Slashdot Mirror
NSA Spying Hurts California's Business
mspohr points out an opinion piece from Joe Mathews that "makes the argument that California's economic life depends on global connections. 'Our leading industries — shipping, tourism, technology, and entertainment — could not survive, much less prosper, without the trust and goodwill of foreigners. We are home to two of the world's busiest container ports, and we are a leading exporter of engineering, architectural, design, financial, insurance, legal, and educational services. All of our signature companies — Apple, Google, Facebook, Oracle, Intel, Hewlett-Packard, Chevron, Disney — rely on sales and growth overseas. And our families and workplaces are full of foreigners; more than one in four of us were born abroad, and more than 50 countries have diaspora populations in California of more than 10,000.' It quotes John Dvorak: 'Our companies have billions and billions of dollars in overseas sales and none of the American companies can guarantee security from American spies. Does anyone but me think this is a problem for commerce?' It points out that: 'Asian governments and businesses are now moving their employees and systems off Google's Gmail and other U.S.-based systems, according to Asian news reports. German prosecutors are investigating some of the American surveillance. The issue is becoming a stumbling block in negotiations with the European Union over a new trade agreement. Technology experts are warning of a big loss of foreign business.' The article goes on to suggest that perhaps a California constitutional amendment confirming privacy rights might help (but would not guarantee a stop to Federal snooping)."
All this caring about what foreigners think sounds Unamerican to me.
What does the dgse and other agencies do all day?
Xbox?
Seriously. We've been saying this for decades. Secure it.
Top to bottom encryption, compartmentalization, etc.
Make it so the NSA just can't tap your communication.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
less foreigners == more american STEMs getting hired?
Or the work just gets done overseas. It is probably roughly 50 / 50.
I dont read
Seccede from the union? Then you're just as much a furriner to the NSA as the rest of the world. And thus fair game to spying operations that have gotten a little out of hand. To the point that you can no longer say "don't do that" to the people doing it. It is so much out of control that you have to shut down the machine entirely and scap it. And please don't rebuild it, not even from scratch.
This also shows how utterly provincial the USoA really is. It takes an outlier like California to look outside the borders with anything but thinly-veiled suspicion. And that also means that the USoA is not really fit for playing the world's neighbourhood cop, since that is a position of trust, not power. It doesn't surprise, then, that there's quite a difference between how the rest of the world sees what it's done and the stellar job it itself thinks it has done.
That's the exact same reason why a murderer should be sure to always safely dispose of the victim's body, clean up traces and never speak to anyone about the crime. Confessing it will never do him any good...
$(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
This is talking about less foreign business for U.S.-based companies, e.g. European companies getting wary of hosting their stuff on a U.S.-based cloud provider. It is not discussing immigration, which doesn't have much to do with the NSA.
Less foreign business for U.S.-based companies would probably not increase the number of U.S.-based engineering jobs.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
If you demonstrate that your industry is an arm of state surveillance, why would you be surprised that when this is revealed people stop trusting you?
Every other country in the world now more or less has to assume that these American companies can (and will) provide their data for US national intelligence -- at which point the logical choice is to stop using those US companies.
Much like if companies from another country were found to be enabling widespread spying on US citizens, there would be outcry in the US and backlash.
I don't see why anybody should be surprised that if you undermine trust, there will be consequences.
Some of these companies were already very casual with what they were collecting (eg Google and the wifi passwords when doing Street View). If they were likely handing this kind of stuff over to the US government, even less so.
Once damaged, trust is a very difficult thing to get back. If Google and everyone else though they were under scrutiny for their privacy policies before, then they should really expect a lot more of it.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
It's a Monday, and /. is stating the bleedin' obvious.
What's less obvious is how much NSA snooping hurts US companies. I doubt it's nearly enough to be able to call it a justification for dismantling the infrastructure.
Anti-terrorism is the excuse for spying. Business is the real purpose. When the countries we spy on the most can be ranked in terms of size of economy, there is no fucking way the government can keep claiming that the purpose for these spying programs is anything other than to keep the powerful people powerful.
For example, revelations were made that we target Germany for spying. It only makes sense if you look at the size of the economies. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/nsa-spies-on-500-million-german-data-connections-a-908648.html
Yes, NSA spying will hurt California's business.. and it should. Instead of giving in to the secret government's secret demands, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and everyone else should be fighting these anti-democratic efforts tooth and nail.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
Oh, I see what you're doing. You're insinuating that this is all Obama's doing, as if this hasn't been the Government trend for many decades. It's funny that they've got you believing this is a difference between political parties.
Because heaven forbid you blame it on your sense of entitlement to spy on everybody.
Sorry, but if you think this is entirely the fault of people who pointed out that the US does this, you've lost the plot.
If ever that had come to light, the response would have been the same.
Now that it's been demonstrated that American industry are government lapdogs who will roll over at the first sign from their masters, of course people are going to cut and run and stop trusting them. They're no less trustworthy now than a few weeks ago -- it's just that now we know you can't trust them and haven't been able to for some time.
Fuck your business and your shareholder value. You made this mess, not us.
German citizen here, and one working it IT Security for almost two decades now. I have been advocating the use of strong encryption and keeping the crown jewels "in the house" to my employers and customers all the time, but managers would often not listen in order to save the odd buck on the next outsourcing deal.
By launching and funding the spy programmes the US government has willingly accepted possibly detrimental effects on the economy.
In my opinion it serves the US companies right that finally the time has come that companies and people all over the world actually start looking at whom they make business with. The USA have decided to spy on every single person on this planet - OK, but now don't complain that this hurts your economy. If US companies don't like what's happening then they should complain to your government and make them change things.
A lot of trust has been destroyed, and it will take the US economy some effort to regain it. Work hard, and maybe some day in the future I will no longer advise my customers and friends to avoid US services.
We repeatedly hear that NSA is spying for industrial reasons. To give advantage to American companies. But the NYSE is full of foreign companies that are traded here. And those companies are in complex derivative markets. And the retirement portfolios of Americans. If its an truly international market now, but American companies are benefiting from the spying, then Americans are being hurt. Perhaps the difference is that foreign companies cannot contribute to politicians and political parties. Maybe that is the difference.
Which, sadly, is something people have already been warning about for some time.
That the PATRIOT act allowed the US to force US based companies to provide them this data has been known for some time. Many governments have policies which say you can't put anything into the cloud because it has a good chance of hitting a US controlled server and you would potentially have them accessing it.
Ever before this revelation came out, many people were pointing out that this was a very real possibility and likely already happening.
Now that it's been confirmed, people are suddenly realizing just how bad an idea it always was. But people have been identifying this as a risk for some time now.
This is a self inflicted injury.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I remember telling a friend on 9-11 that we would do way more damage to OURSELVES with our response to 9-11 than 9-11 or any other terrorist attack would ever do directly. That's the whole point of terrorism, really. The amount of lives we've lost (and took) since, the economic damage we've done, the national debt we've incurred, the international goodwill we've squandered--they all make the actual damage done by direct terrorist attacks pale in comparison.
And I was hardly alone in seeing this coming. But the U.S. government still played out the script almost exactly as expected, right down to the internment camps, the curtailing of civil liberties, the assassinations, the spying, etc. It's like a historical play that we NEVER LEARN FROM.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
less foreigners == more american STEMs getting hired?
Or the work just gets done overseas. It is probably roughly 50 / 50.
Where it still gets spied on.
less foreigners == more american STEMs getting hired?
Or the work just gets done overseas. It is probably roughly 50 / 50.
Unlikely. Trade has to be a huge net benefit otherwise it doesn't get done because the companies that are involved in it have to cover huge costs (transport; multinational lawyers; dealing with multiple regulations; insurance; security people; translations; business travel for sales; moving support people etc.). From the point of view of the place that it's done in, all those costs are employed people.
Furthermore, one country trades with many. Thus, for California which is effectively a trade hub, especially for IT services, the benefit is disproportionate.
In any case, this is unlikely in any way to influence the influx of poorer than you Indian workers coming for money. It's rather going to influence richer than you German and Swiss companies trying to buy things off you. When the company heads know that their customers might be spied on then they are breaking the law by outsourcing to the US. They may end up in jail and they have to move their work away from the US.
Difficult case in my view. The US approach that you shouldn't let your data be gathered, but once it is you have no control is not working. The European approach that the data should be under full control of the person who owns it clearly doesn't work properly for secret services. No idea how you restore trust now.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Exactly the opposite. This is why it was necessary that the programs never be started. I don't care if you're a private citizen, a church, a corporation, or a government. If you're committing acts that have to be kept SECRET, then you're doing something wrong. No, we don't need lurid details of your sex life behind closed doors - but yeah, we figure you're banging each other at night, Mr. and Mrs. Private citizen. No, we don't need to examine your church doctrine, we don't much care - but if you're having initiation orgies and human sacrifices that you are keeping secret, then it's WRONG. Businesses can have trade secrets of course, but deliveries, shipments, and financial transactions should be an open book for auditors. And, government. Yeah, we know you spy. It's cool, up to a point. But if you're a paranoid bunch of assholes who need to keep track of everyone and everything that happens - it's time for you to take a hike. We need a new government. It's really that simple. Remember - you work for us, not the other way around.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
It may be true. However, it is useless to talk about what if because it's been done and cannot be undone. No good to keep talking about this. What should be talking about is how to deal with it and how to recover from the damage.
Trust? WTF trusts us, anyway? Ignore everything and anything we may have done wrong prior to 9/11/01. Let's call that water under the bridge. WTF have we done SINCE 9/11/01 to earn or to bolster anyone trust in us? What has government done to earn the trust of US citizens, much less the trust of foreign citizens, corporations, or governments?
I'm having a very hard time seeing anything of the nature.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
This is why it was necessary to keep the programs secret and why the leaks didn't do any good.
First of all, you had good reason to post anonymously: you should be ashamed of yourself. Secondly, your comment brings two quotes to mind:
"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." — Eric Schmidt
"Security through obscurity is no security at all." — Bruce Schneier
That the revelation of these expensive, ineffectual, unethical, and unconstitutional programs may have harmful repercussions for national security and the economy is not (in my opinion) a good argument for secrecy, but an excellent argument for not starting such programs, shutting the existing ones down, and not starting similar ones in the future.
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
Californians voted for bigger, more intrusive government. They got it. They should accept the consequences.
Just California? Neither Gary Johnson nor Jill Stein won any states.
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
That's not the point. If you are not going to transact business in a country specifically over the concern about your puppies being killed, you should be aware of which other countries kill puppies as a matter of routine governmental intelligence gathering. And by which others, I mean all of them. In fact, I would say that any country who doesn't kill puppies as part of their internal intelligence operations either has no significant stake in world affairs or is lying. Killing puppies is a fact of modern intelligence gathering; no, let me restate that - killing puppies has always been a fact of all intelligence gathering: governmental, corporate, and private.
To pull out of a country over a "moral issue" and then to ignore such moral issues occurring everywhere else is just grandstanding.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Which is exactly why it was the perfect quote for this occation! Same words, even same meaning, yet suddenly almost opposite meaning. Loved it.
This reminds of how they got Capone on income-tax evasion: it wasn't his (allegedly) serious and morally reprehensible crimes which did him in the end. Likewise, the overreach (such an understatement) of the NSA and "justice" department is now having serious consequences, not just the ones you would expect (e.g,. widespread moral outrage, constitutional crisis, shutting down and arrests). Things will change because of money, not moral outrage.
Quite true in that law is only effective when it is followed and enforced. If people aren't RIOTING about the law makers and law enforcement offices of the nation not following the laws and the judicial not enforcing them, then it just shows that people seriously lack comprehension of just how bad things really are.
Californians voted for bigger, more intrusive government. They got it. They should accept the consequences.
Right, because all government action is the same. If you vote for tighter pollution controls, you should expect to have your communications recorded.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Secede. Get rid of the federal beast sucking at your throat while simulatenously choking it.
It'll make it easier for the rest of us to do the same, and then maybe we can finally know some peace.
Yah, the problem has always been with the bean counters who don't understand technology and who are all gung ho about the cloudy thing in order to save a few pennies. Now at least, one can point out the potential cost of all the law suits and lost business due to the loose control over information as a countering force.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
And yet, people have been doing it.
Well, then sadly the people who have been making the business decisions do not have that 1/16th of a brain required to see the risks inherent in these services -- or they were so focused on short-term savings they stopped looking at the risks.
It's been known for years that this was a risk, but companies kept doing it anyway.
Now that it's been spelled out in black and white that it's not just a risk but a reality, companies are going to have to re-evaluate if they still think it's worth doing.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
You keep giving them more and more power. And you keep being surprised when that power is used against you.
I don't care if you're a private citizen, a church, a corporation, or a government. If you're committing acts that have to be kept SECRET, then you're doing something wrong.
This sounds exactly like "if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have anything to worry about from the NSA spying".
California's high cost of living, taxes, urban sprawl, over regulation, and bankrupt state budget is more a risk to California's business than some speculated blowback from NSA revelations.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Yes I am for real.
The state is the expression of the collective will of a society. The more advanced and democratic that society, the more likely it is to reflect the collective will. That will reflects that society's priorities, hopes and fears.
As it were, it appears, judging by the size of the US military, that the US as a nation are fearful and paranoid.
That might be a difficult concept for an American to grasp, but it's an uncomfortable truth.
Don't pretend that "the government" is some distant, remote entity. Last time I looked, the government was staffed, run and overseen by citizens too.
Don't like it? Then do something about it. Then the change must come from society, and government will reflect that change. That's already been demonstrated through the civil rights era and the Vietnam War.
Just don't lie to yourself that you aren't "the government".
Pro tip: Slashdot is a US based service.
Also, it's spelled "tyranny".
If you think you have nothing to hide from the government, maybe you should consider that some 250 people have so far been let off death row due to DNA testing which finally overturned their conviction-- presumably many of these were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and/or pursued by an over-zealous prosecutor. Now imagine an over-zealous prosecutor with the ability to cherry-pick any bit of information he might want about you-- who you've called, where you've been, any email you've ever written, at any time in the past. You might also want to look at the reliability of the no-fly lists, and what happens to those who mistakenly end up on it or are mistaken for someone on it. When the government gets it wrong, you can go to jail, or worse. And the government gets it wrong on a regular basis.
yeah... he mistrust only really impacts foreign countries buying our products and services. Individual foreigners and companies will likely still happily take our money to sell us products and services.
Exactly. Remember the hype surrounding US companies buying Huawei equipment because of spy concerns? It seems to me that the roles are reversed now... The Chinese government has an excellent argument to ban US manufactured equipment from their networks and country.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
California tech industry is a lot about intellectual property.What if the world decide to dismiss US intellectual property because US dismissed the intellectual property of just everyone else?
I was recently at an IT conference in Geneva.
A speaker from a large company there warned those attending (mainly from Europe) to avoid US cloud companies because of NSA spying. Not just US-based servers, but also any company with SUPPORT STAFF located in the US as well, even if the servers are located outside of the US.
Reason 1 is the risk of private company information flowing to competitors through the NSA either officially or through corruption.
Reason 2 is the legal risk of falling afoul of EU privacy laws by hosting in the US or with US support staff.
That's the report from Europe folks. You can call it FUD, but it is there nonetheless.