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Tesla To Blanket US With Superchargers In Two Years
dublin writes "Electric car manufacturer Tesla is planning to triple its construction of "supercharger" rapid charging stations, with a trail of stations in place for L.A. to New York trips by the end of this year. In addition to the east & west coasts, islands in Colorado, Illinois, and Texas will grow together to cover nearly the entire continental US by 2015. The two biggest obstacles for electric cars are high cost and range problems. Cost is still a problem, but this move to blanket the US with supercharger stations could fix the range half of the e-car equation."
Tesla has made a map of where they intend to put the stations and how far you can drive from them. http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
That was Henry Ford's model, of course. But don't forget that before the Model T, there were a number of very expensive automotives available that only the rich could afford...
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
No, that is not Tesla's job. Tesla are fulfilling a very important part of getting the industry to take electric cars seriously by appealing to the car enthusiasts. This group represents a big barrier to green technology cars because they are traditionally seen as pokey, boring machines. Tesla are changing that perception and there are plenty of other companies who are now starting to produce cheaper electric vehicles. Tesla should keep doing what they are doing - challenging the dominance of the petrol driven sports car.
Electric cars have long been a chicken or egg problem. We would have gladly rented a Tesla model S for our trip to New Orleans from Dallas last weekend (Elon, lend me a car when we can do this and we'll document the trip), but A) you can't readily rent a Tesla and b) there are no charging stations yet.
I think it's interesting that they're building out a "free forever" stations, and carpeting the nation with them. They probably represent a fixed cost, as you can only charge so many cars per day, and eventually competing stations will pop up along the most popular routes. Electricity really isn't that expensive.
I was thinking about how US automakers might try and sue Tesla in federal court over providing "fuel" for the cars, but I wonder if the "free forever" is due in part to the fact that it's much more difficult to sue a company for anti-competitive practices if there's no money changing hands in the fueling process.
moox. for a new generation.
Third, fast charges are very inefficient by comparison to level 2 chargers-- there's a lot of waste energy.
As much waste energy as carting around an inefficient internal combustion engine, that gets at best 30% efficiency? I think not.
I am artificially intelligent.
A few quibbles:
DATABASE WOW WOW
Actually, you are a bit off, Cost of install depends on size of install. 4 station charger will cost more than a 1 or 2 station. The power draw is easy enough to get around as they are installed in commercial districts with more than enough power available. Most of them are being installed in conjunction with Solar panels anyways. Eventually these will be refueling stations at a cost to all electric cars so the costs to build them will be fully recouped.
cost is the MAIN problem.
Wait till you get to replace those batteries and discover the real costs :D
From what I've read about the Prius the battery life is exceeding expectations by a wide margin.
Most drivers have never faced a battery replacement, because they are easily managing 10 years (200K miles) and the batteries
have shown no sign of needing replacement.
Admittedly it costs around 2000 to 2500 bucks when you do need a replacement, although salvage yards will sell them
to you for around $500. A cottage industry has sprung up refurbing Prius batteries.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Just wait until the Tesla Tow Truck. Then you'll see a lot of Teslas pulling Fords.
Right now they're Tesla only. However, Tesla also has a side business selling power trains to more traditional car companies, and they're probably likely to license access to the network to those cars as well once they've built it out some.
This
I feel like this is trying to force the current gas station paradigm (refuel, adding 300-500 miles of range in 5-10 minutes) onto EVs, when that paradigm doesn't really fit well.
Based on a little Googling, Tesla's Superchargers can apparently charge 50% of an 85 kwh battery in about 30 minutes. Not bad (a bit over twice the charge rate of DC fast charging on a Leaf), but based on the EPA estimated range of 265 miles, that gives you about 130 miles of range. So every 130 miles, you stop for 30 minutes - more if all Superchargers at a station are in use. While I'm all for taking frequent breaks on long trips, this is a lot more than the usual 10 minutes every few hundred miles.
To match gas station refuel times, the power requirements get ridiculous pretty fast. Superchargers put out 120 kw according to Tesla. Let's say we have a hypothetical battery that can take a full 85-kwh charge (265 miles) in 5 minutes like a gas pump. That's 12 times faster than the Supercharger rate of half-capacity in 30 minutes, or 1.44 MW per car! By way of comparison, most (many?) homes in the US have 240-volt, 100-amp service, or 24 kw maximum available power. 1.44 MW is equivalent to 60 homes all maxed out and about to trip breakers! If a typical charging station will service a similar number of cars as a gas station, multiply that by maybe 10 - or 600 maxed out homes. For one refueling station. Insanity. It gets even worse if you want more than 265 miles of range in 5 minutes.
The bottom line is that even if battery technology gets there, how will the grid handle such quick charging? I see that being the bigger obstacle to EV road trips as convenient as gas-powered trips are now.
The easier solution is to shift the paradigm - how we think about and use our vehicles. Everyone could have an EV for commuting and regular driving within its nominal range. You charge at night or any other time when you're not using the car anyway - NOT when you are on a trip and just want to keep going (but can't, until you wait to recharge). If/when you need to take a long road trip, you take a gas-powered car. Either an extra car in your household, a rental, borrowed from someone you know. Whatever. Or if you're not hauling a bunch of stuff, maybe it makes more sense to fly.
As a current EV owner (Nissan Leaf), I've already made the switch in paradigm - and I love it. I'm saving tons of money on fuel costs, driving my Leaf over 16k miles per year. Pretty much every trip within its range will use that car, because it's cheaper and fun to drive. Going to Vegas (from SoCal)? We use the other car. Or any longer trip. Most multi-driver households have multiple cars, so road trips shouldn't really be an issue. I think this kind of strategy makes way more sense than seriously increasing travel time (waiting to charge) or the failed battery swap idea.
Battery swapping, on the other hand, is the most cost efficient, environmentally friendly, and quickest form of refueling an battery EV.
That would seem more credible if the company that tried it hadn't recently gone out of business.
I do not agree. Many great ideas have failed on their first attempt simply 'the time is not right'. It does not mean that it was a bad idea. Subsequent tries on the same idea, modifying a few points have managed to succeed and thrive. Being the first to do something is not always best.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
Spoken by someone who clearly has no idea what car enthusiasts think or how much influence they have on the industry. The Tesla model S goes from 0-60 in 4.4 seconds which puts it in the seriously quick category. Now, exactly what makes you think it's slow? Or are you just playing internets?
Second, these things are extremely expensive to install (especially if they're not immediately next to major power lines). We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I'm guessing that you've never had to build a gasoline station. Environmental assessments. Underground excavation. Costly double-walled tanks and plumbing. Inspections. Insurance in case you contaminate the local soil or water with spilled fuel. And it's not like you get a pipeline direct to the station--every gallon you sell has to be trucked in.
~Idarubicin
Nobody said they don't have to be replaced.
Just that the vast majority of them are running much longer than expected.
Only the first generation of Prius vehicles are reaching their 10 year life.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Or perhaps they could disrupt a profitable market, sell at an appreciable margin, and make lots of money before trying to build massive, Toyota-scale factories out of nothing?
DATABASE WOW WOW
I always figured Tesla would (literally) make a model T, soon after the model S.
The Tesla Model T, the electric car for everyone.
If they only charge Tesla vehicles, that would be like building gas stations that only sell proprietary fuel for Ford vehicles. Maybe sell the juice cheaper to Tesla owners but they need to provide high current plugs for all of the major electric vehicles.
Cross-country travel is still gong to be a hard sell, tho. They're talking about 30 minutes to 50% charge. So call it an hour to 90% and 1.5 hours to 100%. And I assume they're talking about the small Tesla pack to get the best numbers. And non-Tesla vehicles will have to be charged at a more conservative rate so they're going to have people hanging around for an hour or two charging their vehicles. That's a lot of time to kill.
Yeah, that is a valid comparison, because it is well known that gasoline flies by itself from refineries to gas stations, right ?
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
I think the idea is that you're supposed to charge overnight at 115V or 230V in Vegas.
That's fine when the edge of the circle is your destination. But the fact that these are one way circles makes the map very deceptive. For example, take a look at the Fall 2013 map. It would seem that Toronto to NYC is a feasible trip, but it isn't, at least not by supercharger.
If you improve one inefficient plant, that automatically improves 10000 EVs.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Can someone tell me why a readership that embraces every speculative technology suddenly gets downright angry about the very thought of an electric car? Or for that matter any mention of energy produced by any alternative means?
Why does it make you so damn mad?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Funny, I was just reading this a little while ago:
"âoeAt the time of the latest record, wind generation accounted for 22 percent of the power demand of 34,318 MWâ¦Wind farms expanded rapidly in Texas until 2009 when production began to overwhelm the existing transmission capacityâ¦Texas is building more than 2,300 miles (3,700 km) of high-voltage transmission in a $6.5 billion plan to expand the grid by late 2013 to accommodate wind-farm growth of up to 18,500 MW" - Reuters.
Maybe those 40 year-old coal plants won't be needed too much longer. I imagine getting 18,500MW without burning or consuming anything at all is pretty efficient.
You are welcome on my lawn.
30% is max efficiency, which usually occurs at around 75% output power. You don't use anywhere near that much power cruising (with the possible exceptions of Montana and the Autobahn). Average efficiency in driving is 14-26% according to this: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml That's a frustratingly wide range, but you get the idea. IIRC coal plants are about 40%. Combined cycle natural gas powered plants are approaching 60%.
Every restaurant along a major highway should be looking at installing an electric vehicle charger. If I'm taking a trip in an electric car and getting hungry, you can bet I'll choose the stop that lets me charge the car at the same time.
Sure, the Tesla supercharger may be expensive to install due to the power requirements, but even a standard 220V charger would be enough to make me decide to eat there instead of somewhere else. Even if my trip doesn't require extra charging, having extra power in case I encounter something unexpected is a good thing.
I think the idea is that you're supposed to charge overnight at 115V or 230V in Vegas.
That's fine when the edge of the circle is your destination. But the fact that these are one way circles makes the map very deceptive. For example, take a look at the Fall 2013 map. It would seem that Toronto to NYC is a feasible trip, but it isn't, at least not by supercharger.
According to marketing, if you leave Toronto in the Fall of 2013 and drive slow enough that you hit new stations coming online in early 2014... then you're OK. :)
The range bubbles are one way distance. To verify this look at the one surrounding Denver. Colorado is about 380 miles across, and the diameter of that bubble is slightly larger, so they have about a 200 mile radius. The advertized range for the two Tesla S models are 230 & 300 miles, so neither can drive from a charging station to the edge of a bubble and back.
I though this issue was solved years ago with... and I'm not joking... towing a gas/diesel generator.
Put a hitch on the Telsa and tow a gas generator with fuel to extend your range. When you're using the car locally or once you reach your destination you unhitch and park the generator. There was even a prototype that looked like a tiny trailer.
Is this not an option anymore?
Do you frequently drive 7 hours straight without a bite to eat and a pee break?
I doubt that's very common amongst their target market.
Rod Taylor
I'm really looking forward to this. Last weekend I took my model S down to Big Sur to do some camping and used a bit more power than I anticipated while driving over dirt roads and due to a headwind driving back north. On my way back I had to stop for a bit in Monterey at a level 2 charger to add a few miles before I could reach the Gilroy supercharger. I ended up having to unplug a Volt who was taking up an EV only spot (and was apparently there for many hours according to a Leaf owner parked across from me).
Of course their announcement shows that this summer a supercharger will be installed in or near Monterey, which would have solved that problem, and there are more on the way along Highway 1.
In fact, it looks like they'll be building some near some of the other out-of-the-way places I like to travel around the state. It looks like at least one is going in along Highway 395 along the Eastern Sierra.
The fact that they are reducing charging time is another bonus. 200 miles in 30 minutes for "free" is awesome. I enjoy the superchargers. It's often nice to chat with other Tesla owners there. When I stopped in Gilroy to charge I had 8 miles left. The fellow who pulled in next to me was down to 2 miles, and like me he had taken his car over a bunch of dirt roads. A standard level 2 charger gives me around 15-20 miles of range per hour. At a Supercharger I can get 15-20 miles of charge in 3 minutes!
While charging I can go stretch my legs, get a meal, check email, surf the web or whatever so I don't consider the delay that big of an issue.
Out of all the times I've used a supercharger I have never had to wait and there are usually plenty of places nearby to eat or shop while charging, even during Memorial Day weekend.
The superchargers really make road trips possible with electric vehicles. Sure, it's not as fast as filling a gasoline car, but 30 minutes for 200 miles is not bad! I suspect that when Tesla comes out with their 3rd generation coupe it will charge even faster since it will be a smaller and lighter vehicle.
Tesla seems to be well ahead of anybody else out there in terms of EV technology. Their batteries have the highest energy density for the lowest cost as well as a very compact electric motor. They spent a lot of effort on battery safety as well. I don't think synchronous motors can compete with induction motors when it comes to power density and I'm sure the cost of induction motors is also lower since there are no rare-earth magnets involved. The 420HP/445ft-lb induction motor in my Tesla is the size of a watermelon.
The Tesla power connector design is also much better than the J1772 Frankenplug or the huge CHaDeMo connector. Both the J1772 frankenplug and the CHaDeMo connectors are the size of a softball vs the much smaller Tesla connector. They have a small J1772 adapter and I'm sure they'll come out with additional adapters in the future for the frankenplug if it becomes popular.
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Or perhaps they could disrupt a profitable market, sell at an appreciable margin, and make lots of money before trying to build massive, Toyota-scale factories out of nothing?
This. Here in Norway the Tesla Model S is looking like a very compelling offer because they're getting all the tax breaks of electric vehicles and the taxes tend to be much higher on high end cars which means that here a $80k Model S Performance sells for about the same as a slightly upgraded Audi A6 that'd sell for $50k in the US. Or if you look at cars that'd be roughly even priced in the US like the $75k Audi A8 it sells for 90% more than the Tesla here. Yes, it's exploiting a tax structure that won't last but right now they're getting to sell a damn fine high performance car like it was the most environmental-friendly subcompact on the block.
They've confirmed that 1000+ people here are now on a waiting list in a country of 5 million people, that's the equivalent of 60k+ in the US. And that was before the 99/100 Consumer Reports score which was widely publicized. It's not petrol/diesel car volume but they're getting decent volume - it's not like you're one of ten people in the country who has one, they get real people who have experience with them - most people are very conservative and true to brand when it comes to car purchases - and they get to boot a charger network. All in all, I'd say this looks like wins all around for them. So far I think they've promised the EV perks will last out 2015, if they come to an end I expect a huge rush of Tesla Model S orders before that who are still waiting for the first round of kinks to be worked out first.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Actually the fast chargers should be more efficient. They're basically pumping DC directly into the battery, bypassing the car's built-in charging circuit. They're fed directly with 480V 3-phase power from a high voltage source. The two that I have seen are right next to a big HV power transformer. The Supercharger units themselves are about half the size of a refrigerator witha large fan on the side.for cooling. Lithium Ion batteries are typically quite efficient when charging as well.
Each Supercharger cost around $250,000 to build which isn't all that bad. So building 100 of them is only $25 million dollars, which is not all that much. They will more than pay for themselves in terms of added demand for their vehicles due to them.
They also have announced that they haven't ruled out battery swapping. There are inherent problems with battery swapping. Let's say your car has a new battery. What will be the condition of the battery that is swapped into your car? I could see it if you're leasing a battery instead.
The Tesla model S battery can be replaced in under 5 minutes. Better Place tried battery swapping and just went bankrupt. Perhaps Tesla can do it more successfully if they choose to do so. I would prefer to keep my battery and just wait the 30 minutes to add 200 miles of range.
As for a proprietary charging payment system, there isn't one. Tesla has promised that they'll be free to use forever, though cars with the smaller battery size will need to spend $2000 to activate that feature (the 85KWh battery cars don't have to pay to activate it). They are offsetting the electricity usage by installing solar (through Solar City, one of Elon Musk's other companies). If they wanted to do a payment system it would be easy. As a Tesla owner I have an account set up through their web site and the car is connected to the Internet. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement, no more so than ChargePoint or Blink, who have billing systems for using their EV chargers.
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and the charging station is probably being powered by a 40 year old coal powered power station
Tesla's superchargers are powered by solar cell farms operated by SolarCity.
sigs are hazardous to your health
Car enthusiasts think every single one of the world's top selling cars are pokey boring machines and that doesn't matter the tiniest bit to anyone else. I can guarantee that most car enthusiasts would pan every car I've ever owned. No one gives a crap about the opinion of car enthusiasts. For that matter the primary issue that car enthusiasts have had with electric cars is that they're slow, which the Tesla still is(by car enthusiast standards anyway).
Are you high? The Model S is one of the fastest production sedans on the planet, and far and away the fastest you can jam five or seven people in.
Nobody said they don't have to be replaced.
Just that the vast majority of them are running much longer than expected.
Only the first generation of Prius vehicles are reaching their 10 year life.
The Prius's use of the battery is fairly minimal -- most people wouldn't notice if the battery had lost 50% or more of its capacity. (The Prius gets its fuel efficiency from the Atkinson cycle engine, not from the electrics. The electrics are only there because the Atkinson engine has so little torque you'd never get the car moving without an electric "boost".)
If the battery was completely toast, you'd be stuck in a Prius, but even at 15-20% of the capacity, the car will drive just fine.
Smartphones used to be a "dumb idea" until better battery technology came along. Certainly tablets were a dumb idea.
The Apple Newton was a dumb idea until better battery technology came along but I bet the same people who get whipped into a fury at every mention of an electric car were creaming themselves over the Apple Newton.
Did I mention that Texas is getting better than 22% of it's electricity from wind turbines? Do you know how much of Germany's electricity comes from solar? Germany is a lot more cloudy than the US.
Only in the US do you hear the "Alternative Energy is a Scam!!" routine. I wonder why.
You are welcome on my lawn.
$0, they are covered under warranty. None of them is yet out of warranty.
$2500-$4000 will likely be the cost in 10 years or so when they start needing out of warranty replacement.
Because even the worst coal fired plant is leaps and bounds better than any traditional ICE.
Germany has so much solar because it has *insane* subsidies. It's moronic *not* to put money in solar in Germany, because (although this is changing), any excess power you produce *must* be bought by the power company at a very hefty multiple of the normal price. Germany is *not* the way we want to go here - in fact, the rush to solar and the Green's crusade against nuclear have created very significant instability in Germany' power grid. They are not far from the time that a large, dark front could crash the country.
Germany's subsidies are a lesson in how to create a really unsustainable ecosystem. It only works because Germany's industrial base is a world leader and makes enough to keep the socialist redistribution (barely) afloat. With its current balance of trade, I'm not sure that the US could even pull off German-style subsidies, and the Germans themselves are backing away from them very quickly as they begin to see the train wreck unfold.
BTW, fraud and abuse is rampant in the industry in general (I work in solar, and have worked int he oil industry - "green energy" really is thousands of times sleazier than oil & gas ever was) - in Spain, for instance (which also pays a premium for power delivered from solar plants), a large solar PV farm was caught using a bunch of generators to inject power into the grid at night - not only was this dirtier than a real power plant, they were getting many. many times more for that power since it was "green" because it came from a solar plant!
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last