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New Zealand Government About To Legalize Spying On NZ Citizens
Flere Imsaho writes "After admitting they have illegally spied on NZ citizens or residents 88 times (PDF) since 2003, the government, in a stunning example of arse covering, is about to grant the GCSB the right to intercept the communications of New Zealanders in its role as the national cyber security agency, rather than examine the role the GCSB should play and then look at the laws. There has been strong criticism from many avenues. The bill is being opposed by Labor and the Greens, but it looks like National now have the numbers to get this passed. Of course, the front page story is all about the royal baby, with this huge erosion of privacy relegated to a small article near the bottom of the front page. Three cheers, the monarchy is secure, never mind the rights of the people. More bread and circuses anyone?"
--A concerned Hobbit.
But, hey, that doesn't stop the UK, Canada, Britain, or Germany from doing the same thing in violation of their Constitutions, either.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I've been a Kiwi all my life and have had some bad moments, and some moments when I'm damn proud to be one.
This however, is the first time I'm outright ashamed.
Any and all politicians need to be peacefully booted/voted out of office.
Vote them out.
Vote against them.
Vote them out.
Assholes.
If we can't vote them out I call for passive aggressive revolt.
Delay their planes.
Put them in shitty investments.
Sell them shitty clothes.
Do whatever you can to make their "careers" shitty.
Let them know that they are scumbags.
Let them know the we know they are controlled and bought and paid for by the big money interests.
Shame them.
Shame them.
No violence.
Shame them.
Let's start with McCain - the sell out.
Shame on him!
Complaining about the potential abuse of a government's surveillance power is all well and good, but their actual results may well be quite good — they just wouldn't tell us so as not tell the enemy of how to evade future detection.
Now I personally am not at all sure, the potential abuse is a fair price to pay for the actual prevention — maybe, just maybe, loosing a few hundred of fellow citizens per year is better for the rest of the country, than giving the Executive branch the power to suppress opposition. Oh, wait...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
NZ - I don't like this
US - sorry
NZ - won't
US - but you must
NZ - get stuffed
US - ok but don't call us when China comes to your door
NZ - oh all right
Seriously? Can't they just fucking grow a pair, and tell the US to go get stuffed by a 2000lb bull elephant with genital warts?
If you think non-US governments aren't keenly eager to keep tabs on their own citizens, you're a rather large fool.
Protip: The US is broke. We're not going to come liberate the fuck out of you and drop 2500 pound Democracy bombs on you unless you're a nation of dirt farmers. Your politicians are doing this because *they* want to know that you're down with crossdressing midgets crossplaying as women crossplaying as male versions of the cast of Sailor Moon.
I think I am going to be violently ill.
It isn't "potential abuse of power", when it is being reported AFTER THE FACT!
Giving those people MORE power to abuse, after they have already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted with the powers they have already obtained, is beyond incomprehensible!
Seriously, all NZ has to do is point a few of those major headlines out, and say "No thank you USA. We would be happy to assist you, LEGALLY, in any LEGAL investigation you may have, but the requests you send us must obey OUR soveriegn rights and laws. Since you seem to have a hard time following even your own laws, we can't really honor your requests for additional intelligence at this time, since the requests you keep sending us are clearly illegal and unconsionable."
But NO! The line of the day? Handwringing, squirming in their chairs like they have super 'roids, sweating, and heatedly whispering among themselves asking each other how they can break the law!
WTF!
The eye of Sauron
These folks in governments doing this are - personally? I feel/think they DO go in with "the right reasons" & all that, but the ONLY problem?? The old adage of "Absolute Power Corrupting Absolutely": That's all. I mean, for instance, how often do you hear about things where Feds get caught spying on ex-wives/girlfriends & such??? It does happen. That's the problem & an "example thereof". They're JUST MEN, mortal men, subject to the same weaknesses &/or stupidities ANY OF US CAN POTENTIALLY BE (myself included - I honestly can tell you that I would NOT want access to such abilities as they are gaining, I really wouldn't, because give me the "right" (wrong actually per the spying bit above) circumstances & pressures, I could be just as susceptible. Moreso in my "younger days" than now though, there's no question of that - you DO "wise up" & "grow up" (lol, @ least SOME hopefully) usually, with age - it's called maturity - at least in an example like the one I threw out above. However, ANYONE can get "bent outta shape" & "turn to the dark side", or wasn't using the IRS to target political opponents an example of that, albeit on other grounds than online stuff... shit like it, does happen, period. The problem is again putting a match in the hands of someone living inside a gasoline can basically. What bugged me MOST (beyond the IRS example)? This: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy those people have rights to protest (especially vs. what they felt was "the man"/1%'ers bullshit) - the results? Bogus imo, totally bogus & yes, an ABUSE of power. That's my point here. That shit, happens. Especially as MegaDeth put it in the tune "Symphony of Destruction" with the 1st lyric "You take a mortal man, & put him in control..."
APK
P.S.=> Man - it's been a "StRanGe" summer with all of this stuff FINALLY "coming out" but, imo @ least? It's been going on more & more since the telecommunications industry "hopped in bed" with the government around 1947 onwards, & only increasing as tech met the challenges faced by GREATER & finer-grained amounts of it needed to be done, along with volume... I honestly don't think the folks doing it realize how much it OFFENDS their constituencies (or they don't care, take your pick) to know that Big Brother TRULY IS, watching you (or could)... Still - I suppose ALL OF THIS IS NECESSARY (part of the 'growing pains' of humanity as a species I guess)...
...apk
The Yanks, for instance, are currently bombing the hell out of natural Australian resources...
Uh, four inert bombs on a small section of the GBR is "bombing the hell out of your natural resources"? After listening to Aussie lesbians drone on and on about how horrible the US is at a party once in Tokyo its no surprise to me that some subjects of the common wealth tend to over-blow anything that has to do with the US. Especially when its bad, of course. I'm not saying the jettison was a great idea, but COME ON.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
That actual prevention worked well at the Boston Marathon, didn't it? I was dumb founded at the government's efficiency on that one!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
As a New Zealand Citizen I would like to offer my deep heartfelt apologies to every other country of the world for expanding the powers of our secret police and destroying and semblance of privacy in New Zealand. I offer these apologies as this is not who we are as a society. Our Government is not representing the will of it's citizens, as was indicated in a recent poll which indicated that a vast majority of New Zealanders did not support the legislation. It is legislation being put in place to wipe out the balance of power; to enable tyranny in our country. They cannot permit people to stand up to them as Kim Dotcom did. This is not the example I want to make to the world. We pride ourselves on our integrity and independence. This legislation is submission to power, it is a disgrace and a treason against the national interest.
NZ Maori got some cell phone spectrum for a bargain price from the Treaty. They made a network provider called 2degrees using this discounted spectrum, which is now more foreign owned than Telecom.
Cut to shot of black helicopters...
From time immemorial nation-states have always been spying on their own citizens.
New Zealand, being one of the most progressive nations on Earth, is again taking the lead in making this ancient practice LEGAL.
As this has come to pass, wonder what New Zealand will do next ...
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
They can't deny US request publicly, when the whole Kim Dotcom thing brought it all out. We have the "Official Information Act" that brings these hidden things out to the media, who lodge OIA request constantly in the hopes of finding a scandal.
Only America was allowed to 'break away'
And now it's enslaved by corporations.
What the fuck are you blabbering about? New Zealand is under the monarchy of Queen Elizabeth II.
Every member of the armed forces swear allegiance to the Queen, not the government or the citizens of New Zealand.
That bomb drop thing was a case of "drop them somewhere or the plane will crash and explode when it lands".
"There is very little difference between NZ, Australia, Spain, or United States in the jihaddists' eyes"
Kind of like there's little difference between putting on a massive stage spectacular at the West End, Broadway, Vegas Strip, or the Aleutian Islands.
Is there any warm place that doesn't spy on its citizens?
Two were concrete-filled dummy bombs, the other two had explosives but no detonator. But, this doesn't equate to "the US bombing the hell out of Australian natural resources". It's a joint military practice exercise where some inactive munitions were dumped in the greater area of the national park known as the "Great Barrier Reef". They're also likely to be recovered - the ones with explosives in, at the very least. Also, OP appears to be mostly crazy.
"The true measure of a person is how they act when they know they won't get caught." - DSRilk
laughably, NZ once 'banned' visits by vessels carrying nuclear weapons- a hilariously naive concept but one the powers-that-be were prepared to allow the population to think was true
And what US military ship has docked at NZ since? The US even claimed to go so far as to have no presence in NZ (so said an old newspaper article), despite a current US military base in Christchurch as a jumping off point for US Antarctic operations.
Learn to love Alaska
You are misunderstanding:
What they do, is make a big show of "cracking down" on the "illegal activities exposed" by the dotcom case, but in reality, the institute their own secret courts, and spy on their own citizens stazi style.
That way when the NZ media goes fishing, they can rightfully deny the snooping done "for US interests", since it is for domestic interests!
NZ just oh so politely GIVES the information away for free! It doesn't have to, but chooses to do so anyway. If ever asked about the documents shared with the USA, it can spout the same nationalist drivel we americans get treated with:
"Oh, that's an issue of national security! We can't reveal any information like that, because it would expose ongoing investigations and endanger lives! But don't worry, we don't conduct investigations of NZ citizens because the US asks us to. We make our own determination in accordance with strict guidelines on how and when we are needed to investigate NZ citizens, and we do so only as needed for our own investigations. Don't worry citizen, everything's fine."
you are wrong.
US or not the US; each country WANTS to spy on its people.
the genie is out of the bottle and there's nothing that can be done (short of world wide revolution, which is pretty unlikely) to put it back.
don't blame any one country. this is about human nature and the concept that 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
if you think your country (name any one) isn't in posession or in want of this kind of spying power, you're sadly mistaken.
typical humans: they don't bother asking 'should we?' when a new technology comes around; they just say 'how fast can we adopt this?'.
a sad time for the human race. world-wide. its never been about country X or Y. its about human nature and how humans can't seem to govern themselves without abusing their power.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Controlled how? With America's secret mind control rays? Get real.
NZ and Australia are cozy with the US for one simple reason: it's economically beneficial. If NZ or Australia would like to be "truly independent", they could choose to become like North Korea. But if they want to take advantage of the global economic and political system that exists now, you need to play by its rules, and those rules were largely set by the US. They were set by the US because it filled the vacuum that European and Asian nations left when they self-destructed and their global systems (imperialism, colonialism, military domination, nationalism, closed borders) collapsed.
The real bread and circus is not the royal baby, it is the war.. the "war on terror". George Orwell was a genius in predicting that a perpetual war would be the excuse to bring in the police state. Even 10 years ago, I thought Orwell's idea of the perpetual war was a bit fantastic. Now it is so on the money, it is scarily prescient.
...as self-fulfilling prophecy. The trouble is that the leaders of the world read books like 1984 and Brave New World and see them as instruction manuals rather than warnings.
Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
Which is fine, because even most Americans admit the current US system seems to be doing a spectacular job of collapsing as well.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
What's Israel got to do with it? Are they spying on New Zealand citizens too?
You are correct. This is NOT spying on New Zealanders but allowing the Police, SIS and Defence to use the staff and facilities of GCSB to conduct their warranted work. They have also added in previsions so that if a warrant is granted it needs to be reviewed before the GCSB begins the work. Note the GCSB will seconded there staff to the relevant agency while they do the work.
Big media and now Slashdot over blow.
Totally agree with you on this. Would mod if I had points
Make sure your elected officials get a hold of the Administration 12 Stasi operations manual. No sense re-inventing the wheel.
You seem to regard science as some kind of dodge... or hustle.
Re the greatness and legality of 'Note the GCSB will seconded there staff to the relevant agency while they do the work."
There is one amazing reason my most countries try and keep their foreign, military grade staff well away from any domestic crime operations.
Police talk to the press for fame or cash, police talk to criminals due to cash or blackmail or obscure links that where never uncovered.
Organised crime and embassies may not be able to blackmail or entrap clandestine agency staff but police services very open to long term tracking due to court and basic work habits.
We have seen what it all looks like in the UK with the National Criminal Intelligence Service, Government Telecommunications Advisory Centre. Tasked to go after email, encrypted files by organised crime, cell phone tracking, later voice prints.
Warnings about press contacts in the police and court issues where ignored.
Courts have to be sealed, legal staff for the defence need clearances - you have a spy case setting for a 'big' drug case?
Courts are open, legal staff for the defence go after 'police support staff' about their standing as experts... clearances - you have a spy trail setting for a drug case?
Crime adjusts to cell tracking, voice prints, internet logs, they find better admins or just bait the tracking systems.
Police and their press contacts can out last any anti-corruption squad (~CIB3) efforts and any independent journalists lose funding or just stop reporting.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The US is the 2000lb bull elephant in the room, and it's the one that prefers to do the stuffing.
That said, yeah, the smell of sycophancy is awful.
Allowing your foreign intelligence and national critical infrastructure teams to spy on citizens seems like news for nerds :)
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
At the very least they already collect the metadata for all postage communications.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
New Zealand seems as good a place as any to make a stand. The unhalted expansion of the surveillance state reminds me of a malignant tumor: if left untreated it will consume the entire host.
Is there a foundation where donations can be sent to accomplish one of the following goals:
* Raise awareness of the situation among the NZ populace with a no-holds-barred propaganda campaign
* Shame the politicians involved
* Fund the relevant opposition parties
Let NZ be the high water mark.
Fortunately, it's not what people believe that matters, but what's actually happening.
And who is going to challenge the current system? And are you really so naive to think that voters would go for any change? Why should they?
"PANEM ET CIRCENSES!" (Bread and games) BARBARII STVPIDI...
Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
2000lb is a pretty tiny bull elephant....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Heh. Such a tiny place to have such a massive impact.
It does not matter, when it is reported. What makes it a potential abuse of power is that — unlike, for example, the IRS' power to grant or deny tax-exempt status, or the Labor Department's power to conduct audits — it has not been abused yet.
Yes, and the US could say in return: "Ok, guys, you follow your laws to your hearts' content. But if we pick up evidence of somebody planning to release VX in Invercargill Art Gallery tomorrow, we will only inform you of it, if we obtained that information legally. And we'll use Royal Mail to deliver the notice to you — just in case."
For better or worse, governments are judged by their results, not means. I don't like it — it lets the Executive get away with too much, but that's a fact of life — the Boston Marathon bombing, likely, did more damage to Obama's Administration (despite the press' sympathies lying solidly with the Nobel Peace Prize winner), than NSA snooping on suspected terrorists damaged to Bush's Administration (despite the press being duly suspicious of government at the time). It is not limitless — NSA snooping on all of us is more damaging still, but the public can be quite forgiving of the means — as long as there are results.
I'm not a cop and generally don't like them, but I do understand, how infuriating and frustrating it must feel to see a rapist or murderer walk free, because the arresting officer fumbled his Miranda-rights or some such. Don't you? Or when, indeed, some vital information passed by a friendly country can not be acted upon, because it did not arrive by "legal" channels...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
So, what were you trying to say, again?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I do not. I'm just pointing out, things aren't as clear-cut as some claim. For example, if there were fewer roadblocks between FBI and CIA communicating back in the day, the 9/11 attack could, very likely, have been prevented. And then we, likely, would've never seen the Patriot Act appear on the books — for just one example...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
...so we're just going to legalize it."
People elected these politicians. And they will probably re-elect them. Stupid people.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Good point. Would need an extra zero to be properly monstrous.
There's probably some sort of unintentional irony in there somewhere.