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Ancient Roman Concrete Is About To Revolutionize Modern Architecture

schwit1 sends this news from Businesweek: "After 2,000 years, a long-lost secret behind the creation of one of the world's most durable man-made creations ever — Roman concrete — has finally been discovered by an international team of scientists, and it may have a significant impact on how we build cities of the future. Researchers have analyzed 11 harbors in the Mediterranean basin where, in many cases, 2,000-year-old (and sometimes older) headwaters constructed out of Roman concrete stand perfectly intact despite constant pounding by the sea. The most common blend of modern concrete, known as Portland cement, a formulation in use for nearly 200 years, can't come close to matching that track record. In seawater, it has a service life of less than 50 years. After that, it begins to erode. The secret to Roman concrete lies in its unique mineral formulation and production technique. As the researchers explain in a press release outlining their findings, 'The Romans made concrete by mixing lime and volcanic rock. For underwater structures, lime and volcanic ash were mixed to form mortar, and this mortar and volcanic tuff were packed into wooden forms. The seawater instantly triggered a hot chemical reaction. The lime was hydrated — incorporating water molecules into its structure — and reacted with the ash to cement the whole mixture together.'"

35 of 322 comments (clear)

  1. Prior art by advantis · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can this discovery of old stuff be patented today, or is the fact that the romans did it so long ago constitute prior art? Or will the argument go like "We don't have a treaty with the Roman Empire regarding Intelectual Property Rights, an nobody did this in our country yet, so sure, go ahead an patent it"...?

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    1. Re:Prior art by geekmux · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Can this discovery of old stuff be patented today, or is the fact that the romans did it so long ago constitute prior art? Or will the argument go like "We don't have a treaty with the Roman Empire regarding Intelectual Property Rights, an nobody did this in our country yet, so sure, go ahead an patent it"...?

      People are amazed by this new discovery and yet legality was the first thought here.

      I know you were somewhat joking here, but this is exactly why we can't have nice things. Too many damn laws stand in the way of true innovation anymore. It will be our demise.

    2. Re:Prior art by dpilot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > I know you were somewhat joking here, but this is exactly why we can't have nice things.
      > Too many damn laws stand in the way of true innovation anymore. It will be our demise.

      And I suspect that some (specifically, the owners of that "Intellectual Property") peoples' real attitude is that they will be on top of you and me as we all sink, and the sinking will stop while they're still above water. Whether or not you and I are above water will not be relevant, as long there are enough left to do the necessary work for a pittance.

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    3. Re:Prior art by Immerman · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem is that it's the rebar itself that often destroys the structure. Concrete is porous, and so water finds it's way into the structure and gradually corrodes the rebar. The problem is that rust (iron+oxygen) is considerably larger than the original iron, and since concrete can't stretch to accommadate the expansion it eventually gets torn apart.

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    4. Re:Prior art by Immerman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Steel reinforcement would negate the longevity of Roman concrete anyway. The rebar will eventually rust out and crack the concrete as it expands. That's fine if your concrete won't last nearly as long as the rebar anyway, but with Roman concrete the rebar would completely rust away while the concrete itself was still just fine.

      There are other benefits though, mainly the reduced carbon footprint of production, and the near-total immunity to spalling which all modern concretes suffer from.

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    5. Re:Prior art by Artifakt · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you really want to check facts, the Vatican was first recognized as a separate nation in 1929 a.d. by the Lateran Treaty, signed by representitives of the then current pope on one hand and Benito Mussolini on the other. 1929 is just a tad later than the end of the Roman empire.* Maybe you are thinking of 'the' Holy See,** or some of the Papal Estates that went back to at least Medieval times.

      * Watch someone post "citation needed".

      **Technically, any Bishop's diocese is a See, and presumably at least some Bishops in some eras have been not particularly unholy, so what the Pope, as Bishop of Rome, has, is merely a holy see, even though a lot of lay people seem to use the term like he has a lock on it.

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    6. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The biggest problem in todays concrete production is cost effectiveness. We can produce hundreds of concretes with widely varying properties. We can mix concretes with negligible carbon footprint or extreme durability or very steep viscoelasticity, but pumping tons of these into a foundation would cost more than simply using pure steel for all of it.

      Source: I've just passed a polymer physics course, and the professors primary research area is concretes.

      captcha: unfold

    7. Re:Prior art by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Christianity was part of the cause of the downfall.

      So sayeth some (e.g. Gibbons), but I think that's more about the agenda of the writer/historian than a dispassionate look at the facts. I'd argue the Crisis of the Third Century was the real beginning of the end (and started the path to the early middle ages) , yet it happened before Christianity became the official religion of the empire in the fourth century.

    8. Re:Prior art by GLMDesigns · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Absolutely, the patchwork put together by Diocletian (separating the Empire into the East and West) was evidence that the empire was falling apart. The argument for and against different reasons would take too long to go into but, among them are, the collapse of the Republic into a police-state/Empire; crazy laws to keep the status quo (your father was a brick layer means that you must be a bricklayer); people fleeing the taxes and the ever present civil wars; climate change (became wet and cool) meaning that less land was available for agriculture plus the rise of diseases. Plagues swept Europe from 200-700 in the cool period; the plagues disappeared from 700-1350 in the medieval warm period and then returned every generation from 1350-1700.

      Other things contributed to the collapse such increased border invasions from Central Asia tribes (perhaps due to Chinese expansion forcing these tribes westward). Whatever it was - the collapse of the Roman Empire was not due to the rise of Christianity.

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    9. Re:Prior art by geoskd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Question is - why is it necessary for concrete to be reinforced? Obviously, the Romans didn't have steel or iron rebar. They formed and poured their structures without any rebar, and they've lasted a couple thousand years. It seems more than obvious that our architects and engineers can learn a few things from the Romans.

      You'll notice a distinct lack of concrete roofs on roman structures. That is because: even if they were built with them (unlikely), they have long since collapsed. Concrete has very little tensile strength. In order to get tensile strength, you have to add rebar. Were a pretty fussy breed, and for some reason we like roofs. Additionally, making a floor span out of reinforced concrete is a hell of a lot cheaper than almost any alternative. The Romans used wood...

      it should also be noted that the Romans didn't build things terribly tall. a dozen or so stories was about their limit. It goes back to lack of rebar. Concrete without rebar doesn't stand up to a lateral load very well.

      Where this stuff really shines is in a salt water environment. The concrete we have today doesn't stand up to salt water punishment well at all. We don't have *any* good formulations for this application. Rebar or not, concrete in salt water has to be replaced pretty often. The roman concrete is immensely valuable if for no other use than bridges.

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    10. Re:Prior art by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The harder part may be finding enough suitable sources of volcanic ash that can be mined, and not all ash has the same mineral ratios and such. That would still limit its use unless there's some way to make a decent enough man-made equivalent that's better than the Portland formula.

      And right there you've put your finger on both the source of the mystery and why this won't work everywhere.

      In ancient Rome they didn't have the huge reduction furnaces used in the creation of Portland Cement. All they had was the raw materials found laying around or easily mined. Living in a volcanic region near the sea they had both in abundance.

      In other areas conquered by Rome they never found the same mix of volcanic materials, lime, and seawater, and the structures they built there did not hold up as well. The aluminum-rich pozzolan ash isn't exactly something you find in the British isles or France. And away from the sea, any available water would be used. Its entirely possible the Romans had no no idea that sea water was essential to this mixture.

      The whole thing was an accident of geography, and apparently one which no one cared to look into too closely, or those that did were unable to replicate due to raw material availability, because analysis of the composition of roman cement was well withing the scientific capabilities of even the 1800s and probably even the 1600s.

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    11. Re:Prior art by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Christianity was part of the cause of the downfall.

      Another argument against that idea is that while the Western Empire fell in the 5th century, the Eastern Empire, which was just as Christian, continued for another 1000 years.

    12. Re:Prior art by cusco · · Score: 4, Funny

      It also goes back to the lack of elevators. Think about walking up to your office on the 42nd floor in the morning . . .

      The invention of the modern safety elevator revolutionized construction in the major cities of the world. Prior to them becoming affordable almost no buildings in New York City were higher than six stories, and the top floors were always the cheapest. It made no financial sense to build higher, no one wanted to carry groceries up to the 27th floor.

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    13. Re:Prior art by Immerman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually atom size is only very loosley related to atomic weight - size does increase as you move down the periodic table in a single column (more electron shells), but it actually shrinks as you move to the right (tighter bonding between electrons and the nucleus). Basically the discrepancy is because atomic mass is determined almost entirely by the nucleus, which is several orders of magnitude smaller than the entire atom. Size on the other hand is determined by the arrangement of the electron cloud.

      For a quick visual reference: http://www.crystalmaker.com/support/tutorials/crystalmaker/atomicradii/
      Notice that a lithium atom, with an atomic mass of only 7, is actually about the same size as bismuth, which has an atomic mass of 209

      And the basic fact is that the oxide can't possibly be the same size as the original material. Common rust has the chemical formula Fe2O3, which means that where you used to have only two iron atoms, you now have two iron atoms PLUS three oxygen atoms. But you are right that the basic strategy is to prevent flaking, if we could somehow "convince" the oxide to form hematite crystals instead of flaking away corrosion would be a non-issue. That's why highly reactive aluminum appears to be so stable, the oxide readily forms a thin crystaline layer bonded to the metal which prevents further oxidation (basically corundum, the base gemstone of rubies and saphires). Disrupt the oxide layer and the aluminum will *very* rapidly rust away, as in you can actually see a beam "dissolving" in front of you - that's why they don't allow mercury thermometers on airplanes, mercury is one such disrupting agent and a spill could cause the aircraft to come apart in the air.

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    14. Re:Prior art by careysub · · Score: 4, Informative

      Turns out its not the ash that mattered.

      Its just the composition of the particular variety of ash they had on hand. Volcanic ash differs in various volcanic regions. Further, seawater was also key. You don't find much of that in the middle of continents.

      This wasn't ancient knowledge at work at all. It was simply an accident of geography.

      Is it really any different from the fact that availability of raw materials in any region is an accident of geography?

      If you read TFA you will see that:

      A) the Romans were well aware which ashes were the best for this purpose. Vitruvius and Pliny wrote about it. It is not as if they were mystified why this hydraulic cement was turning out so well. Sure they didn't understand the chemistry, but they tried many ashes and knew the ones that had special properties.

      B) The researchers found this concrete in 11 harbors around the Mediterranean. This means the Roman were exporting their special ash to where it was needed for harbor construction.

      Sounds like ancient knowledge to me. (Otherwise you are going to have to hold that none of the material production skills before modern times were really ancient knowledge.)

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    15. Re:Prior art by mc6809e · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nope, we have lost the Roman concrete precisely thanks to the Christian led purges of the 4th century. Constantine and Theodosius did it and the dark age quickly followed. They burned libraries, melted artworks dating back to the Etruscan era, history been rewritten so they are the saints now..

      Total bullcrap.

      After the Christianizing of Rome, much classical knowledge still remained available. Literacy was high and papyrus from Egypt was available for writing. The library at Alexandria was restocked several times after fires with works held in private collections. And the families of Germanic invaders actually had their children educated by Romans and many old Roman cities kept their Roman character.

      Then suddenly old Roman cities failed and were quickly covered by a layer of soil called the "Younger fill". Literacy declined and papyrus was no longer available because trade with Egypt was no longer possible as the Mediterranean was controlled by pirates. Many classical works were lost and the library at Alexandria could not be restocked. Christian monks were forced to write on animal skins instead of paper.

      This all began long after Christianity -- around the middle of the 7th century. I'll leave it to you to figure out what other events of the 7th century might be responsible.

    16. Re:Prior art by Immerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For all the bashing on Wikipedia I remember seeing several studies that showed that, excepting controversial topics (which can suffer from orchestrated edit wars and astroturfing), the accuracy was generally on-par or better than The Encyclopedia Britanica and other "gold standard" sources. It may not always be completely accurate and up to date, but will typically be as reliable as any other single reference source, and the information will often far more detailed and accessible than most.

      So how about instead of bashing one of the most reliable and comprehensive encyclopedias in the world, you instead go ahead and update the page that links to the obsolete periodic table image. You don't even have to understand the markup, just search for the link and make the minor tweak. Or do you really prefer to be one of the gawking bystanders?

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    17. Re:Prior art by Deadstick · · Score: 4, Funny

      In regards to rebar necessity, it is in order to achieve sufficient tensile strength in lesser thicknesses of concrete pours. It is absolutely possible to build a bridge with no rebar, just make the bridge one big slab that extends from the road to the river bed.

      Ummm, I believe that would be called a dam.

    18. Re:Prior art by cbhacking · · Score: 4, Informative

      Speaking as somebody whose family has lived on the ocean for over 18 years, marine-grade stainlees is pretty near impervious to seawater. You need to check it periodically, of course, but if you use the right stuff (which is closer to the "20x cost of mild steel" end of the range) it will happily endure for a very long time without even significant discoloration. Of course, it helps there the boat also has zincs and that we're careful about dissimilar metals and so forth. Nonetheless, a really good grade of stainless (one way to tell is to check with a powerful magnet; good stainless is not noticeably magnetic) is able to endure seawater much better than you imply. You just can't be cheap about it... which makes it impractical as a building material in most cases.

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  2. Ancient Romans by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 4, Funny

    Digitus impudicus ad hodierna effercio. MM anni? Mirum dictu!

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  3. De Architectura by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find it odd that there are claims this is new information. Didn't Vitruvius describe it in his De Architectura, written about 15 BC?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_architectura

    Perhaps the story is confusing the known composition with some mechanism that the new study discovered.

    1. Re:De Architectura by Stickmaker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      When I was working on my BSCE in the mid-Seventies I had a course on concrete additives. Pozzolanic ash was definitely mentioned. I have also seen this mentioned many other places since then, including the fact that some of the Roman concrete mixes would cure under water. So, no, this isn't some revolutionary new discovery. Those claiming so are either ignorant of previous art - and that's *recent* previous art - or are deliberately trying to build up their own claims.

    2. Re:De Architectura by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So, no, this isn't some revolutionary new discovery. Those claiming so are either ignorant of previous art - and that's *recent* previous art - or are deliberately trying to build up their own claims.

      Or, maybe, just maybe, the Slashdot summary is merely quoting the first part of the press release that explains previously known information, but the Slashdot summary doesn't contain the actual details of the new findings, which describe some previously unknown aspects of the chemistry involved... some of which appear to be essential to the structural properties observed.

      But, oops... for that you'd have to RTFA.

    3. Re:De Architectura by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Funny

      Didn't Vitruvius describe it in his De Architectura, written about 15 BC?

      According to the terms of the Mickius Mousius copyright extension act, that means it'll soon enter the public domain.

  4. WWARS (What Would Ayn Rand Say) by jabberw0k · · Score: 4, Funny

    I plan to build my next structure with Roman Concrete and Rearden Steel...

  5. Bloody Romans! by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Funny

    All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

    1. Re:Bloody Romans! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Funny

      On the down side, they had to change their concrete marketing slogan from "It keeps the Germans out" to "It keeps the seawater out".

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    2. Re:Bloody Romans! by kaoshin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You left out the most important one of all. Welfare.

    3. Re:Bloody Romans! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      pasta.

      The Romans ate bread, not pasta. Noodles were invented in China, and didn't reach Europe until the late middle ages. The first record of pasta being made in Italy was in 1154.

  6. First to file by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    didn't most countries move to a first to file system? I'm pretty sure Julius didn't get to the Patent office on time for this one.

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  7. Well there's a news flash. by interval1066 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The secret to Roman concrete lies in its unique mineral formulation and production technique.

    Oh? Really? Its not becuase the Romans made sacrifices to Jupiter? They didn't make their concrete with a recipe given to them by ancients astronauts? The secret lies with thier recipe and technique? Who knew?

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  8. Revolutionize or "more eco-friendly"? by tijnbraun · · Score: 5, Informative

    From http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2013/06/04/roman-concrete/ While Roman concrete is durable, Monteiro said it is unlikely to replace modern concrete because it is not ideal for construction where faster hardening is needed. But the researchers are now finding ways to apply their discoveries about Roman concrete to the development of more earth-friendly and durable modern concrete. They are investigating whether volcanic ash would be a good, large-volume substitute in countries without easy access to fly ash, an industrial waste product from the burning of coal that is commonly used to produce modern, green concrete. “There is not enough fly ash in this world to replace half of the Portland cement being used,” said Monteiro. “Many countries don’t have fly ash, so the idea is to find alternative, local materials that will work, including the kind of volcanic ash that Romans used. Using these alternatives could replace 40 percent of the world’s demand for Portland cement.”

  9. Prestressed concrete performs better under tension by stoploss · · Score: 5, Informative

    Question is - why is it necessary for concrete to be reinforced? Obviously, the Romans didn't have steel or iron rebar. They formed and poured their structures without any rebar, and they've lasted a couple thousand years. It seems more than obvious that our architects and engineers can learn a few things from the Romans.

    IANASE (structural engineer), but from my understanding one key difference that reinforced concrete confers is that it allows the concrete to be prestressed to perform better under tension. Concrete (Roman or modern) is just fine under compression, so it can support a prodigious amount of weight loading down on it. However, once you try to span an area then the concrete in the middle of the span is normally under tension. As you can imagine, this often leads to cracking and outright failure. Furthermore, it's why the Romans had such a predilection to using arches and domes, which keep the concrete predominantly under compression rather than tension.

    Think about it this way: our highway bridges couldn't be built the way they are if we were using unreinforced Roman concrete; however, if the concrete is prestressed then the tensile forces are balanced by the compressive forces. This also allows us to do many other interesting things with architecture that weren't feasible before.

    I have wondered about whether something like carbon fiber could be used in the future to produce prestressed concrete that wasn't as prone to corrosion as the steel rebar-based approach. Something like that might be the best of both worlds. Okay, so I just Googled and it looks like at least one carbon-fiber approach is already patented.

    Just as an aside, the Romans were quite ingenious when it came to implementing their architectural application of concrete. I read that when Hadrian ordered the construction of the current version of the Pantheon, the Roman engineers were faced with difficulty designing a dome that would not collapse under its own weight (again, tensile forces and concrete are not friends). The Romans overcame this by reducing the density of the concrete in the dome by using pumice in the aggregate and reducing the thickness of the concrete as the dome progressed. The dome of the Pantheon remains the largest unreinforced concrete dome in the world—not because we can't replicate the techniques, but because reinforced concrete performs so much better under tension.

  10. Its the good stuff that lasts by starkadder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm sure that Roman concrete greatly varied in quality. Every batch was an experiment using local materials.The crap that didln't last for 25 year is long gone. All we have left to look at today are the results of successful experiments. And it is a wise thing to learn from it. But to consider everything the ancients built as evidence of their genius disregards the winnowing of time. Good stuff lasts, bad stuff falls apart and is discarded.

  11. Re:People discovered this in 86 it seems. by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes this article is garbage IMO. Pozzolans are the basis of concrete. That's what concrete powder is, an artificially produced pozzolan. Fly Ash is also a Pozzolan, we've been using in PCC for decades. Volcanic ash is also a Pozzolan, and in a sense it is "green" to use volcanic ash instead of modern cement powder because you don't have the input energy to make the cement powder. But Volcanic fly ash is NOT an unlimited supply and mining and transporting it may use just as much energy as cement powder.

    Second, Modern Portland Cement does NOT deteriorate after 50 years. Properly placed concrete has no known lifespan. (if concrete only lasted 50 years there would be a LOT of buildings failing every year) What does fail, as has been noted, is the reinforcing steel used to give the concrete tensile strength (concrete has no tensile strength) and wear and tear. There are ways around the rusting rebar that are being used, galvanized rebar, epoxy coated and stainless steel are just a few of the techniques being used to increase the lifespan of the rebar to give equal lifespan to the steel and concrete.

    Finally, we can make concrete better than the Romans, we just have to use the equivalent amount of Pozzolans they were using. When the Europeans (after the dark age) tried to duplicate the Roman mix they found it far to wet to be usable, the missing knowledge was that one of the mix ingredients was all that volcanic ash which meant the amount of pozzolan in the mix was far higher and in fact comprised a significant percentage of the mix. In fact the measurements made recently have shown that modern concrete isn't using near the equivalent amount of cement powder. Stronger concrete can easily be produced by increasing the amount of cement powder, the problem is the cost that adds. We don't use concrete of that strength generally because of two reasons, cost and failure mode. Standard reinforced portland cement concrete fails in a manner that provides warning of imminent collapse, high strength reinforced concrete does not provide that warning, it fails explosively.

    So in summary that is the WORST cement article I've ever read, but what can you expect from Businessweek I guess. It reads like a scam article to get someone to invest money in an idea that isn't revolutionary. Caveat Emptor.