New Zealand Government About To Legalize Spying On NZ Citizens

Flere Imsaho writes "After admitting they have illegally spied on NZ citizens or residents 88 times (PDF) since 2003, the government, in a stunning example of arse covering, is about to grant the GCSB the right to intercept the communications of New Zealanders in its role as the national cyber security agency, rather than examine the role the GCSB should play and then look at the laws. There has been strong criticism from many avenues. The bill is being opposed by Labor and the Greens, but it looks like National now have the numbers to get this passed. Of course, the front page story is all about the royal baby, with this huge erosion of privacy relegated to a small article near the bottom of the front page. Three cheers, the monarchy is secure, never mind the rights of the people. More bread and circuses anyone?"

Comments

Is Sauron in the gov there?

[Anonymous Coward]

--A concerned Hobbit.

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[Anachragnome]

"Is Sauron in the gov there?"

Sauron has been the US president for some time. "One Spy-Ring to rule them all", etc, etc.

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[amiga3D]

It seems we've had Sauron in charge for some time now. He looks different, Old white dude, Hick white dude, Goofy white dude and Smooth black dude. Different looks, same old Sauron. The all seeing eye.

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[mysidia]

Something a bit darker than Sauron; unfortunately... no hobbit can take down this evil with just a ring and the fires of hell....

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[davester666]

Sorry, those are just the front men.

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[Internetuser1248]

"Is Sauron in the gov there?"

Sauron has been the US president for some time. "One Spy-Ring to rule them all", etc, etc.

I think John Key is better compared with Gríma Wormtongue. Which would make David Cameron Saruman.

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[crutchy]

now you have a black eye

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes!

Re:Is Sauron in the gov there?

[morgauxo]

Sauron is the gov everywhere now. Where have you been?

Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[WillAffleckUW]

But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the US.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[WillAffleckUW]

Or the US.

Well, yes, but we're insane, so we don't count.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[iggymanz]

sad news for you, the UK does not have a constitution; anything that Parliament makes law goes

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[master5o1]

What NZ Constitution are you talking about?

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop repeating this ignorant lie.
The UK does have a constitution.
It doesn't have a written constitution.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[blackraven14250]

Not having a written constitution is effectively not having a constitution.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

This one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_New_Zealand

edit: I love the captcha for this post: fascism

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

New Zealand has constitutional documents (The Treaty of Waitangi, The New Zealand Bill Of Rights Act etc) just not a single Constitution because we copied England's system.
HAVING a constitution would be a good idea, then we could entrench things like protection from being spied on, environmental protection (including not mining conservation land) etc... Although we'd probably need to do something to stop the people like the current government from editing it under """urgency""".

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Runaway1956]

No, no, no - the Queen has her morning constitution pretty regulalry, then wipes with Royal constitution paper!

The Constitution of the United Kingdom is the set of laws and principles under which the United Kingdom is governed.[1]

Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[SplashMyBandit]

As a Kiwi I once heard some talk that the indigenous Maori were all for a New Zealand Constitution as it would enshrine the Treaty of Waitangi. However, someone pointed out that this would also limit the extent of the Treaty of Waitangi, whereas now it is kinda amorphous as to what it covers (Maori apparently had ownership rights of radio waves for TV and radio, and required compensation for the use of use). Note, I'm part NZ-Maori. I'm just pointing out something interesting I heard about the maneuverings of interested parties for a NZ Constitution and why one sector of society supported it and then dropped support. Perhaps what I heard was wrong - but it seems plausible to me.

I also heard that the multi-culturalists seem to think that Sharia is 'harmless' and should be recognized in a New Zealand Constitution. This is such a bad idea I'm surprised it had not been slapped down violently straight away - but the 'left' (Labour and Greens, in NZ political terms) is full of people who are staggeringly fact-free, and only think in the most 'woolly' of terms (let's hold hands and sing kumbaya with jihadis, eh?). Sharia has been trying to make inroads into NZ:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4366743/Sharia-decision-lets-baby-boy-into-NZ
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/6406555/Collins-dismisses-call-to-establish-Islamic-tourism
Sorry to wander slightly off-topic in my response to post about the NZ Constitution. I'm just trying to point out to fellow kiwis that 'Godzone' is as much under threat by the Cultural Jihad of stealth Sharia as anywhere else (US, Britain etc) except that we have even weaker Free Speech protections than elsewhere.

New Zealand Governments are generally benign. Putting in spying on citizens with very few legal protections and hoping that the Government will always be benign is stupid. Hopefully someone will have a bright idea on how to stop this (anyone?).

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[WillAffleckUW]

I'm fairly certain the Barons would disagree with you, as they did at Hastings, sir.

But, technically, it is a series of documents, and then there is the EU constitution, which itself is more of a treaty, somewhat like how Canada had the BNA (British North American Act, in the British Parliament) until 1967.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Isaac Remuant]

Someday we'll realize all these divisions and patriotism only help to keep us occupied and divided instead of trying to find a way to avoid the corruption of those with power/money.

We're all humans after all, no matter what religion, ideology or place of birth.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[JustOK]

...until 1982

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Jane Q. Public]

"But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either."

Why are you excluding the United States? The US government has been doing its own astounding circumventions of our Constitution as well.

Take just for one very relevant example: the illegal, retroactive immunity granted telcos for illegally allowing the government to listen in on your communications.

---
"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." -- U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Sec. 9.

Re: Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

enumerating your rights hasn't worked out too well. Our government (US), has conveniently forgotten the part where we told them they have the power to do nothing except what was granted to them. Not the other way around.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[stenvar]

But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either.

Their constitutions/laws generally have fewer restrictions than US laws, and NSA-like spying has been commonplace in Europe.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/how_they_do_it/2006/02/wiretapping_europeanstyle.html

The outrage in the US is over the fact that the NSA and the president are trying to get around the letter and intent of the Constitution and the law. In many other countries, it's more a policy issue, not a question of legality.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[iggymanz]

that definition is just blather and babbling; since Parliament can and has made laws ot violate and take away those supposed "laws and principles". the UK has no constitution, the citizens have no rights.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

And when there is a protest or heaven forbid, domestic terrorism, the governments wonder why.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[dccase]

Someday we'll realize all these divisions and patriotism only help to keep us occupied and divided

You can pry the Designated Hitter rule out of my cold dead hands.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[amiga3D]

That's the problem. We're all human. Insane by birth.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[amiga3D]

You still have the right to breath. I think there's a tax coming for that though.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

Not according to centuries of legal precedent.

Re: Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

That made me laugh. Yes, we are insane, but I moved to NZ to get away from that thinking. Maybe Raro next!mthanks for the chuckle.

Re: Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

enumerating your rights hasn't worked out too well. Our government (US), has conveniently forgotten the part where we told them they have the power to do nothing except what was granted to them. Not the other way around.

They have forgotten nothing, it is the people that have forgotten.

Also, to get rid of an oppressive government it is more important to have the right to assembly than the right to bear arms. A man with a gun can do nothing against the government. A million men with nothing but bread for hats doesn't need guns.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

I am from the U.S., and I can confirm our country and its leaders as being insane.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

NZ does not have a constitution.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either.

How nice that you consider the UK so important that you mention it twice

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[toshikodo]

... and unlike countries with a formal written constitution, we aren't shackled to a set of rules that made sense 200 years ago, but now look totally absurd.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[hawkinspeter]

Techically, the UK and Britain are different (there's more places in the UK).

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

The great thing is the staggering hypocrisy of Labor in this. The GCSB was only doing under Key what they were doing under Clarke. As for the Greens, you simply will not convince me that Marxists won't use these power given the chance. It's just more of the same and if Sheerer becomes PM it won't change.

Re: Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[crutchy]

A million men with nothing but bread for hats doesn't need guns

you're absolutely right... what good would guns be against thousands of trigger-happy police and homeland security officers, as well as army and national guard units, with armoured vehicles, high pressure water cannons, automatic weapons, tear gas, tasers, and a myriad of other anti-riot munitions at their disposal?

not to mention access to support from the air force and marines if required

the US constitution has been revised with inspiration from Mein Kampf, and the military industrial complex is eager to exercise its new constitutional rights

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[buchner.johannes]

Yes, warrentless wiretapping is a problem. (I'll not talk about Britain here)

But spot the difference between allowing police to track specific phones for investigations and the NSA recording all communications for everyone, forever.

The police can be held accountable. There is a paper trail of who accessed what and how often. These stats are made available. That's the difference.

Yes, the Data Retention Directive is problematic, and we should push to limit the storage time limit to 2 weeks. The fight against this directive is still ongoing, as it is costly and unnecessarily invasive to privacy.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

"but now look totally absurd"... LOL.
Which ones look "absurd" to you?

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cheekyjohnson]

Yeah, and the US government has violated the US constitution many times, and continues to do so; governments seem to derive pleasure from doing that sort of thing.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[crashcy]

illegally allowing the government

That phrase made me laugh. Who is supposed to prosecute someone for illegally allowing the government to do something?

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[spacepimp]

You think the liberties that were important then are irrelevant today? Please explain yourself further and prove yourself a fool. Right now it is just an educated guess on my part.

Re: Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[lexsird]

Of course you can't fight them straight up, it's the most advanced police state and military in the world. Of course discussing revolutionary tactics will most likely get you a free trip to a more temperate climate for a contest of how well you can breath with a towel over your face and water being poured on it.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[stenvar]

But spot the difference between allowing police to track specific phones for investigations and the NSA recording all communications for everyone, forever.

Oh, there's indeed a big difference.

The US situation used to be that the only way to wiretap US citizens in the US was with a specific court order; the NSA and CIA were not permitted to do it. That was based on Constitutional protections. The uproar is over the NSA violating this.

European nations never had such protections in the first place. Many national security agencies in Europe have, for a long time, engaged in widespread monitoring and wiretapping, and they are allowed to under their laws. In addition, the legal protections from wiretapping and monitoring by police are also generally weaker in Europe than the US. Germany has been pretty bad in both of these areas (assuming you're from Germany). In addition, Germany after WWII additionally became subject to extensive monitoring by US intelligence, and rightfully so, and Germany has never even attempted to make an argument that this should stop.

Furthermore, countries in which stuff like this happens have no credibility in terms of privacy and limits on state power:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/abhoeren-von-linken-abgeordneten-friedrich-verteidigt-spitzelei-als-fruehwarnsystem-a-811570.html

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[lexsird]

He's probably quoting the Traitor in Chief when he mentioned how he thought the Constitution was outdated and such.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[CrimsonAvenger]

You can pry the Designated Hitter rule out of my cold dead hands.

Blasphemer!!!

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you excluding the United States

Why are you bitching about excluding the US but not complaining about them excluding China, Russia, and pretty much any other government on the planet?
The reason he's excluding the US is most likely that nobody is under any illusions of the US not spying on their population. But there seems to be this "Holier than Thou" attitude coming out of a lot of European nations, and they need to be reminded their governments aren't any better.

Take just for one very relevant example: the illegal, retroactive immunity granted telcos

Just because you want it to be illegal doesn't make it so.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[houghi]

I am happy that soon they will not be doing the spying illegally anymore.
The spying will be legal. I hope that many other countries will follow this example.

Perhaps for the USofA, who like wordplay and say "combatant" because it makes it possible to keep them for forever and a day, we could use a word like "Curiosity" instead of "Spying".

Yes, "Curiosity" sounds double plus good. Let me try that in a sentence "The department of Truth handles all Curiosity." Yep,. Sounds great. Please make it so.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cavreader]

The US Constitution has always been and will continue to be a work in process. The original writers had no conception of how much life would change through time due to technological progression. Computer technology alone would look like magic to someone living in 1776. Collecting data is not in itself a violation of constitutional rights. It's how the data is used against the citizenry that counts and the harm caused by the use of such data. Electronic surveillance is not limited to just the government and right now private companies and determined criminals represent more of a danger than the government.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cheekyjohnson]

A work in progress? So in other words, they can do whatever they want; that's a nice way of thinking, and it benefits them, too!

Computer technology alone would look like magic to someone living in 1776.

Irrelevant.

Collecting data is not in itself a violation of constitutional rights.

No, it's not, and no one said so. The way they're doing it and how they're doing it, however, does violate the constitution.

Electronic surveillance is not limited to just the government and right now private companies and determined criminals represent more of a danger than the government.

That's completely irrelevant, even if true (Which I doubt, because the chances of an individual getting killed by a terrorist are minuscule, and almost everything else is petty compared to what the government is able to do. Even if that weren't so, I don't feel the government should be able to violate the constitution.). The government is violating the constitution and I absolutely feel that the thugs need to be stopped in their tracks.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[toshikodo]

I think the right to vote would be an excellent example. I live in the UK and 200 years ago only gentlemen of means had the right to vote. That made sense to those in power back then as the peasants were uneducated, and couldn't possibly know how to vote correctly. Today the "peasants" are educated and can make informed decisions. If the UK had a 200 year old written constitution, would there be those that arguing that universal suffrage is unconstitutional and should not be allowed? Who knows.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you please list even a mere single country that is sane? Last I checked, all countries were insane, just the version of insanity varied from country to country. For instance, the UK has their libel laws and Canada has even worse telecom monopolies than the US.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cavreader]

Society is always changing. Sometimes in a good way and sometimes in a bad way. Laws and acceptable behavioral standards also change with the society and the laws and rules that govern the society need to be reviewed and updated to keep pace.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cheekyjohnson]

Society is always changing. Sometimes in a good way and sometimes in a bad way.

I had no idea. Really.

Laws and acceptable behavioral standards also change with the society and the laws and rules that govern the society need to be reviewed and updated to keep pace.

But it becomes a problem for me when the government blatantly violates the constitution, as it is now.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[wisnoskij]

I think they were just sticking to first-world countries. It would take too long to include every petty third-world dictatorship in that list.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[toshikodo]

Why a fool? What part of my original post even hinted at liberties being unimportant? My point was that what was important 200 years ago could be absurd today. In the UK, in 1813, slavery was legal (and would be for another two decades). Imagine if the UK came up with a written constitution at that time. It is not unreasonable to say that that constitution would enshrined the right to own slaves, and if such a document existed I am reasonably sure that land owners who depended on slave labour would argue that emancipation of slaves was unconstitutional. My point is that the world changes, and that having an written constitution can be a bad thing because it is difficult to change as those with a vested interest will go to the courts if they think that their "constitutional rights" are being undermined.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[toshikodo]

a) Just wondering why do you think I am a he - clearly some very narrow minded thinking on your part? b) Who is this traitor in chief? Obama? I deliberately did not mention the constitution of any country. The argument is about whether historic norms are always going to be acceptable centuries later. Clearly they are not. Slavery being a bloody good example.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[lexsird]

You are using slavery as your example? Are you a refuge from a special ed class or what? That was resolved a long time ago, don't you have something to go color with crayons?

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cavreader]

Next time I will use simpler words to aid in your comprehension. And exactly what way is the government violating the constitution? I don't recall seeing any of the government programs being declared illegal in a judicial proceeding. In the future it may happen but someone will have initiate a court case to enable an in depth judicial review. Or is something unconstitutional just because you say so? Laws are made and passed by the executive and legislative branches which may be vetted by legal experts prior to submitting and passing any changes in the law but until it is tested by the Judicial branch in a real world case you can't definitively state the law is unconstitutional. Some one who feels their rights are being violated or someone who has suffered harm will need to contest the charges and laws in court. This is standard practice and in the past the judiciary has struck down laws they found wanting. There are 2 well publicized cases where the defendants were charged with crimes under the Patriot Act and in each case the judiciary declared the Patriot Act provisions were unenforceable and the charges against the defendants were dropped. Why do you think Gitmo exists? The government knows if they were to attempt to try the inmates at Gitmo in the US judicial system the entire Patriot Act could be nullified.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[iggymanz]

I believe that event has come and gone in many english speaking countries, For example, President Obama has agreed to and continues the practice of revoking the right to breath of Americans labeled as "terrorists" with neither due process nor oversight

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cheekyjohnson]

I don't recall seeing any of the government programs being declared illegal in a judicial proceeding.

Or is something unconstitutional just because you say so?

Is something constitutional just because corrupt government thugs say so? Their opinions may matter the most in practice, but they're not always right. Authority figures can be wrong; they're humans with opinions just like anyone else.

Laws are made and passed by the executive and legislative branches which may be vetted by legal experts prior to submitting and passing any changes in the law but until it is tested by the Judicial branch in a real world case you can't definitively state the law is unconstitutional.

TSA. Free speech zones. The NSA spying where warrants that include millions of innocent Americans are rubberstamped by a court whose decisions are typically secret. The government does all sorts of things that fill me with certainty that they're violating the constitution, and though I've read some supreme court decisions trying to claim that the government is acting in a constitutional manner, I wasn't fooled one bit.

I can state that some laws are unconstitutional; I'm a living, breathing human being with opinions. When I use the word "unconstitutional," I simply mean that the government's actions violate the constitution.

Some one who feels their rights are being violated or someone who has suffered harm will need to contest the charges and laws in court.

Lots of people's rights were violated, but the government makes it difficult to fight back when they claim secrecy on everything. The TSA and free speech zones can be fought, I suppose, but I believe the TSA already has been, and the judges (and lawyers) demonstrated their knowledge about newspeak to try to get around the constitution.

This is standard practice and in the past the judiciary has struck down laws they found wanting.

Yeah.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cavreader]

"When I use the word "unconstitutional," I simply mean that the government's actions violate the constitution."

Once again is something unconstitutional just because you say so? The free speech zones were created to minimize the disruption for those not participating in the protests (ie. snarling traffic as one example). Most importantly it was created for security purposes. Large and rowdy crowds forming around top politicians or VIP's are extremely difficult to secure. You are just one suicide vest away from death and carnage. You are still free to speak your mind and carry on with your protest and in no way does this prevent you from exercising your constitutional rights. Free speech doesn't mean you have the right to speak your mind nose to nose. The TSA is a response to the events of 9/11. A large majority of people wanted the government to do something to prevent any similar events in the future. Sure it's a gigantic pain in the ass and I personally don't care if they closed down the TSA today but the US citizens did want the government to bolster the security in air travel. Reverting back to the previous security procedures prior to 9/11 would be fine.

"Lots of people's rights were violated"

Once again you are defining what is and what is not constitutional based solely on your opinion. You are also making an unsubstantiated statement about the government invoking secrecy to prevent someone from getting a fair trial. Find one example of someone being convicted of a crime using "secret" evidence. One reason Gitmo is still holding people is that any prosecution would require the government to produce all the evidence to support the charges and they do not want to do that. However the Gitmo inmates are not US citizens so they are not automatically granted the same rights of a US citizen. Currently this situation has not been definitely settled.

" standard practice and in the past the judiciary has struck down laws they found wanting"

This has happened quite a few times. There has also been constitutional amendments made when the existing constitution was found wanting.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cheekyjohnson]

Once again is something unconstitutional just because you say so?

Just because I say so? Well, no. But if I say that something is unconstitutional, that is simply my opinion, and the same applies to any judge (even if, again, their opinions have more of an effect in practice).

The free speech zones were created to minimize the disruption for those not participating in the protests (ie. snarling traffic as one example).

Irrelevant. If someone is punished for their speech, it is a violation of their first amendment rights, regardless of their location. Using this logic, the government could ban certain speech in entire states and claim that the first amendment was not violated simply because people could move elsewhere and exercise their rights. This is just a foolish newspeak justification.

I firmly believe that security is far less important than individual liberties, and that people who find such things acceptable are absolute cowards who don't belong in any free country.

The TSA is a response to the events of 9/11.

Irrelevant. It's security theater, and it's a violation of people's constitutional rights.

A large majority of people wanted the government to do something to prevent any similar events in the future.

Irrelevant. Constitutional rights come before the majority's wants.

Once again you are defining what is and what is not constitutional based solely on your opinion.

Well, of course.

You are also making an unsubstantiated statement about the government invoking secrecy to prevent someone from getting a fair trial.

You've seriously not heard of cases where the government invoked the national security excuse to prevent cases from going forward?

Find one example of someone being convicted of a crime using "secret" evidence.

Where did I mention secret evidence?

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[cheekyjohnson]

If you trust the government, I have to say that your trust is misplaced and that you're seriously naive. You're giving them the benefit of the doubt and seemingly defending authoritarian practices, and I do not for a yoctosecond believe they deserve any of it.

Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution

[Trogre]

The Treaty of Waitangi may become a constitutional document one day, if it is ever ratified. As it stands, it is an otherwise worthless historical document that is waved around by nefarious powers in order to create division.

Good enough for Frodo and Bilbo!

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can spy on hobbits, so be it for the rest of the land!

jesus H christ.

[wierd_w]

What is it with these dumbfucks in govt, being so pussified by other govts and their clearly "over the line" demands for intelligence feeds, that they feel it is not only justified, but clearly essential that they just blanket-endorse and "MAKE it legal" (to borrow emperor palpatine's line), for them to just roll over and BEG for more ass fucking?

Seriously? Can't they just fucking grow a pair, and tell the US to go get stuffed by a 2000lb bull elephant with genital warts?

Re:jesus H christ.

[mi]

And lose the cooperating of their American counterparts? There is very little difference between NZ, Australia, Spain, or United States in the jihaddists' eyes. If a particular target is not as well-defended, they'll strike there, whether it is in the Western, Easter, Northern or Southern part of the world.

Complaining about the potential abuse of a government's surveillance power is all well and good, but their actual results may well be quite good — they just wouldn't tell us so as not tell the enemy of how to evade future detection.

Now I personally am not at all sure, the potential abuse is a fair price to pay for the actual prevention — maybe, just maybe, loosing a few hundred of fellow citizens per year is better for the rest of the country, than giving the Executive branch the power to suppress opposition. Oh, wait...

Re:jesus H christ.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously? Can't they just fucking grow a pair, and tell the US to go get stuffed by a 2000lb bull elephant with genital warts?

If you think non-US governments aren't keenly eager to keep tabs on their own citizens, you're a rather large fool.

Protip: The US is broke. We're not going to come liberate the fuck out of you and drop 2500 pound Democracy bombs on you unless you're a nation of dirt farmers. Your politicians are doing this because *they* want to know that you're down with crossdressing midgets crossplaying as women crossplaying as male versions of the cast of Sailor Moon.

Re:jesus H christ.

[wierd_w]

I think I am going to be violently ill.

It isn't "potential abuse of power", when it is being reported AFTER THE FACT!

Giving those people MORE power to abuse, after they have already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted with the powers they have already obtained, is beyond incomprehensible!

Seriously, all NZ has to do is point a few of those major headlines out, and say "No thank you USA. We would be happy to assist you, LEGALLY, in any LEGAL investigation you may have, but the requests you send us must obey OUR soveriegn rights and laws. Since you seem to have a hard time following even your own laws, we can't really honor your requests for additional intelligence at this time, since the requests you keep sending us are clearly illegal and unconsionable."

But NO! The line of the day? Handwringing, squirming in their chairs like they have super 'roids, sweating, and heatedly whispering among themselves asking each other how they can break the law!

WTF!

Re:jesus H christ.

[wierd_w]

[Imagines female midget cosplaying as tuxedo mask. Realizes that it would be impossible to tell the difference. Retches]

*seriousness:

If NZ really really wants to spy on its own citizens, it makes MUCH more sense for them to deny the US's requests publicly, to draw much needed popular support, while enacting such policy clandestinely.

Re:jesus H christ.

[Runaway1956]

That actual prevention worked well at the Boston Marathon, didn't it? I was dumb founded at the government's efficiency on that one!

Re:jesus H christ.

[viperidaenz]

They can't deny US request publicly, when the whole Kim Dotcom thing brought it all out. We have the "Official Information Act" that brings these hidden things out to the media, who lodge OIA request constantly in the hopes of finding a scandal.

Re:jesus H christ.

[flaming error]

"There is very little difference between NZ, Australia, Spain, or United States in the jihaddists' eyes"

Kind of like there's little difference between putting on a massive stage spectacular at the West End, Broadway, Vegas Strip, or the Aleutian Islands.

Re:jesus H christ.

[wierd_w]

You are misunderstanding:

What they do, is make a big show of "cracking down" on the "illegal activities exposed" by the dotcom case, but in reality, the institute their own secret courts, and spy on their own citizens stazi style.

That way when the NZ media goes fishing, they can rightfully deny the snooping done "for US interests", since it is for domestic interests!

NZ just oh so politely GIVES the information away for free! It doesn't have to, but chooses to do so anyway. If ever asked about the documents shared with the USA, it can spout the same nationalist drivel we americans get treated with:

"Oh, that's an issue of national security! We can't reveal any information like that, because it would expose ongoing investigations and endanger lives! But don't worry, we don't conduct investigations of NZ citizens because the US asks us to. We make our own determination in accordance with strict guidelines on how and when we are needed to investigate NZ citizens, and we do so only as needed for our own investigations. Don't worry citizen, everything's fine."

Re:jesus H christ.

[Sabriel]

The US is the 2000lb bull elephant in the room, and it's the one that prefers to do the stuffing.

That said, yeah, the smell of sycophancy is awful.

Re:jesus H christ.

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe anyone who isn't a coward feels that security is less important than individual liberties. Why do you want a government unrestrained by the law? Has history's long line of corruption not given you enough of a reason to oppose such a thing with every fiber of your being?

Anyway, why do you seem to afraid that you have a 0.0000000001% chance of dying in a terrorist attack? These things are practically nonexistent, unconstitutional government spying or no.

Now I personally am not at all sure, the potential abuse is a fair price to pay for the actual prevention

No, it isn't.

Re:jesus H christ.

[CrimsonAvenger]

The US is the 2000lb bull elephant in the room, and it's the one that prefers to do the stuffing.

2000lb is a pretty tiny bull elephant....

Re:jesus H christ.

[mi]

It isn't "potential abuse of power", when it is being reported AFTER THE FACT!

It does not matter, when it is reported. What makes it a potential abuse of power is that — unlike, for example, the IRS' power to grant or deny tax-exempt status, or the Labor Department's power to conduct audits — it has not been abused yet.

Seriously, all NZ has to do is point a few of those major headlines out, and say "No thank you USA. We would be happy to assist you, LEGALLY, in any LEGAL investigation you may have, but the requests you send us must obey OUR soveriegn rights and laws.

Yes, and the US could say in return: "Ok, guys, you follow your laws to your hearts' content. But if we pick up evidence of somebody planning to release VX in Invercargill Art Gallery tomorrow, we will only inform you of it, if we obtained that information legally. And we'll use Royal Mail to deliver the notice to you — just in case."

For better or worse, governments are judged by their results, not means. I don't like it — it lets the Executive get away with too much, but that's a fact of life — the Boston Marathon bombing, likely, did more damage to Obama's Administration (despite the press' sympathies lying solidly with the Nobel Peace Prize winner), than NSA snooping on suspected terrorists damaged to Bush's Administration (despite the press being duly suspicious of government at the time). It is not limitless — NSA snooping on all of us is more damaging still, but the public can be quite forgiving of the means — as long as there are results.

heatedly whispering among themselves asking each other how they can break the law!

I'm not a cop and generally don't like them, but I do understand, how infuriating and frustrating it must feel to see a rapist or murderer walk free, because the arresting officer fumbled his Miranda-rights or some such. Don't you? Or when, indeed, some vital information passed by a friendly country can not be acted upon, because it did not arrive by "legal" channels...

Re:jesus H christ.

[mi]

Neither you nor me know, how many attacks were successfully prevented. The number may be zero, as you imply, or it may be once-per-week — we just don't know.

So, what were you trying to say, again?

Re:jesus H christ.

[mi]

Why do you want a government unrestrained by the law?

I do not. I'm just pointing out, things aren't as clear-cut as some claim. For example, if there were fewer roadblocks between FBI and CIA communicating back in the day, the 9/11 attack could, very likely, have been prevented. And then we, likely, would've never seen the Patriot Act appear on the books — for just one example...

Re:jesus H christ.

[Sabriel]

Good point. Would need an extra zero to be properly monstrous.

There's probably some sort of unintentional irony in there somewhere.

Re:jesus H christ.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an ends-justifies-the-means person.

I hope the police in your country arrest and torture you for information about a crime you didn't commit, then release you. After all, it's quite acceptable since it was in the name of justice!

Ashamed

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been a Kiwi all my life and have had some bad moments, and some moments when I'm damn proud to be one.

This however, is the first time I'm outright ashamed.

Re:Ashamed

[jemmyw]

I've been a Kiwi for about 18 months (do you get to adopt the nomenclature? Alright NZ citizen). You take the ups with the downs, we just legalised gay marriage, an up in my opinion. This is a down. I don't think many here care about this issue. On the up side though I think most people view our security service as somewhat inept blunders.

Re:Ashamed

[AK Marc]

It'd be a good topic for the fringe to take up. Have the ALCP and Pirate parties take up this as a banner issue. Get some votes away from National so that they can't do anything they want without some other party agreeing with them.

Re:Ashamed

[ctj]

Been a Kiwi all my life and I am damn PROUD of this correction to badly written law. Now we can have the GSCB properly support the Police and SIS in their lawful activities.

Re:Ashamed

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hey, my own issue was fixed, fuck everybody elses problems problems only gay marriage is an important issue."

Uh.. Don't get me wrong, I am very pro gay marriage, in-fact I think its illogical not to be, but I find your attitude abhorant, and kinda selfish.

"I've got mine just keep your hands off my stack"

Re:Ashamed

[Immerman]

>On the up side though I think most people view our security service as somewhat inept blunders.

How exactly is that an up side? I just means you get easily abusable invasive surveillance, without much realistic chance that anything beneficial will come of it.

Re:Ashamed

[Anonymous Coward]

The first time I was ashamed to be a Kiwi was when I accidentally watched an episode of The GC

Re:Ashamed

[jemmyw]

You misinterpret my reply. In fact this spying issue is more important to me personally than gay marriage, I just chose that as a recent example of positive personal/social liberty.

Revoluton. I'm calling for a peaceful revolution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Any and all politicians need to be peacefully booted/voted out of office.

Vote them out.

Vote against them.

Vote them out.

Assholes.

If we can't vote them out I call for passive aggressive revolt.

Delay their planes.

Put them in shitty investments.

Sell them shitty clothes.

Do whatever you can to make their "careers" shitty.

Let them know that they are scumbags.

Let them know the we know they are controlled and bought and paid for by the big money interests.

Shame them.

Shame them.

No violence.

Shame them.

Let's start with McCain - the sell out.

Shame on him!

Future Biobot Serf Here

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a forgone conclusion. The momentum is out of control. Sadly, I'll just quietly wait for the day when I'm required to be chipped or declared an antisocial with criminal intentions.

Easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill the people proposing and voting for this bill.
Problem solved.

Dialog

[the eric conspiracy]

NZ - I don't like this
US - sorry
NZ - won't
US - but you must
NZ - get stuffed
US - ok but don't call us when China comes to your door
NZ - oh all right

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

NZ is not worried about China. China is a better neighbor to us here in NZ than the USA. NZ does far more trade with China than the USA. Kiwi's general opinion of China & the Chinese is higher than the general opinion of USA & Americans. For obvious reasons, I might add.

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

I have just returned from NZ and China is already at the door. The place is packed with Chinese tourists. They can just buy New Zealand and run it as a theme park for their own use. Kiwis are even more laid back than Australians and will do nothing to about being spied on by the GCSB.

Re:Dialog

[brit74]

Is there any evidence that this is being done because of US pressure? I can imagine a number of other scenarios: New Zealand's government decided on it's own to do this (which is worrying for the sustainability of democracies in general), or maybe the US acted as a role-model but didn't actually pressure anyone. I can't help but wonder if your comment was inspired by the fact that it's in-vogue to blame the US for everything bad that happens -- and I'm not defending the US, merely questioning the pile-on behavior (i.e. if you do something wrong, we'll add on a few other things that you probably aren't guilty of, but we'll blame you for anyway), and meanwhile giving cover to New Zealand's government by pretending that they they aren't responsible or guilty for their own bad behavior. I'm sure New Zealand's politicians are happy that you're deflecting blame.

Re:Dialog

[shutdown -p now]

This has already happened, except it ended up differently from how you envision it. Specifically:

NZ - I don't like this
FR - fuck off
US - sorry, but we need the passage rights anyway
NZ - you guys are both dicks, go away
US - but you must!
NZ - get stuffed
US - ok but don't call us when China comes to your door
NZ - zomg we're so scared

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Kiwis realise that the "GCSB" consists of four blokes in an office in Wellington, an aging collie dog, and a 1980s era tape recorder.

Basically, the NZ 'intelligence' services are so woefully inept that the implementation of this legislation means nothing. This, coupled with the acceptance that all the political parties in NZ are also inept and completely lacking in any intelligence themselves, means that not only will Kiwis do nothing, but nothing will actually change either way.

Life will go on in exactly the same fashion as it always has.

Re:Dialog

[viperidaenz]

I assume by "They can just buy New Zealand" you really mean "They are currently buying New Zealand".

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

The security relationship between NZ and the US (and between Australia and the US) is so close that it is beyond the point where "pressure from the US" is even relevant. The security agencies of NZ and the US are so closely knit that NZ shouldn't be regarded as an independent state (at least on matters of security policy). No pressure needs to be applied, it is simply a "harmonization" of the cooperative security policy between the US and NZ, and an oversight that this wasn't done already years ago.

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

the current political climate in NZ is very 'right-wing' (by which I mean libertarian/capitalist with economics policy you could call laissez faire) although by most measures still 'left-of' what many US residents would consider the 'right'. the current prime minister left a position on the US federal reserve, to work for a bank, prior to becoming the prime minister.

to answer your question, there is a _lot_ of evidence this was 101% because of US pressure. the director of the CIA even came on a privately-chartered plane for off-the-record discussions we still know nothing about.. all we have the the flight plan and photos of him stepping off the plane...

Re:Dialog

[Guppy06]

China is a better neighbor to us here in NZ than the USA

For the Kiwis, it's not "US or China," it's "US or Fiji" or even "US or France." Most of the South Pacific (i.e. New Zealand's neighborhood) isn't a very fun place to live, and the folks in Wellington would like to keep that from happening to their own (surprisingly expansive) corner of it.

The Chinese really don't care who's in power in any particular non-Sinosphere country (if anybody) so long as they have buyers. In contrast, the US (and Australia and France and...) has actual people and territory at stake in the region and have a vested interest in things like local coups, fishing rights, pollution, high-seas piracy, etc.

In that respect, the US government has been relatively consistent (for better or for worse) and has helped to establish order (for better or for worse) in the region. In that respect, the US is at least a known evil, and isn't the one currently trying to "test" nuclear weapons in American Samoa.

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly the French are pretty well loathed in NZ.

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Just the politicians.

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

In other-words, they'll just outsource the spying to the USA.

Re:Dialog

[countach]

How has the US helped establish order since helping to win WWII ?

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like it took all of 15 minutes for folks on slashdot to blame this decision by members of the NZ government on the US. And unless parent is a speed-reader, that's a good bit less time than required to read TFA.

On the bright side, 15 minutes is longer than I had expected.

Re:Dialog

[Kalriath]

Who will in turn outsource their own spying back.

Re:Dialog

[amiga3D]

Interesting that Murder basically went unpunished even though it was openly admitted to. Bizarre. Blowing up a ship in a foreign harbor used to be considered an act of war.

Re:Dialog

[amiga3D]

Somebody has to listen in to all those boring phone calls.

Re:Dialog

[amiga3D]

That shouldn't cost much.

Re:Dialog

[AHuxley]

Re: Is there any evidence that this is being done because of US pressure?
The US does not pressure, it allows better trade deals and more international standing if you are "good".
The NZ SAS also get to play with quality toys and generations of NZ spies felt happy that no Soviet agent was safe in NZ.
Re: The "blame the US for everything bad that happens" - Moscow and Washington have swapped out so many govs and protected a lot of bad groups over so many years.
The NSA "news" has been around since the 1970's but with Snowden you have one more layer exposed to the press.
So think of it more as 40-30 years of investigative journalism vs a pile-on behaviour.
Re New Zealand's government decided on it's "own" to do what?
What was considered around the 'Signals Intelligence Authorities' in 1946?
The UKUSA intelligence treaty? Shall we say done with the agreement, letter signed and memoranda by ~1953?
GCSB got the diplomatic telegrams, telephone satellite communications from France, Japan and the Philippines... along with the South Pacific island states.
NZ got Fiji, Vietnam, Laos, 1980's South Africa and Argentinean naval communications.
ie 2nd party status is like a drug to NZ and if they have to spy on their own, so be it.
NZ had always played its part so well and was rewarded with huge upgrades ~satellite receiving stations.
Recall Rainbow Warrior? NZ asked for a lot of info from France via the US and Australia wrt to Paris telephone numbers.
Think NZ got much help back ?
Say a citizen in NZ protests, asks questions, uncovers corruption, reports on NZ help with extraordinary rendition:
Will have the same legal standing as staff from France, Japan, Philippines, the 1980's South Africa and Argentinean military?
So if your writing a tell all book about NZ role in extraordinary rendition, dont do searches from your home computer ;)

Re:Dialog

[mjwx]

NZ - I don't like this
US - sorry
NZ - won't
US - but you must
NZ - get stuffed
US - ok but don't call us when China comes to your door
NZ - oh all right

Erm, UnZud tore up the ANZUS treaty years ago (ANZUS = Australia, New Zealand, United States mutual defence pact). They haven't relied on US military support in decades.

Really it's just the AnUS treaty now.

Re: Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

this is not even close to being true. our intelligence services are small, but not incompetent

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to the US.

Re:Dialog

[Guppy06]

How has the US helped establish order since helping to win WWII ?

You seem to be assuming that "establishing order" is limited to actively killing people and breaking things. Try thinking less "Pentagon" and more "Foggy Bottom."

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any evidence that this is being done because of US pressure?

Anybody who claims any government is doing it as a result of US Pressure is full of shit- they're just using that excuse in an attempt to avoid the political fallout.

Re:Dialog

[the eric conspiracy]

Then what's this about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Washington_Declaration

Re:Dialog

[the eric conspiracy]

Well, you can start by looking up the post war history of Japan.

Re:Dialog

[Anonymous Coward]

Let them buy back detroit first.... before the chinese do, and actually make something nice of the place :P

Game On...

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like this Neo-Fascism is digging its heels in.

This should end well.

I guess they will call it...

[Anonymous Coward]

The eye of Sauron

Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not fool ourselves. In no sense of the word are these two nations 'real'. They are facilities that serve the purposes of the UK and its allies. The Yanks, for instance, are currently bombing the hell out of natural Australian resources you sheeple are told are priceless assets of our planet. Priceless, unless the US armed forces need to practice for nuclear war against Iran, that is.

These two land masses are so mineral rich, they should both be sustaining much bigger populations by now. Look at how the population of the USA grew, for example. But natural Human development is impossible in New Zealand and Australia. It doesn't suit the purposes of those that really control the territory.

Australia in particular should have been another Brazil at least. The economic and social advantage Australia has over Brazil is extraordinary. But Brazil is at 200 million people, and Australia is just over ONE TENTH of that.

My point is that the people of both places are monitored and controlled to ensure no-one arises to power who seriously thinks either should be truly independent, and enjoy a future like that of other nations. Military installations litter both nations- installations designed to ensure the UK and USA can destroy the planet with their nukes, should they so wish.

At least NZ avoids the social engineering experiments carried out in its much larger neighbour. The Kim Dotcom scandal came as a nasty surprise, since most people in NZ work hard to actually believe the illusion of independence (laughably, NZ once 'banned' visits by vessels carrying nuclear weapons- a hilariously naive concept but one the powers-that-be were prepared to allow the population to think was true).

Like I said, the security services in NZ are there to prevent a people's takeover of the land they already think they own. New Zealanders can vote all they like,so long as voting is unable to change anything. Should a person arise who wants to challenge/change the system, the system wants to know before the threat has a chance to develop to a dangerous level. Democracy means the right to passively empower your masters, and nothing else.

No-one plays this game dirtier than Britain. It is just that Britain puts such a 'civilised' face on things, providing you do not dare look beneath the surface. The Kim Dotcom fiasco was a classic example of why we say the US has the muscle but the UK has the brains. Just look at how Tony Blair's puppet set the standard for Internet repression across the globe with his announcements today.

You live in Canada, Australia, NZ, or many other 'ex'-colonies, and the Brit authorities will continue to spy on you for the same reasons this has been true since the colonies were first established. Only America was allowed to 'break away' and only then to create a 'fresh start' Britain Mark II. It is hilarious to consider that Yanks still believe they had a choice to NOT participate in WW1 or WW2.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[interval1066]

The Yanks, for instance, are currently bombing the hell out of natural Australian resources...

Uh, four inert bombs on a small section of the GBR is "bombing the hell out of your natural resources"? After listening to Aussie lesbians drone on and on about how horrible the US is at a party once in Tokyo its no surprise to me that some subjects of the common wealth tend to over-blow anything that has to do with the US. Especially when its bad, of course. I'm not saying the jettison was a great idea, but COME ON.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[murdocj]

Cut to shot of black helicopters...

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[Livius]

Only America was allowed to 'break away'

And now it's enslaved by corporations.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[viperidaenz]

What the fuck are you blabbering about? New Zealand is under the monarchy of Queen Elizabeth II.
Every member of the armed forces swear allegiance to the Queen, not the government or the citizens of New Zealand.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[Anonymous Coward]

That is incorrect, it was a life fire exercise. Two of them were "inert" (I'm not sure what that means, possibly dummy bombs, possibly live bombs but with no detonator). But two of them are live rounds, but not armed.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[viperidaenz]

That bomb drop thing was a case of "drop them somewhere or the plane will crash and explode when it lands".

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you and your pro human infestation agenda.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[black3d]

Two were concrete-filled dummy bombs, the other two had explosives but no detonator. But, this doesn't equate to "the US bombing the hell out of Australian natural resources". It's a joint military practice exercise where some inactive munitions were dumped in the greater area of the national park known as the "Great Barrier Reef". They're also likely to be recovered - the ones with explosives in, at the very least. Also, OP appears to be mostly crazy.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[AK Marc]

laughably, NZ once 'banned' visits by vessels carrying nuclear weapons- a hilariously naive concept but one the powers-that-be were prepared to allow the population to think was true

And what US military ship has docked at NZ since? The US even claimed to go so far as to have no presence in NZ (so said an old newspaper article), despite a current US military base in Christchurch as a jumping off point for US Antarctic operations.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[stenvar]

My point is that the people of both places are monitored and controlled to ensure no-one arises to power who seriously thinks either should be truly independent,

Controlled how? With America's secret mind control rays? Get real.

NZ and Australia are cozy with the US for one simple reason: it's economically beneficial. If NZ or Australia would like to be "truly independent", they could choose to become like North Korea. But if they want to take advantage of the global economic and political system that exists now, you need to play by its rules, and those rules were largely set by the US. They were set by the US because it filled the vacuum that European and Asian nations left when they self-destructed and their global systems (imperialism, colonialism, military domination, nationalism, closed borders) collapsed.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[Kalriath]

Which is fine, because even most Americans admit the current US system seems to be doing a spectacular job of collapsing as well.

Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations

[stenvar]

Fortunately, it's not what people believe that matters, but what's actually happening.

And who is going to challenge the current system? And are you really so naive to think that voters would go for any change? Why should they?

Totalitarianism is taking over the world.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is becoming a real concern for so called "free societies" all over the world. The question is what can we actually do about it before it's too late?

Obviously most people just don't give a damn.

Possibly the only way these plans for total surveillance will ever been overturned and removed will be when they have been put in place and then been compromised.

I honestly find it remarkable that in this digital age so many people are apathetic to this kind of thing.

Don't be man - YOU didn't do it... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

These folks in governments doing this are - personally? I feel/think they DO go in with "the right reasons" & all that, but the ONLY problem?? The old adage of "Absolute Power Corrupting Absolutely": That's all. I mean, for instance, how often do you hear about things where Feds get caught spying on ex-wives/girlfriends & such??? It does happen. That's the problem & an "example thereof". They're JUST MEN, mortal men, subject to the same weaknesses &/or stupidities ANY OF US CAN POTENTIALLY BE (myself included - I honestly can tell you that I would NOT want access to such abilities as they are gaining, I really wouldn't, because give me the "right" (wrong actually per the spying bit above) circumstances & pressures, I could be just as susceptible. Moreso in my "younger days" than now though, there's no question of that - you DO "wise up" & "grow up" (lol, @ least SOME hopefully) usually, with age - it's called maturity - at least in an example like the one I threw out above. However, ANYONE can get "bent outta shape" & "turn to the dark side", or wasn't using the IRS to target political opponents an example of that, albeit on other grounds than online stuff... shit like it, does happen, period. The problem is again putting a match in the hands of someone living inside a gasoline can basically. What bugged me MOST (beyond the IRS example)? This: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy those people have rights to protest (especially vs. what they felt was "the man"/1%'ers bullshit) - the results? Bogus imo, totally bogus & yes, an ABUSE of power. That's my point here. That shit, happens. Especially as MegaDeth put it in the tune "Symphony of Destruction" with the 1st lyric "You take a mortal man, & put him in control..."

APK

P.S.=> Man - it's been a "StRanGe" summer with all of this stuff FINALLY "coming out" but, imo @ least? It's been going on more & more since the telecommunications industry "hopped in bed" with the government around 1947 onwards, & only increasing as tech met the challenges faced by GREATER & finer-grained amounts of it needed to be done, along with volume... I honestly don't think the folks doing it realize how much it OFFENDS their constituencies (or they don't care, take your pick) to know that Big Brother TRULY IS, watching you (or could)... Still - I suppose ALL OF THIS IS NECESSARY (part of the 'growing pains' of humanity as a species I guess)...

...apk

You're NOT going to be "chipped"... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

The TECH IS BETTER THAN THAT by far: RFID Ink: http://www.informationweek.com/invisible-rfid-ink-safe-for-cattle-and-p/196802844 and this: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q=Holographic+tatoos&oq=Holographic+tatoos&gs_l=serp.12..0i22i10i30.1987.7651.1.8892.18.16.0.2.2.0.190.1509.12j4.16.0....0...1c.1.22.serp..0.18.1528.TBOPwp10HKg&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=ed130d34d083288c&biw=1600&bih=896 (Holographic Tattoos) - that, if anything, IS how THAT part of prophecy (ala "the Number of the Beast") will be implemented... mark my words.

* What will the 'tatoo' be? A UPC SYMBOL & this is where it gets REALLY INTERESTING on that account -> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=UPC+666

(Yes, I've worked with UPC codes in the past in industrial environs programming around them in my past circa 1999-2001 & IMMEDIATELY NOTED what those will show you... scared the hell out of me, due to its potentials...)

The UPC won't be like you see on products (incredible tracking & history/inventory power) - it'll be MORE like something you ALREADY have (your drivers license) & the "stacked" variety of them (same base design though)... your eye doesn't even HAVE to see it (not visible spectrum stuff) - but, a laser scanner can.

APK

P.S.=> Scary world folks... apk

Re:You're NOT going to be "chipped"... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

What a blithering idiot. I could have guessed that someone with your intellectual ineptitude might have a bunch of absolutely fucking nothing to say on the topic.

A conspiracy theorist too, I see. Did you parents drop you on your head repeatedly as a baby then?

Don't forget to bold every sentence you think important, lest we miss your earth-shaking revelations.

It's the right thing to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Laws that restrict what you can/can't do to people in terms of their citizenship are evil. The US outlawed them some time ago (in the 14th Amendment), and the more other countries follow suit the better.

If it's legal to spy on people in Location A, then it's legal to spy on them no matter who they are. Whether they're a Chinese spy or an American spy or the Prime Minister of New Zealand should make no difference - all that matters is that they're in Location A.

Apologies

[Hairy1]

As a New Zealand Citizen I would like to offer my deep heartfelt apologies to every other country of the world for expanding the powers of our secret police and destroying and semblance of privacy in New Zealand. I offer these apologies as this is not who we are as a society. Our Government is not representing the will of it's citizens, as was indicated in a recent poll which indicated that a vast majority of New Zealanders did not support the legislation. It is legislation being put in place to wipe out the balance of power; to enable tyranny in our country. They cannot permit people to stand up to them as Kim Dotcom did. This is not the example I want to make to the world. We pride ourselves on our integrity and independence. This legislation is submission to power, it is a disgrace and a treason against the national interest.

Re:Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, the media seem far more concerned with sporting events and royal babies, and the population gets waaaay more fired up when someone accidently confuses New Zealand with Australia (http://guardianlv.com/2013/07/severe-earthquake-strikes-australia/#comments). Our unenlightened and/or misinformed general public will probably quietly ignore the loss of privacy and growing powers of our laws and security services until the relative freedoms we have had are all but gone. They deserve to be more strongly considered and debated as there is likely some merit contained within them, in spirit at least.

Things concerning our national security and the new laws being put into place don't impact everyday New Zealanders' lives enough just yet, and things like general economic recovery and dealing with (and paying for) the Christchurch earthquake recovery are put first and foremost on the national agenda... well, almost. Don't forget that New Zealand parliament sat under urgency one week after the major earthquake to quickly and quietly sign copyright treaties (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/internet-file-sharing-bill-under-urgency-ck-90750) that might give us favour in future for free-trade agreements.

Slowly and surely our rights are disappearing as the general public (as was mentioned in comments above) basically dismiss various New Zealand Governments as benign, harmless, well-meaning but generally blundering, etc. I'm sure we all hope we won't be beaten with these sticks now and in the future - but it appears to me that we are already (eg. pretty much anything related to Kim Dotcom) or soon will be.

Apathy reigns supreme.

Re:Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

another kiwi here. hailing as anonymous coward, while its still legal to do so. so long freedom, and thanks for all the fish.

Re:Apologies

[Maelwryth]

(Also as a New Zealand citizen) I would like to add an apology for the rule of law going to hell here. The GCSB was caught out spying illegally on NZ citizens. Nobody was charged, no-one was even fired. We have become a country for the rich and by the rich, subject to foriegn powers. Our property is being sold out from underneath us, our laws have become mutable. There is little responsibilty in government, and even less in the corporate sector.

Re:Apologies

[L4t3r4lu5]

If you really don't support the legislation, call for a vote of no confidence or referendum. You have a similar parliamentary system to England, right?

You can literally throw out your current government, if you wish.

Re:Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because NZ voters, like voters everywhere else, are like spoiled little children that want the benefits of US friendship without the obligations that come along with it. They want their leaders to take a North Korea-like "f*ck you" attitude, while at the same time still having visa-free travel and easy shipping to most of the Western world.

Why thanks you, Oh great USA, for allowing us mere non US citizens visa-free travel and easy shipping "to most of the western world". You are so generous to share with us low borns the world, yours by birthright, oh great, powerful and wise US. People of the non US bow before your benevolence.

Re:Apologies

[FriendlyLurker]

We have become a country for the rich and by the rich, subject to foriegn powers. Our property is being sold out from underneath us, our laws have become mutable. There is little responsibilty in government, and even less in the corporate sector.

Well, seriously, you New Zealanders did vote for this (like every other country facing this same shit). Face the music or change it at the next election. Of course sheeple will just continue to vote for whoever the rich tell us to vote for (via their mass media channels).

Re:Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Sardaukar86, posting anon as I've modded many truthful Kiwis up in this discussion.

As another Kiwi voice let me say that Maelwryth is spot-on. This is so far from the genuine nature of New Zealanders it makes me want to weep.

Re:Apologies

[kheldan]

No, you have our apologies, for being a world power that is, through it's actions and poor choices, setting a bad example for the other nations of the world. I always believed that the United States stood for freedom, democracy, and a high overall standard for how it's citizens (and would-be citizens, for that matter) are treated with regards to their basic human rights. As it turns out that United States never existed, it was just a fanciful dream (read as: "A pack of lies") that we were encouraged to believe in. I'm afraid that there are dark times ahead for the Western world, and a desperate fight to restore the balance here and in many first-world countries. I would hope to live long enough to see and end to the sort of fascism that is brewing here, but now being far too cynical, I will settle for hoping that I don't live long enough to see my door kicked in in the middle of the night, a black bag shoved over my head, and my life ending in some windowless cell in an American gulag.

Re:Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

If you really don't support the legislation, call for a vote of no confidence or referendum.

Not one single referendum in New Zealand's history has been acted upon, or declared binding. They are simply expensive opinion polls over here...

Re:Apologies

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever met anyone who's ever been within 1000 miles of New Zealand? 'Cuz if not, you might want to just keep your moral judgements to yourself.

Brown nose

[dinther]

Our prime minister John Key is so far up Obama's ass, you can barely see his shoulders. This whole thing is driven by the USA administration.

Re:Brown nose

[TheGratefulNet]

you are wrong.

US or not the US; each country WANTS to spy on its people.

the genie is out of the bottle and there's nothing that can be done (short of world wide revolution, which is pretty unlikely) to put it back.

don't blame any one country. this is about human nature and the concept that 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

if you think your country (name any one) isn't in posession or in want of this kind of spying power, you're sadly mistaken.

typical humans: they don't bother asking 'should we?' when a new technology comes around; they just say 'how fast can we adopt this?'.

a sad time for the human race. world-wide. its never been about country X or Y. its about human nature and how humans can't seem to govern themselves without abusing their power.

Warning: off topic.

[viperidaenz]

NZ Maori got some cell phone spectrum for a bargain price from the Treaty. They made a network provider called 2degrees using this discounted spectrum, which is now more foreign owned than Telecom.

Re:Warning: off topic.

[SplashMyBandit]

Ka pai. Thank goodness most Treaty settlements made these days are signed under "full and final" terms.

New Zealand is always in the forefront

[Taco Cowboy]

From time immemorial nation-states have always been spying on their own citizens.

New Zealand, being one of the most progressive nations on Earth, is again taking the lead in making this ancient practice LEGAL.

As this has come to pass, wonder what New Zealand will do next ...

Re:New Zealand is always in the forefront

[Chickenlips]

There used to be practical limits to a government spying on its citizens (unless we are talking about a police state, where nothing was above being opened without a reason). The targeted spying of postage communications has always existed. However, a normal citizen could reasonably expect their mail to be delivered unopened, unread and unarchived for future reference. It's possible modern technology has rendered even this doable by a determined spy agency, but it would still be less practical than electronic siphoning.

Re:New Zealand is always in the forefront

[daem0n1x]

They need to do that, because of rampant terrorism and crime. Everybody knows New Zealand is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. If the government is not allowed to spy on their citizens, how can they make the country one of the most peaceful and developed in the world?

Re: New Zealand is always in the forefront

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry but that statement is idiotic. The legalization of Gay Marriage was to allow gay people to get married if they choose too. Not to sell more "gay pr0n"

Re: New Zealand is always in the forefront

[crutchy]

i feel so sorry for you

Re: New Zealand is always in the forefront

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of shit. Nice try though.

Re: New Zealand is always in the forefront

[daem0n1x]

Whoooooooosh!

Re:Revoluton. I'm calling for a peaceful revolutio

[Anonymous Coward]

Burma Shave

I guess it's time we all moved to Iceland

[Coditor]

Is there any warm place that doesn't spy on its citizens?

Re:I guess it's time we all moved to Iceland

[stenvar]

Many of the European nations complaining bitterly about US spying have extensive domestic spying and surveillance programs themselves, and they keep large databases on their citizens. I don't know about the situation in Iceland, and Iceland is a nice place, but I'd not jump to conclusions over it.

What does the legistation do exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

My understanding is the legislation authorises the GCSB to intercept communications for named agencies (Police, Defence and SIS) under a properly obtained warrant. Otherwise the three agencies would need to their own "copy" of the GCSB internally to do exactly the same thing the GCSB is going to be able to do for them. Net result would be exactly the same outcome, with the taxpayer/citizens paying more for the same level of big brother.

This is not blanket monitoring of the citizenship. It's targeted at specific individuals for who a warrant is obtained.

Posting as AC as I can never remember by ./ credentials...

Re:What does the legistation do exactly.

[ctj]

You are correct. This is NOT spying on New Zealanders but allowing the Police, SIS and Defence to use the staff and facilities of GCSB to conduct their warranted work. They have also added in previsions so that if a warrant is granted it needs to be reviewed before the GCSB begins the work. Note the GCSB will seconded there staff to the relevant agency while they do the work.

Big media and now Slashdot over blow.

Re:What does the legistation do exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

The mod point holders clearly don't want facts to get in the way of a good beat up on government. Oh well....

Re:What does the legistation do exactly.

[AHuxley]

Re the greatness and legality of 'Note the GCSB will seconded there staff to the relevant agency while they do the work."
There is one amazing reason my most countries try and keep their foreign, military grade staff well away from any domestic crime operations.
Police talk to the press for fame or cash, police talk to criminals due to cash or blackmail or obscure links that where never uncovered.
Organised crime and embassies may not be able to blackmail or entrap clandestine agency staff but police services very open to long term tracking due to court and basic work habits.
We have seen what it all looks like in the UK with the National Criminal Intelligence Service, Government Telecommunications Advisory Centre. Tasked to go after email, encrypted files by organised crime, cell phone tracking, later voice prints.
Warnings about press contacts in the police and court issues where ignored.
Courts have to be sealed, legal staff for the defence need clearances - you have a spy case setting for a 'big' drug case?
Courts are open, legal staff for the defence go after 'police support staff' about their standing as experts... clearances - you have a spy trail setting for a drug case?
Crime adjusts to cell tracking, voice prints, internet logs, they find better admins or just bait the tracking systems.
Police and their press contacts can out last any anti-corruption squad (~CIB3) efforts and any independent journalists lose funding or just stop reporting.

Re:What does the legistation do exactly.

[AHuxley]

Allowing your foreign intelligence and national critical infrastructure teams to spy on citizens seems like news for nerds :)

Bread and circus

[countach]

The real bread and circus is not the royal baby, it is the war.. the "war on terror". George Orwell was a genius in predicting that a perpetual war would be the excuse to bring in the police state. Even 10 years ago, I thought Orwell's idea of the perpetual war was a bit fantastic. Now it is so on the money, it is scarily prescient.

Not so much prescient...

[dido]

...as self-fulfilling prophecy. The trouble is that the leaders of the world read books like 1984 and Brave New World and see them as instruction manuals rather than warnings.

Re:Not so much prescient...

[amiga3D]

I love.....Big Brother!

Re:Not so much prescient...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not the case at all. Eric Blair wrote 1984 because it was already happening in his time. He was actually hassled by government agents while writing it, forcing him to go into hiding.

Brave New World isn't anything like today, other than everything being geared up to waste and consume more. The book isn't about government control and spying. People accept their roles in the hierarchy thanks to conditioning when they're very young.

Re:Not so much prescient...

[Anonymous Coward]

1984 is the novel people often think of in situations like this, but The Iron Heel by Jack London is far more frightening prophetic, more so than 1984 and it was written over 100 years ago.

Re: Revoluton. I'm calling for a peaceful revoluti

[Anonymous Coward]

lol @ "voting".

just like the printing press obsoleted absolute monarchy, the information age has made centralized government of any kind--especially one ruled by fickle majorities--to be not only obsolete as an organizational structure, but utterly antithetical to human dignity.(centralization requires a large and untenable amount of homogenization, which requires monitoring and punishment of divergent behavior)

Well, well, well

[Anonymous Coward]

So lets see is the chain of command as follows now? So much for the "number 1" place in the world for freedom, then again, Kim Dotcom.
Israel > USA > NZ

Re:Well, well, well

[amiga3D]

What's Israel got to do with it? Are they spying on New Zealand citizens too?

Re:Well, well, well

[Anonymous Coward]

Why, of course Israel is to blame. Don't you know that one of the grandmothers of our PM may have been Jewish?
Our ignorant ancestors didn't know about Israel and blamed all their misfortunes on dark forces of nature, but in our enlightened century we know better. It is (whatever "it" might be) all the fault of them Jews!

Re:Well, well, well

[amiga3D]

Heh. Such a tiny place to have such a massive impact.

Storm in Teacup

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary seems to indicate that the Labour and Green parties (who oppose the bill) are holier than thou and busy fighting for our rights.
Unfortunately the majority of the 'illegal' spying occured whilst the Labour government were in power and while Sir Bruce Ferguson (appointed by Labour) was in charge of the GCSB. Pot meet kettle.
On top of that, all this legislation is really about is the government wanting the NZSIS and the NZ Police (both of whom have legal authority to spy on NZ citizens - with a warrant) access to the tools/personnel that the GCSB has.

The bill is a storm in a teacup.

Re:Storm in Teacup

[ctj]

Totally agree with you on this. Would mod if I had points

Re:Storm in Teacup

[Anonymous Coward]

Wise words. Sardaukar86 posting anon for reasons of moderation. As a Kiwi I agree with you 100%.

In the US they talk about sockpuppet R and sockpuppet D being operated by the same guy.. well here, we may not be quite so subtle(!) but we've been watching carefully and taking notes..

Pretty much the same as UK

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is somehow the same thing Cameron the inbred tries to do with the pedo/pron saber rattling right ?

Dog Butt Fuckers

[Anonymous Coward]

NZ Gov is chock-O-block full Dog Butt Fuckers.

Re:You're already "chipped" Mr. 5150

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's already been implemented. While walking, if you're stopped by someone just because they don't like your profile and fail to show any identification papers upon their orders, your shit out of luck, especially if you have an attitude (their favorite term) about what's happening. If there aren't any witnesses, choosing to demean yourself and also ingratiate him is the only out.

Otherwise, he'll try to goad you (the way a budding serial killer gets mad and likes to kill trapped cats that don't like being poked with a stick) into doing something he can pretend to others was craziness and have you arrested as a psycho, a 3 day drugged observation by a mental health facility. You won't be released until you sign papers, giving up your right to own any firearms at any time in your life. A violation will result in imprisonment for a minimum of 7 years. All without a trial. However, it could be worse; he could kill you (Zimmermann style).

Sometimes I wonder if the women and children they hide behind carry anything for protection.

Fucked up

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, completely fucked up. Unfortunately, this sort of shit is going to happen all over the world in so called democracies so long as the major of votes insist on voting on the party they were raised with, much like their choice of religion. It looks like the world over the top two parties are both up arses of the country dictating their policy. The only way this will likely democratically change is if voters dare to vote enmass for currently smaller parties and make reduction of government dictatorship their #1 policy instead of a bunch of dickhead other policies which at the end of the day have very little impact.

WHEEEEE!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I know we sold the colonies some old Enigma machines after WW2 so we could decipher their "secret communications" using the allegedly destroyed Colossi, etc that were transferred from Bletchly Park to GCHQ, but the UK continuing to pull the strings in NZ??? You're out of your tree! We can't even pull strings in Scotland or Wales. Or Brussels for that matter, let alone the US.

Now Tony Blair, well he WAS a nutjob poodle for any US president who wanted a veneer of respectability for their actions. Blair also thought that Iraq and Afghanistan would give him the status that Maggie got after the Falklands. I'd laugh, but after the waste of lives, resources and money on those adventures, I want to cry, and then have him and his cronies doen for treason. He's not been conspicuously successful in his post-premiership Middle-East role either. Unless you count the money he's been coining and his teak tan.

Ahhhgh....

Worlds best practice surveillance

[Turminder Xuss]

Make sure your elected officials get a hold of the Administration 12 Stasi operations manual. No sense re-inventing the wheel.

NZ used to have balls

[Anonymous Coward]

We spent a good part of the 80s saying no to NATO and particularly the US, in order to maintain a nuclear free policy. As in, refusing nuclear powered ships entry to our harbours.
Now this. Absolutely disgraceful.

I think you spoke too soon

[hibji]

At the very least they already collect the metadata for all postage communications.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Fighting back

[korbulon]

New Zealand seems as good a place as any to make a stand. The unhalted expansion of the surveillance state reminds me of a malignant tumor: if left untreated it will consume the entire host.

Is there a foundation where donations can be sent to accomplish one of the following goals:

* Raise awareness of the situation among the NZ populace with a no-holds-barred propaganda campaign
* Shame the politicians involved
* Fund the relevant opposition parties

Let NZ be the high water mark.

Protesting this bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi /.

I'd like to request you edit the post to include that there's going to be a nationwide protest this coming saturday 27th, with a coalition of support from political parties, human rights organizations, NZer of the Year Dame Anne Salmond and even Kim Dotcom.

A bit more publicity wouldn't hurt though :)
https://www.facebook.com/events/1397960757085992/

Don't all governments do this

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been going on since ancient times

Big Brother I.E N.Z. GOVT

[Anonymous Coward]

Well is is just how Kim.com said it be the N.Z. govt can-not get there nose of of the south end of the U.S. cowards.. #R/S JPB1960#

Dropping bombs

[Anonymous Coward]

Come spy on me while I'm having a pooh, especially at work while I pick my nose xD

Dodgy dealings

[Anonymous Coward]

For an insightful overview of the dodgy dealings that have been going on between the NZ PM, John Key, and the USA, check the Campbell Live report here:
http://www.3news.co.nz/Dissecting-the-GCSB-bill/tabid/367/articleID/304523/Default.aspx?ref=vid_2012-11-22

NZ told the USA to bugger off with their nuclear warships in the eighties - at a serious price. I hope we have the balls to do something similar this time.

You're "projecting"... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Your inadequacies & childhood issues: Take a listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdY5ghcnaw0 Advice: Lay off on the profanity usage - Doing that only shows us YOUR "level of intelligence" (low brow).

* I only operate on observations & fact (things I actually saw too, not just heard, and if you look? So can anyone else - you just have to have eyes to see along with a bit of deductive skills, & the links I put up do the rest!).

APK

P.S.=> However - this is 1 I truly DO hope I am absolutely WRONG on, since it is scary imo... apk

Policy issue? WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever hear of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? I would guess that NZ is a signatory country as well as the rest of the nations caught red-handed. The rights spelled out in the BoR are endowed to all humans by their creator.

Don't you dare limit my outrage to the US shitting on its Constitution. Government spying to this massive extent is a reckless and aggressive act against all humanity. that can only lead to tyranny.

Re:Policy issue? WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever hear of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? I would guess that NZ is a signatory country as well as the rest of the nations caught red-handed.

UDHR is so vague that it doesn't have much legal force. Article 12 says "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence". Well, gosh, this sort of spying isn't arbitrary. So there.

The rights spelled out in the BoR are endowed to all humans by their creator.

You're a very confused man. That's the preamble to declaration of independence, and it doesn't list privacy as one of those rights. Furthermore, the Bill of Rights doesn't really grant rights to anyone, it imposes specific limitations on the rights of the federal government, as a clarification of the Constitution. Under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the US military certainly doesn't have to use US legal procedure outside the US.

Furthermore, no other government imposes such a restriction on itself, so why should the US?

My "main papers"? Already "tagged"

[Anonymous Coward]

#1 - My passport has an RFID identifier & it IS my main ID, internationally. So, in essence, I am already a chipped & tagged RFID tracked animal already. #2 - I've had happen what you speak of (& won a large monetary award for it as far back as 1991), minus the psychiatric stuff you noted though. So - yes, the "law" does DO what you say it does, almost to a letter (only thing is, within 24 hrs. you can start doing the same to them with a good motivated attorney) but when they're wrong? They're wrong, and you can take them to not just courts, but a jury trial as I did, and you will win. The worst thing you can do with police, is resist (even though they beat the hell out of you, and they did with me with their night-sticks, leaving me with a scar over my eye to this very day in fact but worse, an innate fear of them doing it again to this very day though). In any event? I took the winnings & educated myself. It allowed me to start a pretty good 2++ decades long Comp. Sci. based career which was the stepping stone into doing what I am currently into (which took far more coin to get into than that did, which was the 'stepping stone' for it really but I did and still do, enjoy computer programming -> http://start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5851:apk-hosts-file-engine-64bit-version&catid=26:64bit-security-software&Itemid=74 )- so, it all works out in the end IF you're lucky & work hard (which isn't that bad if you like what you're doing & that IS the "name of the game" imo as far as livelyhood, since it makes all the difference).

APK

P.S.=> Where I live, unfortunately, has degraded into such a warzone - case in point/example: I took a walk yesterday, heard a "pop" like a lightbulb being smashed. Was a shooting, not even 1.5 blocks from my home (where thank goodness I am up on the highest point in my city & the violent lunatics below don't come up on (gravity protects I guess along with luck)). It was the 2nd one in the SAME LOCATION in a week... apk

"Circuses", eh?

[Pf0tzenpfritz]

"PANEM ET CIRCENSES!" (Bread and games) BARBARII STVPIDI...

Thomas Drake, William Binney, Eric Snowden

[Anonymous Coward]

They're "conspiracy theory nuts" too (former NSA employees).

"We've been doing it illegally..."

[intermodal]

...so we're just going to legalize it."

People elected these politicians. And they will probably re-elect them. Stupid people.

NO WAY

[Anonymous Coward]

i understand the need for this, HOWEVER this is a huge invasion to our privacy and i believe this will make it that much easier to control us. With todays influence from the media, brainwashing is certainly possible. This is getting way out of hand. I am fully against this.

Democray is a Sham

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who thinks that there is such a concept as democracy is deluded. Politicians have always looked after themselves as a number one priority and looked after their rich and powerful masters as a number two priority. Maybe the other way round, I don't know. The people come a dismal last if they rate a mention at all. None of this comes as a surprise to me.

How ironic that the Capture code I have to type in is "Arrogant"