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Judges Debate Patents and If New Software Makes a Computer a "New Machine"

First time accepted submitter ectoman writes "A third party steps into a financial transaction to make sure all parties exchange funds at the same time and as expected. Can you patent this process? What if the third party is a computer? Rob Tiller, vice president and general counsel for Red Hat, details a recent court ruling on this very matter—one that has critical implications for the future of software patents, and one that divided the judges involved. Tiller writes that: 'The judges mostly agreed that the idea of managing settlement risk with a third party was abstract such that by itself it could not be patented. They differed, though, on whether using a general purpose computer for managing settlement risk meant that the patents avoided invalidity based on abstraction.' Interestingly, some judges suggested that a computer becomes a 'new machine' every time it loads different software."

247 comments

  1. Genius! by WillgasM · · Score: 3, Interesting

    1.Make it so that every time you load a new piece of software you invalidate the license of every other piece of software in an endless recursive loop.
    2.????
    3.Profit
    4.goto 1

    1. Re:Genius! by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      The death knell of windows in 4 steps?

    2. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      i often wonder when someone posts something so fucken stupid; are they a troll or are they really that fucken stupid.

    3. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Microsoft Marketing Department's collective wet dream in 4 steps, more like.

    4. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's odd, because when I see someone write "fucken" I can't help but wonder the exact same thing.

    5. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This "is it a new one now?" business is not at all unique to computers. The problem applies to basically everything humans encounter, since a "thing" is usually a high-level abstraction of an arrangement of simpler parts.

      If I swap out my engine, is it a new car? What if I just swap out a tire?

      If I swap out a few of my neurons, am I a new person? What I swap out my whole brain?

      How many grains of salt must I swap out before my heap of salt is a new heap of salt?

      These questions are intended to be rhetorical. They demonstrate that when you group a bunch of separate things together and think of it as a single object, you have this problem.

      Usually the resolution is arbitrary, and based on our commonsense intuitions about the essence of the definition. A human is much more a personality than it is a body, so swapping out a brain obviously makes you a new person whereas swapping out an arm does not (the problem remains unresolved for the swapping out of specific subsections of a brain). Similarly, a computer is much more a motherboard than it is anything else, so swapping THAT out gives you a new machine, but swapping out any other component (including the software) does not make it a new machine (IMO).

    6. Re:Genius! by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      > Posting as AC just amplifies that fact

      Not posting as AC doesn't change the fact that you're trolling. I award you no points.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    7. Re:Genius! by interval1066 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since the purpose of a computer is to run programs, asking us to accept that a computer is a new computer everytime it runs a new program seems like a bit of a stretch, and leads me to believe that some judges still don't quite get computers.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    8. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      goto is not a recommended control structure.

    9. Re:Genius! by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apparently Plutarch already knew this little puzzle called the ship of Theseus problem.
      I'm highly confident that some US judges will finally put those those annoying logicians and philosophers to rest and give us the ultimate correct solution.

    10. Re:Genius! by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      I'm just saying that a favorable ruling here would insta kill windows, especially on the business side of things where things are inter-dependent and integrated to a degree that sometimes involves licensing.

      Then again this would be all but impossible to enforce as most software is not aware of the software around it. Thus a favorable ruling here is highly improbable. It does seem like what they're getting at is the whole abstract software patent argument, which labeling computers as new machines per software program is just not a viable solution for.

    11. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i often wonder when someone posts something so fucken stupid; are they a troll or are they really that fucken stupid.

      Come on down to Hank's, where, for a limited time only, you can try our unique dish comprised of a chicken stuffed with a duck stuffed with a finch. We call it the "fucken". It's sure to set your taste buds a-cluckin' when you taste our brand new fucken. Order today and get a free side of fucken fries.

    12. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a whole new machine, but it has new capabilities. Software isn't just a paint job, sometimes, for computers. In many ways software changes computers much more than the hardware. That is why we use them. That is something lost to us at times. You make a deal allowing someone to hull as much as their car holds (trunk). They come back with it modified to look like a poor-man's caballero (truck like car/file compression added to computer). Those are two different scenarios.

      We of the nerd inclination tend to just accept this is true and base. Those who aren't entirely aware of what computers are, I suspect most of the RIAA/MPAA at times, don't. This question is a sign of progress and realization of what they are dealing with.

    13. Re:Genius! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Let's suppose that loading a machine with a different set of softwares actually did "create" a new machine.

      In that case, each new implementation would be the user's creation. That's right - it's the end user's unique creation, not that of some programmer halfway around the world who coded the individual program.

      Or, if not the end user (in a corporate setting) then it would be the creation of the corporation's IT department. Copyrightable and patentable, I would guess. Set the machine up to your very precise specifications, register your creation, and NO ONE can use that same setup unless they license it from you!

      Or, we could all fall back twenty and punt, with the admission that this "new machine" business is absurd.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    14. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Since the purpose of a computer is to run programs, asking us to accept that a computer is a new computer everytime it runs a new program seems like a bit of a stretch, and leads me to believe that some judges still don't quite get computers."

      The purpose of a house is to house people, but if a new owner rearranges the walls a bit, they might get a visit from an official claiming that it's a new house and he didn't get a fucking permit.

    15. Re:Genius! by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Yeas ago, I read of a lawsuit that posed this very question: it concerned who owned the original version of a race car (a Shelby Cobra, IIRC). One of the cars was modified and as part of the modifications, the part of the chassis that had the chassis number stamp (or plate) was discarded. Someone else retrieved the discarded piece of the chassis and built a car around it. Since the value of an original Cobra is much greater than the cost to build a replica, this would be a financially viable project. There were then 2 competing registrations for the "same" car at the DMV. As I recall, the car that was modified was judged to be the original and the registration of the other (the one build around the discarded piece of the chassis) was voided.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    16. Re:Genius! by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      So... when I get exchange 2010 running on windows server 2008 r2 I'd be able to patent that? Holy shit would I be rich!

      I totally acknowledge that there is a huge gaping hole in our hundred year old patent system in regards to software, which was inconceivable at the time of the patent system's implementation, but even if we did this moving forward (ignoring trillions in existing assets we'd just leave alone)... it just doesn't really make sense does it?

      What about the LAMP stack? Would I be able to patent getting it running on windows? :P

      What does make sense is judges talking about computers with the skills to check their email on that thingamajig with the blue E letter, and not having a clue.

    17. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purpose of a house is to house people, but if a new owner rearranges the walls a bit, they might get a visit from an official claiming that it's a new house and he didn't get a fucking permit.

      If the owner paints the walls and rearranges the furniture, however, he probably is in the clear, which seems a much more appropriate analogy. Or are all your computers comprised of reconfigurable FPGAs or the like?

      Of course, right at the end of the post there you did let us all know you're an idiot, so perhaps no further clarification of the point will help your complete lack of understanding.

    18. Re:Genius! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      A ship changes with hardware changes, and with crew changes. Removing as few as one crew members can change the character of a ship drastically. Likewise, the addition of one or more crew members. You may change a lot of minor physical parts of the ship, and not notice any real change. But changing a major structural member is almost certain to change her handling characteristics. You cannot duplicate a ship's keel precisely, no matter how hard you try.

      Automobiles are mass produced, and you might think that two identical cars coming off the same assembly line on the same day would be indistinguishable. But - try to find two identical cars whose handling and performance characteristics are identical. It's not likely to happen.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    19. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The software on the computer is essential for understanding the computers _actual_ purpose. Change that software, and the utility/purpose of the computer changes dramatically.

    20. Re:Genius! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Informative

      "I'm just saying that a favorable ruling here would insta kill windows, especially on the business side of things where things are inter-dependent and integrated to a degree that sometimes involves licensing."

      F*cking clueless judges. There is precedent going back well over 100 years that software is irrelevant to the nature of the machine. Examples: different cards in a Jacquard loom do not make it a "different" loom. Different player piano rolls do not make it a "different" piano. Etc. There are actual court decisions to this effect.

      Not to mention that it is also common sense.

    21. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You've made the same mistake as everyone else in this article. The judge's point is a reductio ad absurdum.

      Software is not per se patentable. However, legal precedent supports the patenting of the machine that is the combination of the software and the computer it runs on. Which is effectively a software patent.

      If you accept this, then you also must accept that every "software + computer" combination is a new machine because patents require novelty. If it wasn't a new machine you couldn't patent it.

      However, as you and everyone else has pointed out, this is absurd, which negates the premise that the combination of software and a computer is patentable.

      In other words, the judge is making a moderately subtle argument that software patents ought to be unlawful.

      Everyone here who has accused the judge of being ignorant should take a long look in the mirror.

    22. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      World's most expensive failed troll...

    23. Re:Genius! by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well let's take a process like "quenching steel" compared to regular steel, you still have all the same basic ingredients, you heat it up and cool it down but really the rapid quenching brings out new and novel properties in the steel. It surely should qualify for a patent, it's not like the regular steel smith has a patent for everything his smithy could do - yet the smith has never done or even thought about doing. In the same way it would be absurd to patent the Turing complete machine and say all software is merely the application of machine states. On the other end of the spectrum if you add 0.01% table salt and claim your quenched steel+salt isn't infringing on any patent because it only says steel, the courts will laugh at your attempt to trivially avoid the patent. Most software is like that, trivial changes of inputs, instructions, ordering etc. are "new" but not in any sense novel while software with new functionality that's never been done before sounds novel and non-obvious to me.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    24. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you'd go tell his mom that if you weren't busy getting fucked in the ass by his dad.
       
      You're a retard and a fucking troll.

    25. Re:Genius! by twistofsin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I found their proposal interesting until I considered whether my television was a new machine every time the program changed. Computers are machines that host multiple other machines within them. I think it's more accurate to call a program a machine in itself.

    26. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're so fucking stupid to think that any judgement handed down is going to "kill" 90% of the workstation marketshare. That would be like a judge ruling an instant and irreversible embargo on the use of any crude oil based product. It would be ignored and the government would swat any asshat who made such a proclamation like a fly.
       
      You're a brainless fuck. Go back to sucking some more fantasy fanboi dick. It's fucks like you who make a laughing stock of the rest of us.

    27. Re:Genius! by pepty · · Score: 2, Informative

      In other words, the judge is making a moderately subtle argument that software patents ought to be unlawful.

      No, the judges were serious on that point. FTA:

      At the same time, a group of four judges strongly disagreed on the significance of the computer limitation. Chief Judge Rader, writing for this group, said that "a computer programmed to perform a specific function is a new machine with individualized circuitry created and used by the operation of the software." Similarly Judge Moore wrote for this same group of four judges that "a general purpose computer in effect becomes a special purpose computer once it is programmed to perform particular functions pursuant to instructions from program software," on the theory that software "effectively rewires a computer."

      Judge Moore’s tone was in places apocalyptic. She worried that Judge Lourie’s approach would mean "the death of hundreds of thousands of patents" and would "decimate the electronics and software industries." She said, "There has never been a case which could do more damage to the patent system than this one." Chief Judge Rader, in an unusual second opinion titled "Additional Reflections," stated that without patent protection "investors would quickly opt to put their resources" into some field safer than technology.

      Lets see how bad this could get. Somehow, somewhere there is a business method patent that claims the process of using the idea that "a computer becomes a 'new machine' every time it loads different software." as a way to secure a software patent...

      Either every software patent applicant and patent owner would have to pay licensing fees ...

    28. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both Rader and Moore have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a computer is. Loading software does not change the circuitry of the machine or the nature of it's fundamental operation. Software is symbolic data loaded into memory which is then manipulated according to the fixed rules of the processor architecture in question, and other symbolic data that may already be in memory. Computing is an abstract process that operates on symbols. A general-purpose-algorithm (computer instruction set) will carry out or emulate specific-purpose algorithms when fed appropriate input, but this does not transform the machine. There is no way to tell weather this has happened merely by examining the voltage at the gates of the machine. It's only possible once you've assigned symbolic meetings to the voltages, and to the data words..

    29. Re:Genius! by narcc · · Score: 1

      There are actual court decisions to this effect

      Do you know any off-hand or can you find one or two?

    30. Re:Genius! by symbolic · · Score: 1

      It's a very big stretch, in my opinion. What they're saying is tantamount to asserting that every time I load different plates onto a printing press, it becomes a "new machine". Nope.

    31. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I switched from Windows to Linux. It feels like a new computer. Just saying.

    32. Re:Genius! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Do you know any off-hand or can you find one or two?"

      I don't have case citations at hand but you can look them up. In particular, find copyright cases surrounding player piano rolls, in which the courts ruled that it made absolutely no difference whether copyrighted works were used to control a machine.

      John Philip Sousa was famously involved in some of those suits.

    33. Re:Genius! by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Or you might accept that spelling as a regionalism; whether the poster was from a region where that is the casual pronunciation during some of his formative years, used it for some effect, or really is that fucken stupid is your call, of course, because not everyone here is as fucken smart as you are.

    34. Re:Genius! by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "individualized circuitry created and used by the operation of the software"

      This judge is a fucking moron. Software doesn't create circuitry within the machine itself.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    35. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember reading about the piano roll cases back in the 2000's... I remember it was brought up due to cd/dvd copyrights. From memory it's correct - gonna have to look that all up again...

    36. Re:Genius! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      But what if the AI bunch one day succeed in creating a Strong AI on a conventional computer?

      Would different Strong AIs on the same hardware still be considered the same computer?

      --
    37. Re:Genius! by indeterminator · · Score: 2

      Next time when you start a program from Windows start menu, watch closely your computer. You can see that there are no elves taking the old computer and bringing a new one. So it's still the same computer.

      However, if the software being started is a truely remarkable, almost magical software such as a Strong AI (brought to you by Strong AI labs, patent pending), then who knows, maybe there will be elves.

    38. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's not like quenched steel compared to regular steel. I don't submerge my computer in water/oil to get different properties from it. I don't do anything special to it. It stays the same all the time, only its use changes. It's more like taking a steel rebar and using it either as a poker or a walking stick and then finding another use for it other then the ones we knew before. Is that patentable? I don't think so.

      it would be absurd to patent the Turing complete machine and say all software is merely the application of machine states

      But that's exactly what it is. Software should not be patentable at all. Software IS merely an application of machine states (another name for software is actually "application" - this should give you a clue)

      Finally, to give you a crude analogy in return - if I swing a pendulum and start measuring its position every second, I don't get a new pendulum every time, and certainly I should not be able to patent merely the measured position of such pendulum, even if I can find a use for it. I should be able to claim authorship of such state of the pendulum that gives me and everyone else the properties that I'm after, and then charge everyone if they try to reproduce it, but that's covered by copyrights and not patents.

    39. Re:Genius! by qzzpjs · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. The plates in this case are input to the machine, not the machine itself. The machine is the device that takes the input and produces the output. Different printing processes may use that input in completely different mechanical ways to produce the paper output and those may be patentable.

      In a computer's case, they believe the software is the machine because it takes input data and produces some output data that has been processed in some way. It fits their definition of a machine as far as patents go. But this is horrible in the software world because you could then argue that every formula you use in an Excel worksheet is a machine by that definition and that's absurd.

    40. Re:Genius! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Apparently Plutarch already knew this little puzzle called the ship of Theseus problem.

      I'm highly confident that some US judges will finally put those those annoying logicians and philosophers to rest and give us the ultimate correct solution.

      The ultimate correct solution is that the definition of "ship of Theseus" is not entirely fixed, so neither is the point where it becomes something else. And that means that lawyers are exactly the correct people to decide the matter, seeing how it depends on splitting hairs over semantics.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    41. Re:Genius! by Peter+Mork · · Score: 1

      I think there is general agreement that if a person were to encode a program in silicon (i.e., as a custom chip), that invention would be patentable. Now let's relax the physical implementation: Can we patent a program that relies on programmable chips - that reconfigures the hardware on the fly? If not, why is this program any different than the original program? Why must the program be fully hard-coded to be patentable?

      Relaxing the implementation details even further: Can we patent a program that relies on general-purpose hardware? If not, why is this program any different than the one that uses programmable chips?

      I confess that I am uncomfortable with software patents, but I'm willing to acknowledge that I lack a firm basis for my unease.

    42. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went to a music store and there was a rack of electric guitars that were all the same model. I had seen the guitar (they were onsale for cheap) and wanted one this would be my first electric guitar. The sales man told to try all of them because each one sounded different. I'm not sure what the difference in the hardware of the last guitar was but for some reason it had far more sustain than any of the others and it is the one I bought. A few years later I realized it was caused by a defect in the ground which I eventually had to replace. I soldered it multiple times until it sounded similar but never managed to get it to sound the same as did.

    43. Re:Genius! by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The problem with your idea of fixing something in silicon is that anything which can be expressed as a computer program can be "fixed in silicon". I'm not even talking something like programmable logic such as FPGAs and such (which clearly are just as "programmable" as RAM), but that you could even take complex software like an operating system and convert it to purely AND/OR gates. Heck, you could even turn a Mozart symphony into nothing but gates and a speaker and sound better than a live performance.

      This is sort of the point of Turing machines in general, as they are that malleable. That is what makes them useful, and substantially blurs the line between software and hardware.

      If the device does something which can't be done in software.... you might have a point. There clearly are hardware concepts which can't be done in software except as a pure simulation, but the reverse that anything done in software can be done in hardware should be an axiom. The list of things which can be done in software is pretty large though, so you need to be careful even there.

    44. Re:Genius! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      There should be a formally named principle about how you can't assume that something is said in jest just because we perceive it to be obviously absurd. You are bound to find someone that will take any wild statement seriously at face value.

      You never know when you are dealing with that kind of person.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    45. Re:Genius! by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      I have a friend that built a Stearman (a biplane used as a trainer during WWII). It is a certified airplane, so everything has to be exactly like the original. He started with nothing but a dataplate. Once he built the entire airplane, the FAA considered it to be the original.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    46. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Contrary to popular opinion, judges aren't allowed to decide cases on common sense. They MUST decide cases according to the law. The law is not always written to comport with common sense.

    47. Re:Genius! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Abused much?

    48. Re:Genius! by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Finally, to give you a crude analogy in return - if I swing a pendulum and start measuring its position every second, I don't get a new pendulum every time...

      Right. Arguably, every incoming ip frame is a new machine state, should we then patent the machine every time it processes a new ip frame? Of course not.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    49. Re:Genius! by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Virtual machines anyone? I run applications like VirtualBox and vmplayer all the time.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    50. Re:Genius! by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      ...watch closely your computer. You can see that there are no elves taking the old computer and bringing a new one.

      lolz!

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    51. Re:Genius! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      I think there is general agreement that if a person were to encode a program in silicon (i.e., as a custom chip), that invention would be patentable.

      I don't know about "general agreement", but this is far from unanimous. Where is the non-obvious step in turning an abstract (i.e. non-patentable) circuit diagram or HDL into a custom chip? If you introduce a new type of logic element, like a specially optimized transistor, that's one thing, but a physical chip (FPGA or ASIC) produced by applying standard procedures to an abstract circuit design doesn't seem like something that should be patentable to me.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    52. Re:Genius! by Peter+Mork · · Score: 1

      I think you've hinted at the problem. There's little difference (especially now) between a description of an object and the object itself. If I were to design a new brake on paper and then implement that brake with steel and rubber, would I lose my right to patent the device because the transition from CAD to physical realization is obvious? When the patent system was designed the distinction between the abstract and the concrete was fairly obvious. Once we invented devices that could encode ideas and turn them into things we started running into problems.

      I appreciate the argument, but it seems like it would invalidate pretty much every patent. (Including drug patents because drugs are designed in silico, so perhaps it's a net positive. :-)

    53. Re:Genius! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      I appreciate the argument, but it seems like it would invalidate pretty much every patent.

      I would be happy with that result, but I don't think that's the case. The problem with the circuit in the example is that it's really just an abstract formula which happens to be represented in the form of a circuit diagram involving ideal components, and the reduction to a physical chip does not involve anything innovative. (If anything, circuit diagrams are even more obviously math than software is. Any circuit diagram is isomorphic to a system of equations.)

      Simply designing or simulating something on a computer would not render it unpatentable. Having nothing innovative to offer beyond the abstract design or simulation would. In essence, I'm saying that the natural laws—including mathematics, and by extension software and abstract circuit designs and anything else equivalent to math—have to be taken as a given when considering obviousness. To be patentable, an invention has to offer something more than just the plain natural laws, such as a particular configuration of matter or a physical process for producing it.

      Taking software and running it on a computer is always obvious. Taking an abstract circuit design and implementing it with standard circuit elements is always obvious. A previously unknown configuration of matter which acts as a more efficient transistor may be non-obvious. A new manufacturing process to produce a specific alloy or drug may be non-obvious.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    54. Re:Genius! by nbritton · · Score: 1

      The judge is viewing the computer hardware and software as a system, and he is correct in believing that substantive changes to a component create a new machine. Firmware and things like FPGA chips completely blur the line. I had a nee jerk reaction to this judges opinion at first, but if you view a computer as a blank canvas it makes sense. As a systems engineer my primary concern is f(x)=y, so I don't see a distinction between hardware, software, or peopleware that is used between the input of a process and it's output.

  2. The reason they are judges... by TheBestMerlinEver · · Score: 0

    Is that they do not have to understand the technical stuff. Patent Judges are the reason for the problem. If they were really qualified, they would not have a low-paying federal job.

    1. Re:The reason they are judges... by niado · · Score: 4, Informative

      Is that they do not have to understand the technical stuff. Patent Judges are the reason for the problem. If they were really qualified, they would not have a low-paying federal job.

      You are thinking of a Patent Examiner, not a "judge". These are two very different governmental positions.

    2. Re:The reason they are judges... by ron_ivi · · Score: 1

      very different

      So you're saying he should have changed the word 'low' to 'high'?

    3. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They are, of course, right. An algorithm is conceptually the same as a description of a machine for executing that algorithm, whether you draw logic gates to execute your algorithm, or solder together transistors, or write Python.

      As a mathematician working on algorithms right now, I say they are right.

      However.

      Algorithms shouldn't be patentable, no matter how they are represented. But that's a political decision, not a technical one.

    4. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that's a political decision, not a technical one.

      I think this is the important thing many people miss in this discussion - there is no technical reason why a novel "software defined radio" should be unpatentable when you could burn the logic into a chip and have a novel "hardware radio chip," that would be patentable. Flip the complaints about how "on a computer magically makes something a new patent" on its head, and ask yourself: why should "on a computer" magically make something *UN*-patentable?

      These are political and legal decisions, not technical. And no amount of technical wrangling can change the fact that just about anything you can do in a piece of software can be burned into a physical chip, which WOULD be subject to patenting. Making the decision to say "there must be purpose-built hardware for executing the software instructions for it to patentable," but that's a political distinction, not a technical one - as you've correctly noted.

    5. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "You are thinking of a Patent Examiner [wikipedia.org], not a "judge". These are two very different governmental positions."

              A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop in San Francisco’s Chinatown. Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs.

              "Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it."

              "You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I’ll take the rat."

              The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store, two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he’s walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, and soon breaks into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars. Rats by the thousands are at his heels, and as he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, he panics and starts to run full tilt. No matter how fast he runs, the rats keep up, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but millions, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water’s edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is behind him. Making a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm while he hurls the bronze rat into San Francisco Bay with the other, as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of rats surges over the breakwater into the sea, where they drown.

              Shaken and mumbling, he makes his way back to the antique shop.

              "Ah, so you’ve come back for the rest of the story," says the owner.

              "No," says the tourist, "I was wondering if you have a bronze judge.

    6. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is, what algorithms should be patent-able? If I can point a programmer at a set of requirements, pay him some money, and get a product 99% of the time, then surely those algorithms would be "obvious" to implement. Maybe they need to raise the bar for obviousness/novelty so that truly novel algorithms get rewarded, but the plug-and-chug patents like an online shopping cart get laughed out of the room.

    7. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fail. There is no technical reasons for patents in the first place.
      Legally, I see no benefit to society to be able to patent what can be accomplished in software if it's just a simple conversion from software logic into solder. What's so inventive about that and why should other people be prevented to come up with the same idea?

    8. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is the technical aspect of legal consistency. When laws (be it patent laws or any other laws) start conflicting with each other, or when laws start hindering society in some way, it is a technical matter. And when it has been shown time and again that patent laws can be abused, then it is a technical matter of the laws in question. It's not just political, only it's not information-theory-technical, but rather legal-technical.

    9. Re:The reason they are judges... by pepty · · Score: 1

      Is that they do not have to understand the technical stuff. Patent Judges are the reason for the problem. If they were really qualified, they would not have a low-paying federal job.

      You are thinking of a Patent Examiner, not a "judge". These are two very different governmental positions.

      err .. 80-110K per year ain't bad to work from home. For chemistry and life sciences to be considered as an applicant you pretty much need to have a masters or a PhD, some industry experience, and some experience in IP.

    10. Re:The reason they are judges... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost, but you miss the key distinction. Soldering together resistors or building a machine does not make the algorithm. The same set of transistors could just as easily be on types logical gate if the high voltage means true, and another type of logic gate if low voltage means true. Algorithms manipulate symbolic data however you choose to represent that data and implements the maniplutions (turing machine, human with a set of strict instructions or with lambda calculus.)

    11. Re:The reason they are judges... by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Fail. There is no technical reasons for patents in the first place.
      Legally, I see no benefit to society to be able to patent what can be accomplished in software if it's just a simple conversion from software logic into solder. What's so inventive about that and why should other people be prevented to come up with the same idea?

      Then again, what real benefit does a patent even on a mechanical device actually give to society? Supposedly what you have is a trade off of somebody publishing detailed information about a device (like a light bulb, an airplane, or a phonograph... all have received patents in one form or another over the years) in exchange for getting exclusive rights to manufacture that device.

      As a practical matter, the patent system of today really doesn't help out in terms of helping a private individual to be able to have that sort of market exclusivity or even get their idea brought to market at all. The patent system itself if broken not just for software patents, for for patents of every kind.

  3. wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    If we can slap 'on a computer' onto an old idea to patent it, can we slap on another 'on a computer' to patent it for virtual machines?

    1. Re: wow by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

      Writing up a patent now...

    2. Re:wow by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      and on a mobile device, then on a virtual machine on a mobile device, then on the internet, then in the cloud(public cloud privet and hybrid) i wonder if we could modify the corporate buzzword bullshit generator to file patents applications... (this idea is patent pending)

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    3. Re: wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only one? You're missing something.

    4. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go read In Re Bilski and then come back. You're asking questions that have already been partially addressed.

    5. Re:wow by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      If we can slap 'on a computer' onto an old idea to patent it, can we slap on another 'on a computer' to patent it for virtual machines?

      Yo dawg...

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    6. Re: wow by pepty · · Score: 1

      The claims are numbered recursively. Should make office actions fun.

    7. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to patent a 'process by which the words 'on a computer' are appended to an idea recursively to whatever depth is most convenient for any particular lawsuit'.

  4. I dunno by marcello_dl · · Score: 5, Funny

    As much as I hate trivial patents in any field, I must admit that when I wipe windows off a pc and put debian on it, it sure feels like a new machine...

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    1. Re:I dunno by Mike+Frett · · Score: 2

      haha yeah I know what you mean. Always thinking you need to defrag, clean out temp files etc to gain more speed because something didn't 'feel right'. Wiped Windows, Installed Xubuntu, realized absolutely nothing was wrong with my Computer except Windows. Makes me wonder if that's why some people buy a new machine, because of the dreaded Windows degrading performance over time. Well, that and along with having to run software they won't update anymore, AKA Forced Upgrade.

      After almost a year of extremely heavy use in Linux, It's just as fast as the day I Installed it. Now that's real innovation. As far as fragmentation in Linux? Old timers were right, e4defrag reports that absolutely nothing is fragmented. And no, new Software doesn't make a Computer new since the Software totally relies on the Hardware. But when you change out all your components for new goodies and smell that new scent, that's what makes a Computer New.

    2. Re:I dunno by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rated funny, but think about it.
      We have individuals that never see the hardware, but they interact with the "machine". When the software is different, does something else, or the same thing but differently, enough that the enduser can observe the difference, they can safely assume, they're interacting with another machine.

    3. Re:I dunno by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At the height of a political corruption trial, the prosecuting attorney attacked a witness. "Isn't it true," he bellowed, "that you accepted five thousand dollars to compromise this case?"

      The witness stared out the window, as though he hadn't heard the question.

      "Isn't it true that you accepted five thousand dollars to compromise this case?" the lawyer repeated.

      The witness still did not respond.

      Finally, the judge leaned over and said, "Sir, please answer the question."

      "Oh," the startled witness said, "I thought he was talking to you."

    4. Re:I dunno by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After almost a year of extremely heavy use in Linux, It's just as fast as the day I Installed it.

      I think I've had my old, used tower someone gave me that was "broken" for 3 or fours years; I put kubuntu on it when I got it (all that was broken was Windows). About two years ago I bought a laptop with twice the CPU and twice the memory running Windows 7. I've just been too busy/lazy to put Linux on it.

      Two years later the tower is just as fast as it was 3 years ago when I installed kubuntu and the Windows machine is a dog. I can boot the tower to a full desktop with the apps and docs open faster than the laptop will become useable coming out of sleep mode.

      I suspect Microsoft does this on purpose to sell upgrades* as you said, but considering how poorly designed their software is, I doubt they're competent to do something like that.

      *When I went from W98 to WXP, during installation the screen bragged "your computer will be faster!"

      Well, I'd just reinstalled 98 on a wiped drive... XP was slower.

  5. Computers becoming *new machines* not unique... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The computer is a new machine many times every picosecond as the data in the registers change, the data in ram changes, the data on the hard drive changes, the data flowing through network interfaces changes, etc...

    Since the computer is *new* billions, if not trillions of times a second, then software doesn't make it unique.

    Yet again, the clueless making decisions on things they cannot comprehend.

    1. Re:Computers becoming *new machines* not unique... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The software very much makes it unique. You can have the same data in the registers, the same data in RAM, but if one bit in flash is different then you have a unique system through the every step of the execution path. I don't know what definition of "unique" you use, but I guarantee that the no one else in the world has a Galaxy S3 that's in the same state as my GS3. You can argue over whether or not that uniqueness has any inherent value, but stating it's not unique just makes you look as unfamiliar with the subject as you claim the "clueless" are.

    2. Re:Computers becoming *new machines* not unique... by Livius · · Score: 1

      The human brain changes the same way, at a rate of probably thousands of time a second.

      If that mattered, think how it would affect things like acceptance of a contract or even criminal intent.

    3. Re:Computers becoming *new machines* not unique... by gagol · · Score: 1

      So, I have a new display 60 times a second? A new car engine 700-5000 time a second? The computer is a huge calculator. You don't have a different calculator every time you enter a new equation, its capability is the same.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    4. Re:Computers becoming *new machines* not unique... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or more simply, you could just ask weather flipping your lights on and off makes a new house? Even if we consider it a new house, does it matter? Does it change any vital characteristic of house as to make it substantially novel?

    5. Re:Computers becoming *new machines* not unique... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I was thinking in another direction.

      If a different software makes a computer a new machine, doesn't that undermine general software patents? After all what one patents is not so much an idea, as it is an implementation of an idea. You're not able to patent "holding two piece of paper together", but you can patent (and it was patented) "a paper clip" - the piece of bent wire that allows one to easily and temporarily attach two pieces of paper together. For a patent, a paper clip is a machine.

      if someone invents a different kind of paper clip, that's fine. It's a new machine.

      Now software patents tend to patent the idea, not the implementation. The computer is the machine, how it is implemented suddenly becomes irrelevant. However if a different implementation of the idea on a computer means the invention of a new machine, that would mean the different implementation (different algorithm to get to the same end result) fall outside the original patent, and be patentable by itself again?

  6. It has to, for the good of the industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The other side of this issue is the argument that the only way to change a computer is to add hardware instructions, since all software is just combinations of add, jmp, xor, etc, and therefore nothing about computers is really patentable except perhaps the instruction sets or implementations thereof. I only pretend to understand it myself, but I believe the argument has been split into an all or nothing camp, where on one side no software is patentable, and on the other 'chmod +x foo.sh' is patentable for any unique foo.sh.

    It's all messed up and the answer will be whatever is most easily passed off as sanity without disrupting the current system.

    1. Re:It has to, for the good of the industry by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      Micro code my friend.

    2. Re:It has to, for the good of the industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The other side of this issue is the argument that the only way to change a computer is to add hardware instructions, since all software is just combinations of add, jmp, xor, etc, and therefore nothing about computers is really patentable except perhaps the instruction sets or implementations thereof.

      I'm intrigued by that etc operator. Does it do what I want?

    3. Re:It has to, for the good of the industry by gagol · · Score: 1

      its role is to help implement the fixthings() api... duh!

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
  7. general purpose computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This may be a step in the right direction, give it a few more casses and they will understand the idea of the general purpose computer and why people like us have a problem with software that prevents one particular purpose.

  8. new finite-state machine by optikos · · Score: 1

    Loading a new netmask into an FPGA or loading new imperative instructions into a machine-code processor effectively makes it a new finite-state machine.

    1. Re:new finite-state machine by optikos · · Score: 1

      brain-fart: I mean NETLIST above, not netmask. God, I hate getting old. :-)

    2. Re:new finite-state machine by KreAture · · Score: 2

      But, does teaching your secretary a new way of taking notes make her a new secretary?
      If so, does she have a new 3 month probation?

    3. Re:new finite-state machine by optikos · · Score: 1

      Does teaching an administrative assistant a sufficiently-different shorthand script (or stenotype chorded keyboard) enable her to write in a different set of regular expressions that may be nonisomorphic to the original set of regular-expression shorthand-script?

    4. Re:new finite-state machine by Cosgrach · · Score: 1

      I have nothing to do with you getting old.

      --
      Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
    5. Re:new finite-state machine by HPHatecraft · · Score: 1

      I'm going with "potato" on this one. Definitely potato.

  9. Only "new" as in "different-- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    --in regard to the software it is running. In terms of hardware, it is the same machine.

    "How" different is also the question--just how much of a software change are we talking of here? One application, or the entire operating system (and everything else)?
    Changing one app does not make the computer a new machine. Changing the operating system could be considered as such. But then again, what if the MAC address doesn't change, or its IP address, or its Intranet designation on a LAN?

    If we're talking about just a single app, is the change in the app a version change, or is it a licensing change? Different license could mean different "machine" in some contexts, but not in others, depending on how the ones doing the licensing decide to view it.

    Honestly, I don't think the machine should matter, only the license/registration for the app. But try telling that to Windows if you make some major hardware changes in your own machine.

    This seems like a chicken or the egg thing.

    Another reason software patents need to go--none of it really makes any sense.

    1. Re:Only "new" as in "different-- by pepty · · Score: 1

      --in regard to the software it is running. In terms of hardware, it is the same machine.

      "How" different is also the question--just how much of a software change are we talking of here? One application, or the entire operating system (and everything else)? Changing one app does not make the computer a new machine. /p>

      I think in this context a "new machine" is one with a new function. So for four of the judges, adding one app makes it a new machine.

  10. It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I know I'll be flamed for this because everyone here is against software patents, but...

    The distinction between a physical machine and a physical machine running software is somewhat pointless. Almost any software can be converted into a physical machine. Using a hardware H.264 encoder/decoder or a hardware crypto card is really no different from doing those things in software. If you want to make a distinction between physical objects and software for patent purposes, the logic part of computers needs to be considered software despite the fact that it's been manifested as a physical object. But general purpose computers running software aren't any different than purpose-built computers executing the same logic in hardware.

    1. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Almost any software can be converted into a physical machine"

      I think you maybe meant "virtual" machine?

    2. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it was correct as originally worded by AC: Given enough logic gates, almost any software (i.e., especially any algorithm & surrounding app-domain context small enough to fit into a patent-application teaching & claims) can be implemented in an ASIC, then etched as lithography onto a silicon die.

    3. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Uh, no, he meant "physical machine," as in - a physical circuit board, with all of the software logic burned right into the circuitry.

      Allow me to introduce you to the wonders of FPGAs and their close relatives, my ignorant friend.

      Next time, try not to be so smug in offering corrections. There's lots of people in this world who are - evidently - much smarter than you.

    4. Re:It does by ebno-10db · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Almost any software can be converted into a physical machine"

      I think you maybe meant "virtual" machine?

      The OP was right. As Archimedes said, give me enough gates and a big enough power supply and I can implement anything in hardware.

    5. Re:It does by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      "Almost any software can be converted into a physical machine"

      I think you maybe meant "virtual" machine?

      Obviously, he meant something like this:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BabbageDifferenceEngine.jpg

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    6. Re:It does by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      The distinction between a physical machine and a physical machine running software is somewhat pointless.

      That may be, but about the only thing can make a computer running program X novel enough to patent is the algorithms implemented by X. Hence you are essentially patenting an algorithm, which is not supposed to be allowed.

      Damn. Is this why they make engineers take Intro to Philosophy courses? What about a Platonic ideal of a computer?

    7. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Almost any software can be converted into a physical machine"

      I think you maybe meant "virtual" machine?

      No: the GP means physical machine. In the end, all software consists of logical operators, and those operators can be built in hardware (for example in lego).

      "Virtual machine" would make no sense in the context of the GP: the distinction between hardware and software is (in a sense) arbitrary - we knew that already, hence "firmware" which has properties of both software and hardware. The reasoning of the GP could not only be used in favour of software patents, but also against all (including hardware) patents.

    8. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong! Putting logic in hardware is nothing like executing it in software. You need to go back to elementary electronics and start learning the basics.

    9. Re:It does by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Wrong! Putting logic in hardware is nothing like executing it in software. You need to go back to elementary electronics and start learning the basics.

      The OP didn't say putting logic in hardware is like executing it in software, he said it could be converted to hardware. If that's not supposed to be true, then I'm glad I apparently forget my elementary electronics, as I've taken signal processing software and converted it into something that does the same thing (only faster) in hardware.

    10. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I didn't. If you can implement something in C, you can implement it in an HDL and have it reified in silicon. That's not a virtual machine, that's an actual machine.

      The fact that HDLs allow you to write machines in code makes the distinction between software and machine absurd. Logic that is executed should be conceptually the same whether it's executed from memory by a general purpose computer or by specialized circuits. It's all the same logic and should be treated identically by the patent system.

      The patent system needs to come to grips with the fact that physical vs virtual is a useless distinction and that other more meaningful distinctions must be created.

    11. Re:It does by smartr · · Score: 1

      The physical machines you are discussing sound like non-useful hardware processor optimizations. You could of course, design a math or video card co-processor highly optimized to do specific processes, but this is nothing that your general purpose Turing machine isn't capable of with more or less efficiency. Creating a gigantic logic board to do just a specific process isn't really all that practical, as anything that was made for practical processor design would just use a general processor or a type of processor focused on a specific area like video processing. A new jet engine or generator has no purpose in software, and would in fact only exist as conceptual representations of patentable machine at hand. If someone could patent the giant logic board, but not the underlying process, they'll have patented something that no one was going to buy in the first place.

    12. Re:It does by Hentes · · Score: 1

      This is often brought up but I don't see what the problem is. Sure you can implement an algorithm in hardware, and sure, you can patent that. But that patent doesn't stop anybody from implementing the same thing in software. Yes, these patents are pointless, but not harmful.

    13. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reasoning of the GP could not only be used in favour of software patents, but also against all (including hardware) patents.

      This is exactly what I meant. I'm not for or against software patents. But what I dislike is an arbitrary distinction between hardware and software that makes no sense. If they're both executing the same logic, they should be treated the same. Whether that means software is patentable or certain types of hardware are not patentable is a matter of deciding whether complex logic itself can or can't be patented.

      I personally think that very complex logic that's very specific to accomplishing a task should be patentable. The example I always fall back on is mp3. The developers of the mp3 format spent a lot of effort tuning their algorithm for the best results. Allowing that work to simply be copied seems wrong to me. At the same time, many of the techniques (dithering, quantization, FFTs, etc) used in mp3 seem too broad for patent coverage. As has been proven by AAC, Ogg and the plethora of audio formats, there are other ways to solve the same problem that mp3 solved. If our patent system can find a way to patent the exact way that mp3 sovled the problem without standing in the way of the AAC or Ogg developers, I would be in favor of that. My objection to software patents tends to come from ignorant patent examiners and judges that allow overly-broad patents to block all avenues for competition.

    14. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be asanine.

      Designing a GPU is a completely different thing from a business perspective compared to hacking on Mesa. Sure you could create a graphics card with an FPGA but good luck trying to selll that. It's just not the same thing from non-stupid perspective.

      Everyone knows the difference between hardware and software. It's not a fuzzy line.

      There is a reason why people complain about software patents more than they do about hardware patents. It's because they are different things with different needs.

      But you won't understand because you a numbskull who posts this crap over and over.

    15. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that HDLs allow you to write machines in code makes the distinction between software and machine absurd. Logic that is executed should be conceptually the same whether it's executed from memory by a general purpose computer or by specialized circuits. It's all the same logic and should be treated identically by the patent system.

      Absolutely. Neither should be patentable.

    16. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The OP didn't say putting logic in hardware is like executing it in software, he said it could be converted to hardware. If that's not supposed to be true, then I'm glad I apparently forget my elementary electronics, as I've taken signal processing software and converted it into something that does the same thing (only faster) in hardware.

      Except that's not what you're doing. You're moving your signal processing software from a general-purpose reprogrammable computer to a special-purpose one-time programmable computer, because the latter is able to run your software much more quickly due to dropping all the baggage associated with being general purpose or reprogrammable.

    17. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct. The greedy fuckers forgot about "novelty", or buried it intentionally.

    18. Re:It does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > As Archimedes said, give me enough gates and a big enough power supply and I can implement anything in hardware.

      He was most certainly wrong. Physical failures are a certainty at a threshold scale. Software cannot make the guarantee to be reproduced to the same function, why would hardware be different?

    19. Re:It does by Khyber · · Score: 1

      You need to go back to elementary school and re-learn how to read.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    20. Re:It does by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      That may be, but about the only thing can make a computer running program X novel enough to patent is the algorithms implemented by X.

      Or if the computer has rounded corners.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  11. Well, this can fix some problems by stewsters · · Score: 2

    As long as they run a different OS we can get around the patent? Time to add some ideas to the public domain.

    Someone want to make a website that scrapes through software patents on http://www.google.com/patents and adds ' on a linux based computer' to the end of them, and then reposts them as public domain?

    1. Re:Well, this can fix some problems by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      That would be nice but I think registering patents is a fairly costly process.

    2. Re:Well, this can fix some problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be nice but I think registering patents is a fairly costly process.

      and patent examiners don't give a fuck about the public domain.

    3. Re:Well, this can fix some problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So instead of registering a patent create a webpage of prior art on linux. Then when your idea gets patented anyway you only need a small fortune to defend yourself from the patent trolls...

    4. Re:Well, this can fix some problems by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Don't register them as patent. Make sure you publish it somewhere, because the moment an idea is published, it can not be patented any more - with some exception for the original inventor I believe, but at least no-one else can patent this exact idea, as the publication is prior art.

  12. The Human Condition ... by pollarda · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What the judges need to understand is that fundamentally, people are general purpose machines. Without any training at all, people are not capable of solving many problems. However, people can solve all sorts of problems based on what you teach them. Sure, you aren't going to be able to get a bushman in the Serengeti to be able to build the Apollo but, the potential is there given enough training. If that same bushman were to go to school and eventually graduate from college, they would be just as capable as anybody else. So how is receiving training through college or a technical school any different than a computer receiving a new set of instructions on how to solve a particular problem?

    Computers only run algorithms (which aren't supposed to be patentable). They follow a set of instructions step by step and can't do anything that you and I can't do with a pencil and piece of paper. (They just can do it a lot faster.)

    Of course, the beauty of computers is that they only do what you tell them. When they don't do what you want, it is still your fault since you didn't provide the instructions you thought you did. ;-)

    1. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Informative

      What the judges need to understand is that fundamentally, people are general purpose machines. Without any training at all, people are not capable of solving many problems. However, people can solve all sorts of problems based on what you teach them. Sure, you aren't going to be able to get a bushman in the Serengeti to be able to build the Apollo but, the potential is there given enough training. If that same bushman were to go to school and eventually graduate from college, they would be just as capable as anybody else. So how is receiving training through college or a technical school any different than a computer receiving a new set of instructions on how to solve a particular problem?

      Computers only run algorithms (which aren't supposed to be patentable).

      Except that 35 USC 101 explicitly says that processes are patentable, and a process is an algorithm. You have to go a bit deeper into understanding why the Supreme Court said that algorithms weren't patentable to understand the distinction. Specifically, they wanted to draw a line between thought and action: because one of the remedies for patent infringement is an injunction, you have to be able to order people to stop infringing. And while you can tell someone to stop performing the process for curing rubber, for example, you can't tell them to stop thinking of the equation for determining when to remove the rubber from the oven.

      One way of drawing this line...

      They follow a set of instructions step by step and can't do anything that you and I can't do with a pencil and piece of paper. (They just can do it a lot faster.)

      ... is to require that the claimed process has steps that you or I can't do with a pencil and piece of paper, no matter how slowly. So, for example, a patent claim of triangulating a position given three signals is not patentable, because we could do that on paper. But a patent claim that includes receiving those signals from a GPS satellite with an antenna is patentable. Think of it as a system - there's a black box that takes an input of some numbers and outputs some other numbers. You or I could do that as well as a computer (albeit slower), and it's unpatentable. But add on additional hardware that provides that input, or additional hardware that reacts to that output, and it's no longer something that we can do solely in our heads or on paper - you now need to perform an action of getting signals from something else, or closing a switch elsewhere, or whatnot. And so that's patentable, and you can be ordered not to take those physical steps that would infringe.

    2. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They follow a set of instructions step by step and can't do anything that you and I can't do with a pencil and piece of paper. (They just can do it a lot faster.)

      Sometimes speed matters.

      For instance, you can't do calculations fast enough to decode an audio signal. And the calculations need to be done in real-time to reproduce audible sound waves.

      Similarly there are things that a computer does quickly enough that a human could not finish within her lifetime. For example, a computer can copy a 1GB file in a relatively short time period. Assuming a human can enter 2 bits per second (somewhat unlikely, especially over a prolonged time period), it would take a human more than 126 years to write the same file.

      Your comment is like saying that a human can go anywhere that a boat can go because she can swim, only that she'll just do it slower. That statement is true and yet, if a human were to attempt to swim across an ocean or relatively large sea, they'd certainly drown.

    3. Re:The Human Condition ... by Arker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "So, for example, a patent claim of triangulating a position given three signals is not patentable, because we could do that on paper. But a patent claim that includes receiving those signals from a GPS satellite with an antenna is patentable. "

      Which just shows the absurdity of the patent regime. Your argument that a human being could not do that is worse than wrong, it's entirely ignorant. There is no way to triangulate signals without having an antenna involved, and the type of antenna is a purely functional choice based on the situation. Absolutely anything that a computer can do, a person can do. I/O devices? All the computer does with them is send and receive numbers - just exactly the same way a human computer would send and receive numbers appropriately in the same situation.

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    4. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 0

      "So, for example, a patent claim of triangulating a position given three signals is not patentable, because we could do that on paper. But a patent claim that includes receiving those signals from a GPS satellite with an antenna is patentable. "

      Which just shows the absurdity of the patent regime. Your argument that a human being could not do that is worse than wrong, it's entirely ignorant. There is no way to triangulate signals without having an antenna involved, and the type of antenna is a purely functional choice based on the situation. Absolutely anything that a computer can do, a person can do.

      Yes, that is entirely ignorant of you: you acknowledge that you need a physical antenna to triangulate a signal, but then suggest that a person can do it without using any hardware. You're being inconsistent.

      Allow me to help, since the prior post went over your head:
      A person or a computer can perform calculations on input values and output processed values.
      A person cannot necessarily receive those values directly regardless of form: people don't have antennas, don't have A/D converters, don't have signal amplifiers, etc. Similarly, while a person can output a set of values, without some additional hardware, a person cannot transmit a packet, close a switch, render a frame on a display, etc. That's the distinction - just performing calculations isn't patentable; doing something with them or doing something to get them is.

    5. Re:The Human Condition ... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      The input/output from the antenna is patentable, and presumably it was patented. The bus that transfers the i/o from the antenna to the processor is patentable, and again, it was patented.

      The software that manipulates those i/o numbers is the algorithm under discussion - and should not be patentable.

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    6. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that is entirely ignorant of you

      Now, now, no need to be nasty just because he pointed out a rather obvious weakness in your explanation.

      Allow me to help, since the prior post went over your head

      Oh, I don't think your original post went over his head; however, it's pretty clear that his answer went over yours.

    7. Re:The Human Condition ... by lgw · · Score: 1

      OK - what about software defined radio? What about an I/O bus that uses software-based sampling instead of a PLL to clock the bits? What about an automatic transmission with some clever behavior to improve control in low-traction driving? If the behavior all comes from hydraulics? If the behavior all comes from software? At what mix of hydraulics and software would it not be patentable?

      Most machines embody an algorithm in some fashion. It's not obvious where to draw the line.

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    8. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without any training at all, people are not capable of solving many problems.

      Yet, people solve problems they never got taught all the time. I know excellent programmers and sysadmins coming from Chemistry and Biology.
      In fact, the best people often seem to be intelligent and reasonable folks, not specialists who throw fits and tantrums for the smallest things, demand special attention to their pet peevees or decide they are so knowledgeable they don't need to ask anyone else for sound advice, god forbid even thinking of what the customer actually wants.

      A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to quality assure "common sense".

      Of course, the beauty of computers is that they only do what you tell them. When they don't do what you want, it is still your fault since you didn't provide the instructions you thought you did. ;-)

      Poor excuse for exposing APIs, frameworks and computing languages filled to the brim with nasty sideeffects and surprises. A good foundation for any system should be to minimize nasty surprises as much as possible, meet expectations and ensure highest order of predictability in all possible outcomes. A great system does all this without requiring alot of overhead and assertions in code etc.

      Software patents should be abolished. Nobody without deep understanding of software and computing should be allowed to own anything to do with what they don't understand themselves or can convey in detail in a repeatable and testable manner. Greedy lawyers should be evicted from the country.

    9. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      The input/output from the antenna is patentable, and presumably it was patented. The bus that transfers the i/o from the antenna to the processor is patentable, and again, it was patented.

      The software that manipulates those i/o numbers is the algorithm under discussion - and should not be patentable.

      Alone, yes, but why not together? Since you acknowledge that the antenna is patentable and the bus is patentable, then why can't I claim a device comprising an antenna that receives a signal, a bus that transports the signal, and a processor that executes an algorithm to convert the signal into geographic coordinates? I'm sure we can all agree that devices are patentable, yes?

    10. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then the patentable subject matter is the antennae, and not the calculations involved in triangulating a signal, or processing a GPS transmission. Anything that involves merely transformation of information must not be patentable if that "pen and paper" argument is to be upheld, because any form of information transformation can be implemented with pen and paper.

      It would be ridiculous to say that the transformation attached to a sensing device is patentable, because then if I were to perform the transformation with pen and paper by reading a display on an antenna, then I myself would be patentable (WTF).

      This is an end-of-line for patents. Almost everything can be seen in this light. It has just taken this long to "hack" patents, but really, all patents are inherently flawed. Society has to find other means of promoting research and innovation.

    11. Re:The Human Condition ... by Arker · · Score: 1

      I never said they could do it without any hardware. A human calculator needs essentially the same hardware to do this that a digital computer would. A general purpose digital computer still needs I/O devices to do anything useful, and a human computer doing the same job would need the same.

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    12. Re:The Human Condition ... by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

      I accept you're conclusion, but I reject your premise, which is just big load of computer nerd twaddle. Human beings are anything but a homogenous collection of computers. At the very most, you might be able to say they are biological computers with highly varying degrees and classifications of capabilities, sometimes overlapping.

      We are all built and wired differently because nature favors diversity and, consequently, gives everyone different jobs (we usually call them "gifts" or "talents"). Sure, you can train, learn and improve somewhat in an area you don't currently excel, but everyone has an insurmountable "talent wall" for given tasks, limited by combining factors of the mental and physical capabilities bestowed upon us by nature. You give two people identical training and they *will* end up differently.

      You're claim is just a veiled way of saying, "oh, I could do [thing X that I suck at] if I *really* wanted to," which is a complete falsity that you're unwilling to accept due to personal insecurities.

      But, ultimately, yes, computers should be defined as machines by their hardware, not their instructions. Saying that they are a "new machine" because someone provided new instructions is asinine.

    13. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "and a process is an algorithm."

      Not always. All Algorithms are processes, but not all processes are algorithms. A algorithms is a set of fixed rules and transformations that can be applied to symbolic data to yield symbolic data.

    14. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alone, yes, but why not together? Since you acknowledge that the antenna is patentable and the bus is patentable, then why can't I claim a device comprising an antenna that receives a signal, a bus that transports the signal, and a processor that executes an algorithm to convert the signal into geographic coordinates? I'm sure we can all agree that devices are patentable, yes?

      Yes - However you need the patent holders consent to build your device, and can prevent anyone else from building said device.

    15. Re:The Human Condition ... by squizzar · · Score: 1

      Software defined radio is by definition mathematics. You might be doing the maths in a clever way, but you're still doing maths, and being able to patent it would be like patenting the quadratic formula.

      I'm not sure if I got your question exactly with IO busses, but if you're talking about bit-banging a bus then I don't see the patentability. I don't see how the bus can be patentable if it's in hardware, it's a combination of wiring and protocol: the wiring shouldn't be patentable and the protocol is basically an algorithm. Implementing the protocol in hardware may be patentable, but I think the 'not-obvious to someone skilled in the art' part of it would be a stumbling block - if you've got a protocol so ridiculously complex that a competent engineer can't work out how to drive it in hardware then you should probably be allowed to keep it...

      The 'clever' hydraulics I think is similar: If it's done in hydraulics but it's obvious to someone that the behaviour being implemented could be implemented in that fashion then I don't see what's patentable. You could have a very complex piece of software to control essentially dumb hydraulics, but still all you are doing is providing a function to map the desired behaviour onto a mathematical model of the hydraulic system.

      The problem with most of these debates is that they don't seem to ask anyone 'skilled in the art' whether they'd have come up with that design. Here's a crazy idea: Companies applying for patents pay a fee and that patent office makes the non-patented parts of the application public. Solve the problem in a reasonable amount of time in a manner that matches the patentable part of the application? Pocket the fee. Solve it differently? You both get patents for your respective solution (one of which is now very valuable to any competitors!). No-one solves it? Original company gets the patent, and possibly some of the fee back minus admin etc. Now there's a disincentive to put stupid patents out there, an incentive in the system to find alternative solutions to them etc. If you've truly come up with something that no-one else is able to solve in the same way then you get to own it - a bit like the system is supposed to work...

    16. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      I never said they could do it without any hardware. A human calculator needs essentially the same hardware to do this that a digital computer would.

      That's exactly right, and that's why it's patentable. The human doesn't need any hardware to add two numbers, or calculate sums of angles. Theoretically, the human doesn't need any hardware to perform the entire equation and, given the various values encoded in the signals, can calculate the indicated coordinates.

      But the human does need hardware to receive and decode those values from the signals. That distinction makes the method no longer merely an "abstract idea" or a mere algorithm, as it now requires specific hardware.

    17. Re:The Human Condition ... by Arker · · Score: 1

      "The human doesn't need any hardware to add two numbers, or calculate sums of angles. "

      Incorrect. A human needs a pen and paper in order to do the calculations (of course we can do trivial sums in our head but a 'human calculator' requires more than that.) An abacus is extremely helpful as well. And of course, the numbers come from somewhere (input) and when the calculations are complete they are then transmitted in some way as well (output.)

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    18. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      "The human doesn't need any hardware to add two numbers, or calculate sums of angles. "

      Incorrect. A human needs a pen and paper in order to do the calculations (of course we can do trivial sums in our head but a 'human calculator' requires more than that.)

      ... yeah, speak for yourself.

      Since you are unable to add two numbers, and are unwilling to acknowledge that other people can do that without requiring computational aids, then this conversation really isn't going to go anywhere. Good day.

    19. Re:The Human Condition ... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Clearly you don't know where the term "computer" really originated from.

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    20. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Clearly you don't know where the term "computer" really originated from.

      I think you meant to reply to his post, not mine? I'm the one saying that people can perform quite complicated math without requiring mechanical aids.

    21. Re:The Human Condition ... by lgw · · Score: 1

      So you basically believe there shouldn't be patents for anything in the modern age. There's almost nothing left in terms of purely mechanical invention of economic value. Increasingly everything of economic value will involve a novel algorithm as the important bit.

      The patent systems has proven itself well through the industrial age - do you have a specific alternative system with a track record better than "sounds good to me"?

      --
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    22. Re:The Human Condition ... by Arker · · Score: 1

      No, he's talking to you, and he's spot on.

      Being a human computer is not simply doing a trivial sum in ones head. It means taking input (on paper) doing complicated calculations with that input (again, on paper) and then producing output (on paper.)

      See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer

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    23. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      No, he's talking to you, and he's spot on.

      Being a human computer is not simply doing a trivial sum in ones head. It means taking input (on paper) doing complicated calculations with that input (again, on paper) and then producing output (on paper.)

      See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer

      Nope, if he was talking to me, then both he and you are wrong and falsely limiting the definition - specifically, under your definition, if a human performs a complex calculation mentally*, they are not a human computer. But, if that same human makes a mark on a piece of paper, then suddenly they are? The paper is a necessary requirement that differentiates a human from a human computer? I disagree, as would anyone who has ever performed a calculation in their head and verbally recited the answer. Paper, as with a slide rule, abacus, calculator, or computer, makes the process easier and faster, but it is not a necessary requirement to produce a calculation, as you incorrectly contend.

      In fact, as even your own cited Wiki article states, a human computer is merely "one who computes" or a person performing mathematical calculations. Your article only uses the word "paper" once, merely discussing a format of input ("transcrib[ing] raw data from celluloid film and oscillograph paper"), and not as part of your false definition.

      And finally, again as noted by your cited Wiki article, the term human computer is commonly applied to "individuals with prodigious powers of mental arithmetic, also known as mental calculators." As Wiki notes, mental arithmetic is "arithmetical calculations using only the human brain, with no help from calculators, computers, or pen and paper."

      Quoth the immortal Bard: "Oh, snap!"

      *and how complex? Your definition is built on a vague, subjective "I know it when I see it" standard of triviality, and is therefore invalid for that reason alone.

    24. Re: The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I usually type around 80 wpm and at 5 letters per word, thats 53 bits per second. And people are parallelizable.

    25. Re:The Human Condition ... by Arker · · Score: 1

      It strains credulity to believe anyone could be as dense as you are acting here.

      The wiki article notes that the phrase is commonly misused (like most any technical phrase) but it also alerts you as to what we are referring to - human computers were used for centuries to do exactly what digital computers do today, in e.g. astronomy. They would take input, mechanically apply the designated algorithm, and produce output, just as I have described. They usually worked in teams, with many processors running either in parallel, serial, or both, depending on the job. In the article I linked you can even see a picture of some human computers along with their requisite tools - desks, paper, pens.

      You are either extraordinarily dense, extraordinarily ignorant of the subject you chose to expound on, or both.

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    26. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      It strains credulity to believe anyone could be as dense as you are acting here.

      I agree. I can't believe you're seriously and vehemently arguing that people cannot do math in their heads and that without paper or other tools, people could not perform calculations, in spite of the fact that many people do it publicly and sell books about it. You've repeatedly claimed people like this don't exist. And then you call me ignorant?

      Frankly, I think most Slashdotters could perform simple sequences of mathematical algorithms in their heads, such as the square root, squares and addition steps required for determining the length of a hypotenuse given lengths of the sides. Frankly, I'm shocked anyone would doubt that this is possible without requiring paper.

    27. Re:The Human Condition ... by Arker · · Score: 1

      Since I clearly never argued any of the strawmen you just attributed to me, you are simply trolling. Goodbye.

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    28. Re:The Human Condition ... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Since I clearly never argued any of the strawmen you just attributed to me, you are simply trolling. Goodbye.

      "The human doesn't need any hardware to add two numbers, or calculate sums of angles. "

      Incorrect. A human needs a pen and paper in order to do the calculations.

      Being a human computer is not simply doing a trivial sum in ones head. It means taking input (on paper) doing complicated calculations with that input (again, on paper) and then producing output (on paper.)

      In the article I linked you can even see a picture of some human computers along with their requisite tools - desks, paper, pens.

      You repeatedly argued that humans required hardware - namely, a pen and paper - to perform calculations, including "add[ing] two numbers, or calculat[ing] sums of angles". The quotes are there in black and white, and they're not strawmen, they're your words. Frankly, I think they're as idiotic as you now apparently admit they were.

    29. Re:The Human Condition ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG what a moron!

      He's told you over and over that he's talking about human calculators! Are you really too dumb to read?

  13. new? by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

    So if its "new" does it remove market depracation?

  14. Computer by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    A new machine?

    So my pencil becomes a new machine depending on what I do with it?

    Ho boy imagine how many patents I'm going to have!

    1. Re:Computer by optikos · · Score: 1

      Where is the software loaded within your pencil? Specifically, where did the pencil obtain a new finite-state machine loaded into its graphite?

    2. Re:Computer by Livius · · Score: 1

      Don't be silly.

      It only becomes a new machine when you sharpen it.

  15. software == machine by gnupun · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The judges seem to echo what I posted on another slashdot post that software instructions and data structures create a machine -- very similar to an equivalent machine that could be created with off-the-shelf hardware, custom ASICs or FPGAs. Therefore software patents should enjoy same protection that hardware patents enjoy.

    They are both the same in functionality and somewhat in implementation, only hardware is faster, more parallel but limited in functionality. Whereas software is slower, less parallel but has vastly more functionality than hardware.

    1. Re:software == machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardware should not deserve protection from patents.

      The only things which are allowed to be patented are inventions which cannot be reversed engineered and is not obvious to someone skilled in the arts, and therefor are documented with a patent so that other people could build on the invention.

      If an invention can be reversed engineered doesn't need this documentation, neither something that is obvious, i.e. if some duplicates the invention without reading the patent that means the patent is invalid (because the patent didn't need to be documentation),

    2. Re:software == machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, alternately, mathematics can define software instructions and data structures create a machine -- very similar to an equivalent machine that could be created with off-the-shelf hardware, custom ASICs or FPGAs, therefore hardware patents should enjoy the same protection that mathematics enjoys: to wit, patents should be abolished.

    3. Re:software == machine by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      For the exact same reason that you mentioned, however, another dude higher in the comments argues that even if the complete software is implemented in hardware, it's still an algorithm, and thus shouldn't be patentable. I guess it really is a political decision in the end.

    4. Re:software == machine by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      The judges seem to echo what I posted on another slashdot post that software instructions and data structures create a machine -- very similar to an equivalent machine that could be created with off-the-shelf hardware, custom ASICs or FPGAs. Therefore software patents should enjoy same protection that hardware patents enjoy.

      They are both the same in functionality and somewhat in implementation, only hardware is faster, more parallel but limited in functionality. Whereas software is slower, less parallel but has vastly more functionality than hardware.

      No. General purpose Hardware for implementing algorithms, be it ASIC or x86, should not be patentable. Your transistor assembly shouldn't be patentable if it just does the same shit I can do on a general purpose computer. Here's the test: Can I run the algorithm myself given a pencil and some graph paper? If No, then it's not implementable in a general purpose computer. If yes, then it shouldn't be patentable -- Didn't you watch Terminator or The Matrix?! You want to give humans immunity for thinking about certain algorithms, but it's OK to prevent a machine from thinking about the same damn thing? That's how you start the damn Robot War! It's Racist!

    5. Re:software == machine by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Here's the test: Can I run the algorithm myself given a pencil and some graph paper? If No, then it's not implementable in a general purpose computer. If yes, then it shouldn't be patentable

      This whole "algorithm == math => therefore not patentable" argument misses the case where just about any invention can be modelled by math. So nothing should be patentable? That's the end of most innovation. Algorithm == description of operations or parts of a machine that performs a function -- just like a car.

    6. Re:software == machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't patent an ASIC either. You can get mask rights, which forbids direct copying, but does not forbid someone from implementing thier own ASIC with the same functionality. You may be able to patent an invention that uses a specialized ASIC in it's broader operation, but because the ASIC like the general-purpose computer proceeds by the manipulation of symbolic data, the process it embodies is properly speaking an algorithm, and is not eligible for patent protection.

  16. Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Interesting
    There are several requirements in the patent act, and they can be thought of as a set of thresholds that must be passed:

    35 USC 101 requires that a claimed invention be directed to patent eligible subject matter: a process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter (it also requires that the invention is useful). The courts have decided that these categories are very broad, but don't include "abstract ideas" (though that term is never defined), laws of nature, or natural phenomena.

    If the claimed invention passes that low threshold for 101, 35 USC 102 requires that the invention must be new or novel. That's a higher bar, but not a huge one - if I'm the first person to make a red car and claim that in a patent application, that's new, even if blue cars existed.

    If the claimed invention passes that threshold, then 35 USC 103 requires that the invention must be nonobvious. The red car is obvious if blue cars existed, even if no one has ever made a red car before.

    So, for example, if some piece of software causes a computer to paint the screen in red paisley and that's never been done before, it's new... but it's obvious and still patent ineligible.

    The problem is when these get confused or conflated into a single requirement, because obviousness and novelty require evidence, while subject matter eligibility does not. And so, you get cases like CLS or Bilski where the judges want to invalidate the patent because it's stupidly obvious, but they have no evidence on the record... so they declare it an abstract idea and invalid. In particular, here, the judges started carving out everything from the patent claim that made it non-abstract, declaring it irrelevant, until the only thing left was abstract. The outcome may be the right one, but it's for the wrong reason - it's like finding a murderer guilty because you hate his face. Maybe he was actually the murderer, but you're finding him guilty for the wrong reason.

    1. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by optikos · · Score: 2

      As a shape & color, red paisley would be a 14-year design patent, not a 20-year utility patent. The topic here is utility patents, which are for the "useful arts". Because they are outside the "useful arts", the recognizable shape & color in design patents are for trade-dress topics outside of what can be trademarked.

    2. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

      As a shape & color, red paisley would be a 14-year design patent, not a 20-year utility patent. The topic here is utility patents, which are for the "useful arts". Because they are outside the "useful arts", the recognizable shape & color in design patents are for trade-dress topics outside of what can be trademarked.

      Since I was citing and discussing the statutes involved, any reasonable person would assume that I was using an analogy to simplify the discussion, rather than discussing something unrelated having to do with design patents. And then there's you.

      Now, would you like to go back and add something to the discussion, rather than just trying to be condescending and failing?

    3. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by optikos · · Score: 1

      There are several requirements in the patent act, and they can be thought of as a set of thresholds that must be passed:

      35 USC 101 requires that a claimed invention be directed to patent eligible subject matter: a process, machine (though that term is never defined), article of manufacture, or composition of matter (it also requires that the invention is useful). The courts have decided that these categories are very broad, but don't include "abstract ideas" (though that term is never defined), laws of nature, or natural phenomena.

      If the claimed invention passes that low threshold for 101, 35 USC 102 requires that the invention must be new or novel. That's a higher bar, but not a huge one - if I'm the first person to make a red car and claim that in a patent application, that's new, even if blue cars existed.

      If the claimed invention passes that threshold, then 35 USC 103 requires that the invention must be nonobvious. A derived finite-state machine (FSM) is obvious if an isomorphic finite-state machine existed, even if no one has ever made the derived FSM before.

      So, for example, if some logic lithographed onto a silicon die or downloaded as a netlist into an FPGA causes a computer to paint the screen in red paisley and that's never been done before, it's new... but it might be nonobvious and in fact patent eligible.

      The problem is when modes of implementation of the FSM get compartmentalized into logic gates versus sequential imperative instructions, because patentability of FSMs in logic circuits has been established for decades, while patentability of FSMs in sequential imperative instructions has not. And so, you get cases like CLS or Bilski where the judges want to invalidate the patent because it's stupidly obvious, but they have no evidence on the record that clearly establishes what an apparatus or machine is and is not... so they declare it an abstract idea and invalid. In particular, here, the judges started carving out everything from the patent claim that made it non-abstract, declaring it irrelevant, until the only thing left was abstract. The outcome may be the right one, but it's for the wrong reason - it's like finding a murderer guilty because you hate his face. Maybe he was actually the murderer, but you're finding him guilty for the wrong reason.

      For example, Intel not only patents the lithography process of silicon dies of x86 processors, but the logic circuit therein as well in separate patents. But that logic circuit can be implemented in a sufficiently large FPGA, which has software-like characteristics that strongly resemble loading a different sequential imperative machine-code program into a general-purpose imperative-machine-code processor, but with the key difference being the lack of sequential imperative instructions in the FPGA or lithographed IC (ignoring the sequentialness of pulsed timing waves of concurrent gate-flipping in the progress of computation in the FPGA or lithographed IC.)

    4. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      A derived finite-state machine (FSM) is obvious if an isomorphic finite-state machine existed, even if no one has ever made the derived FSM before.

      What do you mean by derived as opposed to isomorphic? The two terms are not exclusive.

      So, for example, if some logic lithographed onto a silicon die or downloaded as a netlist into an FPGA causes a computer to paint the screen in red paisley and that's never been done before, it's new... but it might be nonobvious and in fact patent eligible.

      It might, or it might not, if, for example, logic for causing the computer to paint the screen in blue paisley has been done before.

      The problem is when modes of implementation of the FSM get compartmentalized into logic gates versus sequential imperative instructions, because patentability of FSMs in logic circuits has been established for decades, while patentability of FSMs in sequential imperative instructions has not.

      "Has not been established" or "has been established as not patentable"? Also, again, what do you mean by logic gates vs. sequential imperative instructions, because the two are not necessarily exclusive.

      And so, you get cases like CLS or Bilski where the judges want to invalidate the patent because it's stupidly obvious, but they have no evidence on the record that clearly establishes what an apparatus or machine is and is not... so they declare it an abstract idea and invalid.

      Yes, they do - the patent claims begin with a preamble that states whether they recite a machine or apparatus, or a method. That's presumptively conclusive evidence.

      For example, Intel not only patents the lithography process of silicon dies of x86 processors, but the logic circuit therein as well in separate patents. But that logic circuit can be implemented in a sufficiently large FPGA, which has software-like characteristics that strongly resemble loading a different sequential imperative machine-code program into a general-purpose imperative-machine-code processor, but with the key difference being the lack of sequential imperative instructions in the FPGA or lithographed IC (ignoring the sequentialness of pulsed timing waves of concurrent gate-flipping in the progress of computation in the FPGA or lithographed IC.)

      "strongly resemble", "ignoring"... Although useful for a doctoral thesis, glossing over steps is usually not acceptable in a legal conclusion.

    5. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      If the claimed invention passes that threshold, then 35 USC 103 requires that the invention must be nonobvious. The red car is obvious if blue cars existed, even if no one has ever made a red car before.

      The problem isn't the novel or nonobviousness of it... It seems that lately a lot of patents are "we painted the car red" and then "we painted the boar red" and then "we painted the plane red" and now the watches and eye glass are coming out...
      It is very obvious that you painted the previous incarnation red, so of course it is obvious you'll paint the new version red, even if no one has done it on the new version yet.
      What is even worse, when people try to patent stuff "on the internet" that was done on bbses years ago.

    6. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't the novel or nonobviousness of it... It seems that lately a lot of patents are "we painted the car red" and then "we painted the boar red" and then "we painted the plane red" and now the watches and eye glass are coming out...

      It is very obvious that you painted the previous incarnation red, so of course it is obvious you'll paint the new version red, even if no one has done it on the new version yet.

      What is even worse, when people try to patent stuff "on the internet" that was done on bbses years ago.

      Then, contrary to your first sentence, the problem is the lack of nonobviousness. Yes, doing something that was done years ago in a slightly different environment is obvious (if it doesn't require any extra, nonobvious steps). Doing something to a new model that you did to a previous model is obvious.
      But these have nothing to do with subject matter eligibility. The question in CLS Bank and Bilski and the other 101 cases is whether the most novel, most non-obvious, freakin' revolutionary method ever conceived of is still not patentable, merely because it's software, or merely because it can be done in someone's mind, or merely because it doesn't require a machine. They're two separate questions - something has to be both patent eligible subject matter and nonobvious in order to be patentable - and they shouldn't be conflated into one, no matter how pissed off we get about patents on obvious things.

    7. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by optikos · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by derived as opposed to isomorphic? The two terms are not exclusive.

      Derived: at least one noncosmetic change from the antecedent so that the derived FSM produces at least one different output from the same inputs in the same accumulated context in the antecedent FSM.
      Isomorphic: the commonplace mathematical definition: Two FSMs are isomorphic if they both produce the pairwise-same outputs when given the pairwise-same inputs within the corresponding pairwise-same accumulated context. You are correct to observe that derived and isomorphic are not synonyms.

      Yes, they do - the patent claims begin with a preamble that states whether they recite a machine or apparatus, or a method. That's presumptively conclusive evidence.

      I am glad that you mentioned a patent's recitation of apparatus as being presumptively conclusive: from the footnote 18 of In re Bilski:

      Complemental Accident Insurance Policy, U.S. Patent No. 389,818 (issued Sept. 18, 1888) (claiming a “complemental insurance policy” as an apparatus consisting of two separate cards secured together); Insurance System, U.S. Patent No. 853,852 (issued May 14, 1907) (claiming a “two-part insurance policy” as “an article of manufacture”).

      The salient question here is whether the assemblage of 2 pieces of paper stapled together is (still) an apparatus that is an article of manufacture that evokes the correct magic words to become patent eligible under Title 35 USC 101 or 103 (as that assemblage was post-1888 & post-1907). Similarly, the salient question is whether the assemblage of an FSM loaded transiently into an FPGA enjoys enough of the patent-eligibility status as an apparatus that is an article of assembly manufacture as when that same FSM lithographed onto a silicon die as an article of chemical manufacture. If it does, then does that same* FSM represented by sequential imperative instructions in a processor enjoy the same patent-eligibility status? If transiently-stored FSM in an FPGA were in fact found to be definitively patent eligible but that same transiently-stored FSM represented as imperative instructions is patent-ineligible, then what portion of Title 35 USC 101 or 103 implicitly inhibits or overtly prohibits the process of imperative instructions being patent-eligible subject matter, but conversely allows that same FSM to be patent-eligible subject matter when transliterated into a netlist loaded transiently into an FPGA or lithographed (a form of mere printing as words in a book) onto a silicon die. It seems that A) what is sauce for cooking the imperative goose is B) sauce for cooking the lithographed gander as well [and as well C) for the netlist gosling begat by the goose's fleeting transience & the gander's logic gates]. An FSM is an FSM is an FSM.

      * Here a "same" FSM is topologically isomorphic with the pairwise-same outputs for the pairwise-same inputs in the pairwise-same accumulated context, even if transliterated into variant encodings: imperative instructions versus FPGA netlist versus silicon-die lithography.

    8. Re:Conflation of patent eligibility and novelty by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by derived as opposed to isomorphic? The two terms are not exclusive.

      Derived: at least one noncosmetic change from the antecedent so that the derived FSM produces at least one different output from the same inputs in the same accumulated context in the antecedent FSM. Isomorphic: the commonplace mathematical definition: Two FSMs are isomorphic if they both produce the pairwise-same outputs when given the pairwise-same inputs within the corresponding pairwise-same accumulated context. You are correct to observe that derived and isomorphic are not synonyms.

      Thank you. Now, returning to your prior statement, you contended that the derived FSM is obvious if an isomorphic FSM existed previously. But, here, you defined the derived FSM as producing a different output from the same inputs. If that difference is non-trivial, then the derived FSM cannot be obvious, by definition.

      Yes, they do - the patent claims begin with a preamble that states whether they recite a machine or apparatus, or a method. That's presumptively conclusive evidence.

      I am glad that you mentioned a patent's recitation of apparatus as being presumptively conclusive: from the footnote 18 of In re Bilski:

      Complemental Accident Insurance Policy, U.S. Patent No. 389,818 (issued Sept. 18, 1888) (claiming a “complemental insurance policy” as an apparatus consisting of two separate cards secured together); Insurance System, U.S. Patent No. 853,852 (issued May 14, 1907) (claiming a “two-part insurance policy” as “an article of manufacture”).

      I'm not sure what your point is - as the Federal Circuit noted, those patents are "fundamentally unlike the Bilski claim, since [they do] not claim a method of organizing human activity not involving manufactures, machines or the creation of compositions of matter" (emphasis added). Thus, there is evidence on the record that those patents are directed to an apparatus and an article of manufacture, respectively, contrary to your earlier assertion.

      The salient question here is whether the assemblage of 2 pieces of paper stapled together is (still) an apparatus that is an article of manufacture

      In both cases, they are articles of manufacture. The Federal Circuit was wrong in their characterization of the '818 patent, which never once uses the term "apparatus".

      ... that evokes the correct magic words to become patent eligible under Title 35 USC 101 or 103 (as that assemblage was post-1888 & post-1907). Similarly, the salient question is whether the assemblage of an FSM loaded transiently into an FPGA enjoys enough of the patent-eligibility status as an apparatus that is an article of assembly manufacture as when that same FSM lithographed onto a silicon die as an article of chemical manufacture. If it does, then does that same* FSM represented by sequential imperative instructions in a processor enjoy the same patent-eligibility status? If transiently-stored FSM in an FPGA were in fact found to be definitively patent eligible but that same transiently-stored FSM represented as imperative instructions is patent-ineligible, then what portion of Title 35 USC 101 or 103 implicitly inhibits or overtly prohibits the process of imperative instructions being patent-eligible subject matter, but conversely allows that same FSM to be patent-eligible subject matter when transliterated into a netlist loaded transiently into an FPGA or lithographed (a form of mere printing as words in a book) onto a silicon die. It seems that A) what is sauce for cooking the imperative goose is B) sauce for cooking the lithographed gander as well [and as well C) for the netlist gosling begat by the goose's fleeting transience & the gander's logic gates]. An FSM is an FSM is an FSM.

      * Here

  17. It's not difficult. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    At the same time, a group of four judges strongly disagreed on the significance of the computer limitation. Chief Judge Rader, writing for this group, said that "a computer programmed to perform a specific function is a new machine with individualized circuitry created and used by the operation of the software." Similarly Judge Moore wrote for this same group of four judges that "a general purpose computer in effect becomes a special purpose computer once it is programmed to perform particular functions pursuant to instructions from program software," on the theory that software "effectively rewires a computer."

    Someone needs to slap the cowards in Congress to clarify this w.r.t. a "general-purpose machine".

    Merely shoving some algorithm that is done by hand onto a computer is nothing novel. This isn't to say a particularly clever and non-intuitive software implementation couldn't be patented. But just doing it in software is not novel; it is obvious.

    Software is indeed a virtual -- and specialized -- machine -- that is the idea behind computers as "generel-purpose machines". But not in the legal sense driving patents: novel and non-obvious innovation.

    I keep recommending these rules:

    1. If it's already being done in the real world, doing it on a computer is not patentable per se.

    2. Doing a simulation of a real-world item is similarly not patentable per se.

    3. Doing something wirelessly formerly done over a network, or remotely formerly done locally, or on a lil' phone or tablet or tricorder, is also not patentable per se.

    4. This is not to say particularly clever implementations (the "machine" part of "virtual machine") could not be patented.

    There, follow those rules, cowardly Congress, and you protect patentable innovation while eviscerating a ton of current patent problems.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:It's not difficult. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the task of discovering prior art is taken as seriously as it should be, then it would be realized that many modern inventions are only extensions of earlier discoveries, and example is Granville Woods patent 373,915 Nov 29 1887, which anticipated the wireless lan. What is less clear is if this anticipation renders the subsequent incremental advances required to make a wireless lan work with computers obvious.

      The Induction Telegraph System
      Granville T. Woods invention of the induction telegraph system allowed messages to be sent to and from moving trains, enabling train conductors and engineers to avoid collisions and report hazard on tracks ahead. This invention actually anticipated today's wireless LAN Network (Local Area Network). In this particular technology was used as a multiplex wireless cab signal system for railways.
      Copied from http://www.brooklynrail.net/Granville_Woods.html

      That aside my opinion is that the words "on a computer" should be ignored for the purposes of granting patents. The implementation on a computer vs in hardware is an obvious transformation.

    2. Re:It's not difficult. by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

      Merely shoving some algorithm that is done by hand onto a computer is nothing novel. This isn't to say a particularly clever and non-intuitive software implementation couldn't be patented. But just doing it in software is not novel; it is obvious.

      Sure, if the algorithm is already done by hand. But what if you come up with some novel, nonobvious algorithm, like a way to calculate interstellar warp coordinates? Then doing it either by hand or on a computer is novel... The question is whether it would still be patent eligible or not.
      Under Bilski and CLS and current jurisprudence, a claim just to the algorithm would not be patentable... because someone could do it by hand. But if the claim had enough some additional limitations that specifically recited the computer, such that while you could do the algorithm by hand, you couldn't do the algorithm in the claim by hand, then it would be patentable (e.g. say it included a step of transmitting the data to a cloud service for distributed processing - that particular step may not be novel, but remember that the rest of the claim includes your novel, nonobvious algorithm).

      I keep recommending these rules:

      1. If it's already being done in the real world, doing it on a computer is not patentable per se.

      That's currently the rule: computers are known, and if your method is known, then simply doing it on a computer is not patentable.
      However, what if you have to do additional steps to make it work on a computer? For example, in the real world, we can look at someone and easily recognize their face as belonging to a friend... but machine vision and facial recognition is really, really difficult. There's a whole bunch of processing that has to be done, because computers don't inherently recognize faces. So, while the broad concept of "recognizing a face, on a computer" wouldn't be patentable, "detecting a first location corresponding to a first eye; identifying a second location corresponding to a second eye; determining an approximate facial width based on the inter-eye distance; identifying a mouth shape in a third location; etc., etc.," would be.

      2. Doing a simulation of a real-world item is similarly not patentable per se.

      Again, same as above - if the real world item is known, then simply simulating it isn't patentable... unless you have to do other things, or make approximations that don't exist in the real world. For example, the real world has a sky, and clouds, and changes smoothly from dark blue to light blue as you get near the sun... but doing volumetric lighting simulations and simulated Rayleigh and Mie scattering in a way that doesn't kill your GPU is really difficult. Why shouldn't a narrower claim to those be patentable?

      3. Doing something wirelessly formerly done over a network, or remotely formerly done locally, or on a lil' phone or tablet or tricorder, is also not patentable per se.

      And again, that's how it works. You can't get a claim to "transmitting data over a network, wherein the network is wireless" but you can get one directed to some of the steps you have to do with wireless communications that you don't have to do with wired communications, like the additional signal/noise processing, frequency heterodyning, burst interference avoidance, spread spectrum broadcasting, etc.

      4. This is not to say particularly clever implementations (the "machine" part of "virtual machine") could not be patented.

      Or stuff that you only have to do with virtual machines, like dynamically provisioning them based on load, or having dozens of virtual machines sharing a single hardware network interface and single memory bus, and transparently distributing packets to them in such a way that each machine doesn't realize there are others using the card.

    3. Re:It's not difficult. by frinkster · · Score: 1

      I keep recommending these rules:

      1. If it's already being done in the real world, doing it on a computer is not patentable per se.

      2. Doing a simulation of a real-world item is similarly not patentable per se.

      3. Doing something wirelessly formerly done over a network, or remotely formerly done locally, or on a lil' phone or tablet or tricorder, is also not patentable per se.

      4. This is not to say particularly clever implementations (the "machine" part of "virtual machine") could not be patented.

      There, follow those rules, cowardly Congress, and you protect patentable innovation while eviscerating a ton of current patent problems.

      Ugh.

      I keep seeing things like this on Slashdot. We are all for "plain english" laws that are easy to understand even without a law degree. Yet absolutely nothing in your recommendations fit. How on earth is anyone supposed to interpret "not patentable per se" and "you can't patent it unless it is particularly clever"? WTF? This is not helpful. You want to know how to make the patent situation worse? Add a bunch of new, incredibly vague laws.

      Unless you can write up your suggestions in a manner in which every single graduate of a US high school comes to the same conclusion after reading your law, you are not helping things. I know that you are smart and would be the best, most impartial federal judge that was ever yet appointed, but perhaps you should reconsider how easy it is to solve the problems we face.

  18. Reading this story makes me feel like a new man by istartedi · · Score: 3, Funny

    Reading this story makes me feel like a new man. Those bills? You'll have to track down the old guy if you want them paid.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  19. What? by Murdoch5 · · Score: 2

    I completely disagree that loading a computer with new software makes it a new machine. The machine "part" of the computer is the hardware not the software, the software is the operator. So reloading a computer with new software will change the operational purpose of the machine but not the machine itself. To put this another way, if I have a conveyor belt that just moves objects around, like a computer moves data around, then it doesn't matter who is operating the machine it will always be model xxy, I might change the operator many times in the life of the machine but that doesn't change the machine itself.

    Now lets be clear that I'm not talking about a FPGA! In a FPGA if you "reload" the software you will change the machine because in essence the "software" for a FPGA is like the internal gear system, you can configure it in 1000 different ways to do different tasks. One day it can be a conveyor build and the next it will be a bottle cap remover. So before someone comes in here and blows a gasket at me, I fully accept the fact that a FPGA is very different then a Computer.

    1. Re:What? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      In a FPGA if you "reload" the software you will change the machine ... One day it can be a conveyor build and the next it will be a bottle cap remover.

      Guess you haven't tried the latest Xilinx design software - it turns everything into a brick.

    2. Re:What? by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Haha well I haven't used the "newest" release of the software, so fair. I'm currently running 13.0 of the suite.

    3. Re:What? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      13.x is good. I couldn't even get 14.x to install. It almost made my computer into a brick.

    4. Re:What? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Now lets be clear that I'm not talking about a FPGA! In a FPGA if you "reload" the software you will change the machine because in essence the "software" for a FPGA is like the internal gear system, you can configure it in 1000 different ways to do different tasks. One day it can be a conveyor build and the next it will be a bottle cap remover. So before someone comes in here and blows a gasket at me, I fully accept the fact that a FPGA is very different then a Computer.

      Ah, but an FPGA can be simulated in software. Therefore, if you reload the software in the simulator, you change the virtual machine. How is the fact that one is emulated and the other is physical relevant?

      The way I look at it, software certainly adds a new state machine into the picture. Whether that qualifies as a machine for patent purposes is a separate question, and there are legitimate arguments on both sides, but whichever way you decide, an FPGA should play by the same rules as software.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:What? by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Now lets be clear that I'm not talking about a FPGA! In a FPGA if you "reload" the software you will change the machine because in essence the "software" for a FPGA is like the internal gear system, you can configure it in 1000 different ways to do different tasks. One day it can be a conveyor build and the next it will be a bottle cap remover. So before someone comes in here and blows a gasket at me, I fully accept the fact that a FPGA is very different then a Computer.

      Ah, but an FPGA can be simulated in software. Therefore, if you reload the software in the simulator, you change the virtual machine. How is the fact that one is emulated and the other is physical relevant?

      The way I look at it, software certainly adds a new state machine into the picture. Whether that qualifies as a machine for patent purposes is a separate question, and there are legitimate arguments on both sides, but whichever way you decide, an FPGA should play by the same rules as software.

      Bear in mind also that qualifying as a machine simply distinguishes it from being an abstract idea... it's not enough to make something patentable on its own: it still has to be new and nonobvious, but those are different questions, with different tests - the most revolutionary, novel, nonobvious abstract idea that's ever been invented is still unpatentable, not because it's not new, but because it's not tied to a machine. Software that's tied to a machine only meets that first hurdle - it still needs to jump over the others.

    6. Re:What? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Loading new software on a general purpose computer allows it to do something totally different, something it could not perform before. And from that point of view, it is a new machine. Hardware without software (and software without hardware) is useless; it's the combination of software and hardware that makes it perform a task.

      Mind that as we're talking about patents, a machine is not necessarily something with pullies and gears. A paper clip is a machine, too. As is a swing.

    7. Re:What? by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      All operating systems work fundamentally the same way, they initialize the hardware, they manage requests to the hardware and manage resource loads. If someone can make an Operating System which doesn't follow this method of computer based management then I might agree with you.

    8. Re:What? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Just an operating system doesn't do much for the user. You still need a word processor, an image editor, an e-mail reader and a web browser to name just four very different tasks. Arguably turning the computer in a word processing device, then an image editing device, etc. In tablets or mobile phones this is even more so as there the applications tend to run full screen.

  20. Jacquard loom by meerling · · Score: 2

    So then, since the Jacquard loom used a different set of cards to 'program' each different cloth pattern, it qualifies for millions of separate patents.
    We're talking about technology almost 300 years old. I'm thinking some of those judges are not only technically inept, but are in fact Luddites in black robes.

    1. Re:Jacquard loom by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      So then, since the Jacquard loom used a different set of cards to 'program' each different cloth pattern, it qualifies for millions of separate patents.

      No, because, after the first one, the others would likely be obvious in view of the first one. Nonobvious, however, is a separate requirement from whether something is drawn to patent eligible subject matter. And the judge's point here was that a programmed computer is a machine, and machines are patent eligible. They still have to be new and nonobvious and clearly described, but they're not immediately disqualified regardless of how new or nonobvious they are, the way pure software is.

      We're talking about technology almost 300 years old. I'm thinking some of those judges are not only technically inept, but are in fact Luddites in black robes.

      If you came up with a brand new technology, not even 300 ms old, that was just a series of mental steps - say, a method for calculating time travel coordinates, or the like - it could be the newest, most revolutionary technology in the world... and still not be eligible for a patent, because it's just mental steps. But a machine is different. Embody your brand new method in a machine, and it may be patent eligible. That's what the judge was trying to say.

    2. Re:Jacquard loom by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      The loom was still producing cloth. Different colour cloth maybe, still it was cloth. swapping out red for black thread is certainly "obvious" in patent lingo, as is changing a cross-pattern for a star-pattern. The fact that you can do this, would likely have been incorporated in the patent application (if it would have been patented - which 300 years ago was not possible as patents didn't exist), as I'm sure this programmability was key to the invention of that loom.

    3. Re:Jacquard loom by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Oh, and I forgot: these patterns nowadays may very well be patentable, in the form of a design patent. But then you patent the pattern itself (getting close to the copyright realm, and if your patent is (part of) your trademark, it may even fall under trademark protection).

  21. FPGA is borderline. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mathematics has the concepts of tables - and loading a table (the net list) is what programs the FPGA. Now since the F is for Field, which means the net list is written to the device (ie it is a "fixed tangible media") and thus a copyright feature, not a machine feature.

    Though I can see it either way, I lean toward it being "copyright" rather than "patent", after all, the "GA" part is designed to process any loaded netlist. The "FP" part is re-programmable - (there is a reason it is called "programmable", it is part of mathematics).

    A PGA on the other hand, you write it, true - but it burns out fuses and permanently changes the wiring. In this case I lean more toward a hardware patent (though it is still called "programmable"...) And the gate array is designed to support ANY loaded netlist. Discovering the proper netlist is mathematics...

  22. It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong question by raymorris · · Score: 2

    A different program DOES make it a different machine, and I'll explain why that must be true. That's not enough to defend an overly general patent, though.

    However, it seems to me that's the wrong question to ask in this case. It seems that someone wants to patent the concept of "a machine to do X" rather than patenting one SPECIFIC machine that does X. You can't patent "a machine to take people from place to place". You'd have to invent and patent some specific new transportation machine. So the patent would be invalid on that ground. The patentors claim that "a computer machine to do X" is specific enough to be patentable, and most people disagree - you've got to patent some specific new invention, and "on a computer" isn't new, or specific.

    As to the question in the summary, ANY electronic machine* can be implemented is software, and any software machine can be easily rendered as a hardware
    machine. Converting between hardware circuits and software instructions is a trivial bit of arithmetic, so the exact same machine can be flashed into memory and
    and we'd call it software, or it can be flashed into a gate array and we'd cal it hardware. Therefore, if any electronic device is a device, a software device must also be a device. (Because the exact same functions can be flashed as hardware or software, it's still a device or not either way.)

    Gate arrays show that one cannot really distinguish between hardware and software programs. With the original gate arrays, the factory would take some stock
    electronic logic parts and add layers of metal to implement a specific product. This isn't much different from soldering components together. It's definitely hardware. The cool thing was, the metal connections would be added based on a precise written description of of how the device should behave - a PROGRAM. In the next generation, the parts started out with fused connections between ALL of the parts and the factory would blow most of the fuses, leaving only the desired connections. Again, the list of which 10,000 fuses to blow was generated from written code, code that is pretty much a software program, a software definition of the hardware. Still, hardware produced according to a software program. In the third generation, the CUSTOMER could blow or reset fuses to reconfigure the electronics in the field, "re-wiring" the hardware. That generation is the FPGA, field PROGRAMMABLE gate array. Hmm, the customer can load different programs, that sure sounds like software programs. Those software programs are implemented as physical connections, so that sure sounds like hardware. It's both software and hardware, showing that in the end, codes that define how a machine operates really are both hardware and software - they can be implemented as either or as both at the same time.

    So yes, software can control the other parts of the machine to act differently, making it a different machine. But only specific, newly invented machines are supposed to be patentable, regardless of whether the newly invented machine is rendered as hardware or as software on any given day.

  23. Hyperbole much? by condition-label-red · · Score: 1

    Since the computer is *new* billions, if not trillions of times a second, then software doesn't make it unique.

    billions a second == 1e9 per second == 1GHz

    trillions a second == 1e12 per second = 1THz

    I am pretty sure there are NO general purpose computers operating at anywhere near 1THz.

    --
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
    1. Re:Hyperbole much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am pretty sure there are NO general purpose computers operating at anywhere near 1THz.

      Actually, many many things change in a CPU every cycle. So for each 'unique instance' during that clock cycle the machine is 'new' by GP's definition.

    2. Re:Hyperbole much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, it's also a little ridiculous for a machine to be "new" if its state has been altered. Is a MOSFET operated with a high gate-source voltage really a different device from a MOSFET operated with a low gate-source voltage? Is an inverter at CMOS logic low different from an inverter at CMOS logic high? If not, why should that change when you scale the arrangement of those building blocks up?

    3. Re:Hyperbole much? by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Plank Time.

      I'm done explaining.

  24. footnote - any electronic machine* by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I forgot my footnote. When I say "ANY electronic machine* can be implemented is software" that's provably true for a certain definition of "electronic machine".
    Those who are very familiar with these concepts, like gnupun, might prefer that I be more specific, but the point is that it's strictly true for a huge class of electronic devices which are obviously machines, and obviously patentable.

    Those machines can be rendered directly as relays, groups of transistors, or larger groups of transistors. When they are built as "larger groups of transistors", we call that a "Flash drive" and call it "software". It's still the same machine, doing the same mechanical steps, as it would be if it were built fewer transistors and more solder.

  25. Sure by macemoneta · · Score: 1

    Mandatory car analogy: New software makes a computer a new machine the same way switching from Exxon gas to Shell gas gives you a new car.

    --

    Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

    1. Re:Sure by optikos · · Score: 1

      At what point did the automobile obtain a revised finite-state machine by changing the brand of fuel (or even changing the formulation of gasoline for that matter)?
      Conversely, the FPGA or imperative-machine-code processor obtains a replacement finite-state machine by loading a new netlist or instruction-sequence.

  26. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    only specific, newly invented machines are supposed to be patentable

    And if the machine is implemented in software, the only thing that makes it novel and different from a bazillion other machines with the same physical implementation is the algorithms. You're not supposed to be able to patent those. Logically this means that algorithms implemented in hardware logic are unpatentable, which is fine. They shouldn't be patentable. However algorithms are not the be all and end all of logic design, let alone electronics in general. You could still patent a new memory cell design for example.

  27. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

    only specific, newly invented machines are supposed to be patentable

    And if the machine is implemented in software, the only thing that makes it novel and different from a bazillion other machines with the same physical implementation is the algorithms. You're not supposed to be able to patent those.

    Why not? And no, I'm not asking "which Supreme Court decision said that you can't patent algorithms," I'm asking why they said that. It's not an arbitrary rule - there was reasoning behind it, and it's the reasoning that you need to look at when determining whether a machine executing novel and nonobvious software is patentable or not, not the one sentence of dicta.

  28. Where is the source code? by rollingcalf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If loading software turns a general-purpose computer into a new machine, the patent for that "new machine" should include all the internal details to make it work, particlularly the source code. Then if somebody else implements the same concept with different source code and different algorithms, they made a different machine so it's not infringing.

    --
    ---------
    There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    1. Re:Where is the source code? by MetalOne · · Score: 1

      The above is close to what I wanted to say. If one decides to take the approach that new software creates a new machine, then how do you determine if two software machines are the same or are different when the machines accomplish similar goals. If you take something real simple like "1-click" then you have something like the following: A form to gather billing information for an individual. A button which executes an order utilizing billing information obtained prior. So does any software doing these two things violate the patent, or can it be worked around by say storing the data with a different method or writing the software in a different language or re-arranging the order of items on the form. There are a million ways to create source code with the same basic result. Additionally if software is considered as broken down into pieces with those pieces being broken down into smaller pieces until eventually arriving at trivial pieces, then there is this hierarchy of pieces where each lower level piece could be implemented in many different ways. In effect, each upper layer is an idea and each lower layer is an implementation of that idea. To me this really blurs the line between idea and implementation. Every so called implementation could be looked at as an idea, with a lower level implementation.

  29. Implications, by Pirulo · · Score: 1

    It means that a murderer, after "changing his mind", is no longer the same person.

    • 1. Commit murder
    • 2. Change your mind
    • 3. No longer guilty
  30. The Universal Machine by Gim+Tom · · Score: 2

    Uh, lets see. Computers are pretty much a practical implementation of a Universal Turing Machine which Turing proved could compute any computable problem. Therefore a computer is, in effect, a universal machine. Since changing the software on what is already a universal machine doesn't really change the fact that it is still a universal machine then it seems that no software for any computer should be patentable.

    1. Re:The Universal Machine by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I agree. Another way of looking at it is that the only thing that can make a program novel enough to patent is a new algorithm, but algorithms are not patentable.

  31. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by ArcadeNut · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

    New Software does not make a new machine. Software simply changes the state that the existing machine is in, and only does so while it's running. The machine itself doesn't change. You turn the machine off, then back on, you're back at a known state. Run some software, the state changes.

    --
    Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
  32. Car analogy by nothajan · · Score: 1

    If I fill my car with ethanol instead of petrol, does that make it a new car?

  33. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because patents are about inventions, and algorithms are just mathematical ideas. You're not promoting betterment of society by putting tollgates on ideas and mathematics.

    Instead: Why should mathematics, algorithms and ideas be patentable? Are you able to separate those three concepts in iron-clad legal phrases, or where the hell do you stop restricting innovation, science and play?

  34. Von Neumann by msoftsucks · · Score: 1

    I guess nobody told them what a Von Neumann machine is. Changing the software doesn't change the machine. There is over a hundred years worth of precedence regarding this class of ideas, from looms to player pianos. Software patents are just corporate interests trying to lock up much of the already invented technology so that they will have monopolies for the next 100 years.

    --
    Quit playing Monopoly with Bill.
    Linux - of the people, by the people, and for the people.
  35. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by devent · · Score: 1

    If you are going to solder together logic gates to implement an algorithm, the end result you get a machine. Such machine you can patent, no arguments here. and if you are building a machine which sole purpose is to run software, then you can patent that machine. There would be from my side no problem if the MpegLA patents were hardware patents on chips that decode/encode videos.
    Like a refrigerator or a vending machine is a patent-able machine, and they will not become new machines if you put new groceries inside.

    The machine will not become "magically" a new machine only because you load a different software.
    You already have a patent on a general purpose computer. You can not patent each new algorithm you load in that general purpose computer as a new machine. It's like saying a cup will become a new machine if I put tea, orange juice or coffee in it. No, the cup is still a cup. A general purpose computer will stay a general purpose computer regardless what algorithms are loaded at the current time.

    This whole debate is just lawyers talk. Also patents on "processes". Everybody knows that "processes" meant manufacturing processes and had nothing to do with computers.

    --
    http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
  36. And so my hammer by Cacadril · · Score: 1

    And my hammer is a new device at each point of its trajectory to the nail, as it steadily gains velocity and momentum!

    --
    There is no substitute for common sense. Especially, no body of rules will do.
  37. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    The whole point of a turing complete machine (within the limits of finite amounts of memory) is that it isn't a different machine for a different program. The appeal is that one machine can run a variety of different programs; in theory, perform any calculation for which it has enough memory.

    So no, no matter what software you have loaded, you haven't made it a different machine. Not even if you load different microcode. Only if you are burning fuses or proms (real proms, or at least some kind you can't erase for one reason or another) are you making it something in particular.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  38. Elephant in the Room? Serve coffee on its back! by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    I am a scientist. I call into question the assumption that, "Patents are Beneficial for Society as a Whole". This is an untested hypothesis. Until we have PROOF that patents are beneficial for our society, they should not be allowed. What if patents are irreparably harming the innovation of mankind?! You have NO PROOF to show whether they are or are not harmful or helpful. There is only conjecture and assumptions. Prove they are beneficial, until then abolish them.

    If I hand you a gun and tell you to put it to your head and pull the trigger, It's beneficial for you. Would you just assume I'm telling the truth? A rational being would examine the gun first to ensure it was not actually harmful... Some would test fire it to ensure it was not harmful. The most rational would require proof that it was beneficial before even touching the damn thing.

    We're slowly blowing our culture's brains out with the legal weapons called patent and copyright. I'm a scientist, so if you think otherwise, then I have two words for you: PROVE IT. As it stands my statement that patents are harmful is just as valid a hypothesis as that they are beneficial. It's unconscionably reckless to continue subjecting the world's economy and culture to this potential danger.

    Wait, I say there's no proof either way, but there is evidence that patents are not required at all. Neither the automotive or fashion industries are allowed copyright or patents for their designs yet look how innovative they are in design; Indeed often design is their core selling point. That's two real world data points indicating patents are not necessary. I've read many responses that say, "Without patents businesses wouldn't fund innovation." These statements are equally bogus because this statement: "Without patents ______," is bogus. We don't the-hell know what it would be like until we run the damn test. The potential risk associated with not performing the experiment should be enough for any rational being to give pause.

    Abolish patents. It's the only rational thing to do. The hypothesis must be tested. Only then will the argument for or against them have any leg to stand on. We can re-institute any laws we want once we're sure they're not harmful. If the scientific method is good enough to develop things that could be patentable, then why turn a blind eye and ignore the fact that no one has applied the scientific method to the patent system itself?

  39. These judges really pose really deep questions. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    I know it is totally unfair and probably mean. But when I read the line

    Interestingly, some judges suggested that a computer becomes a 'new machine' every time it loads different software."

    I imagined a bunch of old fogeys who do not really understand technology, who have been poring over legal definitions and making finer and finer distinctions and abstractions for decades, delving into "how many microprocessors can dance on the head of a pin?"

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  40. A Practical instead of Philosophical Argument by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    Here's a practical instead of philosophical argument, or rather an appeal to fairness and reason (alien to lawyers, but perhaps not all Slashdotters). Software can already be copyrighted, but hardware (electronic or otherwise) cannot. Does it seem reasonable to provide software with two types of "intellectual property" protection? What else has that? Movies can also be copyrighted. Should we also allow a patent on all movies involving a boy and his dog?

  41. By extension... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time I have a new idea, I have a new brain. Cool, and closer to being true, considering that what you think, ideas you have and memories you form alter the physical as well as biochemical composition of your brain.

    A better analogy might be that every time you try a new recipe, you have a whole new kitchen. Or every time you put a new record on the turntable, you have a new stereo system. For those of you born in this century, that would be when you load a new MP3 into your MP3 player, you have a new MP3 player. Or more recent and relevant still, when you put a new "app" on your "phone" you magically have a new phone.

    This last analogy brings it full circle, since the "phone" is a computer these days, and an "app" is a program.

    Word.

  42. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > Only if you are burning fuses or proms (real proms, or at least some kind you can't erase for one reason or another) are you making it something in particular.

    So if you burn a prom to make it do something completely different, that's a different machine, you say. Unless you're able to later repeat the same process, making a different machine from the same parts. That's a rather arbritrary distinction, isn't it?

  43. so solder = yes, relays = no? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > If you are going to solder together logic gates to implement an algorithm, the end result you get a machine. Such machine you can patent, no arguments here

    And if you put the parts together in a different way, joining different parts, you get a different machine, right?
    But if you hook the logic gates to relays which connect them, that doesn't make a machine? A computer is nothing more or less than a buttload of solid state relays.
    Setting the relays differently connects different parts in different ways,

    > Like a refrigerator or a vending machine is a patent-able machine, and they will not become new machines if you put new groceries inside.

    A refrigerator doesn't do something completely different depending on what you put in it. One machine might fly a F-18, that machine is called an autopilot.
    A DVR is a completely different type of machine. An autopilot and a DVR do completely different things, they are completely different machines.
    They may be the exact same hardware, running different software. So same hardware =! same machine.

    1. Re:so solder = yes, relays = no? by devent · · Score: 1

      > A refrigerator doesn't do something completely different depending on what you put in it.

      That is the crux of the issue than nobody besides computer scientists are not able to understand (well, at least they _should_ understand):

      a computer will _not_ do something completely different depending on what you put in it.

      A general purpose computer is designed to run software, it is what a computer do. Like a car is designed to drive, a computer is designed to run software. A computer do not care at all if your software is F-18 simulation, a video decoder, or video game or whatever.
      For a computer it's just bits of 0/1 to be executed according to the specification of the computer.

      You, as the human user, make the distinction that that software is a F-18 simulation and that software is a video decoder. And at the end there is always a human user operating the computer. Because we still not get any self-aware AI like in Terminator.

      If you get one machine that is designed to be a F-18 autopilot, then your can patent that machine as a whole. But you can not (or at least you should not) put a general purpose computer and load some F-18 autopilot software and patent that. Because there is already a patent on a general purpose computer, and your software is just the algorithm.

      The F-18 autopilot machine as a whole is also all the instruments you need to auto-pilot the air plane. Just like you can patent a car whose purpose is to drive, even if that car have a general purpose computer inside.

      To make it clear: you should not be able patent your software and call it "xxx but with computer", with the stupidest arguments of all that your software is magically transforming the computer in a new device.

      For better put arguments please see:
      What Does "Software Is Mathematics" Mean? - Part 1 Software Is Manipulation of Symbols
      What Does "Software Is Mathematics" Mean? Part 2: A Semiotics Approach to the Patent Eligibility of Software by PolR

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
  44. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > New Software does not make a new machine. Software simply changes the state that the existing machine is in, and only does so while it's running.
    > The machine itself doesn't change. You turn the machine off, then back on, you're back at a known state

    ?!?!?!? I'm pretty sure that when I cold boot my DVR it does something completely different than when I boot my PBX system. Turning my DVR on and off doesn't turn it into a PBX, or vice versa. They are very different machines. They've run on the exact same hardware.

    A DVR, an auto-pilot, and a PBX are completely diffrent machines for different purposes, and it's the software that makes them completely different. The hardware can be identical.

  45. Can I reprogram a hammer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Say I start my car by hitting it with a hammer. Is the hammer now a new tool? Can I patent that?

  46. Virtualization and you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Judiciary gets virtualization, all is well in the world.

  47. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by Khyber · · Score: 1

    The hardware is the machine itself, pal, not the software. The software is a result of the machine's manipulation of electrons.

    Please feel free to rejoin the conversation once you actually work in the semiconductor industry and build ICs and do lithography and understand what makes the computer the machine.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  48. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by Khyber · · Score: 1
    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  49. "Interestingly"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interestingly, some judges suggested that a computer becomes a 'new machine' every time it loads different software.

    Uh, that is pretty much the definition of a general-purpose computer.

    You can't patent a particular machine because you now use different screws for holding it together: the screws are a necessary but not defining part of the machine. In a similar vein, "on a computer" is in itself not patentable matter, even though a particularly non-obvious and/or inventive way of mapping a problem to the general-purpose problem space of a computer architecture might be.

    But if the computer is used in its obvious and intended manner, that's not patent-worthy. There is a difference in reinventing and redesigning the wheel.

  50. Re:It IS a new machine, but that's the wrong quest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No.
    In each case you have hardware design for a specific task. Single-use devices, computers, FPGA's are inventions. Running software, despite what the software does to the machine, nor change its identity. That is like saying a convertable changes into a different car by lowering the hood.

  51. Re:Elephant in the Room? Serve coffee on its back! by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    You cannot use the same exact science you use to prove math equation and chemical reaction on social siences and macro economics.

    So please Sheldon, stop judging the patent system as a scientist.

  52. A worker becomes a 'New Machine' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when you train him.

    But that doesn't make every mundane job patentable
        just because somebody has the bright idea to
            teach somebody else to do it for them

  53. Positively brilliant! by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 1

    With this logic applied, beleaguered industries worldwide can gain instant relief! Just think, of it. For an example, when you fill the tank or change the oil of your car, you'll owe the manufacturer for your *new* vehicle!

    Remind me again how Circuit Court judges are selected.

  54. Sorry Your Honor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the machine that was subpoenaed no longer exists...

  55. That switch only moves one way? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > To make it clear: you should not be able patent your software and call it "xxx but with computer"

    If XXX is not new, I agree, doing it on a computer doesn't make it new, in most cases. XXX is in fact far from new, some cave paintings are XXX rated ;)
    "On a computer" doesn't make it patentable. I say that's because "on a computer" isn't all that significant to an invention, to whether it's new or not.
    Do you agree with that last statement, that "on a computer" isn't significant in terms of whether it's a new invention?

    If doing something on a computer doesn't make the difference to make it a new invention, does a completely new invention that noone has ever thought of become "not new" because it happens to be done on a computer? If I build a working time machine, is that patentable? Does it suddenly become not a new invention if the time machine is mostly implemented in software?

    1. Re:That switch only moves one way? by devent · · Score: 1

      There can be, be definition, no new "inventions".
      The general purpose computer is already invented. So be definition, you can't patent that.
      Your software, which is executed by the computer, is an algorithm. So be definition, you can't patent that.
      That is why I say, "Xxx but with computer" should not be a patent.

      For example, all MPEG LA patents should be invalid, because it is "I have an decoding algorithm and it runs on a computer"; there is nothing to patent.

      > Does it suddenly become not a new invention if the time machine is mostly implemented in software?

      Ah it is implemented _mostly_ in software. That is the difference.
      Let me ask you: does it makes a new invention if the time machine would be implemented only in software?

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    2. Re:That switch only moves one way? by raymorris · · Score: 1

      > There can be, be definition, no new "inventions".

      So said Charles H. Duell, Commissioner of US patent office, in 1899.
      Since then, we've invented airplanes, computers, and a million other things. Al Gore even invented the internet.

      > Let me ask you: does it makes a new invention if the time machine would be implemented only in software?

      Is either a new invention, or not. Whether it's rendered into a few transistors (a circuit) or many transistors (a Flash memory) doesn't make any difference as to whether or not the invention is new.

      > The general purpose computer is already invented. So be definition, you can't patent that.

      Metal was invented thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean the internal combustion engine wasn't a new invention in 1807, just because it's a configuration of metal.

    3. Re:That switch only moves one way? by devent · · Score: 1

      If you are just going to troll, I can go somewhere else.

      A "time machine" implemented 100% in software will not arrange the transistors in any new way. You can try and juggle the words around, but the simple fact is that a new software will not configure the transistors in any new way, thus not create a new machine.

      Think of software like an image on the monitor. Will a monitor become a new machine just like because you load a different image? No it will not. A different image will just turn off and on different pixels. So why is a software, that will turn off and on different transistors, creates a new machine? It does not.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
  56. So a Von Neumann machine is not a machine? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > "I guess nobody told them what a Von Neumann machine [wikipedia.org] is."

    Is a Von Neumann machine a machine?

    Most Von Neumann machines are implemented using microcode, if not in C code (virtualization). If I understand you correctly, the fact that a Von Neumann machine is, or can be, implemented using microcode makes it no longer a machine?

    1. Re:So a Von Neumann machine is not a machine? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Apparently you don't know what the patent definition of a machine truly is. I suggest you stop talking go back to your basic high school and basic entry-level college courses and relearned that which you failed to learn in the first place.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  57. Analogy - "programming" a fridge door by t0mek · · Score: 1

    A fridge has a door that can be "programmed" to open to the left or to the right. Does it mean that I can patent 2 sets consisting of a "fridge + program" as 2 new machines and than charge everyone who uses left-hand or right-hand "programmed" fridge door a license fee?

  58. Re:Elephant in the Room? Serve coffee on its back! by funky_vibes · · Score: 1

    I'm sure most scientists agree.
    But how often is science allowed to intrude on politics?

    Clearly, the patent-troll system is being funded by some very rich individuals, with politicians adding a few cm to their wallets...

    Until laws are passed were politicians can be held responsible retroactively, and that all of their holdings and transactions are routinely, thoroughly scrutinized.
    I don't think we're going to see any kind of change.

  59. Re:Elephant in the Room? Serve coffee on its back! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Playing Devil's Advocate:

    In science we can't "Prove" anything, we just find a hypothesis that is currently not refuted. All it takes is one counter example to invalidate the statement that something is true for all cases. Thus we have Un-refuted Hypothesis' and Refuted Hypothesis', and "Proofs" are mathematical tools we use to show the extrapolation of the hypothesis over the forward set of possibilities based on ASSUMPTIONS (Case Statements). The recursive nature of a proof only shows that the hypothesis is likely fits our understanding of the domain given the assumptions in the "proof". Once a counter example is found that does not fall in line with our hypothesis, we chalk it up as a good approximation and look for a new hypothesis that explains our observations and accounts for the variables that invalidated the last.

    Take Newtonian Physics. We had proofs for newtonian physics for years, until we observed some odd behavior that couldn't be explained by the existing theory and thus refuted it. From here we came up with Quantum Physics to explain the behavior we could not explain and established a theory (proof?) to explain the behaviors being observed based on the assumptions (the model of the atom / particles / etc). It's very possible in our future that we may find counter-examples to quantum physics, and then we'll have to come up with a new model/theory/set of assumptions.

    That being said ill stop playing the devil's advocate and say that I agree with your assertion that the value of the patent hasn't been shown to be beneficial, in fact I can come up with 100's of counter-examples that would refute the "Patents are Beneficial for Society as a Whole". Thus the idea is refuted (rejected) and we must find a new model. I don't take issue with your stance, or your basic reasoning, but your ultimatum is flawed, one cannot "prove" indefinitely anything. When patents came into practice, the system was required to fuel industrial growth giving people incentive to be the initial inventors on a subject, and a guarantee that they could have a reasonable period to recoup their R&D costs before the copycats swooped in to make a cheap buck off their hard work. In that time, given the assumptions, the theory held true and worked causing a great boost in industrial growth as a society.

    PROOF is the problem, simply testing if abolishing patents would be beneficial will not "prove" anything, everything has to be weighed and with the understanding that our analysis / systems / "proofs" are only valid until they've been debunked.

  60. Xilinx rejoyce... by niftymitch · · Score: 1

    Field programmable logic folk rejoyce.
    Update the initialization EEROM and the hardware is covered by yet another patent.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  61. Re: new software=new machine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are those judges or child pornographers? They have said that shit to me in blatantly fake kangaroo courts over stolen computer equipment many many times, THAT SINCE THE THIEF REINSTALLED WINDOWS OR LINUX OR BSD EVEN HE OR SHE HAS A NEW COMPUTER AND IT IS NOT MY COMPUTER AT ALL. They are illogically sarcastically implying that they do not need to comprehend the installation of software in wording, neither do they like the word because it is money enough. AND FUCK THEM FOR THAT SHIT. They are knowingly mentally ill crypto-neo-communist crayon(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayon) eating treasonous defectors in the end and try to subtlety semantically argue via the media that you can reinstall the os and keep the stolen computer after the kangaroo court hearing and kike the person who is not a baby fucker in the parking lot in the end instead of purchasing Scientology services and possibly be let out of prison 3 or 4 days a year. DIAF is Hals style, Hal is a baby fucker arsonist who cryptically hates my elite ass, Hal is going to the iron maiden after this is all over with. Spread da word, power to da people. Am I ripping you off yet? PEACE I'M OUT.