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Saudi Arabian Telecom Pitches to Moxie Marlinspike
An anonymous reader sent in this excerpt from Moxie Marlinspike's weblog:
"Last week I was contacted by an agent of Mobily, one of two telecoms operating in Saudi Arabia, about a surveillance project that they're working on in that country. Having published two reasonably popular MITM tools, it's not uncommon for me to get emails requesting that I help people with their interception projects. I typically don't respond, but this one (an email titled 'Solution for monitoring encrypted data on telecom') caught my eye. ... The requirements are the ability to both monitor and block mobile data communication, and apparently they already have blocking setup. ... When they eventually asked me for a price quote, and I indicated that I wasn't interested in the job for privacy reasons, they responded with this: ' I know that already and I have same thoughts like you freedom and respecting privacy, actually Saudi has a big terrorist problem and they are misusing these services for spreading terrorism and contacting and spreading their cause that's why I took this and I seek your help. If you are not interested than maybe you are on indirectly helping those who curb the freedom with their brutal activities.'"
our officials here have snooped on us in every way possible for years. When they can't figure out how to snoop (old Skype) they simply hire Microsoft to buy the company and add a back-door.
The Saudi's could learn a lot from us.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
Did the Saudi's use M$?
If you don't spy on your own people, the terrorists win. Heard it all before.
The ruling al-Saud family will soon have to come with a follow-up for the current king. In the same time, a complete army of foreign experts & technicians is required to keep the entire Saudi infrastructure ( telco, roads, water supply, power generation ) running. Moreover, the Saudi government is continuously spying upon its citizens, as a habit. Women are slowly beginning to protest against the enormous discrimination and contempt they live under.
All of this taken together mixes up quite explosively. Mark my words: 25 years from now, Saudi Arabia as we know it will have gone down
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
I bet if it was the US or UK government or some such that came a-knockin this person wouldn't have blabbed that fact all over the internets. But it's the Saudis and they're evil. Ok, I have no proof whatsoever of any potential double-standards and I'm no saint myself but just sayin.
It will quickly be forgotten as the march of internet history steamrolls entire states, but the general framing of this Saudi guy's response showing that tiny cracks are already forming in these societies. This guy's bosses probably doesn't understand that continually framing your opinion as "I care about freedom" will begin to rewire everything and they'll wake up one day with one less brick in their walls.
If it was real, I'd be a bit leery about posting details to the public in a way that identifies himself. You never know if an Al-Saud crony might off him. That family themselves HAVE been tied to terrorist groups, or at least certain members of them.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
or just an asshole
Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship, they rule by an army inducing terror on a populace, not because the populace chose the leadership.
Terrorist in that sense is just a term dictators apply to their opponents. Syria and Assad springs to mind, he calls the opponents terrorists for objecting to him being dictator. Israel and Gaza Palastinians is another example of using the terrorist label to suppress an opponent.
The Saudi bloke seems to have said nothing wrong... and he is sincere. Which is more than you can say about Moxie -- who's protecting "privacy" by revealing one side of a private conversation.
I think the western governments would be a bit more clever than that. They have the resources to develop their own home grown spying tools. They don't need an outside consultant, which is what this guy would have been. Otherwise you'd be hearing about this kind of stuff all the time.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Well I guess that's your view then. I specifically didn't mention any nation, only "the job".
It's about high fucking time people in the western world realise that freedom cannot be passive. You can't just sit back in your armchair and blab. Be offensive, do a number on these scumbags. If he really, really cared about privacy he would have fought for the millions of people who are going to be spied on anyway, just not with his tool. This applies equally to the UK as it does to Saudi Arabia, this story just happens to be set in a country most people around here don't like.
People like the guy in the story makes me fucking sick. You realise that where you are born and the freedoms you enjoy are all PURE LUCK, and one of the few things in your life you have no control over. Why should freedom be restrained to people lucky enough to be born under a constitution? Spread the wealth.
... whatever
I bet if it was the US or UK government or some such that came a-knockin this person wouldn't have blabbed that fact all over the internets. But it's the Saudis and they're evil. Ok, I have no proof whatsoever of any potential double-standards and I'm no saint myself but just sayin.
Then you clearly don't know who Moxie Marlinspike is (which seems kind of odd, as he's an extremely well known security researcher).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie_Marlinspike
Aside fromt he fact that he's been championing against the certificate authority sytem because it gives the US too much power, there's also the fact that he's an anarchist (he's written anarchist pieces completely unrelated to technology, and founded the Anarchist Yacht Club). That the Saudis contacted him speaks volumes to their incompetence, imho.
"If you're not with us, you're against us."
That's really the best line they can come up with? I just got a faint ping on my dubiousonar.
Moxie should work with social networks / communications systems to help secure them against such attacks. He's shown that he won't compromise on the matter, so hopefully the offers come in from WhatsApp and others to hire him as a secure communications consultant.
instead of doing real work that helps real people.
Are we talking about the same Moxie Marlinspike?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie_Marlinspike
Who wrote things like:
http://convergence.io/details.html
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/RedPhone
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/
(aguably the most used encrypted communications apps for Android)
http://tack.io/
http://www.audioanarchy.org/
http://www.blueanarchy.org/
https://www.cloudcracker.com/
I could go on. Hell, I haven't even gotten to the talks he's done and the vulnerabilities he's disclosed.
Seriously, if you're that dismissive of Moxie Marlinspike, you MUST have cured a major disease or something. Please, do tell.
He didn't come running to slash dot he posted it to his blog! Someone else posted it to slash dot so take your foot out of your mouth and shove it back up your arse.
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
The most interesting thing about the whole episode for me is that the person who is ostensibly in charge of things responds to MM's refusal to help by basically saying "if you are not helping us with blanket surveillance of our population in our efforts to find terrorists, then you must be either working with or sympathetic to those terrorists".
I can understand the Saudis being sensitive to terrorist threats - they are a repressive monarchy; Osama bin Laden was a Saudi citizen... the bin Laden family is very close to the Saudi Royal Family; and the Arab Spring clearly changed the face of arabic politics and government, and anyone looking to depose the monarchy or force change faster than the king can push the more conservative clerics in his ruling circle will be seen as some variant of terrorist, I am sure.
Plus the status of the Arabic members of society in Saudi Arabia basically means that they are not used to their requests/demands being refused unless the request is being made of another arab, so there is an element of "toys being thrown out of the pram" there.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
the participants in the "arab spring" used a variety of tools to facilitate and coordinate their activities - including twitter.
The saudis have since bought a major stake in twitter. I wonder why..
So this article is no doubt just a part of what they are doing to stop being overthrown.
If you don't do it, somebody will. If the price is right, why not that somebody be me ? We are living the biggest capitalist economy of the world. And money makes the world go round, despite what some nut-jobs believe...
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
Why does everyone assume it really was a Saudi agent? Could just as well have been a western agent testing him.
From Ars Technica:
Clearly there is something wrong with the public key infrastructure on the web.
' I know that already and I have same thoughts like you freedom and respecting privacy, actually Saudi has a big terrorist problem and they are misusing these services for spreading terrorism and contacting and spreading their cause that's why I took this and I seek your help. If you are not interested than maybe you are on indirectly helping those who curb the freedom with their brutal activities.'"
Is this a quote from the Saudi government? Sounds like something Canada's Vic Toews would say. Or maybe somebody from Washington D.C.....
I'm confused.....
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
I know who he is now. I get the impression that he's kind of a big deal?
No, it is not luck. You got to pick your parents carefully.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I think the western governments would be a bit more clever than that. They have the resources to develop their own home grown spying tools. They don't need an outside consultant, which is what this guy would have been. Otherwise you'd be hearing about this kind of stuff all the time.
Western governments employ a more than a few outside contractors for 'electronic operations'(and quite a few others for other purposes). They just aren't generally foolish enough to contact known, high-profile, security researchers with a history of publicity for sensitive work...
Messing with national governments can be a very dangerous game. If they found out he was planting a backdoor halfway through the project things could go south in a real hurry, and they'd have to be very incompetent not to have some sort of double blind checks in place. Even if he never entered the country he'd have to avoid it and everywhere it has an extradition treaty with (like India) forever. And what gain? Evidence that they are suppressing dissent, persecuting women? We already know that.
There are less risky ways to bring the fight to them.
Do tell me more about how he could have fought to bring freedom to the suffering Saudi masses...
Was he supposed to take the job, then use his access to covertly haxx0r the mainframe and destroy the Master Control Computer?
I think he's just pointing out their attempt at reverse psychology. For those unfamiliar with it you can think back to Bugs Bunny changing his position to "Rabbit Season" in order to fool Daffy Duck into claiming that it was "Duck Season".
(For those who didn't want to read the linked article, the tl;dr version is that Wahhabism is the Saudi-founded brand of Islam that Al-Qaeda et al espouse; if you've ever heard the term "Islamo-fascism", Wahhabism is the interpretation of Islam it's most likely referring to).
In other words, the Saudi regime is in the position of having to be blatantly two-faced about this; claiming to be cracking down on terrorism to their Western allies, while at the same time being one of the largest supporters of it.
Of course, the West knows this, but likes to pretend otherwise, because there's the inconvenient fact that they have lots of oil which we want. Regarding Western attitudes towards extremist Islamic terrorism, Saudi Arabia isn't merely the elephant in the room in the sense that it's a major factor- as the home and the heart of Wahhabism, it's arguably *the* central factor. Modern Saudi Arabia was *founded* on an agreement between Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism) and the house of Saud to spread his teachings while the latter retained power. From Wikipedia:-
Upon arriving in Diriyya, a pact was made between Ibn Saud and Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, by which Ibn Saud pledged to implement and enforce Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab's teachings, while Ibn Saud and his family would remain the temporal "leaders" of the movement.
Many of the alleged grievances of terrorists supporting Wahhabist organisations such as Al-Qaeda revolve around the supposed US "occupation" of Saudi Arabia. Yet, despite all this, you'll rarely hear Western politicians attack the Saudi regime for their covert tolerance of extremist elements. Why? See the start of this paragraph.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Smart guy, but a bit of a windbag. Expressing himself clearly obviously isn't one of his strong suits.
And TBH, betraying a confidence and humiliating people in public also rates as unethical. I normally don't give a damn about muslims, but that's pretty rude.
That sounds like an excellent way to get assassinated.
You're the dumb one. He didn't post it to /., someone who reads his blog has.
Uh, Saudi Arabia? The country where women are not allowed to move in public without their male warden (usually husband, brother, or father) or they'll both get flogged? Death penalty for homosexuality? Death penalty for spreading non-Islamic religions? Draconic penalties (not excluding death penalty) for bartering in alcohol?
We are not talking about "curb the freedom" here but rather "impact reliably cheap oil prices". Which is the same as far as the U.S. is concerned since whatever happens out of America stays out of America.
In their twisted for of reality they could arrest you for "aiding the enemy".
In other news: Don't go to the States, you could get arrested for downloading a song.
Since the guy was invoking anecdotes, give him this one: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
You're quite the dipshit, aren't you?
Cisco, Bluecoat, or on of the other big firms will "help" them.
No good deed goes unpunished.
They don't do those things in SA. But when I was stationed in SA and these holier than though punks would go to Bahrain they were drinking and whoring like there was no tomorrow.
Just pull a Lawrence and alter the arrangement.
he already knows the saudis sent emails to him. no need to worry about that.
I'd be worried about just traveling to saudi arabia even if they have no beef with me. fuck 'em and their politics - and especially fuck their police.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
In next weeks slashdot I expect to see something about Moxie Marlinspike being asked to deliver a nice shiny yacht to Saudi Arabia and it going horribly wrong when he gets arrested for piracy :)
I dont read
Given that we've had at least what, a half dozen stories about him on the front page of slashdot, at least 2-3 of them in the past 5-6 years?
That would have been akin to suicide. Not only is that a serious contract violation, this is a security breach in a country with both significant funds and extreme interests from several Western and Eastern intelligence agencies.
Pulling off shit like that is a sure ticket to one day being added to list of people who vanished without trace or getting found dead from overdose of drugs in a hotel room. People in intelligence have decades of experience in tracking people like OP when they work for them and finding their backdoors.
(Final line) Why? See the start of this paragraph.
That's what I get for over-editing; this was originally part of the paragraph that started:-
Of course, the West knows this, but likes to pretend otherwise, because there's the inconvenient fact that they have lots of oil which we want.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
You're expecting too much. I've yet to find a business anywhere that didn't send out personal communications with poor spelling and grammar and punctuation, and I've yet to find out that hasn't posted signage on their premises somewhere that is void of typos.
If I see one more " thank's! " in my life.. it won't matter, because one is already too many. how do you even fucking make a mistake like that good fucking.....
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
No, just no.
Good leaders run toward problems, bad leaders hide from them.
Your ethics won't be the only thing in danger.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Was he supposed to take the job, then use his access to covertly haxx0r the mainframe and destroy the Master Control Computer?
Program. Master Control Program, duh.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Shhh... Most people don't remember that.
Cheap storage VM.
This is perfectly right. The reason al Qaeda exists is Wahabism, and the Wahabis came to power in the first place as a part of the partnership with the Sauds. At any rate, the root cause of terrorism is Islam, which at its heart preaches all the things that the Wahabis practice. Sure, implementations vary across the Muslim empire, but the bottom line - encourage terror against Infidels until they accept Islamic supremacy - is pretty much common from Morocco to Mindanao.
If one visits Saudi Arabia, one notes how rigid that country is about being Islamic. During Ramadan, non-Muslims have to eat privately, and similarly, any non-Muslim religious activities have to be clandestine. In Saudi offices, during the Muezzin (call to prayer, which is 5 times a day), it is mandatory for all Muslims (practicing or nominal) to take prayer breaks. It's illegal to build churches, synagogues or any temples of other religions in KSA. But before atheists here get all excited about that, note that Atheism is not the official religion of KSA - Islam is, and it's NEVER illegal to build mosques anywhere. And of course, as is well known, Mecca & Medina are off-limits to non-Muslims - something unparalleled today in other religions: non-Catholics can very much visit the Vatican, non-Jews can visit Jerusalem, non-Hindus can visit Varanasi and so on. Not so in Islam.
Not just that - in Saudi Arabia, any material that has nothing about religion but is judged by their equivalent of the KGB as being 'un-Islamic' has a good chance of being impounded. I've heard horror stories of people on ships that were just in transit in Saudi ports who got their books impounded for that very reason. If al Qaeda ever did take over in Riyadh and establish their Caliphate, how much worse could they conceivably be? There is already no religious freedom in that country, and those troglodytes are just offering more Islam.
In short, just like in Syria, there is no right side to pick in Saudi Arabia - they are all Islamic fanatics who want to perfect a theocracy and export Jihad worldwide. The Saudis actively do it - Aramco, which is wholly owned by the Saudi government, funds dawa (Islamic proselytization) worldwide, and also funds Jihadi groups, like the Sunni rebels in Syria. Those Sunni rebels are directly allied with the Muslim Brotherhood and al Qaeda, so it would make no difference who runs Riyadh. (Of course, with the US itself supporting al Qaeda in Syria, it loses any rationale to speak against terror, especially when it steadfastly refuses to recognize the link between jihad terror and Islam)
That's nice, except that the issue with the Saudi regime *itself* is that it's as much a part of the problem of terrorism as it is of the solution. That is, it presents two different faces to the world- the one it likes to present to the West, and the one it likes to present to the Wahhabist elements within the country. They need to not merely tolerate, but pander to the latter in order to remain power.
(For those who didn't want to read the linked article, the tl;dr version is that Wahhabism is the Saudi-founded brand of Islam that Al-Qaeda et al espouse; if you've ever heard the term "Islamo-fascism", Wahhabism is the interpretation of Islam it's most likely referring to).
In other words, the Saudi regime is in the position of having to be blatantly two-faced about this; claiming to be cracking down on terrorism to their Western allies, while at the same time being one of the largest supporters of it.
Of course, the West knows this, but likes to pretend otherwise, because there's the inconvenient fact that they have lots of oil which we want. Regarding Western attitudes towards extremist Islamic terrorism, Saudi Arabia isn't merely the elephant in the room in the sense that it's a major factor- as the home and the heart of Wahhabism, it's arguably *the* central factor. Modern Saudi Arabia was *founded* on an agreement between Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism) and the house of Saud to spread his teachings while the latter retained power. From Wikipedia:-
Upon arriving in Diriyya, a pact was made between Ibn Saud and Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, by which Ibn Saud pledged to implement and enforce Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab's teachings, while Ibn Saud and his family would remain the temporal "leaders" of the movement.
Many of the alleged grievances of terrorists supporting Wahhabist organisations such as Al-Qaeda revolve around the supposed US "occupation" of Saudi Arabia. Yet, despite all this, you'll rarely hear Western politicians attack the Saudi regime for their covert tolerance of extremist elements. Why? See the start of this paragraph.
Except the alleged Wahabi's (another made up term) aren't the ones performing terrorist activities. That would be the Khawarij/kharijites.
From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shia Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death. The Kharijites were also known historically as the Shurh ()not to be confused with shr!, literally meaning "the buyers" and understood within the context of Islamic scripture and philosophy to mean "those who have traded the mortal life (al-Dunya) for the other life [with God] (al-Aakhirah)", which, unlike the term Kharijite, was one that many Kharijites used to describe themselves.
It's not a made up term. The term comes from the 17th century Islamic leader in Arabia Wahab, who followed the Hanbali doctrines of Islamic jurisprudence, and advocated a strict following of the original islam. The Sauds allied with them in the 20th century, and formed a coalition which took over the bulk of the Arabian peninsula, except for places like Yemen, Oman, Trucial States, Qatar, Bahrein & Kuwait.
Now that the Saudi telco dude has publicly dissed their Kings, off with his head.
The US supporting foreign kings... that's rich
well if you wont fix "our " problem ... you are the problem
Saudi Arabia, the Siamese twin of Israel, is the most depraved regime on the planet. Rape slaves were legal and bought/sold in Saudi Arabia openly until the law was changed in 1962. Read that again. No type. NINETEEN SIXTY TWO. Rape slaves were the 'concubines' of the most powerful members of the Saudi ruling elite- monstrous perverts placed in power by the British, and kept in power by the Americans. The fake version of Islam used by the House of Saud, the 'rulers' of Saudi Arabia, allows Saudi Wahabists (followers of Wahabism, which is actually a form of Judaism, NOT Islam, which is why Saudi Arabia and Israel operate as the twin favourites of the USA) to own as many sex slaves as they desire.
The most powerful Saudi that the average American is likely to know is the so-called 'Bandar' Bush- the most intimate foreign friend of the Bush family (you know, the one that gave you Yanks THREE presidents- the third you will be getting soon). The mother of 'Bandar' Bush was a rape slave. In Saudi Arabia, you see, they don't have to secretly kidnap young girls off the street, and hide them in their basement for years.
Today, Saudi rape slaves are mostly the foreign domestic workers from poor Muslim nations. Before a domestic worker is allowed to leave Saudi Arabia, she is forcibly confined, stripped, and subject (against her will) to intimate medical examination. Signs of sexual intercourse or, of course, pregnancy, automatically mean multiple flogging and a long term of imprisonment. However, if she has been compliant to her 'owner', her 'owner' will give her a 'pass' that allows her to leave the kingdom regardless of her 'condition'.
All women in Saudi Arabia, including citizens, are the POSSESSION of nominated male/males. In the case of a citizen, her owner is her Father, other male relative, the State, or her husband. It is illegal for a woman to have no 'owner'. Her 'owner' has complete control over her life. She may not leave the house, get an education, or get married without EXPLICIT permission of her owner. Disobeying her owner means a trip to a reformatory, and a severe flogging.
Now shills are going to attack this comment and tell you of all the 'humane' owners in Saudi Arabia who would never dream of abusing their female possessions. They are the same scum who defended slavery in the USA by describing all the 'kindly' slave owners. Of course, not every woman in Saudi Arabia is owned by a raping violet pig, but every woman IS owned, and her fate is in the hands of her owner.
The power of the depraved Saudi regime is rapidly spreading across the Muslim world. Team Obama and Team Blair destroy secular modern nations like Libya and Syria so extremist Saudi forces can be given control over these populations. Did you know that Saudi religious 'judges' (the ones that convict and sentence women to floggings) operate in many different Muslim nations. Did you know that it is the goal of the US administration to get Saudi judges operating in EVERY Muslim nation?
Well?
If security and tracking of mobiles matter - where is the open source version of Android that tries to be more secure?
who believe on this news? i am not buying it ... not if this guy swear on this mother.
No, Saudi Arabia is very westernized in terms of dress and hygiene, as well as technology. People usually go there to strike it rich, because westerners get paid a ton of money to work on projects there. Still though, in the end they follow islamic traditions, many of which have horrible consequences if you violate.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
oh but can you immiagine how much they would disagree with your society.
a strict interpretation does not mean terrorism!
And the root cause of Islam is Christianity, and the root cause of that was Judaism. Don't single out the new kid among the Abrahamic religions. They are all utterly vile and evil.
Only problem with that tu-quoque argument is that Mohammed was neither a Christian nor a Jew. Islam was and is nothing more than the cult of Mohammed - just read how many times the Quran says that Muslims are to obey allah by obeying Mohammed
How many Christian or Jewish groups are throwing acid on womens faces, beheading people for heresy, or suicide bombing crowded markets because someone in the crowd had a minor deviation in religious observance?
The head of Saudi Arabia's religious police has warned citizens against using Twitter, which is rising in popularity among Saudis.
Sheikh Abdul Latif Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh said anyone using social media sites - and especially Twitter - "has lost this world and his afterlife".
Twitter was the platform for those who did not have any platform, he said.
BBC News Middle East
Note to ACs: I won't mod you up, even if you are being funny or insightful. So take a chance! It's not real life!