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Nobelist Gary Becker Calls For an End To Software Patents

GigaOM notes that (excerpting) "Gary Becker, a Nobel-prize winning professor at the University of Chicago, stated this week that the U.S. patent system is ”too broad, too loose, and too expensive” and called for the end of software patents: 'Disputes over software patents are among the most common, expensive, and counterproductive. Their exclusion from the patent system would discourage some software innovations, but the saving from litigation costs over disputed patent rights would more than compensate the economy for that cost.'" Here are Becker's comments, from the always-fun Becker-Posner Blog.

26 of 147 comments (clear)

  1. how to delineate software patents? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is it a mere algorithm? An algorithm with a specific realised implementation?

    Since I'm not currently in a country where mathematics can be owned, it seems weird to me.

    Does any software company actually indicate that they would stop work if it were not for software patents? I.e. is there any company which says that it relies on software patents to do business in software, rather than as a defensive/offensive mechanism?

    1. Re:how to delineate software patents? by faffod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      [...] is there any company which says that it relies on software patents to do business in software, rather than as a defensive/offensive mechanism?

      Yes, they are called patent trolls.

    2. Re:how to delineate software patents? by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Does any software company actually indicate that they would stop work if it were not for software patents? I.e. is there any company which says that it relies on software patents to do business in software, rather than as a defensive/offensive mechanism?

      And if any software company says it needs software patents, are they actually telling the truth or just lying to maintain a position of unfair power over small competitors?

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    3. Re:how to delineate software patents? by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have a two part thought on this:
      Start with that Software is already protected under copyright law. This prevents others from simply copying your code and calling it their own. Ergo, a software patent would need to be more generic, protecting a process, not a implementation.

      Take something like bittorrent. The application itself would be copyrighted, it would be the idea of peer to peer sharing that would be the patent. Well, at least if you want to get overly generic about it. More specific would be the idea that you utilize a 'seed' file that contains initial information about the sharing, files, hashes and whatnot to make the system somewhat secure.

      But bittorrent is something that, while they benefit from the copyright, they actually increase their own share by making the protocol open via helping 'bittorrent' win over other file sharing methods because people aren't locking into one application.

      I agree with the op on the whole - software patents are a bad idea and cost the economy/people more than it benefits them.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    4. Re:how to delineate software patents? by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      Is it a mere algorithm? An algorithm with a specific realised implementation?

      Since I'm not currently in a country where mathematics can be owned, it seems weird to me.

      Does any software company actually indicate that they would stop work if it were not for software patents? I.e. is there any company which says that it relies on software patents to do business in software, rather than as a defensive/offensive mechanism?

      The delineation would be among Do Lawyers Profit and Do Lawyers Not Profit. Win, lose or draw, lawyers always come out on top in a patent dispute and will oppose an end to their milk money.

      As to patenting in the very first place there's only so many ways to do something in software. While a look and feel of a finished product can be quite distinct, like the melody of a tune, getting there requires assembling code to produce the look and feel, respond to actions and such in very much the way a person could go to the well to get a bucket of water - directly, indirectly, lollygagging along the way (in code this would be Bloat) patenting the process of making a trip to the well for a bucket of water is absurd, so to would be patenting instructions to perform some task in an electronic machine (computer).

      Another way of looking at it, a spreadsheet could be patented as it was a new application, but the code for making the spreadsheet work could be done dozens of way. Filing a patent for a macro for calculating a sum or percentage is ridiculous, but that's what we're getting.

      Hope reform isn't long in coming and throws this whole stupid concept of software patents out.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    5. Re:how to delineate software patents? by T.E.D. · · Score: 2

      Since I'm not currently in a country where mathematics can be owned, it seems weird to me.

      The USA is also a country where mathematics cannot be owned. So how do we still have "Software patents"? Well, perhaps because nobody has had the temerity to try pointing out to the Supreme Court that "Software" = algorithm = math. The few times the issue has come up, both the courts and the lawyers involved sidestepped it. It's almost like everyone is afraid of what might happen if an actual ruling on the issue were to be forced. When it comes up in lower courts, its a crapshoot, but about half the time the patents get invalidated just for being software patents.

      It isn’t really surprising that Federal Circuit judges who have devoted their working lives to the patent system tend to think most patents, including software patents, are valuable and useful. What is surprising is that, in spite of this likely tendency, the en banc Federal Circuit invalidated the patents here. Half of the en banc judges took the sensible view that running a program on a computer does not transform the computer or render software less abstract

  2. Re:Nobelist? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I believe the generally accepted term is "Nobel Laureate". Who wrote "Nobelist"?

  3. Here here .... by pollarda · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It boggles my mind that the Government expects that software developers will do patent searches as they write their code rather than simply implementing what is obvious at the time to implement. Software patents are written in such a way as to make them difficult to interpret and appear broad even when they aren't. It simply isn't practical for software developers were to do their "due diligence" as they write their code, and if they did no appreciable amount of code would be written.

    It is quite likely that most if not all software written violates at least a small handful of patents (remember the XOR patent?) -- creating an unfair advantage for the companies who have enormous in-house legal councils who can pursue purported patent violations.

    1. Re:Here here .... by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 4, Informative

      The prevailing advice AFAIK is to deliberately NEVER do a patent search. Why? Because if you knowingly infringe a patent, that's triple damages. Even the suggestion that you did a patent search could be sufficient evidence.

      As you rightly point out, everyone knows it's impossible to write any significant (or possibly even trivial) piece of software without infringing something ; since this is the case, it just doesn't make any sense to do any kind of patent search at all.

      Obligatory : IANAL.

    2. Re:Here here .... by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      There are many ways to invalidate a patent.

      Yes, but are there any cheap+easy ways?

      --
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    3. Re:Here here .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It boggles my mind that the Government expects that physical device designers will do patent searches as they design their devices, rather than simply implementing what is obvious at the time to implement. Physical device patents are written in such a way as to make them difficult to interpret and appear broad even when they aren't. It simply isn't practical for physical device designers were to do their "due diligence" as they create their plans, and if they did no appreciable amount of designs would be created.

      There's nothing special about software. The patent system is broken *in general* not for the specific case of the industry you know something about.

  4. Re:As a sortware patent holder... by pollarda · · Score: 2

    It is always a bit humorous for me when I think about the arguments that we need copyrights that are 70 years plus the life of the author but for patents, 20 years is adequate. What's more, that Congress can make copyrights retroactive. Just imagine the chaos that would ensue if they gave patents a similar term as copyrights and re-instituted patents retroactively as they did copyrights. While and enormous headache and make our economy come to a screeching halt, it would be a lot of fun to watch.

  5. I'd query one of his suppositions by johnw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Their exclusion from the patent system would discourage some software innovations

    Can anyone point to a single actual instance of a software innovation which wouldn't have become public without the benefit of patent protection?

    1. Re:I'd query one of his suppositions by melikamp · · Score: 2

      Of course not. But it gets worse. There is no way to point out any such instance of innovation, software or hardware, without getting into pointless "could haves". And all the economic research done so far fails to show that the level of patent protection correlates (not necessarily linearly) with the rate of innovation. So IMHO, it is not very helpful to divide patents into "hardware" and "software" (other than to showcase a particular area where patents are REALLY nasty). Most laws don't make this distinction.

      And so my favorite argument against all patents these days goes like this: patents are supposed to do at least one of these two things in order to be useful to the public: either (1) they provide an incentive to invent things, build them, and bring them to the market, or (2) they provide an assurance that descriptions of inventions are eventually published and are freely accessible by the public.

      (2) Publishing used to be costly, but since we have the Internet, where the costs of publishing are near zero, no one needs to be recouped for this task anymore. All devices should come with full specs anyway, or at least consumers should firmly demand that. If it becomes unprofitable to sell black boxes, either due to legislative restrictions or due to the consumers' awareness, then all companies will be on the same playing field, and none will refuse to spend a tiny sum needed to publish the specs they already have.

      (1) With patents, only the patent holder and its closest allies are capable of manufacturing, and improving on a product for N years. Moreover, the patent itself gives them a clear incentive NOT to improve on a product for N years, because the research costs money, and the patent shields them from competition. Additionally, the patent itself gives them a clear incentive NOT to manufacture enough product for everyone who would buy it, as long as keeping the price artificially high maximizes their revenue (see anti-cancer drugs in USA). Without patents, things WILL be co-invented by first movers, and then the entire world can start manufacturing and improving on them. How can anyone think that patents improve the rate of innovation is beyond me.

  6. Just software? by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can apply his arguments to more than software. Patents discourage innovation. Under the current system small companies and individuals end up with a huge disadvantage. Huge companies have enough resources to try to patent everything hope a few are approved.

    1. Re:Just software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, just abolish all patents, in every field, not just software. Then see how the ensuing chaos, where copycats benefit more than inventors, destroy the market.

      This is analogous to banning cars. Tens of thousands of people die in automobile accidents every year, so it would be reasonable to ban cars.

      Trade secrets are much easier to keep in other industries, where the method of manufacture is just as important as the final product. Corporations can (and do) require all employees with access to trade secrets to sign a non-disclosure agreement, and they insure against leaks. Or they purchase stock in other fields which will benefit from these innovations prior to release. I work in an industry where we rely much more on trade secrets than patents, and it's hardly chaos - we don't have to waste time on the legal nonsense which bores engineers.

      "De-regulate something and CHAAAAOOSS will erupt!" is the argument an alarmist who lacks creativity, someone who thinks businesses are incapable of adapting. We don't need your "help".

      You're the one who is banning cars - there's a wealth of car-related inventions which are being squatted upon, delayed because they don't yet fit the business model of their owners. And note how I don't need to rely on strawman hypotheticals.

  7. Re:No more SW Patents, but FW Patents.. yes by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why should firmware be any different?

    All your approach would lead too is software that requires a peripheral with some firmware in it to run.

  8. Re:No more SW Patents, but FW Patents.. yes by Nerdfest · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The funny part is that that's a specific algorithm and explicitly excluded. It's the trivial crap that's getting patented.

  9. Re:Nobelist? by klapaucjusz · · Score: 2

    I believe the generally accepted term is "Nobel Laureate".

    Becker is actually a laureate of the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences, which is not the Nobel Prize.

  10. Industry can survive without patents by faffod · · Score: 2

    Formula 1 has zero use for patents. If a team invents something useful they try to keep it secret. If a team were to apply for a patent for one of their inventions, the other teams would simply band together and change the rules to explicitly ban that patent from use in the race cars. Despite this, the teams spend tens of millions (if not hundreds of millions) every year on the development of their cars. Top teams bring changes and innovations every two weeks (average time between races). Relax Corporate America, innovation will survive just fine without software patents.

    Now if someone points out that what F1 does is employ Trade Secrets, and the idea behind patents is that they allow for the state of the art to be shared in the public domain, I have to agree. But the actual result of the patent system is that no one reads about patents (knowingly infringing a patent results in triple damages), so the patent system isn't even achieving that goal.

  11. Proposal by StripedCow · · Score: 2

    Ok, let's be fundamental about this. Isn't it strange that we should consider "software" as different from other intellectual property? If X hours of work have been invested into the invention of a clever software routine, then, it would be strange if a patent could not be granted for that work while a patent would be granted for some physical apparatus that also took X hours to develop. (Don't think about the stupid "one-click-buy" software patents, but more along the lines of an ingenious differential-equation solver).

    So, I don't think a law that says "patents are granted, but not for software" would be a good one. If we would abolish patents, we should do it in all fields.
    Remember that the US has to rely on IP protection, for a substantial part of the work done in this country is intellectual. Therefore allowing software patents could in fact be beneficial.

    As an aside: in the end, everything is mathematics. Software is mathematics; but also a physical apparatus, or even a medicine can be described mathematically. So, based on this argument, there should be no distinction in IP law.

    What should happen, though, is that "stupid" patents should be rejected. I will explain how this could be accomplished.

    First, split the patent-office in two parts. The first part, call it the "patent intake office", will *pay* an amount for each patent that they grant. The second member, call it the "evaluation office", will, after 5 years after issue of the patent, determine the societal impact of the patent. If the impact is large, an amount is paid to the intake-office.

    (Note that the patent office will initially *pay* for patents that they grant. This is in contrast with the current situation, where the office receives money for each patent that is granted.)

    This means that, under this model, the USPTO will not so easily approve simple things such as "one click shopping" because they might lose on it on account of a lack of social impact. Similarly, patent trolling will be actively barred by the patent office (no product means no social impact). However, a patent for a new medicine may be approved. And even software, if ingenious and useful, may be granted a patent.

    --
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    1. Re:Proposal by pscottdv · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, let's be fundamental about this. Isn't it strange that we should consider "software" as different from other intellectual property? If X hours of work have been invested into the invention of a clever software routine, then, it would be strange if a patent could not be granted for that work while a patent would be granted for some physical apparatus that also took X hours to develop.

      Fundamentally, software is already different from other intellectual property as it also has copyright protection. Why should one body of work be allowed to be protected under two completely different IP regimes? Copyright protection is enough to encourage the advancement of the arts and sciences of software. Patents appear to be a hindrance.

      --

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    2. Re:Proposal by zzsmirkzz · · Score: 2

      As an aside: in the end, everything is mathematics. Software is mathematics; but also a physical apparatus, or even a medicine can be described mathematically. So, based on this argument, there should be no distinction in IP law.

      While a physical apparatus and/or medicine can be described mathematically, they are not, of themselves, math. Software, on the other hand, is math that can be described in special languages that are easier for humans to read. See the difference? The description (or the can be expressed as) is reversed. Software starts out and is math, period. It is a series of add/subtract/multiply/move statements, nothing more. If the algorithm for calculating a number's square root on paper is not patentable then neither should software.

  12. What innovations would go away? by ggraham412 · · Score: 2

    'Disputes over software patents are among the most common, expensive, and counterproductive. Their exclusion from the patent system would discourage some software innovations, but the saving from litigation costs over disputed patent rights would more than compensate the economy for that cost.'

    I'm trying to think of some examples of software innovations that would be discouraged by excluding them from the patent system.

    If one wrote software that made some process more efficient, wouldn't one want that process to be more efficient anyway, regardless of the patent status?

  13. Obviousness is a different argument by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

    Even LZW compression is fairly obvious to a skilled programmer. I remember there were several similar compression algorithms around at the time it was patented. It's not an especially good algorithm, it's just more famous (mostly thanks to the patent wars that surrounded it).

    Leaving aside the argument of whether LZW is obvious or not, that's not what the article is talking about. Basically, in an incredibly simplified nutshell, there are 4 separate and independent requirements you have to pass to get a patent, and failing any one of them will result in a rejection or invalid patent. They come from four different statutes:
    35 USC 101: the invention must be a useful method, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter;
    35 USC 102: the invention must be new - i.e. never done before;
    35 USC 103: the invention must be non-obvious;
    35 USC 112: the invention must be sufficiently described in the patent application to enable someone to make and use it.

    You're saying that LZW fails the 103 requirement in that it was obvious... that's a different argument. What this argument is about is whether all software should be excluded from the definition of "method" under 35 USC 101: whether the most novel, most non-obvious, most freakin' revolutionary bit of software in the entire universe should still be ineligible for a patent, because it's software.

    The GP post says that yes, maybe that revolutionary software alone should be unpatentable under 101, but if it's part of firmware for an EPROM, then maybe it should be allowed.

  14. Re:Somewhat communist. by ultrasawblade · · Score: 2

    Maybe creation will just be so easy and commoditized that it isn't worth it to try to do it as profitable activity. Doesn't mean people won't do it. They'll do it for fun, or because they themselves need something. I'd love it if it was so easy to create a program I need that I could do it on my own without having to hire anyone or rely on someone else to come up with the idea and try to charge me for it. I don't ever see this happening, of course, but if it did, it's not a bad thing.

    There isn't always a need for a middle man and no real reason to have one if one is not needed.