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Casting a Harsh Light On Chinese Solar Panels
New submitter Eugriped3z writes with an article in the New York Times that "indicates that manufacturing defect rates for solar panels manufactured in China vary widely, anywhere from 5-22%. Secrecy in the terms of settlements negotiated by attorneys representing multi-million dollar installations perpetuate the problem by masking the identity of unscrupulous or incompetent actors. Meanwhile, Reuters reports that unit labor costs in Mexico are now lower than in China."
I have a harsh light for their ability to read a PO. We ordered a thousand amorphous panels for a toy and we asked for 4mA in full sunlight except they shipped .4mA panels. They added a decimal to our spec and that was it. And it cost just enough so it's not worth pursuing further, just start over.
Mostly random stuff.
There ya go. At least it's made in North America then. We need to help the Mexicans out anyway what with the Cartels wearing them out and all. Let's buy some from our neighbors.
is there a way to be sure you're getting ones made by a reputable firm? The TCO/EROEI on Solar is so marginal to begin with, nobody wants to risk a multi-thousand-dollar implementation if there's a high likelihood they'll lose out.
Nuf said !!
If you want junk look for the MADE IN CHINA label !!
Nuf said !!
If you want to send money to commies look for the MADE IN CHINA label !!
Nuf said !!
If you think you are helping a peasant earn a living look for the MADE IN CHINA label !!
Nuf said !!
Well, that's the problem with a race to the bottom: sooner or later you do, in fact, hit bottom. This reminds me of how things played out in the desktop PC market a decade ago: really cheap components caused a lot of problems for a lot of name-brand manufacturers. Bad electrolytic caps on the motherboard were particularly pernicious.
The good news is that, eventually, this will probably get sorted out. Producers and installers with brands and reputations (not to mention business contracts) to defend will eventually get fed up with dealing with shitty suppliers, who will either clean up their act, go out of business, or retreat to the purgatory of "known to be poor quality", where there's still plenty of business to be had (see again the desktop PC market), but not much money to be made.
From TFA
And when defects are discovered, confidentiality agreements often keep the manufacturer’s identity secret, making accountability in the industry all the more difficult.
Kind of irrelevant. When you buy something, the person who sold it to you is the responsible party. If they want to keep their supplier a secret (more on that later) that's up to them but the seller is the responsible party. If they don't know who they are buying from, then they are fools and deserve whatever problems they get.
The curious bit is that I don't really see how the players in the supply chain could be kept a secret from an interested large purchaser. I run a small manufacturing company. One of the parts we make goes into a General Motors vehicle and we are a Tier 4 supplier meaning we sell to a company who sells to another company who sells to another company who sells to GM. If GM wanted to find out who made that part, I absolutely guarantee you that they could find out even if we had a confidentiality agreement in place with our customer. If the solar panel industry is unable or unwilling to do this then it means they have insufficient control of their supply chain which is a BIG problem. It means they don't really know what they are buying or how it is made.
So instead of Chinese workers and managers screwing us over, it'll be Mexicans?
Pass.
We can create a domestic solar panel industry to replace the cheap defective solar panels bought from a country that helped destroy our previous domestic solar panel industry. Bark! Bark! Bark! We will catch that tail eventually.
You got talent, kid! Stick with me and I'll get you into vaudeville!!
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
So you paid before you got a sample? or the first delivery?
Not unusual to have to pay in advance for a product made in China unless you are a big player. I wouldn't ship to a company in another country without cash up front no matter what the quantity was.
That seems fraught with peril.
That would be correct. Doing business in China is a genuinely risky proposition. I used to do work in global sourcing and have spent a lot of time trying to buy parts in Mexico, India and China. You do so at your own risk.
Anything argued in a court of law by anyone should be open, with very few restrictions (identities of minors and victims in some criminal cases, etc). I've not yet heard any convincing arguments for keeping details of cases involving corporations from the public, at least not after some short delay in extraordinary cases (a month or so).
I would never have figured Mexican labor would become cheaper than that found in China. Sure, there's an education gap between Chinese and Mexican labor, but Mexico has been successful at producing exports in a variety of industries.
Significant to what I'm seeing in that comparison is that while the "build it wherever labor is cheap" attitude has certainly been prevalent, I have to wonder if rising fuel costs will begin to whittle away at that? Several years ago, a man who ran a raw cotton storage facility told me that the cotton was grown here in Texas, shipped to China, manufactured into completed products, and shipped back to the United States. How much longer can transportation to and from across the Pacific be cost effective compared to other options?
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
I should note an addendum to my comment about "this will probably get sorted out." There will be stratification in the market. By that I mean that you'll be able to sort out good producers from bad based on quality (and reputation - deserved or not), with price point being a proxy measure of that. People seeking reliability, and who are willing to pay for it, will know where they can go. Those who don't care if they get early failures, can shoulder the risk of early failures, or just can't afford better will likewise know where they can go. There will also be some paradoxical cases of companies that command a price point not at all justified by their quality.
It is, again, like the consumer electronics market as a whole. If you are looking for, say, a PC power supply, you can get quality products backed by good warranties and a long track record, but you'll pay a price premium for it. You can also go bargain basement, know that you are getting a lower quality product that has a higher chance or early failure, but be OK with that. But power supplies are a relatively mature market in terms of size, growth rate, component supply chain, and R&D roadmap. Photovoltaics are still very much in flux, and it'll probably take another few years - even a decade or two - before things settle out.
Another parallel with the PC industry: things were simpler when it was small and niche. Think back to the 1970s and 1980s - PCs were not yet a commodity, lots of manufacturing was still taking place in industrialized countries to high standards, there were lots of small- and medium-sized companies that devoted a lot to the design, build, and manufacturing quality, because a bunch of warranty claims would either bankrupt them or kill their brand (which would have the same effect). Computers were purchased and used by fairly knowledgeable people. Then there came an explosion in the late 1980s and 1990s, when there was a feedback loop of commoditization: more widespread use and standardization lead companies to compete on price, which drove down costs, which allowed for more widespread use, etc. Along the way, prices went way down, but quality also suffered along the way.
I will noet that, during that same time period, value went up tremendously. Even if the reject rate of components and finished goods went up, you still got a lot more product for the same amount of money. This is also true in solar: you can get a lot more for the same amount of money these days, even taking into account the higher reject rate. This will continue into the foreseeable future.
Say it isn't so!
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
This wasn't argued in court, it was discussed between the parties before seeing the light of day in court. And, one of the parties most likely thought it would be worthwhile to keep it quiet, perhaps along with a financial incentive to the other side.
This kind of thing comes up all the time.. maybe both sides of the deal didn't have particularly clean hands: When you're buying concrete for the making of shoes, you're less likely to want to gripe about whether it passes the slump test when it's delivered. Extra special good price on those construction materials, perhaps with some not-entirely-on-the-books compensation for some of the actors involved, and an invoice price for the eventual customer that doesn't reflect the actual price paid...
Or, simple embarassment at getting "taken".
Unpublished, not for precedental use, court decisions are another story, and they should be abolished.
The end user should always buy with a warranty and a rated guarantee of performance. With microinverters and the like, each solar panel's output is available to the user on a browser. So... any defective panel can be swapped out and replaced. A small hassle for the installer and wholesaler, but its built into the incredibly low prices anyway. ($3/watt installed and warrantied for 10 years). This is a non-story. Who cares if a few solar panels need to get shipped back to China every month? Container ships leaving the west coast are usually empty anyways.. we only export our waste products and defective goods.
I would have assumed some third party would have held the money in escrow until delivery and confirmation of the parts meeting spec. Is there no method to do that?
Of course it can be done but it is expensive and not as easy as you might think. For that to work you have to have a very detailed specification and the ability to inspect the product to ensure it meets the specification. Sometimes the only real way to do that is to actually see it being made. If you are doing serious amounts of business in China you pretty much have to have your own people there to manage things and ensure stuff is done properly.
I've installed several thousands panels in the last few years, and I haven't had one defect panel from China. In fact the only panels with defects where from Sunpower, USA. They used to package the panels in a not so optimal way, which destroyed some of them during shipping.
Firstly, solar cells traditionally lose a large percentage of their performance after the first couple of years of use. If the small assemblies are experiencing a 50% power loss after 2 years, then achieving 50% after 7 years on a high-quality large assembly is reasonable. I'm not really sure why people are expecting solar cells to last 25 years.
Secondly, a roof is a rough place to put a solar cell. It is continuously exposed to sun (ironically), which breaks down many plastic coatings. Additionally, the optical surfaces are affected by abrasion from snow, rain, and wind-borne debris. This abrasion rapidly breaks down optical surfaces, which are needed for solar cells. Roofers are very familiar with the abrasion problem - each and every 25 year shingle does not last 25 years. Additionally, popular shingles are made from tar, felt and rock, as opposed to high-tech plastics, for valid mechanical and photo-chemical reasons. Mechanically and photo-chemically, an array of small plastic optical things will degrade significantly over 25 years. Even high-quality optical materials, like glass windows, degrade in roof-top applications over 25 years.
I'm not really sure why people expect solar cells to last 25 years in uncontrolled and exposed applications. Seven years is a tough specification. Two years is realistic, and that sounds like what some of these systems are actually actually achieving.
As far as I can tell, unless you have a rep actually in country checking batches, you're screwed. Even so-called ISO compliant manufacturers only do non-shoddy work when someone is keeping an eye on things at all times.
When I was a kid working deliveries, my boss had a sign on his wall: "The bad taste of poor quality will linger when the sweetness of the price is long forgotten"
Domestic PV industry, Ha! In Greece we have three (3) PV and panel plants and you cannot even find any of their products in Greek shops. In fact, noone seems to know these plants even exist! We are talking about multimillion-scale investments that were made in view of European plans to install PV energy plants in the south.
In one of these companies' site (a ~150 million euro plant near Patras) you can see a video showing the raw silicon cubes coming from Germany entering the plant in the one side and PV panels exiting on the other. In between, you can see clean rooms, properly dressed personnel, etc.
All you can find in the Greek market is chinese panels, and there are no real statistics about their market share dominance. Unfortunately, my bet is that these plants will very soon (if they have not already) go bankrupt and vanish in thin air.
because one of the parties wants it? Fuck you. The purpose of the law is to serve the greater needs of society, not the parties involved in a lawsuit. A LOT of shit goes down in terms of in and out of court settlements and wrongdoing that has the effect of frustrating researchers trying to ferret out and understand important trends and practices in society because of this secrecy. This does not serve the greater needs of society, in fact, just the fucking opposite.
This is one subject where America can go and fuck itself very much.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that solar could not be used widespread, TODAY, other than it being held back. This bullshit report is just another fine example of American fuckwittery.
Big power - NOT INTERESTED in promoting alternative energy - for obvious reasons
Alternative energy suppliers - HAPPY TO install systems for treehuggers at STUPID prices with 15-20 YEAR ROI - not interested in rocking the boat
Consumers - Too fucking stupid and apathetic to notice
Solar panels have been around for decades. What's holding them back is the pretense that the technology isn't "mature" yet. That it still needs billions in R&D to get that perfect fucking panel. Every year or two we hear about a new "breakthrough" that means they can make a panel 2% more efficient. WHO THE FUCK CARES??? THE ENERGY IS FREE WHY THE FUCK DO I CARE IF MY PANEL CONVERTS 18% or 20% OF IT? Pretty much ANYONE with a detached home has enough roof space to fit enough panels to power their home. Make the fucking things CHEAPER. Yeah, sure, I'd love for my phone never to need plugging in - do carry on with the research but in the meantime MAKE CHEAP PANELS.
Inverters? Ancient technology. Absolutely no reason why they should be costly.
Batteries? Ah. Now here's a problem. Battery technology is the scariest of them all, for the corporations. People being able to STORE their FREE power is a fucking nightmare for them. This is probably one of the biggest areas where technology is being retarded and buried. What happened to Ceramatec for example? They said they'd have a domestic 'fridge sized' 50kWh sodium-sulfur battery for $4,000, by 2010. Now they're dead quiet on the subject of cheap storage.
Imagine:
Solar panels, say $5,000
inverter, say $1,000
50kWh battery, $4,000
$10,000, to never need the grid again for a fairly average home. The ONLY problem being - nobody can get their hand in your pocket for their monthly fee.
I'd rather keep hiring Chinese programmers than move our company's operations to Mexico. However, we might consider flying some Mexicans here to clean the garbage out of the parking lot.
-- Jimtown Kelly
Stop being racist and brand the entire China, instead blame specific businesses.
Roughly 3 yrs ago the company I work for noticed that Price of Nylon 12 resin had been steadily rising. Once asked, representative of resin manufacturer said "Oh, they're hugely popular replacing fluoropolymer based plastic(PTFE-teflon I think) in solar panel(in china)." While Nylon 12 is still better than more common plastics for this purpose, it is definitely less durable and cheaper alternatives to fluoropolymer.