Slashdot Mirror
Tesla To Blanket US With Superchargers In Two Years
dublin writes "Electric car manufacturer Tesla is planning to triple its construction of "supercharger" rapid charging stations, with a trail of stations in place for L.A. to New York trips by the end of this year. In addition to the east & west coasts, islands in Colorado, Illinois, and Texas will grow together to cover nearly the entire continental US by 2015. The two biggest obstacles for electric cars are high cost and range problems. Cost is still a problem, but this move to blanket the US with supercharger stations could fix the range half of the e-car equation."
... how long until flying electric cars?
This is great, but what they need to do is create and sell a highly inexpensive electric car, somewhere in the neighborhood of about $5 to $9k that everyone can buy, then as human envy takes over and everyone starts to covet the higher priced models with the more fancy gadgets and/or capabilities over what their neighbors and friends have, they will start buying higher priced models until they reach the $40k and $50K models and up.
cost is the MAIN problem.
Wait till you get to replace those batteries and discover the real costs :D
Don't tell me what you are going to do, tell me when you have it done.
I am sick and tired about all this "flying car in every garage" public relations dreck.
Tesla has made a map of where they intend to put the stations and how far you can drive from them. http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
First, 100 fast chargers does not a nationwide blanket make.
Second, these things are extremely expensive to install (especially if they're not immediately next to major power lines). We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Third, fast charges are very inefficient by comparison to level 2 chargers-- there's a lot of waste energy.
Fourth, fast chargers are most likely to be used midday when electricity is at its costliest.
So, they're expensive to install, wastes electricity, and are most likely to be used when electricity is at its most expensive. Thus, if they want to install them and want people to use them, there's going to have to be massive subsidies.
Or Tesla's spending themselves into a hole again because they figured out that the quagmire that is proprietary charging payment systems has stymied adoption and they're going to just do it themselves... because their product depends on it! And because they missed out on the only true future for battery-electric vehicles: Battery Swapping!
The negligible benefit of POV's that recharge from the fossil-fueled grid makes the entire carbon footprint thing a moot point. Essentially, the more individuals who take advantage of the electric automobile, the less the overall benefit to us as a community. We can barely/not quite barely amp the grid up in Texas and California to cover the summer's A/C demands... the supply is not there for millions of drivers to switch from a fossil fuel to electricity generated from the burning of fossil fuels.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Electric cars have long been a chicken or egg problem. We would have gladly rented a Tesla model S for our trip to New Orleans from Dallas last weekend (Elon, lend me a car when we can do this and we'll document the trip), but A) you can't readily rent a Tesla and b) there are no charging stations yet.
I think it's interesting that they're building out a "free forever" stations, and carpeting the nation with them. They probably represent a fixed cost, as you can only charge so many cars per day, and eventually competing stations will pop up along the most popular routes. Electricity really isn't that expensive.
I was thinking about how US automakers might try and sue Tesla in federal court over providing "fuel" for the cars, but I wonder if the "free forever" is due in part to the fact that it's much more difficult to sue a company for anti-competitive practices if there's no money changing hands in the fueling process.
moox. for a new generation.
Are these plugs public ? If so, do they only key to Tesla cars ?
Or can I deliver the Lexor 3000 to the masses and have 'em charge for free at the Tesla stops ?
(then again tin cans for the masses aren't working so well for Tata right now...)
Regards, Lex
It also partly solves the cost equation, since you will save money on gas. OK, it doesn't cover the cost of the battery / car, but those prices will come down over time. I'm starting to think that this could in fact be the start of a new era for transportation.
And then when everyone has an electric car, they will start charging to charge your car. 5 dollars a KW or something lol
Third, fast charges are very inefficient by comparison to level 2 chargers-- there's a lot of waste energy.
As much waste energy as carting around an inefficient internal combustion engine, that gets at best 30% efficiency? I think not.
I am artificially intelligent.
Actually, you are a bit off, Cost of install depends on size of install. 4 station charger will cost more than a 1 or 2 station. The power draw is easy enough to get around as they are installed in commercial districts with more than enough power available. Most of them are being installed in conjunction with Solar panels anyways. Eventually these will be refueling stations at a cost to all electric cars so the costs to build them will be fully recouped.
You're right that they're more efficient than combustion engines, but so are bicycles. The point is that fast charges are not the future-- they're a dead end to a technology.
Battery swapping, on the other hand, is the most cost efficient, environmentally friendly, and quickest form of refueling an battery EV.
Interesting idea with solar powered recharge stations... you could put automated recharge stations in the middle of nowhere where it's inconvenient to ship gas to, like long stretches of empty highway in the American Southwest. Of course, it will be a while before solar can keep up with the demand of anything more than a very low volume station but the potential is there.
DATELINE Shoreham, New York
Elecrical wizard Nicola Tesla plans to cover these United States with a system of his power-distributing towers by the end of 1915. These wonders of the modern electrified age will send power to homes and appliances without the need for wires and cables and surely put the makers of gas lamps out of business!
What an awesome future, the past had.
Of course they will only work with Tesla cars. While I understand that it helps sell Tesla brand cars, it does not really help the electric car movement as a whole. Is he going to include a Mc Donalds at every location so they can have a wonderful, healthy bite to eat while they wait?
The only real way to get people on-board with electric cars is to not waste time having to futz around with charging, slow, fast, or 'super'. The only real solution to this is really to have battery swap stations. You pull up, the battery is swapped, and you pay for the power used in the old battery plus a service charge for the swap. It's really the only way to get charged up in just a few minutes, not tens of minutes. In this model, you do not own the battery but rather renting it. This also takes care of the expense of having to replace the battery that you own after ten or so years. As battery technology progresses and power densities increase, you get the benefit of increased range in the same battery format. All automatically.
The down side to this is that electric car manufacturers have to standardize on just a few specific battery pack configurations. Oooooh. That's a deal breaker. Fucking get over it and standardize already.
Now, I know that this is /. and I can already hear your cries of 'That will never work' and 'What a stupid idea' and 'They already tried that and they failed'. Well, to that I say - yes they tried, but it does not mean that it is the wrong way to go. They just could not sell it to enough people. Open your mind to the possibility of it actually being done right.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
While 30 minutes is great compared to waiting several hours, they need to really bring that recharge time down by a factor of 5 or more. Being able to stop for a recharge in many places is good, but for longer trips (which mentioning coast-to-coast travel seems to be pointing towards) waiting for half an hour every charging cycle will start to add up on your travel time.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I feel like this is trying to force the current gas station paradigm (refuel, adding 300-500 miles of range in 5-10 minutes) onto EVs, when that paradigm doesn't really fit well.
Based on a little Googling, Tesla's Superchargers can apparently charge 50% of an 85 kwh battery in about 30 minutes. Not bad (a bit over twice the charge rate of DC fast charging on a Leaf), but based on the EPA estimated range of 265 miles, that gives you about 130 miles of range. So every 130 miles, you stop for 30 minutes - more if all Superchargers at a station are in use. While I'm all for taking frequent breaks on long trips, this is a lot more than the usual 10 minutes every few hundred miles.
To match gas station refuel times, the power requirements get ridiculous pretty fast. Superchargers put out 120 kw according to Tesla. Let's say we have a hypothetical battery that can take a full 85-kwh charge (265 miles) in 5 minutes like a gas pump. That's 12 times faster than the Supercharger rate of half-capacity in 30 minutes, or 1.44 MW per car! By way of comparison, most (many?) homes in the US have 240-volt, 100-amp service, or 24 kw maximum available power. 1.44 MW is equivalent to 60 homes all maxed out and about to trip breakers! If a typical charging station will service a similar number of cars as a gas station, multiply that by maybe 10 - or 600 maxed out homes. For one refueling station. Insanity. It gets even worse if you want more than 265 miles of range in 5 minutes.
The bottom line is that even if battery technology gets there, how will the grid handle such quick charging? I see that being the bigger obstacle to EV road trips as convenient as gas-powered trips are now.
The easier solution is to shift the paradigm - how we think about and use our vehicles. Everyone could have an EV for commuting and regular driving within its nominal range. You charge at night or any other time when you're not using the car anyway - NOT when you are on a trip and just want to keep going (but can't, until you wait to recharge). If/when you need to take a long road trip, you take a gas-powered car. Either an extra car in your household, a rental, borrowed from someone you know. Whatever. Or if you're not hauling a bunch of stuff, maybe it makes more sense to fly.
As a current EV owner (Nissan Leaf), I've already made the switch in paradigm - and I love it. I'm saving tons of money on fuel costs, driving my Leaf over 16k miles per year. Pretty much every trip within its range will use that car, because it's cheaper and fun to drive. Going to Vegas (from SoCal)? We use the other car. Or any longer trip. Most multi-driver households have multiple cars, so road trips shouldn't really be an issue. I think this kind of strategy makes way more sense than seriously increasing travel time (waiting to charge) or the failed battery swap idea.
Battery swapping, on the other hand, is the most cost efficient, environmentally friendly, and quickest form of refueling an battery EV.
That would seem more credible if the company that tried it hadn't recently gone out of business.
The range bubbles are one way distance. To verify this look at the one surrounding Denver. Colorado is about 380 miles across, and the diameter of that bubble is slightly larger, so they have about a 200 mile radius. The advertized range for the two Tesla S models are 230 & 300 miles, so neither can drive from a charging station to the edge of a bubble and back.
Third, fast charges are very inefficient by comparison to level 2 chargers-- there's a lot of waste energy.
As much waste energy as carting around an inefficient internal combustion engine, that gets at best 30% efficiency?
I think not.
The efficiency of the average power plant isn't much better.
Third, fast charges are very inefficient by comparison to level 2 chargers-- there's a lot of waste energy.
As much waste energy as carting around an inefficient internal combustion engine, that gets at best 30% efficiency?
I think not.
I wonder about that, because of line losses, which are significant, a lot of power is lost just sending the power to the charging station. Then you're ramping up losses further at the charging station and adding battery losses on top of that. You sure you aren't past the 30% mark by this point?
Well, when you consider that the Tesla engine isn't 100% efficient, that the charging process isn't 100% efficient, and the charging station is probably being powered by a 40 year old coal powered power station which is actually less efficient than an internal combustion engine in the first place, not to mention substantially dirtier(yes even coal power can be more efficient than your car, but only if you have a new plant and most places don't).
If you belive that's a good idea, I'll trade you my fully charged 5 year old laptop battery for that mostly depleted new one.
I am NOT stopping for 30 minutes every "half tank" on a 3000 mile road trip from LA to NY.
Fuck no.
When an EV can go 500 miles on a charge and refill in 5 minutes, then we'll talk.
If so they'd better include a pair of sneakers with the purchase of each car.
doomed to failure.
go from here to there only on the path we pick?
not going to work.
regards
mike
Second, these things are extremely expensive to install (especially if they're not immediately next to major power lines). We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I'm guessing that you've never had to build a gasoline station. Environmental assessments. Underground excavation. Costly double-walled tanks and plumbing. Inspections. Insurance in case you contaminate the local soil or water with spilled fuel. And it's not like you get a pipeline direct to the station--every gallon you sell has to be trucked in.
~Idarubicin
If other car makers could license the charging connector and rate from Tesla through them or through a standards body the EV market could take off once all of these charging stations are built. Only issue then is waiting half an hour for 66% charge and waiting for others to finish charging.
You're right that they're more efficient than combustion engines, but so are bicycles. The point is that fast charges are not the future-- they're a dead end to a technology.
Battery swapping, on the other hand, is the most cost efficient, environmentally friendly, and quickest form of refueling an battery EV.
I think chargers are a pretty reasonable solution to a relatively rare problem: how to recharge your car when you want to drive more than a couple of hundred miles at a stretch.
What's more, the batteries weigh quite a bit (http://www.roperld.com/science/TeslaModelS.htm) 1200lbs for the S. Anyone can plug a car in. 1200lbs of battery would be a bit rough to handle. Even 1/10th that would be too much to deal with.
If the company owned the batteries and you just rented them it would work. Combined with some sort of standardized battery and automated swapping system it sounds relatively fast and easy to me.
If they only charge Tesla vehicles, that would be like building gas stations that only sell proprietary fuel for Ford vehicles. Maybe sell the juice cheaper to Tesla owners but they need to provide high current plugs for all of the major electric vehicles.
Cross-country travel is still gong to be a hard sell, tho. They're talking about 30 minutes to 50% charge. So call it an hour to 90% and 1.5 hours to 100%. And I assume they're talking about the small Tesla pack to get the best numbers. And non-Tesla vehicles will have to be charged at a more conservative rate so they're going to have people hanging around for an hour or two charging their vehicles. That's a lot of time to kill.
Yeah, that is a valid comparison, because it is well known that gasoline flies by itself from refineries to gas stations, right ?
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
It would be more credible to claim that the ONLY company that tried is bankrupt. You can almost always find a pioneering company that failed.
Perhaps fuel cells are the future or maybe someone will invent the Shipstone or Mr Fusion, but battery swap, I believe, can be viable and profitable.
Better Place was too far ahead of the curve or was focusing on the wrong niche.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
A smarter solution would be a standardized replaceable battery pack, then centralize charging.
CHP / cogeneration's efficiency is pretty good; hydroelectric's efficiency is very close to awesome.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
I think the idea is that you're supposed to charge overnight at 115V or 230V in Vegas.
That's fine when the edge of the circle is your destination. But the fact that these are one way circles makes the map very deceptive. For example, take a look at the Fall 2013 map. It would seem that Toronto to NYC is a feasible trip, but it isn't, at least not by supercharger.
If you improve one inefficient plant, that automatically improves 10000 EVs.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Such stations could have their own storage systems that charge when the electricity isn't as expensive, which would replace their need for generators as well if they can hook it up to their systems as a backup. Not a great cost saving measure, but it would be in the right step. That is if EV are the way of the future. Another source of energy than gasoline is needed for sure, but electric vehicles just don't seem good enough. There just isn't any other good alternative aside self-charging cars maybe or fail-safe mini-reactors.
Great car but they don't get it. A car isn't practical for the general public unless you can add at least 300 miles or range in under 5 minutes. What I can't understand is why they don't just make a exchangeable battery pack that fits in the trunk. For day to day use the on board battery is fine and for long trips you can just swap out a extended range battery. There is still room for luggage in the front.
"A good friend will bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, 'damn....that was fun!'"
Funny, I was just reading this a little while ago:
"âoeAt the time of the latest record, wind generation accounted for 22 percent of the power demand of 34,318 MWâ¦Wind farms expanded rapidly in Texas until 2009 when production began to overwhelm the existing transmission capacityâ¦Texas is building more than 2,300 miles (3,700 km) of high-voltage transmission in a $6.5 billion plan to expand the grid by late 2013 to accommodate wind-farm growth of up to 18,500 MW" - Reuters.
Maybe those 40 year-old coal plants won't be needed too much longer. I imagine getting 18,500MW without burning or consuming anything at all is pretty efficient.
You are welcome on my lawn.
30% is max efficiency, which usually occurs at around 75% output power. You don't use anywhere near that much power cruising (with the possible exceptions of Montana and the Autobahn). Average efficiency in driving is 14-26% according to this: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml That's a frustratingly wide range, but you get the idea. IIRC coal plants are about 40%. Combined cycle natural gas powered plants are approaching 60%.
Second, these things are extremely expensive to install (especially if they're not immediately next to major power lines). We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars.
If it only cost hundreds of thousands, great!
However, it seems to me that you don't even have a basic understanding of construction costs.
"His name was James Damore."
With a gas-powered car, you can drive to the next town or next state and fill up. Maybe even the next street if the gas station has backup generators. If the "gas" station relies on the same grid, you're up the creek in a really bad way that you aren't right now.
Big Oil has long gone out of its way to stifle any advances in automotive technologies which would depends on other sources of fuel than petrol. More than likely by now electric cars should be a defacto standard for urban driving. We are at least 20 yrs behind because of Big Oil. I wish it was a conspiracy theory, but its true and many people got either paid off and/or were silence all in the name of gasoline.
Also, they can build biomass digesters near the windfarms to convert all the eagles, condors, and migratory birds being chopped up into even more clean energy. It's a win-win situation for sure.
Every restaurant along a major highway should be looking at installing an electric vehicle charger. If I'm taking a trip in an electric car and getting hungry, you can bet I'll choose the stop that lets me charge the car at the same time.
Sure, the Tesla supercharger may be expensive to install due to the power requirements, but even a standard 220V charger would be enough to make me decide to eat there instead of somewhere else. Even if my trip doesn't require extra charging, having extra power in case I encounter something unexpected is a good thing.
They don't have to. They can use all the birds, fish and crabs that were killed in the gulf oil spill. Better than just letting them rot on the beaches all across the gulf coast.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Telsa only finally made money this quarter because of energy credits paid to it by other auto makers. That cost is passed to consumers in higher prices from those companies. The tax incentives to buy an electric car is money out of everyone pocket to make up the difference. Telsa is already losing money on every one of its cars and the market for a $60-100K car is not going to suddenly increase so demand will not go up much.
Forbes explains the current and future Telsa situation pretty good.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmichaels/2013/05/27/if-tesla-would-stop-selling-cars-wed-all-save-some-money/
I think the idea is that you're supposed to charge overnight at 115V or 230V in Vegas.
That's fine when the edge of the circle is your destination. But the fact that these are one way circles makes the map very deceptive. For example, take a look at the Fall 2013 map. It would seem that Toronto to NYC is a feasible trip, but it isn't, at least not by supercharger.
According to marketing, if you leave Toronto in the Fall of 2013 and drive slow enough that you hit new stations coming online in early 2014... then you're OK. :)
And a solar thermal heat engine running a turbine with 800 degree pressurized steam can get close to 60% efficient. 60% efficient of the nigh inexhaustible power of the solar systems most powerful thermonuclear furnace.
Here is a pretty neat article on how the Chevy Volt uses its battery to modulate energy production from its internal combustion engine, allowing it to run nearer its optimal range more of the time. Note it is right in its sweet spot at 72 mph. (That said the car gets 'only' 40 mpg on the highway on gas, even though it can bypass the electrical drivetrain on the highway. It does weigh 700 lb more than a Prius so maybe the problem is the weight of the batteries which aren't very useful on long trips, but could allow you to drive up to 40 miles per day in the city without ever buying gas again.)
Regarding automobiles, the word supercharger already has a specific meaning, Find another word.
The other day I saw an advertisement for a wireless music receiver. Back in the day, we had something like that. We called it a radio.
I'm really looking forward to this. Last weekend I took my model S down to Big Sur to do some camping and used a bit more power than I anticipated while driving over dirt roads and due to a headwind driving back north. On my way back I had to stop for a bit in Monterey at a level 2 charger to add a few miles before I could reach the Gilroy supercharger. I ended up having to unplug a Volt who was taking up an EV only spot (and was apparently there for many hours according to a Leaf owner parked across from me).
Of course their announcement shows that this summer a supercharger will be installed in or near Monterey, which would have solved that problem, and there are more on the way along Highway 1.
In fact, it looks like they'll be building some near some of the other out-of-the-way places I like to travel around the state. It looks like at least one is going in along Highway 395 along the Eastern Sierra.
The fact that they are reducing charging time is another bonus. 200 miles in 30 minutes for "free" is awesome. I enjoy the superchargers. It's often nice to chat with other Tesla owners there. When I stopped in Gilroy to charge I had 8 miles left. The fellow who pulled in next to me was down to 2 miles, and like me he had taken his car over a bunch of dirt roads. A standard level 2 charger gives me around 15-20 miles of range per hour. At a Supercharger I can get 15-20 miles of charge in 3 minutes!
While charging I can go stretch my legs, get a meal, check email, surf the web or whatever so I don't consider the delay that big of an issue.
Out of all the times I've used a supercharger I have never had to wait and there are usually plenty of places nearby to eat or shop while charging, even during Memorial Day weekend.
The superchargers really make road trips possible with electric vehicles. Sure, it's not as fast as filling a gasoline car, but 30 minutes for 200 miles is not bad! I suspect that when Tesla comes out with their 3rd generation coupe it will charge even faster since it will be a smaller and lighter vehicle.
Tesla seems to be well ahead of anybody else out there in terms of EV technology. Their batteries have the highest energy density for the lowest cost as well as a very compact electric motor. They spent a lot of effort on battery safety as well. I don't think synchronous motors can compete with induction motors when it comes to power density and I'm sure the cost of induction motors is also lower since there are no rare-earth magnets involved. The 420HP/445ft-lb induction motor in my Tesla is the size of a watermelon.
The Tesla power connector design is also much better than the J1772 Frankenplug or the huge CHaDeMo connector. Both the J1772 frankenplug and the CHaDeMo connectors are the size of a softball vs the much smaller Tesla connector. They have a small J1772 adapter and I'm sure they'll come out with additional adapters in the future for the frankenplug if it becomes popular.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
The goal is to put a solar canopy over them to help power the station. Probably once the onsite batteries are charged, they'd even be able to make money on some of the lesser used routes. It's not so bad when you're wasting solar panel since it's going to waste anyways.
Battery swapping may seem like a common sense idea, but the technology in batteries isn't there that we can have a small enough batter package that can be robust enough to be swapped.
Especially if you don't plan to eat during your coast-to-coast trip.
Never, ever running the gasoline engine in a Volt would be a seriously detrimental thing, if for no other reason than the facts that gasoline gets a bit funky as it ages and engines are made to be run. Bad things happen to them during long periods of disuse if not properly prepared.
40 miles a day in a Volt and never buy gas again? Good luck a few years from now when you need to go 41 miles.
Kid-proof tablet..
Better yet; they could burn all of the birds, fish and crabs since nothing else will be happening with that oil!
So if we combine a business arrangement that doesn't currently exist with a robotic system that doesn't currently exist that pulls standard batteries that don't exist from cars using the standard swapping system that doesn't exist it's easy
So if we combine a business arrangement that doesn't currently exist with a robotic system that doesn't currently exist that pulls standard batteries that don't exist from cars using the standard swapping system that doesn't exist it's easy
Exactly! Could I borrow a few billion dollars?
Yeah really. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger
The Official Site of 1337 Pwnage
So, you plan on doing a coast to coast road trip and only plan to stop for 6 minutes each time the tank is running on empty?
I suppose you plan on packing all your food to eat on the road as well as a bunch of empty bottles to piss in (please throw them out at the filling station, rather than dropping a pee bomb on the highway.)
What is your plan for doing #2?
Seriously, for long road trips, waiting 30 minutes is not a big deal.
For local driving, you have more than enough charge until you get home to charge over night.
From the article - and I agree - "ranges limited, charge times long, and prices high". Nuff said.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I am all for this new cheap motoring, it sits well with my almost free household electricity that comes from nuclear plants and my existing diesel car which uses almost free byproducts from the petroleum production process. I also have broadbandwith whichi can download as many terabytes as I like for pennies a day.
The best part is that this situation will continue forever.
Electric cars don't require forced induction.
It would be more credible to claim that the ONLY company that tried is bankrupt. You can almost always find a pioneering company that failed. Perhaps fuel cells are the future or maybe someone will invent the Shipstone or Mr Fusion, but battery swap, I believe, can be viable and profitable. Better Place was too far ahead of the curve or was focusing on the wrong niche.
It's not. Electric cars have batteries form fitted as part of the chassis. To have them in a standard form easily swappable outside the bearing structure would be a dramatic design limitation (as in functional design, not just looks).
Or take the northern route.
Actually the fast chargers should be more efficient. They're basically pumping DC directly into the battery, bypassing the car's built-in charging circuit. They're fed directly with 480V 3-phase power from a high voltage source. The two that I have seen are right next to a big HV power transformer. The Supercharger units themselves are about half the size of a refrigerator witha large fan on the side.for cooling. Lithium Ion batteries are typically quite efficient when charging as well.
Each Supercharger cost around $250,000 to build which isn't all that bad. So building 100 of them is only $25 million dollars, which is not all that much. They will more than pay for themselves in terms of added demand for their vehicles due to them.
They also have announced that they haven't ruled out battery swapping. There are inherent problems with battery swapping. Let's say your car has a new battery. What will be the condition of the battery that is swapped into your car? I could see it if you're leasing a battery instead.
The Tesla model S battery can be replaced in under 5 minutes. Better Place tried battery swapping and just went bankrupt. Perhaps Tesla can do it more successfully if they choose to do so. I would prefer to keep my battery and just wait the 30 minutes to add 200 miles of range.
As for a proprietary charging payment system, there isn't one. Tesla has promised that they'll be free to use forever, though cars with the smaller battery size will need to spend $2000 to activate that feature (the 85KWh battery cars don't have to pay to activate it). They are offsetting the electricity usage by installing solar (through Solar City, one of Elon Musk's other companies). If they wanted to do a payment system it would be easy. As a Tesla owner I have an account set up through their web site and the car is connected to the Internet. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement, no more so than ChargePoint or Blink, who have billing systems for using their EV chargers.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
I have heard from multiple sources that each Supercharger cost around $250,000 to build. Out of curiosity I looked up the price of a 1000KVA transformer for 480V 3-phase and it was around $26K for a refurbished one. I know Tesla is very cost conscious from my tour of the factory. They were showing off one of their ceiling mounted cranes. They bought 10 of them for something like $60K when they were normally $100K each new.
The construction costs should not be that high from the two Superchargers I have been to. They basically poured four concrete peers where the posts with the cables are installed and a concrete pad off to the side which contains a large transformer and a couple Supercharger towers, each about half the size of a refrigerator. The transformer takes high voltage in and steps it down to 3-phase 480V which is then fed into the Superchargers. Each one is capable of outputting 120KW split between two vehicles. The wiring to each post needs to handle up to 255 amps so I'm guessing it's likely 1 gauge wire.
There's nothing fancy at the Superchargers I have been to. No big obilisk or solar covered roof like they show in the pictures (maybe some have that, but neither the Gilroy nor the Folsom ones have that). I understand later they plan to build out the solar panels which will add more cost, but the cost is supposed to offset the power used and then some.
I think the Superchargers will more than pay for themselves by increasing demand for their cars. Once they build out their network some more it will completely elimintate the need for my gasoline car for 99% of my driving. If I really need a gasoline car I can just rent one.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
You're right that they're more efficient than combustion engines, but so are bicycles. The point is that fast charges are not the future-- they're a dead end to a technology.
Battery swapping, on the other hand, is the most cost efficient, environmentally friendly, and quickest form of refueling an battery EV.
There are plenty of super capacitors and similar improvements in battery technology coming that will you to charge your car in 2-3 min..
and the charging station is probably being powered by a 40 year old coal powered power station
Tesla's superchargers are powered by solar cell farms operated by SolarCity.
sigs are hazardous to your health
Waiting in line at these charge stations is going to suck.
So I guess this means they don't have much faith in their new battery. The Al/AlO battery from phenergy I mean. The one they somewhat recently acquired the patent to.
Define "rapid" in "rapid charging stations" please. It could still mean something like 45 minutes, which is "rapid" compared to the 5-6 hours needed to normally charge a Tesla. Assume you have to cover 700km. If you must do 400km, then wait 45 minutes sitting in a charging station before you continue your trip, I am not interested. And that is assuming they can work out the cost problems. The total cost of ownership of a Tesla for 10 years is still higher than the one of a gasoline powered hatchback or sedan.
You have a good point, but you should have RTFA. It says the rapid charge stations take 30 minutes to charge the battery halfway. Which is why my money says this is all a huge waste. No one wants to sit at some station half an hour to be able to drive another hour and a half.
I think putting in such charging stations is pointless, unless you have the battery tech to the point where they're actually useful for the average driver. And that would mean charging 3-5 hours worth of driving time in 15 minutes or less. Personally, I don't think we're likely to get there any time soon, if ever. I think we're more likely to find ways to increase the total capacity of car batteries so you can do a day's worth of driving on one charge, then charge overnight.
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
No, you don't swap out the battery. It's too build into the car to easily remove and would take a lot of structural integrity out of the chassis to make one removable.
Instead, what you do is swap out the whole car. Drive to the next station, move your luggage and CD's and change, and everything into another car and continue on your way. That sounds about as reasonable as battery swap. And much more easy to do.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
So they can charge their car for free. Nice, people living close to the interstate can just go there all the time to charge their car.
However, this poses some interesting side effects:
Even with solar power there is still a maintenance cost involved. Sure the electricity they can generate for free, but solar panels and inverters cost money.
What happens if they blanket the US? Will people need to pay then? Will people accept or will it be considered 'normal' that an electric car can be recharged for free.
Basically i'm interested on Tesla's mid/long term plan (for global domination).
Bathroom breaks don't take half an hour. And meal breaks are taken when the location and time of day is agreeable, which *MIGHT* be, but is not particularly statistically likely to be at the exact same point or time that you always need to recharge.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The engineers at GM are well aware of this, and the Volt's computer is subsequently aware of it. If you have not filled in ~6 months, it will alert you to add fresh gas. If you don't, it will start burning off the old gas to force you to do so.
But thanks for this perfect illustration of the "But what about [problem that everyone knows about]? You'll be fucked!" comment.
That 30 minutes only gets you half a charge, which amounts to barely 2-2.5 hours of driving time. That means if you wanted to spend the day driving (10-12 hours) you'd spend over two hours sitting at charging stations. That's absolutely terrible.
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
"especially if they're not immediately next to major power lines"
None of those on major roads, no..
(And no, these do not need to be near 'major', i.e. transmission, lines. Any 3-phase primary is sufficient, same as most commercial customers)
Same with the Tesla. Going 300 miles without a recharge is useful occasionally, but how light and quick would the same car be with just enough to easily get me to work and back, some 20 miles.
superchargers are widely used on locomotives, ships, generators, the term will be around for many decades
Volt engineers thought of that and the Volt asks to run the gas engine every now and then if you aren't using it, just to make sure it is ready when you do need it.
Environmentally toxic, short lived and manufacturing energy intensive battery power is not the way forward, biofuel from plants grown on scrubland (e.g. sagebrush) is the sensible carbon-neutral solution for long range vehicles such as we already have.
All hybrids do that. Even my cheap insight keeps the engine RPMs in the most efficient range.
It sounds strange, but maybe the answer isn't a swappable battery but a swappable passenger compartment.
Note that if the photovoltaic farm is being installed to power the chargers, then the cost of the photovoltaic farm should be included in the cost of the charging station.
Also consider the amount of electricity per square foot that can be generated even by some of the higher end panels today. How much area would be needed to charge a single Nissan Leaf @ level 2 versus a Tesla at level 3/fast charge? Enough to charge 2 cars simultaneously? If not that, then the sheer amount of batteries required to store the power until needed.
Let's see...
1 battery @ 1200 lbs - too heavy to swap out without significant mechanical help
2 batteries @ 600 lbs each - still to heavy
3 batteries @ 400 lbs each - no dice
4 batteries @ 300 lbs each - might be able to do this with mechanical assistance
5 batteries @ 240 lbs each - same
10 batteries @ 120 lbs each - can do this with mechanical assistance, but changing 10 batteries is going to take almost as long as charging would
20 batteries @ 60 lbs each - still need mechanical assistance, or you'll throw out your back
40 batteries @ 30 lbs each - can be done *eventually* without mechanical assistance, but again, you'll charge faster than you can swap them all
50 batteries @ 24 lbs each - almost anybody could do this swap. In about an hour and a half.
And, you'll end up with more space/weight per unit of energy, because now you've got *multiple* batteries which need charging circuitry, casing, etc.
Battery swapping might be practical on smaller vehicles, like motorcycles, but it's unlikely to be practical for cars and trucks any time soon.
I never said it was cheap to do anything with gasoline. Instead, I quite directly say that installing fast chargers are so cost-prohibitively expensive that it's likely that they're being subsidized by the federal government to serve expensive, wasteful electricity to the very, very few people who would actually use them.
At the very least, gasoline stations are paid for by private industry and will be able to pay off their own expense. These fast chargers are just getting people used to sub-market value fuel prices.
My comment here spurred fantastic conversation. How in the world did it get modded "troll"? Is this a case of "disagreement modding"?
It's great for Tesla owners that SuperChargers will be blanketing the nation, but I have a LEAF and wonder if, when SuperChargers start appearing near me, will I be able to charge there - paying for it as I would with Blink or any other EV charging network.
I see mixed news on this. My LEAF SV has two charging receptacles: a standard SAE J1772-2009 connector for level 1 and 2 charging (120/220 volts AC) and a JARI high-voltage DC connector designed by TEPCO for DC fast charging (480 volts DC 125 amps) using the CHAdeMO protocol.
The Tesla S uses a proprietary connector. The connectors are not the issue, as they can be added quite trivially.
It is Tesla's business decision to either permit or forbid competing vehicles to be customers of their charging facilities. Does anyone know of "other" vehicles can or will be able to use the Tesla facilities?
Petrol has an incredibly energy density, it's why there are no alternatives that can scale. Telsa's vehicles are just gimmicks. Carrying around a ton of laptop batteries is pathetic design, and just wait until all these fashion statement cards need $15,000 battery packs on the second owner's bill.
It doesn't have to fully blanket the nation, just enough to get you from one station to the other.
Once you do that, there's a chance you'll have towns and cities begging Tesla to install them as well - similar to how the old rail system used to work when rail transportation was king. The towns used to fete the railway executives into building a stop in their town because it attracts people there, and with people comes money.
And since a Tesla is a luxury car, even if a station cost $1M to build, just having it could easily bring in tons of itinerant Tesla owners willing to spend some dough in town.
It's like how advertisers pay more for iOS eyeballs than Android eyeballs - because IOS users tend to buy stuff they sell. Your own little Leaf or Volt customer won't bring much money in, but richer Tesla owners?
...and then there's that first leak.
Relax. It's the first customer to ever use the men's room. Sheesh.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
You're, the Tesla, the charger, and the power plant aren't 100% efficient. But as an aggregate, they're significantly more efficient than the typical ICE-powered automobile, which gets roughly 16-20% power efficiency from tank to road. That's right, the typical ICE-powered car loses *more* than 80% of the energy stored in it's fuel to various inefficiencies in it's engine, transmission, etc.
Are there adapters for these superchargers so one can charge up other vehicles or devices? I can just see people hooking up their campers for free electricity at some of the low traffic supercharger stations. lol
In some places in the Southwest, it's over 110 degrees F for most of the summer.
I have yet to hear any specific details about how running an air-conditioner affects range on full-electric vehicles, especially when sitting in rush-hour traffic. It might not be as much of an issue if HOV lane rules were enforced, but it seems that only 3 out of every 5 vehicles in that lane are legally allowed to be using it and shouldn't be clogging it up -- so it sucks just as much as every other lane.
Of course, it should be even more obvious to put electric car chargers at hotels. When spending the night, you don't even need the high-speed superchargers. And as we're seeing more plug-in hybrids showing up, these won't just be used by pure electric cars. It's another way for a hotel to differentiate themselves and attract more business.
I live in St. Louis. That means that on a long road trip the supercharger stations I am most likely to use are in Bloomington, IL... Columbia, MO... and Springfield, MO. That'll get me as far as Kansas City, Tulsa or Chicago at which point I can charge again.
Quite frankly, when I drive to Chicago (about once a year), I typically stop in Bloomington for about half an hour to an hour anyway. It's a nice break point in the drive, and they have a lovely downtown. I know exactly where the Supercharger station is going in and it's within walking distance to some great restaurants and cafes.
Columbia, MO is a similar story... I don't know where the SC will go in but it's a college town with some fabulous eateries and cafes. No complaints there.
Springfield... ditto. I don't drive down that way as often as the other two, but again there are some nice places in Springfield. Nice area of the state.
All three of these places are often where I stop for gas, too. Even though I don't need it, I like to stop and fill her up. While doing so I tend to park the car and wander around a bit to keep blood flowing and stop being such a damned couch potato. Sitting still for 6 hours with only a 5 minute break doesn't sound like fun to me.
If I were to own a Tesla Model S, I would have to change precisely nothing about my lifestyle in terms of driving today. I would not have to particularly put any great planning into it, and in fact I might find myself with more time to myself because I don't have to detour a mile out of my way on the way to work in order to make sure I hit a gas station. Believe it or not on my daily commute there are ZERO gas stations by the side of the road... they're all quite a ways off. Minimum detour is just under a mile by the time you get off the highway, get gas and get back on. If my car is "fueled" in my garage every night then I'll never have to do this detour again. My life would be made better by a Model S or similar vehicle even without the SC stations... the SC stations just mean that I can take trips in that vehicle that I currently can't. Having said that, I don't often take my car to KC or Chicago, either... Chicago is the more frequent of the two but even then I usually fly.
But they're far too late to the game to be a major player. Natural gas has the same infrastructure obstruction they've been slowly overcoming, a far more cost competitive product, and a solid established user base in industry and public transportation. NG is the immediate future. Solar might follow it.
Renault was able to do it with the Fluence ZE - the only physical differences from the ICE version are the greater curb weight and an extra 5 inches length.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
And thanks for this perfect illustration of the "but I didn't even follow the context!"
OP was expressing that a Volt owner driving the car less than 40 miles a day would never need to buy gas again.
Which I'm sure we can both agree is utter bullshit in practical terms.
(And, no: I didn't know that the Volt had such functionality as automatically burning off old gas. That's a neat trick, even if it doesn't invalidate anything I said. But what happens when it lives in a garage?)
Kid-proof tablet..
This might cause a major culture shift in road trips. One, forcing a 30 minute rest every 3-4 hours will do wonders for driver fatigue and provide an easy opportunity for driver swapping. Second, when you can't iron-man a 1,400 mile trip in less than a day, it becomes more probable you'll take a second to stop and take in the local scenery and culture of the area of the US you're driving through. This could do wonders for bringing the country back together since people won't be traveling from one microcosm to another without interacting with all those in between.