Slashdot Mirror


Facebook's Complaint Process Is Arbitrary — But So Is Campaigning

Bennett Haselton writes "After initial abuse reports failed to shut down some anti-women and pro-rape pages on Facebook, a wider lobbying campaign succeeded in prompting a Facebook policy change. This has been alternately hailed as a vindication of the campaigner's cause, or derided as proof that Facebook can be cowed by humorless feminists. In reality, the success of the campaign was most likely the outcome of a mostly arbitrary and random process that required a lot of luck, just as the initial abuse reports didn't succeed because they didn't have the necessary luck on their side. Neither result should be taken to reflect on the merits of the campaigner's actual points." Read on for the rest of Bennett's thoughts. On May 28th, Facebook released a statement acknowledging that it had not responded effectively to complaints against pages containing "gender-based hate speech" (e.g. "Slapping hookers in the face with a shoe." and several much worse examples glorifying rape or violence). The decision came at the end of the "#fbrape" campaign by feminist groups to pressure advertisers whose ads had been appearing on the most offensive pages; major advertisers like Nissan announced that they were withdrawing advertisements from Facebook until they could be assured their ads would not appear on the pages in question (most of which were ultimately shut down by Facebook).

I've written before about the arbitrariness of Facebook's abuse-report process, and in particular how it can be abused by convening a "flash mob" of users to file abuse reports about pieces of content that they want removed, even when that content doesn't violate Facebook's terms. The solution I proposed, briefly, was for Facebook to sign up, say, 100,000 volunteers (or even paid users) to review "abuse reports." and when an abuse report is received, have the report evaluated by a random subset of 100 of those volunteers, to vote on whether the report is legitimate. The decision whether to remove the content can be based on what percent of those 100 users vote that it violates the terms of service. The nice property of this system is that it can't be manipulated by conscripting a "flash mob" of users to file complaints all at once — no matter how many mobsters you have filing abuse reports, if your complaints don't have merit, they won't pass the random-sample review (unless you manage to control a significant proportion of the 100,000 users that the 100 users are randomly selected from, but that would be a very tall order).

This also means that no abuse complaint would be ignored because too few people submitted it — any abusive content that was reported, would trigger the 100-user review. (Or if you thought cranks would waste too much of the reviewers' time by filing phone abuse reports, you could only trigger the 100-user review after, say, 3 people had complained about a given page. Or you could start ignoring complaints from users after they had filed a certain number of complaints that were all rejected by the 100-user review process.) Readers suggested various improvements to the algorithm and pointed out potential problems, but I think the basic idea is still sound.

Some of the abusive pages cited by the #fbrape campaigners, are truly graphic and offensive, certainly in violation of Facebook's "community standards" against "hate speech." If they had been reviewed by a 100-user random sample, they probably would have been removed. As it is, the complaints probably landed in the lap of some $1-an-hour grunt worker who ignored them (Facebook's opacity in regards to its review process gives us little more information than that). If the complainers had been luckier, perhaps the abuse reports might have gotten noticed by someone more proactive.

So even if the #fbrape campaigners didn't put it in these terms, their gripe was essentially that the Facebook complaint review process leads to arbitrary outcomes, and the complaints didn't gain traction because luck wasn't on their side.

But what about the #fbrape campaign itself, to bring the pages to Facebook's attention through media action, after the initial abuse reports were ignored?

This is probably an example of what could be called the "Salganik Effect." Matthew Salganik is a Princeton University professor who in 2006 conducted a study examining how certain songs became popular in simulated worlds in which users could rate songs and recommend them to their friends. In his simulation, he divided users into eight artificial "worlds" in which the users in a given world could only see the ratings and recommendations from other users within that world. Then each world was seeded with the same set of songs to see which songs grew in popularity. His team found that the set of songs which became "successful." varied wildly between worlds — such that within any given world, although the very worst songs never came popular, the set of songs that did become popular were essentially a random selection from among those that were merely "good enough."

Online movements gain traction through such a similar process — users 'liking' a page or recommending it to friends, recommendations radiating out from the popular elite according to Malcolm Gladwell's "Law of the Few -- that this suggests the success of a campaign like #fbrape could have been the result of an arbitrary process dominated by luck, just like the success of a song in one of Salganik's artificial worlds. We can never know for sure, since we can't divide real-life Facebook users into multiple artificial worlds, or re-run history to see how often the outcome would be different. But you should read Everything Is Obvious* (Once You Know The Answer), a book written by Duncan J. Watts, one of the co-authors of Salganik's study. The book argues that many of the outcomes that seem like foregone conclusions in hindsight, such as the success of a product, twitter meme, company, idea, or person, are really the result of an arbitrary process that is impossible to predict, much less control. If you liked Freakonomics or Thinking, Fast And Slow, you should add Everything Is Obvious to your reading list right away.

In the case of the #fbrape campaign, the strong form of the conclusion would be to say that the success of the campaign is probably the outcome of a random process. But everyone should at least agree with the weak form of the conclusion, which is that the success and failures of online campaigns could be a random process — and that it's a mistake to say that the success of a campaign definitely is determined by the merits of the campaign's ideas or by the efforts of the campaign organizers. If we can't prove how much luck has to do with it, we have to acknowledge that it could be quite a lot.

That doesn't mean the #fbrape campaign didn't have merit. Like the songs in Salganik's artificial worlds that were "good enough" to succeed if given the chance, the #fbrape campaign organizers did have a point. But we shouldn't take the phenomenal success of the campaign to mean that they had that much more of a valid point than many other campaigns which fizzled out due to bad luck. (Thus I think that articles like this one by Sandy Garossino, even if they're right about the problem of pro-rape content, are missing the point insofar as they imply that the movement's success was due to the hard work of the "smartest feminists on the planet." It's a bit early to declare that "On May 27th, women won the Internet.")

The initial complaints failed because of an arbitrary process, and then the #fbrape campaign succeeded because of an equally arbitrary process. The next such awareness campaign, even if it has merit, might not have luck on its side.

The arbitrariness in both of these processes can be fixed. For the first process — abuse reports submitted to Facebook — the fix is easy: have each complaint reviewed by a random subset of volunteers or employees who are signed up to review such content, as described above. This makes the outcome dependent on the attributes of the content itself (as it should be), rather than luck and/or the size of the mob that wants something removed.

The arbitrariness in the second process — the process by which memes "catch fire" and spill over into mainstream media and broader awareness — is a taller order, but I think it can be fixed by essentially the same algorithm. What would be required would be for a site that has the power to make new memes through its sheer dominance, like Google+ or Reddit, to implement the random-sample-voting algorithm for memes and calls-to-action. Any user can submit an argument — very broadly, any type of exhortation that "we" should do "something" -- and these arguments could be reviewed by a random sample of, say, 20 other users on the site. Those arguments that have the highest percentage of "Yes" votes would get promoted on the front page. (This is the algorithm I was pushing in a previous article, Censorship By Glut.)

The system sounds deceptively simple, but note what's missing: You can't manipulate the voting by rallying your friends to vote for your idea (or by creating multiple "sockpuppet" accounts to vote up your own post). You don't even have the accidental Salganik effects, where friend-to-friend recommendations result in a chaotic feedback loop where certain ideas race ahead of others due to random factors that have nothing to do with the idea's merits. You've taken the arbitrariness out of the process, so that the fate of the idea is a function only of the attributes of the idea itself, which determines the percentage of randomly sampled users who vote it up. (This is not quite the same as rewarding the ideas with the most "merit" — rather, it's the ideas that the population being sampled perceive to have the most merit — but at least the outcome is not random, and the system cannot be gamed.)

Meanwhile, I hope that Facebook won't err too far on the side of abolishing sexist humor where the humor is in proportion to the offensiveness. In Women, Action & the Media's list of examples of "gender-based hate speech." they included a Facebook page titled "Hope you have pet insurance because I'm about to destroy your pussy." which I would optimistically like to think refers to enthusiastic sex and not rape. (The humor really derives from the fact that the words appear next to a physically unattractive man, which is one group that feminists never seem to get riled up about defending.) And what about jokes about anti-male violence, which were left out of WAM's examples? A friend of mine likes posting things on his Facebook like "I was trying to remember the name of Rihanna's ex, and then it hit me," which I thought was funny, but which some WAM supporters probably would have reported as "abusive content." I wonder how many of those same people would have filed a report if he'd said, "I was about to say the name of Lorena Bobbitt's ex, but I got cut off."

114 comments

  1. How about a friggin' HATE button? by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So tired of this glass three-quarters full smiley touchy feely people are nice crap. Why anyone would produce a social network with the scale of human emotion reduced to 'positive' dandelion buttery-chinned goodness... I cannot imagine.

    Bring on an equal measure of opposition and disagreement. Not just an absence of 'like'.

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
    1. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Yeah, until some kid gets 100 friends to HATE on some particular unfortunate other kid, and that kid commits suicide or crimes.

    2. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Informative

      How about not using friggin' Facebook at all?

    3. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

      How about not using friggin' Facebook at all?

      I wouldn't if I just had some friggin' friends on Slashdot.

      (Checking again) Nope.

      --
      <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
    4. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I wish parents would start taking responsibility for their horrible kids. "Cyberbullying" sounds like a blame shifting label for "shitty parents".

    5. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Friends are just people who haven't stabbed you in the back yet.

    6. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of things that you disagree that you just don't see (fortunately, in some cases). And there are a lot of people that believe in things that are just not real, or "wrong" by any scientific measure. So or you rig the representation not getting close,or getting a lot of the "wrong" people close you rig everything. The only way to win is not play the game. Just don't login.

    7. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by sjames · · Score: 1

      A hate crime perhaps?

    8. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are friends???

    9. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that is a truly positive look on society. Machiavelli approves!

    10. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only others have tought about this, they sure would've coded sites that do just that.

    11. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      How about having friends in real life? Then you don't need facebook or anything similar at all.

      My account consists of nothing but an image that says my email address and says if you want to talk with me, you should know how to reach me and if you don't know how to reach me, use my email address -- but either way, never expect a response on FB, because I don't use it.

      People like to throw the excuse around that they just use facebook because "it's where all my friends are" or "to keep in touch with family", but I call bullshit on that. You can use email to keep in touch with friends and family. Or even better, visit them or make a fucking phone call. The best part is, then you can just deal with the important stuff and not spend every second of every day listening to the most mundane and trivial bullshit of every person's life.

    12. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by fibonacci8 · · Score: 1

      After seeing that "like" crimes happen in the absence of a "hate" option, I'm left unconvinced.

      --
      Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
    13. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Kielistic · · Score: 2, Informative

      And if you're weak enough to fall prey to taking your own life over a goddamn electronic vote, then maybe you shouldn't be playing in the deep end of social networking without your fucking swimmies on.

      Children think that the school yard is their entire life (because at that point of their life it is their entire life). When they feel that everyone in their school hates them they get the very real feeling that their life is pointless. You are blaming infants that haven't had enough life to gain experience for being inexperienced.

      Seems we have no problem handing our teenagers an unlimited portal to online hardcore porn via smartphones and not worry about that twisting their minds

      I really have no idea how you have missed all the "porn on the internet is hurting our children" diatribe. All in all you're a pretty ignorant AC.

    14. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot, if not most kids that are bullies, learn this behavior by being bullied / abused at home.

    15. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The longer you treat an infant as an infant, the longer it stays an infant. If schools were magical places that automatically wiped kids' minds of any memories related to bullying at the end of each school day, we'd all be deeply concerned over the suicide rates of mid-20s to late 30s instead.

    16. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by centipedes.in.my.vag · · Score: 1

      The use of a computer didn't remove it from reality. The internet is part of 'real life.' You mean face-to-face / away from the keyboard.

      --
      Only on /. can I lose karma with 2x "5, Funny" posts.
    17. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When answer my grandma's phone calls with, "Hide this; only show important updates from grandma" she gets grumpy.

      Really though, I wish more people would take your advice. I hate to log into facebook to see messages like: "Why didn't you respond to my party invitation?" "Why are you ignoring my PMs?" to which I have to reply: "Why don't you just friggin call me?"

    18. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      "Why are you ignoring my PMs?"
      You just made my day. I have no idea what a PM is in relation to facebook, and that makes me happy.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    19. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      As you experience certain sensory input patterns, your mental pathways become accustomed to them. The input is eventually anticipated, and even missed when absent.

    20. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      I also had no idea that registering on Facebook gave you access to prime ministers.

    21. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by psithurism · · Score: 2

      You can just ignore it, hide the person entirely, or comment on why you are unable to ignore their post and let them know you hate it.

      "Like" is just shorthand for: "I read this and it pleased me." On message boards that this option is unavailable, you get 30 "I liked this!" "Great Post!" etc before you get to actual comments and I really wish every board would implement "Like" already.

      On the other hand, hate could mean "I hate everything you post" "I hate that you didn't invite me" "I have a counterargument to this post" which you should really just type out instead of leaving them wondering why you clicked the Hate button.

      P.S. I hate your post.

    22. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Applekid · · Score: 1

      And if you're weak enough to fall prey to taking your own life over a goddamn electronic vote, then maybe you shouldn't be playing in the deep end of social networking without your fucking swimmies on.

      Children think that the school yard is their entire life (because at that point of their life it is their entire life). When they feel that everyone in their school hates them they get the very real feeling that their life is pointless. You are blaming infants that haven't had enough life to gain experience for being inexperienced.

      Bullying is not new. It's cruel, yes, and feelings get hurt, but it's been around for as long as there has been a pecking order. Animals even exhibit bullying behavior. The alpha male in a pack will pick on others, steal their food, have sex with many females, etc. This is a natural state. But from this natural state, intelligence can emerge.

      Take Capuchin monkeys. They forage in groups and they're always on the lookout for predators. If one finds food, the bullies will beat him up and try to take the food from the weaker. So what is a hungry monkey to do? Lie. After spotting some food, weak monkeys will cry out indicating a predator is around and all the other monkeys will take cover, while he can eat the food himself. Of course, if he's spotted, he winds up getting beat up WORSE by the bullies and some peers, because he has stolen from the group and, hell, why not, everyone's ganging up.

      Perhaps bullying emerged out of this, and there's no doubt it's part of the individual maturing and joining society because it's been around forever. It's a very natural thing and it's pretty reasonable to expect it to occur and play out. Like watching a lion rip a zebra to shreds, it's presumptuous to think you know better than what is natural. Without bullying, who knows what kinds of problems we're breeding into the future. What kinds of mental illnesses or inabilities to cope we are introducing into our society 20 years down the road? Teen suicide isn't new either. Those who commit suicide, even if they were stopped from doing so, probably wouldn't have been very effective adults if we were to consider them logically instead of emotionally.

      The one thing that IS different now is that kids no longer have a sanctuary from the judgment of their peers. That's not the problem of being judged poorly, that's the problem of (surprise!) parenting. Giving kids cell phones to get ugly words and disgusting pictures sent to them 24/7 is a mistake. Unsupervised access to social media is a mistake. If there is one thing that needs a tighter grip these days are sites like Facebook. I'd really like to see it treated the same way we treat gambling. It's just not appropriate for children to be gambling, and it's not appropriate for children to be so social.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    23. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by BlackSupra · · Score: 1

      Facebook defines Negative Feedback as:

      • Hide: hide this story
      • Hide All: hide all stories from a Page
        Report Spam
        Unlike Page

    24. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      IRL is a commonly used expression. Get over yourself.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    25. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by TheRealDevTrash · · Score: 1

      When I was in school and there were bullying incindents, it was 100% always blame the victim. Or my kid's not like that around me, so the victim must be lying.

      --
      I used to be /dev/trash but Slashdot no longer allows slashes for usernames.
    26. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Unlike Page

      Who is Page, and what's she usually like, then?

      (Unlike is not a verb - yet.)

    27. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PM = "private message". It's the generic term used for e-mail systems within other systems (i.e. forums, etc.), and it's not what Facebook calls them. Facebook calls them "Facebook messages".

    28. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      (Unlike is not a verb - yet.)

      In English, you can verb anything.

    29. Re:How about a friggin' HATE button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kinda harder to claim that when it's all archived forever and ever on Zuckerberg's servers, tho.

  2. Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People are still on Facebook? Even as Zuck the Fuck is trying to change laws to give Americans' jobs to foreigners? Even as Facebook is giving everything away to the NSA and selling everything else to whomever wants it? Even though social networks are now widely considered a vanity thing unacceptable even for teenyboppers?

    HAW!
     
      -- Ethanol-fueled

    1. Re:Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing better than using Google Chrome on Microsoft Windows to access Facebook. Anything less is anti-American!

  3. Umm sexist much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I know this site is mostly read by guys, so I guess we should expect sexist comments abou humourless feminists.

    1. Re:Umm sexist much by similar_name · · Score: 0

      I know this site is mostly read by guys, so I guess we should expect

      And that's not sexist how?

    2. Re:Umm sexist much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's factually correct?

    3. Re:Umm sexist much by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      I think he means the "so we should expect" part is sexist because it makes an assumption about what males will do simply because they're male. I don't think he has a problem with the "Slashdot is mostly read by males" part.

    4. Re:Umm sexist much by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      Oh the irony.

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    5. Re:Umm sexist much by similar_name · · Score: 1

      You are correct. It would appear the AC only thinks sexism occurs with regards to women. As for the moderators, I would have been fine with a -1 off-topic, but -1 overrated is just someone who uses mod points to disagree.

    6. Re:Umm sexist much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not /. making the comment. Are you stupid? You must be a woman ;)

    7. Re:Umm sexist much by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      You are correct. It would appear the AC only thinks sexism occurs with regards to women. As for the moderators, I would have been fine with a -1 off-topic, but -1 overrated is just someone who uses mod points to disagree.

      Ah, the hypocrisy of society. Women are allowed to make sexist comments with impunity. Just like how minorities are allowed to form racially specific groups without retribution. Could you imagine the uproar if we were to make a white's only awards show? Or a magazine called "Ivory"?

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    8. Re:Umm sexist much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's factually correct?

      There is no reason a statement can't be both sexist and factually correct. The grandparent is a good example. It implies that people on slashdot are men, and men on slashdot are more likely to make sexist comments than other forums.

    9. Re:Umm sexist much by yndrd1984 · · Score: 1

      Women are allowed to make sexist comments with impunity. Just like how minorities are allowed to form racially specific groups without retribution.

      Are you trying to make some sort of equivalence between how Western society treats or treated women and how it treats or treated, for example, ethnically African people? Sorry, but it looks that way, even though you'd have to be embarrassingly ignorant to make that argument.

      Could you imagine the uproar if we were to make a white's only awards show? Or a magazine called "Ivory"?

      I would be overwhelming, and rightly so - there's almost no measure of societal health that you can make that shows any other racial group doing better than whites, nor are whites in general held back by prejudice.

      On the other hand if (for example) blacks, compared to whites:

      lived longer and had more government support for their health care
      were on average significantly wealthier and had more disposable income
      were almost twice as likely to go to college, and were more likely to be in med- or law-school
      got reduced sentences for all crimes across the board
      were given preferential treatment in almost any dangerous situation - from evacuations to the draft
      had lower rates of suicide, homelessness and untreated mental illness
      and did better in a host of other well-being statistics...

      And in addition, whites were regularly assumed to be violent, domineering, self-absorbed, manipulative, irresponsible, foolish pedophiles... Then I might think that "Ebony" and "Ivory" should be treated equally.

    10. Re:Umm sexist much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The parent is satire, and it's really hard to see how so many other commentors completely missed the point.

    11. Re:Umm sexist much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Racist.

  4. subjectivity by micahraleigh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What is so wrong about letting people make their own choices? Why are people trying to demonize decisions as "arbitrary" and "random"?

    I trust human discretion a thousand times over policy. Policy is just a coat of varnish people put over to make things look better. Are we to be slaves to appearances all the time?

    I'm going back to reading my Kierkegaard now ...

    1. Re:subjectivity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not calling the choices random. He's saying that their degrees of influence are. A hundred people may all make sound, rational choices (say, to recommend a product), but when word of mouth, personal influence, etc. are taken into account it appears completely random which of those choices will count most to observers (say, which product you buy after reading those hundred reviews).

    2. Re:subjectivity by micahraleigh · · Score: 0

      Ah, I stand corrected. I guess the slant of the posts here (i.e. memes) are not as predictable as I thought.

      Apologies ...

  5. Strange term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    People who are against "pro-rape" pages are now considered "humourless feminists"? That strikes me as a poor choice of words. I would like to think all sane people would be put off by "pro-rape" propaganda.

    1. Re:Strange term by Bobakitoo · · Score: 1

      People who are against "pro-rape" pages are now considered "humourless feminists"? That strikes me as a poor choice of words. I would like to think all sane people would be put off by "pro-rape" propaganda.

      Pro-rape is acceptable and often funny when men are the victims. The "humourless feminist" is obviously a reference to the fact that some of these feminists will often rejoice and laugh at the idea of prison rape and male mutilation but become humourless when it's the other way around. The 'pro-rape' jokes are to highlight their hypocrisy on that matter. (eg: It is a troll in the traditional sense, and IMHO the only valid sense of the word)

    2. Re:Strange term by Vanderhoth · · Score: 1

      From what I've heard Facebook also allows some feminist groups to post comments calling for the castration of men on their site, so I'd say they were just being equal opportunity by allowing comments from the other side. My opinion is if you don't like it don't read it, but it seems censorship and making sure no one can read it is a much better choice.

    3. Re:Strange term by Seumas · · Score: 2

      I don't even buy that these "pages" are real. There have been plenty of recent examples where someone staged hateful and sickening violent threatening (in at least one case, misogynist) comments on someone's page on facebook. Turns out, it was the "victim" herself leaving these messages from other accounts, to generate attention, sympathy, and publicity.

      So . . . excuse me if I don't immediately buy into the bullshit, here.

      Also, people shouldn't rely on some uber corp as their source of publishing and reading free-thought of any kind. If you want to say hideous shit or controversial shit and not be pressured by anyone or have something removed, put up a website.

    4. Re:Strange term by geminidomino · · Score: 2

      "Pro-rape" comments apparently include this and this[PDF warning].

      If you think either of those endorses rape, you might be a redneck^Wfeminist.

      Modbomb incoming. Come at me, bro.

    5. Re:Strange term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a bit at a loss as to what the first one is responding to, but the second is blatant rape denialism: it claims the number of committed rapes is lower than claimed by citing the number of reported rapes when the discrepancy between the two numbers is a large part of what the whole rape culture awareness thing is about.

      I'll accept that not everyone claiming the banner of feminism is perfect, if you think supporting equal rights for women is something to make fun of someone for, you might want to reflect a bit about your life.

    6. Re:Strange term by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      how about rabid man-hating femi-nazis who demean men and want superiority, do they need to reflect about their lives too?

    7. Re:Strange term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm skeptical of anyone claiming both the banner of feminism and the banner of equal rights.

    8. Re:Strange term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm skeptical of anyone claiming both the banner of feminism and the banner of equal rights.

      Why exactly? Of course, people advocate different things under banner of feminism, but do you claim that you can't be pro-feminism and pro- equal rights?

    9. Re:Strange term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why exactly? Of course, people advocate different things under banner of feminism, but do you claim that you can't be pro-feminism and pro- equal rights?

      Hey, note how I invented using prefix before two-word phrase! (Yes, I'm already informed how to use it properly, and hyphens, and dashes.)

    10. Re:Strange term by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      No, the second is "rape culture" bullshit denial. BIG difference. The fact that you just used the phrase unironically suggests that trying to explain why, though, would be a waste of time.

  6. women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    help out abused women and children by visiting everysecondmatters.ca WOO!!!

  7. Oh no, we must censor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Honestly, when it comes to face book, is there really a need to take things down? Sure, if someone posts illegal bits (child porn), the legally have to get rid of it, but just wacky opinions and offensive stuff? Here in the US (where FaceBook is incorporated), we let people be Nazi and we don't make the Westboro Baptist Church shut up. The Ku Klux Klan gets legal protection for their speech here. This freedom to state your opinions (and make offensive jokes) is the main freedom we have left in this country. Its also the freedom to make yourself look like an insensitive idiot.

    I find it sad that people want to take down crap on FaceBook, and also sad that FaceBook complies. FaceBook is under no obligation to take this stuff done, nor are they under any obligation to keep it up. Its purely a decision on their part: they simple think having some censorship is more profitable, so they do so. They may even be right about that, but that is kinda sad.

    1. Re:Oh no, we must censor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Facebook is a private business, and the First Amendment doesn't apply. While censorship may be unwelcome, when signing up, I'm sure there is a codicil in the TOS that says they, Facebook, can delete anything they want.

      The First Amendment insures that the citizens and the press can speak out about the current government and not worry about being jailed because their opinions conflict with the government's policy.

    2. Re:Oh no, we must censor! by ojno · · Score: 1

      The point wasn't that they were censoring stuff; the point was that they were censoring some things but not others, in an asinine way. For example, they were censoring photos of breastfeeding children if one pixel of nipple was shown, but not photos of beaten-up women with captions like "Haha she deserved it."

    3. Re:Oh no, we must censor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point wasn't that they were censoring stuff; the point was that they were censoring some things but not others, in an asinine way.

      For example, they were censoring photos of breastfeeding children if one pixel of nipple was shown, but not photos of beaten-up women with captions like "Haha she deserved it."

      Yes, the censoring is biased, subjective and not ideal. Isn't that the whole point of censorship, as well as the whole opposition to it? No matter what they censor, someone will make your exact claim: they censor things I think are ok, but not other things bad I think are bad.

      My point was that we (as a country) make a point of preventing censoring things, even if they really are quite horrible. This is important. Its the only way to not subjectively suppress people (some people are assholes, but they still have rights).

      I'd don't see how you can possibly classify a horribly biased process process of removing content as not a censorship issue. Thats is exactly the standard problem with censorship. Facebook censors random crap, China censors random crap.

      Now, if only everyone thought your way, we should censor anything a majority of the people disliked (Or is it just stuff you dislike?). This is a very bad approach to take here.

      I'd much rather have stuff around that I disprove of and think should be removed than have a system for removing said things. However, this is a publicly owned company: they have to do what ever makes the most money, which can, and often does, include generally evil anti-freedom type stuff. Thats absolutely fine, but its not what I would prefer.

      Now, as to what FaceBook should do to maximize its profits, your point is about right I suspect. In my parent post though, I was't referring to what they should do business wise, I was referring to how what they are doing is kinda shitty as far as free speech goes. Its well withing their rights to be kinda shitty free speech wise (they aren't the government), but I'll criticize them for it and avoid using their services.

      This happens to be the main reason I dislike using services like FaceBook: they don't support my values of free speech and won't (for financial reason) as long as most of their users (like you!) prefer censorship.

    4. Re:Oh no, we must censor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, they are allowed to be horrible in this respect. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't censor stuff, I'm simply saying I value their service less as a user because they do this.

  8. The internet survives on hype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think the 100k reviewers would work out in practice as smoothly as Haselton does, simply because definitions of 'abuse' vary so widely that even a set of 100 reviewers might be dominated by chance of juror selection, but his wider point about luck and hype is completely spot on. Trying to follow the shifting tides of *-o-spheres on the internet is a study in transience and whims. One could probably build a powerful random number generation system by examining popular keywords and phrases of highly populated sites.

    Of course, everyone probably knows this, and the hype about a 'successful movement' is probably itself another spin on the news story roulette wheel. Eh, it could be worse. It could be another terrible youtube song.

  9. Luck by Antipater · · Score: 1

    Yes, random chance is a factor in which grassroots campaigns take hold. Luck is a factor in everything. Luck is a factor in Mr. Haselton's proposed solution as well (basically extending the "internet jury duty" idea he's pushed in many other posts) - if this campaign had been reviewed by 20 random internet-users who just so happen to be militant anti-feminists, then it would've been killed on the spot.

    The luck factor of a success can be minimized by actually being better than the alternatives. In the Salganik study, though the popular songs were chosen randomly, they were chosen randomly from the better subset of songs. No "world" chose a crappy song to be popular. And that study was on a very subjective medium - how good or bad a song was. In something that is generally more agreed-upon, such as "rape is bad", the luck factor is understandably much diminished.

    So just because a success has a luck factor involved, that's not a reason to cast doubt on the veracity of the success. If you run a simulated NFL season a million times, certainly the same team will not win the Super Bowl all million times. When an actual team then does win the Super Bowl, does that take away from their victory, that part of it came from luck? No.

    --
    Everything is better with chainsaws.
    1. Re:Luck by bennetthaselton · · Score: 1

      There will always be *some* luck, but the point is that if only a minority of people in your user base are militant anti-feminists, you'd have to be extremely unlucky for them to make up a majority of your 20 randomly selected users. If aberrations in the random user subset still seemed to happen to frequently, you could (a) increase the subset size to something more than 20, or (b) have an "appeal" option where if you happened to get really unlucky in the first round, you could appeal to another group of 20 people. (To prevent the appeal option from being overused, perhaps make people fill out a bunch of captchas or pay some tiny amount in order to "appeal", refundable if their appeal wins.)

      Yes, even in the Salganik studies or in the real world, you have to be "good enough" in order to get a "big break", but my concern is that with the chaotic luck-dominated process that we have now, the number of qualified people (or songs, or ideas) is vastly greater than the number that do get the "big break", and their potential is being wasted. (In the NFL, by contrast, even the losing teams get paid well and provide entertainment value to fans, unlike musicians who are not lucky enough to get discovered.)

    2. Re:Luck by Antipater · · Score: 1

      Yes, even in the Salganik studies or in the real world, you have to be "good enough" in order to get a "big break", but my concern is that with the chaotic luck-dominated process that we have now, the number of qualified people (or songs, or ideas) is vastly greater than the number that do get the "big break", and their potential is being wasted. (In the NFL, by contrast, even the losing teams get paid well and provide entertainment value to fans, unlike musicians who are not lucky enough to get discovered.)

      I don't see how your solution changes that, though. Assuming it's implemented properly, wouldn't the ideas that already get their big break still make it through the screening alongside others that wouldn't have, and then be subject to the whims of the people? It seems like all you'd be doing is having a layer of bureaucracy to do what the Salganik effect already does. So as an example, in the current, free-range internet, there'd be a million potential memes, of which 20,000 qualify as "good enough" for the Salganik effect, and then two or three get their big break. In your proposed system, the jury would examine the million possible memes, whittle them down to probably around 20,000, then release them to the greater public, and then two or three would get the big break from there. Extra effort for similar results.

      You also have to account for the fact that people do not like being told what to believe in. You suggest sites like Reddit start doing this - wouldn't Redditors cry censorship, and simply move to a site that didn't? A jury system works in real-life courts because it's difficult to move to a different country when a jury hands down a verdict you don't like (think of the outrage after the Casey Anthony acquittal, for instance). All it would take would be one high-profile "hey look how great my idea was, and the jury voted it down!" for people to start switching over to a Reddit-Sans-Jury, and we'd be back where we started.

      So you have a system that's ineffective on both sides. If it skews too lenient, then it would simply slice out the fraction of bad memes that would already be ignored. If it skews too draconian, then people will simply go to a different website.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    3. Re:Luck by bennetthaselton · · Score: 1

      Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner, because I think this is actually quite an insightful point and deserves a reply, as to whether the "winners" from random-sample-voting would simply be whittled down to a smaller set of "winners" by another pseudo-random process.

      I think my system works in cases where either of two conditions are true: (1) where we have room for more "winners" (i.e. there is a user base that is willing to consume more "good enough" content than is currently pushed to them), or (2) where it's extremely important to find and promote the very best content and not just that which is "good enough".

      Take music as an example of the first case. I'm fairly picky about music, and I would be willing to spend far more money buying music, than I'm actually able to spend, because I'm not able to find enough stuff that's "good enough" by my standards. Meanwhile there are probably plenty of musicians producing stuff that I would enjoy, but the existing chaotic marketplace doesn't match us with each other. If I simply joined a community of people with similar tastes, and musicians producing that type of music all had their compositions rated by a random sample of users, so that the songs with the highest average ratings got pushed out to all users, then I would probably find more music that I wanted to buy. Musicians and consumers both win.

      A good example of the second case -- where it's important to identify the very best content -- would be online tutorials. In many subjects, there are more written and video tutorials online than any one person could possibly watch or read, but many of them are not very good -- apparently written at typing speed by someone hoping to grab a little more search engine traffic. In that case we need *fewer* winners, not more. The random sample voting system should be used to identify the very, very best tutorials, and then steer as many people as possible toward those. Once you've read the top five tutorials in a subject, hopefully you'd understand it, and you wouldn't need to consume all the others. (Yes, different people have different learning styles, so not everyone would agree on what constituted the "best" tutorials, but the same point still holds; you could use the system to identify the best tutorials for visual learners, the best tutorials or audio learners, etc.)

      I think my system would be unnecessary in cases where neither of the above two conditions are true -- i.e., situations where there's only room for a few possible winners, and it doesn't really matter whether they are actually the best at what they do. The Oscars would be a good example. I think it's absurd to think that the people who actually get the Oscars are really the "best actors" in any given year. If it were super important for society to identify the best actors, we should allow anyone who pays a fee to make an audition tape, and then have the audition tape reviewed by a random sample of reviewers (the fee would cover the cost of paying the reviewers), and pick the best actors based on their highest average score. But that would be a waste of time, because nobody cares who is literally the "best actor" on Earth.

  10. Dear Mr. Bennett Haselton by a_big_favor · · Score: 1

    some anti-women and pro-rape pages on Facebook... humorless feminists.

    We have different senses of humor.

  11. What's the point of this? by Brucelet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Remind me again why Bennett Haselton gets to use the Slashdot front page as his personal blog?

    1. Re:What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno, but he can't tell the difference between interrupting a person and physically abusing them:

      "A friend of mine likes posting things on his Facebook like "I was trying to remember the name of Rihanna's ex, and then it hit me," which I thought was funny, but which some WAM supporters probably would have reported as "abusive content." I wonder how many of those same people would have filed a report if he'd said, "I was about to say the name of Lorena Bobbitt's ex, but I got cut off.""

    2. Re:What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think slashdot's so called editors feel like slashdot needs to field some original content to justify their own jobs, but they neither know how to write nor know anyone who knows how to write.

      So it happens that every so often some determined hanger-on, such as Bennett Haselton, starts submitting crap like this to slashdot and it the editors dutifully publish it because it fills that gap in their lives.

    3. Re:What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that both John Bobbitt and Rihanna are victims of physical abuse. The *actual* difference here is Bobbit was male and therefore WAM supporters would not be concerned.

    4. Re: What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "it hit me" is an idiom for an idea popping into one's head. It also literally refers to beating someone. (As Chris Brown did to Rihanna.)

      "got cut off" is an idiom for being interrupted. It also literally refers to cutting off someone's penis. (As Lorena Bobbitt did to her husband, whose name escapes me.)

      These are both funny because of that double meaning, and they're pretty nicely paralleled. When you say Bennie Hasslewhatsit is equating the literal meaning of one and the idiomatic meaning of the other, either you didn't get one of the meanings, or you're just plain trolling.

    5. Re:What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno, but he can't tell the difference between interrupting a person and physically abusing them:

      While I'm no fan of Bennett, I'm guessing you don't know who Lorena Bobbitt is, or what she did. Or you don't consider getting your dick cut off to be physically abusing to someone.

    6. Re:What's the point of this? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      How about all the women on twitter and facebook after Chris Brown beat the ever loving shit out of Rihanna and they were running around saying they'd let him beat the hell out of them? And attacking *her* for being beat up by him? That was pretty sickening shit. I didn't see any defense force out for that.

      Pretty hideous shit, but it seems better to just let people be hideous so everyone else can have a platform to respond to them, which in turn emphasizes just how stupid the original hideous comments *are*.

      Anyway . . .

      "Call me crazy, buttttttt I would let Chris Brown beat me up anyyyy day"

      "Everyone shut up about Chris brown being a woman beater... Shiiittt he can beat me up all night if he wants"

      "Not gonna lie.. I think I'd let Chris Brown beat me #sosexy #lovehim #awkwardtweet #dontevencare"

      "I'd let Chris Brown beat me up anytime ;) #womanbeater"

      "I'd let Chris Brown beat me up"

      "Like I've said multiple times before, Chris Brown can beat me all he wants.l... I'd do anything to have him oh my"

      "chris brown could beat me all he wants, he is flawless"

      "Chris brown.. Please beat me ;)"

      "Chris brown could beat me up all he wants #idontcurr"

      "I don't know why Rihanna complained. Chris Brown could beat me anytime he wanted to"

      "Damn chris brown you can beat me up anytyme boo!"

      "I would let Chris Brown beat me"

      "I'd let Chris Brown beat me any day;)"

      "I'd let chris brown punch me in the face"

      "id let chris brown beat me"

      "ok not gonna lie i'd let chris brown beat the eff out of me"

      "i wish chris brown would punch me"

      "Chris Brown could serenade me and then punch me in the eye. I'm down for it."

      "I'd let chris brown punch me in the face"

      "Dude, Chris brown can punch me in the face as much as he wants to, just as long as he kisses it (:"

      "Chris brown can punch me ANY DAY."

      "Okay i'd let Chris brown punch me in the face"

      "chris brown can punch me whenever he wants #love"

      source: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/horrible-reactions-to-chris-brown-at-the-grammys#21312sf

      http://www.chicagonow.com/families-in-the-loop/files/2013/02/rihanna-abuse.jpg

    7. Re:What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno, but he can't tell the difference between interrupting a person and physically abusing them:

      While I'm no fan of Bennett, I'm guessing you don't know who Lorena Bobbitt is, or what she did. Or you don't consider getting your dick cut off to be physically abusing to someone.

      Of course it isn't! Remember, that's a disfigurement happening to a MALE, so that automatically makes it funny and what's-his-face probably deserved it anyway, like all men do! Therefore, justice!</misandry>

    8. Re:What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. This is faux-social justice garbage and does not belong on here any more than a story about any other random set of moderators would.

    9. Re: What's the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, sorry bout that. I did not get it.

    10. Re:What's the point of this? by psithurism · · Score: 1

      It was most likely the outcome of a mostly arbitrary and random process that required a lot of luck.

  12. Shut the fuck up Bennett by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, you are a windbag.

    TL;DR: Blah blah blah

  13. Legal questions by intermodal · · Score: 1

    I'm sure Facebook looked at the legal liabilities of allowing such content on their service in their decision. It wasn't simple campaigning. If it weren't for the problems of people posting openly about illegal activity, this would have fallen on deaf ears. There's a reason that campaigning hasn't convinced Facebook to stop treating breastfeeding photos as pornography, despite the constant campaigning by groups of mothers. There's no potential for getting sued for deleting their content (breastfeeding is explicitly protected in, I believe, 48 states), but there is potential for liability if Facebook does nothing about people openly claiming to be guilty of or proposing and condoning the commission of violent personal felonies against individuals.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    1. Re:Legal questions by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Huh? What are the legal liabilities of "#throwshoesathookers" or whatever?

    2. Re:Legal questions by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Huh? What are the legal liabilities of "#throwshoesathookers" or whatever?

      Well, if they're bad shoes, the hookers could twist their ankles or even fall and hurt themselves.

  14. RTFS by dantotheman · · Score: 1

    Normally I'm one the few ./ers that actually RTFS. But seriously, this summary is longer than most articles that pop up on here...

    I need a tl;dr version of the summary.

  15. I get it! by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    Bennett isn't crapflooding us, he's crapflooding the NSA. I guess he's hoping that if he writes enough pointless shit like this, the NSA's AI bots will commit suicide.

    In fact, he may not be a person at all but some sort of low quality chinese AI script designed to write longwinded and boring essays.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    1. Re:I get it! by bennetthaselton · · Score: 1

      osteoporosis helpful paprika diem brandon alert inveigh martyr superfluity couple amphibious dutchman sienna careworn gladiator primacy tournament productivity cohesion infusible cheery wicket utopia nasa suckling annum juju baden pusey besotted harvard tractor formal gracious chevalier bedrock kindred sacred vagrant doria timid bonnet haag beet cutout bridgeport calligraph lockstep

  16. ERMAHGERD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bernert Herseltern!

    But seriously, why is Slashdot now his personal soapbox?

  17. Another day... by dontbemad · · Score: 1

    another group of people being offended by trolls on the internet.

  18. Why wold anyone... by sinij · · Score: 1

    Why would anyone prevent bigots from self-identifying with facebook groups?

  19. Influence Facebook? by DogDude · · Score: 1

    I don't understand why anybody thinks that as Facebook products/users, they'd have any ability at all to influence Facebook. Seems pretty silly for me to use a service for free and think that you'd be able to have any say as to the quality of the service. I think that some people forget that they're not the customers, but the *products* that Facebook sells to customers. This guy seems to think that Facebook is some sort of public utility that regular people have some sort of rights to influence.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  20. Go Miami! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck Facebook.

  21. This is not unique to misogynistic content by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Welcome to 2010 when cycling groups noticed a surge in anti-cyclist pages, advocating intentionally harassing or injuring cyclists. In some cases, posters proudly brag about harassing and striking cyclists.

    Facebook has formally refused to remove the groups despite clearly violating their policies.

    1. Re:This is not unique to misogynistic content by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's probably a fantastic idea that Facebook doesn't allow anything to be posted that might be naughty in any way whatsoever (because, you know, words are obviously worse than actual actions or something). I mean, think about it. Law enforcement groups of all kinds trawl Facebook both to uncover crimes and to find proof of guilt for crimes they've already picked someone up for. If someone is a jackhole and smacked a bicyclist (no matter how much they often fucking deserve it) and then the cops dig around their Facebook profile and see a bunch of posts about smacking cyclists, then . . . well . . .

      But if Facebook doesn't allow you to post anything "questionable", then Facebook is no longer a useful resource for uncovering the dirt to help establish guilt for an action.

    2. Re:This is not unique to misogynistic content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If posters are proudly bragging about harassing and striking cyclists, isn't that a matter for the police rather than Facebook? That sounds like me to someone confessing to attempted murder.

    3. Re:This is not unique to misogynistic content by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I've got some rope and two trees at the bottom of a hill waiting for critical mass to try their BS here.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  22. Random? Luck? by mooingyak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In reality, the success of the campaign was most likely the outcome of a mostly arbitrary and random process that required a lot of luck

    1. Someone shows Nissan and other major advertisers how advertisements for their products were showing up on pages advocating/glorifying rape.
    2. Nissan (and other) execs pretty much instantly say "Holy Shit I don't want us associated with that" and pull ads from FB, COSTING FACEBOOK HUGE GOBS OF MONEY.
    3. Facebook starts addressing the problem.

    #fbrape hit them in the wallet. There's nothing random or lucky about it.

    --
    William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
  23. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know why Facebook should be forced to remove jokes that feminists find offensive. It shouldn't be Facebook's job to be the PC police on tasteless jokes, but I guess feminists are a strong enough political movement that they managed to enforce their will on Facebook. I'm sure that tasteless jokes about men do not get a beep on anyone's radar. What's next? Religious jokes? Can't have those heathens blaspheming, after all...

  24. Re:Random? Luck? by mooingyak · · Score: 2

    In reality, the success of the campaign was most likely the outcome of a mostly arbitrary and random process that required a lot of luck

    Forgot to mention, that sentence needs to be taken out and shot.

    --
    William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
  25. you're mistaken Bennett by nimbius · · Score: 1

    Its facebook, hence youre the product. The product does not complain or pout or campaign. The product is sold to the market, and as long as a market exists for gender based hate speech the pages will exist as well.

    now, with Nissan, you are a consumer. if you as a consumer dont appreciate their marketing on these pages then by all means direct your complaints to them. in turn Nissan will demand a partial refund for poor demographic targeting and insist facebook fine-tune its system to prevent further unrest and complaint from their customers.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  26. Sad but true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These days, whoever whines the most wins.

  27. Re:This is fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry Miss this bill is counterfeit.

    Oh my god, I've been raped!

  28. So your solution by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    TO "$1-an-hour grunt worker[s]" who are ineffective, you claim.
    Is to get minimal or zero paid workers. Which is what they apparently already have. So you just want more of them?

    So basically, that entire essay is just saying that they should expand their workforce and have multiple people look at each report

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  29. Trust But Verify by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where can we access these allegedly pro-rape and anti-woman pages, to verify that the complaints aren't simply misandrist reactionaries?

  30. Americans have the privacy they deserve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The last week has been most telling. More Americans consider the NSA leaker a patriot, rather than a traitor, and some are outraged about their lack of privacy.

    This is in spite of most Americans choosing to use Facebook, a company that will try to guess profiles of people that are not members, and do some social engineering to get them to join. Many people choose to use Facebook Comments on various websites. Facebook will actually sell your information to companies that will use that information, unlike highly classified spies that want to kill terrorists, answer to congressional committees, and don't care about your boring friends. People participate in grocery store data mining programs, in exchange for a 5 percent discount.

    Many Americans supported big and expensive nation building operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and 'supporting the troops' on the grounds of fighting 'them', 'over there', and it cost America over a trillion dollars. Americans don't know that Bill Clinton launched the Kosovo War without much support from Congress, or that there was not large scale ethnic cleansing, and that the KLA were drug dealers. Now, the People in DC are committing to go to war with China, on the behalf of Vietnam and Malaysia over some islands, or that Japan is claiming some islands, the Ryukyu Kingdom said were Chinese in a six hundred year old treaty.

    When you fight terrorists on your home turf, you have the police, the populace on your side, and the telecommunications systems on your side. Especially, when the terrorists think the later is not, and will let down their guard, like those Chechnyans in Boston did with their screwed up car robbery a few months back. At least Congress had the smarts to do widespread survellance, when parts of the populace were calling for greater action, like war. A leaker could have been more productive, and leaked about the surveillance of OWS, and Congress could take action... or show its colors. But, no, the stupid leaker, felt he knew better than members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, al qaeda is going to be more careful with its communications. Just like when Osama stopped using his satellite phone, when the New York Times reported that Osama was being tracked by his satellite phone.

    Americans got the privacy they chose to have. May the leaker from a bullet wound to the face.

  31. i wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Facebook is a private business, and the First Amendment doesn't apply.

    how can this be true, actually? first amendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    since corps exist only by laws allowing them to, free speech should apply transitively, since "no law" can "[abridge] the freedom of speech"

    1. Re:i wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not required to post your thoughts on my blog for example. No one is required to provide speech for anyone else. FaceBook give people some extra ways to speak, they are not in the business of restricting it. If you want to eliminate spam filters on comments and non wiki pages on constitutional rights grounds, feel free to try.

      If facebook did not exist, you couldn't post there. Don't claim we have a constitutional right to have face book access: thats stupid. They could shut it down legally if they wanted to.

    2. Re:i wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not required to post your thoughts on my blog for example. No one is required to provide speech for anyone else. FaceBook give people some extra ways to speak, they are not in the business of restricting it. If you want to eliminate spam filters on comments and non wiki pages on constitutional rights grounds, feel free to try.

      If facebook did not exist, you couldn't post there. Don't claim we have a constitutional right to have face book access: thats stupid. They could shut it down legally if they wanted to.

      You used nearly every spelling for "Facebook". That's cool!

  32. Another recent case by NoNotTheMindProbe · · Score: 1
    I have lost track of the number of times Facebook have removed a post arbitrarily. To them, a picture showing a woman breastfeeding, or a lady displaying her mastectomy scars is labelled as "pornographic", resulting in images removed, and the user banned for varying times, while Facebook turns a blind eye to groups advocating rape and violence. This week, Facebook did nothing when the contact phone number of a mental hospital in the US were published and a post urged people to call up to harrass the staff and "loonies". Hell, Facebook even refused to ban links to a movie showing a real-life execution as it didn't violate their terms of service. But when Zuckerberg's sister's pictures were stolen from Facebook and plastered all over the internet, Facebook were damned quick to react then! Lets see how they react to the proposed prosecution by the Italian authorities which has stemmed from an on-line bullying campaign that made a young girl kill herself. Maybe they'll finally take all this seriously....

    This overlaps with something a friend of mine, Jon Smith, is experiencing at the moment. He collects ocean liner memorabilia and posts them on his various Facebook groups (such as "The Olympic Class Liners"). He watermarks them in line with Facebook's policy of showing where images come from, and also to protect his investment as pictures are routinely lifted and passed off as someone else's property. The watermarks show that the images in this case have come from his own collection and not pilfered by right clicking Google images.

    This has angered other groups, such as "Lovers of the Ocean Liners" who routinely steal other's pictures, usually claiming them off as their own images. Of course they can't do this with watermarked images, so they are particularly irate. This theft has irked other observers external to FB too too, such as this lot. "Lovers of the Ocean Liners" are an odd bunch, prone to banning people on a whim, routinely lying about pictures and so on. Three of their admins (Kipfer Fox, Carl Ireton and Gene Speroni (now posting under the name Virgil Gene)) have received permanent bans from Facebook for theft but somehow they always seem to come back and gloat about how they get around Facebook. So far the watermarking has resulted in some grumbling, but things went to a new level when one user accused my friend Jon of plagiarising pictures by right clicking and putting his name on the images, thereby in his view, laying claim to not just the odd postcard Jon has bought, but EVERY single instance of that photo created since the dawn of time. This man doesn't seem to realize that there is an infinity of different in watermarking an instance of a picture and copyrighting all images.

    This is where it starts to get really unpleasant. The user referred to above has taken his malice to new levels. He set up a facebook group called "Fakers frauds and other plagiaristic pariahs" to hound the copyright thieves but it in a group set up mainly to attack Jon and his friends. You may think "So what, this is just is a silly spat over very old photographs, well outside of copyright". You may have a point. BUT on that "Fakers Frauds..." page, the "gentleman" in question took to posting homophobic slurs and various threats. He said that he would have his friends break Jon's legs. He made comments about Jon and his friends molesting people. He even accused one lad of being a child molester with not a single piece of evidence presented. There are many other examples. The man, Mike Crowe (who also goes under the FB name Michael Crowe, thereby breaking Facebook's one-account-per-person rule) is an interesting man. He claims to be have been a director of a cruise line but when contacted they say that he hasn't worked for them for over a year (he has since changed his details); his inability to articulate except in crude terms would not seem to be on par with someone who claimed to study at Oxford University and then served at the RAF. He claims to

    1. Re:Another recent case by NoNotTheMindProbe · · Score: 1

      A little postscript; Crowe has also taken to putting various put-downs and unnecessarily cruel comments etc. on Jon's YouTube channel, for absolutely no reason except to confirm the impression that Crowe is an internet stalker.

  33. Anti woman? by leereyno · · Score: 1

    What exactly does "anti woman" mean?

    I'm being serious here. Exactly how does someone create a page/group that attacks half the population in a way that anyone would take seriously?

    Exactly how do you successfully cast half the world as the "other?"

    --
    Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.