re:Existential Problems? Asked the Dr.

[skids]

Except it will leave you a walking dead man for a couple of days while your body tries to live without a functional liver, and doctors cannot do a thing about it. So that probably would be an even worse existential crisis.

Better article on MedicalExpress

[Dorianny]

There is a more in-depth article, titled "Experiencing existential dread? Tylenol may do the trick" and dated April 16, on the medicalexpress website. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-04-experiencing-existential-dread-tylenol.html

Related to OD's

[Anonymous Coward]

reposting: I have known a few women who have repeatedly OD'd on acetaminophen. They had a sad history that left them having low self esteem. This makes me wonder if their drive to use that particular drug was a self medication attempt in stupid large doses, due to these effects mentioned, rather than a genuine suicide attempt, since its apparently not usually fatal... Either way the intent was to make the emotional pain stop.

Re:Related to OD's

[Anonymous Coward]

Odd. I don't know any. Maybe it's you?

Worthlessness

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps I'm in a bit of a minority here, but I find the worthlessness and insignificance of my existence rather pleasant. With a lack of absolute meaning, its easy to justify enjoying life. You have inbuilt systems for incentives, do what makes them active. Its what you would do anyway, but theres really no need to make up excuses. Understand how you think, and what you are. Its pretty easy if you study a bit of psychology and evolution, and spend a good portion of your time on introspection. Sure, a drug might help you ignore the 'problem', but there really isn't an issue there at all.

Re:Worthlessness

[Samantha Wright]

As a biologist, as long as one of those incentivization systems is participating in the well-being of society, you've got my vote. (Void where prohibited, or made redundant by religion.)

Re:Worthlessness

[hoboroadie]

I think geologically, I wish I could laugh it off like George Carlin, but biospheric annihilation just doesn't amuse me that much.

Re:Worthlessness

[sincewhen]

You came from nothing, you'll go back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!

Re:Worthlessness

[skids]

...unless you come from nothing again, and realize the mess you left behind is yours to deal with.

Re:Worthlessness

[Anonymous Coward]

As a biologist, as long as one of those incentivization systems is participating in the well-being of society, you've got my vote. (Void where prohibited, or made redundant by religion.)

As a non-psychopath, empathy tends to keep me from being too destructive. Greed+capitalism and the threat of criminal punishment is suppose keep people like me useful, but I doubt those are the reasons why I act like a member of a social species. Maybe all those generations evolving as a social species was useful for something.

While psychopathy is pretty neat (you get some extra rationality, which I value highly), its really nice to have empathy. There are a lot of really easy empathy based exploits for producing novel stimulus and happiness. There're whole genera dedicated to it; I would have never enjoyed Clannad I were a psychopath but it does make we wonder what a psychopath would think of Shigofumi though.

Re:Worthlessness

[Anonymous Coward]

If everything is nothing than nothing is everything.

Re:Worthlessness

[Samantha Wright]

Empathy is a good mechanism for that, yes—although most people also do experience a sense of social responsibility that goes beyond mere empathy. (Let's agree to not call this the super-ego, because that's a neurologically outdated concept.) I bring this up because in the GGP's "being insignificant is great" model, it's easy to think that your actions are irrelevant and not merely insignificant in a large enough social group. When everyone thinks like that, the world goes to hell.

Also, a nit for picking you may find interesting: rationality != cold logic. Emotions are important mechanisms for telling us when we're contributing, in danger, trustworthy, and other things, and the most rational thinkers are those who are aware of their emotions and can side-step them; if you don't have them in the first place, or are missing certain emotions, you are more likely to lose a grounded frame of reference and behave psychotically. In statistical terms, they're regularizers.

When the idea of reason was first introduced in the Renaissance, it was considered irrational to ignore your emotions, too, not just to be blinded by them.

forgot the footnote

[Black Parrot]

"Works best when washed down with a bottle of Vodka."

Re:forgot the footnote

[Anonymous Coward]

not good to even joke about this....do not take tylenol with alcohol....liver destruction can result.

What's mild to moderate?

[garyoa1]

Never worked for me. For anything. If you can tolerate aspirin there's no contest. Excedrin will kill a headache in 10 minutes for me. Tylenol... about 10 weeks.
On the other hand, it will help with pain. If I take the whole bottle. With all the nausea and vomiting from an overdose I never notice the pain I took it for.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[RussR42]

From Wikipedia:

Excedrin is an over-the-counter headache pain reliever, typically in the form of tablets or caplets. It contains acetaminophen (paracetamol), aspirin, and caffeine.

Maybe you should just buy a cheap bottle of generic aspirin instead of a brand name product that contains an ingredient you don't want and a touch of caffeine (readily available from all kinds of sources)

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll find the method of ingestion effects things here (though I'm kind of the same, preferring ibuprofen & aspirin over paracetamol). If you want fast relief, use a liquid tablet first (faster action, shorter lasting), then switch to caplets (longer onset, longer lasting).

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[prionic6]

I'd say acetaminophen on its own is not the best medicine for a headache - doesn't work for me very well, either. The comination with aspirin and coffein (i.e. Excedrin) is actually the recommended medicine for a "tension headache". I respond very well to Ibuprofen (does that have a weird US marketing name, too?).

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they wrote exactly what they meant.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[prionic6]

While combination medicines are normally frowned upon, this particular one is actually more effective than either asprin or paracetamol alone in an equivalent dose, especially for stronger pain.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[drinkypoo]

Tylenol used to work for me when I was a kid, but now it doesn't. Orudis KT was the best, but they took it off the market. I use Naproxen Sodium now, which works OK but not as well as Orudis did.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's they? Was it was some kind of collaborative post?

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Motrin.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an artificial knee, femur, hip ball and socket; the only things that have ever even come close to reducing my chronic pain are opioids and naproxen. Nothing else. Don't know why, but Aleve actually did have a noticeable effect on my pain levels.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[maxwell demon]

Maybe you should just buy a cheap bottle of generic aspirin instead of a brand name product

Aspirin is a brand name. The substance is acetylsalicylic acid.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Millions of people swear by the magic formula of excedrin over any generic versions. Even tho there's nothing special about it.

The placebo effect is a powerful thing.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[drawfour]

Depends on which country you reside. Aspirin is a brand name associated with Bayer, but aspirin is a generic name as well, in the United State, United Kingdom, and some other countries.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Yaotzin]

Aspirin is actually used as the generic name in the US (and Canada?) from what I understand. It's certainly easier to read and remember, but doesn't say anything about the structure of the molecule.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you were suffering from caffeine withdrawal. Panadol works fine on minor headaches in 10-15mins.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because most "tension headaches" are really just caffeine withdrawal symptoms, a caffeine pill or a strong coffee plus any minor analgesic would work just as well.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

doesn't say anything about the structure of the molecule.

That's okay; neither does water.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. I don't drink coffee and I get tension headaches.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[volkerdi]

Aspirin is actually used as the generic name in the US (and Canada?) from what I understand. It's certainly easier to read and remember, but doesn't say anything about the structure of the molecule.

Neither does acetylsalicylic acid. The IUPAC name is needed for that, which is 2-acetoxybenzoic acid.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Mashiki]

Maybe you should just buy a cheap bottle of generic aspirin...

I suffer from chronic migraines(upwards of 20/mo) with cluster headaches(near daily), aspirin is great stuff, as long as your stomach can handle it, along with the rest of your GI tract. Very hard on your stomach though, especially if you've been taking it for awhile. For a long time, my main anti-migraine breaker was tencal c 1/2 30mg , or a double totaling 60mg. Now for those that don't want to read the link, caffeine+barbiturates(butalbital)+codeine does wonder, especially with a massive dose of aspirin(330mg). Sadly my stomach can't take it anymore, and I'm on tramadol HCL.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[sFurbo]

acetylsalicylic acid does say SOMETHING about the structure for the molecule. With just that, you can draw up half the atoms (assuming that acid refers to carboxylic acid, which is not that risky a bet).

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to look into this paper on LSA and similar substances if you want so stop abusing your body. At least for me, HWBR seeds stopped the cycles, and while it's not typical, I haven't needed any maintenance since the first treatments (most do periodically, however). Check out clusterbusters.com for more information.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[Lumpy]

Want to kill that headache faster? Aspirin + a cup of coffee. Caffeine will turbocharge aspirin.

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[garyoa1]

And caffeine is in Excedrin. :)

Re:What's mild to moderate?

[omnichad]

No, they is a commonly-use gender neutral singular pronoun. It's not a great choice, but it's better than dumb-sounding invented words.

Okay

[93 Escort Wagon]

Is there anybody In there? Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone home?

Re:Okay

[Internetuser1248]

Can you stand up? I do believe it's working. Why would we want to numb existential distress? This emotion is a social corrective mechanism that tells us when society is moving in the wrong direction. The reason it is becoming more of a problem in modern times is because our society is profoundly ill and we perceive that on some level. In the same way physical pain makes one pull one's hand out of the fire, existential stress makes one reevaluate one's life and look at ways it could be made more meaningful and more fulfilling. Why don't we just make a drug to cure ambition, sexual desire and distress of the conscience while while we are at it and wreck the human race for good?

Re:Okay

[TapeCutter]

So, which one is Pink?

Re:Okay

[flyingfsck]

The one with no chest hair and nicks all over...

Re:Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

The blue one.

Re:Okay

[YttriumOxide]

Sorry for the off-topic post, but as you don't make an email address public, I can't contact you any other way.

I'm currently writing a book (non-fiction) on the topic of self-discovery using psychedelics (specifically LSD) and would like to paraphrase your comment. I'd be happy to give attribution or not, as you'd prefer.

Specifically the context will be the discussion of negative experiences during a psychedelic trip and how it can be used as a learning experience for self-improvement; I'd like to paraphrase your post as a part of an explanation that many drugs (both legal and illegal) are used to numb these negative feelings instead, which potentially leads to even worse situations both for the individual and the society in which they are in.

Re:Okay

[Z00L00K]

Come back after a severe anxiety attack and tell me why you didn't want to have that capped.

Re:Okay

[RabidReindeer]

Can you stand up? I do believe it's working.

Why would we want to numb existential distress? This emotion is a social corrective mechanism that tells us when society is moving in the wrong direction. The reason it is becoming more of a problem in modern times is because our society is profoundly ill and we perceive that on some level. In the same way physical pain makes one pull one's hand out of the fire, existential stress makes one reevaluate one's life and look at ways it could be made more meaningful and more fulfilling. Why don't we just make a drug to cure ambition, sexual desire and distress of the conscience while while we are at it and wreck the human race for good?

I have existential high blood pressure. In effect, I exist, therefore I have high blood pressure. Which really means they haven't got a clue what's actually causing it. But it's just as dangerous as the other kind, so I have it treated.

Likewise, existential distress is not the the same thing as actual distress in response to actual situations. If you are always distressed for no concrete reason, not only are you continually miserable, you are also losing the baseline that tells you when things are objectively bad.

Ideally, one would want to numb the false (existential) distress, while not interfering with the normal feelings of distress.

Re:Okay

[Rob the Bold]

Why would we want to numb existential distress? This emotion is a social corrective mechanism that tells us when society is moving in the wrong direction. The reason it is becoming more of a problem in modern times is because our society is profoundly ill and we perceive that on some level. In the same way physical pain makes one pull one's hand out of the fire, existential stress makes one reevaluate one's life and look at ways it could be made more meaningful and more fulfilling. Why don't we just make a drug to cure ambition, sexual desire and distress of the conscience while while we are at it and wreck the human race for good?

I can pull my hand out of a fire. I can't fix society's problems with or without crippling anxiety and depression. For that matter, no one can fix the real biggie of "existential distress", the one that puts the "existential" in the existential distress, as in the end of one's existence -- we've all heard of it: Death. The basket cases and the numb all meet the same end.

Re:Okay

[skids]

This. Anxiety and panic aren't always beneficial and they don't always end on their own.
Sometimes they run away with themselves in completely unproductive directions, and
will cause you to do some pretty crazy and potentially self-damaging things. Since your
brain has effectively been disabled, you can't just self-discipline your way out of them
either.

They can get so bad that you have to go the ER and have them break the feedback loop
with a Lorazepam or whatnot.

Not to mention the actual physical toll that cronic anxiety can have on the health of the
rest of your body (from extreme stress levels) is damaging to your longterm health.

Re:Okay

[rocket rancher]

Ok, just a little pin prick, there'll be no more aarrrrrg, but you may feel a little sick. That's why, right there. Try not to attribute purpose and direction to anything that a society/culture does. That kind of teleological reasoning is flawed; cultures don't move with purpose towards any kind of goal, any more than species evolve towards some perfect form. Natural selection just doesn't work that way. Culture (I use culture interchangeably with society) i.e., the heterogeneous amalgamation of memes that we label as culture, simply adapts to the prevalent context and survives into the next generation, or it fails to adapt and extincts itself. Even a shallow examination of our species cultural diversity strongly suggests that there are no perfect strategies for cultural survival -- there are only things that sometimes work, but most of the time don't. An ephor from Leonidas' Sparta might recognize a Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh as a kindred spirit, but they wouldn't understand why Beck's and Limbaugh's tactics are successful, because modern American demagogues emerged from a different cultural context than he and his fellow Spartan demagogues did. No amount of Tylenol on the planet can numb me to the existential distress that lunatics like Beck and Limbaugh engender in me when they are trolling their user base. However, Tylenol and it's opioid-laced variants *will* keep me going for the show. C'mon, it's time to go.

Re:Okay

[Princeofcups]

Why would we want to numb existential distress?

Here's the skinny for those who think that anxiety and depression are just something that weak people complain about. These issues are a result of a physical condition. Think of it like have having diabetes, or having your legs blown off. People who succumb to extreme anxiety are some of the strongest willed people out there. They have to live with this condition day in and day out, and try to appear normal at the same time. The mechanism is easy to understand. When someone points a loaded gun at you, or in more primitive time, a tiger jumps out of the bush, your neurochemicals change. You freeze, time slows, you are ready to jump and run at a moment's notice, you are prepared to die. The same is true for harsh conditions, wartime, famine, etc. People who are naturally in a state of high stress have a better chance of survival. Life is pretty awful, but you can bear the next tragedy pretty well. Now imagine a society where we never have to deal with these things. Those that are predisposed to deal with the worst through genetics, upbringing, life events, etc., that is, who have a physically different neurochemicals, have no reason to be that way. There is no tiger, although it feels like there is. There is no war, although your brain is telling you that there is. You can't simply "suck it up" or "just get over it." It's the way that you are forced to think, and you spend your life fighting these feelings.

Most people don't have these feelings. Lucky them. The problem is that they can't conceive of what it's like when you are constantly on alert, because any lapse means that you will die. Now therapy does help to some extent. It helps you identify triggers, and to identify when your body is telling you something that's not true. But it's tiring, and painful to deal with. Having some kind of medication to help alleviate that, and get you back to a stable level of neurochemicals is a god send. The problem with meds is that every one has side effects, so it is imperative that you find a doctor to help you find the best dosage and mix with the least side effects. And do therapy at the same time to learn to see those effects on your moods and thinking.

So, yes, it is wonderful to have another option for anxiety when your brain is telling you to run and hide and there is nothing there. We're not talking about suppressing minor ennui or occasional blues. We're not saying to get rid of all emotions. But if taking a couple of over the counter pills with minor side effects can get a truly anxious person through a touch situation, then I'm all for that.

Re:Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the GP's point was that if society weren't so utterly dismal, you wouldn't have anxiety attacks.

Before you ask, yes, that sentence WAS supposed to be read in a voice that implies it should be followed up with "and what's more, we'd have rainbow trees growing out of the ground, unicorns would be real again, we could eat candy all day long, and Jesus would come back and say everything was all right! Yaaaaaaaay!".

Re:Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel the same way about taking anti-depressants. I'm not depressed because there's something wrong with me, I'm depressed because my life has been, and is, objectively shitty. When I feel like I should be happy and I'm not, then I'll consider it.

I'd consider taking something to suppress sexual desire until I'm wealthy enough to attract a girlfriend though.

Re:Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicely put. Divorce, death, major personal tragedies - also times when a pill is wonderful.

People who don't understand this have simply never been in real long-term pain. Day-in, day-out can't sleep, it physically hurts. For a day or two, no big deal. But it doesn't go away. The pain is always there, hurting, building, and eventually overwhelming. It's horrible in a way you can't understand or believe until you've experienced it. Everyone breaks eventually, and in my experience, the people who scoff and pooh-pooh the most, give in the fastest and most dramatically because their denial leaves them particularly unprepared.

I'm old enough to have been through some genuine emotional suffering. I didn't use a pill, but if I went back knowing how bad it was, I'd happily use a pill for a few days. A vacation from the pain, time enough to pull it together and recover slightly.

Re:Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't we just make a drug to cure ambition, sexual desire and distress of the conscience while while we are at it

It's called marijuana and I like it.

Re:Okay

[Internetuser1248]

Sure go ahead

Re:Okay

[Internetuser1248]

You will have to excuse me for not understanding that existential distress means extreme anxiety. My father suffers from this and I have never heard it referred to as existential distress. A google search resulted in a bunch of articles about buddhism, this article which doesn't mention anxiety and describes existential distress as "hopelessness, burden to others, loss of sense of dignity, desire for death or loss of will to live [1] and threats to self identity". There is no mention of anxiety. Typing existential distress into wikipedia leads to a page about Solastalgia and the will to live. Given the lack of any real meaning for this term to be found I simply used my own knowledge of the words "existential" and "distress" and assumed a meaning based on that.

I am still not convinced existential distress means anxiety attacks, but if anxiety attacks are what this drug can treat then that is great and I retract my comments about it being a bad idea.

Re:Okay

[Internetuser1248]

Perhaps I phrased it wrong but it was not my intention to assign purpose or direction objectively. I was speaking to the human mentality that assumes artificial purpose and direction as a mechanism for understanding and categorising social concepts. To rephrase what I said in terms of "the heterogeneous amalgamation of memes that we label as culture": Distress of an existential nature (as distinct from anxiety and depression which I refer to as such and see no reason to invent new terms for) is part of a psychological feedback mechanism which regulates certain aspects of society. Human beings manufacture a sense of purpose and direction in order to help establish priorities and goals for behaviour. When the priorities and goals of an individual differ from those of society at large or those around them, this results in a feeling of distress which in isolation, can prompt the affected individual to attempt to change their priorities and goals, and when shared by a larger group, can prompt the group to attempt to change the priorities and goals of the society or culture that they are part of. In terms of social evolution, an individual or group having different goals and priorities than their surrounding cultural substrate can result in inefficiency of social function. It is therefore a natural evolutionary development that a psychological tool has evolved to help the individual sense when this is the case, and to prompt them to attempt to resolve the conflict.

Re:Okay

[Internetuser1248]

Here's the skinny for those who think that anxiety and depression are just something that weak people complain about.

Can you explain to me where it is written that existential distress = anxiety and depression?
My father and brother suffer from anxiety attacks, and my wife and sister from depression. I would never dream of telling anyone they are weak or should 'suck it up' when suffering from such problems. I resent the implication that I was doing so. Given that existential distress does not appear to be a commonly used phrase in medicine, I simply added the meanings of the respective words together.

Re:Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you suggesting that psychological problems have no basis in the sufferer's social environment? If so, the WHO and many psychological publications have some statistics you might want to check out.

Re:Okay

[rocket rancher]

Thanks for the response, though I think I should be more clear in what I was responding to in your original post. In your response to my post, I hear truth in what you are saying; humans indeed internalize the patterns they perceive in their environment that in turn act as checks and balances on their future behaviors. No argument there. Indeed, self-awareness -- the ability of an organism to model the environment and then insert itself into the model to better predict the value of a given survival strategy -- confers a decided competitive advantage over organisms lacking that level of cognitive complexity. Humans can and do evaluate the potential risks and rewards of a given strategy. Throw cooperative behavior (made possible by the ability to communicate with other members of the species) into the mix of potential strategies available, as you rightly do, and the ability to adapt at the group level becomes possible. The issue for me in your original post was your explicit assertion that there was something wrong with the current cultural context, not that it wouldn't lead to different survival strategies. I really don't disagree with anything you asserted, you made a well-reasoned argument and I enjoyed reading it. Rather, my heartburn was in the implication in one of those assertions that there exists some standard other than survival by which those alternative strategies can be judged. To wit: the assertion that our culture is "profoundly ill" implies that there is a privileged state that is non-ill. Unless you can provide evidence for this privileged state, I have to remain skeptical of its existence. The idea that there is some way, other than survival, to base a judgment about the viability of a strategy, be it individual or collective, is a non-starter for me. Your well-reasoned argument just became a theology at that point, and while remaining highly entertaining, as most theologies are, it thus lost some of its rigor for me.

Re:Okay

[denmarkw00t]

Some of the best self-discovery I've had was using ... that thing specifically that your book will focus on - but on two occasions with a particular fungus I had a good time and a bad time. The good time led me guided through an Aztec maze to meet with my spiritual guardian, the other was the most horrifying and chaotic experience of my life short of being born (and I since I don't really remember that one...). The terrible experience altered my perspective of life, what it means to "live," and how meaningless all of the little parts of everyday life are - our focus should be on improving the whole of humanity so that our existence will shine into the future instead of burning out in a charred waste of nuclear wreckage.

Good luck with the book! Keep me posted if you would, I'd like to give it a read.

Re:Okay

[denmarkw00t]

Well, for those with anxiety, the causes and roots are many. The "hopelessness, burden to others, loss of sense of dignity, desire for death or loss of will to live and threats to self identity" can be common to people with symptoms that affect their anxiety - paranoia, for example, can create a feeling of hopelessness that breeds anxiety over obsessive thoughts such as "I'm terrible at my job" or "I'll never get better" - these thoughts can be attributed to the paranoid delusion that there is an active force of the universe out to get you - these thoughts feed more anxiety and a loop is created.

Anxiety can readily be triggered by external forces and perceptions, existential distress is by no means exempt from that.

Re:Okay

[YttriumOxide]

Drop me a quick email at my username excluding the last three characters at Google's well known email service. I'll keep you informed when it's published and if you like, maybe I can ask you a few questions about your experiences and thoughts on the subject (no promises I'll use anything you give me; but I promise I'll read it and consider it)

For reference, the book is about two-thirds done as far as content is concerned - I'm expecting to start approaching publishers by around September/October.

There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Only generic paracetamol/acetaminophen, which are all five major over-the-counter fever/headache medicines, sans their 3x-4x price difference among them!!!! Why pay $5, when you can pay $1!!! Wake up people and read the active ingredientson the back of your favorite packaging! THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylenol

Re: There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[jaminJay]

Effective ingredients must be listed on the front over here. Usually legible from the customer's side of the counter.

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Samantha Wright]

You must be really fun at parties.

There is not such thing as ASPIRIN!

There is not such thing as BRAND-NAME PRINTER TONER!

There is not such thing as SETH MACFARLANE!

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, you must be really rich or really mentally retarded, if you wish to pay premium price on 500 mg of acetaminophene over another generic package of 500 mg acetaminophene, worth less than 1/5 of Tylenol's price. Boy oh boy...

Re: There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Once upon a time I read them and compared them all among one another and noticed the only difference among them was to lesser extent dosage of active ingredient vs. to larger extent their brand name, which seemed to the only reason to make up for their vast price difference. Seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panadol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylenol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol

Re: There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Other names:
http://www.irishhealth.com/askdoc.html?q=5703

Same applies to ipobrufen brand names... Higher on price for same amount of active ingredient.

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe he just doesn't live in the US or another 3rd world country (when it comes to healthcare).

Over here in the Netherlands we pay less than half a US dollar for over the counter storebrand 500mg acetaminophene. Brandnames cost a lot more (lets say 4x as much) but that's still only 2 dollars for a full pack.

Now paying 4x as much for just a name may sound stupid by itself, but at such low prices many people are in a position to just not care. If those 1 or 2 extra dollars make you feel you somehow are getting better quality stuff, go for it.

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Trepidity]

You're technically not supposed to use the name genericized like that; the proper phrasing is "BRAND-NAME PRINTER TONER® brand printer toner".

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be popular among the high school anarchist circles. Do you scratch Dead Kennedy's logo onto your binders?

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, you must be really rich or really mentally retarded, if you wish to pay premium price on 500 mg of acetaminophene over another generic package of 500 mg acetaminophene, worth less than 1/5 of Tylenol's price. Boy oh boy...

Most of us are perfectly happy to buy generic Acetaminophen and then call it Tylenol, because we don't give a fuck about Johnson & Johnson's trademark rights. Everybody knows the name Tylenol(R), and everybody buys the store-brand stuff and just calls it that.

I'm sure Johnson & Johnson appreciates your dedicated use of the registered trademark Tylenol(R) to only refer to genuine Johnson & Johnson brand acetaminophen. Their lawyers and marketing professionals would no doubt commend you for your spirited defense of their legal ownership of that marque.

Re:There is not such thing as TYLENOL!

[Samantha Wright]

Oh, no, I buy generic acetaminophen when I need it. But that doesn't mean I deny the existence of the brand name product. That's a downright bizarre epistemological error.

Brought to you by..

[OhANameWhatName]

.. McNeil Consumer Health Care, owners of the Tylenol brand.

Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems. I've seen it depicted in movies that Americans take (prescribed) drugs when feeling bad, but I can't believe anyone would really do this - is this for real, or are the movies exaggerating? I mean, why would a doctor tell you to drug yourself, even if you feel depressed.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[tbird81]

What country are you from?

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems. I've seen it depicted in movies that Americans take (prescribed) drugs when feeling bad, but I can't believe anyone would really do this - is this for real, or are the movies exaggerating? I mean, why would a doctor tell you to drug yourself, even if you feel depressed.

What a ridiculous statement.

Of course people in Europe are prescribed medicines for depression. I have several friends who have gone through bouts of depression (yes, here in Europe where I am also from) and were prescribed anti-depressants for a short period to help them through it.

Just because people don't talk about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Perhaps it is just cultural: Americans are more likely to share personal information with random strangers than Europeans.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[radio4fan]

According to this paper, 3.5% of French people are currently taking antidepressants, and 42% have taken them at some point. And this article claims that 24% of Spanish women use antidepressants. I also know many friends and family members who take or have taken antidepressants in the UK.

I mean, why would a doctor tell you to drug yourself, even if you feel depressed.

This isn't about some vague feelings of 'feeling bad' or 'feeling depressed', this is for diagnosed clinical depression.

You're very lucky that you've evidently never suffered from depression, or you wouldn't say this.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems.

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems, and tell me about it.

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for recreational purposes, and tell me about it.

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems. They just cause psychological problems in other people.

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I knew took drugs for psychological problems. They committed suicide, instead.

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I . . .

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[gl4ss]

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems. I've seen it depicted in movies that Americans take (prescribed) drugs when feeling bad, but I can't believe anyone would really do this - is this for real, or are the movies exaggerating? I mean, why would a doctor tell you to drug yourself, even if you feel depressed.

uhh.. go to your doctor, tell him that you're depressed in europe and you will get pretty much the same stuff, in europe.
varies from country to country of course, like italians who self medicate with cocaine... but in 2010 roughly 10% in europe were taking antidepressants of some sort - not including drinking or drugs.

it's fairly common but it's also fairly taboo. practically people only tell their best buddies...

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[thetoadwarrior]

I'm not sure he was trying to imply that Europeans never take prescription drugs for depression because that would be stupid. But Americans seem much happier to just rely on drugs to sort out any problem. Whether it's a good thing or not people are far more accepting of it and products are advertised on tv. I always found that odd because those ads do generally seem to imply their pills are an answer to small bouts of depression. Every person feels down at some point and how you handle it, imo, determines how frequently it's a problem. If you learn to just get over it because it isn't a big deal then that will make you a stronger person than someone who relies on someone else to bail them out of any little problem. It's not a problem if your doctor can recognise if you're properly depressed or just in a mood but with such a capitalist medical system I'm not sure that happens in the US.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[thetoadwarrior]

3.5% is lower than the number in America. http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/astounding-increase-in-antidepressant-use-by-americans-201110203624

With increased of around 400% in a decade and nearly a quarter of women aged 40 to 50 on them and 14% of non Hispanic white people, I think it's fair to say America is more reliant on popping pills. The concern is as well how few see a professional over their problems. They just rely on pills and ironically usage among those who are more likely to be poor and have real problems use fewer anti-depressants. It's good the pills exist but they're not the answer to every problem. They're even advertised on TV which I find a bit concerning. They're prescription drugs and shouldn't need advertising. If you're feeling down then you see a professional and they can determine the best course of action to resolve your problems.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[1s44c]

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems. I've seen it depicted in movies that Americans take (prescribed) drugs when feeling bad, but I can't believe anyone would really do this - is this for real, or are the movies exaggerating? I mean, why would a doctor tell you to drug yourself, even if you feel depressed.

I've had this discussion before and American's won't understand your point of view. Drugs are so commonplace in American society that taking them for anything or in some cases nothing is seen as normal. There are cases where medication is the right answer but they are a minority of the cases, medication appears to be prescribed in the vast majority of cases.

So yes, American's get prescribed drugs when they tell their doctor they feel bad even where those drugs are inappropriate. People rarely question their doctor because they went to medical school so must know what they are doing.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[wift]

Scientology perhaps?

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[arth1]

I'm from Europe, and none of the people I know would take drugs for psychological problems, and tell me about it.

You sure don't sound like a European - you sound like a redneck.

Look at some of the drug sale statistics, and you'll see that average Americans use drugs like candy compared to what average Europeans do.

Sure, there is a stigma in many European countries to admitting a psychological problem. Which is both a good and a bad thing - while it likely causes underreporting, it also prevents overreporting and helps those who stand up being taken seriously. It doesn't appear to correlate with people going apeshit/postal.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better living through chemistry....

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Anonymous Coward]

Woosh.. and really just an ad hominem attack because you miss the joke? (not the original ac)

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Anonymous Coward]

What?? Wha... What?

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Anonymous Coward]

The english word "drug" is often used with the meaning "medicine" instead of "narcotic".

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Cederic]

ironically usage among those who are more likely to be poor and have real problems use fewer anti-depressants

Who the fuck ever linked real-world problems to depression?

Shit, if you're too busy surviving you don't have _time_ to be depressed.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Cederic]

go to your doctor, tell him that you're depressed in europe and you will get

.. told to change my job.

I'm on medication that acts as a "mood stabiliser" but I think that's to stop me wanting to get knocked down by a tram/bus/lorry rather than generic depression.

The irony is that I have no idea whether it's working. As it's a 6 month ramp-up to full dosage, taking a break to find out could be damaging. Maybe I should just stop and find out if I hurt/kill myself.

Nonetheless, even clinical depression is likely to come with alternatives to drugging yourself senseless.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[Meeni]

Go read statistics. Several europeans countries trump US for anti-depressant consumption per-capita.

Re:Do Americans really take drugs for depression?

[tbird81]

Thought so. Most "I'm from Europe" comments are mostly trolls too fearful to acknowledge what shitty country they live in.

This post

[Anonymous Coward]

brought to you by the makers of TYLENOL!

Tylenol

[Anonymous Coward]

We're not just for headaches anymore!

It depends on the dose

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough Tylenol will "ease" anything.

Tylenol

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just for headaches anymore!

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

It gets (at least some) people a little stoned. I have had this experience with paracetamol for a long time. It's effective as a sleeping aid as well.

Recommended dosage of HTFU

[SplashMyBandit]

In my country, New Zealand, your mates would tell you to go take a big glass of "Harden the Fuck Up", followed by a dozen pints of beer.

"Existential Challenge" seems to amplified as a "First World Problem". If you are busy fending for your life you have two choices - get one with it (no matter how big a bitch Mother Nature is), or lay down an die. When our ancestors lamented existence it was because their lives were "nasty, brutal and short". Now, no matter how poor you are relative to your neighbour, we *all* live in luxury that far exceeds the great emperors of old. We all have far greater health care than even recent ancestors. We have great pain relief. We get bored with hundreds of channels of entertainment, income that is actually disposable on more than sustenance-level items, and the entire accumulated knowledge of all of humanity accessible through your laptop or your phone. We are granted nearly everything by our society and parents, but the one thing we have to obtain for ourselves is the correct mental attitude to appreciate it all (the accumulated achievements and struggles of our ancestors that bequeathed us such splendors of knowledge and possessions).

In some cases drugs will help chemical abnormalities that can cause depression. In a large number of cases you don't need drugs, you need a change of perspective (like the Buddhists teach themselves to do).

Re:Recommended dosage of HTFU

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical NZ answer, surely understanding the crap in the article will help, well perhaps no.
Perhaps everyone should be put thru a wee bit of stress in order to understand it can get worse, much worse.
As for drugs, AU/NZ are the leaders.

Re:Recommended dosage of HTFU

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an idiot. That is all.

Re: Recommended dosage of HTFU

[ceoyoyo]

Fending for your life is an excellent cure for existential angst. Even pretending works. I get cranky and depressed in a couple of days if I don't get enough exercise. I realise that most of the people around me consider that state normal.

Why are there no aspirins in the jungle?

[kevingolding2001]

Because the parrots eat 'em all.

Does Paracetamol actually do anything?

[1s44c]

Serious question - Every now and then I get a headache, or muscle ache, or hurt myself in some way. Regardless of the source of the pain if I take paracetamol I get no noticeable pain relief, it feels exactly like taking a placebo. Yet people around me keep taking this stuff like it actually does something.

Does Paracetamol actually work for people here?

Re:Does Paracetamol actually do anything?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it works(*) for me. I use it to treat migraine/tension headaches. I tried ibuprofen as well and that behaves like a placebo for me.

(*) where works is defined as something over 50% relief effective for 24 hours and: in combination with verapamil(**), caffeine and at 1000mg per dose (repeated if necessary)
(**) verapamil amplifies analgesic effects of various medications and reduces liver toxicity of paracetamol specifically

Re:Does Paracetamol actually do anything?

[arth1]

Can't speak for others, but no, for me, paracetamol doesn't do anything for pain, except sometimes causing a mild headache.
Yet doctors insist on telling me to take it, like if it hasn't ever worked for the last 45 years, it will now suddenly work.

If I want pain gone or even reduced, I need something that ends with -ine.
Codeine, Caffeine, Benzocaine, Buprenorphine, Moonshine, Flupirtine...

Re:Does Paracetamol actually do anything?

[Guppy]

Serious question - Every now and then I get a headache, or muscle ache, or hurt myself in some way. Regardless of the source of the pain if I take paracetamol I get no noticeable pain relief, it feels exactly like taking a placebo.

Quite possibly -- there is always individual variation in response to substances; I would expect this to be doubly true for a pro-drug that requires further metabolism to activate. Unfortunately, I didn't find much in a quick search just now regarding variability in pain relief with acetaminophen, although there are plenty of studies examining variable responses regarding liver toxicty.

Re:Does Paracetamol actually do anything?

[Anonymous Coward]

An acquaintance of mine who had heavy post-operative pain found herself asking this question. She was being prescribed paracetamol as well as another painkiller, and when she'd had her limit of that one, she found herself wondering if the paracetamol was doing _anything_, because she was in such pain. So as an experiment, she stopped taking them. The result? Newfound appreciation for just how much pain paracetamol is capable of relieving.

Me, I take it very rarely because I am unfortunately very limited in the kinds of painkillers I can take, but when I do, with the exception of low blood sugar headaches, it works really well; to me it's almost science-fiction-impressive, because I take painkillers so rarely.

If it's not working for you, I sincerely hope there is something that does.

Re:Does Paracetamol actually do anything?

[Slashdot Parent]

Every now and then I get a headache, or muscle ache, or hurt myself in some way. Regardless of the source of the pain if I take paracetamol I get no noticeable pain relief, it feels exactly like taking a placebo.

Personally, I find that ibuprofen is a more effective over-the-counter pain reliever. It can cause people stomach problems, but I haven't experienced that personally. I think you need to already have ulcers or really take a lot of the stuff for it to mess up your stomach.

The Simpsons was the control clip?

[guttentag]

One group was forced to watch 4 minutes from The Rabbits (this could very well be four minutes of watching a creepy Donny Darko-esque rabbit housewife ironing in while listening to lethargic creepy music), while the other group watched an unspecified 4-minute clip from the Simpsons. The result was that the people who took Tylenol thought that a person convicted of theft or vandalism during a riot (hockey, of course, since the study was conducted in Canada) should be subjected to a punishment 23% more severe than normal if they watched the Simpsons, and 26% more severe than normal after watching the Rabbits. The people who took the placebo thought that the punishment should be 26% more severe than normal if they watched the Simpsons, and 42% more severe than normal after watching the Rabbits.

I have to question the judgment of a researcher who would use The Simpsons as a "control," especially when he's not specifying what the clip was about. He says "all clips available upon request." That's like saying "name of the drug given to participants in the study available on request." Knowing the Simpsons, it could have been anything from "If a cow ever got the chance, it would eat you and everyone you ever cared about," to Homer driving the family to Alaska, stopping at the border and hearing, "Welcome to Alaska, here's a thousand dollars!" It could well be that the Rabbits gave the placebo group a headache. See the comments on the rabbits clip on YouTube. Top comment:

"This is creepy as fuck."

Other comments:

"Something's wrong."
"you are a madman."
"Haunting in the most dream-like will always return to this."
"Wow, that horrific scream made me jump."
"It's like... they're having a normal conversation, just... not in the right order."
"Man, D.A.R.E. would be a lot more successful if they just pointed to shit like this."

All those people sound like they need Tylenol, or Excedrin, or something to make their head stop hurting. Since the placebo group did not have anything to make their head stop hurting, they decided to take it out on the people who rioted over a hockey game...

Re:The Simpsons was the control clip?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Rabbits were made by David Lynch, if that helps any. They were divided into shorts and released incrementally on his website some time ago. They also made a cameo in Inland Empire. I especially like the flaming hole/comet that burns in the corner of the film for a while, and the indiscriminate laugh track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbits_%28film%29
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0347840/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Not that you really care, but I quite liked it for what it was..

Snort lots of cocaine

[Sla$hPot]

That really works well too

Is "Existential Distress" in the DSM-V?

[nightcats]

It might as well be, for if it can be healed with a pill then it rates as mental illness; if not, it's all between your ears and get over it.

Re:Is "Existential Distress" in the DSM-V?

[Anonymous Coward]

you have to wonder whats in a pill that cures "vague spiritual desires"?

But you can't buy Tylenol!

[Anonymous Coward]

Disappeared from shelves several years ago - where did they get the Tylenol they needed to do this study? Tylenol's disappearance was never really explained - quality control issues, but they've had years to fix them.

And yet again...

[Foske]

And yet again, something that could easily be solved by psychological training is 'solved' by chemicals of which we don't have a clue what they actually do to our body. I foresee a future where we 'civilized' people actually die younger on average, because all the side effects of the medication we consumed actually do more harm then good.

Obv.

[colfer]

Completely expected that a pain reliever would work on mental pain. Aspirin probably works too.

Is a good therapy

[Anonymous Coward]

You can make Photo Developer with acetaminophen Parodinal Developer. Is a good therapy using it for photography and keeps it away from your liver.

Is this bad?

[Murdoch5]

It would be worth, and maybe I missed it, at taking a look into what is worse for your liver, drinking or Tylenol. If both can cause the same general side effect of easing social distress then maybe it would be worth figuring out which one is less damaging. Now I'm not trying to calm that I support people using medication to try and hide pain brought forth from social rejection, but if it comes down to it I think picking the less of two evils is always better at least from a substance view point.

And it kills snakes!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100924-science-animals-guam-brown-tree-snakes-mouse-tylenol/

Marketing came up with this first...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tylenol had a marketing campaign over 5 years ago that basically said this (as detailed in Rob Walker's book, I'm With the Brand; they were trying to associate the Tylenol brand with halting the pain teen gamers have when separated from their games consoles).

Anyhow, having read the paper, there's no Conflicts of interest flagged, but there's no blinding mentioned in the study protocol either, despite having a placebo arm.

It's a small sample size (n=25) and if it's the case that those that know they're having an active intervention do better in tests compared with those that know they're on sugar pills do not, it's not that surprising... so while it's an interesting hypothesis, this could very easily just be poor experimental design at play.

Its probablly just a placebo.

[Anonymous Coward]

The mind knows Tylenol relieves pain so it probably unintentionally perceives social anxiety as pain and thus relieves it as well. Kind of like 50 years ago when an old lady didn't have anything wrong with her, or something that was untreatable a dr would prescribe a placebo and say it will make her feel better. So the old ladies problems are suddenly gone and she feels great when all she is taking is a sugar tablet. Why? Because her brain told her it was to fix her pain and problem, and thus it did.

Same thing here. People believe Tylenol removes pain because it does and perhaps it removes the psychological pain as well to a certain extent.

Or maybe this is another one of those "Hey I came up with something that is complete bullshit but it sounds really good to get some grant money for my research so I don't have to get a real job for the next year or so".

Re:Its probablly just a placebo.

[hey!]

The study was double-blind with a placebo control.

You wasted the time spent on your response; time you will never get back.. Nobody's going to want to associate with you, either, because they'll look silly by reflection.

You might need a couple of Tylenol.

Vitamin D

[justthinkit]

Have you tried Vitamin D? It is now relatively common for people, especially older ones, to take 2000IU daily. Worked for me. Note: not suggesting it as a cure all, but it certainly _improved_ my QoL.

so does marijuana...

[who_stole_my_kidneys]

so i fail to see the importance of this.

Potentially carcinogenic

[paradigm82]

Paracetamol/acetaminophen is potentially carcinogenic. It has been shown to inhibit DNA repair (see e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7715617 or Google yourself) and has been associated with an increase in various cancers, for instance blood cancers which are often associated with factors that cause DNA damage (see e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21555699).
It has also been associated with other cancers. In contrast to this, the alternative painkiller aspirin has been associated with a decreased risk of many different types of cancer, notably colon cancer but also blood cancers as well as many other cancers (too lazy to find all the references). In animals, it can protect animals exposed to other carcinogens from cancer.
Ibuprofen seems to be mixed, in some studies it is associated with increased cancer in other with decreased risk.
By the way, note that aspirin is not a magic bullet against cancer; it is also a blood thinner. People who take it chronically are prone to getting bruises from the slightest hits. This also means it increases the risk of potentially fatal bleeds, as well as certain types of strokes (intercranial haemorrage). On the other hand it decreases the risk of blood clots. The net effect is difficult to assess.

Never trust a drug company when...

[Anonymous Coward]

They find new and improved uses for their drug....which has taken a sales hit. If I could increase sales of the drug by proclaiming it greatly increases the chance of seeing Elvis just to make some money I definitely would. Next we will be told it has some type of military application as well.

Paracetamol?

[tehcyder]

What you take when you are hungover along with three bottles of lucozade and a full English breakfast?

I suppose it has a mild numbing effect but that's about it.

so does heroin

[KingBenny]

and probably better than anything else, but since it only alleviates symptoms without providing any kind of solution to the underlying problem it's just postponing the inevitable and leads to dependence.
treatment of symptoms without addressing the real problem that's causing them seems to be a common bug in the homo sapiens' operating system in all layers of society
hence
i stick to my conclusion, the homo sapiens is an anomaly in evolution, it shouldn't be here anymore
(next up : a creationist sees in this the hand of an intelligent intervention team)