The Amish Are Getting Fracked

An anonymous reader writes "Old school meets business school. From the New Republic: 'The Amish interpretation of the Christian bible prohibits the use of the courts: Except in rare circumstances, the Amish do not sue. This has created a unique problem in the region. Home to the largest Amish community in the world, Eastern Ohio sits squarely on top of the Utica and Marcellus Shale formations, which contain billions in oil and gas recoverable through advances in hydraulic fracturing technology, or fracking ... When it comes to the oil and gas industry, this means that any agreement an Amish farmer makes with a company is, for the farmer, practically unenforceable. A rare case in which the plaintiffs were Amish suggests that Ohio's oil and gas companies know this and have been willing to take advantage.'"

Comments

Religion and ethics vs. money

[Anonymous Coward]

I know who I'd bet on every time.

Re:Religion and ethics vs. money

[Errol backfiring]

But usually in combination with money. Heck, money is its own religion nowadays. Most of those winning religious people believe more in the "invisible hand" than in the ten commandments.

But, Corporations are People!

[cphilo]

Except they have no ethics or morality. Or shame.

Re:But, Corporations are People!

[Archangel Michael]

Who taps every Verizon Wireless phone.

Who targets the enemies of the administration via IRS

Who use tax payer money to fund junkets to Anaheim (Disneyland) (IRS)

Who claim they need to review rules, regulations and procedures (they violated) in the tapping of Reporter's phones.

The government and corporations are the same. They are people, without conscience.

"Is it Legal"

"I will make it legal"

Re:But, Corporations are People!

[P-niiice]

I can play this game. Who forces farmers to rebuy GMO seed every year? Who overpays CEO's and upper management to the tune of up to 399 times the lowest wage? Who sidesteps billions in taxes that could build american infrastructure or help millions of Americans improve their lives? Who uses American tax breaks and then refuses to hire american despite huge profits? Who vastly overcharges for routine medical supplies like aspirin in hopes that it won't be caught on a bill? "Is it ethical?" "My friends in congress and media will make it ethical."

Re:But, Corporations are People!

[Minwee]

Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do, we do!

Who keeps Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps? We do, we do!

Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star? We do, we do!

Who robs cavefish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night? We do, we do, we do!'

Re:But, Corporations are People!

[ultranova]

Corporations cant force anything.

Of course they can, and do. Where the government is strong, the corporations wield power through it. Where it is weak, they hire their own private armies a la Pinkerton, because who'll stop them?

Re:But, Corporations are People!

[stenvar]

You're absolutely right that neither corporations nor government have ethics. The difference is: with corporations, that's what's expected and it shouldn't matter because in a free market, you don't have to buy their crap. When the federal government is unethical, you have no way of escaping from that. And when they mandate monopolies (e.g., media) or purchases (e.g., health care), you can't use the market anymore to stay away from corporations whose products you don't want.

Re:But, Corporations are People!

[nobodyknowsimageek]

If you think that you can evade the bad behavior of Corporations simply by "not buying from them" then you are incredibly naive.

lawsuit by proxy?

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Can't they just give someone else the authority to sue on their behalf? There must be a loophole somewhere in the Bible...

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[MozeeToby]

You're used to the kind of Easter/Christmas (or at most Sunday) Christians that you meet every day on the street. The Amish aren't like that. They live every day of their lives neck deep in their interpretation of the bible. They pray a dozen times a day, not because it's mandated, but just because that's what they do. They do not go out looking for loopholes to that interpretation, even something as simple as allowing bright colors on their children's clothes takes endless meetings and councils.

You have to say this, at least they are consistent in their belief system, unlike most self proclaimed religious people. And generally speaking they are happy with their lot and comfortable in their lives, but sometimes it leaves them wide open for exploitation.

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Somewhat. There are Amish who will 'not use electricity', but will use a diesel generator at the barn to run the dairy equipment.

Is that a loophole or a nuanced interpretation?

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[h4rr4r]

That is just you not understanding.
They have no problem with electricity, the problem is being tied to the grid. Some take this so far as to only use air powered equipment. To remove any temptation for grid tie.

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[h4rr4r]

Oh get over it. The entire Bible is a mass of conflicting rules and loopholes. People spout leviticus at gays while having tattoos and wearing mixed fabrics.

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a wonderful piece done by NPR which explains this. A summary paraphrase is something like this. They only do something if it brings them closer to their god. Anything that could be a distraction from that is removed from their lives. So using a diesel generator that gives them more time and money to spend in their community and with God is a good thing for them, television that takes time from their family and their focus on god is a bad thing. I may not believe as they do, but exploitation of any people gets me kind of riled. As an atheist, no one deserves to be abused just for how they choose to live or believe, especially if it does not infringe upon others. The law needs to come down supremely hard on these people abusing the Amish.

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

And generally speaking they are happy with their lot and comfortable in their lives

I can't help it, being a sceptic, but I wonder - how common is it for people living in strong, patriarchal, authoritarian societies to claim that they are happy when they actually aren't, relative to other societies?

Re:lawsuit by proxy?

[MozeeToby]

They, or their ancestors, chose a different value system from you, nothing more or less, and I personally can understand their decision (even if it's not the one I would take). Ignore the fact that it's rooted in religion and look at the actual motivation for the things Amish do. Their proscriptions aren't based on scripture, at least not directly, they are based on keeping the family as strong as possible, keeping friends and relatives close, not relying on others, not being lazy or vain.

Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

There are actually several different "sects" of Amish, all with differing interpretations. Saying that they don't make use of the courts is incorrect. Some don't, but for most the prohibition is in filing lawsuits for personal gain.

In any event, it's really not something anybody should be concerned with. The Amish have the right to take advantage of the courts, and the right to choose not to use them. If their belief system says don't use the courts, well that's too bad but it's a burden they've placed on themselves.

Re:Wrong

[tnk1]

Right. If the fracking did something like destroy their land so it couldn't be used for farming, they would likely be able to sue to get justice.

What they probably won't do is sue if the energy companies don't give them all the money they agreed to, but at the same time, it doesn't prevent the Amish from living their lives.

Although the Amish are not idiots, they have decided to live their lives without many modern conveniences. Presumably, they aren't going to be necessarily interested in extracting as much money as they can as there is no benefit to them in a lot of money except keeping score. Since mineral and resource rights are money that they would make without working for it themselves, it's a windfall that they may well not need or even want.

That's not to say that they will or want to give this stuff away, but at the same time, if the energy companies are not actively hurting them, lawsuits are just a contentious issue that they don't need. Of course, nothing prevents them from pointing out that the energy companies are cheating them to interested parties and having those people publicize it (as seems to have happened here). This may give outsiders the idea that the Amish are being cheated and taken advantage of, but I just see it as them placing their priorities in a place where most people would not in modern society.

Re:PROXY?

[thoriumbr]

The Amish are not thinking on the billions, they are thinking on their land. They rarely rely on money anyway, so the billions would not be that compelling to them. But frackle their soil and wreck their land, and they will be deeply concerned.

electic amish

[Anonymous Coward]

Ohhh, you gonna paint that barn tonight
Ohhh, down beside da lantern light
Ohhh, you gonna finish all your chores
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round

Yah

I was just an Amish boy
Full of purity und joy
Knew damn well that I was holier than thee
Left alone with Cousin Greta
What a naughty baby sitta
Heathen woman, you made a Mennonite out of me

Yah Yah

I know girls who never curse
Chicks who know their bible verse
Every one of them wore a dress down to da floor
Though their chastity and charm
Made them quite pleasant on da farm
There ain't nothing like a good old Amish whore

Ohhh, you gonna paint that barn tonight
Ohhh, down beside da lantern light
Ohhh, you gonna finish all your chores
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Yah
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round

Hey Carl
Yah Graeber
What's the difference between Greta and my buggy.
I don't know Graber what is the difference
Well, not everybody has been in my buggy.
Ha ha ha ha

Yah listen now
I've been on my knees all day
All I do is sit and pray
Thought I saw the Lord but I can't really tell
But I knew from da beginning
With this lust and all this sinning
Black bonnet girls and me will surely burn in hell

Yah dig this
Ohhh, you gonna paint that barn tonight
Ohhh, down beside da lantern light
Ohhh, you gonna finish all your chores
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Yah
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round

Get on your buggies and ride
Black bonnet girls
Man that Greta's built like a brick outhouse
Black bonnet girls
As long as I've got a pew, she's got a place to sit
Black bonnet girls
Yah, she could churn my butter anytime
Black bonnet girls
Hey Greta, show us your ankles
Ooooh

Re:PROXY?

[CanHasDIY]

Is that billions with a "B?"

Umm, ok for 10% I'll be whatever kind of liaison they need. Who do I have to call?

Your last sentence indicates that you lack the knowledge to properly represent the Amish.

Re:Their own fault

[MickyTheIdiot]

In the U.S. corporations are our religion. The "Christianity" thing is a smokescreen. If it makes money and screws the other guy then in corporate-centric America it is right.

I'm ready for the -1 mod on this... but I will keep saying it. We've got major problems with our ethics in the U.S. and corporatism is being the true religion. The Joel Olsteen "God wants you to be successful" crap is by no means Christianity.

I think he's dealt with other orthodox types

[Sycraft-fu]

It isn't so much the Easter/Christmas Christians. I mean when you have someone that only has a passing involvement in their religion, it is not at all surprising when they ignore some (or many) of the rules. However you see it in the really orthodox as well. They find what they believe to be loopholes and use them.

Orthodox Jews are some of the best examples:

So Exodus 35:3 says "Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." This relates to Exodus 16:23 which says "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" Basically the idea is, as far as biblical scholars can tell, that making a fire was a lot of work (try making a fire rubbing sticks together, it sucks) and the Sabbath is a day of rest. So none of that, you make your food on Friday, rest on Saturday. Remember that we are talking the ME/Mediterranean here, so you didn't really need fire for warmth.

However, for whatever reason, the Talmudic interpretation has decided that electricity is fire. I'm not sure why, but that is what the orthodox churches teach. So, you aren't allowed to operate electric devices on Saturday (the Jewish Sabbath), in particular your oven. Well that's pretty damn inconvenient in the modern world... So they find all kinds of "loopholes". You can get ovens that have timers longer than 24 hours. You set them up the day before, and they'll heat up (and down) at the prescribed times. Also while an Orthodox Jew can't go and push the buttons to operate an elevator in their building, it is 100% fine to have a Gentile who does it for you. Or, since elevator operators are a rather unnecessary expense these days, elevators can be (and are) set in to 'Sabbath Mode' where they automatically stop at every floor and open up, and just keep cycling. Takes longer, you have to get on and wait, but you can use it without 'operating' it.

This is real, and it is big. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews that seem to think it is important to obey that part of the bible, but that they can find ticky loopholes and gotchas to get around it and god will be ok with that. I don't claim to understand it, however it is what it is.

On the flip side you'll see some weird stuff like stores that won't let you order on the Sabbath. B&H Photo Video, one of the best camera stores in the US, is like that. They have a big, well designed, online ordering system. However it won't let you order on the Sabbath. You can browse, but if you try to place an order, it won't allow it, you have to wait, it won't queue it into the system. The servers don't get the day off, but they aren't allowed to take orders :).

So you can see how, given things like this, people might assume the Amish would be similar. It is not from dealing with people who are casually religious that you get the idea, but from dealing with those that are deeply religious and seem to care about certain rules, but are 100% fine with going around those rules in tricky ways.

Now lest someone think I'm picking on the Jews here, I just chose the example because it is one you see a fair bit in America. You should see some of the things various orthodox Muslims do that are against the Koran, but they've found a loophole that makes it "ok" in this particular case.

True Amish Lifestyle

[Chordonblue]

It's funny when people talk about the Amish as if their assured piety somehow comes from genetics or something. The truth is, the Amish have ALWAYS sought for 'loopholes' in their situation - what the Bishops allow for is a different tale altogether.

I could give you LOTS of examples, but here's a oldie AND a goodie. Back in the early 90's, I worked for a Commodore dealer in Lancaster County, PA (BIG Amish and Mennonite community). C= had kind of a non-sequitur deal: Buy an Amiga 500 bundled with a 1080 monitor, get a 'free' VCR - which was kinda silly. The A500 had no color composite out, so actually hooking it up to a VCR required this phallic-looking 6 inch long module (the A520), which of course, was not included.

And yet...

The Old Order Mennonites and even a few of the younger Amish were buying into this deal - big time. We sold more A500s than ever during this time - and the vast majority were going to that community. While the A500 didn't have a true color composite out (C= = STUPID!), the VCR did, and it just so happened that the monitor that came with the bundle did as well. I found out what was going on when I suggested to a conservative-looking young couple that, with an antenna connected to the VCR's tuner, you could actually watch TV on the monitor.

I was taken aback by their shocked and seemingly terrified response, "Oh no! Don't SAY THAT! We don't want to watch TV on it!" What they DID want to watch was VHS video though. Because the Bishops were not up on the latest technology, they could claim that the computer system was the primary purpose of the deal - the VCR would not be mentioned, and they could watch all the tapes they wanted in the secluded privacy of their bedrooms.

Today, if you see an Amish or Mennonite woman on the stoop of their house, cradling something close to their ear, you can bet it's a cell phone. There are cell vendors who specifically cater to the Amish's 'cash only' lifestyle.

Folks, the Amish are as human as any of us. There are pious ones, but many are essentially trapped in a lifestyle out of necessity. Imagine this: With only an 8th grade education, and all of your friends and family belonging to the community, you'd probably stay because you'd fear the total abandonment of the only life you've ever known. But that doesn't mean they don't get rebellious or 'get up to dickens'... ;)