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House Democrats Propose National Park On the Moon
MarkWhittington writes "Two House Democrats, Reps. Donna Edwards (D-Md.) and Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-Texas), have proposed a bill called Apollo Lunar Landing Legacy Act, H.R. 2617 (PDF), that would establish the Apollo Lunar Landing Sites National Historical Park at all the Apollo lunar landing sites, according to a story in The Hill. 'The park would be comprised of all artifacts left on the surface of the moon from the Apollo 11 through 17 missions. The bill says these sites need to be protected because of the anticipated increase in commercial moon landings in the future.'"
This idea is absolutely nuts. But if they're hiring park rangers I'll be in line!
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
One of these days, AC. Bam! Pow! Straight to the moon.
We don't own it so they don't have the jurisdiction to pass laws on the moon. How about a zoo for these moon bats?
they go fuck themselves since the moon isn't America's
From TFA:
“The government would also have to submit the Apollo 11 lunar landing site to the United Nations for designation as a World Heritage site.”
I'd think they've got a legitimate case for that being accepted. Terminology gets a little interesting though, with "World" referring to the moon as well.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
Will there be funding to "recreate" all the artifacts that were supposedly left behind, but stolen by the aliens?
(I need to believe that the government didn't have the ability to lie to us about that (at least not that long ago)).
Suborbital [spaceflight] is the special olympics of spaceflight. - Rei
Maybe the folks proposing this didn't think too hard about how the word 'national' will be read outside the US.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Of all the stupid, hare-brained ideas we've seen, this one has to be the stupidest so far.
We're close to exponential runaway on government spending (borrowing more, and more often). The economy is barely moving despite drenching it in money, jobs are part-time with no benefits, we jail more people than China, the government plainly tramples over all our civil rights, oil is running out, tax law is a joke, IP law is a joke, immigration law is a joke, H1B visas are a joke...
I'm half inclined to start a new political movement: the "Boot" party.
Let's give these people "the boot" - vote the incumbents out! Keep turnover high until we get good people who can accomplish something worthwhile.
The Bill passes and...the park is immediately closed due to budget cuts.
Tell you what though; I will be first in line to apply for the position of park ranger for this one.
None? Nothing to see here. More idiot legislators trying to get attention.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Actually, the Russians got there first.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
That they come up with an original name...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
No that they have taken care of the celestial matters, perhaps they will find some time for actually running the country. Banal earthly matters such as the farm bill apparently requires some attention.
they go fuck themselves since the moon isn't America's
Oh but it is! Here, this terrifying truth was uncovered right here on slashdot, but since the Democrats have been trying to cover it up, many haven't heard. The current generation needs to read this, so I'll repost it now.
The Moon - A Ridiculous Liberal Myth
It amazes me that so many allegedly "educated" people have fallen so quickly and so hard for a fraudulent fabrication of such laughable proportions. The very idea that a gigantic ball of rock happens to orbit our planet, showing itself in neat, four-week cycles -- with the same side facing us all the time -- is ludicrous. Furthermore, it is an insult to common sense and a damnable affront to intellectual honesty and integrity. That people actually believe it is evidence that the liberals have wrested the last vestiges of control of our public school system from decent, God-fearing Americans (as if any further evidence was needed! Daddy's Roommate? God Almighty!)
Documentaries such as Enemy of the State have accurately portrayed the elaborate, byzantine network of surveillance satellites that the liberals have sent into space to spy on law-abiding Americans. Equipped with technology developed by Handgun Control, Inc., these satellites have the ability to detect firearms from hundreds of kilometers up. That's right, neighbors .. the next time you're out in the backyard exercising your Second Amendment rights, the liberals will see it! These satellites are sensitive enough to tell the difference between a Colt .45 and a .38 Special! And when they detect you with a firearm, their computers cross-reference the address to figure out your name, and then an enormous database housed at Berkeley is updated with information about you.
Of course, this all works fine during the day, but what about at night? Even the liberals can't control the rotation of the Earth to prevent nightfall from setting in (only Joshua was able to ask for that particular favor!) That's where the "moon" comes in. Powered by nuclear reactors, the "moon" is nothing more than an enormous balloon, emitting trillions of candlepower of gun-revealing light. Piloted by key members of the liberal community, the "moon" is strategically moved across the country, pointing out those who dare to make use of their God-given rights at night!
Yes, I know this probably sounds paranoid and preposterous, but consider this. Despite what the revisionist historians tell you, there is no mention of the "moon" anywhere in literature or historical documents -- anywhere -- before 1950. That is when it was initially launched. When President Josef Kennedy, at the State of the Union address, proclaimed "We choose to go to the moon", he may as well have said "We choose to go to the weather balloon." The subsequent faking of a "moon" landing on national TV was the first step in a long history of the erosion of our constitutional rights by leftists in this country. No longer can we hide from our government when the sun goes down.
But how is anything the UN says gonna affect private enterprise? And do all countries obey UN mandates? I have a feeling the value of those relics to private collectors means the UN can say WTF they want, sooner or later SOMEBODY is gonna grab 'em.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Actually the US has some rather "straightforward" laws about National Parks - which are also places like the Lincoln Memorial (I think they file those under National Heritage) and places that are important to the military.
And while I totally agree that they can't really enforce it outside the US, it does actually go a long way to defining what can and can't be done there by US companies. So, actually, I think that this is a great idea. It probably takes next to no time to propose in parliament, will likely get a pass and stops US based companies using the original landing sites as a mine.
If space travel were to get super cheap tomorrow, I would dearly love and enjoy taking a tour of the original landing sites and not look at billboards, advertising or simply find out that they got ran over by a mining rig...
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
But how is anything the UN says gonna affect private enterprise?
Countries are subject to national laws. Countries are all part of the UN, and even the ones that aren't can be more or less forced to go along with it by the ones that are.
do all countries obey UN mandates
Insofar as anyone obeys the laws they themselves have agreed to follow (which, I take your point, is not as often as one might hope).
sooner or later SOMEBODY is gonna grab 'em.
So... making an effort towards later rather than sooner is probably worthwhile.
Certainly the UN is only as capable as its member states, who are only so capable, and eventually I'm sure law and order will break down enough for whatever reason that anyone who feels like it can go pillage historical artefacts from everyone else. But for the moment we try and avoid that.
There isn't an infinite time horizon solution. We could simply say 'free for all, first come first serve' and let the artefacts get sold, but eventually notions of private property will break down long enough for someone to steal them from their owner of the day and if they have bigger weapons than the other guy, I guess that makes it legal. But for as long as there is lawful authority (insofar as such a thing exists at all) we can make laws to try and do the best possible for now, and when we're dead the next group of people can deal with whatever their problem of the day is. Lets face it, if they find the 25th century equivalent of oil under the apollo landing sights, they're getting moved to museums, and I wouldn't begrudge my greatx20 grand children whatever choice they think is best. For the moment 'don't touch' seems like the best bet.
It only counts when somebody licks the surface with their bare tongue.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Well, the moon landings WERE faked, but they were filmed on the moon.
We've had a base up there since 1958. It's just on the far side so you can't see it from Earth.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
You are right, UN mandates are only as strong as the guns that support them. And, since most of the world believes as you do that private ownership supersedes public, you can rest assured that those "grab them" claims to ownership will be defended. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along?
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
If the US has it as a national park, the others will likely be polite enough to avoid trashing it. That's the point.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
The park would be comprised of all artifacts left on the surface of the moon from the Apollo 11 through 17 missions.
Including bags of astronaut shit? Yeah, it just wouldn't be the same if someone cleaned those up...
We got there first. We claimed it. What more do you want?
Speaking of which, the Nacotchtank want to know when they can move back into the whitehouse.
Travel geeks would kill for that NPS passport book stamp!
If a private space entrepreneur does the job of flying to the moon, collecting the artifacts, and returning them before the US government gets its act together, perhaps ending up in his private collection is a fitting outcome.
I'd rather they were left in place. They're effectively a time capsule, and context is very important for future study.
always insisting the US must do things to make everybody like us no matter whether the actions will have long term negative effects
The opposite of that is what spawns the terrorist boogeyman. You're deluding yourself if you think anything is done, that does not directly or indirectly put money in the pockets of those in power. Whatever people feel about the Americans as a nation, it is completely of your own doing, and invoking long term negative consequences as a boogeyman works both ways. The only significant difference in either school of thought is when the negative consequences manifest themselves, stop doing shit for profit all the time and you might actually see an improvement. That being said, this proposal is beyond stupid, in that we can agree.
... whatever
We Europeans did that all the time during the great exploring days. No matter if there were other people living there, if we found it it was usually ours.
-- Cheers!
they go fuck themselves since the moon isn't America's
From TFA:
“The government would also have to submit the Apollo 11 lunar landing site to the United Nations for designation as a World Heritage site.”
I'd think they've got a legitimate case for that being accepted. Terminology gets a little interesting though, with "World" referring to the moon as well.
I'm not sure the attempt to be designated as a World Heritage site is an acknowledgement of the fact that the Moon isn't American property, I'm willing to bet that most UN World Heritage sites exist in some country's territory.
I'm looking at this with a very sympathetic eye, but at best this is a naive, but good hearted attempt to establish some precedence for protecting the Apollo landing sites before a serious commercial interest gets involved, an attempt that doesn't realize you can't declare a national park outside of your territory. At worst it's a cynical PR/ego move that doesn't care if it doesn't make sense because it's not supposed to do anything. It's just supposed to get their names in the papers and/or serve as a club with which to bat opposing legislators who oppose it.
I actually wouldn't mind a bill that said nothing but 'lets submit it to the UN as a World Heritage site and come up with some plan for protecting this stuff for when commercial interests eventually find their way up there", but talking about a national park is the wrong way to do it.
I stole this Sig
Personally I'd love it if they stayed there but I'm also a realist, and 1.- those things won't last forever in the nasty conditions on the moon,solar winds and little meteors and the like will trash them, which IIRC scientists said the flags might last 300 years, and 2.- To a private collector those things will be worth a fortune and as we have seen time and time again if there is enough money on the table SOMEBODY will claim it.
But just FYI I don't think private ownership should be the end all be all, I sadly have just seen too much when it comes to my fellow man to think everybody will play nice and leave stuff alone because we ask. Hell look at how gourmets are happy to pay crazy prices for endangered fish, rather than let stock build back up I wouldn't be surprised if they would be happy to be the one that ate the last of this or that fish, just as i'm sure some private collector would pay a ton of money to have one of those flags behind glass for his friends to ooohh and aahh over even if they had to have a historic site trashed to get it..
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Yeah, that is a thing that is going to happen. Any day now.
innumerable photons from his many fires, some of which struck the moon means that Ogg got there first. Ooga booga.
The United States Department of the Interior listed a location outside the nation on the National Register of Historic Places: the oldest American embassy. The Apollo sites are certainly as worthy of preservation. They should be listed as historic landmarks.
Nope. But the Brits did. So pack your crap and move out, the redcoats wanna move in again. You can pack your third amendment too, while you're at it.
Snide comments aside, when will humanity learn that "but I was here first" means exactly jack when it comes to land claims. How far back do you want to reach to determine who owns it? Should Europe belong to Austria, for they pretty much held a sizable portion of it in the 18th century? Or maybe the Germans, after all the Holy Roman Empire, which contained pretty much all of central Europe, was ruled by German Emperors for most of its existence? Maybe the French would be more fitting, after all Emperor Charlemagne ruled nearly all of Europe in 800. Or the Mongols? I mean, considering how much of it was conquered by Attila before? Or Italy, owning it to the Roman Empire? Maybe Greece would be fitting, considering they settled almost all over those parts of Europe that border the Mediterranean Sea. Or ... who is the legal successor of the Celts again?
Forget "I was here first" as a claims to land. You might find out that someone can say that to you, too.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You say that like shooting murderers and junkies on the moon is a bad thing.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Hasselblad, who made some of NASA's photographic equipment, used to run adverts offering free cameras to anyone who was prepared to go and pick them up. These were, of course, the Hasselblads left behind by the astronauts on the lunar surface. And now this bunch of do-gooders wants to put all the Apollo artefacts off-limits! Has the camera offer been cancelled? I feel betrayed!
Remember We do these things because they are hard?
Not particularly, and that was never the case anyway. It was always a space race, an attempt to beat Cold War enemies. With that rationale gone, NASA lost much of its support.
The lesser light reference was introduced in 1953, six years after the Roswell aliens gave the Democrats time travel technology and fertilizer. All editions of the Bible were retrofitted to make this new satellite agreeable to proper God fearing Republicans.
... whatever
Snide comments aside, when will humanity learn that "but I was here first" means exactly jack when it comes to land claims.
Fun quote from The Lion in Winter:
Henry II: The Vexin's mine.
Philip II: By what authority?
Henry II: It's got my troops all over it; that makes it mine.
Nonsense. That's where the Nazis are hiding out. Didn't you see the documentary about it?
We also stuck a flag on it. So finders keepers.
The UK stuck its flag on what is now the USA, and look how that turned out.
No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
Never mind that all this was only possible in the first place thanks to public research and public implementation...
And thanks to the German V2 program that was lifted lock stock and barrel in Operation Paperclip. (or at least the parts that weren't taken by the Soviets)
Not necessarily. It could be more like the difference between negligence and willful negligence.
You are arguing that "willful negligence" is not negligence at all.
Not thinking too hard about something necessarily encompasses not caring about it enough to think about it. Which is not to say that not thinking about it equates with not caring about it. If you are going to split hairs for no good reason at least try to be correct.
You've misidentified the hairs I've split.
Let's look at it from the POV of a political candidate for office. I have two different speeches in front of me. One has broad appeal, but really won't motivate my base, and I'm fairly confident that even though I'm saying the right things I won't persuade many registered X voters to vote for me because I'm the Y party candidate.
The other speech is a little irritating to the other side, but will get my base out of their houses and into the voting booths. Ultimately I've decided I don't care what effect I have on the 'other' guys, they're not voting for me anyway. So I don't care, but I still thought about it.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
You can declare a national park any place you want. Preventing access to others is another thing.
In this case if a private company tries to steal this stuff you can either prosecute or declare the Apollo 11 Site has become the Lunar Atomic Range. I doubt anyone would risk a swift nuking to steal some artifacts.
it's not for the lunar surface but for the NASA artifacts left behind.
Remember We do these things because they are hard?
Not particularly, and that was never the case anyway. It was always a space race, an attempt to beat Cold War enemies. With that rationale gone, NASA lost much of its support.
This is an important detail that seems to be glossed over. NASA's development prior to the 80's was a way of developing technology the military needed that was too "big" to be kept classified. Big rockets were needed for big nukes. Putting spacecraft into orbit and being able to control those orbits was necessary for spy satellites. Skylab was about countering concerns of manned space spy stations from the Soviets. The moon shot was half cold-war PR and half critical military technology development.
Post-Apollo, NASA's manned program has been 100% about corporate welfare for defense contractors. The joke was always "why does the space shuttle exist? to build the space station! Why does the space station exist? To give the shuttle somewhere to go!". And it wasn't far of the truth. Continuing the Apollo-era style rockets and targeting Mars (which was the program NASA declined in favor of the Shuttle -- the intent was to be on Mars in the early 80's!) didn't strategically align with the technology development investments needed to pump money into the defense contractors. And when the cold war ended, it became all the more critical to crank up the construction of the ISS to ensure the key expertise was maintained at the set of contractors deemed strategic to national security.
Why do you think the ridiculous work is still going on with Orion? To keep important NASA and defense contractor skills working on new technology.
I think it will be a while before our moon territory revolts. One of the main things missing for this to happen is a population.
"Big rockets were needed for big nukes." -- at least this was factually incorrect by the time NASA came around in 1958. The military originally developed the Saturn I, predecessor to Apollo's Saturn IB and Saturn V in the late 50's/early 60's but gave it up to NASA when they determined that they had no military use for a rocket that big -- the nukes were coming down nicely in size. When the military later needed boosters bigger than their biggest ICBM (Titan II) they independently developed the Titan III and its successors which were cheaper than the Saturns. I've also heard the "Skylab Spy Station" theory before but don't buy it because the Air Force had their own spy station in the works (Manned Orbiting Laboratory) pretty far along in the 60's with astronauts and everything then gave it up because their unmanned spy satellites were doing the job.