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Have We Hit Peak HFT?

CowboyRobot writes "There was a time when people wanted the fastest networks so that they could trade at lightning speeds. They deployed the smartest formulas at trading venues where no one could know who was asking for that big block of stocks on the other end of the deal. It was a wild time and people made a lot of money along with some very unwise decisions. Wall Street seems to be acting out the lyrics to a Don Henley song. The party's over, the hangover is raging and no one really knows what happened the night before. The number of shares traded via high-frequency trading are down and politicians want to roll out a tax to serve as a speed bump. Iowa Senator Tom Harkin and Oregon Representative Peter DeFazio want a .03 percent tax on nearly every trade in nearly every market in the U.S. Some are wondering if microsecond dealings are poised to fade away. As the founder of HFT firm Tower Research Capital Mark Gorton puts it, 'The easy money's gone. We're doing more things better than ever before and making less money doing it.'"

476 comments

  1. Good by clickclickdrone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system. We need to really start to recognise that profit isn't all and long term stewardship of our instituitions and systems is key to our long term quality of live. For everyone.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    1. Re:Good by unique_parrot · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I think so too, therefore it should be MUCH higher than 0.03%.

    2. Re:Good by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      quality of *life*. Doh.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    3. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's 0.03% on everything, not just HFTs, so it has to be small. The intent is to tax people who make money on trade volume rather than on trade value, which is a larger issue than just the speed at which trades are executed.

    4. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      says the peasant. keep pretending that there must be "a few" up there that actually care about long term.

    5. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 2

      If the intent is to tax people on trade volume, then why not tax per volume traded?
      Geez.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    6. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system. We need to really start to recognise that profit isn't all and long term stewardship of our instituitions and systems is key to our long term quality of live. For everyone.

      Mostly true, but simplistic.

      HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system. It brings liquidity, which is good, but it has tended to move the market in unreasonable (and sometimes dangerous) ways. So many trades today are HFT versus HFT that it obscures the real markets. We've seen several clear instances where computers are terrible at predicting the real market values when the primary data they're competing against are the actions of other computers. HFT doesn't lead to good price discovery, it obscures it.

      When talking about long-term stewardship of institutions, we really need to move away from unreasonable earnings expectations every quarter. When the focus of the market is on ever narrowing periods of time, corporations simply cannot properly invest in the future. Yes, some corporations are lead by unusual people who can leave market panic behind them and truly lead... but most companies are run by very smart idiots.

      Ultimately, stock/commodity/bond markets are about profit. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. The question for the rest of us is: what is the social value? Wall Street has some social value, but it also has considerable social expense. Sometimes we forget that. We also tend to forget that "the markets" are still based upon similar principles that brought us the great depression. Yeah, they're more sophisticated now. Yes, there are "regulations" (occasionally enforced). But the market CANNOT bring prosperity by ignoring it, and letting it run on its own.

      Stock/commodity/bond markets are not capitalism. They are merely outgrowths of one particular variation on capitalism. They're finicky, hard to properly balance, and break if you try to exert too much control.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    7. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      says the peasant. keep pretending that there must be "a few" up there that actually care about long term.

      That's fine, as long as those "few" understand they will be the first ones eaten alive when the crash comes (that their greed caused).

      Pork fat can't run fast, figuratively or literally.

    8. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 0

      Because volume can be pretty darn arbitrary.

      A company "worth" $1G may have 10k shares at large, or it may have 100k shares at large. If someone wants to buy $100 worth of a company, a tax per share is ludicrous.

      Besides, a 0.03% tax is bad for everyone. It's a stupid "rich people are too rich" type of move. Way too much of our economy is tied into the stock market. Taxing it directly is only going to send ripples into the rest of the economy. Before we do anything like this, we first need to disentangle ourselves. (a long and painful process that very few are willing to consider for even a brief moment.)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    9. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it is 0.03% of the volume traded, so it is "per volume traded". Or do I missunderstand?

    10. Re:Good by SlashV · · Score: 5, Informative

      then why not tax per volume traded?

      It *is* taxed per volume. 0.03%, which it nothing for a normal transaction. But for someone who buys and sells the same stock a hundred times per day, just to profit from tiny fluctuations in the stock value, it's 3%. This will kill the ridiculous business of racing for fastest connection and smartest trading algo, which is *good* because it is a ridiculous and useless business.

    11. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ah, but you didn't consider the effect this will have.
      The result will be that share prices become normalized in a certain sense. Not too large to allow trading, not too small to allow reasonable trade taxes.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    12. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 2

      No, it will encourage expensive shares only. The more expensive the share, the less tax paid by large investors. It will lock small investors out of more institutions.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    13. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "... profit isn't all and long term stewardship of our instituitions and systems is key to our long term quality of live. For everyone."
      Yeah tell that to my golden plated bidet!

    14. Re:Good by peragrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Something like 60% of the active volume of trades are HFT that is lasting less than a second. That isn't investing in a company that is gambling.

      The other problem is the economy is growing at maybe 1% a year and the entire stock market is doing 10-15% Sure some companies are growing that way but there is a major disconnect between how wall street is growing and the rest of the world. If Wall street is supposed to be about individual company profits how can it be growing so far beyond the companies that are represented in it?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    15. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyway, the tax should of course be on short-term investments.
      The shorter an asset is kept, the higher the tax should be.

      If this is too difficult to implement, then perhaps a tax per transaction will do, indeed.
      If a HFT trader makes a profit of 0.03% per transaction then this tax will make HFT trading unprofitable, while leaving long-term investments mostly untouched.

      The effect will be that the frequency of trading will go down. The question is whether that will be sufficient. (Holding on to a stock for a day instead of a few milliseconds is not going to be a huge improvement in terms of long-term investment and long-term vision).

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    16. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's amazing how many clueless posts begin with a condescending "ah".

    17. Re:Good by Le+Marteau · · Score: 1

      What crash? There will be no crash, just a steady devolving and regression. Every civilization has it's rise, glory and decline and fall, and we're witnessing the fall. As in the Roman fall, it will take generations. But happen it will.

      We'll become more and more like Greece, which now has a 77% unemployment rate for those between 20 and 24 years old.

      Where is the "Pork Fat" there? I tell you where it's not... it's not out whoring so they can eat that day.

      If it makes your miserable life any more tolerable, keep hoping and dream "the man" gets what's coming to him.

      He probably won't. You, however, being much more closer to the edge, most likely will.

      --
      Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
    18. Re:Good by macson_g · · Score: 1

      And what about other assets, like currencies? Should they be taxed in similar way?
      You may not be so familiar with this in the US, but here in Europe, despite the Euro, people exchange currencies (effectively buying.selling financial instruments) quite often.
      It may not be big thing for a traveller, but a currency-exchange kiosks are doing tons of small transactions very frequently.

    19. Re:Good by Sique · · Score: 1

      In a way, it is already. If you trade 100 times for $10,000 each, you have to pay $300 tax. If you trade only once for $10,000, you have to pay $3. Thus trading once and then keeping it and intentionally missing the next 100 trade opportunities is rewarded.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    20. Re:Good by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2

      Even the 3 cents per $100 quickly adds up. It would kill liquidity and widen spreads. You're addressing one problem by creating a new and more damaging one.

    21. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      Tax them! These speculative transactions do not add value to the economy.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    22. Re:Good by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really? 0.03% will lok out small investors? If 0.03% makes things too expensive for you then stop trading in penny stocks.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    23. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This will kill the ridiculous business of racing for fastest connection and smartest trading algo, which is *good* because it is a ridiculous and useless business.

      That is not a reason to consider it "good." Essentially you are saying "I dont like how he makes money, so lets punish him"

      For it to be "good" there needs to be a positive effect. Please explain what the positive effect is, because I dont see it. I see the HFT offering bids and asks that are better than everyone elses .. how is discouraging better prices for both buyers and sellers a good thing?

      Seriously.. explain it to me without resorting to a hatred. Explain to everyone why it is that when they get a higher price when they sell and a lower price when they buy that its "bad." I happen to like paying less for things when I buy, and getting more for things when I sell.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    24. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such a Strawman. When did you receive your nobel prize in economics, Mr. Tobin?

    25. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what's happening. You are being front-runned.

    26. Re:Good by Too+Much+Noise · · Score: 4, Interesting

      HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system. It brings liquidity, which is good, but it has tended to move the market in unreasonable (and sometimes dangerous) ways.

      That is a bit simplistic as well. First, stepping in front of a trade because you can (1) see it before the other guy (due to having lower latencies in talking to the exchange or having priority 'fast' data feeds) and (2) quote using fraction of a penny increments as opposed to pennies for the 'regular' guys is not adding liquidity. In fact, from the way flash crashes happen you can see exactly how HFT does not add liquidity with a stock/future going bidless and crashing. Properly supplying liquidity would not allow for something like that to happen.

      When talking about long-term stewardship of institutions, we really need to move away from unreasonable earnings expectations every quarter.

      Who is we? The short-termism here is the market speaking. The idea of markets setting the 'right' price is highly dependent on your definition of 'right'. As the saying goes, markets can remain irrational longer than one can remain solvent (and bet on rationality). Nevermind the fact that people in the market have different types of interests which are not always aligned to long-term value. See corporate raiders, LBO, and so on - case in point, Icahn.

      When the focus of the market is on ever narrowing periods of time, corporations simply cannot properly invest in the future.

      That's not entirely the problem. When the upper echelons of the corporations receive stock options with short vesting periods (no, 5 years is not long term compared to typical investment horizons, and 5 years are not really that frequent) the motivation to invest in the long-term future is basically absent. Also, there are industries where that is simply not possible, as the prevailing conditions fluctuate too much.

      Ultimately, stock/commodity/bond markets are about profit. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. The question for the rest of us is: what is the social value?

      Indeed, profit is the key word. Social value is incidental, if at all.

    27. Re:Good by locofungus · · Score: 1, Insightful

      60% being HFT doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

      Given that market makers are, almost by definition, going to be doing HFT and there will be a market maker as counterparty to any investment trade, the "perfect" market would have 50% HFT matching buyers to sellers.

      There is certainly an argument as to whether market makers are really required but, in practice, if they're not there, then I can't see how there can be any more trust in the stock markets than there is trading in ebay.

      It's essential that when I buy I know that the stocks will be delivered and when I sell I know that I'll be paid. On ebay I factor in the fact that I might never get the goods into the price that I'm willing to pay.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    28. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't even gambling. It's a timing-attack on stock market servers.

    29. Re:Good by stenvar · · Score: 1

      HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system. We need to really start to recognise that profit isn't all and long term stewardship of our instituitions and systems is key to our long term quality of live. For everyone.

      HFT is a problem because it interferes with free markets: you can't have people make rational buying decisions within a few microseconds. But your second sentence has nothing to do with HFT. If you want to advocate an economy based on "long term stewardship", do so without erroneously linking it to HFT.

    30. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the 3 cents per $100 quickly adds up

      That's the point. Investing in a company generally means buying some part of the operation, allowing the company to do its business, profit, and return some of those earnings to the investors. Think months-or-years. eg, when Warren Buffett buys a company, he keeps it forever.

      If market profit relies on stepping between an investor and a business owner, shaving 1.5 cents/$100 off the price the owner receives and adding 1.5cents/$100 to the price the investor pays, and doing that for every transaction in the market, that's not really adding any liquidity or reducing spreads in any meaningful way. That's a speculator using technological advantage to collect a fee on transactions. This is bad behavior and should be discouraged.

      Speculation does reduce spread, and short-term trading should not be banned. The question is: how much of a spread actually does have a meaningful impact on liquidity? A bid-ask of $99.99-100.01 will not "kill" all trading, at least not by people expecting to hold longer than 10 milliseconds, but $90-110 would certainly be chilling. Find a level of taxation that makes microsecond transactions unprofitable but still allows integral-second transaction to be profitable, and you won't have any impact on human-mediated transactions that require a second just for the current data to be processed.

    31. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They are already charging you for the currency exchange, why not a tax?

      Keep in mind, the proposal is 3 one hundredths of one percent. That is 3 cents on $100.

    32. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It *is* taxed per volume.

      It *could be* taxed per volume.

    33. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      That's not what's happening. You are being front-runned.

      I know that people claim that its not what is happening, however the peer-reviewed research says different.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    34. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because a sniper's a sniper, whether it's eBay or stocks.

    35. Re:Good by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      The other problem is the economy is growing at maybe 1% a year and the entire stock market is doing 10-15%

      This is balanced by the market sometimes declining by 20-30% in a year when the economy grows by only 0.5%. The stock market is more of a derivative on the actual economy. That's a complicated concept, though, and "too much" for the American public to deal with, so the popular press generally treats the DJIA or SP500 as though they are the economy. It's nice: a single number with a long history for comparison. You can always make some inane statement about whether it's better than last year and you can always make a straight-line projection to say where it might be next year.

    36. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 4, Informative

      Jim has an apple. He calls out, who will give me 50 cents for this lovely apple. Jon likes apples so he heads over. Just as he raises his hand to call out, flash the wonder trader bumps him into the gutter and buys the apple from Jim (even though he hates apples). He then offers it to Jon for $51 cents.

      Not only is that rude, but eventually you'll get popped in the nose for it.

    37. Re:Good by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Yeah tell that to my golden plated bidet!

      I had ordered one of those, but I sold it before it before it was delivered. Made a cool $23.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    38. Re:Good by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is good. HFT distorts the purpose of a stock exchange, the idea of having shares in a company to help it to capitalize, make it succeed and you earn a share of the profits in return. A company needs partners (the shareholders), not parasites.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    39. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      Those evil HFT's offer the best prices on both bids and asks,

      Unless they are deliberately giving away an endless stream of money, that is literally impossible.

    40. Re:Good by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      It doesn't get rid of day trading in a meaningful way, but it does bring the trading back down to the human level, where it does actually add something to the system. Day trading happens because an asset is perceived as differing from what it's actual value is, while, as I understand it, HFT is essentially manipulating the supply and demand for microseconds to shave off a profit.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    41. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      The problem with your analogy is that while Jim put out an 'ask' for $0.50 there clearly were no 'bids' for $0.50. The best bid was at most $0.49 .. your Jon character is imaginary because nobody was actually looking to buy at $0.50 to begin with. If this wonder trader picked up the Apple for $0.50, then Jim made an extra $0.01.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    42. Re:Good by gbjbaanb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      there was an example of the broken financial system on the news last night.

      Basically Guinea (IIRC) has some mountains that are 60% pure iron, so the (allegedly corrupt) dictator of Guinea gave the mining rights to an (allegedly dodgy) mining company.

      Said company then didn't bother to mine the iron, instead it used the backing of having a huge iron asset to make trades on the markets and made a load of cash that way. Meanwhile the people of Guinea are dirt poor with no hope of even getting jobs digging said iron out of the ground for 10p a day, let alone seeing the extraction of the iron benefit the country's economy.

      This is one way of seeing why a financial market that does nothing but deal within itself is a bad thing. If we changed focus so stock markets were tied to something in the real world (eg Microsoft profits, or Apple growth) no matter how tenuous, that you held for some time because of that real-world item's worth wrt the stock then we'd see stock markets become more investment based and less trade based.

      We might as well base the stock market on TV shows - you could trade on the love life of some TV character without any difference with how financial companies trade today.

    43. Re:Good by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      The movement of share prices correlates strongly (0.8 - 0.9) with either the velocity or the acceleration in the level of margin debt. Share prices are growing because people are borrowing money to buy them. This isn't "real" wealth creation, and it isn't sustainable.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    44. Re:Good by michelcolman · · Score: 2

      Money doesn't get created out of thin air. If HFT firms are making money, other investors are losing exactly that money. For example, patient investors who have put a limit order in and are waiting for someone to take it. They'll be consistently below the "improved" price and their order never gets executed.

      No matter how you try to explain it, the HFT profits are coming from other investors' pockets, the stock market is not magic.

      HFT improves liquidity? That sure explains all the mini-meltdowns we've seen recently. Very liquid indeed.

      And when a stock starts going down, the difference in liquidity is a spread of 20.01 - 20.02 instead of 20.01 - 20.1. Don't expect to sell at a better price thanks to HFT algos. And when a stock goes up, it's the other way around obviously. These algos make money for their owners and that's their only purpose.

    45. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not really how HFT works.
      It is more like Jim has an Apple and he wants 50 cents for it, Jim has been trying to sell this apple for 50 cents for the last half an hour.

      Then the weather report comes in that Apple seeds will become more expensive, Apple seeds are the underlying of Apples. So in the future apples will cost 53 cents. A flash the wonder trader quickly decides to buy the Apple for 50 cents before it get more expensive, then he starts selling this apple for 52 cents.

      If Jon wanted that apple for 50 cents he could have bought it when it was 50 cents.

      I suggest you start playing eve online before you make yourself look stupid.

    46. Re:Good by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      HFT is many things.. gambling is not one of them.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    47. Re:Good by __aacvzh55 · · Score: 1
      HFT is the reason why I bailed out of forex. As a LFT (low frequency trader) i was smoked more often than not. Taxing the system in any form is not the answer as that would have LFT's and independent brokers taxed out of the market - HFTs won't care about any tax they'll just pass it along and write it off. Tra-la-la.

      IMHO, the only way to fix this broken system is to significantly reduce the amount of trades a HFT can perform in a time frame such as 1 second or perhaps a minute. A harkin/defazio tax will only serve to further break an already broken system.

    48. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're just going to throw chaff, I'll say that flash prevented Geoff from buying the apple from Jim for a dollar and giving it to Jon just because.

      The simple fact is that if you put two people in a room who want to make a transaction, they will do so if both are reasonable. Both lose if someone inserts themselves into the deal and bleeds a few cents out. The HFT make money somehow, and since they DO play a zero sum game, that means they make it by causing others not to.

    49. Re:Good by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      there was an example of the broken financial system on the news last night.

      Basically Guinea (IIRC) has some mountains that are 60% pure iron, so the (allegedly corrupt) dictator of Guinea gave the mining rights to an (allegedly dodgy) mining company.

      Said company then didn't bother to mine the iron, instead it used the backing of having a huge iron asset to make trades on the markets and made a load of cash that way. Meanwhile the people of Guinea are dirt poor with no hope of even getting jobs digging said iron out of the ground for 10p a day, let alone seeing the extraction of the iron benefit the country's economy.

      This is one way of seeing why a financial market that does nothing but deal within itself is a bad thing. If we changed focus so stock markets were tied to something in the real world (eg Microsoft profits, or Apple growth) no matter how tenuous, that you held for some time because of that real-world item's worth wrt the stock then we'd see stock markets become more investment based and less trade based.

      We might as well base the stock market on TV shows - you could trade on the love life of some TV character without any difference with how financial companies trade today.

      That is a problem with the mining contract (and possibly the corrupt dictator) - not the financial system.

    50. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 0

      HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system.

      Shouldn't you have to show first that there's something wrong before you spout bullshit about how broken the "system" is? Remember HFT means "High Frequency Trading". It doesn't mean whatever you think is wrong with the world or perhaps with finance today.

      We need to really start to recognise that profit isn't all and long term stewardship of our instituitions and systems is key to our long term quality of live.

      I think we ought to start by getting clueless people away from these institutions and systems. You can't have long term stewardship when idiots are meddling in things they don't understand.

      As I see it, there should be a rule of "live and let live". If someone's system or institution isn't causing harm, then don't mess with them, even if they're rich.

      It's also worth noting that the HFT gold rush is already ending. You better hurry or there won't be anything to complain about.

    51. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless they are deliberately giving away an endless stream of money, that is literally impossible.

      This from the person that doesnt even know that there is a difference between bid prices and ask prices. It is only within this difference that the HFT's can make a profit, and they can only do so if they reduce that spread.

      Until you have an argument that acknowledges that there are two prices, we can only presume that you dont have any clue at all what you are talking about. For the record, the amount of peer reviewed research on the subject is legion. Perhaps instead of declaring it impossible, you should educate yourself instead of just being a denier.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    52. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A market maker is someone who is willing to buy and sell any product for a pretty good price. He makes money on his 'spread' the difference between his buy and sell price. It is important for him to be extremely quick because any kind of latency will put him at risk of having the wrong price at that time.

      In most option markets (both stock and financial) there are only very few market makers, maybe one, two or three. A market maker is so important for market that exchanges offer them rebates on transaction costs as long as they maintain a tight market in one or several markets (less interesting markets are bundled with the more interesting markets by the exchange with such a deal).

      If a market maker cannot be in the market it often means the buy and sell prices for 99% of the options are empty. Only a few orders for a few options remain. That means it becomes impossible for traders to trade directly a specific option they want to buy or sell. They will have to put up an order, set its price and wait for another interesting party to be their counter party.

    53. Re:Good by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      I then went on to sell it for another $10 more. Just a few more trades like that, and I'll have enough money to buy a gold plated bidet.

    54. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 0

      If you thing HFT reacts to *news*, then you would be the stupid one. HFT reacts to trades. They don't yet have AIs that can watch the news live and make a trade decision based on it in milliseconds.

      Jon did want that Apple at 50 cents and tried to buy it but flash had low latency connections half a rack closer.

    55. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      By the same logic, retail is theft.

      I mean, if Amazon is making money, their suppliers must be losing money. Right? You were totally willing to go straight to each supplier, doing more work shopping around and signing up with multiple payment systems, and then pay the same for worse processing & dispatch.
      Or were you willing to pay for convenience?

      Anyway, the people hurt by HFTs are mostly old-school brokers, and they're hurt because they they charged wide spreads and large commissions, to cover the cost of their inefficient risk management. And also because they could, because it was an almost closed shop and there was little competition. HFTs take their business by offering a better price, which they can afford to do because they use automation to manage their risk and inventory more efficiently.

      If you're a retail customer (rather than a day trader) or you have a pension, you benefit from this.

    56. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? How can a tax that is percentage based (0.03%), favor more expensive shares? Clearly, one of us missed something.

    57. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      The simple fact is that if you put two people in a room who want to make a transaction, they will do so if both are reasonable.

      No sir, thats not a 'fact'

      If you put two people in a room, they only trade if its mutually beneficial. That, my friend, is the fact. The HFT only comes into play when those two people do not see eye to eye.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    58. Re:Good by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      No. That's how normal futures trading works. HFT works exactly as the parent described. In your scenario there is no need for HFT.

      The problem now is that all of the major players use super fast systems (to enable HFT) so they are now on an even playing field and can't easily bump each other so even normal trade is happening at high speeds.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    59. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know that the flash crash had nothing to do with HFT, do you?

      The original cause was a large investment firm dumping a huge amount of stock so quick that the market could not absorb it.
      At the same time the exchange had a fault where price information was delayed by several minutes instead of the normal 100s of microseconds.

      Then the market makers had absorbed so much of this dumping that they now had a very large position that they now had to sell, so they stopped their buy orders.

      That is pretty much all that happened, it stabilised quickly again once market data feed became normal speed and the positions where cleared away in the next couple of minutes. Later that day some of the insane (completely wrong prices or huge volumes where one or even both parties would have hit their risk limits) trades where reversed by the exchange.

    60. Re:Good by dywolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      buying 100 million shares in london and immediately selling the same in tokyo to exploit a 1 ms diffrence in ping that causes the price to be 0.01 different in both locations to eek out a tiny bit of profit that was NOT DUE TO ANY ACTUAL CHANGE IN STOCK VALUE BUT DUE TO PING TIME.

      buying a few thousand shares at a time and immediately canceling the buy order in order to fish out normal trader's sell limits (which are hidden and theoreatically secret from the buyer) in order to remove them from the market

      multiple HFT caused viscious cycles that cause the market to be extremely volatile and nearly crash...

      seriously, if you need it explained in this day and age, you're just a troll or a shill for an HFT company.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    61. Re:Good by um...+Lucas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems far from a "the rich are too rich" type of tax. It would apply evenly to a hedge fund manager or a 20 year old making their first IRA contibution. A 0.03% tax would go unfelt by that 20 year old and it would also go mostly unnoticed by a Warren Buffett. Heck it would go unnoticed by a trader sitting at home. The rules would be the same across the board, but someone executing a hundred trades per second would be the only one who would feel an impact.

    62. Re:Good by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      And you are a douche.

      See how I did that? I made a statement like it was a fact. It's not a problem with my statement though, probably a problem with the lack of a truth filter on this forum software. A technicality so to speak.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    63. Re:Good by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      I don't see anything erroneous with the link.

      HFT is implemented by people. It is not autonomous and it didn't pop into existence by itself. It was created by humans with the short-sighted goal of maximizing profit with no consideration of the long-term stability of the system it's interfaced with.

      You are right that humans can't make rational judgements in milliseconds - that's why humans create machines to do it for them. Although I'd argue that humans have great difficulty making rational judgements no matter how much time you give them; there's been quite a bit of study showing that people will make poor decisions especially when money is involved. Creating automated systems that operate faster than their caretakers can react, for example...
      =Smidge=

    64. Re:Good by coofercat · · Score: 1

      Or to put it another way...

      Jim has an apple. He calls out "who will give me 50 cents for this lovely apple". Jon likes apples, so heads head over. Just as he raises his hand to call out, Flash the Wonder Trader runs down to the market, buys an apple for 30 cents, comes back in and says "I've got an apple for 45 cents". Jon buys his apple for 45 cents, and Jim is left with his over-priced apple rotting on his desk.

      I'm not saying HFT is all good, but it does some positive things for you, the little guy (Jon in this example), as well as some bad things too. It also does good/bad things for the big guy (Jim in this example).

    65. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope. There are hell of a lot of real 0.50 bids overall. Consider it as the standard price for apples that everyone uses. The hft guy knows this, buys everything at 0.50 and sells them back at 0.51. Since he has fatter pipe than you you won't ever get to buy anything before him. Now, how exactly does this benefit anyone? The seller gets rid of his stuff 0.01 seconds before he would otherwise? Oh my gosh! That's hugely important and makes the market at least 1000 times more effective!

    66. Re:Good by dywolf · · Score: 2

      normal traders dont trade volumes in the hundreds of millions of shares per day, nor do they trade at fractions of a cent per share difference.

      moreover, the speedbump should not just be on completed orders, since over hlaf of the HFT volume is buy and sell orders that are then canceled and never completed: the microtax should be on all buy and sell orders, even if canceled.

      that alone would stop the majority of the bogus HFT trading and restore vast amounts of confidence in the market while barely even registering on normal traders activities.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    67. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think about it from this perspective. What are HFT trader contributing to society? Nothing. What are they getting from society? Lots of cash (well, some of them). To anyone concerned with having a merit based economy (which should include Ayn Rand followers) this is bad. Likewise, since the wealthy can gain money much faster than the poor using HFT, this should look bad to anyone concerned with maintaining an egalitarian economy (which should include even the most Socialist Karl Marx followers). No matter where you sit on the political spectrum HFT should be considered bad. The only people who don't think its bad either profit from it, or are idiots.

    68. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HFT happens in the microseconds before any humans have a chance to see eye to eye.
      It adds no value to real, human markets.

    69. Re:Good by um...+Lucas · · Score: 5, Informative

      a 0.03% isn't a tax per share it's a tax on the dollar value of the final trade when executed - whether it's one share at $100,000 per share or 100,000 shares at $1 per share, the tax would be the same. There'd be no incentive by anyone to favor more expensive shares over cheaper ones.

    70. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'eke', it's fucking 'eke'. Quit saying 'eek'.

      AC

    71. Re:Good by dywolf · · Score: 1

      HFTs hurt the market.
      they do not trade on value.
      they do not trade on confidence.
      they do not trade on any kind of rational investment criteria.

      they increase volatility.
      they decrease confidence.
      they cut out normal investors who actually care about the products or companies the are attempting to invest in.
      they abuse the rules of the market to cut out investors by finding their hidden/secret limits (playing poker with marked cards).
      they are prone to creating run away bubbles.
      a market that becomes dominated by HFT's becomes an echo chamber preaching to itself.

      they are bad for the market, period.
      rockoon is a shill.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    72. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are conflating the purpose of stocks (which you described pretty nicely) with stock exchanges (whose purpose it is to facilitate trades of stock).

    73. Re:Good by dpilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I like what you've said, but let's phrase this in a simpler, more basic way.

      Once upon a time, I thought that the stock market was supposed to be a mechanism for investing in companies - a way for them to generate money to fund their real-world growth. I suspect that some of that is still happening, but from what I can see the stock market has largely turned into something else.

      To me, these days the stock market looks more like a sanctioned gambling parlor. Even IPOs, which one would think of as the ultimate in funding growth of a new company, are at least partially viewed as a way for the founders to cash in. (or out)

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    74. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there's always an asshole who thinks the dollar amount should be higher, when it's not his pocketbook.

      someone should just knock your teeth out and be done with it. and when you go to the oral surgeon for a quote, the rest of us should be allowed to sit on the sidelines and chant for the doctor to stick you with a real nice bill.

      and when you get all those fake teeth put in, we'll take a lead pipe, and knock them out again.

    75. Re:Good by dywolf · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Flash_Crash

      The joint report "portrayed a market so fragmented and fragile that a single large trade could send stocks into a sudden spiral," that a large mutual fund firm "chose to sell a big number of futures contracts using a computer program that essentially ended up wiping out available buyers in the market," that as a result high-frequency firms "were also aggressively selling the E-mini contracts," contributing to rapid price declines.[12]

      The joint report also noted "'HFTs began to quickly buy and then resell contracts to each other — [b][u]generating a 'hot-potato' volume effect as the same positions were passed rapidly back and forth.[/b][/u]'"[12]

      The combined sales by Waddell and high-frequency firms quickly drove "the E-mini price down 3% in just four minutes."[12] As prices in the futures market fell, there was a spillover into the equities markets where "the liquidity in the market evaporated because the automated systems used by most firms to keep pace with the market paused" and scaled back their trading or withdrew from the markets altogether.[12]

      The joint report then noted that "Automatic computerized traders on the stock market shut down as they detected the sharp rise in buying and selling."[40] As computerized high-frequency traders exited the stock market, the resulting lack of liquidity "...caused shares of some prominent companies like Procter & Gamble and Accenture to trade down as low as a penny or as high as $100,000."[40]

      [b][u]While some firms exited the market, high-frequency firms that remained in the market exacerbated price declines because they "'escalated their aggressive selling' during the downdraft. [/b][/u]
      --
      Boom. Headshot.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    76. Re:Good by macson_g · · Score: 2

      They are not charging for the exchange, they live off the spread between bid and ask. (OK, most of them. But I only ever seen commission taken in the UK).
      So the tax would be, in the end, paid by the traveller ("long term investor"), and not by the exchange shop ("high-frequency trader").

    77. Re:Good by dywolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Flash_Crash

      The joint report "portrayed a market so fragmented and fragile that a single large trade could send stocks into a sudden spiral," that a large mutual fund firm "chose to sell a big number of futures contracts using a computer program that essentially ended up wiping out available buyers in the market," that as a result high-frequency firms "were also aggressively selling the E-mini contracts," contributing to rapid price declines.[12]

      The joint report also noted "'HFTs began to quickly buy and then resell contracts to each other — generating a 'hot-potato' volume effect as the same positions were passed rapidly back and forth.'"[12]

      The combined sales by Waddell and high-frequency firms quickly drove "the E-mini price down 3% in just four minutes."[12] As prices in the futures market fell, there was a spillover into the equities markets where "the liquidity in the market evaporated because the automated systems used by most firms to keep pace with the market paused" and scaled back their trading or withdrew from the markets altogether.[12]

      The joint report then noted that "Automatic computerized traders on the stock market shut down as they detected the sharp rise in buying and selling."[40] As computerized high-frequency traders exited the stock market, the resulting lack of liquidity "...caused shares of some prominent companies like Procter & Gamble and Accenture to trade down as low as a penny or as high as $100,000."[40]

      While some firms exited the market, high-frequency firms that remained in the market exacerbated price declines because they "'escalated their aggressive selling' during the downdraft.
      --
      Boom. Headshot.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    78. Re:Good by um...+Lucas · · Score: 5, Informative

      High frequency traders like to say that they are helping the markets by providing liquidity. THat's false - it's fake liquidity. They're not market makers who must post bids and asks at all times, it's fake liquidity that's only there when its convienenty. As soon as there's a spike or crash, that liquidity vaporizes. Same with your bids and asks that you're pointing out - a HUGE percentage of HFT orders are cancelled within microseconds of being placed - those bids and asks might look like they're there, but most of the time, they're not there at all.

      High frequency trading is one of the few activities out there that trully provides zero benefit for society, and in fact creates expenses that the rest of us have to pay for. Exchanges need to beef up their computer systems in order to handle all the volume that could be unleashed by the HFT crowd; that's an expense that's getting passed on to all of us, not just them. The extra liquidity promises are false. And the whole system can fall apart and wreak havoc, either on the markets as a whole or to participants, just due to shoddy programming (think flash crash, think Knight Capital). Meanwhile, it prevents real price discovery from occuring, no one can discerne which bids are real bids by interested investors versus which ones might disappear the second you try to fill them.

      I'm sorry. I'll defend derivatitves, hedge funds, mortgage backed securities and nearly anything else in the capital markets, but high frequency trading is not anywhere on that list.

    79. Re:Good by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system.

      No, Tom Harkin is the symptom of a deeply broken system. He exempted many fraudulent snake oil alternative treatments from FDA requirements for efficacy.

      Which is odd, because the real treatments are forced under it and slowed down, probably costing more lives through delay than saved.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    80. Re:Good by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is certainly an argument as to whether market makers are really required but, in practice, if they're not there, then I can't see how there can be any more trust in the stock markets than there is trading in ebay. It's essential that when I buy I know that the stocks will be delivered and when I sell I know that I'll be paid.

      That has nothing to do with market makers. The safeguard is the clearing house.

    81. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure they do. When the AP's twitter feed got hacked and started posting hoax stories about Obama being killed, there was a flash crash faster than any day trader could actually read the feed and react to it.

      I mean they also react to trades, but having a piece of computer software do more than one thing is hardly unusual.

    82. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's a problem with a financial system that has decided that speculation should be more profitable than investment.

    83. Re:Good by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Except it really isn't the problem you think it is. The people of Guinea in your example will be dirt poor no matter what. If there was real value in extracting the iron someone would do it. The fact that its not being extracted means in real terms there are cheaper sources of iron sufficient to meet demand. If someone started extracting the iron, now the price would just fall through the floor. To keep the operation going wages for minors would be even more depressed, and the local would most likely have to also cope with the knock on environmental effects of the mining. Mostly they'd be worse off.

      What Dodgy Mining Co. is really trading on the market is potential access to iron ore in the future when the other sources man no longer be available. If the resource is developed in the future it will be in a less competitive market prices will be higher, wages will likely be higher, tax revenues greater. The people of Guinea will get more wealth from it. Financial markets are about futures not about today.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    84. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with your analogy

      The problem with your analogy is that you're wrong.

      Flash the wonder trader gets the apple because his bid arrives half a microsecond before anyone else's.

      Furthermore, flash the wonder trader relies on the ebay principle, where people want things that are in demand and will pay more for things just because someone is bidding against them. The funny thing is that part of the reason they're now not making money is that they've so worn everyone out with their fake "tasting" bids, so everyone now sees a storm of random bids as "ha ha those silly flash traders" rather than as a signal to buy or sell.

      Finally, the only way flash the wonder trader makes any money is if Jon was actually willing to pay $0.50125 for the apple, so they can profit. In fact, their fake offer to Jim for an apple for $0.50125 got to him a few microseconds before Jon's ask of $0.50, but when he went to get an apple flash the wonder trader said "lol sorry sold out" and started looking for someone selling for less. In your analogy if nobody had been willing to pay more than $0.49, the HFTer just lost a penny.

      Without the middle man, Jon would have gotten a good deal on the apple, Jim would have gotten what he wanted for the apple, and it all would have happened without the help of any "liquidity suppliers".

    85. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Computer chess programs are the reason why I bailed out of chess. As a human I was smoked more often than not, etc. etc.

      captcha: heckle

    86. Re:Good by the_other_chewey · · Score: 2

      That's not what's happening. You are being front-runned.

      ...the peer-reviewed research says different.

      Ok, then cite it please.

    87. Re:Good by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      If someone's system or institution isn't causing harm, then don't mess with them

      The same wisdom that said that CDO's, CDS's and other three letter scams shouldn't be regulated. How did that work out?

    88. Re:Good by um...+Lucas · · Score: 1

      Your example is just regular trading, not high frequency trading. There is frequently no human involvement at all in HFT. It's just scanning bids and asks and offering just a hair above each.

      Johnny wants to buy an apple and is willing to pay up to 51 cents for it, and Chris is wiling to sell one for 50 cents. Chris goes reaching into his pocket to take out 50 cents, but while hes in the process of doing so, Mike the HFT guy jumps inline and puts in an order for 10 apples for $5.01, only takes one of the apples and sells it to Chris for 51 cents. Now the seller moves on to sell more of his Apples, and sees offers for 100 apples for $50.20, another 100 apples for $50.30, and so forth. So he keeps going to each person who'se putting out an offer only to find that every changes their mind right before he knocks on the door.

      I could keep running down the road with this analogy, but it's not really worth it.

    89. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It will only reduce transactions in which the expected gain is less than 0.03%. I think it has to be higher than that to really discourage high frequency trading.

    90. Re:Good by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      not the financial system

      The "financial system" allowed them to claim iron underground as a valuable asset even if there was no plans or way to monetize it. The people giving this company money on this basis done fucked up, pets.com style, no matter how you look at it.

      If the "financial system" is there to separate fools and their money, then it's working as designed.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    91. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't you have to show first that there's something wrong before you spout bullshit about how broken the "system" is?

      Why? What ever happened to free speech? People can't bitch unless they have the approval from khallow, regulator of the Internet?

      I think we ought to start by getting clueless people away from these institutions and systems.

      Shouldn't YOU first show us what's wrong with random pseudo anonymous strangers bitching on the Internet before you spout bullshit on what we ought to do?

      As I see it, there should be a rule of "live and let live". If someone's system or institution isn't causing harm, then don't mess with them, even if they're rich.

      So let's apply this to the OP.

      Is he a system or institution? Nope, he's just an individual.

      Is he rich? Probably not, since he's bitching about the rich.

      So what possible harm can he do? Why won't YOU leave him alone and let him bitch?

    92. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're making money by being a leach. They only make money if the whole transaction was going to happen anyway, and by inserting themselves in between and splitting the difference between the net buyer and net seller, they are suctioning off money without adding any value to the equation. And no, they aren't adding liquidity to the market. If they hold on to a stock for more than a second or two, they've screwed up. The trade would have happened just fine without them in the middle, and the net buyer and seller wouldn't even notice the extra fraction of a second the trade would have taken without them.

      " I see the HFT offering bids and asks that are better than everyone elses" - where did you come up with this shit? The whole method of the HFT is to identify stocks that have existing offers that are lower than existing bids.

    93. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you make a trading limit, they would just split into shell companies. The tax would be on the cost of the trade(buy or sell price). They make money by the difference between the buy and sell. With the tax, the difference as to be that much wider (at least .06% in this case) to make a profit. They can't just pass it on.

    94. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem with your analogy is that while Jim put out an 'ask' for $0.50 there clearly were no 'bids' for $0.50. The best bid was at most $0.49 .. your Jon character is imaginary because nobody was actually looking to buy at $0.50 to begin with. If this wonder trader picked up the Apple for $0.50, then Jim made an extra $0.01.

      Again, you're an idiot. HFT DO NOT buy stocks at a higher price than anybody else and then magically sell it for even more. They buy stocks at a LOWER price than what they either know or have a very good reason expect to be able to sell at in a very short period of time.

    95. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Wrong, absolutely wrong. The key fact of the story is that the 'tech bubble' component of HFT is over, many firms have left the business, and HFT can now evolve into a useful, stable part of the overall market. HFT is best seen as implementing the higher-order harmonics on the overall rhythm (for lack of a better word - it's early!) of the global market system, which is essentially a scale-free system. IOW, the markets ebb and flow - big waves, tides, little waves, and ripples. HFT smooths out the ripples as it reacts almost instantly to new information, and then reacts to its own influence, and then reacts to its own reaction until the differences are invisible even to HFT algorithms.

      It's true, at first the algorithms were too primitive, the range of algorithms was too narrow so quite often there wasn't a compensating trade for each trade. HFT happened to catch some big waves, and reacted too dramatically in some cases, and lots of money was made by a few folks. And there was a tech bubble aspect to it. But now for every HFT trading algorithm catching some tiny fluctuation, there is more likely to be another trading algorithm trying to catch the fluctuation created by that algorithm, etc. And you now see the result. The entire global market system is now remarkably 'macro' - trading in almost any company's stock (or bonds, or whatever for that matter) follows very closely the macroeconomic status of the global economy. That is very much the beneficial result of improved market transparency and HFT. The only times when a company's stock varies from the macroeconomic base is when there is new information.

      Yes, in the early days HFT undoubtedly exacerbated or in some cases created momentary (an interesting operative word in this context) glitches in the market - and also in all cases I can think of offhand, almost immediately corrected itself within a few _minutes_ - not days or weeks as in the bad old days. IOW HFT was self-correcting in those instances - a fact that was not noticed by the media, which knows nothing abaout anything AFAICT. And there was a tech bubble, as the earliest folks made a heap o' cash. (Just like Google, and many early dotcoms, only some of which survived.) But this article points out those days are gone, a lot of players have left the market either because they went bust or because it's no longer worth their effort. Note that 10 years after a tech bubble bursts, that market is essentially always four or more times as large as at the peak of the bubble. So keep an eye out - 10 years from now every major trading firm will have their little HFT system running, managing their extreme short term risk as a regular part of their business.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    96. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wanna bet? :D Without speculative currency trading, the apparent value of a currency becomes disconnected from the actual value. Thus you see in countries with currency controls (e.g. Venezuela) the 'black market' value of a US dollar is several times that of the 'official' price. Speculative currency trading is what allows the liquids in different buckets to flow to their equilibrium levels. And HFT trading just makes that happen faster. I responded in more length about HFT to an earlier comment, which IMHO makes the case for HFT (now that the tech bubble aspect is over) as a useful, even essential part of everyday market equilibration.

      IOW without speculative currency trading, when you go to the country next door you will have no idea what the price of goods is. (And as the Euro debacle demonstrates, sovereign countries need to have their own currency in order to have a way to balance their economies. Devaluing a currency is akin to a 'store-wide sale' for a country. To a good first approximation, a currency _is_ sovereignty.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    97. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Something you (and the Senator's proposal) have forgotten is that you can use HFT to manipulate the market without actually holding the stock at all.

      Many of the recent HFT driven market surge/crashes have not come from actual trades, but by the market being flooded with millions of orders which are cancelled almost as soon as they are issued (before anyone can act on them.) This may be an arms race between algos, or two algos creating an unintended feedback loop, or it might be an occasional "raid" by market manipulation when the conditions are right. But it also shows that the pricing is increasingly being dominated by false asks/offers.

      So the HFT tax needs to be levied against asks/offers themselves, not against the subsequent trades. That would also specifically punish HFTs without hurting big institutional traders, or small home day-traders.

    98. Re:Good by jythie · · Score: 2

      I think the poster was referring to the idea of a tax per share rather then a tax per value, so 100 shares of $100 each would be taxed lower then 1000 shares of $10 each, which would encourage companies to have lower volumes of more expensive shares, potentially wiping out penny stocks.

    99. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Retail makes buying the product much more convenient. It provides a way to buy a product without a huge investment of time. It provides a way for the wholesaler to sell all of their product to a small number of buyers using a small number of transactions. HFT on the other hand at best shaves a second or 2 off of the time it takes to sell a stock. It doesn't offer any or the benefits that retail does, only the cost. If you wanted a true analogy with retail, HFT is like someone who sits at the door of the seller or intercepts every phone call to the seller, and forces all of the transactions to go through him. The buyer still has to do exactly what they would have done without the HFT, but pays more without any added convenience.

    100. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      You understand incorrectly. HFT is doing exactly the same thing as day trading (well, not exactly, but close enough for this purpose), only faster and without sentiment - day traders, being mostly men, are notoriously emotionally driven rather than methodical. HFT can not manipulate supply and demand, only respond to very small differences that a human can't respond to quickly enough. It's working on a higher frequency, i.e. a higher order harmonic, of the global market. HFT has gone a long way toward making the stock market fit much more closely to the ideal 'perfect information' model that economists talk about. One result is that almost any stock now follows the perceived macroeconomic status of the global markets very closely, in the absence of a particular event WRT that stock.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    101. Re:Good by leonardluen · · Score: 2

      but the shareholders are the parasites. the shareholders want to bleed the company dry of every ounce of profit for their own gain. the longer they hold the shares the more profit they expect and demand to bleed from the company. most even long term holders don't buy the shares because they care about the company, they buy them because they want to make money...same reason as the HFT's only on a different timescale.

      the company on the other hand really doesn't care if the shareholders are long term. if the HFT's are willing to buy up any new shares that they issue then the company would be more than happy to sell it to them. the company honestly doesn't care who buys the shares (long term holders, day traders, or HFTs) as long as someone buys them.

    102. Re:Good by Evtim · · Score: 1

      You completely ruined your post with the second sentence. With it, you revolted 95% of the human race..."for everyone", not just for numero uno - u commie or something, buddy?

      Global empathy and altruism are such a rare comodity....although paradoxically, if one realises how connected our lives are today, that the whole world is really, fianlly, one big village then the global empathy just follows! Yesterday it was your family, group or country - it did not matter what the Chinesse emperror did to the peasant in Europe. Today it matters, so we just need to expand those nice human qualities we reserve for family and people who really influence our lives, to the whole of humanity. So simple...

    103. Re:Good by jythie · · Score: 1

      Well, that gets into the entire question of, is high speed trading causing negative economic effects? It is a non-trivial question, significant research and debate are going on about it and, to a degree, will continue to go on since often it comes down to different priorities. HFT does stuff to an economy, anything that redistributes massive amounts of wealth does. Who it helps, who it turns, to what degrees, and relative value of the people involved, is not all that clear.

      Having said that, in theory at least this tax is designed to address the perceived increase in market volatility that HFT involves. So public policy makers are asserting that (a) HFT results in economic instability that impacts people not involved in HFT itself and (b) that this instability is something that the economy on the whole would benefit from curtailing. There is an implicit (c) that is along the lines that the people benefiting from HFT are not the ones baring the consequences of its impact, so like any situation where you have a "Group A preforms act B which benefits them but costs group C" the government is pondering if some checks need to be put on A+B to protect C.

    104. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 3, Informative

      Front-running is a separate issue, which can happen and has happened at every trading rate. It's esentially analogous to insider information about trades, and it's illegal. It has nothing per se to do with HFT. HFT is only responding to apparent differences between value and price at a higher rate than regular trading, and using volumes to make up for the relatively small differences involved. The result of HFT (now that the bubble has burst) is just to smooth out the ripples - the 'quantum noise', if you will. I'm not sure we're down to that level of detail yet - but the minimum price difference in a given currency, e.g. 1 cent in US trading, amounts to the 'quantum of money', so there is likely to be a continuous random fluctuation of +/- 1 cent, and a bit less fluctuation of +/- 2 cents, and so on. 'Quantum of Money' would make a great book title. :)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    105. Re:Good by usuallylost · · Score: 2

      What concerns me about this method of controlling this is the compliance costs. Whenever there is a tax there are forms to be filled out, reports to be filed and audits to be done. Which frequently ends up costing vast sums of money. Well if these brokerages spend all of this money complying with a tiny tax to stop an undesirable behavior they are going to pass that on to customers. Now I personally don't do any stock trading. I do have a 401(k) plan at work that includes stock funds. Which make large trades on a fairly regular basis. So in effect to stop these people from abusing the system my pension plan is going to have a lower rate of return due to paying this tax and paying the compliance costs.

      It seems to me that a far better way to get rid of high frequency trading is to just make it illegal or issue standards for its implementation.

    106. Re:Good by satch89450 · · Score: 2

      There is a benefit that no one has mentioned yet: HFT can cause the market for a stock to oscillate out of control very, very quickly, and that oscillation can disrupt the trading in the stock. The "circuit breakers" the NYSE put in to damp out-of-control oscillations are pretty much defeated by HFT. Further, HFT disassociates the value of the stock itself from the perceived value created by short-term movement in the market, and so affects the capitalization of a company trying to do business. HFT is also a way to quick ruin, if the algorithms used are not tuned carefully enough -- and particularly if two trading algorithms get into harmonic resonance: think Galloping Gertie, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 1940.

    107. Re:Good by operagost · · Score: 1

      We need to really start to recognise that profit isn't all

      Let's see how you feel about that when the company you work for is short on cash and decides to withhold your paycheck in the interest of "long term stewardship" of the institution. I think you'd find your profit to be everything.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    108. Re:Good by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Maybe that could be a step in the right direction. Rather than insisting on this broken trading model, perhaps people need to take a step back and think of the process again as investment.

      I use the word with all of its seemingly old-fashioned freight implying commitment on both sides of the transaction. The investor is committing his funds as an investment in the future prosperity of a company, and that company undertakes to reward that investment with a suitable dividend, perhaps in addition to other perquisites. The current situation where the focus is entirely on trying to game buying and selling rewards no-one except stockbrokers, some of whom might otherwise have to go and find honest work.

    109. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've been to a few countries with currency controls and agree with the "black market" values being higher.

      I've attributed this to the "premium" the sellers are willing to take to bypass their currency restriction laws vs the "fair price discovery" process.
      In this case, the citizens are simply trying to bypass their currency restrictions and willing to pay a premium to do so.

      I dont see how this relates to speculative currency markets?

      One country institutes currency restrictions (China, Barbados, etc) and typically limit the dollar amount locals can convert. If you want to exceed these limits you do it in the black market by paying a premium to encourage others to trade with you.

      Its also a great way to pass off counterfeit currency as you have tourists who think they are getting a deal (higher rates then the banks) and have little knowledge on what illegitimate currency looks like.

    110. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      If market equilibration is so essential, then why don't we let our government run this? (*)
      What we see now is that random entities participate in the process in a quite random way, leading to instabilities and collapse of markets.

      Let's take out some of the inpredictibility by introducing this tax.

      Answer to (*): they will, after we have introduced the tax.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    111. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HFT algorithms rarely buy anything unless they can immediately sell it again.

      If a stock's liquidity is poor to start with, HFT programs won't suddenly start buying and selling that stock. They'll only get involved when liquidity is already good enough for them to have a reasonable chance of getting a buyer for what they just bought.

      They don't increase liquidity unless liquidity is already past some threshold where it doesn't need the help.

    112. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 2

      All that means is that HFT implements the 'efficient market with perfect information' more rapidly and correctly - which is a good thing. It means that prices for all goods in all markets are more likely to be close to their 'real' clearing price, regardless of vendor or currency.

      Note that when you as a small retail investor buy or sell any reasonably well-traded stock through your broker, such as Schwab, you are no longer actually putting an order on the floor of the market - you are dealing with the broker itself. The broker keeps a small supply of that stock on its books (think of this as capacitance, if you are an EE), and resolves your trade within its books. If enough small trades add together to make it useful, necessary and/or algorithmically advantageous, Schwab will actually (instantly, automatically using its own HFT system) push a trade into the global system. (IANA broker, but this is certainly how I'd do it if I were Schwab, and I do know that small trades are handled internally by brokers.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    113. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, the 1990s automation called and said you're wrong.

      News parsing is something for highschool kids to write these days.

    114. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Yes. And not only retail & pension funds - the entire market is moved closer to the ideal efficient market with perfect information.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    115. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No more market makers on an option market, and you get a completely empty market, where most options aren't traded at all anymore. Of the options that are traded you get very wide spread.

      Market makers are there to provide liquidity and they get payed based on their spread and how many trades they do. I've seen what happens to an option market without a market maker and it isn't pretty, there is a reason why market makers get discount from exchanges in exchange for being in the market at all times.

    116. Re:Good by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      While waiting that indeterminate time until iron is more expensive, most of Guinea starves to death.

      So there's fewer workers in this future. And they'll earn even higher wages because they'll be in demand.

      Until the Dodgy Mining Co. decides it's cheaper to import thousands of Thai people for half the local salary.

      More money for Dodgy Mining Co.

      Yay! Or something.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    117. Re:Good by locofungus · · Score: 1

      No. This isn't how it works.

      Johnny wants to buy an apple at up to 49p. Chris wants to sell an apple at no less than 52p.

      They're both sitting there doing nothing.

      Flash the wonder trader decides that Johnny and Chris are both prepared to negotiate by up to 2p on what they say is their best offer.
      So Flash the wonder trader puts in a bid of 50p and an ask of 51p. This, because it's a better offer, sits ahead of both Chris's and Johnny's trades. Johnny decides that while Chris's 52p wasn't good enough, he'll take Flash's 51p offer to sell and Chris decides that while Johnny's 49p wasn't good enough, Flash's 50p offer to buy is good enough.

      Flash pockets the 1p and he's happy.

      Note that Flash can actually make the market work - Both Johnny and Chris are sitting there unwilling to make the first move towards a compromise - each is thinking that if they move first then the other party is going to think they're desperate and hold out until they move even further.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    118. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been several stock flash crashes in the last years, most of them due to HTF algos gone haywire. They didn't get any publicity in the media though, since they didn't involve SPY, just various stocks. Check with Nanex for details, they have some lovely tick-by-tick postmortems showing algo patterns.

    119. Re:Good by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      But how are the tax supposed to work? HFT does not generate more trades than "normal" trading, what it does increase in loads and loads though is orders. If we pre-HFT had a ratio of 100:1 between number of orders to trades the ratio is somewhere near 10000:1 in the post-HFT world.

    120. Re:Good by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

      HFT is not gambling. If it were, people wouldn't do it. If it's anything it's min-maxing.

    121. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe I'm missing something but in that scenario I'd rather be "punished" with the $300 tax on my 100x$10,000 trade

    122. Re:Good by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      Yes they have, there are several news feeds that are directly aimed at beeing fed into HFT-systems.

    123. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It brings liquidity, ...

      This is false, and people need to stop repeating it. HFT relies on buying shares that the algorithm thinks someone else is buying, marking it up a cent or fraction of a cent and selling it on. This means that there was already a buyer for shares, meaning the shares were already liquid. It does not add any liquidity that wasn't already there.

    124. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1, Interesting

      NOT DUE TO ANY ACTUAL CHANGE IN STOCK VALUE BUT DUE TO PING TIME.

      Wrong. this is no different than arbitrage has been for centuries, only faster. Baron von Rothschild used this to make money on the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo, since his messengers were hours faster than the official royal messengers.

      The 'vicious cycles' were due to the early primitive nature of HFT algorithms, and the fact that there weren't enough of them (so often the HFT was on one side of a spread, and not on the other => big money transfer). TFA shows that the bubble has burst, and HFT is now going to evolve and perhaps already has evolved to a useful, stable part of the overall market. Now when one HFT senses an opportunity and makes a trade that influences the market, another HFT is likely to spot the ripple and make a countering trade. So HFT now just damps the ripples.

      I could say that there is an effect analogous to the 'vacuum energy' of quantum mechanics. Let's define 1c in US trading as the 'quantum of money' - the minimum price difference. Then there is always going to be a random fluctuation of +/- 1c at very close to the maximum trading rate for HFT. and there will be random fluctuations at +/- 2c at some fraction of that maximum rate - probably 1/2 the rate. It will follow an inverse power law distribution, so there will always be a 1/N probability of a fluctuation of +/- N cents in the minimum trading period - call it 1 usec. So the distribution will be on the order of T/N for T= a given period of microseconds. This means that there is a tiny, but real, probability _from pure chance_ that a price difference will be large. But it will also be countered, and damped, within a small amount of time - you saw that several times, as sudden market errors were compensated for within a few minutes, and the market basically continued on as normal.

      Your bit about buy cancellation has nothing really to do with HFT.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    125. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is frequently no human involvement at all in HFT. It's just scanning bids and asks and offering just a hair above each."

      What you're referring to there is diming which is but one part of HFT. Hitting is another - catching effectively stale market quotes before they can be pulled. Layering would seem to be related to the other part of your post.

    126. Re:Good by ggraham412 · · Score: 2

      What about the better bid/ask spreads? That helps everybody in the market - especially the small mom and pop investors who don't have to see a stock price move as far to generate a profit. http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/HFT0324.pdf

      It seems to me that since HFT makes liquidity available to everyone, then it is HFT itself that is providing a valuable community purpose. In fact, one of the early criticisms of HFT was that it was detrimental to large, institutional traders like the "too big to fail" big banks.

    127. Re:Good by ganjadude · · Score: 2

      in other words, because you arent benefiting from it directly, fuck everyone who is... got it!

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    128. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do that trade and you are running substantial risk not only in getting legged but in currency fluctuations f*cking with you. There is only a limited profit at a given combination of price and fx rate.

    129. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      A useful lesson - HFT, together with better and faster global information, has made all markets essentially macroeconomic, and the system as a whole is becoming scale-free - there are transactions at all frequencies. So, by analogy look at the ocean. There are 'critters' of all sizes making a living, from viruses to whales. And there are ripples on the ocean of all sizes and frequencies from the quantum fluctuation to huge swells. (And there are storms, and earthquakes, etc.) So it is possible to earn a living at all frequencies and sizes - but you have to take advantage of your own 'information rate' and window your activities accordingly - don't try to compete with HFT, work at the daily or weekly or monthly information rate. HFT by its nature can not respond to slower movements - they live and die on the millisecond level, responding to overall macro events only as manifested in their short time window.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    130. Re:Good by ggraham412 · · Score: 1

      I think the intent of this is to raise the costs and regulatory burdens to the point that only too-big-to-fail banks will be able to afford HFT operations going forward.

    131. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get better analysis from here...
      http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/4150.html

      They are the experts at analysing HFT.

    132. Re:Good by lightknight · · Score: 1

      An interesting take. You're saying that in so far as the iron was unmined, and as such, the actual quantity / quality unknown, the people who accepted it as collateral should not have? This is, of course, assuming that the company had full rights to the iron which others have hinted are based in a somewhat unstable country.

      I could see how it could be that way...essentially it's a bluff on a good day, a fraudulent transaction on a bad day. Since you're telling the market that you're good for this much iron, and the market is supposed to react like that information is good, and it's not...that could create all sorts of ripples. Maybe the ore really is worth that much, maybe it isn't...the fact remains, it's ore, i.e. unrefined, and as such, there is no easy way to qualify it like 99% pure iron ingots.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    133. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you thing HFT reacts to *news*, then you would be the stupid one. HFT reacts to trades. They don't yet have AIs that can watch the news live and make a trade decision based on it in milliseconds.

      Uh, actually, they do. I used to work for a HFT firm and this was one of the big moves forward (well... if you call that 'forward moving', I don't, Im with the HFT has no positive value to offer - camp). But AIs that do exactly that: constantly scan the newsfeeds and try and determine any big market moves from it. Simple example: "All AirCompany flights grounded!" would likely cause a spike downwards in the stock price of AirCompany.

    134. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HFT sends ripples though the whole stock market in the fact that quarterly numbers are not good enough... companies have to focus on the next epsilon of time, hell with all else. If it makes cash this hour, do it, even though stock prices will take a beating 120 minutes later.

      I'm all for a tax. HFT is great if you have a fast connection and algorithms that are 50.000001 correct, but it harms every other party in the market.

    135. Re:Good by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Something like 60% of the active volume of trades are HFT that is lasting less than a second. That isn't investing in a company that is gambling.

      That sounds insightful - but really, it's stupid as hell and relies on swallowing decades of nonsensical propaganda... propaganda that vanishes like a soap bubble in a hurricane the instant you apply any actual thought.
       
      The propaganda? That buying stocks is "investing in a company" - except for a minority of cases, that's utter hogwash. If I buy a share of GOOG today the money doesn't go to Google, it goes to the last guy who owned that share. If the money doesn't go to Google, then how am I investing in them? The answer - I'm not. I'm making a bet with myself that the share will go up in value.
       
        It's all gambling.
       
      The only exceptions are IPOs and when a company releases some treasury stock onto the market.

    136. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      In fact, from the way flash crashes happen you can see exactly how HFT does not add liquidity ...

      Actually that's pretty good evidence that HFT is decreasing the viscosity of the liquid.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    137. Re:Good by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      I know, it also depends on what kind of shareholder we are talking about. Actually most of then just want maximum profits (extremely short and limited vision), but some people still wants to really be "partner" of the company. At at the bottom, the problem is the stock market became a casino, and this move away those who think in long term.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    138. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      HFT is a problem because it interferes with free markets: you can't have people make rational buying decisions within a few microseconds.

      But computers can, in fact that's the whole point. In fact people aren't very good at purely rational buying/selling decisions (especially men according to the research). HFT implements the microscale component of the inherently scale-free nature of global markets - the interface between the 'quantum' level (fluctuations around the minimum price and time difference) and the macro level.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    139. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody mod this up!

    140. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 2

      This from the person that doesnt even know that there is a difference between bid prices and ask prices

      You seem to have a desperate need to believe you are the only person who knows the difference. I have no idea where you might have drawn that conclusion except your ass.

      Of course there are two, bid and ask. When they come together, a deal is made. HFT likes to pretend that but for them, the market would sit befuddled for the rest of time over a 1 cent difference and ignore the fact that it did just fine for a very long time without them.

    141. Re:Good by ax_42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Jim is standing over there, and shouts out "50c to buy this apple". Flash the wonder asshole stands close to Jim, so he hears this first. He then runs to Jon at the speed of light (which is faster than sound) and asks Jon "Would you buy an apple for 51c?". Jon says "why yes, that sounds reasonable". Note, Jon would, by definition, also be happy to pay 50c for the apple. But Flash is a fast fucker, and the sound of Jim's call hasn't reached Jon yet, so Flash buys the apple and runs to Jon and sells it to Jon at the higher price.

      In economic terms, Flash has pocketed the surplus 1c, which would otherwise would have accrued to Jon (as he would have paid 1c less than his maximum). Sounds great so far, Flash is benefiting from his l33t running skills, Jim got his price (50c) and Jon paid what he was prepared to pay (51c).

      Except it's not that simple, or rosy.......
      First of all, Flash is running between willing participants in a market, adding no value to anyone but himself (arguably he is destroying value by forcing the exchanges to put in more and more expensive infrastructure, which everyone in the market is paying for). The fact that Jim sells his apple a microsecond faster is not relevant to a normal market participant.

      Second, and much worse, Flash is not actually asking Jim "would you like to buy an apple for 51c". He's asking "would you like to buy for 51.05c", ah, no, "how about 51.049", no? how about "51.048" and so on (creating and cancelling orders all the time, massively loading up the system). Simultaneously there are two possible ways he's trying to figure out Jim's minimum price -- he's either asking Jim "sell for 49.99?", "49.991?", "49.992" ....until Jim says "yes" or, if he's a real scumbat, saying "I'll give you 50.5" and when Jim says "OK", say "Hah, made you look, order is cancelled, how about 50.45" and because he is so quick, he can cancel before the order fills.

      Oh yes, and if you screw up, you go plead to the market to get your positions reversed. And because you pay so much to the market in fees (stock exchanges are companies, which charge traders to participate in the market), the market turns a blind eye.

      And that, kids, is why HFT is fucking antisocial scum -- they manipulate the markets for their own ends, squeezing out surplus for only their own benefit. They add no value to anyone but themselves (increased liquidity is a trope -- no normal investor needs microsecond delivery). They've corrupted their system of oversight (the exchanges) to be dependent on the fees they pay.

      One solution: ticked trading, bids and offers get queued and matched at a fixed interval (say every 0.5s), this would kill HFTs immediately as you can no longer run between Jim and Jon faster they can communicate themselves.

      Alternative solution involves tar, feathers, a rail and a town.

    142. Re:Good by ax_42 · · Score: 1

      No, this is arbitrage, not HFT. If Jon knew about the market apple @ 30c, he would buy it. Extensive information (which modern markets provide) ruins arbitrage, which is probably fine, but your example has NOTHING to do with HFT (except that arbitrage gaps nowadays are extremely short-lived, so only HFTs can benefit from them).

    143. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is so easy to fix. Tax profits on a scale descending the longer you hold. We do this already, it just needs to be fine tuned. Anything less than a second gets taxed 100%, and then 1% less per minute down to 50%, then 1% less per hour of holding. Easy peasy, japaneasy.

    144. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 2

      If market equilibration is so essential, then why don't we let our government run this? (*)

      Because that's the opposite of equilibration.

      Without beating the horse more than I already have in a dozen other posts (I _really_ need to get to work!), HFT is basically implementing the interface between what one might call the 'quantum level' and the macro level. Now that the tech bubble aspect of HFT is popped and dissipating, and for every HFT algorithm there is another HFT algorithm second guessing that algorithm, HFT's primary effect is to damp out the small ripples in the global markets. Yes there will be random fluctuations on the order of T/N where T is the number of time quanta and N is the number of minimum price differences in a market (the probability of a price difference of N cents occuring increases over T microseconds). So the markets are now more purely scale-free and operate at a much finer level of granularity than used to be - it used to be minutes and eighths of a dollar, now it's microseconds and fractions of a cent. That's all. For everyone except HFT algorithms, the market is now just more efficient and the information more perfect.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    145. Re:Good by dywolf · · Score: 1

      driving a ferrari pedal to the floor blindfolded is no different than driving a Model T pedal to the floor blindfolded....except its much more likely to kill you.

      "no different but much faster" is still different and is not an excuse.
      the higher speed now causes it to be a bad thing and harmful.
      what was fine before is no longer fine when it is now different.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    146. Re:Good by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      You say you don’t want parasites? That is a pejorative statement. A better statement is that I want the most efficient transaction where the middle man the least money. And that is what HFT does.

      Back in the good old days when stocks were traded under a buttonwood tree the spread was 5 to 10%.

      Back in the 90s, before HFT, market makers would charge me $.125 to .25 per share – on top of what my broker charges

      Now, with HFT, the middle man charges me $.01 to .001 per share. It’s the least parasitic.

      France introduced a tax like this and guess what – fewer HFT, larger spreads, more volatility. More parasitic.

    147. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      Because that's the opposite of equilibration.

      There is sort of a fallacy here, I forgot the name of.

      the market is now just more efficient and the information more perfect

      That does not justify it. Here's the reason: if we could speed up HFT trading to the order of femtoseconds, then that would be an improvement too. Will we achieve that? Due to the speed of information being limited to the speed of light, nope. Will markets suddenly collapse because we can't reach that? Not likely.

      In my opinion HFT traders are filling a gap in the market that should not exist.

      And there is nothing against introducing a tax if it is sufficiently low, and slowly increasing that tax while closely watching the effects.

      I _really_ need to get to work!

      So should all those HFT traders :)

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    148. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $51 cents

      Ouch, this is just as bad as the 5 dollar buck lunch:

      http://www.dairyqueen.com/us-en/5-BUCK-LUNCH/

    149. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      No. Arbitrage would be if flash knew that Jon liked apples, bought one from Jim and then took it over to Jon in the next town where apples were a dollar each.

      In other words, it would perform a useful purpose. HFT is imposed arbitrage where none is needed.

    150. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      Uh, he was talking about the little kiosks where travelers exchange currency. You don't bid and ask there, you hand them x in one currency, they hand you Y in another. The value of Y will be a bit less than X to support their business.

    151. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      *I stand corrected. They're even bigger idiots than I thought.

    152. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      Parsing is easy. Figuring out if it's good or bad news and for whom is more difficult.

    153. Re:Good by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Where did I say that market makers served no purpose? My point was that the settlement assurance was provided not by market makers, but by a clearing house.

    154. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      In my opinion HFT traders are filling a gap in the market that should not exist.

      All of the research shows the opposite to be the case.

      And there is nothing against introducing a tax if it is sufficiently low, and slowly increasing that tax while closely watching the effects.

      This is another topic - the question of using taxation as an implement of social policy. Experts over 100 years, from SCOTUS (Chief Justice Robert Taft was the first) to academic research have shown this to be a very bad idea for a number of reasons, including inefficiency, unintended consequences and affecting all the wrong people/entities.

      Using your method (slowly increasing, ...) is making the government a participant in the market rather than a regulator, which is even worse. You're basically trying to establish the 'clearing price' of the tax, or if you prefer, trying to establish the most profitable supply/demand price - it's just like Levi's adjusting the price of their jeans to maximize profits. Proper regulation (even using a fixed tax, if it stays in place long enough) works by constructing the boundaries of the flows in the market(s) - think of them as the continents, islands, channels, jetties, etc. that establish the flows of the liquidity. But when governments participate in markets, they are no longer establishing boundaries, they are acting more like fish and boats, or whatever. Now every movement of the government, or even every signal that the government might do something, causes waves in the market - the opposite of what is desired. And the market response will now be casting that boat or fish about, affecting everything from the value of the dollar (or whatever currency) to unemployment in ways that are hard/impossible to predict.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    155. Re:Good by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 2

      It will only reduce transactions in which the expected gain is less than 0.03%. I think it has to be higher than that to really discourage high frequency trading.

      Why not just introduce a relatively-random amount of "wait time" to all trades submitted to the exchange? You, in effect, make attempts at HFT manipulation basically worthless because they can't guarantee the speed of execution on the trade. Make it on the order of 5-25 seconds--normal investors and long-term investors will neither notice nor care: They're investing for the long-horizon, at least several years, so they don't care if the trade executes in a nanosecond or 30 seconds.

      It obviates the need for a new tax while ending a truly nefarious practice.

      --
      Who did what now?
    156. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Having said that, I haven't said anything about whether the tax is a good idea or not. I really don't have much of an opinion, as long as it is small enough, and left in place unchanging for a long time. The price of trades is so much smaller for everyone than it used to be, so increasing that cost a small amount may not have much of an effect. It might be easier to just make the tax a percentage of the trading fee. Some form of tax may be a good way to raise revenue to pay for regulation and enforcement. But I'm not really up on what the taxes are now in different jurisdictions.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    157. Re:Good by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      The propaganda? That buying stocks is "investing in a company" - except for a minority of cases, that's utter hogwash. If I buy a share of GOOG today the money doesn't go to Google, it goes to the last guy who owned that share. If the money doesn't go to Google, then how am I investing in them? The answer - I'm not. I'm making a bet with myself that the share will go up in value.

      That's like arguing that used game sales "take away money from developers". Or ... are you trying to justify buying the Xbox One?

      Because whether it's a used game or a share, it's the same thing. Once the developer sells you (through a convoluted maze of resellers) a copy of the game, that's it. They sold one copy. Just like how the company sells you (through a convoluted maze of resellers, aka traders) a share, that's it.

      You're right in that the money doesn't go to Google, or the developer. Of course, you could argue that perhaps the developer should get a cut of every used game sale, just like Google should get a cut of every trade. Would that make things better?

      The reality is, yes, you do own a part of Google. Google doesn't (and probably shouldn't) get a cut of that trade, just like your used copy of a game is a legitimate copy of the game. Whether you paid what the original buyer paid, less, or more, it doesn't matter. The seller doesn't own a copy of the game (license) anymore, just like the seller doesn't own that much of Google anymore.

      A share is a representation of a portion of the company, given that it's rather unwieldy to actually handle a portion of the company (do you want the little bit of window you now own? Or maybe chip a little from the building foundation? Or a stick of RAM from a Googler's PC?).

      And people make bets with themselves all the time - ask the collectibles market all about it. It all boils down to the same - whether it's trading cards, CDs, DVDs, video games, lamps, computers, signs, shares, bonds, funds, whatever.

    158. Re:Good by IronAmbassador · · Score: 2

      "They're not market makers who must post bids and asks at all times, it's fake liquidity that's only there when its convienenty." Really, you think the Designated Market Makers on the NYSE aren't employing HFT to make their markets? You might want to take another look at that.

    159. Re:Good by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 1

      HFT can not manipulate supply and demand, only respond to very small differences that a human can't respond to quickly enough.

      How is that positive? These applications monitor (and take as gospel) Twitter: That's fucking stupid. They created a brief crash in the market when somebody got control of AP's Twitter account and sent out a fake "Bomb at White House, Obama injured" tweet. Computers are wonderful, but they are aids to humans, not replacements for them.

      Another thing about HFT: It's existence dramatically limits the average investor (John Q. Public) from profiting on these differences between share price and perceived value: Even if he logs into E-trade the moment he has the idea, the HFTs have had the data for 10 minutes or more and have already profited 10,000 times and killed the average investor's profits.

      And although HFT can't manipulate supply, it absolutely can manipulate demand: One of the "features" of HFT is millions of trades entered, some percentage of which are cancelled before being executed. But during that time frame between entry and execution other HFT's know about those orders and respond accordingly. A malicious person wanting to manipulate demand for a certain share to give himself a price-bump so he can unload his shares for a better price would merely need access to the person with the password to control "which trades to cancel" functions...

      --
      Who did what now?
    160. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Your analogy neglects the difference between the roads used by a Model T and the modern roads. And blindfolded is inapplicable. A better analogy would be between a 747 and a Model T, but that has problems as well. The best analogy would be the most direct - between the Baron von Rothschild's messengers returning to London from Waterloo a few hours before the royal messengers, allowing him to arbitrage the stock market, and the ticker tape, allowing everyone to get the same information at the same time, much more quickly. The ticker tape revolutionized stock trading in the late 1800s, dramatically decreasing the gap between stock prices in different locales. HFT is just an extrapolation of that. Now the bubble is passing, it's just the way most trades are done, even when a retail trader sells 10 shares of IBM - that 10 shares is either handled internally by his broker, or bundled into a larger trade that goes through the HFT network.

      (not to say I'm against the tax per se - I have no opinion on that.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    161. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's nothing to do with liquidity and all about transferring money from the stupid and disadvantaged to the HFT bunch.

      To me I'm fine with HFT trading IF:
      1) The money they're gambling with is deposited upfront and theirs to gamble with. If they gamble with money that isn't theirs to gamble away they go to jail. EVEN IF THEY WIN, because if I did the same thing I'd go to jail.
      2) If they make a big screw-up and their money is all gone, sorry too bad, no rollbacks, no cancelled trades, no bailouts.
      3) No cancel once the other party accepts your offer. Otherwise it's lying and thus fraud.

    162. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1, Good is an arbitrary term. Nothing is "good" by default.
      2, Good is generally taken to mean "whatever benefits the largest number of people at the expense of the least number of people"

      To the common man that roughly means:

      1, Saving a single life at the expense of millions is bad.
      2, Saving millions of lives at the expense of one is good.

      HFT is "bad" because it benefits a few traders at the expense of the rest.

      It is a commonly known hallmark of psychopathy to favor the few more than the many. That is why you are facing an uphill battle to defend HFT.

    163. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      HFT can not manipulate supply and demand, only respond to very small differences that a human can't respond to quickly enough.

      How is that positive? These applications monitor (and take as gospel) Twitter: That's fucking stupid. They created a brief crash in the market when somebody got control of AP's Twitter account and sent out a fake "Bomb at White House, Obama injured" tweet.

      Nothing to do with HFT, any more than bank robbing is a function of automobiles. Automobiles just made getting away faster. And, while it didn't get covered in the news, HFT also compensated for this glitch within minutes, rapidly moving markets back toward equilibrium.

      Computers are wonderful, but they are aids to humans, not replacements for them.

      Yep. :)

      Another thing about HFT: It's existence dramatically limits the average investor (John Q. Public) from profiting on these differences between share price and perceived value: Even if he logs into E-trade the moment he has the idea, the HFTs have had the data for 10 minutes or more and have already profited 10,000 times and killed the average investor's profits.

      If JQP is attempting to do HFT, he's a sucker. It's a scale-free system, there are opportunities to profit (or lose...) at all frequencies. JQP needs to work at the time/price range that he is competent. 10 minutes is not the proper time/price range.

      And although HFT can't manipulate supply, it absolutely can manipulate demand: One of the "features" of HFT is millions of trades entered, some percentage of which are cancelled before being executed. But during that time frame between entry and execution other HFT's know about those orders and respond accordingly. A malicious person wanting to manipulate demand for a certain share to give himself a price-bump so he can unload his shares for a better price would merely need access to the person with the password to control "which trades to cancel" functions...

      Manipulations such as trade cancellation are a separate problem. It's always been there, just faster now. (Heck, IIRC that's one of the ways Joseph Kennedy made his wad - and why Roosevelet made him head of the SEC, since he knew how to cheat he knew where to look for cheaters.) And regulators continue to work on those problems. The regulators themselves are now running HFT-like systems to monitor HFT-domain issues. Which is as it should be.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    164. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      All of the research shows the opposite to be the case.

      Such a strong assertion requires citations of course.

      Now every movement of the government, or even every signal that the government might do something, causes waves in the market - the opposite of what is desired.

      The whole idea was to introduce a tax and _slowly_ increase it. Letting a boat enter the water sufficiently slow will not cause waves.
      You might also think of it as boundaries which slowly deform.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    165. Re:Good by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      What concerns me about this method of controlling this is the compliance costs. Whenever there is a tax there are forms to be filled out, reports to be filed and audits to be done.

      The tax collection and remittance would all be handled by the exchanges.
      Audits are trivial, since every single trade is already logged.

      Well if these brokerages spend all of this money complying with a tiny tax to stop an undesirable behavior they are going to pass that on to customers.

      0.03% is a rounding error to most traders.
      The only people who will be thwarted by the tax are HFTs who make their money on fractions of a cent.

      0.03% is an extremely small cost to pay for stamping out zero-sum HFT activity.
      If we're lucky, they'll roll that money back into the SEC for better enforcement of the stock and commodities markets.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    166. Re:Good by tjb · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, the alternative is what existed before HFT - If Jim wants to sell an apple, and Bob wants to buy an apple, Jim must sell it to someone with a seat on the exchange who will extract 12.5 cents per share on each side of the trade.

      HFT effectively put the traditional market-makers out of business by providing liquidity at fractional pennies per share rather than taking 1/8th of a point per share on each end, but people bitch about how unfair it is because microseconds or something.

    167. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah don' geddit.

    168. Re:Good by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Seriously.. explain it to me without resorting to a hatred.

      Ok. There will be a bit of sarcasm, but no hatred. Deal?

      Explain to everyone why it is that when they get a higher price when they sell and a lower price when they buy that its "bad."

      How about "common sense"?

      First, if "they" are getting a higher price when they sell, and a lower price when they buy, then "we" are buying at higher prices, and selling at lower ones, because we're buying and selling from them. Their gain is our loss.

      They provide no real value to the system. If I am selling a stock, and you are buying one. The trade will go through. There is no need for an HFT middleman to rush in, grab my stock before you can, and then sell it to you for a fractionally higher amount.

      That doesn't benefit me. I lost the opportunity to sell it to you for that extra fraction of a cent that you were willing to pay. And it doesn't benefit you, because you lost the opportunity to buy it for a fraction of a cent less that I was willing to sell at. We both lost.

      High freq traders are like the middleman in a transaction. And like all middlemen in all transactions they want to make money. How do they make there money? By slicing a tiny percentage of every transaction for themselves.

      Who pays for that? The people at the ends of the transaction. The real investors. You and I. Every dollar they collectively make is a dollar real investors collectively lost.

      They are leeches.

      I happen to like paying less for things when I buy, and getting more for things when I sell.

      I do to. But HFT accomplishes the opposite of that.

      Now, turn the question on its side, and ask what benefits HFT thinks it brings?

      Improved liquidity? Because long term investors care if there trade is executed in microseconds rather than mere seconds?

      Improved price efficiency? Yes and no. HFT does all the arbitrage between buyers and sellers so while HFT does find the 'true' market price faster, there is no REAL market efficiency gained by doing so. The financial 'benefit' of finding the 'true' price are simply extracted by them. So you and I don't benefit, we still pay the less efficient prices. They take the difference.

      Improved stability? That one's just a bald faced lie. The markets are not more stable now.

      The reality is that online trading, discount online brokerages, and just the computerization of the exchanges in general have created all the cheap liquidity and market efficiency we really need.

    169. Re:Good by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      You're obviously a smart guy--as evidenced by your low id number--but I always cringe when sweeping generalizations are made about what will happen given changes to tax code and when people say "Way too much of our economy is tied into the stock market."

      Economies adapt, as they are really just aspects of human desires and the activity people engage to fill those desires based on their tradeoffs or costs. Economies do not rely on any particular market.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    170. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      If they really want to make a deal, one or the other (probably both) will move. They don't actually need flash at all. If they're not that anxious to make a deal, then liquidity is largely irrelevant to them.

      Flash only likes to butt in when bid and ask are just about to come together anyway. That way he need not actually (god forbid) hold the commodity for any length of time.

    171. Re:Good by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      The ignorance of money on slashdot is rather shocking (or maybe not...? Slashdot tends to have a anti-capitalist slant.)

      Money gets created out of thin air all the time, in fact it happens quite possibly in the millions of times per day. When banks issue large loans, they notify the reserve who increases their reserves - the bank itself doesn't actually have to have that money, in fact there is no printing of any kind involved. When the loan matures the money is removed from whence it came, but the bank keeps the interest. This happens in basically every country with a central bank reserve system.

      This isn't a bad thing by the way - it serves its purpose to rather good effect, in spite of the fed's general mismanagement problems.

      HFT does nothing similar to this anyways. With HFT no money is being created - it came from somebody else's bank account, and the size of the reserve (be it cash or non-cash) never changed. And it's not as if it was robbed either as the buyer agreed to pay it.

      The only way I could see HFT as being bad is for people who just absolutely despise the idea that you spend money to make money. Holding this view is the bad thing though - the economy is heavily built around this. As another poster mentioned for example, if you've ever bought something and then turned around and sold it for more, then you've effectively made money with money.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    172. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      There were citations to that earlier in the topic - I'm at work now so can't go back and look them up.

      And agreed, the wave (it's still there) would be much slower and smaller. One of the relatively unknown bits about much legislation is what they call 'transition rules' that establish the rate at which changes are to take place. This often includes a gradual increase in a tax to the final amount. As a rather messy case in point, the Obamacare legislation takes a good part of a decade to go completely into effect.

      As I noted, perhaps in another comment, I don't have a strong opinion on the actual tax proposed - I've been responding mainly to various commenters' lack of knowledge (excepting yourself, of course! :D ) Trading fees are so much smaller for everyone now that a small tax would not seem to make much of a difference - but it should be imposed gradually if large, and should not change back and forth, effectively 'whipping' the market response. I don't think that the government could successfully use the method of 'seeing how the market responds', unless the congress sets a maximum value and lets the SEC handle the implementation as a regulatory activity, and in fact I dislike it as a market control entirely (such a control can not respond quickly enough), though I'm perfectly OK with it as a money raising method to pay for regulation - as such they should just pick a rate and stick with it. Generally, when the government intervenes in a market - such as the Fed action, and the 'stimulus' - by the time the government's response goes into effect the market has already gone past the point where the effect would be as desired, and instead the government 'pumps the swing' up the other side, exacerbating the market swings.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    173. Re:Good by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      I have a better idea for you: Cut the middle man. I do not need middle mans between me and my buyers/sellers.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    174. Re:Good by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Tax them! These speculative transactions do not add value to the economy.

      HFT is not speculation. It is the exact opposite. HFTers are market makers, not speculators. This tax will result in higher spreads between buy and sell prices, and will be passed onto you in the form of higher transaction costs whenever you buy or sell a stock. It isn't clear to me what people that want to constrain HFT are trying to accomplish. Reduce volatility? The balance of evidence is that HFT results in less volatility. Encourage long term investing? Average hold time of stocks is actually correlated with lower overall economic growth. Stop people from doing something that sounds scary to people that don't understand it? Maybe.

    175. Re:Good by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Yes, when you buy stock, the money goes to the -previous- owner of that part of the company.

      But long-term stock-ownership is still influenced mostly by the performance of the actual company, whereas that's entirely irrelevant for HFT. Apple is valuable today, compared to 20 years ago because they as a company grew in every way over those 20 years.

    176. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      There were citations to that earlier in the topic - I'm at work now so can't go back and look them up.

      Ok. Of course, I'll go through google scholar and double check their validity based on references.

      Unless the congress sets a maximum value and lets the SEC handle the implementation as a regulatory activity

      The _speed of change_ of the actual tax value should be limited, not its value. (Like a low-pass filter)

      I've been responding mainly to various commenters' lack of knowledge (excepting yourself, of course! :D )

      After reading your comments, I'm still far from convinced that HFT is such a good idea. HFT seems to be an exponent of laissez faire capitalism, but as the latter turned out to be not such a brilliant economic model after all, the former needs to be treated with suspicion until proven not harmful to society.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    177. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the people doing this are not idiots. They are the ones making the profits. They make everybody else look like idiots.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    178. Re:Good by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      When volume is your target you want a flat tax-- ie, $0.01 per trade. THAT would have essentially zero effect on the average trader.

      Percent based hits everyone exactly the same. It WOULD affect people chasing after a 0.01% profit, but it doesnt really target HFT particularly.

    179. Re:Good by locofungus · · Score: 1

      You are right that in theory you can be a market maker without clearing but true market makers are members of the exchange. Being a market maker gives them certain extra freedoms and certain extra obligations.

      And being a member of the exchange means that you get clearing.

      It's not easy to predict what might happen if there wasn't true market makers.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    180. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      (Like a low-pass filter)

      Aha - this is the key insight! :) - at least as far as my intellectual model of markets (and economies) perceives. It is quite reasonable to use the physics of wave models on markets, increasingly so as computers take over the plumbing. For simple economic models, you can use the calculus of electronics and not go far wrong. A sudden event, like a sell of 100MM shares of X, looks to the market like a step function, and it will respond with a very rapid (near vertical) drop, which will 'ring' as it overshoots the new equilibrium, then reacts - a classic square wave without enough low pass filtering (if I get my low/high stuff right). HFT greatly improves that response with a much better & faster settling time to the new equilibrium.

      IMHO, any market is an approximation of a 'complex adaptive system' (essentially any living system - ecosystems, brains, economies, political systems, and high school social hierarchies are some examples). These in turn are approximations that lie somewhere between 'billiard ball physics' and fluid dynamics. (For an illuminating experience, read "The Edge of Chaos" - a controversial but nevertheless very instructive book.) The finer the granulation of possible trades, the more closely the markets approximate a wave equation in a large number of dimensions, and the less the effect of 'quantization error' - fluctuations around the minimum price & trade execution time.

      Ane can easily see the pool of common stocks that every broker maintains on their own books as analogous (or equivalent to) capacitors, or lakes, if one prefers to work with water. HFT has reduced the resistance (and impedance? I think so but IANA EE) in the wires, or increased the flow rate through the rivers and ocean currents if you prefer - it's reduced the viscosity of the fluid (money). The biggest difference to electronics and similar domains is the number of dimensions = it's like a circuit with 100,000,000,000 active elements and a similar number of interconnects - or more likely, another 5 orders of magnitude number of interconnects. That's why neural networks are very good at this stuff.

      Sorry, I know I'm jumping around a lot - this was going to be my thesis topic in an economics PhD but I went another direction and never started the PhD program.

      (The number of dimensions is an interesting area of exploration - it can be viewed in a variety of ways.)

      WRT high school social hierarchies - research has shown that popularity and who-knows-who form an inverse power law distribution, which is indicative of a scale-free system or C.A.S. - a student's popularity is 1/N where N is the number of people who 'know' them.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    181. Re:Good by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Do you know what the problem is with your analogy?

      That you think Jim and Jon are in the same room, they aren't. See before HFT made it's appearance stocks weren't sold by buyers and sellers coming together. Both groups submitted orders to a guy called "market maker" who was a broker that traded in the stock. He made his money arbitrating the value between the buyer and seller and making a profit on the spread, JUST like you are saying flash does, just in slower time frames. Typical spreads from a market maker were in the range of 1-3% of the value depending on how widely the stock is traded. Widely traded stocks carried by multiple market makers made very little per transaction but those with only one market maker, well I think you can imagine what the profit margins were to the dealer.

      HFT has essentially eliminated the market makers, the more HFT the more the arbitrage decreases and the more the price between buyer and seller normalizes. In fact as they HFT companies race to zero that percentage is approaching zero.

      Since HFT has matured it's actually easier to get better pricing than it was under the old market maker model. You are argue to go back to that, I think you are insane and don't buy/sell stocks.

      I don't like HFT, and I think it's a danger that needs to be regulated in some fashion but at the same time I don't want it to go away because what we had before cost the small investor far more than the current system.

    182. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Do I really have to Google Scholar it for you?
      What The Fuck man, are you still living in the 90's?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    183. Re:Good by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      You seem to have a desperate need to believe you are the only person who knows the difference.

      I am not the only person that knows the difference. For example, yesterday you did not but today you now do thanks to me. Anyone can click on your name there and see your posts that quite clearly demonstrate that you did not have a grasp of the concept.

      You are welcome. Next time, stick to subjects that you know something the fuck about when you decide to act like an expert.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    184. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, theu're pretty stupid for bucnch of so-called financial experts, aren't they? HFT simply will not be possible in our not-too-distant future.Back of the envelope calcs can tell you that. A capped world economy is coming - there's simply not enough in the ground to pay for current debts, let alone the looming monster of having a civilisation with a total worth around 140-240 trillion (that's with everything taken out of the ground, the higher figure accounts for fictitious engineering advances) but with debts of a couple of hundred quadrillion (debt doesn't go linear like earnings). We'll be looking at 2% growth as a "tiger" nation. Presidents will be elected with landslide majorities on promises of 0.5% growth.

      Of course, HFT is just bringing on a future problem...for the USA in particular. We have to learn that you can't just "print wealth". I fear the USA (Wall St) will find that out in a hard way once we go to a closed-box economy because it simply won't be possible to do this kind of thing without causing hatred by those who lose out (in other words, die), which will cause some wonderful blowback. It won't matter what island you live on or how high you build your walls...micro-drones for all, thanks to the US military!

      So, they're ironically sowing the seeds of their children's demise, which will occur through their efforts to make their children's lives better. It's truly bizarre.

    185. Re:Good by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      HFT is a symptom of a deeply broken system.

      Nah, I'd argue HFT is a symptom of a moderately broken system. The whole point of exchanges is to be market makers--to allow the means for transactions to occur. HFT are supposedly part of the solution to issues of liquidity--that two parties who are technically willing to trade but on their face claim otherwise can be manipulated to get out that information and allow the transaction to occur. It seems pretty clear that if exchanges are failing in their part and a 3rd party can succeed, then it's exchanges which need to change.

      To that end, I propose a simple solution. Exchanges will run their own equivalent of HFT, without any unnecessary price spread. And since HFTers, no matter how close they are, are outside the exchange, they'll never be as fast as the exchange in carrying out those all-important liquidity transactions. Of course, it'll also just help if exchanges used ranges for prices for buy/sell, and then the overlap would be very apparent and HFTers would have little ability to step in and earn much of anything.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    186. Re:Good by Chirs · · Score: 1

      this is no different than arbitrage has been for centuries, only faster. Baron von Rothschild used this to make money on the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo, since his messengers were hours faster than the official royal messengers

      Just because it has been done for centuries doesn't necessarily mean it is right, or just.

    187. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      You'll ave to provide something arguable first. You provided only an obviously true statement shrouded as if it were a revelation. One cannot argue with the braying of an ass.

    188. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      You seem to have confused me with someone else. You might want to check again. Or perhaps check your glasses.

    189. Re:Good by jfengel · · Score: 1

      It's not even gambling, since it's rigged in the favor of the high-frequency traders. They obtain knowledge of trades before other people, and arbitrage that knowledge to buy slightly lower and sell slightly higher. The profits per trade are minuscule, but they leverage it by enormous sums of money and the vast number of transactions to turn a tidy profit for no work.

    190. Re:Good by stenvar · · Score: 1

      But computers can, in fact that's the whole point.

      My sentence didn't come out quite right. What I meant was that I think people can make a reasonable argument that HFT trading is harmful. I'm actually not convinced it is. But the general condemnation of markets by clickclickdrone just wouldn't follow from that even if true.

      In fact people aren't very good at purely rational buying/selling decisions (especially men according to the research).

      Neither are computers really. While computers can make slightly better decisions than humans under common conditions, they usually become much worse under exceptional situations. Even that wouldn't be a problem if the people deploying the computer programs had to bear the full cost of their actions when things go wrong. However, between liability limits and bailouts, participants in financial markets can take higher risks (with trading software or investments) than they should be able to in a free market, and that's not good. The way to fix this is, of course, not to create new taxes, but to hold those screwing up financially responsible for their actions when they do.

    191. Re:Good by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      I like that. Maybe shares will then be a representation of the value instead of penny fragments. Their investment value is minuscule until you can purchase a certain amount anyway. Imagine, real investment instead of speculation. I think you are on to something.

      https://www.google.com/search?q=bershire+hathaway+share+price&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#client=firefox-a&hs=ovL&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=berkshire+hathaway+share+price&spell=1&sa=X&ei=BZrAUeiwN6XWygHOwIGoAw&ved=0CCsQvwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47883778,d.aWc&fp=af3742879feae6e9&biw=1371&bih=837

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    192. Re:Good by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that even if we suppose that HFT is harmful, clickclickdrone's condemnation of markets and profits still wouldn't follow from it.

    193. Re:Good by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      I'm truly uncomfortable with how taxes are used to manipulate and manage society and how people are so wuick to employ them for this purpose without acknowledging it.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    194. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      this is no different than arbitrage has been for centuries, only faster. Baron von Rothschild used this to make money on the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo, since his messengers were hours faster than the official royal messengers

      Just because it has been done for centuries doesn't necessarily mean it is right, or just.

      It's exactly the same thing as when one of my neighbors has a TV they want to sell for $10, and I buy it and sell it to a friend across the river for $11. In both cases everyone is satisfied with the value given for value received. Without my knowledge the neighbor might not have sold it at all. I may or may not know what my friend would actually pay, so I may be betting that he will pay $11 (if I do know for sure, it's more arbitrage, if not, it's more speculation). And I also paid for the phone call out of my $1 margin. There are complications we can discuss such as borrowing the money to buy the TV long enough to get paid by my friend, but that's what it is. Arbitrage is nothing more than balancing the difference between two markets.

      It's also exactly the same thing as a river between two lakes - the river allows the two lakes to reach a common level, at a rate determined by the capacity of the river and various fluid dynamics considerations. Regulation has an important purpose here, such as setting the maximum flow rate to avoid erosion, flooding, 'tidal' waves splashing up on the opposite shore, etc.

      There are ways within this system to cheat, but arbitrage per se is not cheating, it's implementing the system of equilibrating the markets.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    195. Re:Good by jbengt · · Score: 1

      You understand incorrectly. HFT is doing exactly the same thing as day trading (well, not exactly, but close enough for this purpose), only faster and without sentiment . . .

      No, the big difference (other than speed) between day trading and high frequency trading, is the HFT algorithms that make thousands of offers a second but retract most of them. A tax on retracted offers could help stabilize things greatly. A tax on competed transactions would not do much to affect HFT, other than to reduce the profit margin.

    196. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I'd argue that computers are inherently rational, _within the limits of their programming_. Adaptive systems like neural networks are arguably more so in one sense, and less in another - depends on whether one considers rationality == deterministic. But studies have shown that people, especially men, are very emotional in their market decision making - our egos get in the way, and we fall into various bias traps.

      Heck, I'm looking at a startup now that may well be a loser, but I 'like' the idea behind it. Once I'm convinced it takes a lot of negative information to change my mind - just like everyone else.

      From my somewhat closer perspective (I'm involved in some financial stuff, and one of my cohorts is a risk manager at a major investment bank), I'd say that by and large the people/entities very much DO pay the price when things go wrong, nearly all the time. This applies to individual traders and to the institutions where they work. Even the ones you hear about are more often about the price being paid by the error-maker than about getting off scot free.

      I am not a fan of this 'too big to fail' B.S. and bailouts in general - that is an example of how the big institutions have managed to successfully manipulate the political system and built various 'rent-seeking' mechanisms into the rules. But (OTOH) I do see where bailouts to some extent could be used to help protect the minor players - individual investors and pension funds, for example - from the errors. That is an area of very strong debate in all arenas from academia to the companies, to the legislatures. (Chances are that any legislation will be worse than the disease, but that's another topic.) But it's well documented that bailouts and insurance have a perverse effect of encouraging investors (and whoever) to do less due diligence, and invest in things that are a bad idea. I'm trying to think of the term for this but drawing a blank.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    197. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Interesting idea.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    198. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just add a 1-minute delay to all computer trades but feed them data in real time. End of problem. No rational investor is going to be discouraged by a 1 minute delay in processing his/her order.

    199. Re:Good by mc6809e · · Score: 1

      Jim has an apple. He calls out, who will give me 50 cents for this lovely apple. Jon likes apples so he heads over. Just as he raises his hand to call out, flash the wonder trader bumps him into the gutter and buys the apple from Jim (even though he hates apples). He then offers it to Jon for $51 cents.

      At which point Jon says "nah, $50 is fair, but $51 is not -- enjoy your apple."

    200. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a false dichotomy. Penny pricing was implemented before HFT. When Bob, and Jim, and the whole apple gang place their electronic orders, they're still doing so through a broker: none of the orders you place at E-trade go directly to the market, and E-trade still takes a cut on both sides of the trade. You can have penny pricing without HFT, and you can even have electronic trading without HFT. The former are necessary for HFT to work, but HFT is not necessary for the former.

    201. Re:Good by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps we should start with tying responsability with investment. Knowing you could be held proportionately accountable for the actions of a corporation that you invest in might curb the rampant growth of psychopathic companies hell bent on destroying anything in their path for profit.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    202. Re:Good by mc6809e · · Score: 1

      0.03% is a rounding error to most traders.

      Riemann sums, how do they work?

    203. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      And flash yanks his offer back before it completes and walks away no worse for the wear.

    204. Re:Good by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Indeed, profit is the key word. Social value is incidental, if at all.

      So, a thief who steals as much as an HFT corporation is also fine? Without the metric of social value, there is little or no point to many of the laws we have, especially the ones we think of as 'good'. I'd posit that if the social value of HFT is on par with grand theft, it should be outlawed, and for the same reason.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    205. Re:Good by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      They apply quantitative algorithms developed against enormous amounts of data that most people do not have access to. This is not a "market" activity.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    206. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but if I was buying $100,000 worth of stock I'd have to pay the evil government $30 and that's bad(tm).

    207. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Sure it is. The HFT market is now essentially how the great majority of retail trades are also accomplished - your broker either sesttles your trade internally, or bundles it in with thousands of others to make a single large trade. And your broker does have access to that information, which optimizes his price to you. You are free to get that information as well, of course - but it will cost much more than any trading you're likely to do. It's pretty much wholesale vs. retail.

      No single entity (with the possible future exception of NSA...) has access to _all_ information. But if the players at a given level of activity have equal opportunities to acquire that information, then that works fine. I don't want to make this statement mean too much, so let's use Warren Buffett and Charley Munger as an example. These two folks pay zero attention to the day-to-day flips and flops of the market, because that's not their game. They play a 10-15 year game. Day traders with any sense are these days not playing a 10-second game, because that's the game of the big players who are paying $1000s per day for market information that is relevant on a sub-second level. Day traders should really be thinking in terms of at least days, preferably weeks or months, because the HFT folks have almost zero interest in anything beyond tomorrow.

      IOW it's a scale-free system. There are ripples of all sizes from 'quantum fluctuations' - random fluctuations around the minimum price difference - +/-1 cent or 0.1 cent are the most probable, trailing out in an inverse power law relationship to some large number, which amounts to an equivalent to a tidal wave - but in perhaps 10 to the 10th dimensions (every possible connection between every possible market input). And the key is equal access to the _relevant_ information for all players _at that level_. Given that, the market will always tend to settle to an equilibrium state (though it never will reach it).

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    208. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Essentially you are saying "I dont like how he makes money, so lets punish him"

      No, it's "I dont like how he makes money because I loathe parasites." These people extract wealth from the system while contributing absolutely nothing whatever. I have more respect for a penniless bum begging for spare change, which is little at all.

    209. Re:Good by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, still not seeing what the contention is here.

      Premise 1: Reckless pursuit of profit may not be in the interests of long-term stability and sustainability

      Premise 2: HFT is a perfect example of reckless and harmful pursuit of profit

      Conclusion: Given Premises 1 and 2, HFT is not in the interest of long-term stability and sustainability.

      So yes, if you want to advocate an economy based on "long term stewardship," you need to include HFT as one of the problems that stand in the way.
      =Smidge=

    210. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 2

      I'll just add that I know of people who started out with their own little neural network program on their home PC, watching 15 minute delayed quotes from Yahoo (or in some cases just watching daily closings), and let their little PC grind away and first, recommend, then later execute trades, and made money - in some cases lots of money.

      The point is it's a scale free network. You don't need to know what the HFT traders need to know - you only need to know what's relevant at your time and volume scale. The HFTs are trading on ripples that, if it were an ocean, would be far beyond the visible, and in so doing are making the market an order of magnitude more liquid and more 'efficient' (in the economics sense, as well as the general sense). You can profitably trade on ripples that are (by way of analogy) the size of your fingernail up to the length of your arm (days to months); and other people/entities can make money trading on the huge macroeconomic trends over years, like Berkshire Hathaway. (When the dotcom bubble was building, BH stocks were down to about $14,000 per share but I was too broke to buy any. Now it's something like $175,000 per share.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    211. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      expenses that the rest of us have to pay for. Exchanges need to beef up their computer systems in order to handle all the volume that could be unleashed by the HFT crowd; that's an expense that's getting passed on to all of us, not just them.

      If HFT is causing more expenses to the exchange than profits, then why don't exchanges block HF traders as spammers, or put in delays or something? I'm not super informed about how HFT works so I apologize if this is ignorant, but I don't understand why exchanges would accept business from someone who costs them money. The impression I've gotten is that HFT is like a casino, and in casinos the house always wins.

    212. Re:Good by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      "The key fact of the story is that the 'tech bubble' component of HFT is over"

      I see you posting this kind of thing left right and center on this story and it makes me think you have some dog in this race because there is absolutely no way you can know this, even if you have access to the highly guarded information that goes into building HFT systems.

      How can you possibly know that there wont be another such glitch?

      Please present proof that matches the categorical and unambiguous nature of your claims. Demonstrate that there isn't some seemingly reasonable common but catastrophic assumption built into a large number of the HFT systems in existence. A study where researchers have been given access to the source code and surveyed say a couple of hundred such traders would be a nice start, but your claims are absolute so I would like to see proof.

    213. Re:Good by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I laughed at the "We're doing more things better than ever before and making less money doing it." comment. "We didn't ever *do* anything, just steal from others through arbitrage, and people are finally targeting our unethical arbitrage for elimination, so now that the lights are on, time to scatter."

      The system was designed for non-anonymous paper trades between trusted people. It wasn't even considered that someone could sit in the middle and execute two trades in a millisecond, skimming from both ends with neither finding out about it. The "fix" was always to go to a batched system. Trades happen every hour, 30 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, on down, depending on volume of the specific stock. The trades are submitted in the batch before the batch trading, no takes-backsies, and buys are matched with identical sells randomly for all matches, and then from there for unpriced buys and sells, until all stocks are accounted for in the trade period, with leftovers "rejected" and rescheduled for the next trade period or the one after, if placed conditionally with the option to cancel.

      No, I don't think that's perfect. Yes, it likely has a few holes. But it's better than the current system, and can easily be improved upon by those with more trading knowledge/experience.

      The first-come first-served, can't set a price system is unsustainable when others would do all they can to steal because it's impossible to set a buy or sell price. And that there is preferental trading.

    214. Re:Good by Too+Much+Noise · · Score: 1

      So, a thief who steals as much as an HFT corporation is also fine? Without the metric of social value, there is little or no point to many of the laws we have, especially the ones we think of as 'good'. I'd posit that if the social value of HFT is on par with grand theft, it should be outlawed, and for the same reason.

      Well, my point is that markets (and in particular capital markets) are fundamentally about profit and nothing else. If you want to impose some additional system of values, be it social, ethical, religious (yes, there is such a thing in capital markets) ones, it has to be done from outside the 'free market' mentality. Because of that it amounts to extra regulation, so whether it is good or bad becomes a hot button issue in the US in general and on /. in particular and I chose to refrain from expressing a preference in a post that was more about facts.

    215. Re:Good by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Most stocks target a $20 price (based on skimming the listings, not scientific). So it isn't an issue. I don't seriously believe that someone would buy APPL over GOOG because of the share price. Though it might mean some HFT traders would target one over the other, so yes, that would drive people to a particular stock.

    216. Re:Good by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      All of the research shows the opposite to be the case.

      The research shows that they don't fill the gap, or that it should exist? I've not seen research that shows either (though I'm sure the HFTs have paid millions for "studies" that show they are something other than soulless leaches, don't forget, Big Tobacco paid for studies that showed smoking was good for you - didn't make it true).

      This is another topic - the question of using taxation as an implement of social policy.

      There is no "social policy" in this. It's an economic policy. Taxing for economic policy existed before the ink on the Constitution was dry, so taking the Constitution high road doesn't work here.

    217. Re:Good by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Most "casual" traders already operate at that level. I remember my first brokerage account as a 12 year old in the 80s. I had to wait *days* to find if my trade executed, and 5% change between order and execution was more common than it should have been.

    218. Re:Good by AK+Marc · · Score: 1, Insightful

      HFT is not day trading. Day trading (by those I know who make/made a living at it) was based on movement trends. One person I know, buys on all bad news. The people who hear bad news usually over-react, and you get the immediate dip, and then a quick 5-10% bounce up, then a slow trend back to baseline. She made good money on the "bounce". Another would trend things, often tracking a few stocks (5-10 in a single industry) and when there looked to be news affecting one over the other, or there was an unexplained drop in one of spike in another, he'd buy/sell accordingly.

      HFT is a pile of leaches looking for someone placing an order, then buying shares, waiting for the already placed order to catch up with them, and selling for a profit to someone who placed their order first. It's gaming the system to abuse the more casual traders. If HFT stopped tomorrow, there would be an improvement in the market. HFT is a bad thing for everyone who doesn't profit from it. The market should be adjusted to remove the arbitrage leaches.

    219. Re:Good by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Why is this better? No middle man, pay 5 to 10% spread. With market makes in the 90s, paid .5% to 1%. With HFT pay .01%

      Or are you so opposed to the idea of middle men you are willing to cut off your nose to spite your face?

    220. Re:Good by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstand me. If you do not have the middle man, then you have no spread to be paid. Deal directly with the buyer/seller, not with intermediaries.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    221. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations on the most retarded comment I've seen today.

      By the same logic, retail is theft. I mean, if Amazon is making money, their suppliers must be losing money. Right?

      Again, fucking retarded. The publisher makes a profit when he sells to Amazon, Amazon gets a profit when he sells to you, and you get the value (not talking monetary value here) of the book. The value of the item is increased at every step. That's completely different than trading stocks, son.

    222. Re:Good by T-Ranger · · Score: 1

      Well, you are proportionately responsible for the actions of companies you own. Up to exactly the price you paid for that share.

    223. Re:Good by stenvar · · Score: 1

      He didn't "include HFT as a problem that stands in the way", he called it a "symptom of a broken system". That is, he just doesn't like markets and the profit motive in general for unspecified reasons, and just observes that they also happen to cause HFT. Presumably, when whatever he believes is wrong with "the system" gets fixed, HFT, being a symptom, would get fixed with it.

    224. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      HFT is not day trading. Day trading (by those I know who make/made a living at it) was based on movement trends. One person I know, buys on all bad news. The people who hear bad news usually over-react, and you get the immediate dip, and then a quick 5-10% bounce up, then a slow trend back to baseline. She made good money on the "bounce". Another would trend things, often tracking a few stocks (5-10 in a single industry) and when there looked to be news affecting one over the other, or there was an unexplained drop in one of spike in another, he'd buy/sell accordingly.

      That's what HFT is doing as well, just on a faster & smaller scale. One of the results is that markets settle to the new clearing price much more quickly.

      HFT is a pile of leaches looking for someone placing an order, then buying shares, waiting for the already placed order to catch up with them, and selling for a profit to someone who placed their order first. It's gaming the system to abuse the more casual traders. If HFT stopped tomorrow, there would be an improvement in the market. HFT is a bad thing for everyone who doesn't profit from it. The market should be adjusted to remove the arbitrage leaches.

      No, that's not HFT, that's front running, which is illegal (at least if you're a broker). Front runners may _use_ HFT, but it's not HFT. Chances are when you buy/sell your 15.3 shares of IBM through Schwab, the broker is either handling the trade using its own internal pool of commonly held stocks, or it's bundling your trade together with a bunch of others and using the HFT network to execute.

      HFT is, at bottom, merely a logical extension of the numerous methods of increasing the speed and accuracy of trades, starting before the invention of the ticker tape in the late 1800s. Various entities use it in different ways. Back in the day, traders who paid for a ticker machine in their office were able to trade on news perhaps an hour earlier than those who didn't. Nothing has changed, only the scale.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    225. Re:Good by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I'd argue that computers are inherently rational, _within the limits of their programming_

      Rational behavior is optimal behavior given the information available to you; if you don't achieve that, you're not rational. Neither humans nor computers are anywhere rational. But humans are better in unusual situations.

      But studies have shown that people, especially men, are very emotional in their market decision making

      Studies have also shown that emotional decisions are objectively superior to non-emotional decisions.

      I'd say that by and large the people/entities very much DO pay the price when things go wrong

      When I invest in a company, all I can lose is my investment. That company can then take excessive risk or expose itself to legal or financial penalties and I'm completely shielded. As long as the people losing money are creditors, that doesn't matter (they made a stupid investment). But in other cases, people who never agreed to take on that risk get stuck with it. The solution we use these days is then to put a complex system of regulations in place to make sure companies don't misbehave. I'm not sure that's a good solution. It's not written in stone that investor risk should be limited to the amount of the investment, and it didn't use to be, for example for banks.

      But it's well documented that bailouts and insurance have a perverse effect of encouraging investors (and whoever) to do less due diligence, and invest in things that are a bad idea.

      Even without bailouts, investors still have a perverse interest to do less due dilligence and invest in companies that take excessive risks, because their upside is unlimited but their downside is limited to just their investment.

    226. Re:Good by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      No, I think I understand you. By the way, have you ever tried this in real life? It is slow, hard slog to find another counterparty. You can spend hours to weeks to find the right party. By that time prices may have moved or maybe the opportunity you are looking for has vanished. Rarely are there exactly the same number of people who want to buy and sell the exact same thing at the exact same price.

      With no middle man the market comes to a standstill. This has been true since the days of Plato who recommended shepherds leave their sheep at market with a physically feeble middle man because they would be more productive in the fields. This is true today, where I have empirical studies quantifying the impact of illiquidity.

    227. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      HFT is not speculation. It is the exact opposite. HFTers are market makers, not speculators.

      You're half-wrong here. Market makers like to be as quick as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. There are far too many non-market makers doing HFT speculatively. That is what's causing problems. Even market makers are participating in split second speculation activities, compounding the issue.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    228. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that's like, just your opinion man!

    229. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As usual Rockoon, it is you who is sounding like a blathering idot and that is why I downmodded your parent post. You are trying to defend an indefensible position. I'll give you credit for that. Very bootstrappy of you. Sounds to me that you are somehow heavily invested in HFT and that this is a direct attack on your livelihood. I'd defend that myself. You'll lose though because I know, you know, and everyone else here knows that there is something iherently wrong with HFT. Most of us can't extacly put our finger on it but it just feels wrong. It also has a reek of bullshit to it. When you have to resort in your arguments to just namecalling, then that is a sure sign to you that you need to shut the hell up because you've lost. I hope you learned something today.

    230. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, that's true. Really true. You nailed that right on the head.

      But, bear with me here, HFT have done one thing that has been to the benefit of mankind: They're competition to the previous set of scumbags who did the exact same thing, but at not-quite as fast speeds. It's bottomed out the payout of this scam. They're infinitely greedy, there's more than one of them, so they're all trying to eat each other's lunch and the amount of money extracted from the system via arbitrage has been reduced.

      And the old boys that used to get rich on this process have a TON of money and they're in bed with the lawmakers, both at the government and at the exchanges. So there are a lot of proposed laws and rules out there that are trying to get things to go back to "the good ol' days".

      So, you know, be careful with how you eradicate HFT. They may be ticks, but they've decimated the rat population.

    231. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So he cheated then. See you said because he cheated that let him take advantage of the system but then that somehow allowed every player in the system to recieve the information at the same time. But they didn't get it all at the same time. He got it first and that is the only reason he succeeded. This is HFT is garbage. Everyone knows something is wrong with it but don't know how to express that. I know when something smells rotten, it can't be good for ya and this smells rotten as hell. You can throw all the 1/N quantum math BS at us all you want but I'm afraid you're just trying to paint a turd. It's still a turd even if it's a pretty one. Your math is trying to make the system logically correct but that ignores reality. If the system senses a change, it doesn't dampen the ripples like theory, it causes all the servers to hammer the system to snatch the trade before the other guy and inflates the market. That is why everyone sees the market is so volatile these days. When the HFTers are done extracting all that they can, they collapse that bubble they blew for themselves and us regular folks get to take the fallout from that. Also since you want to bring some physics into this, you claiming that homogenized prices across the market is a good thing is the same as me advocating for entropy. You only have value if you have a potential between markets. How does someone make a profit if the prices are the same everywhere? Again it smells like shit.

    232. Re:Good by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      So, a thief who steals as much as an HFT corporation is also fine? Without the metric of social value, there is little or no point to many of the laws we have, especially the ones we think of as 'good'. I'd posit that if the social value of HFT is on par with grand theft, it should be outlawed, and for the same reason.

      Well, my point is that markets (and in particular capital markets) are fundamentally about profit and nothing else. If you want to impose some additional system of values, be it social, ethical, religious (yes, there is such a thing in capital markets) ones, it has to be done from outside the 'free market' mentality. Because of that it amounts to extra regulation, so whether it is good or bad becomes a hot button issue in the US in general and on /. in particular and I chose to refrain from expressing a preference in a post that was more about facts.

      Well, I can't honestly say I'm worried about hot button issues, and I wouldn't say I strayed from facts, either.

      You are correct, little things like ethics, and 'doing the right thing' often have a financial cost, however small it might be. Just as not 'doing the right thing' will have a social cost, which can be surprisingly large at times. This, coupled with the irrational belief that a free market is any better than communism, does lead to some ridiculous discussions. See, communism and the free market do have at least one thing in common: they're both models which look good on paper, but do not take human flaws into consideration. And if you don't take those flaws into consideration, they will show themselves, usually in the most horrible ways.

      For a look at the failings of the free (or unregulated) market, take a moment to read about a little thing called phossy jaw. And in response to the comment "Ah, but that wasn't truly a free market - the consumers didn't have enough information or influence." First, the problem was known (and solved!) for at least 5 decades, with employees dying on a regular basis before changes were made to improve employee health. Second, when the problem was first addressed, the companies in question were making about 20% dividends, and the industry is still around a century after they stopped poisoning their employees (mainly due to regulation). Third, please find me a free market today that works the way the model predicts, and isn't literally destroying people in the process, merely to maximize profits.

      Models are wonderful things, even bad (or incomplete) models. But using models with known flaws doesn't lead to happy endings.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    233. Re: Good by smaddox · · Score: 1

      If the intent is to curb HFT, just put a minimum hold time of 5 minutes. Or, if you want sanity in the stock market, put a minimum holding time of 24 hours. HFT is profiting off of legal loopholes, and nothing else. It doesn't take a complicated algorithm to determine that you can make a profit as a middle man when one person is selling at 10.0, and another person is buying at 10.2.

    234. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      You're obviously a smart guy--as evidenced by your low id number...

      Uh, thanks. But I've seen a number of true idiots with lower IDs, so it doesn't say much. ;-)

      ... but I always cringe when sweeping generalizations are made about what will happen given changes to tax code...

      Yeah, but Slashdot is optimized for sweeping generalizations. If you get too specific, then there are a near infinite number of people available to nit-pick, most of them of marginal intelligence. (Granted, there are a few real geniuses here.) Besides, this way all of us get to pretend to be experts at everything.

      ... and when people say "Way too much of our economy is tied into the stock market."

      Yeah, but I'm not just parroting. I actually believe it. Whenever I hear "the economy" instead of "the stock market", I cringe. Companies make hiring, layoff, product development, supply logistics, and production plans (just to name a few) based on "the economy", meaning the stock market. They don't do so arbitrarily. It actually affects them, either directly, or through anticipation of competitors/suppliers/distributors reactions.

      Things actually got worse when ETFs were introduced, tying the market closer together in artificial ways. Pull up any high volume stock and compare it to an ETF that tracks DOW Jones or S&P. Don't tell me that healthy markets do that.

      And it's not just the stock market. For instance, the derivatives markets provided the environment (petri-dish) for the housing market bubble and bust. It would NOT have happened otherwise. Derivatives aren't inherently bad, but they provide an efficient way to tie things together that ought not move together. They make economies more complicated, and introduce systemic risk.

      Economies adapt, as they are really just aspects of human desires and the activity people engage to fill those desires based on their tradeoffs or costs. Economies do not rely on any particular market.

      I disagree. Economies adapt to the markets they have available to them. They are shaped by these markets. People optimize their actions based on costs and tradeoffs... but these in turn are often molded directly by the shape of the market, and not just the actions of other market participants.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    235. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1
      Context. You need to read context. Here, I'll help:

      by StripedCow (776465)
      If the intent is to tax people on trade volume, then why not tax per volume traded? Geez.

      by gd2shoe (747932)
      Because volume can be pretty darn arbitrary. [etc]

      Followed by more banter.

      Based on the context, we're not discussing the 0.03% tax that the main article is talking about. We're jabbering about StripedCow's idea of taxing volume.

      Please enjoy your +5 informative. It was given to you by mods who also did not follow context.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    236. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      People conflate "rich people" with "anything that happens on the stock market". And any tax introduced will grow over time, and never go away.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    237. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Thank you for proving that reading comprehension isn't entirely dead on the Internet. I was losing hope.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    238. Re:Good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      It's exactly the same thing as when one of my neighbors has a TV they want to sell for $10, and I buy it and sell it to a friend across the river for $11. Without my knowledge the neighbor might not have sold it at all.

      No, it's not the same, because with HFT the buyer is not across the river, he's in the very same stock exchange. He will see the TV set for sale, whether you meddle in the affair or not. Thus all you've done is made your "friend" pay a dollar more than he otherwise would have to, pocketing said dollar yourself.

      There are ways within this system to cheat, but arbitrage per se is not cheating, it's implementing the system of equilibrating the markets.

      But we aren't talking about arbitraging between markets. We're talking about a single market, a single stock exchange. And while there's value in arbitraging between points of time - essentially storing resources when they're plentiful and releasing them when they're scarce - we're talking about microseconds here.

      As for von Rothschild, you do realize that that was basically insider trading? As is HFT. They're both based on some market participants having information that has not yet have had a chance to become public knowledge. That is the problem with HFT: someone is using their special position in the market to do trades Joe Average possibly couldn't. That's cheating, so why shouldn't Joe use his special position of sheer numbers to have his representatives shut it off?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    239. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      It's true, I've blathered on beyond all sensibility. There's just so much misinformation and folks believing what the unedumacted media say about this stuff, forgetting the nearly nobody in the media has ever so much as taken an Economics course.

      Case in point - analysis has shown that the flash crash in May 2010 was not caused by HFT (the PDF linked below talks about this in several places). It was in fact greatly moderated by HFT, until the HFT traders went past their own circuit breakers and withdrew from the market. Then, after a five minute 'rest' period instituted by the SEC, the HFT went back to work and everything was back to normal within 20 minutes. But ask anybody who reads the 'news', and they'll spout the media line that HFT caused the flash crash.

      TFA provides pretty good evidence:
      1) profits per trade are down by some 90% (IIRC what TFA said);
      2) actual revenues are down by a factor of three according to the PDF below;
      3) many institutions have left the business or gone bust because they couldn't compete as the market matured;
      4) HFT has become an essential element of almost all market activity - according to SEC, 68% of large cap stock trades are made using HFT (this last item is in the link below);
      5) 'Everybody' is now doing it - your neighborhood broker uses HFT to complete your trade of 10 shares of IBM.

      IOW, HFT has transitioned from being the hot new way to make $zillions to the new combination of the ticker tape and the market makers. (but 'tis true, there are several kinds of HFT.)

      And SEC is considering _requiring_ HFT traders to stay in the market during 'flash' events, because they are instrumental in reducing the impact of those events. (again, read the PDF, all the way through.)

      These are all classic elements of a busted tech bubble. From Econ 102, the interesting thing about tech bubbles (which HFT certainly exemplifies) is that in the bubble the majority of the original players - sometimes 99%, sometimes less, drop out, are merged out of existence, or otherwise leave the market; and ten years later, _almost without exception_ the market is more than four times the size as it was at the peak of the bubble.

      This was posted by someone else, and covers the topic pretty well. (I had to click the download link from the apparent PDF, then read it from the file manager - YMMV).

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    240. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      The short-termism here is the market speaking.

      Yes, the market. Not society, and not real investors. We've permitted a market to develop that doesn't value real world results or true economy, only what money can be sucked out of it. Even if we need a market, we don't need one of this shape. If it's a necessary evil, then let's minimize the evil and maximize the good.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    241. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      1. See This PDF.
      2. Economic policy is (generally, or rather a subset of) social policy. There are lots of papers out there showing that using taxation to accomplish a social (or economic) objective is rife with unintended consequences and perverse incentives. Just as a direct example, according to the PDF above, both theoretical and empirical research has shown that imposing a transaction tax on trades has the effect of reducing liquidity, increasing volatility, increasing the cost of trades for retail customers, and reduces stock prices substantially. These are generally the opposite of the desired effect.

      Not to mention that this also drives the market to other jurisdictions - when Sweden imposed a 1% transaction tax they lost over 60% of their market to London, and even after eliminating the tax, 20 years later those customers (and jobs) have never returned.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    242. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I suggest you read this PDF, which was posted by someone else but has some very good information. It's quite an education. (I had trouble opening, had to download it.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    243. Re:Good by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      You didn't demonstrate what I asked you to demonstrate. You just listed a bunch of ways HFT might be beneficial. Demonstrate that it cannot and will not amplify a crash like you claim.

    244. Re:Good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Whenever there is a tax there are forms to be filled out, reports to be filed and audits to be done. Which frequently ends up costing vast sums of money.

      Not in this case, since the exchange can simply add the tax to every transaction like stores do VAT. And frankly, in most of the civilized world "doing your taxes" amounts to receiving a report from the tax department - they already have all the relevant data, so of course they can and, in the interests of enforcement, must, do your taxes for you - so it really shouldn't be a costly affair in any case.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    245. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Read the PDF. The evidence is in the PDF. One example from the paper: the May 2010 crash was not caused by HFT. Its effect was _moderated_ by HFT, until the HFT traders couldn't take any more and got out of the market. That's when things went south. The SEC stopped trading for five minutes to give time for things to settle out, and when trading started back up the HFT were instrumental in bringing things back to normal within 20 minutes.

        I won't argue that HFT has a potential for exacerbating things under certain circumstances - though the evidence is that it is much more likely to moderate things according to the research cited in the paper - and the exchanges and regulators have put in place mechanisms to deal with those events, such as the five minute halt cited, and per-stock 'circuit breakers' that can stop trading in any stock when movement goes outside of reasonable bounds. They've also instituted other mechanisms to prevent various abuses that have always been there, but were also exploited on the smaller time scales of HFT. It was much more likely to occur back when the algorithms were primitive, the regulations were not in place, and the number of different algorithms was small.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    246. Re:Good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I suggest you read this PDF, which was posted by someone else but has some very good information.

      I suggest that you answer the arguments presented, rather than expect any readers of this discussion to read long external PDFs. Or were you counting on that they wouldn't and simply assume that it would back you, since you linked to it?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    247. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 1

      It brings liquidity, which is good, but it has tended to move the market in unreasonable (and sometimes dangerous) ways.

      Harm for how long? A few minutes at most. Are you claiming that there's genuine harm coming from a market that might be off for a few seconds to a few minutes?

      HFT doesn't lead to good price discovery, it obscures it.

      And your basis for this claim is? I'll just have to disagree.

      When talking about long-term stewardship of institutions, we really need to move away from unreasonable earnings expectations every quarter. When the focus of the market is on ever narrowing periods of time, corporations simply cannot properly invest in the future. Yes, some corporations are lead by unusual people who can leave market panic behind them and truly lead... but most companies are run by very smart idiots.

      Well, if we're going to speak of long term institutions and investing in the future, perhaps we should speak of those long term institutions which undermine investing in the future, such as, Too Big To Fail, social safety nets, publicly funded R&D, and the widespread use of Other Peoples' Money whenever a problem shows up. As I see it, we've removed most long term risk and as a result we've removed most incentive for long term planning and investing.

      The question for the rest of us is: what is the social value? Wall Street has some social value, but it also has considerable social expense.

      Bullshit. What social expense? In markets, pretty much the only social expense is externalities. And being traded on a stock market doesn't magically make a company have higher externalities that it would otherwise have.

      My take is that if you removed stock markets, you'd lose that bit of social value, but keep the alleged social expenses.

      Sometimes we forget that. We also tend to forget that "the markets" are still based upon similar principles that brought us the great depression.

      Principles like "Let's screw with the productive people so that we can make society better." "Let's eliminate all long term risk and then complain when no one plans for the future any more (or when as in the stock market crash of 1929, reality intrudes)." "What we're doing isn't working. That means we didn't do it hard enough!" You mean those sorts of principles?

      We need to keep in mind that the stock market crash was as bad as it was because of how delusional the market participants became. They were throwing money at anything that moved without regard for any long term profitability. That sort of insane risk ignorance is common to many market crashes. Here, the disease is the cure. Delusion gives way when real money gets lost.

      When the market crashed, corporations, banks, and investment groups collapsed. Much of that imaginary wealth vanished. Sure, that sucked, but what made it worse was the same people who were making short-sighted decisions about such investments, then made short-sighted decisions about how to fix things. For example, assuming that one could get back to that wealth by imposing restrictions on foreign trade or merely by talking things up.

      Stock/commodity/bond markets are not capitalism. They are merely outgrowths of one particular variation on capitalism. They're finicky, hard to properly balance, and break if you try to exert too much control.

      Then let's not break these markets by trying to control them! Remember that breaking a functioning market (especially on the flimsy pretexts given elsewhere in this discussion for the assault on HFT) is itself a "social expense". I'd say it's a rather considerable one because there's not much of a limit to how you can apply that process to anything that someone doesn't like.

    248. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 1

      The same wisdom that said that CDO's, CDS's and other three letter scams shouldn't be regulated. How did that work out?

      It's worth noting here that CDOs and CDSs were regulated and remain so. That regulation didn't prevent the "scams" from happening.

    249. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 1

      Why? What ever happened to free speech? People can't bitch unless they have the approval from khallow, regulator of the Internet?

      To the glue factory with you! I will not tolerate uppityness on my internet!

      I was speaking of this from an ethical point of view. If one looks at the actual complaints about HFT, it falls into two categories: complaints about general (and dubious) investment or brokerage practices (such as fronting or insider trading) which have nothing to do with HFT or attributing ridiculously superhuman properties to HFT such as being able to sense when you're about to make a mouse click and initiate a trade.

      So what possible harm can he do? Why won't YOU leave him alone and let him bitch?

      If all he does is bitch and his ignorance doesn't find its way onto my computer screen or into the rules for my market, then I'm fine with it. But that doesn't seem to be happening here.

    250. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I suggest you read this PDF, which was posted by someone else but has some very good information.

      I suggest that you answer the arguments presented, rather than expect any readers of this discussion to read long external PDFs. Or were you counting on that they wouldn't and simply assume that it would back you, since you linked to it?

      Why? I answered the arguments multiple times on this thread, and folks asked for citations. So there's a citation, that incorporates another 40 or so citations of actual, real, research by actual, real, university researchers who actually know something. the PDF is also, for those who actually want to learn something, a pretty substantive piece of educational material in its own right, which was originally linked by someone else who thought folks might actually want to learn something.

      I can only beat a dead horse so many times before I get bored.

      Bah.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    251. Re:Good by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Evidence is insufficient, your have made statements that are so confident you need proof. Your position may be correct but the confidence with which you have stated it is simply too strong. You are running counter to the position of the regulators and economists and doing so while supremely confident.

    252. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      If you read the PDF, you'll see that I'm very much in line with the regulators and economists, although taking a slightly different perspective (I look at the global markets as a complex adaptive system, which is a bit past the standard econometric models, which amount to a special case of the CAS model.) The regulators have looked at things like transaction taxes (as discussed in the infamous PDF), and found that the empirical evidence shows such taxes would have the opposite effect of the one desired - they decrease liquidity and increase volatility. And the exchanges and regulators established some mechanisms (mostly a few years ago) to deal with the potential issues, which so far seem to work pretty well.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    253. Re:Good by um...+Lucas · · Score: 1

      I don't pat myself on the back over slashdot ratings.... But since you're hung up on it, even without this +5, i got two others in this thread. Maybe I'll sleep better tonight.

      But to the topic, a 0.03% tax on the dollar value of the transaction IS a tax on volume. And there's no fairer way to do it. A per share tax will disproportionately hit, yes, lower priced issues, just as another poster alluded to. And HFT is not centered on low dollar priced issues, it's centered on highly liquid shares, which can have any price. So you'd want a tax on the dollar volume, whether someones HFT'ing penny stocks or Berkshire Hathaway, it's all the same, adds the same noise for all the other investors and traders.

    254. Re:Good by um...+Lucas · · Score: 1

      The designated market makers do a lot of trading, yes, as part of their function, which is a special roll. But the HFT crowd are not market makers - when people talk about High Frequency Trading, they're not referring to market makers, they're referring to the crowd that throws 1000 orders out there only to cancel them a tenth of second later.

    255. Re:Good by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      The SEC report on the May 6th crash said the exact opposite to what you have just said.

      www.sec.gov/news/studies/2010/marketevents-report.pdf

      So now you are just being dishonest. What exactly is the dog that you have in this race? Who pays your wages?

    256. Re:Good by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      You're saying that in so far as the iron was unmined, and as such, the actual quantity / quality unknown, the people who accepted it as collateral should not have?

      Assuming that the poster isn't exaggerating, perhaps they should have asked to see a business plan, considered the history of the mining company to judge their ability to extract the ore, considered the fact that the company is the king's crony should anyone dare call to collect, etc. You know, things that require research and footwork, that can't be spit out by an algorithm.

      essentially it's a bluff on a good day, a fraudulent transaction on a bad day

      The only way for anyone to find out would be for the company to fuck up a trade and lose money. As long as they can pay back their loans it won't matter to any of their lenders if the iron never leaves the ground. The fun begins when the lenders try to collect, I'd guess the mining company would just hand them shovels and tell them to get to work.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    257. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 1

      See, communism and the free market do have at least one thing in common: they're both models which look good on paper, but do not take human flaws into consideration.

      The difference is that it doesn't matter in markets, if the participants are flawed. They can be flawed in other ways and still have a functioning market.

      For example, there is a tremendous, unregulated, global market out there where the vast majority of the traders involved have the intellect of a rutabaga. We call this market, "pollination". Yet despite the incredibly grave flaws of the traders in this market, it has worked for many tens of millions of years, starting in the age of the dinosaurs.

    258. Re:Good by smellotron · · Score: 1

      Another thing about HFT: It's existence dramatically limits the average investor (John Q. Public) from profiting on these differences between share price and perceived value: Even if he logs into E-trade the moment he has the idea, the HFTs have had the data for 10 minutes or more and have already profited 10,000 times and killed the average investor's profits.

      If John Q. Public's "ideas" are observations that anyone in the public can see, they don't exactly sound like ideas to me. More like, John heard some news, and he wants to trade on it... but oh no! Everyone else in the market heard the same news, and the information is now priced into the market. From his perspective (and to his chagrin), the efficient market hypothesis holds.

      Now, if John Q. Public has an idea that really isn't some momentum borne out of news—something that's genuinely novel—then he can trade against all of the liquidity available in the market. And when he's right, he'll make a boatload of cash. But the market makers he trade with won't care, because they'll have long since captured their <$0.01/share profit and moved on.

    259. Re:Good by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      But to the topic, a 0.03% tax on the dollar value of the transaction IS a tax on volume.

      Volume
      The number of shares, bonds or contracts traded for a security or on a whole exchange for a given period.

      Volume is a well defined market term. It is entirely independent from price. Please don't make things up.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    260. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Sigh. No, it didn't. From the report you cited, which was done a few months after the event, before the research that the PDF I cited was done, which corrects some of the early analysis as a result of better knowledge and research:

      At 2:32 p.m., against this backdrop of unusually high volatility and thinning liquidity, a large
      fundamental5 trader (a mutual fund complex) initiated a sell program to sell a total of 75,000 E-
      Mini contracts (valued at approximately $4.1 billion) as a hedge to an existing equity position.

      This order was similar to one performed a few months earlier, which was spread over six hours with no effect on the market. This time it was spread over only 20 minutes - big mistake. This is not HFT, in fact it was partly manual. It involved the 'largest net change in daily position of any trader in the E-mini in the last year.'
      Note that the original erroneous Sell algorithm was still pushing the stock orders throughout the period, including attempts during the five second halt.
      Much of the further decline was driven by algorithmic trading - only some of which is HFT. Every algorithm that sees the market falling off a cliff is going to try to get out before it's too late. The HFTs (as we later learned) were sopping up a lot of that sell side activity, until they too hit their stop levels.

      Whether trading decisions are based on human judgment or a computer algorithm, and
      whether trades occur once a minute or thousands of times each second, fair and orderly
      markets require that the standard for robust, accessible, and timely market data be set quite
      high. Although we do not believe significant market data delays were the primary factor in
      causing the events of May 6, our analyses of that day reveal the extent to which the actions of
      market participants can be influenced by uncertainty about, or delays in, market data.

      The Sell Algorithm used by the large Fundamental Seller responded to the increased volume
      by increasing the rate at which it was feeding the orders into the market, even though orders
      that it already sent to the market were arguably not yet fully absorbed by fundamental buyers
      or cross-market arbitrageurs. In fact, especially in times of significant volatility high trading
      volume is not a reliable indicator of market liquidity.

      Once the HFTs and other buyers had sopped up all possible liquidity, with further sell pressure from the Seller, there was nowhere to go. At that point the HFTs, along with algorithmic non-HFT, EFTs, and everyone else, began to unload the positions that they had taken, which combined with the continuing Seller activity, took the market farther down.

      But the key fact is this demonstration of how effectively the market was able to recover:

      time to react and verify the integrity of their data and systems, buy-side and sell-side interest
      returned and an orderly price discovery process began to function. By approximately 3:00
      p.m., most securities had reverted back to trading at prices reflecting true consensus values.

      From the PDF I cited earlier:

      Over the past decade, HFT has increased sharply, and liquidity has steadily improved. But correlation is not necessarily causation. Empirically, the challenge is to measure the incremental effect of HFT beyond other changes in equity markets. The best papers for this purpose isolate market structure changes that facilitate HFT. Virtually every time a market structure change results in more HFT, liquidity and market quality have improved because liquidity suppliers are better able to adjust their quotes in response to new information.

      Based on the vast majority of the empirical work to date, HFT and automated, competing markets improve market liquidity, reduce trading costs, and make stock prices more efficient. Better liquidity lowers the cost of equity capi

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    261. Re:Good by smellotron · · Score: 1

      Maybe nobody else wants that apple? Jon wants the apple for $0.50, but since he's pissed at flash maybe he only offers to buy it for $0.49 from flash. Since flash doesn't want the apple, he may fold and sell it at a loss to Jon, before another apple seller shows up and pushes the market price down further.

      In other words, the only way that Jon is hurt by flash is if he caves in and willingly buys the apple for more than the original asking price.

      But you're right about the getting-popped-in-the-nose part. As our society has become de-personalized, more and more actions occur which would not be acceptable face-to-face. This is probably a long-term problem, though it has nothing to do with HFT.

    262. Re:Good by smellotron · · Score: 1

      And flash yanks his offer back before it completes and walks away no worse for the wear.

      Is this Schroedinger's apple? Either flash bought the apple from Jim, or he didn't. If he has already bought it, he takes on the risk of short-term apple volatility. If he has not already bought it, then Jon is free to buy it from Jim.

    263. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Value and price"? You must be joking, there are only differences on price signals.

      Front-running has everything to do with HFT. HFT is using specialised access to create differential information tiers across exchange users, and is exploring the implementation of the exchange to derive information about other participants that they should not know.

    264. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Legion? I picked Chaboud et al from your link. It has been peer-reviewed, but no-one bothered to spell-check?
      > "braking orders"

    265. Re:Good by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      If I can have my trades cancelled when I screw up, I'll make big money too. HFT smartness doesn't lie in fundamental business model, but in bribing the system to play by their rules. It's like calling Calvin smart when he wins in calvinball.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    266. Re:Good by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Liquidity is all very nice. But a pathological definition of liquidity drives HFT.

      The definition of liquidity that make sense for most people is "probability of getting a fair trade opportunity before I can finish a cup of coffee". I agree that the higher this "liquidity", the better the market and the economy, though there is a natural upper bound on its value because it is defined as probability i.e. 1. HFT does nothing to increase liquidity by this definition.

      The pathological definition of liquidity is "inverse of time in which I can get a fair trade". With nanosecond trade, you get a "liquidity" value as a billion Hz. Picosecond trade gives you a value 10^12 Hz. There is no upper bound. A relentless pursuit of a higher number gives an illusion that HFT increases liquidity, which is a good thing.

      With the latter definition, liquidity stops being a good thing once its value is higher than 0.001 i.e. a fair trade in 1000 seconds.

      PS : "Fair" trade is subjective, and intentionally so.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    267. Re:Good by Too+Much+Noise · · Score: 1

      Since you want to touch on this ... heck, I have karma to burn, so why not?

      Third, please find me a free market today that works the way the model predicts, and isn't literally destroying people in the process, merely to maximize profits.

      As you well pointed out, this is not a realistic option. And the cause is simple, profit maximization misalignment with other motivations - in fact, it's inherent in free markets, where competing interests (for profit) motivate everything. Hence various side effects like negative externalities, worker exploitation, slavery, and so on.

      My personal take on this is that while a real-world free market would be a system with too much complexity and chaotic behaviour to represent in a general model, simplified models with free-market rules can easily show ways in which the system reaches ... inefficient outcomes, like unfortunate equilibrium points (such as monopolies) or destructive oscillating behaviour (boom-bust cycles). It does not even require human flaws to get there, game theoretical models with rational agents will reach the same problem, due to inherent limitations such as imperfect information and unstable equilibria. Socialism in turn, besides not really being the alternative, has its own issues, some specific and some not so much (the unstable equilibrium of requiring every participant to have motivations aligned with a common good for one). The tricky part is, imho, the fact that legislating the market is not a true solution - introduce into the game the motivations of legislators and the issue of technical expertise required for tuning the system and you'll just run into a different 'who watches the watchers' class of problems.

      To close this rant, IMHO markets need to be seen through dynamic models where there are often (if not always) segments to be watched for developments of bad outcomes - and I'm including regulators in the definition of 'markets'. Having a blind faith in either 'free' or 'regulated' is a lazy man's easy way out of an argument that is too complex to tackle, as market efficiency is something that requires vigilance from all participants, much like liberty.

    268. Re:Good by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      You failed to explain how this "arbitrage" by Rothschild benefited the market / economy / mankind at large.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    269. Re:Good by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Right, Wall Street Journal talking about HFT. Hope you trust North Korea's national mass media for justification of their "nuclear program" and theatricals about it.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    270. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 2

      In the current implementation of the stock market, yes. HFT routinely places insincere bids and yanks them back before a transaction completes. If they REALLY screw up, because of their size they get a do-over where all transactions in a stock get rolled back.

    271. Re:Good by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Again, I didn't ask for evidence and a contradictory view point, I asked for proof.

      Have you gone line by line through say 10% of the HFT algorithms used and formally demonstrated that there are no common hidden assumptions.

      Since I don't value liquidity in the stock market and believe in democratisation of access (that is abolishing special privileged access to stock and commodities markets via financial barriers and requiring markets to trade with a single percentage price per trade, essentially abolishing brokers, HFT, the whole swathe of middle men) on moral grounds it doesn't really matter what evidence you present that HFT improves liquidity. You aren't going to convince me it is a good thing by that route. As such I invite you to stop trying to convince me HFT is a good thing. I believe anyone should simply be able to go and put an order on the stock market via the internet under the same terms. There should be no middle men. Or we could abolish limited liability and associated government interventions in the market, either is fine with me, although I think the first idea is a better idea if we want companies larger than a grapefruit.

      I also don't care much about volatility, I would rather a volatile market in which the mean price reflected the long term value (which I know is discounting short term information) better than a stable price which is reflective of the true day to day value with rapid but stable short term correction but does not force people to think long term. I know this will discourage people investing in the stock market, I would offset this by changing the way we tax shares and reduce taxation on real long term investment. Basically if you can show that you have held a share for over six months, a year, multiple years I would make cap gain and dividend taxes on those shares much lower than they currently are.

      It isn't that your case isn't plausible. Nor am I convinced either way on HFT effect on liquidity or the spread. From what I can tell with enough players in the market they do increase the information reflected in the price. That isn't what I'm calling you on.

      I suggest instead of trying to convincing me that HFT is a good thing (which will never work) you focus on giving me proof that a large subset of HFT are not making the same assumptions. After all that is what I'm actually calling you on. Otherwise I am just going to assume you are one of the middle men acting as a parasite on the rest of us.

    272. Re:Good by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      The problem with this view is that as the whole market moves to HFT, we just translated all of our problems to a smaller timescale!
      And there is an even bigger problem, because as dt->0, the time to take a decision becomes so small that the decision will be less informed and less intelligent.

      So what you are saying is that we don't particularly need HFT as implemented now, but we need a difference in timescale to solve market instabilities. That may be so. But, first, I need proof that these chosen timescales actually have this stabilizing behavior (and not actually pose a threat to stable markets). And further, I need a justification that some parties get access to a trading system that operates in the smaller timescales (HFT), while others do not. Because that simply is not fair, and in the end will lead either to an agglutination of money and power, OR to an accumulation of traders at the smallest technically possible timescale (and remember that according to your own beliefs, at a single timescale the markets are unstable).

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    273. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was speaking of this from an ethical point of view. If one looks at the actual complaints about HFT, it falls into two categories: complaints about general (and dubious) investment or brokerage practices (such as fronting or insider trading) which have nothing to do with HFT or attributing ridiculously superhuman properties to HFT such as being able to sense when you're about to make a mouse click and initiate a trade.

      What's the ethical problem here? So people are stupid and say stupid things. Stupid people still have rights and the freedom to say things, even stupid things, is one of them.

      If all he does is bitch and his ignorance doesn't find its way onto my computer screen or into the rules for my market, then I'm fine with it. But that doesn't seem to be happening here.

      First, his ignorance didn't find its way to your computer. YOU found your way to his ignorance. Nobody, certainly no government, put a gun to your head forcing you to get online, browse slashdot, click on posts, and read them.

      Second, it's not just "your" market. He's a part of the market too, and I am too, and everyone else. I do love how people like you who say you love the free market, but the moment somebody on the free market does/say something you don't like, you cry and show your true colors of wanting to control others.

    274. Re:Good by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Nice post. I will perhaps quote you when explaining HFT to other if that ok.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    275. Re:Good by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. As a low value trader back when i had to use a phone to make orders I paid far less than that in broker fees. $1000 of shares typically attracted about $1 of fees.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    276. Re:Good by smellotron · · Score: 1

      HFT routinely places insincere bids and yanks them back before a transaction completes.

      That is not the same as the Schroedinger's apple that you described above. Trading on the stock market is atomic: If HFT yanks a bid before anyone else hits it, then no transaction has started and so nothing completes. If HFT tries to yank a bid that has already been hit, then they fail. Their bid has already executed, you can't cancel it once the exchange has matched it with another order.

      If they REALLY screw up, because of their size they get a do-over where all transactions in a stock get rolled back.

      If they really screw up, then they bleed money on ~150 NYSE-listed stocks for 45 minutes. All trades that occur within the predefined price limits stand, and all trades that occur outside of those price limits are busted because that's what NYSE has decided in advance. There may have been some shady "takesies backsies" in the past. To my knowledge, all of that stopped on the Flash Crash day, when traders realized how scary it was to allow the exchange to roll back trades on a discretionary basis. Knight Capital's debacle is a direct counterexample to your claim. Can you provide any recent examples of discretionary rollbacks in the stock market?

    277. Re:Good by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      Kickass explanation. When someone asks about HFT, I'll send them the link to your post.

    278. Re:Good by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      PROFIT IS THE ONLY THING ... but HFT does not support that, it supports bleeding out value that the system would like to bank, and it changes the dynamics of trading from "is this a good firm to invest in" to "is there a greater fool out there for me to sell to tomorrow (or in 3 seconds)". The first question serves the market system by making viability and good practice part of the business model while the latter simply tries to skim the tops of the bumps in a way that distorts the markets. The politicians who get this are the one who would be pushing back against HFT with every tool they can, including a microtax. The ones who don't, well, don't blame me, I didn't vote for them. And a 0.03% microtax collected hundreds of times a day on a single trader is completely sufficient to change the equation for a computer model that is trying for .02% return on each trade, but won't make traders working on fundamentals even blink, since they are trying for 10% on a long term dividends and growth basis.

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    279. Re:Good by torroid · · Score: 1

      Transaction taxes are not currency controls.

    280. Re:Good by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      The purpose of the market is to let firms raise capital for their use. The intermediate trading that occurs between IPO and buy-back is to reduce risk to the investor (who can move money to get out while the getting is good). HFT does not serve those purposes, it is the equivalent of scraping the edge of coins to gather the precious metal, which is why we used to put ridges on the edges of our coins (back when they were not fiat currency). The microtax will serve the same function, protecting the fundamentals.

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    281. Re:Good by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      This is the best description evah ... of course this is only half the problem. The other is that large investors, ones whose trades would move the market, have to replace their "I'll buy that apple" orders with "I'll buy one 1-millionth of an apple" (repeated 1M times) to foil the fleet footed fekkers.

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    282. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The shareholders are SYMBIOTES. They want their profit, but they buy shares for those profits. HFT is not a market that benefits the company being traded because shares are often not held for anywhere near long enough to actually be used by that business. Profit made from share buying and selling is not conductive to the existence of the business, but benefits the stock exchange (through tax/charges). Thus the spirit of shareholding is lost. If we were acting solely in traded businesses best interests, really we should not be able to trade more than once a day so that a business can actually get that traded money onto a turnover sheet, but that would kill a vast market of day traders, and probably kill the stock exchange itself, never mind HFT.

    283. Re:Good by kmoser · · Score: 1

      The tax should be on frequency (perhaps in addition to volume). A one-time purchase of several million shares is not HFT, but multiple purchases of millions of shares over a short period is HFT. The longer the time between purchases, the lower the tax would be.

    284. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will just create more new ways to rig the system. Think using options to move markets then buy/sell. Just more of it in new ways. We have to not bail out and not put in shock absorbers. And end FDIC. Etc...

    285. Re:Good by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      I agree with that in general. I believe in the need for regulation, not just because of human flaws, but to address the known causes for some negative outcomes in the market. Too much regulation can be bad, as well.

      A good example is the bank industry. After the stock market crash of 1929, a number of regulations were put in place to reduce the risk of such a thing happening (as easily) again. Years went by, the regulations were seen as too restrictive, and they were removed. Along comes 2008, and major banks around the world fail. Canada, which didn't remove those restrictive laws, suffered from having their banks make somewhat less profit that year.

      Again, simplified models which don't accurately match the real world aren't bad - just use them for predictions and not as a plan for what we should try to shoehorn the real world into.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    286. Re:Good by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      See, communism and the free market do have at least one thing in common: they're both models which look good on paper, but do not take human flaws into consideration.

      The difference is that it doesn't matter in markets, if the participants are flawed. They can be flawed in other ways and still have a functioning market. For example, there is a tremendous, unregulated, global market out there where the vast majority of the traders involved have the intellect of a rutabaga. We call this market, "pollination". Yet despite the incredibly grave flaws of the traders in this market, it has worked for many tens of millions of years, starting in the age of the dinosaurs.

      That's all well and good, but remember that when plants fail in an area, that's just like you becoming bankrupt because the US market crashed. Maybe something with a little more control would make sense. Don't worry, just like plants will spread back into that area over time, you will be able to regain some of your savings after a while, too.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    287. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      That's not HFT, that's market making. And it will happen regardless of the tax.
      Instead of the apple spread being 0.50/0.51, it'll be 0.47/0.53, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN AFFORD OTHERWISE.

      It also means microseconds still count.

      The tax would have only unintended consequences.

      FYI The France transaction tax EXEMPTED market makers (even HFT), because of this.

    288. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      HFT makes money, and it comes from somewhere, true. But to go further you need to examine how it goes without HFT...

      Back in the day, there were specialists who kept the books and made markets. The specialists would keep the markets at a $0.25 spread, because specialists aren't efficient - they're slow, and they can only remain in business if they make a profit. This means when any two Joe Publics want to trade, they pay the specialist $0.25.

      Today, the same two Joe Publics pay the HFT company $0.01

      Now, explain your point again?

    289. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Quit spreading lies.

      Traders, including HFT, only get trades broken when they execute outside regulations - i.e. outside the clearly erroneous. Usually it's NOT IN FAVOR of the HFT trader - since the HFT traders are usually the fastest to react to changing market conditions. Note that HFT is usually trading spreads - i.e. buying one things and selling another at approximately the same time. When a break occurs, the HFT has only half the trade, either the long or the short position - which is exposing them to market fluctuations, and is very risky.

      HFT is a difficult business: it's not like you can simply set up shop, buy a few co-located servers and money starts rolling in.

      You have to have a real trading strategy.

    290. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      A very sane comment.

      Germany has it right - last I heard you have to mark orders as "algorithmic" if they are HFT or similar. They the regulators can look at the orders, cancels and trades and determine correctly what effect they have on the market.

      As opposed to just guessing and listening to rumor - much of which is spread by the old traders who used to make money from the 25c spreads and the like.

    291. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      "There is frequently no human involvement at all in HFT. It's just scanning bids and asks and offering just a hair above each."

      You don't need HFT for this. Just submit a pegged order, and it'll sit at or better than the inside, until it fills. The exchange will keep its price updated for you.

      See, for example, http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/content/productsservices/trading/MMPegOrder_factsheet.pdf

      Your argument is ridiculous, because anyone can see the (liquid) markets are really at $0.01 spreads almost the entire time. This is the best you can get (in stocks). Get rid of the HFT market maker and you necessarily get rid of the $0.01 spread.

    292. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      It would be vastly cheaper to do away with the high speed nonsense and just have a clearing house system. They would still need to be paid, but the hardware and people to support it would be vastly less expensive.

    293. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Why do you think HFT traders trading, for example, Apple is harmful to Apple?

      They already made the IPO, the shares are on the street... HFT itself only responds to price changes - it doesn't cause them. Manipulation is illegal, and is punished with fines and possibly being expelled from the exchanges - death for a trading company.

      So again, explain how HFT is harmful to the stocks it trades?

    294. Re:Good by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Ticker tape didn't increase the speed or accuracy of trades. It allowed someone not on the trading floor to have access closer to the trading floor. That is a good thing. Having multiple networks and screwing a class of investors (the casual ones) in favor of the professional traders is a bad thing.

      HFT may be necessary because of how the trading system evolved, but it's a bad thing. It would be "better" to rebuild the trading system from scratch. A random 10ms to 5 minute hold on all trades, or a 1% fee on canceled orders would end HFT (what everyone else means, not your personal pet definition) pretty fast. But a batched system where trades were executed simultaneously every 10 seconds, 10 minutes, or whatever (variable, based on volumes), where you submit a buy/sell, then it is executed the trade after next, with no cancellations after the trade window before yours is reached would level the playing field for all traders.

      The system is designed to favor the rich professional traders well above the casual traders. That's inherently unfair, and being unfair to deprive someone of money is often fraud. The system is designed to be as fraudulent as possible without triggering an investigation. HFT is no better than front running, it just gets a nod because it would be too disruptive to enforce market fairness with the inherently unfair market we inherited.

    295. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You _do_ know that these days, we have these things called 'computers', that can automate the process of some guy providing liquidity by buying and selling things for an eighth of a point, right?

      HFT needs to be compared to a decent computer system, not Bob the Broker on the exchange.

    296. Re: Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The key flaw in your statement is that you assume that the politician understands HFT and doesn't think it's scary.

    297. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Firstly, you're making some assumptions that a aren't supported. E.g. that competition in speed is bad. That's not new either: the invention of the phone helped increase trading volume and efficiency tremendously. Speed is important to all trades, too, on different scales, which is why liquidity is important.

      Secondly, when you talk about being cheaper - cheaper to whom? All the infrastructure costs are an expense to some parties and an income to others. Who are you trying to protect?
      It's not the small long term investor, or the mutual fund that many people have, or the pension fund, because they have the best prices they can get: less than 1c (in stocks) from actual value. In fact, the investor gets shafted more by his broker.
      So seriously, whose costs are you trying to mitigate with your clearing house idea?
      It wouldn't benefit society anyway - it would horribly reduce the traded volumes, and increase inefficiency. Decreased efficiency means some people are being shafted more than necessary.

    298. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brokers who are market makers still do this. They use micro shorts within their clientele, and then apply arbitrage to the real exchange to extract the 'fees' anyway. All part of the rigged game.

      The HFT guys are bottom feeders, eeking out wins using massive numbers of trades and speed of light arbitrage. Mostly they are cheating each other out of millicents. If you only trade infrequently you aren't going to get nailed that often, or for that much, because they keep each other honest.

      So, the HFT guys will get a lot less from you than your broker will cheat you out of using his own liquidity and better knowledge of the market. Then he charges you a commission for the trade to boot!

    299. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      But funding a company has alway been a gamble.
      Plus most shares are in street name, and aren't being bought or sold by the funded company.
      How do you expect the system to work without allowing shareholders to sell? If you do allow them to sell, you have to have buyers.
      Lastly you haven't articulated a downside to side trading.
      Funds that hold stocks buy and sell them to hedge against risk. If they're not allowed to then risk necessarily increases, as do fees to compensate, and returns go down. Open markets are a good thing.

    300. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      I'm against the tax for the reasons that it will have only unintended consequences, such as inefficiency and reduced volumes. Most people don't really understand who bears the cost.

    301. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      That's complete nonsense HFT only trades off public info.
      Most HFT shops don't have any source of inside information. They aren't in a special position at the exchange - they use sources that anyone can obtain.
      And most HFT strategies DO trade many exchanges at once.
      You have no idea what you are talking about.

    302. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      There was an independant study done which explains the events much better. The biggest problem was NYSE had gotten very backed up because of a natural response to a huge put option on SPY: options market makers were hedging the options against other options and against shares. Unfortunately, NYSE was timestamping the feed messages on exit from the queue, not at the time the data was produced. Algorithms were unaware that the market data was delayed, and saw a difference in price between nyse prices and all other exchanges, hence they were trying to capture a price difference that did not really exist. THIS caused feedback.
      This can't happen now:
      1. The NYSE fixed their timestamping
      2. The exchanges implemented new rules called circuit breakers which halt trading in the event of a large price swing. This rule now triggers occasionally.

    303. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Everything you said is wrong.
      Knight nearly bankrupted themselves, hardly a blip on the market as a whole.
      The flash crash can't happen again, partly because of circuit breakers.
      HFT market makers have a legal obligation to keep bids and asks in the market, at great cost and risk to themselves. For taking on this risk they can profit quite well. If they fail their obligations they are fined etc. It's easy to lose big making markets.
      Orders are very rarely cancelled within milliseconds of being submitted. Repeatedly ordering and cancelling is called flickering and is a type of manipulation which is illegal and is monitored for by exchanges and the SEC. Manipulation is taken very seriously and can result in millions in fines.
      A reasonable percentage of mm orders have to fill, otherwise the exchanges levy extra fees, or worse.

      Stop spreading this bullshit. HFT is the reason the markets are so efficient: there is a 1c spread on most stocks now.

    304. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      I've analyzed large volumes of market data.
      Yhere is no evidence that such oscillations occur. If they did, an algorithm could easily make money from them, which would actually damp them.

    305. Re:Good by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Yes. The paper I referenced covered this topic quite well, including citations from a number of other researchers. But AFAICT none of the folks on this thread actually went to go read even the executive summary. One person maligned me for not providing citations, and then maligned me for providing one. At least one decided that since it was linked to by the WSJ it must be evil propaganda.

      Sigh. One does tire of what passes for discourse these days. I'm no great shakes and I blather on too long, but I at least _try_ to assemble a reasoned argument, and base it on my own research as well as outside references. But then, XKCD today ... :)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    306. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      You can. There isn't any restriction saying you can't sell to another party.
      You can even do it at an exchange - submit a limit order instead of a market order at the inside market. Then you're in the role of a market maker.
      HFT can't force you to trade with them. There is just a high probability because they are VERY good at providing liquidity.

    307. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      No - it actually is between different exchanges. It's impossible to do arbitrage in one symbol on one exchange.
      If you're buying and selling a stock at different times, that's not risk free and it isn't arbitrage. It's also hard to see how it's bad.

    308. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      If these are the experts then we're in trouble. Market makers don't suddenly rebalance large positions as described. In truth, market makers actually keep any positions they accrue hedged so that price changes don't lose them money. They do this all through trading - they don't build up a significant position and then suddenly dump it. They would suffer repeated losses and would soon be out of business.
      Evidence? Consider this: market makers are almost always on the wrong side of the deal: when aggressors are buying it's because they think the price will go up - enough traders doing this is pretty good evidence that they are correct - it could be because another related instrument has already moved. Not only that, but enough sentiment can CAUSE the price to move. Whatever the reason, the market maker now has the wrong side of the trade - if they don't hedge it quickly it'll likely turn into a loss. If they just built up positions those positions would lose more money than the money made in the spreads. Market making is hard.
      Other independent studies have concluded that market makers have been significantly helpful during falling markets, and helped prevent worse scenarios.

    309. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      Firstly, you're making some assumptions that a aren't supported. E.g. that competition in speed is bad.

      I assume it is expensive. Consider, if a quantum were imposed that rendered any latency below 5 seconds moot, instead of having to be in the same outrageously expensive data center as the exchange itself, you could colo anywhere in the world. Instead of the crazy tweaks to the network stack and such, a standard switch, nic, and driver would be fine. All of those costs represent inefficiency and in the case of the colo, rent seeking.

      Meanwhile, speed in the microsecond range is not really all that important when stocks are held, only when you want to turn the stock market into a casino does speed become a critical issue. Even a day trader should find minutes tolerable (unless he's put himself in a bad position he can't cover, in which case he has larger problems).

      You make the unproven assumption that trade volume is good for society.

    310. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, profit *is* all. "Short-term gains" is probably what you meant to write.

    311. Re:Good by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      At least one decided that since it was linked to by the WSJ it must be evil propaganda

      Wall Street is the one benefitting from HFT so obviously they publish biased documents supporting it. Any industry body advocates for itself, that advocacy becomes academically untrustworthy in sight of inherent conflict of interest. Facts mentioned therein are admissible, but you have been unable to answer simple questions (e.g. utility of Rothschild's arbitration) based on them.

      The very definition of "liquidity" used by stock market pundits is questionable, and distinct from a definition really useful for economy at large, detailed here.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    312. Re:Good by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Actually, studies show that increased volumes lead to higher prices, and smaller spreads lead to lower costs and increased volumes.
      HFT is like walmart - lower per unit profit, made up in volume.
      Microseconds are important to any arbitrage or hedge. Trying to impose some quantum will only add inefficiency and lead to higher cost of trading. I'm not sure what benefit you think society will get.

    313. Re:Good by sjames · · Score: 1

      If it's like Walmart, that's reason enough to give it the heave ho!

      Microseconds don't matter at all to human trading (and we do not yet grant machines the right to own property). They only matter if you are hoping to skim a penny or two before the real traders come to terms and keep it for themselves.

      The only proper cost to trading is the cost to maintain the clearinghouse, which is much less expensive if microseconds are rendered irrelevant and crapflooding from HFT is gone.

    314. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 1

      That's all well and good, but remember that when plants fail in an area, that's just like you becoming bankrupt because the US market crashed.

      And? The point here is that here we have a market which probably has been around longer than mammals have weighed over a kilogram. Which involves participants who have just evolved into their niches with no deliberate trading strategy whatsoever. And which has never been controlled.

      Yet it works.

      Don't worry, just like plants will spread back into that area over time, you will be able to regain some of your savings after a while, too.

      I haven't worried when I've lost savings in the past to market or economic turmoil (which aren't the same thing). So you don't have to be concerned here.

      And it's worth noting here that the failures that happen in pollination participants are not only natural, but result I think in a lot of the evolution of the market participants that is seen. There seems to be a similar effect in human systems. Namely, failure, such as bankruptcy, seems to be a very effective way to remove businesses that no longer work.

    315. Re:Good by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      There seems to be a similar effect in human systems. Namely, failure, such as bankruptcy, seems to be a very effective way to remove businesses that no longer work.

      Yes. In fact, it's so effective, it can seriously damage or destroy businesses that do work, too.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    316. Re:Good by khallow · · Score: 1

      In fact, it's so effective, it can seriously damage or destroy businesses that do work, too.

      I'm sure if you really look, you might be able to find an example of that. But don't confuse that with modern society's short sighted and ineffective efforts to remove future risk from society. I don't think it should be called "failure", if society rewards ignoring great risks and allows market participants to bail when a house of cards falls down.

    317. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't stop here. To beat the speed of light, all you need to do is pre-calculate many variants of the future. So when the data streams in, you only have to do a lookup (in stead of calculations) to know how to act on it. With the Big Data systems being grown everywhere, many based on GPU, this is already being done more and more.

      Big Data in a nut shell: from everybody's holiday pictures, derive what the favorite clothing colors of next season will be.

  2. Does anyone day trade anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Serious question: Does anyone know any day-traders? Everyone I used to know who did this gave up because of the robots.

    1. Re:Does anyone day trade anymore? by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Serious question: Does anyone know any day-traders? Everyone I used to know who did this gave up because of the robots.

      I don't know anyone that makes buggy whips either....

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Does anyone day trade anymore? by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      From what I gather, it has basically been outsourced to China (seriously).

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    3. Re:Does anyone day trade anymore? by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      I tried it for a little while, but basically gave up when I realized how many of my buys ended up looking like a little mark hovering slightly above a peak on the daily graph, and how many sells looked like a little mark just below the bottom. You had to zoom in to see the actual point on the graph where I made the transaction. I certainly seemed to have a knack for timing, it was quite incredible. I tried reversing my buying/selling decisions, but on those occasions I turned out to suddenly have perfect prediction capabilities (if I hadn't reversed them). Go figure.

      I still have this nagging feeling that I should be able to beat those robots at their own game, the price swings do suggest it should be possible, but I became just humble enough to stop trying.

    4. Re:Does anyone day trade anymore? by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Key - the markets are now 'scale-free' to a pretty good approximation. Instead of competing with the robots, find the time and price scale that you can operate in - look at information and price drivers that are at a larger/slower time scale than the HFT algorithms are interested in. Also, humans, men especially, tend to use too much emotion in trading decisions.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  3. If the policy makers astually traded by ebonum · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They would know that people who execute a lot of trades get big discounts. HUGE discounts. If you are doing more than 20,000 or 100,000 trades a month, you start to trade at a fraction of the cost of a normal investor.
    http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=commission&p=futures3

    With this fee structure, a HFT can get in and out and make money. A normal trader would lose money on the exact same trade. For the average guy, the trade might be profitable, but the trade commission is greater than the profit. Exchanges give a lot of incentives to traders who bring big volume.

    I have a major issue with a system where two different traders make the exact same trade, but one loses money while the other makes a profit.
    I'm not suggesting eliminating the lower fees for more active traders. I would like to see the gap between the highest commission and the lowest commission close. This simple change would work wonders to level the playing field. If the highest commission was limited to 130% of the lowest commission, the high frequency traders would lose most of their advantage.

    1. Re:If the policy makers astually traded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the system you have an issue with would involve an utterly miniscule difference between the two. I am not sure that is worth getting majorly upset over.

    2. Re:If the policy makers astually traded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you also want government to limit how much cheaper WD can sell hard drives to google instead of you?

    3. Re:If the policy makers astually traded by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      The discounts are quite often more than 100%, they can actually buy a stock, sell it at the same price, and make money. Guess where that money is coming from...

    4. Re:If the policy makers astually traded by AdmiralXyz · · Score: 1

      Person A: The government ought to regulate [X], because [reason].
      Person B: You idiot, do you also want the government to regulate [something completely unrelated to X where [reason] does not apply]?

      Is there a name for this specific argument? It's straw-manning I guess, but I see it often enough that it deserves to have its own name.

      --
      Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
    5. Re:If the policy makers astually traded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's just start by instituting a rule where a submitted trade cannot be withdrawn or canceled for one whole second after it's submitted. As silly as that sounds, it would solve everything.

    6. Re:If the policy makers astually traded by curunir · · Score: 1

      If the government had rules relating to how people's retirements could be invested in hard drives, then I think such rules would be warranted. Among other things, it's the rules for 401(k)s, IRAs and other such accounts that create a need for regulation in the financial markets.

      Also, hard drive manufacturers didn't come crying to the government for hundreds of billions of dollars claiming that their mistakes would otherwise crater the economy. When hard drive companies manage to cause an event with a title (and consequences) as compelling as "The Great Depression", it will also be time to regulate the hell out of them.

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
  4. The profits have been competed away by Bruce66423 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As economic theory would predict, the money that was being made by HFT isn't any more because more and more people are getting to play the same game. The virtue of HFT is the liquidity that it brings to the markets, but at the cost of possible software caused chaos, as we've seen on a few occasions. On the whole it's probably worth tolerating, because the alternative is likely to see 'regulation arbitrage' as players go round any new rules.

    1. Re:The profits have been competed away by gd2shoe · · Score: 3, Informative

      I believe we do need to address this somehow with regulations... but carefully. "Regulation arbitrage" is a very good term for the real complication here.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    2. Re:The profits have been competed away by wvmarle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed HFT trades with HFT, there is no money in that. Or at least not much, as they all chase the same fractions of a cent.

      The flash crashes as I understand are partly caused by all HFT systems using essentially the same algorithm, and as a result movements amplify really quickly. If there would be several radically different decision making algorithms in the market this shouldn't be much of a problem, as wrong decisions by one are taken advantage of by another, so the other can make a profit (directly punishing the bad decision of the one algorithm), and such market movements are smoothed out.

    3. Re:The profits have been competed away by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      A tax on every transaction would do the job. It doesn't have to be much, 0.01% or so will do - it eats away most if not all the profits made by HFT. And create a nice extra income for the government - must be welcome nowadays, especially as it's an easy sell of "taxing those evil bankers!"

    4. Re:The profits have been competed away by edgr · · Score: 2

      Good luck with that. Traders will just move to more friendly jurisdictions. Most HFT is in deriviatives, which any exchange can list anywhere in the world. Liquidity will decrease in the taxed markets and the spreads will widen by the amount of the tax, hurting anyone who wants to invest there.

    5. Re:The profits have been competed away by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      Why would flash crashes be a wrong decision for HFTs? I think they could trigger many stop loss orders of other traders, and in that way buy stocks for low prices.

    6. Re:The profits have been competed away by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      Except if the HFT firms get paid a commission per transaction which is higher than the tax. Guess who ends up really paying the tax.

    7. Re:The profits have been competed away by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      What happens is that HFTs cause flash crashes by selling large quantity of a stock when the price drops below a certain threshold. So, what happens is that HFT Computer A interprets its data as a signal to sell all of its stock in Company Z. This causes the price of the stock in Company Z to drop below the threshold for HFT Computer B, which then unloads all of its stock in Company Z. A cascade is triggered and many (or all) of the HFT computers sell the stock of Company A. Most of the time the signal which HFT Computer A interpreted as a signal to sell indicates that Company Z was several percentage points overvalued. All of the companies using the HFT computers downstream of HFT Computer A lose money because the stock price had dropped below what they had paid for stock in Company Z AND the stock in Company Z would be worth more than they sold it for based on an evaluation of Return On Investment*.



      *Calculating what Return On Investment one should get for one's money can be a tricky thing. My experience suggests that if your Return On Investment is over 5%, you have probably made a good investment and if it is over 10% you have certainly made a good investment. The main reason why a Return On Investment under 10% may not be a good investment is because of the "opportunity cost". If your money is invested at a 5% ROI when it could be invested at a 10% ROI you are losing 5% for the term of the investment. The risk of any investment with an ROI over 10% is high (at least going in, hindsight may tell us that the risk was actually low but that is only because of things that were not known in advance).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:The profits have been competed away by coofercat · · Score: 2

      Actually, Flash Crashes are as much a symptom of automated *slow* traders, like pension companies and such like. They make maybe one or two trades a week, they hold stock for a long time, and they (supposedly) do nice things for their customers (I personally disagree with that last bit, but I'd say people generally like pension companies, whereas they generally don't like HFTs).

      When a crash starts, the price of stock X drops below threshold Y which triggers many automated trading systems to dump the (large volumes of) stock they hold. This has a reinforcing effect on the downward trend. Thus, even more thresholds are reached and even more trading systems (and humans) dump stock, and so it goes on. In a weird way, if pension companies made a 100 trades a week instead of just one, then there'd be 100 different thresholds, and so 100 selling trades at different prices - which actually would slow down the crash speed. Keep going with that thought until you get to 1,000,000 trades per week ;-)

      Meanwhile, HFTs see the downward trend, sell stock somewhere else at a slightly higher price than you can see, then buy it back at the lower price in your market. They're actually not contributing to the downward trend, at least not in the significant way dumping tens of thousands of shares in one transaction does.

      In the last NY crash, I seem to remember some algo trader proudly saying "we turned everything off when we saw the crash happening". Actually, you don't want that, because it reduces liquidity, which means you won't get the tighter bid/ask spreads that you would if there was more liquidity. That means if you're desperate to sell, you'll end up selling at some horribly low price, rather than one just a bit lower than the last sale was made at. You can see this with some crazy share prices reported during the crash.

      If ever you happen to find yourself holding cash in a market that has no liquidity, then offer really low prices for stock. You'll get filled because someone will be stupid enough to sell at that price (maybe they made their money and they don't care). Then offer really high prices to sell it to someone else - assuming there's someone willing to buy, you'll make a tonne of money. This isn't arbitrage, and carries significant risks (which HFTs generally don't like),

      As for HFT vs. HFT - they're quite clever at spotting other players in the market. If they can beat them, they'll play, otherwise they'll move elsewhere. We may have run out of places to go, but that's only so long as the other stocks aren't suitable.

    9. Re:The profits have been competed away by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      And that commission of course comes out of the profit the trades make (the money comes from somewhere - and the only source of income for HFT is the margins they make on their transactions), and a transaction tax lowers profit, with that the room for such commissions.

    10. Re:The profits have been competed away by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      The commission is paid from other traders' transaction fees. You pay to trade, they get paid to trade. Unless the rules changed, I definitely remember day traders being able to buy and sell at the same price and end up with a profit back in the dot com craze.

    11. Re:The profits have been competed away by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      That sounds like broker fees - when you or me order a broker (or your bank) to buy or sell a stock.

      AFAIK these HFT are commissioned by the banks/brokers themselves (using money from depositors of course), not ordered by some third party, and as such there is no-one but themselves who could pay for a transaction fee.

    12. Re:The profits have been competed away by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, the chaos is also self-damping as other HFT algorithms pick up on the distortion and work the other side of it. After a couple of 'rings' the signal is gone.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    13. Re:The profits have been competed away by ax_42 · · Score: 1

      HFTs make money for themselves, so they will pay the tax/costs themselves. You don't go to an HFT firm to buy/sell/trade anything, you invest in them to do your gambling for you.

    14. Re:The profits have been competed away by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      Well, that is what they say, and pretty much it means that the HFTs themselves were using something like a stop loss order to protect their stocks.The problem is that this kind of orders even exists, and it can lead to market crashs even without HFTs: http://www.emarotta.com/stop-loss-orders-can-lose-money-quickly/
      People use stop loss orders to protect themselves for too large losses. They give the order to sell their stocks if the price drops below a certain value. But if too many do this, the selling of many stocks will cause the price to crash, and the people selling will sell for very low prices.
      It would be pretty easy for HFTs to abuse this, by pushing down the stock prices with some sale orders, triggering lots of stop loss orders and buying the cheap stocks right after that. They will get the stocks for a very low price, and can sell them later.

    15. Re:The profits have been competed away by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It would be pretty easy for HFTs to abuse this,...

      But very hard to do in a way that is not relatively easy to detect (that is, relative to other ways to do this). And this type of practice is already illegal.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  5. Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    May your HFT company burn in a fiery hell for all of the money it has stolen.

  6. It's only natural. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If HFT is the latest shtick in "providing liquidity", then it really is arbitrage. And by its very nature, do enough of that and the opportunities exhaust themselves. In fact, the infrastructure built to support HFT improves access for other traders, too.

    I think taxes may not be necessary, and probably would do more damage than good anyway. The big trouble with HFT isn't the trade volume, but the "probing" volume, offers made then withdrawn so quickly nobody can take'em.

    I'm with the NANEX bunch on this; simply require that offers be good for a minimum timespan so that completely fake offers are unaffordable, for someone might take the offer. That saves the cost and administrative overhead of another senseless tax that hits far wider than the problem it purports to solve, but then doesn't.

    1. Re:It's only natural. by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. It's not the only problem, or the only solution. But it does make sense, is fair, and doesn't harm legitimate market operations.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    2. Re:It's only natural. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      None of it has anything to do with liquidity at all. That's just someone tossing around markety words they don't understand.

      Of course HFT is arbitrage; arbitrage works by reallocating resources to where they're needed in the market. If you repeatedly buy low and sell high, the price of the low rises and the cost of the price of the high drops.

      HFT is a victim of its own success. By moving resources to where they're needed, there are fewer arbitrage possibilities. Naturally, we have to keep trading to keep the market efficiently allocated, but that HFT is subject to diminishing marginal returns was something you could see from a mile away.

      What's notable is that the value of performing HFT has dropped off without *any* government intervention. The market was completely self-regulating in this regard. It's been a tremendous boon to regular investors and regulators who have incredibly accurate stock prices to make decisions with, thanks to the traders. The traders got rich, so they're happy. Again, where is the terrible problem here?

    3. Re:It's only natural. by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ditto - Mod the grandparent up.

      The HFT's offer the best bids and asks (or else they wouldnt get any trades) -- there is nothing wrong with better prices for people looking to buy and sell -- really, there isn't -- it doesnt matter if some guy in the middle makes some money in the process - you are still getting a better price.

      Notice how most of the people that hate HFT's dont even understand the difference between bids and asks, and that often even the rare few that do show at least this minimum level of understanding they often confuse the two and imagine that bids are higher than asks.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re:It's only natural. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it could be more simple here in Europe most exchanges already had a rules before the US started regulating it.
      The rule is really simple: The only orders you are allowed to send to the market are those you are willing/intending to execute/trade on.

      Thus sending in an order and removing it a very short time later to trick another algorithm from a competitor to adjust its prices is not allowed.

    5. Re:It's only natural. by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      I don't like HFT. It makes me very uneasy. I don't believe it adds a net social value to the system. It adds liquidity at the cost of obscuring real price discovery, and causes bizarre, sometimes dangerous price movements. And yes, I do understand the difference between bids and asks.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  7. Tax should be based on holding time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HFT = 99,99% tax
    long term investment = 0,01%

    1. Re:Tax should be based on holding time by camperdave · · Score: 1

      How do you determine holding time? If I buy 3 this morning, sell 2, buy another 5 at noon, sell 11, buy 4, sell 2, buy 3, what have I held, and how long have I held it? Is it first in, last out, or first in, first out? Do I get a tax refund for the time I held a negative quantity?

      It's not a simple problem, and the solution is not going to be simple either.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    2. Re:Tax should be based on holding time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FIFO.
      Daily trading = you don't trust the corp you have share in. You are only gambling and trying to make money out of nothing. => tax 90%
      No tax refund. You're playing against a society and Society in general.

  8. Front Running by ka9dgx · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The main reason for HFT is to "front run" the market, to game the traditional customers of the price discovery mechanism, and make a risk-less profit. This dis-incentivises the market for everyone else, who see it as corruption and move their money elsewhere.

    The big picture though is one of a big liquidity event, in which the velocity of money is rapidly falling as everyone tries to save up enough cash to ride out the oncoming greater depression. The rapid printing of money is showing up in the 17% growth of the M3 Money Supply, but is getting hoarded up by banks and corporations as rapidly as it's getting created. This is the only thing keeping inflation from at bay, for now.

    Once the Tsunami of dollars starts to find its way to main street, and chasing goods and services, an inflationary wave will hit us all, and we'll learn to get used to $10/gallon gasoline, and they start to remember it fondly not much later.

    1. Re:Front Running by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here fuel already is at $8.4 per gallon.
      ($10 is 7.47€, 1 US gallon is 3.8 liters, price of typical fuel (mostly tax) is 1.65€/liter in Finland.)

    2. Re:Front Running by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rapid printing of money is showing up in the 17% growth of the M3 Money Supply [nowandfutures.com], but is getting hoarded up by banks and corporations as rapidly as it's getting created.

      It's also going into the equity markets and housing markets. The stock markets aren't going up because businesses are going better. They're going up because there isn't any other place to put the money. High yield equities have been taking off. for example, because you can make 3% or more buying Big Corp as opposed to The housing market is improving, not because John and Jane Public are buying, but because hedge funds and private equity are buying them up with all that cheap Fed money with the prospect of renting and speculation.

      The money being "printed" by the Fed is doing very little for the average guy and it's just making the (super) rich even richer.

    3. Re:Front Running by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

      If NGDP growth was any good, the Fed would not be injecting money into the system. But NGDP growth is very low in the US, and flat at best in Europe. And given that wages are sticky, low NGDP growth leads to major trouble.

      If you are really so afraid of inflation, invest in TIPS, and make a killing if you are right. As it is, market consensus is that inflation will remain under the 2% target, not over. Seems like an amazing opportunity with someone with your economic beliefs.

    4. Re:Front Running by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

      Why was this modded down? "Inflation Protection" and US Treasury don't go together any more. The official inflation numbers are bogus. The Fed and Treasury have painted themselves into a corner, there is no way they can ever admit to inflation, lest interest rates rise and cause our debt to crush us.

    5. Re:Front Running by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Hoarding cash would be the absolute worst thing you could possibly do if you were worried about a "greater depression". Worse than spending all your cash on funyuns and diet coke. Your cash is worth something now, if there's a huge wave of inflation coming it would be worth a fraction of that value in the future.

    6. Re:Front Running by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why was this modded down?

      roman_mir has a, let's just say colorful, posting history. It has led to his karma to start his posts off lower than an AC

      You know how a politician may say nice things once in a while, but the people still hate him for all his past bullshit? It's kind of like that.

    7. Re:Front Running by fulldecent · · Score: 1

      >> The rapid printing of money is showing up in the 17% growth of the M3 Money Supply [nowandfutures.com],

      You are reading the chart wrong (left/right axis). M3 growth includes debt which is deflating and is at about 5%, this is "money". M1 growth is double digits and this is just paper (of course, paper cash is insignificant).

      Interested skeptics read http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/money-supply-charts

      --

      -- I was raised on the command line, bitch

    8. Re:Front Running by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does this money hit Main Street without wage inflation? It's the middle class that drives inflation.

    9. Re:Front Running by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1
    10. Re:Front Running by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Nah. The Federal inflation numbers are checked by all sorts of external studies like the MIT Million Price Index. Look it up.

      Any reasonable validation efforts have shown that they are correct.

    11. Re:Front Running by flatt · · Score: 1

      Once again, the conservative, funyun and diet coke-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor.

    12. Re:Front Running by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Well what would you have us do? You want me to buy useless stuff now to promote the overall economy? I don't _want_ those things, and that is something people can't grasp. What I, and a lot of other people want is future security of our accumulated wealth. And if hoarding our capital is the only way to do it, then fine. However, the government won't even allow us to have that, what with all the print inflation. By doing that they're actively _forcing_ us to put money into the stock market and/or spend it in the here and now.

      I plan on leaving wealth to my offspring, thank you very much. Stuff I will have worked for and accumulated over my lifespan. And I couldn't care less if that is something that Keynesian followers don't like.

    13. Re:Front Running by slashdotjunker · · Score: 1

      The link you posted does not indicate a 17% growth of M3. Read the chart more carefully. Annual change is the blue line which is 7.5%.

    14. Re:Front Running by subreality · · Score: 1

      You don't have to waste your money buying physical stuff you don't need - you can invest it in anything that's not denominated in dollars, such as commodities.

    15. Re:Front Running by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why was this modded down?

      As someone else pointed out roman_mir's comments generally aren't modded down (this being an example) but rather they start out with a low score because he has terrible karma here on slashdot.

      How did he come to get terrible karma here? Two reasons, which lead to many of his past comments being moderated down into oblivion. For some reason he seems incapable of learning from his past mistakes and will likely forever have terrible karma here.

      One, his comments are generally inflammatory, and not seeking to catalyze a discussion but rather to incite people. He makes a habit of playing (at best) fast and loose with the facts and pretty well never keeps a conversation going with anyone who dares to suggest he might be wrong.

      Two, roman_mir doesn't come to slashdot to read about or discuss technology or anything related to it. Roman_mir comes to slashdot for the purpose of recruiting people to his religious movement. Every post he has ever written has had undertones from his religion worked into it. This means that in the rare case where he is not inflammatory he is almost without fail offtopic.

      There is also something of a meta-reason - he has at least one known sock puppet that he uses to try to get around the system. Sock puppetry is very highly frowned upon here on slashdot.

  9. Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "As the founder of HFT firm Tower Research Capital Mark Gorton puts it..." His name is THAT close to Gordon. He must be mighty annoyed.

  10. Fix 'delayed prices' scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The share tax in France and Italy doesn't affect us investors much. But if you're in to make a 30% return, you don't care about the 0.03%+0.03% buy and sell taxes anyway. It's only the traders, and they add nothing to the investment market, they're just skimming off some of the margin between buyer and seller.

    IMHO, the biggest problem with the stock markets is delayed quotes. The big guys have the real time prices, the small guys have a fake price, from 20 minutes ago. This is a big problem with European stock exchanges. How can you have a market if you're lying to people about the current prices?!

    That's what I'd like to see ended. The two tier price quote system.

    The stock markets make us little investors deliberately ignorant of the true price, they then sell that ignorance as 'real-time-quotes- to the big guys. They should be forced to charge one fee to everyone for the same quotes, and stop deliberately deceiving investors into the market.

    1. Re:Fix 'delayed prices' scam by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The share tax in France and Italy doesn't affect us investors much. But if you're in to make a 30% return, you don't care about the 0.03%+0.03% buy and sell taxes anyway. It's only the traders, and they add nothing to the investment market, they're just skimming off some of the margin between buyer and seller.

      Thank you! I was going to to mention that the British tax doesn't seem to have killed the London Stock Exchange, but I wasn't aware that the tax also existed in France and Italy. As often happens in economic discussions (e.g. about health care) some people endlessly pontificate about what should happen according to their simplistic pet theory, and ignore the empirical evidence.

    2. Re:Fix 'delayed prices' scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is a single fee for real time market data and everyone can buy such a feed.

      It will cost several thousand euros per month, but the costs are pretty reasonable since a lot of infrastructure needs to be maintained by the exchange for currently a small user base. No, the internet cannot handle real-time market data yet, total volume for a day is not that bad, but the traffic is extremely bursty.

      At the moment this feed is send on two 10 Gbit lines. On several multicast streams. The data format for the feed is also completely open, you can even access the documentation on the exchanges' website without even having to register an account. See:
              http://www.eurexchange.com/exchange-en/technology/new-trading-architecture/system-documentation/176058/?frag=176068

      There are even open source products for parsing this feed.

    3. Re:Fix 'delayed prices' scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The exemptions are pretty wide in the UK

    4. Re:Fix 'delayed prices' scam by scyph · · Score: 1

      IMHO, the biggest problem with the stock markets is delayed quotes. The big guys have the real time prices, the small guys have a fake price, from 20 minutes ago. This is a big problem with European stock exchanges. How can you have a market if you're lying to people about the current prices?!

      Of course you can't trade a profit on delayed prices. But, why do you have to trade on delayed prices as 'the little guy'?

      Places like MoneyAM and ADVFN have been providing real-time prices for either free, or £5/month, since 1999 (ADVFN) and 2002 (MoneyAM).

  11. Re:If the policy makers actually traded by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

    If the policy makers actually traded . . . they wouldn't be taxing it.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  12. Level the playing field by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Beste way to kill off HFT and really level the playing field is to mandate a price per trade. The highest volume traders paying the same price per trade as the lowest volume traders would eliminate a significant portion of their advantage.

    This way you don't get volume advantages - and only the HFTs that have a real competitive advantage due to strategy or technology will survive.

    1. Re:Level the playing field by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      Better to apply a price per "NOT trade". One of the main ways that HFT works to skim money is to submit and cancel thousands of orders.

      For example, say you put in an order to buy 100 shares of company 'X' at $10 per share. Suppose a big investment bank wants to dump 100 shares at $9.90. In a fair market, you both submit your orders, your buy is executed at $9.90 and the $10 surplus is yours.
      With HFT, these guys submit their sell order at $10.50, then immediately cancel and re-submit at $10.49, then $10.48. Rinse and repeat down until they hit your $10. Basically, HFT just allowed the bank to take $10 that would be yours in an honest market. If we applied a tiny fee to orders that were not executed, it would go a long way to leveling the playing field,

    2. Re:Level the playing field by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know that at least with major exchanges in Europe you cannot actually do this.

      The exchange has throttles in place which limits the amount of command you may submit to the exchange, it is far more valuable for a trader to use the room within this throttle limit for important orders which actually have a chance to trade.

      Also in your example you have put in the buy order of $10 per share first, so you have time priority. The bank putting in a sell order for $9.90 later has worse time priority, so it will trade at your price of $10 per share. The price on the first order counts, at least for exchanges operating in time priority order, there are a small number of exchanges which have other rules.

  13. NSA Insider Trading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NSA gets a raw internet tap, so presumably they must get lots of insider investment tips too *. I wonder how many analysts invest their stocks based on company emails? All that insider information, company reports sent to stock exchanges before being published, CEO's getting copies from the CFO before the annual report. The commercial data in there must be worth billions.

    * NSA spokeswoman Judith Emmel, confirmed that *all* intercepted email data is filtered by machine, then trained analysts to categorize it as useful/worthless. So they're certainly reading it all, even if most is thrown away by a spam filter.

    1. Re:NSA Insider Trading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NSA 'internet tap' in basically a insider trader / blackmail program...

    2. Re:NSA Insider Trading by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      Where do you think many founders of HFT programs came from? Let's just say I know more than a few folks who commute regularly from Baltimore to New York.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  14. HFT doesn't help liquidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Traders don't help liquidity, they aren't buying a stock unless it can be resold, the liquidity is there already or the HFT guys can't HFT!

    The spreads don't widen by the amount of the tax, we have these taxes in France and Italy. If anything spreads are tighter because the HFT guys aren't in that market picking off the middle ground.

  15. Re:If the policy makers actually traded by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    Policy makers do trade. They just trade on inside information and make 20%-50% gains on every trade. You are a peon so you have to rely on blind luck to get your .03% or on a good day 10%.

    Look at the reports, trading exploding 2 seconds before things being announced, etc... All of congress trades, they just have very different information and rules than you do.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  16. Wall Street assholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Something like 60% of the active volume of trades are HFT that is lasting less than a second. That isn't investing in a company that is gambling.

    The other problem is the economy is growing at maybe 1% a year and the entire stock market is doing 10-15% Sure some companies are growing that way but there is a major disconnect between how wall street is growing and the rest of the world. If Wall street is supposed to be about individual company profits how can it be growing so far beyond the companies that are represented in it?

    The market is going up because of all the Fed money being printed.

    The big Wall Street firms, hedge funds and private equity can borrow at the super cheap Fed rate and then they take that money and put it into the equity markets and the housing markets.

    That's why all the talk on CNBC lately has been about when the Fed is going to "Taper".

    That's got all those people shitting bricks.

    Here's the sucky part - when the Fed does taper, all of those fuckers will be out (thanks HFT!) and we poor slobs will be left holding the bag with losses - again.

    So, after we little people get screwed, those same mega rich folks will point fingers at us saying "You should have worked harder and saved more!"

    I did that and you wiped my savings out you fucker! And it's gonna happen again.

  17. "The easy money's gone" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So much for "the rich work hard for their money".

  18. HFT is organized theft by Required+Snark · · Score: 5, Insightful
    HFT divides the financial universe into insiders and outsiders. The resources required to compete are beyond the means of any but the most sophisticated and connected organizations. Any system that requires low millisecond access to the data stream is overtly biased towards the few. If you think you can participate by buying stock in companies that do this and share the profit you are showing gross stupidity. It's just like making hedge fund money; by definition, anyone below the top .1% is locked out.

    Real world value does not change in millisecond increments, except for earthquakes and nuclear holocaust. Therefor the profit in HFT is extracted by decreasing value for non-HFC entities (that would be you). It's analogous to entropy.

    The value extracted by the insiders disproportionately degrades the system for everyone else. It's equivalent to oil production in the Nigerian delta. The people who live there have a horribly destroyed environment, and people far away make huge profits.

    HFT is vulnerable to mistakes and deliberate manipulation. Can you say Flash Crash? Remember, there is no real time way to tell the difference between a misbehaving algorithm and a deliberate market manipulation or a hostile attack. It's not even clear that you can differentiate after the event is over.

    Anyone with a shred of self preservation should be scared shitless by this situation. For Wall Street HFT is a sacred institution, and any attempt to reign in the abuse is treated as an attempt to defile a holy site. They own the casino, and given the centrality of international banking institutions, everyone is forced to bet no matter what.

    Wall Street types should be treated like meth freaks with rabies, because that's how they behave. They are actively dismantling the world economy for their own individual gain, and if they are not stopped there will be nothing left to save.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
    1. Re:HFT is organized theft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      snark:

      brilliant concise and brutal.

      please post every time there is a financial story on /.

    2. Re:HFT is organized theft by coofercat · · Score: 1

      Walmart (or large supermarket of your choice) divides the shopping universe into insiders and outsiders. The resources to compete are beyond the means of any but the most sophisticated and connected organisations... (etc).

      This is how captialism works - you start up, you make some money, you make barriers to entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barriers_to_entry) for other potential entrants to the market.

      I'm not saying HFT is all good, but they're not actually all-bad either. See my other comment above for my thoughts on pension companies causing flash crashes at much, if not more than HFTs. Pension companies make maybe one or two trades a week, and hold stock for a long time. It's hard to call them HFTs, and yet they're a significant part of the problem.

      As for your comments on Wall Street types - I don't disagree with that at all. Making money at all costs isn't good for anyone. However, ethics and responsibility are hard to engender on people who have none.

    3. Re:HFT is organized theft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought they were coke-heads. At least, that's the way it seems in all the 80's movies.

    4. Re:HFT is organized theft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real world value does not change in millisecond increments, except for earthquakes and nuclear holocaust.

      Even then, it takes more than milliseconds for seismic waves to propagate, and ICBMs can take half an hour to reach their target.

    5. Re:HFT is organized theft by ax_42 · · Score: 1

      This is how captialism works - you start up, you make some money, you make barriers to entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barriers_to_entry) for other potential entrants to the market.

      As for your comments on Wall Street types - I don't disagree with that at all. Making money at all costs isn't good for anyone. However, ethics and responsibility are hard to engender on people who have none.

      Capitalism, red of blood and claw, allows you to build barriers and abuse monopoly powers. We (and I use "we" loosely here) have long ago identified that unfettered capitalism actually worsens society's prosperity (the rich get very rich, the poor generally revolt, causing much death, mayhem and bloodshed). Hence, we regulate, and disallow abusive behaviour, and lock up the worst offenders (or so I thought, been proved wrong too often recently).

      Take a look at the income and asset distribution in the USA, land of the free. It's so frighteningly skewed towards the 0.1% it's not even funny. And the entire top 50% are in favour of keeping the status quo (ie the actually think they'll make it to the 0.1% one day -- pipe dream). How the hell is this sustainable??

    6. Re:HFT is organized theft by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Real world value does not change in millisecond increments, except for earthquakes and nuclear holocaust

      Oh yes they do. When someone buys or sells a large chunk of stock, the value changes instantly. And that change needs to be propagated through markets and exchanges. Exchanges try to do this themselves but they aren't very good at it, so HFT makes a profit by doing it faster.

      Therefor the profit in HFT is extracted by decreasing value for non-HFC entities (that would be you). It's analogous to entropy.

      Yes, it does. But if you get rid of HFT profits, they just go to the seller, the buyer, the exchange, or are split between them. Why is that any better? And with HFT, all the other participants in the market have a strong incentive to keep HFT profits down by making the system more efficient. That's why we have hit "peak HFT": high profits from HFT were a temporary situation that is correcting itself.

      And speaking of "entropy" (or perhaps better "friction losses"), if we get a transaction tax, it will ultimately come out of your and my pocket no matter what.

    7. Re:HFT is organized theft by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Yes, capitalism suck donkey ass. It is the worst system imaginable except for everything else that has been tried.

    8. Re:HFT is organized theft by newslash.formatblows · · Score: 1

      Yes - the profits would go to the buyer or seller (I don't see the exchange's profits changing, but maybe they would), but they are the only ones *providing* something. The HFT is just a middleman. I'm OK with him not making anything since he's not bringing anything to the party.

    9. Re:HFT is organized theft by mc6809e · · Score: 1

      HFT divides the financial universe into insiders and outsiders. The resources required to compete are beyond the means of any but the most sophisticated and connected organizations.

      This was true long before HFT.

      Large organizations have individuals that spend their entire day (sometimes their entire career) analyzing one company, its market, the resources it needs to continue operations, and all sorts of other difficult to obtain information.

      Anyone that thinks they can beat these institutions and their experts by looking at pretty 3d charts is a fool.

    10. Re:HFT is organized theft by stenvar · · Score: 1

      But neither buyer, nor seller, nor the exchange are passive bystanders. In order for HFT to profit, there need to be two exchanges with different prices involved. Someone needs to make those prices consistent. Either HFT can do it or the exchange can do it. Right now, the exchange does most of it, but HFT picks up a small difference, presumably because exchanges don't bother investing in doing a better job. If buyers or sellers lose too much through this, they'll just do business elsewhere. HFT keeps the exchanges in line, and exchanges keep HFT in line, and buyers and sellers keep both in line. I don't see a huge problem here. We had a temporary bubble in HFT, and that seems to be correcting itself.

  19. Oh please spare me by gelfling · · Score: 2

    First off, politicians who claim that everything that ever will be invented has been invented is worse than retarded. Second, they're just looking for tax money. That's it. It's just about the money. If they could tax talking about taxes they would.

    1. Re:Oh please spare me by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I was debating posting this as a separate post because I did not see any comments that related to what I wanted to say. However, the point you made is a different but similar point to mine. HFT became a big deal because the speed of computers and communication was accelerating fast enough that those who could get the latest and greatest of both were able to move enough faster than everyone else to skim some money off of the transactions. However, we have now reached a point where computer and communication speeds are now so much faster than all other signals that enough people are able to make HFTs that the amount of money to be made from doing HFTs is approaching the point of being no higher than the actual value they bring to the market. In addition, the risks of these automate HFT systems is starting to become apparent (yes, lots of other people got hurt as well, but several HFT companies took a bath in the last couple of flash crashes caused by HFT systems). Without government intervention it will not be much longer until the ROI on HFTs drops to the point where it will not be worth it to invest in the equipment to do so, except as an adjunct to some other trading business.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Oh please spare me by c0lo · · Score: 1

      First off, politicians who claim that everything that ever will be invented has been invented is worse than retarded.

      Of course not, especially in HFT. Once the field is leveled, the time is ripe for a new round of "taking some risk to have a competitive edge". I can almost bet that the banksters will invest in some "optimized trading algorithms" and we are bound to see some spectacular flash crashes in the near future.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    3. Re:Oh please spare me by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, the possibility of people doing HFT is what forces the other market players to make sure that their systems are as close to efficient as possible for them. Existing studies on the effects of HFT cannot address that question because we have never had a situation where all market participants have access to high speed computers but some are effectively prohibited from using them.

  20. Tulip Bulbs by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Tulip bulbs traded at the speed of light.

  21. tax ok but I'd rather have synchronous trading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this tax solution is ok, but it just gives the government revenue for no good reason. I'd rather use a system where all trades have a minimum time slice that is synchronous, so if you try to trade at sub intervals it will not complete the trade until the end of the interval.
    I would further propose that this interval be something large like 5-10 seconds. This would cause everyone to calm the heck down.
    And it would have the nice side effect of simplifying matching up trades without a market maker.
    I am not aware of any downside to it, but I welcome criticism.

  22. Every half hour is NOT High Frequency. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So I don't know why you seem to be bringing in Brokering into a HFT discussion.

    Do you often talk irelevant bollocks when tax is involved?

  23. Bollocks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would be just as "valid" to claim that the murderer or rapist being caught is the problem of laws being against murder and rape.

    The financial system ALLOWED that to take place.

    If that financial system did not allow trades based on imaginations, then the mining company would have had to actually mine something.

    That they are corrupt means they would skim off every cent they could manage, but they would have to pay people enough to eat and sleep.

    But by using what the financial industry allows to be profitable, they can make profit WITHOUT SPENDING A PENNY on mining.

  24. Shouldn't you read the news first? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't you read the news first rather than spout "YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHAT'S GOING ON FIRST"?

    If you don't know anything about what's going on, then why can you claim "bullshit" on someone else's claim? Just because YOU are ignorant of what's happened in the world in the past decade doesn't mean that any statement about what the past has done to the present is just you gainsaying for the hell of it.

    1. Re:Shouldn't you read the news first? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't you read the news first rather than spout "YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHAT'S GOING ON FIRST"?

      Of course. And fortunately for my rhetorical standing, I have read the news first. You may move on now.

  25. HTF as liquidity Fuzzing by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    BY itself HTF is instant arbitrage that if it's done right assures that the market value for everything is precisely priced in terms of risk, rewards and aggregate demand at every instant. When that's true I can confidently buy a stock knowing it's not overpriced due to some off liquidity issue. And I can sell a stock knowing it's not underpriced for lack of liquidity.

    Arbitrage is a from of knowledge equilibration.

    Or in theory that's true. But what really happens is that if you jam enough noise into the system by making the HTF trades exceed the real information content being injected from "real" trades then the only people who can see the real signals are the ones capable of subracting off the HTF trades. That is the HTF traders can mask knowledge by intentional deceit for their own benefit. It goes off the rails when they are jammming so much noise that HTFs trade against HTFs and we actually increase volatility rather than reduce it.

    So you want some HTF. But it should always be at a level just below the "real" trade volatility so that all the signals are visible and it's just arbitraging those instantly.

    Taxing is a reasonable idea to fix the tragedy of the commons.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  26. Dead is regulated. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If 100% of the human population in the USA died off and nobody lived there, the government would have the best regulated and quiet populace in the world.

    But this isn't considered a good thing.

    Just because HFTs are killing themselves doesn't mean that regulation isn't needed.

    HFTs make the market inherently unstable. Trading day stocks does too, but the faster the trading the more instability there is.

    And if HFTs are allowed, but drop out because they gain little profit? Then after a short while, there will be more profit in HFT trading, so people will move in again.

    Boom and bust ring a bell?

  27. Insiders vs everyone else by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

    The problem with the stock markets as they exist today is that there are two groups, those who have extra information (such as real time quotes) are able to better execute trades to take advantage of smaller possible profit margins but there are those who do not have access to all this information and so they can't engage in HFTs (well, profitably anyways) which skews the market.

    The first step in the right direction is not more theft, but rather to eliminate delayed stock quotes and make everything be real-time.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:Insiders vs everyone else by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      There is no access barrier to real time quotes.

      http://www.nasdaq.com/quotes/real-time.aspx

  28. Bad solution / good solution by moeinvt · · Score: 1

    "Iowa Senator Tom Harkin and Oregon Representative Peter DeFazio want a .03 percent tax on nearly every trade in nearly every market in the U.S."

    No, No, No! This is an excuse to establish a "financial transactions tax". It is not aimed at the evil Wall St. bankers, it's aimed at the little people.

    Your paycheck is direct-deposited? TAX
    You contribute to your 401K? TAX
    You make a cash withdrawal? TAX
    You write a check to pay a bill? TAX

    There are a couple of simple steps to stop the abuses of HFT. Of course, the government doesn't get a cut, which is why the tax idea will be popular in government. If we really wanted to stop the HFT abuses, it could be done with two simple steps. Maybe even one of these would suffice.

    1. A minuscule fee for orders above a certain number which are not executed. Say $.03 for every order above 100. Wouldn't hurt the small investor, but would limit the practice of submitting and canceling millions of orders.

    2. All orders must be valid for a certain human-detectable amount of time, say 5 seconds. It should not be acceptable to submit and cancel an order before a well positioned human could possibly react.

    The markets are so rife with garbage like HFT and insider trading and so distorted by the Federal Reserve's "QE" and POMO policies, that they have ceased to fulfill their original purpose as a price discovery mechanism. IMO, the small scale investor is a fool to play in this market.

  29. no one needs liquidity in milliseconds by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    HFT needs to be stopped, it adds no value

    1. Re:no one needs liquidity in milliseconds by ggraham412 · · Score: 1

      Lower bid/ask spreads: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/HFT0324.pdf

      Why is it good? Because a liquid stock price with a small bid/ask doesn't have to rise as far for me to make a profit.

    2. Re:no one needs liquidity in milliseconds by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Noone needs 100Mbps Internet links, it adds no value. And it makes it hard to find crooks who download child pornography. Let's limit all Internet speeds in the nation to 5 Mbps download (enough for watching a movie) and 100kbps upload (enough for your vacation photos).

    3. Re:no one needs liquidity in milliseconds by Dan667 · · Score: 1

      any you are not adding any value to the economy just leeching off of it. Your making my case for me.

    4. Re:no one needs liquidity in milliseconds by ggraham412 · · Score: 1

      Lol, what in the hell does that even mean? I provided a service to you this morning by spending time sifting through academic studies and provided you with one that informed your mistaken opinion. And I did that for free, so I'm not a leech.

      You on the other hand are a stubbornly ignorant troll.

    5. Re:no one needs liquidity in milliseconds by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I provided a service to you this morning by spending time sifting through academic studies and provided you with one that informed your mistaken opinion./quote>Is that code for "it took me hours to find anything positive about HFT, but when I do, you pay attention to the 100 I didn't cite that can't show any benefit.

  30. Re:If the policy makers actually traded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The worst thing about it is that for congress, it's not actually called insider trading, and it is perfectly legal. There are even financial firms set up in DC who specialize in helping politicians make good trades based on what they know about new laws coming up, etc.

  31. The trading is done by computer, you know. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no actual paper share being passed along.

    Every transaction is timestamped PRECISELY.

    It would be 100% possible to find out how long you had a share for.

    Yesterday you bought 10 shares.
    Today 50.
    If you sell 12 shares, you have sold 2 shares within a day.

    Does the fact that you use "math" instead of "maths" actually indicate that you can only do the one sum?

  32. HFT doesn't matter to 'small' investors. by ggraham412 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Critics of HFT say the smaller investors are out because they cannot compete against the HFT crowd even though most brokers offer their own flavors of high speed trade execution.

    That's not true, unless by smaller "Mom and Pop" investors the author really means semi-professional, day-trading arbitrageurs. I am a small time investor trying to make retirement savings grow by hunting for safe stocks with high dividend yields. What matters much, much more to me is that I can't get a decent interest rate on CDs or money market because of pro-Wall Street and pro-big bank FED policies.

    Why does HFT matter to me? It really doesn't. Sure, in theory some HFT algo is going to snap up bargains ahead of me, but they're also shorting the bogeys so I'm always going to get the fair price. Stop the FUD.

  33. Potato/also-potato-but-pronounced-differently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They mean: Tax on 1 share traded at $1,000 = $3. Tax on 1000 shares traded at $1 = $3. It is a tax on value of the trades, not number of shares traded. Hence it doesn't favour any specific type/price of share.

    You mean: Trade the above shares once, tax = $3. Trade them 100 times, tax = $300. Therefore it's a volume tax.

    You're both right, just using different terminologies.

    1. Re:Potato/also-potato-but-pronounced-differently by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Except that HFT often doesn't actually make trades. Just bids to push the market to a more optimum place for the controller of the HFT.

      I'm not sure that this will actually impact HFT much, if at all.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re: Potato/also-potato-but-pronounced-differently by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Not true HFT currently is 40-60% of the daily volume of trades

      That is correct if HFT were to not work for a day the volume of trades would drop that much. HFT while adding liquidity are giving a false sense of volume and value for each market

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    3. Re: Potato/also-potato-but-pronounced-differently by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      But they're pushing bids at 10x that rate, so that the trades actually made are profitable.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  34. Quote stuffing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the idea is to act as a brake on the practice of "quote stuffing", a form of essentially DOS attack where where HFT operators try to slow down price discovery for their competitors by entering huge volumes of trades that are immediately canceled.

    At peak trading times up to 90% of "trades" are effectively spam - transactions queued with immediate pending requests for cancellation designed to slow the system down for everyone else and give the one with the lowest latency/highest bandwidth connection an inside edge on the market.

    This is considered, rightly IMO, a form of front-running and is more or less fraud, not legitimate market activity and a majority of HFT firms disparage the practice, even though they feel obliged to participate in it just to keep up with their competitors.

    Nothing wrong in principle with saying "I don't like how he makes money, so let's punish him", that's what society does for all sorts of potentially profitable socially damaging/unethical activities like theft, human traffiking etc. OK that's a somewhat trite argument I agree, but I think HFT volume DOS counts as one of those valid cases!

  35. Government strikes again by operagost · · Score: 1

    The number of shares traded via high-frequency trading are down

    So the market is correcting itself, right? Common sense is slowly winning out.

    and politicians want to roll out a tax to serve as a speed bump.

    Never fear, government is here to make things worse. Always a day late and $10 billion wasted.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  36. Err.. why 0.03%? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't the best way to defeat the profitability of "high frequency trading" be to have a very small CONSTANT? A percentage is just the government skimming off the top.

    Now keep in mind- I'm not an expert. If HFT normally operates within margins of 0.01% to 0.05% profitability, then this tax will work.

  37. Just reading this today... by Big+Nemo+'60 · · Score: 2

    High-frequency trading is bad for normal investors, researchers say - Quartz

    Also includes some details on how high-volume arbitrage (the actual issue at stake) works.

    My quotes:

    "Although the term “high-frequency trading” (HFT) is often used loosely to describe trading at high speeds by computers, in this case we mean something specific: high-volume arbitrage activity, which plays on small, temporary differences in price between, say, a security trading both on the New York Stock Exchange and DirectEdge.

    [...] By anticipating future NBBO [National Best Bid and Offer price], an HFT algorithm can capitalize on cross-market disparities before they are reflected in the public price quote, in effect jumping ahead of incoming orders to pocket a small but sure prot. Naturally this precipitates an arms race [...]

    [...] HFT doesn’t actually make markets more efficient. It’s great for those who practise HFT, but it reduces profits to everyone else, because in those few milliseconds before the NBBO is calculated and disseminated, the high-frequency traders carry out deals at a price that favors them.

    In fact, [...] the difference between investor bids (offers to buy) and asks (offers to sell) is wider when arbitrageurs get into the mix, meaning neither sellers nor buyers in the non-HFT world are getting the best price they could."

    --
    In the long run we are all dead. - John Maynard Keynes (1883 - 1946)
    1. Re:Just reading this today... by stenvar · · Score: 1

      That doesn't seem to be a problem with HFT, it seems to be a problem with how the NBBO and cross-exchange orders are handled. The HFT traders are doing a better and faster job than the NBBO system.

  38. Two tier market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "There is a single fee for real time market data and everyone can buy such a feed."

    That's still two tier, the 'free' quote and the paid for quote. I put 'free' in quotes because the stock market gets the trading fee. They are after-all, a market and quoting a price is what markets do, offer something at a price and accept the bid on it. Both option are *paid* for options. Only one of them has the market offering a fake price it doesn't intend to honor.

    The regulators should step in and require the markets to remove the price deception.

  39. Research on HFT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a research paper on the topic on the theoretical effects of HFTs. The authors recommend switching to a call market instead of a tax. Taxes necessarily reduce efficiency, a call market seems to have benefits beyond eliminating inefficiency caused by HFT.

  40. The Efficient Market Hypothesis by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Basically this holds that a large public market is information-efficient. That is the current market prices reflect all publicly available information.

    There are a variety of variations on this theme which mostly reflect the strength of the adherence to the hypothesis.

    My particular belief is that the semi-strong form of the hypothesis is probably the correct one. You may have temporary bubbles, and markets that have poor disclosure requirements can be inefficient; these disallow the strong form of the hypothesis.

    The main reason for the semi-strong being correct is that even market insiders with the best analytical tools are unable to consistently outperform the market averages. Most mutual funds, hedge funds, pensions and endowments actually underperform the market when trading costs are compensated for. Those that do outperform cannot do it on a consistent basis. There is no correlation between good performance one year and the next.

    The idea that the game is rigged and only insiders have a chance is provably wrong. An individual investor using minimum cost passive investing strategies and good diversification will consistently outperform professionally managed portfolios just because of the lower costs. Any advantages that deviations from EMH are too small to overcome the trading costs needed to take advantage of the inefficiency.

    Now that HFC trading is mature, it is showing the same efficient market behavior. It just isn't worth the costs because the market has wrung out any advantages of this mode of trading.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

    1. Re:The Efficient Market Hypothesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bubbles show up _on all timeframes_.
      Bubbles are inefficiencies.
      Therefore, markets are all inefficient _on all timeframes_.

      Just from 5 years trading experience. If markets were really efficient, it would be too obvious what to trade and what not to trade. When things are too obvious, people jump on or off the bandwagon. This accellerates into a temporary bubble, which, when it pops, _is still within another bubble_ (all timeframes, remember?).

      Don't get fooled by "market efficiency" and other false security blanket statements that simply are not true. The banks are, well, not going anywhere, and laughing on your expense.

    2. Re:The Efficient Market Hypothesis by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      > Therefore, markets are all inefficient _on all timeframes_.

      You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

      The efficient market hypothesis is perhaps the most studied financial analysis of equity markets ever done.

      A LOT of important work, like Black-Scholes is based on it.

      The fact that markets are efficient cause exactly the opposite of what you claim. Since all public information is already accounted in the price, successful trading becomes very difficult, and success relies either on use of non-public information or random chance.

      The prime originator of it is University of Chicago Professor Fama who was the first recipient of three major prizes for research in Finance; the 2005 Deutsche Bank Prize in Financial Economics, the 2007 Morgan Stanley American Finance Association Award for Excellence in Finance, and the 2009 Onassis Prize in Finance. His other awards include the 1982 Belgian National Science Prize (Chaire Francqui), and the 2006 Nicholas Molodovsky Award from the CFA Institute for his work in portfolio theory and asset pricing.

      He's been nominated for the Nobel Memorial in economics several times. There is little doubt he will eventually win it.

    3. Re:The Efficient Market Hypothesis by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      You are conflating investment and trading. HFTs are, and are competing with - traders. Traders don't benchmark themselves against indices.

      In fact large traders (and HFTs) are special kind of traders who don't even need money to trade. They borrow on the fly and trade with it. So they make money on zero capital, in the market at least. Their business capital is in nanosecond data centres etc. which I am not claiming is zero.

      So comparing their return-on-capital with those of mutual funds / indices is like comparing apples with quantum physics.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  41. define a "trade" for tax purposes by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Something like 97% of the finnacial traffic are buy/sell bids that are never consumated. They are a part of the these HFT algorithms to explore prices. If tax bids too, even at a much lower rate than proposed, you put the brakes on much HFT traffic.

  42. HTF Other side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are given opportinutiy to make money using HFT would yo not make money? Is it the case of bad apple? HFT has brought a lot of innvovation at various firm, hardware and Exchange. Exchanges have become more robust and responsible.

    Something can always be bad and good - does HFT bring benefit to masses? May not be directly but when HFT firm changes hardware every 3 months old goes back to market at cheaper rate. When HFT demands and pays for faster lines, service provider improves their capacity and that benefits all.

  43. Vonnegut would be amused by thered2001 · · Score: 1

    Hocus Pocus "Microsecond Arbitrage" - traders must not read good fiction.

    --

    If your only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.

  44. Lets get real by bl968 · · Score: 0

    Look if I buy something I have to pay 9.5% tax, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. these fraction of a percent taxes for stock transactions are total bullshit!

    --
    "GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
  45. Calculation? by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

    It *is* taxed per volume. 0.03%, which it nothing for a normal transaction. But for someone who buys and sells the same stock a hundred times per day, just to profit from tiny fluctuations in the stock value, it's 3%

    Assume a stock costs 1$ & a regular joe buys 100 units - then he is taxed .03% of 100$ - i.e. .03$ or 3 cents.

    If he buys and sells it a 100 times, then the total transaction worth is 100 * 200 = 20000$. Per transaction he will pay 3 cents. So totally 200 * 3 cents = 6$. i.e. .03% of 20000$ - So how do you get the 3%?

  46. Good since a lot of HFT is illegal front running. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Seeing someone's trade, buying the stock and selling it to them at a markup, has been illegal for decades as front running.

    I favor the tiny tax on trades however- lots of trades are no longer done on the market floors (billions of dollars worth of billions of shares).

    Not sure if the taxes will hit those markets.

    A tiny tax would cut down on the false trades.

    I think if you offer a trade, there should be a cancellation fee (instead of this tax).
    That would kill 99% of the price manipulating uses of posting and immediately cancelling millions of trades.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  47. Another market view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Larry, Curly and Moe are selling apples at separate places in town. Larry is selling apples for 52 cents, Curly for 50 cents and Moe for 51 cents.

    Jim goes to Larry's store and is about to pay 52 cents for an apple when Flash appears and says he will sell Jim the apple for 51 cents. Flash buys the apple from Curly, sells it to Jim, and pockets a penny. Larry, with his overprice apple, isn't happy, but everyone else is.

    More realistic: there's not just one Flash, but many. When Jim goes to by the apple, all the Flashes crowd around competing to sell the apple. "I'll sell it for 51 cents!" "I'll sell it for 50.9" "You can get it for 50.8 from me". In the end, Jim buys his apple for 50.1 cents, and all the Flashes except one walk away empty-handed, having expended effort (it takes a lot of calories to run at light speed) and gotten nothing.

  48. and you complain about NSA spying? by stenvar · · Score: 2

    HFT may sometimes increase volatility and sometimes decrease it. Overall, there is little evidence that there's a need to act.

    But a transaction tax means massive new reporting and data collection on every financial transaction. It probably would require data exchange between all major tax authorities, and the imposition of US rules on foreign financial markets. It also means that any transaction or contract will now have to come under suspicion of being a proxy for a financial transaction that might otherwise be a taxable trade.

    I can't figure out how anybody can at the same time get upset about NSA spying and then support such legislation. It looks like people won't rest until every paperclip purchase, every phone call, every trip, every e-book page read, and every bit of our medical information has been reported to the government and exchanged with governments around the world. Of course, each of these regulations has a separate group of people making excuses for them: "for the children", "for financial stability and fairness", "for anti-terrorism efforts", "for your own good", or whatever else excuse-du-jour people come up with.

    1. Re:and you complain about NSA spying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so glad you've for it all figured out.

      What we really should be happy about though is all the new circuit breakers they've installed on more and more timeframes in more and more markets because of increased volatility and feedback loops from HFTs.

  49. Take the Red Pill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The stock market is a type of a ponzi scheme. It's also worse, it fluctuates on a whim.

    More people toss more money, stocks go up. More People take out more money, stocks go down. After an IPO, the funding a company gets from issuing and buying back it's own stocks is but a fart on the wind of the scheme. So little of what happens is about allocating resources to further a public company on the stock market.

    No money, no real wealth, is created in the stock market; only transferred from new "investor" to older "investor..

  50. but why should that apply anymore? by Chirs · · Score: 1

    In these days of connected everything, why should they need to go through someone with a seat on the exchange? Why can't the seller post their bid, and the buyer accept it, with no middlemen other than the exchange itself?

    1. Re:but why should that apply anymore? by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      They can.
      Block trades occur all the time.

      Go for it - and good luck. You'll find it's cheaper going to your broker, who charges more (and in addition to) than the $0.01 spread (which is the best spread you can get, btw).

  51. That's not what taxes are for... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

    Iowa Senator Tom Harkin and Oregon Representative Peter DeFazio want a .03 percent tax on nearly every trade in nearly every market in the U.S.

    Someone really needs to remind our government that the purpose of taxes are to fund government operations, not to attack perfectly legal behavior that you happen to not like.

  52. Dumbest Idea I've Heard in Months. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    A tax on trades in a US market will have *0* effect on HFT. All it will do is cause the trading to move to a different country that doesn't tax these trades.

    It is a completely 100% moronic idea.

  53. Better solution by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    It's not only that stock exchanges have become gambling halls. It's worse: the HFT traders are the card sharks that any self-respecting casino bans from their premises.

    If the markets themselves want to act like respectable gambling institutions, they need put a brake on this. The simplest means would be to charge big fees for cancellations. If Flash asks "would you like to buy an apple for 51c", and the answer is yes, then he had better buy the damn apple.

    The liquidity argument is specious; there really is no benefit to liquidity below a certain threshold. Fees should also go up astronomically for very short-term trades.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Better solution by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The simplest means would be to charge big fees for cancellations.

      Or, better yet, don't allow cancellations. Instead, put expiration times to buy and sell orders with a minimum of, say, 1 day. Or perhaps simply delay all orders for a week or so before attempting to execute them, during which they are completely unprocessed but may be canceled, therefore simultaneously removing HFT and giving people doing stupid things in panic or mania time to calm down.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  54. Investing is gambling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's all gambling. Insurance is even gambling. That's because it's all about risk taking.

    Not that I'm for HFT (I'm all for a Tobin tax), but saying that it's gambling doesn't really make much of an argument. The problem with HFT is simply the volatility and flash crashes. No one should have to worry that their investment in a large cap company could lose 99% of its value in seconds, especially without any information indicating that said company should be worthless.

    The reason the stock market has gone up so much, as you suggested, is that earnings have gone up quite a bit from the bottom. The S&P 500 is trading right around a 15 price to earnings ratio (approximately $110 earnings per share from a low of around $58 in mid-2009), which isn't all that crazy. The P/E was about 15 even when those earnings had bottomed out.

    So, I don't see much of a disconnect. It's just that our economy was *that* bad, and now stocks have rebounded, staying reasonably valued throughout.

  55. HFT: 0.5.Second Sample by Barkmullz · · Score: 1

    Nanex presented a video that shows 0.5 seconds worth of High Frequency Trading for the stock Johnson and Johnson. Pretty revealing.

    --
    Ronald said nothing. He flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse, and rode madly off in all directions.
  56. Free markets have *immense* social value by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

    Wall Street has some social value, but it also has considerable social expense... Stock/commodity/bond markets are not capitalism.

    Our markets aren't perfect, but if you started from scratch to devise a way for people to buy and sell fractional ownership of the enterprises that humans naturally create in order to efficiently meet consumer demands, you'd end up with something pretty similar to what we have now.

    And free markets have immense social value. They have lifted far more people out of poverty than any wealth-redistribution effort ever has. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if all wealth-redistribution efforts have been counterproductive in the long run. (E.g., if the poor of country X end up having 5% of a $1 trillion GDP coercively redistributed to them, they are much worse off than if they receive 1% of a $10 trillion GDP via voluntary acts of charity. Yes, less economic coercion causes a boost in the rate of economic growth which, if compounded over a few decades, easily means the difference between whether country X has a $1 trillion GDP or a $10 trillion GDP.)

    --
    That that is is that that that that is not is not.
    1. Re:Free markets have *immense* social value by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Our markets aren't perfect, but if you started from scratch to devise a way for people to buy and sell fractional ownership of the enterprises that humans naturally create in order to efficiently meet consumer demands, you'd end up with something pretty similar to what we have now.

      Ah, no. If most people were to start from scratch, it would eventually look much like what we've got now. I challenge the very notion of otherwise-uninvolved third parties owning stock in joint ventures under most conditions. Workers have no ownership of their work, and "owners" (stock holders) have no feel for their company, being wholly separated from the creation of their products and services. This doesn't lead to a better economy.

      I'm still undecided about the bond market, but that's easier to defend than the stock market, I think.

      And free markets have immense social value.

      That's a particular brand of laced cool-aid that I won't partake of. It's optimized for the particular variation of capitalism that we've become fixated upon. We're so stuck on what is, that we will not try anything else, and cannot find anything better. Yes, it seems better than anything that's been tried, but we really haven't tried all that many types of capitalism.

      Can you at least admit that the "financial sector" shouldn't be included in GDP? It is money that is sucked out of the economy... arguably (debatably) while "helping" other sectors maximize their efficiency.

      They have lifted far more people out of poverty than any wealth-redistribution effort ever has.

      As you go on to imply... that's not saying much.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    2. Re:Free markets have *immense* social value by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

      Workers have no ownership of their work

      There are plenty of ways to incentivize workers to perform quality work. Some companies do give shares to workers through an Employee Stock Ownership Plan, but that's probably not even the most effective way. (Joe knows that if he slacks off, it could hurt the company's reputation, but the impact to Joe is highly diluted because he only owns 0.00003% of the company.)

      "owners" (stock holders) have no feel for their company, being wholly separated from the creation of their products and services. This doesn't lead to a better economy.

      Actually, it does. If there's a sudden spike in demand for entwidgets, Entwidgets Inc. has an immediate need to raise capital for expansion. Investors notice this. Their collective insight tends to shift capital to precisely where it's needed most. It doesn't matter if they live 3000 miles away and have never laid eyes on an entwidget factory. It's rather wonderful that a retired bus driver in Vermont can contribute an extra $800 toward his granddaughter's college tuition, because a sharp pension fund manager working on his behalf studied the LED light bulb industry and got a good feel for which players were going to need more capital.

      Can you at least admit that the "financial sector" shouldn't be included in GDP?

      No, I can't. GDP must measure services as well as goods, and the financial sector's services are invaluable -- much more so than, say, the barbering industry. I can cut my own hair if need be. But imagine that a guy like Edison comes along, and there is no financial sector to get behind him and the rapid application of his inventions. 100 years later, there would still be towns that hadn't been electrified. (And there wouldn't even be as many towns, because the financial sector made possible the construction of the railroads that took settlers en mass into the frontier.)

      --
      That that is is that that that that is not is not.
    3. Re:Free markets have *immense* social value by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of ways to incentivize workers to perform quality work.

      Yes, there are... but that's not the point. For thousands of years whips were used to incentive workers. Most of our workforce spends 30 to 70 hours a week working for someone else who must then find ways to incentive his serfs... I mean employees. Efficiency isn't everything. This is also a quality of life issue. Besides, it is well known that people will work harder and be happier if they believe they have some type of ownership (even if it isn't corporate ownership).

      Some companies do give shares to workers through an Employee Stock Ownership Plan, but that's probably not even the most effective way. (Joe knows that if he slacks off, it could hurt the company's reputation, but the impact to Joe is highly diluted because he only owns 0.00003% of the company.)

      Primarily because he knows a vast majority of the shares are owned by outside entities, and he doesn't have anywhere near enough to have voting rights. Nor does any other employee, and they all know it. It is practically a useless token, and nobody is fooled. Oh, so they get a small bonus that fluctuates, mostly along with the entire market. Why should they care? They won't be with the company 10 or 20 years from now. Why take the risk that the disconnected C level officers aren't going to tank the company (intentionally or otherwise).

      Worse, employees are rarely given stock. They're given "options" to buy stock. Most employees never exercise those options (which is rather intentional).

      "owners" (stock holders) have no feel for their company, being wholly separated from the creation of their products and services. This doesn't lead to a better economy.

      Actually, it does. If there's a sudden spike in demand for entwidgets, Entwidgets Inc. has an immediate need to raise capital for expansion. Investors notice this. Their collective insight tends to shift capital to precisely where it's needed most.

      This only helps if a company jumps through regulatory hurdles and sells new stock. Sales of pre-existing stock may rise dramatically, but don't help the company one whit.

      Besides, the bond market is perfectly capable of dealing with this. It might even be better at dealing with this than the stock market. It's one of the reasons why I haven't (yet) taken a dislike to corporate bonds. (Public bonds have become a joke due to terrible policy, but that's an entirely different matter.)

      But outside investors will almost never give good advice for improving a company's internals. They won't give educated suggestions about what might be researched, They won't know how employees are abusing supplies, wasting thousands of man-hours twiddling their thumbs, or spying on customers. Most employees don't care because it's someone else's problem.

      It doesn't matter if they live 3000 miles away and have never laid eyes on an entwidget factory.

      It does matter, actually. Corporations, and their officers, have legal obligations to their shareholders to turn a profit. Since most shareholders are nowhere, nohow involved in the company itself, this has devolved into an ever growing pursuit of cutting costs at the expense of quality, employee pay, and work environment. Now Now Now. This quarter This quarter This quarter... Officers of big corps who try to play 10 years ahead (let alone 20 or 30) get removed by big investment firms who don't intend to invest more than a few months, and could care less about the long term viability of the company.

      This is highly detrimental to the economy, and needs to be addressed somehow.

      It's rather wonderful that a retired bus driver in Vermont can contribute an extra $800 toward his granddaughter's college tuition, because a sharp pension fund manager working on his behalf studied the LED light bulb industry and got a good feel fo

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    4. Re:Free markets have *immense* social value by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

      For thousands of years whips were used to incentive workers.

      To the extent you're implying that I had whipping in mind as a legitimate way to incentivize workers, you are just wrecking your own credibility.

      It is practically a useless token, and nobody is fooled

      Employee Stock Ownership Plans are indeed practically useless when it comes to those who aren't fooled. But you know there are a few goody-two-shoes employees who are fooled; who reckon "I must do good work because I'm an owner of the company!" and never make the cognitive leap to realizing that the benefit of their hard work is mostly enjoyed by other owners.

      This only helps if a company jumps through regulatory hurdles and sells new stock.

      Wrong -- to the extent that a company owns shares of its own stock (many companies do, and share buyback programs are common), rising share prices give the company more capital to work with.

      But outside investors will almost never give good advice for improving a company's internals. They won't give educated suggestions about what might be researched, They won't know how employees are abusing supplies, wasting thousands of man-hours twiddling their thumbs, or spying on customers.

      Every company has a paid management staff, responsible for dealing with those problems. It would be a bad idea to create barriers to ownership by pushing those problems off onto the company's owners (who, in most cases, don't even have any aptitude for management). It's entirely possible to be both an owner and a manager, but this should not be required of anyone.

      Since most shareholders are nowhere, nohow involved in the company itself, this has devolved into an ever growing pursuit of cutting costs at the expense of quality, employee pay, and work environment. Now Now Now. This quarter This quarter This quarter... Officers of big corps who try to play 10 years ahead (let alone 20 or 30) get removed by big investment firms who don't intend to invest more than a few months, and could care less about the long term viability of the company.

      There's absolutely no correlation between having a narrow short-term outlook and being a publicly-traded company (or between being a producer of shoddy products and being a publicly-traded company). In the auto industry alone, there are examples of publicly-traded companies that have a healthy long-term outlook and produce high-quality products (Toyota, Tesla Motors) and examples of publicly-traded companies that don't (GM, Chrysler).

      I think you're totally off the rails here. Rich guys invested in him

      Let's try again. Because Nikola Tesla had the backing of George Westinghouse, the technology of alternating current spread rapidly around the world. Now, you can call Westinghouse a "rich guy" -- and it's obvious that you do so pejoratively -- or you can more objectively call him an agent of the financial sector.

      I aspire to become a "rich guy" myself -- not because I'm particularly fond of luxury goods, but because I would like to drastically expand the scope of the philanthropy work that I do. The more rich guys there are, the fewer poor guys there are. Poor guys will either directly transition to becoming rich or middle-class guys, or they will benefit indirectly from the activities of the rich guys. A rising tide lifts all boats: it's a cliche, but true.

      --
      That that is is that that that that is not is not.
    5. Re:Free markets have *immense* social value by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      You deserve a longer reply, but I don't have time for one. In brief:

      Argumentum ad absurdum

      When a company owns it's own stock, who really owns the stock? Think mathematically.

      It's not about what the owners should be responsible for, but who the owners should be.

      There absolutely is a correlation between being publicly traded and over focusing quarterly returns. It is only a tendency, but it is sufficient to destroy many great companies and hinder our economy as a whole. See "exception that proves the rule".

      I don't see "rich guy" as pejorative. I see it as way over-simplified, which was the target I was shooting for. Sorry for the confusion. "Agent of the financial sector", on the other hand, is a highly loaded and biased phrase.

      I aspire to become a "rich guy" myself -- not because I'm particularly fond of luxury goods, but because I would like to drastically expand the scope of the philanthropy work that I do.

      A good ideal. I don't fault you here, presuming honesty.

      The more rich guys there are, the fewer poor guys there are... A rising tide lifts all boats: it's a cliche, but true.

      Absolutely false. It's a common excuse, though. Increases in technology, manufacturing efficiency, employment efficiency, and the like do help everyone. Random spending by the wealthy is just as worthless as the pseudo-Keynesian random spending by the government.

      Wealth ownership is as a percentage of a whole. Being wealthy is a measure as a percentage. It is a comparison against others. When someone becomes wealthy, they are only rarely increase the size of the pie. Instead, they are re-allotting the financial resources of those who can't manage their resources well, and putting them to more efficient use. Not inherently bad, but we've permitted it to run amok. I don't personally require equality share of wealth (communism, which is inherently unfair and untenable), but it would be nice to see fairness of wealth.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  57. What a terrible financial model by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    So, instead of making money off of researching the viability of stocks, let's prop up the market on millisecond trades based on the trend some statistician found where brick and mortar prices dip for 5 minutes when everyone is taking a post-lunch shit. Nothing to be worried about here...

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  58. HFT paroxysm-belly explyned by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

    High Frequency Trades are abiotically generated by artificial node-gysms that infest the innermost belly-mantle. They execute on a timescale that is so distantly small from our own thought process they manage to knit cause directly to effect.

    We operate within a lovely gylophagous gygantsm of our own devising. But there has always been human delay between cause and effect. Any system that has managed to knit cause and effect together and has evolved beyond thought-time becomes a paroxysmal gygantsm.

    Gygantsae are set in motion as a single primordial gysm effects itself, or triggers causes in other gysms as they are introduced. As the expanding wave of possibility and permutation becomes practically unbounded a rolling glysm forms. It is convenient to think of glysms as expanding spheres whose behavior along the surface may be theoretically predictable, but its interior is comprised of behavior that may be possible to define but is always impossible to divine.

    If a glysm coalesces from others and still others find stable orbits of context within them --- they form 'bellies'. Because Buddha has a big one and he is smiling. These are the belly-mantles, nested like so many Russian Dolls. It is convenient to think of bellies as constructs of geography-time within which transactional behavior occurs.

    In the macro-belly-mantle we have index trends over time, predictable lifetime notions of people and corporations behaving in ways one would expect. This outermost foundation-belly is the one demonstrated and taught. These things are taught as if there is a rational basis to every decision. In the slowly rolling glysm of the macro-belly both history and textbook are written as the great-circle paths along its surface.

    At this level economists work and play. They attempt to geographically map and narrate the macro-belly with glimpses below the surface to the glysms beneath; at this scale subterranean features are visible The do-belly is the most prominent structure effecting the macro-belly and its protrusions effect the surface, much as plate tectonics effects a planet.

    Then we come to the do-belly-mantle which is layer of discrete events caused and effected by people, politics and careers. It is a do-belly because if you've ever done something or had something done to you by someone and it cost someone something, it happened in the do-belly.

    It is the do-belly which economists feel comfortable modelling as a simple series of 'zero-sum games', mainly because they are too sociopathic to realize that when bad things happen to individual people, those people effect those around them, polarizing a range of empathy (opposition to indifference to altruism) which spawns a thick chaos of cause. If something happens to you and you understand why, your chain of reasoning is a great-circle path along the do-belly but no zero-sum model could predict what happens next unless you are completely alone. Fables and parables serve as culture's medieval maps to the great do-belly.

    That 'liberty and the pursuit of happiness', that is a do-belly thing.

    From the renaissance into modern time the poker-belly-mantle has evolved. It has become a seething glsym of mostly-beneficial wonder and miasma. This belly lives within the do-belly and its horizon is defined not as a scale of time or even behavior but perception. It is the multitude of decisions that are caused by or intended to effect the disembodied "market" itself. The best way to describe it is by example.

    If you buy stock in a company to hold as an investment you are a do-belly even if your primary motive is to make money --- because your decision has thought-symbols for you and the company. If your purpose is to ride financials or short techs it's poker. But it crosses the boundary.

    Warren Buffet lives in the do-belly. He has mystified folks all his life by doing this. He operates exclusively from a state of conscious transactional awareness. Win or

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
  59. The Stock Exchange is Broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    first, any industry that allows people who don't work to profit from that of others is inherently corrupt.

    To use our presidents works "traders" have "no skin in the game".

    If you want to trade in say "oil" for example, you should be forced to take physical delivery of the commodity. Same as pork bellies, corn, sugar, etc. If limits were placed on the "paper" a trader can ride on without taking physical delivery (and the associated cost) this would reduce some degree of volatility in the market. Frankly I don't think farm commodities should ever have been put on the exchange as they are used as a macro influence to buffer fluctuations in daily trades and stabilize the market.

    As far as this "micro trading" it is yet another example of "sharpies" on wallstreet bilking the public. (sort of like the way the Federal Reserve loans out all of the money in the USA from Thursday until monday morning at high interest rates over seas. When does the person whos account has been (stolen from) borrowed get their interest from this predatory lending by the FED??? Answer, they don't. I say ban wall street and go back to self funded companies.