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New Zealand Government About To Legalize Spying On NZ Citizens

Posted by Unknown on from the if-you-have-nothing-to-hide dept.

Flere Imsaho writes "After admitting they have illegally spied on NZ citizens or residents 88 times (PDF) since 2003, the government, in a stunning example of arse covering, is about to grant the GCSB the right to intercept the communications of New Zealanders in its role as the national cyber security agency, rather than examine the role the GCSB should play and then look at the laws. There has been strong criticism from many avenues. The bill is being opposed by Labor and the Greens, but it looks like National now have the numbers to get this passed. Of course, the front page story is all about the royal baby, with this huge erosion of privacy relegated to a small article near the bottom of the front page. Three cheers, the monarchy is secure, never mind the rights of the people. More bread and circuses anyone?"

41 of 216 comments (clear)

  1. Is Sauron in the gov there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    --A concerned Hobbit.

    1. Re:Is Sauron in the gov there? by mysidia · · Score: 2

      Something a bit darker than Sauron; unfortunately... no hobbit can take down this evil with just a ring and the fires of hell....

    2. Re:Is Sauron in the gov there? by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Sorry, those are just the front men.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    3. Re:Is Sauron in the gov there? by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Is Sauron in the gov there?"

      Sauron has been the US president for some time. "One Spy-Ring to rule them all", etc, etc.

      I think John Key is better compared with Gríma Wormtongue. Which would make David Cameron Saruman.

  2. Still illegal under NZ Constitution by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or the US.

      Well, yes, but we're insane, so we don't count.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    2. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by iggymanz · · Score: 3, Informative

      sad news for you, the UK does not have a constitution; anything that Parliament makes law goes

    3. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by master5o1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What NZ Constitution are you talking about?

      --
      signature is pants
    4. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by blackraven14250 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not having a written constitution is effectively not having a constitution.

    5. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      New Zealand has constitutional documents (The Treaty of Waitangi, The New Zealand Bill Of Rights Act etc) just not a single Constitution because we copied England's system.
      HAVING a constitution would be a good idea, then we could entrench things like protection from being spied on, environmental protection (including not mining conservation land) etc... Although we'd probably need to do something to stop the people like the current government from editing it under """urgency""".

    6. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, no, no - the Queen has her morning constitution pretty regulalry, then wipes with Royal constitution paper!

      The Constitution of the United Kingdom is the set of laws and principles under which the United Kingdom is governed.[1]

      Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    7. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      I'm fairly certain the Barons would disagree with you, as they did at Hastings, sir.

      But, technically, it is a series of documents, and then there is the EU constitution, which itself is more of a treaty, somewhat like how Canada had the BNA (British North American Act, in the British Parliament) until 1967.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    8. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Someday we'll realize all these divisions and patriotism only help to keep us occupied and divided instead of trying to find a way to avoid the corruption of those with power/money.

      We're all humans after all, no matter what religion, ideology or place of birth.

      --
      "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
    9. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by JustOK · · Score: 2

      ...until 1982

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    10. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either."

      Why are you excluding the United States? The US government has been doing its own astounding circumventions of our Constitution as well.

      Take just for one very relevant example: the illegal, retroactive immunity granted telcos for illegally allowing the government to listen in on your communications.

      ---
      "No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." -- U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Sec. 9.

    11. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by stenvar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either.

      Their constitutions/laws generally have fewer restrictions than US laws, and NSA-like spying has been commonplace in Europe.

      http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/how_they_do_it/2006/02/wiretapping_europeanstyle.html

      The outrage in the US is over the fact that the NSA and the president are trying to get around the letter and intent of the Constitution and the law. In many other countries, it's more a policy issue, not a question of legality.

    12. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by dccase · · Score: 2

      Someday we'll realize all these divisions and patriotism only help to keep us occupied and divided

      You can pry the Designated Hitter rule out of my cold dead hands.

    13. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      That's the problem. We're all human. Insane by birth.

    14. Re:Still illegal under NZ Constitution by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      You still have the right to breath. I think there's a tax coming for that though.

  3. Ashamed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been a Kiwi all my life and have had some bad moments, and some moments when I'm damn proud to be one.

    This however, is the first time I'm outright ashamed.

    1. Re:Ashamed by jemmyw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've been a Kiwi for about 18 months (do you get to adopt the nomenclature? Alright NZ citizen). You take the ups with the downs, we just legalised gay marriage, an up in my opinion. This is a down. I don't think many here care about this issue. On the up side though I think most people view our security service as somewhat inept blunders.

  4. Dialog by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

    NZ - I don't like this
    US - sorry
    NZ - won't
    US - but you must
    NZ - get stuffed
    US - ok but don't call us when China comes to your door
    NZ - oh all right

    1. Re:Dialog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      NZ is not worried about China. China is a better neighbor to us here in NZ than the USA. NZ does far more trade with China than the USA. Kiwi's general opinion of China & the Chinese is higher than the general opinion of USA & Americans. For obvious reasons, I might add.

    2. Re:Dialog by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      This has already happened, except it ended up differently from how you envision it. Specifically:

      NZ - I don't like this
      FR - fuck off
      US - sorry, but we need the passage rights anyway
      NZ - you guys are both dicks, go away
      US - but you must!
      NZ - get stuffed
      US - ok but don't call us when China comes to your door
      NZ - zomg we're so scared

    3. Re:Dialog by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      I assume by "They can just buy New Zealand" you really mean "They are currently buying New Zealand".

    4. Re:Dialog by Guppy06 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      China is a better neighbor to us here in NZ than the USA

      For the Kiwis, it's not "US or China," it's "US or Fiji" or even "US or France." Most of the South Pacific (i.e. New Zealand's neighborhood) isn't a very fun place to live, and the folks in Wellington would like to keep that from happening to their own (surprisingly expansive) corner of it.

      The Chinese really don't care who's in power in any particular non-Sinosphere country (if anybody) so long as they have buyers. In contrast, the US (and Australia and France and...) has actual people and territory at stake in the region and have a vested interest in things like local coups, fishing rights, pollution, high-seas piracy, etc.

      In that respect, the US government has been relatively consistent (for better or for worse) and has helped to establish order (for better or for worse) in the region. In that respect, the US is at least a known evil, and isn't the one currently trying to "test" nuclear weapons in American Samoa.

    5. Re:Dialog by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Re: Is there any evidence that this is being done because of US pressure?
      The US does not pressure, it allows better trade deals and more international standing if you are "good".
      The NZ SAS also get to play with quality toys and generations of NZ spies felt happy that no Soviet agent was safe in NZ.
      Re: The "blame the US for everything bad that happens" - Moscow and Washington have swapped out so many govs and protected a lot of bad groups over so many years.
      The NSA "news" has been around since the 1970's but with Snowden you have one more layer exposed to the press.
      So think of it more as 40-30 years of investigative journalism vs a pile-on behaviour.
      Re New Zealand's government decided on it's "own" to do what?
      What was considered around the 'Signals Intelligence Authorities' in 1946?
      The UKUSA intelligence treaty? Shall we say done with the agreement, letter signed and memoranda by ~1953?
      GCSB got the diplomatic telegrams, telephone satellite communications from France, Japan and the Philippines... along with the South Pacific island states.
      NZ got Fiji, Vietnam, Laos, 1980's South Africa and Argentinean naval communications.
      ie 2nd party status is like a drug to NZ and if they have to spy on their own, so be it.
      NZ had always played its part so well and was rewarded with huge upgrades ~satellite receiving stations.
      Recall Rainbow Warrior? NZ asked for a lot of info from France via the US and Australia wrt to Paris telephone numbers.
      Think NZ got much help back ?
      Say a citizen in NZ protests, asks questions, uncovers corruption, reports on NZ help with extraordinary rendition:
      Will have the same legal standing as staff from France, Japan, Philippines, the 1980's South Africa and Argentinean military?
      So if your writing a tell all book about NZ role in extraordinary rendition, dont do searches from your home computer ;)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    6. Re:Dialog by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      How has the US helped establish order since helping to win WWII ?

      You seem to be assuming that "establishing order" is limited to actively killing people and breaking things. Try thinking less "Pentagon" and more "Foggy Bottom."

  5. Re:jesus H christ. by wierd_w · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think I am going to be violently ill.

    It isn't "potential abuse of power", when it is being reported AFTER THE FACT!

    Giving those people MORE power to abuse, after they have already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted with the powers they have already obtained, is beyond incomprehensible!

    Seriously, all NZ has to do is point a few of those major headlines out, and say "No thank you USA. We would be happy to assist you, LEGALLY, in any LEGAL investigation you may have, but the requests you send us must obey OUR soveriegn rights and laws. Since you seem to have a hard time following even your own laws, we can't really honor your requests for additional intelligence at this time, since the requests you keep sending us are clearly illegal and unconsionable."

    But NO! The line of the day? Handwringing, squirming in their chairs like they have super 'roids, sweating, and heatedly whispering among themselves asking each other how they can break the law!

    WTF!

  6. Apologies by Hairy1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a New Zealand Citizen I would like to offer my deep heartfelt apologies to every other country of the world for expanding the powers of our secret police and destroying and semblance of privacy in New Zealand. I offer these apologies as this is not who we are as a society. Our Government is not representing the will of it's citizens, as was indicated in a recent poll which indicated that a vast majority of New Zealanders did not support the legislation. It is legislation being put in place to wipe out the balance of power; to enable tyranny in our country. They cannot permit people to stand up to them as Kim Dotcom did. This is not the example I want to make to the world. We pride ourselves on our integrity and independence. This legislation is submission to power, it is a disgrace and a treason against the national interest.

  7. Warning: off topic. by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

    NZ Maori got some cell phone spectrum for a bargain price from the Treaty. They made a network provider called 2degrees using this discounted spectrum, which is now more foreign owned than Telecom.

  8. New Zealand is always in the forefront by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    From time immemorial nation-states have always been spying on their own citizens.

    New Zealand, being one of the most progressive nations on Earth, is again taking the lead in making this ancient practice LEGAL.

    As this has come to pass, wonder what New Zealand will do next ...

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:New Zealand is always in the forefront by Chickenlips · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There used to be practical limits to a government spying on its citizens (unless we are talking about a police state, where nothing was above being opened without a reason). The targeted spying of postage communications has always existed. However, a normal citizen could reasonably expect their mail to be delivered unopened, unread and unarchived for future reference. It's possible modern technology has rendered even this doable by a determined spy agency, but it would still be less practical than electronic siphoning.

  9. Re:jesus H christ. by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

    They can't deny US request publicly, when the whole Kim Dotcom thing brought it all out. We have the "Official Information Act" that brings these hidden things out to the media, who lodge OIA request constantly in the hopes of finding a scandal.

  10. Re:jesus H christ. by flaming+error · · Score: 3

    "There is very little difference between NZ, Australia, Spain, or United States in the jihaddists' eyes"

    Kind of like there's little difference between putting on a massive stage spectacular at the West End, Broadway, Vegas Strip, or the Aleutian Islands.

  11. Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    laughably, NZ once 'banned' visits by vessels carrying nuclear weapons- a hilariously naive concept but one the powers-that-be were prepared to allow the population to think was true

    And what US military ship has docked at NZ since? The US even claimed to go so far as to have no presence in NZ (so said an old newspaper article), despite a current US military base in Christchurch as a jumping off point for US Antarctic operations.

    --
    Learn to love Alaska
  12. Bread and circus by countach · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The real bread and circus is not the royal baby, it is the war.. the "war on terror". George Orwell was a genius in predicting that a perpetual war would be the excuse to bring in the police state. Even 10 years ago, I thought Orwell's idea of the perpetual war was a bit fantastic. Now it is so on the money, it is scarily prescient.

  13. Not so much prescient... by dido · · Score: 2

    ...as self-fulfilling prophecy. The trouble is that the leaders of the world read books like 1984 and Brave New World and see them as instruction manuals rather than warnings.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  14. Re:Neither NZ or Australia are real nations by Kalriath · · Score: 2

    Which is fine, because even most Americans admit the current US system seems to be doing a spectacular job of collapsing as well.

    --
    For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  15. I think you spoke too soon by hibji · · Score: 3, Informative

    At the very least they already collect the metadata for all postage communications.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

  16. Fighting back by korbulon · · Score: 2

    New Zealand seems as good a place as any to make a stand. The unhalted expansion of the surveillance state reminds me of a malignant tumor: if left untreated it will consume the entire host.

    Is there a foundation where donations can be sent to accomplish one of the following goals:

    * Raise awareness of the situation among the NZ populace with a no-holds-barred propaganda campaign
    * Shame the politicians involved
    * Fund the relevant opposition parties

    Let NZ be the high water mark.