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Hackers Reveal Nasty New Car Attacks

schwit1 writes "Stomping on the brakes of a 3,500-pound Ford Escape that refuses to stop–or even slow down–produces a unique feeling of anxiety. In this case it also produces a deep groaning sound, like an angry water buffalo bellowing somewhere under the SUV's chassis. The more I pound the pedal, the louder the groan gets–along with the delighted cackling of the two hackers sitting behind me in the backseat. Luckily, all of this is happening at less than 5mph. So the Escape merely plows into a stand of 6-foot-high weeds growing in the abandoned parking lot of a South Bend, Ind. strip mall that Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek have chosen as the testing grounds for the day's experiments, a few of which are shown in the video below. (When Miller discovered the brake-disabling trick, he wasn't so lucky: The soccer-mom mobile barreled through his garage, crushing his lawn mower and inflicting $150 worth of damage to the rear wall.) The duo plans to release their findings and the attack software they developed at the hacker conference Defcon in Las Vegas next month–the better, they say, to help other researchers find and fix the auto industry's security problems before malicious hackers get under the hoods of unsuspecting drivers."

390 comments

  1. High risk by suso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The duo plans to release their findings and the attack software they developed at the hacker conference Defcon in Las Vegas next month–the better, they say, to help other researchers find and fix the auto industry's security problems"

    As a security researcher who believes in the spirit of the open release of vulnerabilities, I feel that this is irresponsible behavior on the part of these security researchers. We're not talking about releasing a vulnerability that will compromise someone's e-mail. We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could cost some random person their life. These two gentleman should take a deep breath before releasing this information to the computer industry first rather than the auto industry. The auto industry may not have a tradition of attending these types of conferences and so by releasing the information at Def-con you're giving the wrong people a head start. Sure, the auto industry already knows about these problems, but you have to try to give them the benefit of the doubt when you confront them about the problems that they will try to fix it.

    1. Re:High risk by Xaedalus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The mere fact that this has been announced has already started the wrong people working on it. At this point, releasing at Def-Con is the right thing to do, because not only will that patch get fixed, but others will come to similar conclusions and keep an eye out for peers who are going to exploit this. Black hats have family too.

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    2. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right now they have to hook directly into the odb plug to do this, the same person with that kind of physical access can do any number of nasty things to your car.

      They are more warning about the lack of security when this stuff becomes accessible remotely (cellular or otherwise wireless) that there are going to be serious security issues as anyone breaking into that remote access path can do serious things.

    3. Re:High risk by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

      I feel that this is irresponsible behavior on the part of these security researchers.

      Because we all know that if the researchers quietly tell the auto manufacturers they will fix the issues and make sure everything gets updated. Our upstanding auto manufacturers would certainly not try to bury issue and sue the reporters out of existence!

      As a security researcher you should be used to companies trying to deny, bury and ignore reports instead of correct them.

      Seriously, the only way to get a company to fix a flaw is when the pr nightmare becomes so great that it is cheaper to fix the problem than deny it.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    4. Re:High risk by chuckinator · · Score: 2

      While your argument has merit, I'm going to simply stick to the strategy of buying cars that do not attach a wireless communication device to the same bus that the engine control unit sits on.

    5. Re:High risk by dyingtolive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or the attacker just cut your brake lines.

      That's not a hack though, more of a snip.

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    6. Re:High risk by viperidaenz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Once someone has physical access to a vehicle, there are worse things they can do than mess with the traction control and abs systems.

    7. Re:High risk by mrex · · Score: 2

      As a security researcher who believes in the spirit of the open release of vulnerabilities, I feel that this is irresponsible behavior on the part of these security researchers.

      Then you don't believe in the spirit of full disclosure at all. What drivers have now is security through obscurity, which as we all know is no security at all. Significant public awareness of the problem will create the kind of pressure on auto makers to issue recall notices and fixes for life-endangering safety issues. Full disclosure is essential here for precisely the reason that you say means it shouldn't happen: because lives are at stake.

    8. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You mean like if there was some embedded computer plugged into the same CANbus as the OBD port, that had a cellular radio on it that was already shown to be vulnerable to attack? One sold on every new car from a certain major manufacturer?

      Yeah, in the future, when OnStar exists, there will be serious issues. Wait, was "future" the right word?

      The underlying problem is that CANbus was designed by automotive engineers and not network security people.

    9. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      I thought of the same thing. The one significant difference is, cut the brake line and it will be noticed at 5MPH pulling out of the driveway. This would allow the hacker to only make the brakes fail at 65 MPH.

    10. Re:High risk by radiumsoup · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You speak as if all companies are equally bad. Somehow, I think you're either young or more sheltered than you believe you are.

    11. Re:High risk by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      While your argument has merit, I'm going to simply stick to the strategy of buying cars that do not attach a wireless communication device to the same bus that the engine control unit sits on.

      That has always been my thought. However, the manufacturers are starting want the ability to remote update your engine control software. So the On-Star or equivalent system gets a CAN connection so it can talk to the modules. But the engine controller is going to have some form of authentication required and the hackers are going to be stopped right there.

      I'm not concerned about someone remotely reprogramming a vehicle - you can't even do that with a hard connection without the right tools and keys. This ability to inject malicious CAN traffic may need a little more defense though.

    12. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which rules out every car built since the 1996 model year.

    13. Re:High risk by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Then you've never heard of the CAN bus, which is in use on every car produced since 1996. You'd have to avoid anything with obvious wireless access, which means no lock/unlock/panic/remote start systems, and likely not even a car radio since many are on the bus as well.

    14. Re:High risk by Daas · · Score: 1

      Plus, patching the software of a million cars isn't the same as using auto-update on Windows. My biggest concern would be an attacker getting in the car, installing a wireless device in the OBD port and controlling it from a distance, especially since you can buy an OBD II Wifi adapter for under 100$ these days.

      You could do some really bad things to someone you don't like on the highway...

    15. Re:High risk by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Argh, sophomores everywhere.

      Security through obscurity isn't "no security at all". It's just inadequate. There's still the hurdle of overcoming obscurity.

      Just like strong cryptography is great but not perfect because 1) implementation is often flawed; 2) rubber hose.

    16. Re:High risk by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Honda and Accura nav systems are also apparently hooking into the OBD port. They report codes on the nav screen, can't (or won't) clear them.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    17. Re:High risk by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Informative

      OBDII is not wireless.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    18. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sauce?

      Was that when OBD II came along, or when it was mandated?

    19. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As a security researcher who believes...

      Wrong, wrong and wrong. Companies will not fix holes like this because they've already done financial analysis of what it costs to recall and fix over potential lawsuits covering the death of customers.

      This isn't shitty Microsoft or Apple exploits, where the PR machine is wheeled out and lackies like you pretend everything is fine. Ford and GM, the biggest automotive companies on the planet, have been doing this stuff since the 60s. They all have death costs over fix-it cost analysis before vehicles make it to motor shows.

    20. Re:High risk by garyoa1 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, it would seem to me adding computer controls to things that really don't need (or shouldn't have) computer controls is the more dangerous advancement in "technology".

      Break a knob... replace the knob. Break a touch screen... re-mortgage home, remove car, install screen, replace car.

      --
      Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
    21. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not so sure about that...it can be fairly hard to prove evidence of software tampering.

    22. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But the engine controller is going to have some form of authentication required and the hackers are going to be stopped right there.

      Yes, I too had noticed that authentication systems were 100% proof against hackers, especially those implemented by companies that obviously have no prior interest in security.

    23. Re:High risk by khasim · · Score: 2

      Security through obscurity isn't "no security at all". It's just inadequate. There's still the hurdle of overcoming obscurity.

      No.

      Security is not about becoming invulnerable. That is impossible. Security is about reducing the number of people who can EFFECTIVELY attack you.

      Security-Through-Obscurity does NOTHING to improve the existing security model of the system BUT IT DOES PROVIDE A WAY TO BYPASS THE EXISTING SECURITY MODEL.

    24. Re:High risk by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

      We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could cost some random person their life.

      Exactly. So, don't blame the customer when they find out your crappy design isn't up to real-world safety tests.

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    25. Re:High risk by suso · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because we all know that if the researchers quietly tell the auto manufacturers they will fix the issues and make sure everything gets updated. Our upstanding auto manufacturers would certainly not try to bury issue and sue the reporters out of existence!

      As a security researcher you should be used to companies trying to deny, bury and ignore reports instead of correct them.

      Seriously, the only way to get a company to fix a flaw is when the pr nightmare becomes so great that it is cheaper to fix the problem than deny it.

      Yes and I also know about technically minded people denying that problems are real issues too (See libvte vulnerability). DARPA has known about these issues for a while now and apparently the issues are a lot more real and scary than most people realize. We're talking about the ability for a hacker to do something to your car simply by playing a song over your iPod or on a CD. Or a program being injected the next time you get an oil change because the service center's computer had been hacked remotely.

      And we're not talking about ego maniac hackers sitting in their basements causing a few cars to honk their horn because they think it will be funny, we're talking about terrorists and countries writing a song that one day everyone plays one day and we have 1 million 60mph 2 ton missles with families in them flying up the road all the same time. That will be a very bad day. But that's ok, because we tried to tell the auto manufacturers and they just didn't listen, so its their fault right?

      What these researchers are doing here is treating this vulnerability as if its any other vulnerability, which its not. Human life is at stake, not your email or bank account password. Yes, they do recognize the dangers, but they don't seem to realize that they should be changing their approach accordingly. For instance, they do their tests out in the open on public roads and put someone behind the wheel who doesn't know what is going to happen. You don't really need to do that to demonstrate that there is a problem.

    26. Re:High risk by chiefmojorising · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously. I've got a hack that'll disable the brakes on any car ever made. It's called a hacksaw (heh) and requires even *less* access than these guys had.

    27. Re:High risk by Holi · · Score: 1

      And what cars are those?

      Me, I stay safe and only drive cars with carburetors.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    28. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Spoken like someone who has never had ABS decide to go bonkers on them. Nothing like "Brakes don't brake" to make you realize you need a new car AND new underwear.

    29. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It seems to have already happened.

      Research Michael Hastings

    30. Re:High risk by suso · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And what cars are those?

      Me, I stay safe and only drive cars with carburetors.

      Until one of the hacked cars hits you head-on at 60 mph.

    31. Re:High risk by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While your argument has merit, I'm going to simply stick to the strategy of buying cars that do not attach a wireless communication device to the same bus that the engine control unit sits on.

      As for me, I'm going to stick to buying cars in which the brake master cylinder is physically depressed by the pedal, and in which the emergency brake lever is physically connected with a mechanical cable....

      I drove a rental car the other day with an electronic emergency brake. I've never been more uncomfortable driving a vehicle. Besides having "safety" features that made it really clumsy to drive (you can't release the emergency brake unless your foot is on the brake pedal, for example, which doesn't make any real sense if the vehicle is in a flat parking space, with the transmission in Park), I just can't see myself ever trusting a car in which a computer failure could kill the emergency brake entirely, and in which there's no way to apply more force on the emergency brake in the event of an actual emergency. That design pretty much defeats the whole purpose of having an emergency brake.

      Ugh.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    32. Re:High risk by EvanED · · Score: 1

      We're talking about the ability for a hacker to do something to your car simply by playing a song over your iPod or on a CD. Or a program being injected the next time you get an oil change because the service center's computer had been hacked remotely.

      Worse: things like OnStar have cell phones. They can be called and compromised, and can lead to the same dangers as this story demonstrates with the OBD port.

    33. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      They should not be on the same network. Have the CAN bus logout to a device that every X seconds is copied to another device on a bus OnStar can read from. Data must never flow the other way.

      That form of authentication very likely has a default password of some type. Hackers will find that very quickly.

    34. Re:High risk by Roskolnikov · · Score: 4, Insightful

      unless you add a wireless dongle (they come in Bluetooth and wifi but they still require physical access and close proximity).
      every person that has done a 'reflash' on their car to get more performance has done similar things, I can with the right parameters make my cars motor throw a connecting rod through the block, I don't consider this hacking, I consider it sky is falling stupidity... if they had done this through on-star, now that, I would consider hacking and truly the danger that should be exposed by this article.

      --
      Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
    35. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      If that is true the people who designed those should be hit by a clue by four. You do not put the doors unlock mechanism on the same bus as engine control. You sure as hell don't use it for the radio too.

    36. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    37. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      I will notice that when pulling out of the driveway, and just have the car towed to the shop.

      The lock up brakes at random on single wheels at 75 mph hack is a lot scarier.

    38. Re:High risk by Solandri · · Score: 2

      It shouldn't really be considered high risk. Brakes are important enough that engineers designed in a second redundant braking system. The parking brake is still connected to the brakes by a steel cable. It will work even if the electronics or hydraulics on the brake pedal fails.

      The problem is most drivers don't know that it's a redundant system, and never think of trying the parking brake if the brake pedal fails. This is one area where linguistic drift has hurt us. They were originally called the emergency brake, whose name clearly implies they're to be used in an emergency if the regular brakes fail. But since they were also used to keep manual transmission cars from rolling when parked, they've colloquially been called parking brakes. To the point where most people refer to them as parking brakes now and don't know about their emergency braking function.

    39. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To quote someone: "absolute statements usually fail absolutely".

      Your collection of absolute statements pretty much failed - obscurity can provide hurdles, they are not NOTHING.

      And capitalizing like that doesn't really help, btw.

    40. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      ODB to wireless is normally bluetooth, they are closer to $10 than $100. Are there any that do wifi?

      Patching a million cars should be easier, you have the VINs and can call the owners. Lots of windows machines never get any updates.

    41. Re:High risk by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "We're not talking about releasing a vulnerability that will compromise someone's e-mail. We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could cost some random person their life."

      And? You suggest instead leaving it up to the auto industry? Which has obviously been incompetent at making things safe?

      I've said it before, and I'll say it again: they have designed these systems while sitting at their consoles with their heads firmly up their asses. YOU DON'T PUT AN ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM IN THE SAME CONTROL SYSTEM THAT RUNS THE CAR!!! Yet they have continued to insist on doing that. It's just plain shitty design.

      The vehicle control systems need to be completely SEPARATE from any other systems in the car that operate digitally: the physical "security" system (locks, alarms, etc.) need to be on one control subsystem, entertainment / mapping / gps etc. in another subsystem, actual vehicle and engine control in another subsystem, with only very limited communication between them. Anything else is STUPID!!!

    42. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are people running around with bluetooth OBD readers hooked up to their OBD port. These devices normally use the default pass codes.

      I know I'm going to pull mine out once I get to my car tonight...

    43. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      OBDII is not wireless.

      No, but my ODB-II adapter is (bluetooth)

    44. Re:High risk by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      This was my argument as well. See my reply elsewhere on this page.

      The designs are simply boneheaded. No systems engineer worth their salt would design something like this. It's like they let game console designers loose in the auto industry or something.

    45. Re:High risk by operagost · · Score: 1

      Carburetors? Finicky, complicated beasts! I've made it a policy not to trust any newfangled internal combustion engine! *climbs into Doble*

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    46. Re:High risk by icebike · · Score: 1

      The mere fact that this has been announced has already started the wrong people working on it. At this point, releasing at Def-Con is the right thing to do, because not only will that patch get fixed, but others will come to similar conclusions and keep an eye out for peers who are going to exploit this. Black hats have family too.

      Surely you see the double standard in your own post.???

      They should release it into the wild, but then watch out for other hackers trying to exploit it?
      And how would anyone watch out for that?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    47. Re:High risk by cusco · · Score: 1

      If you're lazy and/or don't have sufficient permissions to change the vehicle architecture you would. My sister will start her Ford minivan with the remote from her office window, so that the AC has cooled the car down before she leaves work (for a five minute commute, mind you). Knowing the internal Ford bureaucracy I'll guarantee that every piece of hardware on that thing is hanging off the same bus, since it's doubtful anyone could even figure out who could grant permission to separate the systems, much less how to do it.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    48. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Idiotic and malicious things become "clever" to many people when accomplished via computer. A lot of people want to be "clever".

    49. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Modern cars have to have computer controls. How do you think they get that gas milage?

      Sure, the infotainment can do without it, but the engine sure as hell can't. How would traction control work?

    50. Re:High risk by chiefmojorising · · Score: 1

      You might -- depends on how and where the cut is. There are a *lot* of things you can do that'll be just as deadly that are delayed and difficult to detect; whether you're affecting software or hardware is irrelevant if physical access is requisite to implement the hack. Headline is just a bit more sensationalistic than it should be.

    51. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never actually tried to stop a vehicle with just an emergency brake, have you? Depending on the size of the vehicle, and the initial speed, it will work, in about a mile. I don't think I want to rely on just that. Besides, the old method of a fluid connection has worked quite well all this time.

    52. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Also encrypt everything. The packets the brake sensors send the controller and back should be signed with the a key for that wheel/brake. This way even spoofing packets onto the wire is not possible.

    53. Re:High risk by iamgnat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Then you've never heard of the CAN bus, which is in use on every car produced since 1996. You'd have to avoid anything with obvious wireless access, which means no lock/unlock/panic/remote start systems, and likely not even a car radio since many are on the bus as well.

      No, ODB-II was mandated on every new car sold in the US starting in 1996. CAN didn't gain mass adoption for quite a while yet (I have a 2001 with out it and just replaced a 2004 not too long ago that didn't have it).

      All of the things you listed as not being possible without CAN were also around long before CAN (and well before ODB-II (though entirely unrelated) was mandated).

      Even for the cars that are built today, there are still a fair number that do not have any wireless access to the bus (e.g. cars without OnSTAR or the like). I just bought one in fact. The wireless access was his concern and he still has plenty of options to avoid that while still having all the other benefits of a CAN based car.

    54. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a black box recording showing such a clear discrepancy between force applied to the brake pedal and actual applied braking action as well as no change in speed would provide pretty good proof of it.

    55. Re:High risk by WaffleMonster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right now they have to hook directly into the odb plug to do this, the same person with that kind of physical access can do any number of nasty things to your car.

      TFA asserts otherwise. Apparently onstar and integrated infotainment systems can obtain same access to CAN bus access as the OBD port.

      They are more warning about the lack of security when this stuff becomes accessible remotely (cellular or otherwise wireless) that there are going to be serious security issues as anyone breaking into that remote access path can do serious things

      "When this stuff" ??? This is 2013.

    56. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      So far they need physical access. Onstar and Hyundai's similar thing likely make decent remote access points.

    57. Re:High risk by cusco · · Score: 1

      But you forget the most important aspect of vehicle design: That might raise the cost per vehicle by as much as three or four dollars. The entire Ford Pinto exploding gas tank fiasco could have been averted by a design change costing $1.83/vehicle. They knew about the issue before the Pinto assembly line was even built, but the suits had done their cost/benefit analysis and decided that it would cost more than the likely losses due to lawsuits by survivors. A bunch of people suffered horrible burns, and the shareholders got a couple extra cents per share and the suits got their bonuses. (Incidentally, that apparently was used for a time as example of the "correct" decision in Business Ethics classes, since it maximized shareholder value.)

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    58. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Good reason not to buy a Ford I guess. Are all car companies this bad?

    59. Re:High risk by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful
    60. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Every damn chip is on this one global message bus with no authentication mechanism. It's the industry standard.

      I'm sticking to carbeurated motorcycles with points ignition.

    61. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you really that stupid?

    62. Re:High risk by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      You speak as if all companies are equally bad. Somehow, I think you're either young or more sheltered than you believe you are.

      The car industry has a history of ignoring safety issues until there was such publicity they could no longer ignore them.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

      I agree that not all companies are equally bad. But the profit motive along with limited liability has a way of making people irresponsible.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    63. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Game consoles are designed to a significantly higher standard of network security than embedded systems in the auto industry. Throwing the folks behind the X360's DRM system into there would be a serious improvement; at least they were trying.

      I actually can't think of a current branch of the computing field that pays less attention to security than the auto industry.

    64. Re:High risk by jandrese · · Score: 1

      It's hard to know because they're so secretive about their security--note that this is a huge red flag for computer security, but pretty common in physical security.

      I'm utterly unsurprised at this attack however. Hardware guys usually write bad software, and security is hard for even software guys to get right. I would be more surprised if there is a manufacturer that is consistently good at preventing these attacks.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    65. Re:High risk by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      You'd have to avoid anything with obvious wireless access, which means no lock/unlock/panic/remote start systems, and likely not even a car radio since many are on the bus as well.

      Ok, you've sold me. I wouldn't miss a single one of those things. Would you?

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    66. Re:High risk by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "Incidentally, that apparently was used for a time as example of the "correct" decision in Business Ethics classes, since it maximized shareholder value."

      True. But later, it was used in college classes as a classic example of what NOT to do. I know, because that's where I learned about it.

      In subsequent years it has also made up whole chapters in books about why things fail.

      Because: once word of that board decision got out (and it always does), people simply stopped buying Pintos. It's that simple. Their effort to save a buck cost them many many millions of dollars, and if it weren't for Ford pickups, it is arguable that it could even have brought the company down. It rallied, as we know, but there was a time when things were pretty iffy.

    67. Re:High risk by icebike · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nothing in that story says anything about a hacked car.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    68. Re:High risk by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      But the engine controller is going to have some form of authentication required and the hackers are going to be stopped right there.

      You are right. No one will guess the login is admin and the password is password. Perfectly safe.

    69. Re:High risk by EvanED · · Score: 2

      So far they need physical access. Onstar and Hyundai's similar thing likely make decent remote access points.

      Good guess: it's been done.

      Here's a video if you don't like reading. There's a video of using the telematics vulnerability (e.g. OnStar) to "steal" a car later, though unfortunately it seems that the important bits of that video are censored for the YouTube video. (The same presenter gave a faculty candidate talk here and it was not censored in that version of the presentation.)

    70. Re:High risk by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      I agree. Physical connections, please.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    71. Re:High risk by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Game consoles are designed to a significantly higher standard of network security than embedded systems in the auto industry. Throwing the folks behind the X360's DRM system into there would be a serious improvement; at least they were trying."

      You may have a point there, and I retract my earlier statement.

      It's like they put recent Windows UI designers in charge of systems security.

      There. Is that better?

    72. Re:High risk by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Which means that human life is already at stake and should be addressed sooner.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    73. Re:High risk by camperdave · · Score: 1

      ...cut the brake line and it will be noticed at 5MPH pulling out of the driveway.

      Timer and a solenoid will fix that.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    74. Re:High risk by EvanED · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing that the black boxes aren't on the same CAN bus that everything else is. Oh wait, they are? Well... shoot.

    75. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would also have the pleasing (to the automakers) side-effect of singlehandedly destroying the entire third-party parts industry.

      Let's make the OBD port signed, too, so you can only pull codes with a tool that is only available to licensed dealerships.

    76. Re:High risk by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Just to clarify, because I didn't explain very well. The linked video is to Stephen Checkoway's 30 minute conference talk (and my link specifically goes to the part where he first talks about the cellular exploit). The description of the "theft" bit starts at 15:20 with the censored video at 15:57.

    77. Re:High risk by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Plus, patching the software of a million cars isn't the same as using auto-update on Windows.

      Auto-update... I see what you did there.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    78. Re:High risk by EvanED · · Score: 1

      You've never actually tried to stop a vehicle with just an emergency brake, have you?

      It's not an emergency brake... it's an emergency make-the-car-smell-funny lever.

      (Mitch Hedberg, of course. No quote markes because I didn't bother to look up the original wording.)

    79. Re:High risk by lennier · · Score: 1

      We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could cost some random person their life.

      Then perhaps the car company should have found and fixed the vulnerability in the code they designed, wrote and (presumably) tested, before embedding it into their cars and releasing it onto the streets?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    80. Re:High risk by the_other_chewey · · Score: 2

      That design pretty much defeats the whole purpose of having an emergency brake.

      Ugh.

      You might be shocked to learn that cars don't actually have emergency brakes.
      This mechanical lever thingy was never intended to be one, and you won't find
      the word "emergency brake" in a (modern) car's manual.

      It's one o those self-perpetuating myths.

      It's a parking brake.

    81. Re:High risk by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      (The same presenter gave a faculty candidate talk here and it was not censored in that version of the presentation.)

      What University do you go to where they have lectures on how to steal cars?

    82. Re:High risk by camperdave · · Score: 1

      More and more vehicles are deploying electronic emergency brakes. Good luck stopping your car if the battery goes on one of those.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    83. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WE NEED RING ZERO.

      Also, no shouting allowed.

    84. Re:High risk by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      There are people running around with bluetooth OBD readers hooked up to their OBD port. These devices normally use the default pass codes.

      I know I'm going to pull mine out once I get to my car tonight...

      Shit, and I just ordered one.

    85. Re:High risk by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 0

      ODB to wireless is normally bluetooth, they are closer to $10 than $100. Are there any that do wifi?

      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wifi+obd2+reader

    86. Re:High risk by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      This is just hacking of the internal car network. It requires jacking in to the car's network to work, which requires physical tampering with the car itself. Doing this electronically is far more difficult and no more effective than simply cutting the brake line. It's interesting to expose the vulnerability, but it's not some radical new weakness to cars and isn't going to make some mass hack cause every car on the road to suddenly lose control.

      It requires a directed attack on something that can already easily be directly attacked.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    87. Re:High risk by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Sometimes the manufacturer even labels them as parking brakes because that really is what they are mostly intended for these days and probably never were intended as anything else. Have you ever examined the braking system on a semi? There is no redundant system. They only have one set of pads and a single method of applying them.

    88. Re:High risk by plover · · Score: 1

      For instance, they do their tests out in the open on public roads and put someone behind the wheel who doesn't know what is going to happen. You don't really need to do that to demonstrate that there is a problem.

      Oh, how it would be nice if that were true. Unfortunately, automakers have historically been extremely reluctant to admit to any problems that would expose them to liability, whether those problems be safety related or simply operator convenience. A public demonstration is the only kind of thing that will make the TV news, which is about the only time the automakers are truly forced to respond to any issues.

      The good thing about this is that they're not demonstrating a true wireless attack via OnStar or other completely terrifying remote attack. Right now, it's limited to a car with a torn-up dashboard and a wire to the OBD-II port. It doesn't look scary, it looks messy. Joe Q. Average-Public is going to interpret this to mean "it's only a problem if someone rips open my dashboard and rewires it, so I'm not going to quit driving today." But plenty of people are going to be scared, and they will provoke a serious response.

      Which is needed, because it is a serious problem.

      --
      John
    89. Re:High risk by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      If someone can demonstrate that the cellular systems can be reconfigured remotely to send the necessary information on the high speed networks that most of the critical stuff is controlled on, then I'd be worried, but this attack is a long LONG way from being able to do that. Most systems likely only even have hardware capable of talking to the medium speed network as most of the interesting stuff for such a system occurs on that network and the ability to talk on high and low speed networks would incur additional cost.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    90. Re:High risk by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Hence the comment "things that really don't need (or shouldn't have) computer controls"

      The closed loop Engine Control Unit has been standard for 20+ years and has proven better emissions, fuel economy, and driveability that can't be matched with mechanical means. HVAC tied into computer, over complex infotainment, computer controlled parking brake? Not so much.

    91. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Embedded systems network security is a growing field, precisely because of stuff like what's in the article.

      If nobody points out the problems, how will anyone fix them?

    92. Re:High risk by jittles · · Score: 1

      Honda and Accura nav systems are also apparently hooking into the OBD port. They report codes on the nav screen, can't (or won't) clear them.

      But are they hooked up to the cell network? I can get a similar device for the navigation system on my Subaru that will also let me clear faults, adjust turbo boost settings, etc.

    93. Re:High risk by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is most drivers don't know that it's a redundant system, and never think of trying the parking brake if the brake pedal fails. This is one area where linguistic drift has hurt us. They were originally called the emergency brake, whose name clearly implies they're to be used in an emergency if the regular brakes fail. But since they were also used to keep manual transmission cars from rolling when parked, they've colloquially been called parking brakes. To the point where most people refer to them as parking brakes now and don't know about their emergency braking function.

      It's also referred to as a hand-brake (especially outside of North America where front bench seats with foot operated e-brakes where not near as popular). I've heard of people trying to use it in an emergency, a panic stop situation. In which case it's far worse than the service brakes, unless the service brakes have failed.

      The truth is a frightening number of people don't understand how the cars they're driving work, and it's not just limited to e-brake / p-brake / h-brake, and it's not due to the name. Many don't understand basic concepts of gears, how and when to use manual modes of an automatic, how to shift into neutral or kill the ignition in the case of a stuck throttle. A shocking number of people don't understand that an oil light means a loss of oil pressure and the car should be pulled over and shut off immediately. A shocking number of people don't know how to jump-start a car, or change a flat, or check / adjust their tire pressure, or oil / tranny / brake / power steering fluid. A shocking number don't know that a quick blinking turn signal means you have a turn signal bulb out.

    94. Re:High risk by plover · · Score: 1

      There are two CAN buses in virtually every modern car. The high speed bus is the one connecting the engine control unit and safety equipment, like ABS and airbags. The low speed bus handles the other stuff, like the door locks, cabin heat, stereo, lights, etc. Some devices talk on both, (the security module unlocks the doors and enables starting the engine.) Even the infotainment console might connect to both. It may look for a signal from the airbag which it uses it to trigger a cellular call to local emergency services in the event of a crash.

      There's no guarantee that you can't maliciously build a bridge from one to the other, but that would involve a separate feat of hacking. But that's hardly impossible, and I vaguely remember reading about a guy demonstrating it with a CD-ROM placed in the stereo of a car.

      --
      John
    95. Re:High risk by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      "Emergency" brakes are a joke for stopping. Fortunately the hydraulic brakes have redundancy. Dual circuit has been mandatory since the 1960's.

    96. Re:High risk by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      On the engine front, manufactures have a long desire for security, and recent requirements from the EPA to implement them. Most manufactures have the same engine with different HP ratings, they charge more for the higher HP, partially because of the extra warranty anticipated, some due to development, some due to higher EPA costs associated. Also they want to protect the development of the software, fuel and hp settings. Now the EPA is mandating that they protect, and prove the emissions settings that were tested are what is running in the vehicle. Although there is a long track record of the after market eventually cracking, and being able to load tunes onto OEM ECM's, thats out on new vehicles, and almost all tunes now require external hardware to do the fooling.
      Now thats on the Engine, that incentive is not there on other ECM's.

    97. Re:High risk by lennier · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The underlying problem is that CANbus was designed by automotive engineers and not network security people.

      A good point. Another way of phrasing the problem I think is:

      Systems are too often specified, designed and tested entirely in terms of their positive capabilities, rather than their negative capabilities. In the networked remote security environment, we need a design process that guarantees both.

      In other words, most of our design process up to now has been all about "what a system CAN DO". But securing a system from to intelligent attackers is about what that system CAN'T do, even in the worst case. And since the number of things a Turing-complete computer with an always-on connection to the Internet CAN buut SHOULDN'T do is potentially infinite, that can be really difficult.

      Tests generally only cover the positive features. It's hard to achieve complete test coverage by trying every possible combination of bad input (though fuzzers seem to be doing quite well at finding vulnerabilities, and it's embarrassing that amateurs keep finding bugs that the professional developers didn't.) Typing seems to be more useful in limiting capability, but our current type systems are very limited - for example, in most OO languages, the type system only guarantees that the call signature of a method is correct; it doesn't give any way of describing any other invariants that should be preserved during the computation; and the entire architecture of OOP is based on methods with side-effects which scales really badly to concurrent processing.

      I think we've reached the limit of what can be safely achieved with loosely-typed imperative side-effectful OO languages like C++. These languages give us enormous power to create positive capability, but very little in the way of assuring negative capability. I'd like to think that Haskell or Erlang might be a way forward, but I've yet to wrap my head around either of them. I'm hoping we can eventually get something simpler, that allows creativity where it's needed but also lets us place hard limits on what unexpected interactions can arise.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    98. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what should we do? Hide it? Create a precedent for automobile manufacturers taking their sweet time to fix these issues? This isn't going to get better. It's only going to get worse. If we keep on assuming "nobody but the researchers knows this, black hats will never be able to recreate this before the patches can be issued," then add to your doomsday predictions "and nobody will ever do a damn thing about it."

      I've been saying all my life that more eyeballs brings better code, that code delivered with promises should be held to those promises, and that if this isn't possible, then such code should be neither written, sold, nor adopted by an entire industry. I'm not going to suddenly say that there should be an exception in this case because lives are at stake. I don't hold to my principles only when nothing really important is at stake. If you can't deliver statistical perfection for safety in this sort of code, you just don't write it. And if this is released, and the companies don't patch it, and 200 people die, and 75% of auto manufacturers vanish, the remaining 25% institute a metaphorical Butlerian Jihad on their future products, and who-knows-how-many people are jobless, that will be better than the possible alternative of a future in which thousands die because nobody ever fixes their bugs and security researchers are constantly ignored.

    99. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactly what I was going to say...

    100. Re:High risk by Mspangler · · Score: 1

      Now I feel better about disconnecting my on-star box. It took longer to find it than it did to pull every wire out of it. I couldn't get the box out of the dash though. I thought about sectioning it in place with a saws-all, but that seemed too paranoid even for me.

      The other car not only has no on-star, but has a manual transmission too. And no ABS. The scary part is the dimwits in Engineering let some random computer get into the braking control circuit. That is supposed to be a an unhackable direct mechanical connection to the wheels. Apparently not anymore.

    101. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing in that story says anything about a hacked car.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arz6Fnflnhc&feature=player_detailpage

    102. Re:High risk by EvanED · · Score: 1

      If someone can demonstrate that the cellular systems can be reconfigured remotely to send the necessary information on the high speed networks that most of the critical stuff is controlled on, then I'd be worried, but this attack is a long LONG way from being able to do that.

      Yep, the attack in the TFA is a long way from being to do that. Of course, this one isn't, and does just what you say.

      (Well I don't really know what you mean by the high/medium/low speed networks, but point being that they compromised their car well enough to do anything that can be done by the computer (unlock doors, remote start, disable brakes, activate microphone and listen, activate and receive GPS information, etc.) through the cell network.) The conference talk is on YouTube; you may be interested in 9:30 and ~15:00, though they censor the video for the YouTube version. (Seeing the talk in person actually shows it.)

    103. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Emergency brake? Sure, there is a parking brake on most cars, but it's pretty useless in an emergency. Surely the brake pedal is the emergency brake - and you stand on it as hard as you can so the ABS kicks in (oh, you don't want that either because you want direct control).

    104. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could cost some random person their life.

      In that case they should issue a recall. Possibly of every car they made the last years. Fortunately, software problems are not that time-consuming to fix. Replacing a gas tank prone to exploding is more work.

      The cheap quick fix is to remove radio, door locks and other 'remote hackable' items from the bus that control steering, braking and engine. You end up with a safe car with some comfort features missing. The expensive fix is to install a new bus for the unsafe devices.

      I wouldn't worry about what someone can do when they have access to the plug. They might as well put dynamite under the driver seat in that case. But it should not be possible to create an accident by giving someone a special CD or send strange codes to the remote door lock device.

    105. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Parking brake, emergency brake, handbrake. It doesn't matter if driver's education tell you that it can be used in an emergency - and train you to use it. Unfortunately, some countries don't have much driver's education, and hand out licences to anyone who can drive around the block . . .

    106. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worse than that even.

      In order to correct this, I believe the affected vehicles would have to come in for dealer repair. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that the manufacturer has a repair.

      What percentage of the fleet does that? How long does it take? There could easily be vehicles that will never, ever see a dealer garage.

      Also, if I know anything about garage maintenance, they're going to charge for this repair. Watch the customer pushback when this happens.

    107. Re:High risk by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      The real shock isn't that they can reprogram the radio. It's that they can use this over CAN to get to the engine controller instead of requiring a direct connect to reflash these things with high safety classification.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    108. Re:High risk by kasperd · · Score: 2

      You speak as if all companies are equally bad. Somehow, I think you're either young or more sheltered than you believe you are.

      When I was young and naive, I thought if I discretely told companies about security problems in their products, they would thank me and fix it. In reality that has never happened in any of the cases, where I have reported a security problem to a company.

      In the real world the majority of companies will do nothing about a security bug unless they face an immediate threat of the information becoming public. As a security researcher, it is sensible to assume any company will behave like that, until proven otherwise.

      This puts the few companies, which takes security seriously, in a bad position. They have to differentiate themselves from the rest of the industry to even get security researchers to take them seriously. One way to differentiate yourself is by offering bug bounties. The added benefit from offering bug bounties is that the company get to set rules about disclosure which must be followed to qualify for a bounty.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    109. Re:High risk by AJH16 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Apparently in their test case, the telematics unit did have access to all 3 speeds of network. That's really goofy since it shouldn't need access to all the networks. Basically CAN buses have 3 speeds of network, a low, medium and high speed network with different types of data on each. TPMS for example is generally low, ABS is normally high speed and your typical error codes and car locks and a lot of the status reporting is on the medium speed. Many ODBII connectors won't connect to multiple of the networks unless you get more expensive units and internally not all components in the vehicle are capable of talking on all of the networks.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    110. Re:High risk by adolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's already a risk. And it's cheap.

      Plug a GSM modem into an RS-232 ODB2 interface.

      Programming it is really hard, and stuff: ATS0=1&W

      Power is even harder: Ignition-switched power is supplied by the ODB port.

      Using it is perhaps the most difficult part: Call the modem, it answers and connects, and...done.

      Yeah, sure: I can do all kinds of obvious and nefarious things to a car if I have physical access to it.

      But this way, I can have the car work perfectly normally for a week or a month or whatever.

      And then, long after they forget about having their window smashed and the change holder looted in the middle of the night, I can have it misbehave at exactly the moment that it is perhaps most dangerous.

      Just sayin'.

    111. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So all hacking it really accomplishes is, manufacturers will start EUFI type security on the ODB ports so only licensed mechanics can give you a read out of the engine problems. So when you break down in the middle of a small town on your way to Las Vegas, Big Bob's repair shop won't be able to tell you what's wrong with the engine. Great job guys. Get a life and leave my car alone.

    112. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they ignore safety issues, why does my nav system still suck?

    113. Re:High risk by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They get their real time traffic somehow.

      I'm not stupid enough to buy a factory nav system, I'm not sure.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    114. Re:High risk by D1G1T · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about releasing a vulnerability that will compromise someone's e-mail. We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could cost some random person their life.

      The same thing could be said of many security flaws in industrial control systems. Out-of-control dams, water treatment plants, and nuclear reactors can all kill a lot more people. Until manufacturers are scared a few times by liability from high-profile exploits, they won't do anything about securing their products.

    115. Re:High risk by sjames · · Score: 1

      Your first mistake there is allowing onstar to be physically present in your car.

    116. Re:High risk by adolf · · Score: 1

      Oh. This discussion again?

      In an emergency, I'll use the "parking brake" if all normal methods of slowing down have failed.

      (And, yes, I've driven cars using the "parking brake" alone. It works well enough.

      I have even been towed with a stap in a car which only had a functional "parking brake," which was able to repeatedly stop two vehicles, in light city traffic, completely drama-free. *yawn*)

    117. Re:High risk by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The underlying problem is that CANbus was designed by automotive engineers and not network security people.

      CANBus was designed as a closed circuit diagnostic and reporting system, not a wireless control system.

      The underlying problem is with people who dont understand that CANBus is the former and are trying to use it as the later.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    118. Re:High risk by mjwx · · Score: 1

      While your argument has merit, I'm going to simply stick to the strategy of buying cars that do not attach a wireless communication device to the same bus that the engine control unit sits on.

      As for me, I'm going to stick to buying cars in which the brake master cylinder is physically depressed by the pedal, and in which the emergency brake lever is physically connected with a mechanical cable....

      I have to agree,

      I also want a mechanical linkage between the accelerator and throttle body, clutch and flywheel and gearstick and selector fork.

      Drive-by-wire systems dont receive 1/100th of the testing that fly-by-wire systems do on commercial or military aircraft, without such extensive testing how can we be sure that the system wont fail except in the most extreme conditions. The simple answer is that we cant and the Prius incident proved this.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    119. Re:High risk by Xaedalus · · Score: 1

      Release it like what the researchers are doing. That way, everyone who's interested gets a good look at it and come up with the appropriate patches. Now, the black hats who are going to exploit it are going to develop new iterations--but they're already going to do so, no matter if this exploit gets released. They will come up with their own spin on the vulnerability, which is a new iteration. And then they're going to share it--yeah, there's a few lone wolves, but someone's going to want bragging rights. Hiding the exploit at this point, or going to the automotive companies first (and hoping that someone there realizes the potential and doesn't just try to hide it), just delays an effective roll-out of patches, and puts countermeasures dangerously behind the initial attempts at exploits.

      As for the peers reference: someone's going to brag or otherwise let it be known that they've got a workable exploit available for use/sale, and that's if they decide they don't want to test it to begin with. Who are they going to test it on? Themselves? Nahhhh--the kind of person who'd write up an exploit like this to use it for fun and/or profit is the kind of person who's going to find someone else to use it on. Black hats have family too, and if that family member is driving a car that's vulnerable, then that family member is a potential target. I'd say this is the kind of vulnerability that everyone would have an interest in knowing who's got it, and possibly doing something about it, because the possibility of collateral damage is just too damn high.

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    120. Re:High risk by mjwx · · Score: 0

      Once someone has physical access to a vehicle, there are worse things they can do than mess with the traction control and abs systems.

      Given the fact drivers depend on ABS and Traction Control for normal driving, this is pretty fscking deadly.

      You have a huge problem that bad drivers think they are good drivers because of systems like this. Case in point

      Consider a computer controlled AWD car, such as a Subaru Liberty or Impreza and an attacker telling the computer to throw 80% of the power into the front left wheel. Lets hope the driver doesn't panic and knows how to drift like a boss. I actually like Subaru's AWD, if I was given a BMW 335 to go rally driving in, I'd swap it for an naturally aspirated Impreza.

      Turning off ABS, anyone who doesn't know how to pulse brake is in trouble as the brakes lock up (I can pulse brake in case my ABS fails, but ABS is nicer and what ABS does is essentially pulse braking).

      Fortunately this attack requires someone to be physically plugged into an ODBII port. Granted you can get bluetooth and WiFi ODBII dongle (I've got one in my Integra) but it still requires close proximity and a dongle plugged in.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    121. Re:High risk by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      Oh, no?

      OBDII is wireless because you can plug a wireless adapter into it? O . . . . K. . . . .

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    122. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a security researcher who has met with car companies I know that this needed to happen. We have been telling them that things like proprietary wiring harnesses are useless for years, and the response we get is "thank you, but we disagree." As a security researcher, you should certainly be aware of the DEFCON presentation on a similar topic from at least two years ago, possibly three (my mind is going), without significant change.

      RTFA, and notice the responses by Toyota - they don't care if attackers gain access to the environment via physical access because they are too worried about remote access. Fascinating thought process, isn't it? First secure the perimeter whilst conceding the core as opposed to securing the core and making perimeter attacks irrelevant.

      Microsoft got a wake up call from l0pht - prior to that they brushed concerns aside. Car makers need the same wake up call because they are guilty of both the same hubris and same lack of understanding.

    123. Re:High risk by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Insightful

          Apply Occam's Razor. User or mechanical failure are much more likely than his car being hacked.

          The story talks about a *wired* port by the parking brake. That would mean the attacker was in the car, or a remote device was attached, which investigators would (or at least could) find. It also only addresses a specific Ford vehicle, which has no relationship to a Mercedes.

          Significant user failure would seem to be present. Options are available when the brakes don't work. Downshift. Turn off the key, let the engine stop, turn the key on to unlock the steering wheel. Spin the car. Even hard maneuvering will bleed speed off. Ask any racer. Turn the key off, let the steering wheel lock, and have a slower speed impact into a fixed object.

          The option of driving as fast as possible, and dying in a fireball is the poorest choice. A conspiracy is one the must unlikely scenarios, only slightly better than alien abduction/intervention, and poltergeists taking over the car.

          I'm kind of fond of the alien theories.

          If it were the feds, wouldn't it be easier to pay a thug to do a random carjacking? A home invasion gone wrong? Shot by SWAT in a drug raid at the wrong address? There are a million other ways to remove someone without needing a high tech solution that doesn't exist yet.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    124. Re:High risk by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      A good point. Another way of phrasing the problem I think is:

      Systems are too often specified, designed and tested entirely in terms of their positive capabilities, rather than their negative capabilities. In the networked remote security environment, we need a design process that guarantees both.

      I used to piss people off this way. Everyone would be in auto-awesome mode, and I'd be thinking "what will defeat this?". Then I'd open my yap, and they'd get really annoyed. Most people who weren't used to me just assumed I was being pessemistic, until a few predicted failures happened. Unfortunately in some cultures only optimism is allowed, yes only answers, nothing that doesn't agree that the idea is the best thing since sliced bread.

      Some times I think that is what gave us Windows 8.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    125. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most software work in the automotive field is in a specific dialect of C. (Not the incremented version, either.)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C

      This stuff all makes tons of sense when you're doing stuff like real-time embedded control software that's safety-critical. The engineers in this field just don't have any experience with security because it literally was not in any way relevant to automotive systems until very recently.

    126. Re:High risk by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

      The most popular local real-time traffic data comes over FM radio. Well, a sideband. RDS-TMC. There are other more difficult. The most destructive thing you could do with it is to try to overpower the legitimate signal, and broadcast that all major intersections are closed. Area wide gridlock is much different than taking remote control over a vehicle.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    127. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to have physical access to the car you stupid faggot. Cutting a brake line is easier. Read the fucking article.

      Captch: karma whore

    128. Re:High risk by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Informative

      TFA asserts otherwise. Apparently onstar and integrated infotainment systems can obtain same access to CAN bus access as the OBD port.

      Onstar can do many things to your car outside your control. Remember when they were bragging about how they could disable your car if someone stole it? It worked by disabling the throttle, forcing the vehicle to idle, so the perp would pull over to the side of the road. My guess is that if they can do that, they can controll a whole lot more. They can remote diagnose car issues, so that means they access things like timing, engine temps, vacuum lines, no doubt much more. And if they can read them? Who knows?

      And you don't even need to subscribe! http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/gm-includes-free-remote-start-on-2014-models-060713.html

      How about that? They can start your car remotely. Umm, that means they can stop it remotely.

      How about this? They track you for free, and sell the data. Of course you are anonymized. Until you aren't.

      http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/09/onstar-tracks-you/

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    129. Re:High risk by Warphammer · · Score: 1

      Every brake I've heard of has a mechanical connection, and I'd bet the car they were attacking there had one too. They're probably attacking the ABS system, which has (obviously) the ability to dump the pressure in the system, or else it wouldn't work. The noise it's making during this would be consistent with an ABS pump going off. Get a car without ABS? That's tricky for a new car, since stability control is now mandatory, and ABS is usually integrated with that. Could pull the right fuse, I guess, if there's nothing else on it.

    130. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like you could make a good career in the anti-tamper industry.

    131. Re:High risk by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      No, the right thing to do is to go to Ford and show them and only them how it works. It should never be publicly disclosed.

    132. Re:High risk by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      release a custom android firmware that allows any unlocked boot loader phone to sniff ojut, compromise and attack automotive systems in parallel at significant speed. if you want to force the issue, force it

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    133. Re:High risk by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Your first mistake there is allowing onstar to be physically present in your car.

      I made a similar mistake for a couple years, but I did verify with a meter that pulling the fuse is really pulling the fuse, at least on a 2005.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    134. Re:High risk by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      if they are smart they will "cut" it with a drop of strong hydrochloric acid, that way it looks like it corroded

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    135. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all security is through obscurity!

    136. Re:High risk by EETech1 · · Score: 1

      Authentication is normally done by a challenge - response such as a seed and key. The connecting module asks for a certain protocol and access level, and is given a random number that it must compute on to give the key. Once authentication is complete, very few modules need to see anything but the correct message ID# and properly formatted content, and they will happily do their thing no matter what CAN device sent the message.

      We used to log CAN data, and replay it back to the ECU to simulate driving, and it was none the wiser. We could take over control with a laptop @ development level security, and control / override anything that the ECU was doing. Want 50 degrees spark advance, it's no problem.

      I added software to a module I designed that would allow full control over boost, spark, and fuel without changing a thing in the ECU software, or calibration, and you could not tell it was there when it was not active. We used it to test software changes before we would write our change requests to the coders for ECU software. Many times we wanted to try multiple strategies before committing to change production code, and this let us try anything easily.

      One of the last things I worked on with that project was a rolling code seed and key routine to allow the ECU to verify that every CAN message was from the proper authenticated module. It took various parts of the message, and used them to generate the seed that was then mixed with a rolling code to compute the key that was then included at the end of the CAN message. This allowed us to determine if we were being "stomped on" over CAN and would force reauthentication and discard the message if something wasn't right

      Encryption was a no-go because the modules had a hard time with the computations and latency became an issue with all but the most expensive MPC555X based processors.

      Most customers will not want to pay 5X the cost for every module used in a modern vehicle to include a big-ass processor so it can encrypt data to a plug that's mounted within a foot of their knees.

      You can cause just as much loss of control by shorting CANH and CANL together and not allowing the modules to communicate at all.

      Happy Motoring!

    137. Re:High risk by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      The story talks about a *wired* port by the parking brake. That would mean the attacker was in the car, or a remote device was attached, which investigators would (or at least could) find. It also only addresses a specific Ford vehicle, which has no relationship to a Mercedes.

      Yes, they basically plugged into the can-bus and started spewing bogus data and commands onto the network. Easiest access point would be the ODB-II connector which is required to be under the dash within a few feet of the steering wheel. So yeah, as you describe this isn't some sort of remote drive-by hack that can be inflicted onto any car on the highway.

      One amusing thing is that most radios listen to the can-bus for things like vehicle speed now. Wonder if it's possible to create a virus to compromise the radio via flash-drive and have it randomly spew similar potentially dangerous data onto the bus?

    138. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car radios are normally connected only to the Body Control Module's CAN bus, which has various non-safety and non-engine related components connected to it, and gets basic information such as vehicle speed passed from the Engine Control Module's CAN bus through a CAN router that acts as a firewall between the different buses. There is a worrying trend towards cost cutting in the automotive industry though, which has resulted in some serious attempts at moving the CAN router into the entertainment unit.

    139. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a security researcher who believes in the spirit of the open release of vulnerabilities

      I would have thought such an esteemed individual would have, you know, actually watched the video. They had to tear open the dash and hardwire into the computer systems to do this. Any one with the time and resources and access to seriously attempt something with this would have ten thousand far simpler and more nefarious options available to them.

    140. Re:High risk by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it were the feds, wouldn't it be easier to pay a thug to do a random carjacking? A home invasion gone wrong? Shot by SWAT in a drug raid at the wrong address?

      I'm not going to speak to the larger question of how true the theory is, but to this question there is a good reason why not. If they can make it look like the crash was completely the driver's fault then that would eliminate any question of it being a government hit. All those other options involve third parties that, exactly as you postulated, could be hired to do the hit.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    141. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boston brakes hacks have been around for a decade or more. Hastings was assassinated using a similar technique.

    142. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Security through obscurity isn't "no security at all". It's just inadequate. There's still the hurdle of overcoming obscurity.
      No.

      Yes.
      If you're going to go around parroting Bruce then at least get it right. What he said was that relying ONLY on obscurity is foolish, because once the secret it out it no longer provides protection.

    143. Re:High risk by fisted · · Score: 2

      Yeah that will sure seem legit and everyone will just stop their cars and assume fetal position.

    144. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The car has been modified... Is this even a vulnerability? You would put a wi-fi controlled solenoid in the break system on a 1964 Impala, does that mean that the 1964 Impala has a security problem? Not really.

    145. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the LAPD investigated for 6 minutes and said it was fine. You can trust them.

    146. Re:High risk by faffod · · Score: 1

      That way, everyone who's interested gets a good look at it and come up with the appropriate patches.

      The only appropriate patch that I'm willing to trust is one that comes from a recall from my manufacturer. I'm not willing to look for a curated nightly on git for my car breaks. There might be one or two in the /. community that would consider this, but the 99.9999% case is not going to do this.

      going to the automotive companies first (and hoping that someone there realizes the potential and doesn't just try to hide it), just delays an effective roll-out of patches, and puts countermeasures dangerously behind the initial attempts at exploits.

      Not giving it to the auto makers delays the only roll out of patches and counter measures. This isn't a linux distro that was installed by people who think they are competent to install their own patches, this is the automobile industry whose customers will be looking to them and no one else for a fix.
      If your assumption that they might try to ignore the problem happens, then they'll need more time not less time to implement a fix. I can see an argument for "Hey automakers, here is a vulnerability in your braking system we will be reporting on it in 2 months time but wanted to let you know first" And if the automakers get back with you and show that they are actually working on a fix and that they need some more time you work in good faith with them. But I can't see any good reason to give the automakers any less time.

    147. Re:High risk by sjames · · Score: 1

      Alas, on some newer vehicles they've managed to screw that up as well with computer controlled electrically activated emergency brakes.

    148. Re:High risk by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's going too far in the other direction. As long as the critical systems are on a private network they should be unencrypted and physically accessible, preferably fully documented.

      What if you want to install a DIY system monitor? What if you want to experiment with an auto braking system connected to a proximity sensor?

    149. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the controls on a late model car. Throttle, brakes, transmission and ignition are all fly-by-wire-- over electronic links. Throw in the electric power steering, and that's all of them. I think my parking brake is the last item with a non-electronic control.

    150. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know that what you are calling the 'emergency brake' is in fact the parking brake, don't you?

      While it can provide some braking function in an emergency, it is not designed to do that, and should not be relied upon to perform that function: that's why automobile manufacturers can put in electrically operated parking brakes. Its function is purely to prevent the vehicle from rolling away when parked.

    151. Re:High risk by gedeco · · Score: 1

      Or something standalone.

      http://elinux.org/RPi_CANBus

      Simple logic, perhaps more difficult to implement.

      If Engine_Started > 1000 and speed > 150 miles/hour:
                                      Disable Brakes()
                                      Increase Speed()

    152. Re:High risk by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      > anonymized

      No, that's not me,. It's just some guy that parks outside my house every night and works at the same building as me.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    153. Re:High risk by gedeco · · Score: 1

      Consider I have a French Car, with TomTom Navigation, bluetooth, radio all integrated togheter with board computer. Lately they have managed to update remotely the Live services of my TomTom.
      Doesn't sound good to me, since I know they are using the same bus system as other automobiles have.

    154. Re:High risk by adolf · · Score: 2

      That works.

      The protocol is fairly ancient, and therefore small.  It'd be easy to shove an MSP430, properly programmed along with a 7803 and a glue chip to straighten out the IO voltage on a chunk of protoboard behind the dash.

      Cost?  Close to nothing.

      Wrap it in 3M tape (600V insulation <i>per layer!</i>), connect it with Scotchloks for an easy/fast install and if you program the '430 right, the ODB port still works when you take the car in for normal service.

      (Perhaps unfortunately, it's just code.  The Internet is very good at replicating code.)

      Speaking of code:  Nobody really drives 150 miles/hour.  If you want mayhem, try this:

      If Engine_Started > 1000 and Brakes > 50%-over-15 seconds
                                      Disable Brakes()
                                      Increase Speed()
                                      Wheel 15~30% Right()
                                      Sleep 5~10s
                                      Wheel 15~30% Left()
                                      INCREASE SPEED()
                                      Wheel 15-30% Right()
                                      Until Speed < 5, Brake 100%
                                      Reverse()
                                  [goto...]

      Now you're running down little Johnny and Sally as the soccer mom plows around the schoolyard in semi-random circles when she's just picking up the tots from school.

      Or destroying a normal shopping mall.  Or maybe a neighborhood with a bit of construction and/or traffic.

      Or making a complete mockery out of a traditional traffic jam.

      Oh, and:  I almost forgot.  TFV was about a Prius.  It, famously, has a start button instead of a normal ignition switch.  Somewhere in the pseudo-pseudo code should be:

      Disable Shutdown()

    155. Re:High risk by adolf · · Score: 1

      posted that way simply to avoid the ire of the lameness filter. please forgive.

    156. Re:High risk by hackertourist · · Score: 1

      (Firefox, Mac) I Cmd-clicked those eBay links to have them open in a background tab. But in addition to opening the new tab in the background, the link hijacked the /. page I was reading and decided to load there as well.
      How does that work, and how can I prevent it? It's bloody annoying when websites break basic functionality.

    157. Re:High risk by adolf · · Score: 1

      Is this a technical support forum for your Mac?

      I thought we were talking about cars.

      But whatever: It works for me. If it does not work for you, then perhaps it is your problem, and not somebody else's.

    158. Re:High risk by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Chances are you could cause a buffer overflow and execute arbitrary code using RDS. The code that decodes it is unlikely to have been checked for security. The question is how far that can get you. Most RDS decodes are single chip solutions that output NMEA like sentences over a serial port, so you would then have to do another similar attack on whatever was receiving those sentences (the sat-nav unit) before getting to a point where you have access to CAN bus.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    159. Re:High risk by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      CANbus is quite old, originally specified back in 1986. It is designed primarily for robustness in a noisy automotive environment. Back then there was no OBD, no internet, no mobile phone network. It's hard to see how the designers could have predicted all that and designed in security based on algorithms that had not been invented at the time.

      Security could be added now but it would push up costs a lot. Most CANbus devices are very simple embedded systems, and there are hundreds of them in a modern car.

      The problem is that the CANbus and everything attached to it should never have been made externally accessible. Forget physical access, once you have that there is nothing you can really do, it's the systems like OnStar that allow remote access which are the problem.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    160. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because image is so much more important than human lives, and by letting Ford lock the information away in a disused lavatory, people won't know about the problem until they are already dead.

      Don't think for a moment that a car company would be more proactive about security than a software company, and we've seen those do exactly that (lock the information away) thousands of times.

    161. Re:High risk by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's not an emergency brake, it's a parking brake. You are not supposed to use it to stop the car, only to hold it in place once it is stopped.

      In the UK we call it a handbrake or parking brake. If you pull it on in an emergency you will probably lose control of the vehicle. The parking brake doesn't have ABS, it just locks the wheels as best it can. It isn't designed to bring the vehicle to a controlled stop. If anything it is more likely to increase your stopping distance, not lessen it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    162. Re:High risk by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          That sounds like Los Angeles traffic. They don't even need the traffic congestion notice to do it. :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    163. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why they call it a parking brake these days.

    164. Re:High risk by plover · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking it's better to apply only enough force to make a change, without so much force that it induces widespread panic in the general public. Panic leads to quick, stupid reactions: "OMG, hackers can take over a car with android phones? Ban android phones! Ban software! Jail hackers!"

      The problem is panicked people want "preventative" kinds of laws. But good laws shouldn't restrict our freedoms to explore, they should only punish people who cause actual harm. And we already have laws that handle these situations. If you hacked a car and caused it to crash, you could and should be charged with assault, attempted criminal vehicular homicide, reckless endangerment, or whatever the law books already contain. That's the appropriate reaction. If you hacked a car and nothing happened, then nothing happened.

      As for the automakers, financial pressure leads them to make better decisions. If someone takes over a car and crashes it, there will be lawsuits over whether the car was fit for purpose. Win or lose, lawsuits are expensive and the best strategy is to avoid them. It's cheaper to fix the cars than to defend an endless string of lawsuits.

      --
      John
    165. Re:High risk by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      And everyone used to say Carnivore was made up. And that recording everybody's phone calls and emails would be impossible and that the government would not do that.

      Here's proof that the car can be controlled remotely though that port. We also have examples of the car being hacked wirelessly through OnStar and Bluetooth. Why would you thing the NSA or whichever TLA doesn't have the resources to put these two together and control a lot of new cars out there. What else would they be spending their money on? And if they got the car companies to give them the code or the list of vulnerabilities like they got from Microsoft that would make things even easier.

      Apply Occam's Razor. User or mechanical failure are much more likely than his car being hacked.

      The fact that he was reporting on the same people that have the ability to do this changes the odds somewhat.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    166. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I would ideally want the law to demand the keys are given to the owner of the car at sale. Each car has it's own set.

    167. Re: High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Substitute company with yourself and security with personal health.

      Why is it at all surprising the reaction is the same?

    168. Re:High risk by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Way to read words I never wrote.

      I would want the law to state the keys must be transferred to the owner of the car at time of sale. They must also be changeable by the owner of the car.

    169. Re:High risk by BVis · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that. A lot of people didn't say that. For years conventional wisdom was that you don't put anything in an email you wouldn't want on the front page of the New York Times, because the system was largely insecure. Back in the day it was because lots of email was sent over the wire in the clear; today, it's because lots of people use 'free' email services (including myself) and private companies cannot be trusted to keep your information secure, no matter what their 'security policy' might say. What's the downside to Joe's Web-Based Email ignoring its own self-declared privacy statement? Nothing, really; they might lose some customers, but largely nobody understands/gives a shit about the issues involved.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    170. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way I see it...the proof of concept came about in around 2000, several college papers were then published. And the modes of attack were emphasized. Auto engineers promptly attached everything they could to the bus. And placed fewer computers in the cars with the systems getting smaller and doing more controls. . .
      example the "robot" cars. Attaching the entertainment systems, along with the safety systems and phone control systems not limited to near field, or individual identity, can create even more problems. Check out the phone systems for android, having looked at the foreign sites, a communication system, with app, can cost about 20 USD. Apple, maybe a little more. With those you can checkout the systems of a car over the air, a little modification, to the app, and you could do more, like activate, or deactivate a system when needed. Remember you have programs that can read the data, it's not that much too change the data....or ignore the data by changing the program....

    171. Re:High risk by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Downshift.
      Does nothing on an automatic until your speed drops below an appropriate threshold. Even reverse won't engage until you come to a stop. Park theoretically jams the output shaft with a pawl, but even that can't "catch" above a certain (very low) speed.

      Turn off the key
      Many new cars (Priuses, for example) don't have mechanical keys, just a button that even under the best of conditions doesn't always do quite what you want it to - Hold it just a hair too long or too short, or have the car in the wrong gear for what you want to do, and it just laughs at you.

      Spin the car.
      At 80MPH, "spinning" the car means flipping the car, and will likely get you just as killed as the "brick wall" method of decelerating.

      Even hard maneuvering will bleed speed off.
      This one really will always work, but as with spinning, careful just how hard you maneuver at high speeds.


      Overall, Sorry for the negative tone I have here, because I completely agree with you in spirit. If the driver doen't panic, he can do a lot to slow down a car with no brakes and/or a stuck accelerator. Most people don't expect that to happen, though, and simply go into a mental freeze, stomping uselessly on the brakes harder and harder rather than taking other corrective measures. As you say, "Significant user failure would seem to be present".

    172. Re:High risk by dyingtolive · · Score: 1

      Funny you should say that. Years ago, my sister had her brakes go out because the lines were corroded while driving to work about a week after breaking up with her boyfriend. She was driving my old car, and when I replaced the brakes a year previous, the lines looked fine..

      Her boyfriend's dad did something-or-other with industrial chemicals and was a total chemistry nerd. He would have easily had HCl laying around. I probably just didn't notice the lines were so bad when I worked on them last, but we always wondered.

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    173. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same way it did before some genius decided that cars were a great place to stick a computer and a thousand sensors; mechanically.

    174. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no such thing as an Emergency Brake and there hasn't been in 50 years. Cars now have a parking brake and none of them have enough stopping force to be useful. Try your own car if you don't believe me.

    175. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also depends on the car.

      Most modern cars (and at least the VW/Audi/BMW cars I have experience with) have a CAN-BUS gateway which allows communication between the various CAN buses and the OBDII connectors feed back into the gateway.

    176. Re:High risk by plover · · Score: 1

      I also want a mechanical linkage between the accelerator and throttle body, clutch and flywheel and gearstick and selector fork.

      I understand what you're saying, but I've had the mechanical linkages fail, too. Trust me, a stuck throttle is not a safety feature. (Interesting design factoid: cables are great at pulling things from a distance, even in the presence of mud and ice, but not so good at pushing on them!)

      Mechanical linkages can rust, they can wear out, they can get dirty, they can stretch, bend or break. They can be weakened by some stress (bent in an accident) and then fail later due to a different stress (heat and force.) And of course they can be tampered with by someone with physical access. And don't forget, they can be designed, manufactured, or installed badly. Someone could design a body part that fails to provide adequate clearance for full travel. An assembly worker could fail to properly attach a brake cable to the frame, allowing it to eventually break loose and rub against a tire until it fails.

      Electronic systems have different modes of failure. Shorts, faults, interference, bad programming, protocol errors, etc. And because the instructions are both fast and invisible to the naked eye, we don't intuitively understand or trust them as much as we do a push rod and a bell crank. But the thing is, you can measure them both on an equal basis. Which one lasts longer, on average, before needing maintenance? Which one operates correctly under a wider range of conditions, including ice, mud, salt spray, and heat? Which one doesn't fall apart under constant vibrations? Which one survives accidents better? Which one has been the cause of fewer accidents? How many have failed in the field? And of course, which one is cheaper? On a combined score, the electronic systems often outperform the mechanical systems they replace. But with the CAN bus being seen as "magic voodoo" open only to the priests of automotive engineers, which seems to be a state of ignorance the car companies want to perpetuate, ordinary people really don't trust them.

      What I think is best is the use of independent linkages and systems for critical control functions, but I want them to be of the best technology for the task. I don't want a throttle failure to interfere with my shifting the vehicle into neutral, or steering, or depressing the brake, or switching the engine off, or of deploying the airbag in case of a crash. I don't want someone who can hack in through the stereo to use that to disable the brakes. But I don't want to be trusting my luck to the continued function of a weakened spring, or relying on my proactively recognizing and cleaning a rusty pivot point, or lubricating every cable every year, either.

      --
      John
    177. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a security researcher who [derp, derp]. We're talking about a high risk vulnerability that could [herp] . These two gentleman should take a deep breath before [derp]

      You assume the "bad guys" don't already know about this vulnerability.

      You're wrong.

    178. Re:High risk by sjames · · Score: 2

      That would be an acceptable solution.

      It would also mean our cars have a 'prefix code' like a starship in the Trek universe :-)

    179. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. Someone is a little butthurt.

      If you want the probability, automobile accidents are well documented. Too bad that you decided to get butthurt instead.

    180. Re:High risk by rhalstead · · Score: 1

      There's another problem with turning the ignition off, assuming you have one. It locks the steering. If you aren't going straight that's one big pile of Doggie Do just ahead. I had the throttle lock wide open on one of the earlier T-birds and it was in a corner. That little 4 took a bit to wind up but when the boost cane in it really pushed that little 4 into another realm. It was just another 4 about the first half of an intersection, but by then you were already 3 or 4 car lengths behind. I alternated between the ignition and brakes. It actually tore the port (driver's side) rear caliper loose. That sucker was expensive. In that it was a busy, 2 lane highway I was lucky to not hit any thing.

    181. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow someone could use the exploits for the real-life endangerment of innocent civilians! That's completely the fault of the discoverer of the vulnerability, not the creators of it.

      Maybe it goes deeper than just releasing the vulnerability to the public for credibility, maybe it is more about denouncing increasingly vulnerable systems that basic life can depend on, and the downfalls of releasing life-dependent tech that has not been properly designed, engineered, QC'd & tested. That could do more for educating the general public than just announcing it and releasing it to the irresponsible manufacturers.

      If I had one of these vehicles, I would be pissed at the manufacturer, not at the security engineers that basically forced the mfr to fix it the right way.

    182. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed one other option, use the emergency brake. Often this system is an all mechanical system, and not as easily disabled.

    183. Re:High risk by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      Does nothing on an automatic until your speed drops below an appropriate threshold.

      In every automatic transmission car I've driven, you can pull it down a gear. I hated racing in stock automatics, but I could bleed speed off fast by pulling down a gear.

      But hey, lets say you have a transmission that you can't shift between gears.. You can shift to neutral. Your car has neutral, doesn't it?

      Turn off the key
      Many new cars (Priuses, for example) don't have mechanical keys, ...

      Luckily, the car in question was a Mercedes, not a Prius.

      Spin the car.
      At 80MPH, "spinning" the car means flipping the car, and will likely get you just as killed as the "brick wall" method of decelerating.

      Depends on the car and conditions. I wouldn't recommend attempting it in a jacked up 4wd truck. Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of cars do it. Sometimes on the track. Sometimes on the street. I've never witnessed one flip without some assistance. That's usually sliding into something that will upset the driving a bit more, like a curb, going off road into sand, etc. The whole thing with cars flipping as soon as they start spinning is Hollywood. Spinning cars don't make the news, unless they *do* flip. They rarely even result in a traffic ticket.

      Even hard maneuvering will bleed speed off.
      This one really will always work, but as with spinning, careful just how hard you maneuver at high speeds.

      Really, everyone should learn how to drive. Like, performance driving on closed tracks. You'll find out that both you and your vehicle are capable of far more than you think. A 80mph slalom is perfectly possible in most vehicles. Heck, I ran a tight slalom course in a minivan without hitting any cones. It bled off a lot of speed, since it didn't have the power to hold its speed.

      Oddly enough, I did have a possibly catastrophic incident in that same minivan. The air cleaner lid came loose, and fell under the accelerator linkage at full throttle (coming off a light). I popped the shifter to neutral, turned the key off, let the engine stop, then unlocked the steering wheel so I could coast to the side of the road.

      I'm a serious believer that everyone should receive good training in how to operate the tons of death that they sling around daily. It would probably save an awful lot of lives, including the subject of the link. It's unfortunate that most states only require a cursory knowledge of what the controls in the vehicle do, and what traffic control devices mean. Knowing how to parallel park is nice. I'd rather that people were taught how to recover from potentially fatal situations. Most people don't know what their brakes can do until the first time they have an emergency. That is, if they aren't distracted talking on the phone and eating a big mac while driving.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    184. Re:High risk by metaforest · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't understand how air-brake systems work.
      The reason there is no pneumatic redundancy is because if the pressure drops in the system it *applies* the brakes.
      The air pressure is used to keep the brakes disengaged. There is no need for a parking/emergency brake because when the vehicle is stationary, with no air pressure, all of the wheels are effectively locked up solid. The rig is going nowhere, even on a steep grade.

      Now there are some unpleasant side effects at high speeds. Losing air pressure to the trailer, for example, is going to cause its wheels to lock up. Which can be a serious safety hazard but far less so than a run-away 80 ton semi. One reason CDL-3 requires extensive training is so that drivers know how to maintain control of the vehicle during a brake system failure, which results in the vehicle wanting to come to a full stop very quickly.

    185. Re:High risk by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      originally called the emergency brake, whose name clearly implies they're to be used in an emergency if the regular brakes fail.

      There was a time when I actually used the parking brake in an emergency but it was marginal, I was going relatively slow and if I was traveling freeway speeds outcome would have been terrible. This was a 1970 Plymouth Valiant (Dodge Dart), brake system had two cylinders (redundancy but in practice if one cylinder fails the other will not work). So I'm toodling along about 25 mph and the light turns red. Putting my foot on the brake and damn! it went to the floor. I reach and grab parking (emergency?) brake handle and pull as far as I can. This locked up rear brakes, sssscccccrrrreeeeeccccchhh as I slide who knows how long but car comes to stop at crosswalk. Small town, not much traffic. I shudder to think what could have resulted if I was on freeway and to make fast stop (or simply stop). After that brakes seem to work fine but I bleed them to be sure of no air pockets. I remember some guy looking at me when I screeched to a stop with this look "hey look at that idiot."

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    186. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Besides having "safety" features that made it really clumsy to drive (you can't release the emergency brake unless your foot is on the brake pedal, for example, which doesn't make any real sense if the vehicle is in a flat parking space, with the transmission in Park),

      Yeah, some of the modern safety features are a bit jarring if you're used to older cars that didn't require you to do some of these extras. Yet I am pretty sure there will be statistical analysis somewhere that says these really do improve safety a significant amount. I learned driving on an older vehicle (perhaps ancient by today's standards), so I find some of these a bit annoying, but I do understand they are meant to improve safety.

    187. Re:High risk by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      By the time I disable the parking brake, my foot is no longer on the brake pedal; it's on the gas pedal, and I'm already starting to move. So at least in my case, they don't improve safety. What they do is produce a 50/50 chance of me driving a couple of miles before I realize that the reason the vehicle feels like it is lugging is that the brake is still on.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    188. Re:High risk by icebike · · Score: 1

      Boston brakes only work on a few cars, mostly german, that use "brake by wire" with no physical connection between the brake pedal and master cylinder.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    189. Re:High risk by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want to be driving on one Wednesday of each month.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    190. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the driver doen't panic, he can do a lot to slow down a car with no brakes and/or a stuck accelerator. Most people don't expect that to happen, though, and simply go into a mental freeze, stomping uselessly on the brakes harder and harder rather than taking other corrective measures.

      Yes? In which case, most people shouldn't be driving.
      If you are incapable of performing BASIC operating procedures (shift into neutral-- sorry, but all Toyotas will do this no matter what speed you're driving) 4000lbs of machinery travelling at 80mph, then you should not be driving.
      At which point we need 1. more stringent license requirements to prevent 2. asshats from driving

      this is not rocket science. Everyone needs to know that to solve this problem, you shift into neutral.
      Like everyone needs to know to pump the brakes if you don't have ABS and the wheels lock up.
      Like everyone needs to know you can stop ANY Toyota vehicle if you brake and DON'T ride the brakes for 2 minutes straight.

      and finally, just like everyone knows the Federal government investigated this and determined it was all user error.

      You must be trolling or something.

    191. Re:High risk by pla · · Score: 1

      Psst - Reading comprehension: You can haz it, lolwtfbbq?

      I outright said a car with a stuck gas petal and no brakes. Maybe read what you respond to next time?

      I only mentioned the Prius because I have one, not out of some misguided crusade; and yes, the on/off button behaves in an incredibly annoying state-sensitive manner.

    192. Re:High risk by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Seeing as a lot of new cars have a camera at each quadrant (to help the parking handicapped) it would be more fun to actually do the driving from another car close by.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    193. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No this isn't a technical forum for his Mac but you don't have to be a dick about it, Hitler. If you have nothing constructive to add, you can always ignore the post and don't answer it, as I am sure you will this one.

    194. Re:High risk by Zynder · · Score: 1

      Don't think your carb is gonna save you from a runaway vehicle. Stuck throttle linkages happen more often than hacking your car's computer. Carburetors have always been more prone to throttle linkage sticking because they have too damned many linkages. My anecdote: Never once have I had an EFI car get a stuck throttle, wired or drive-by-wire. I have had numerous stickings with my carbs along with breakage of the return spring. Karma be damned but carbs are just garbage. There was a reason they were replaced with EFI.

    195. Re:High risk by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

          Apply Occam's Razor. User or mechanical failure are much more likely than his car being hacked.

          The story talks about a *wired* port by the parking brake. That would mean the attacker was in the car, or a remote device was attached, which investigators would (or at least could) find. It also only addresses a specific Ford vehicle, which has no relationship to a Mercedes.

          Significant user failure would seem to be present. Options are available when the brakes don't work. Downshift. Turn off the key, let the engine stop, turn the key on to unlock the steering wheel. Spin the car. Even hard maneuvering will bleed speed off. Ask any racer. Turn the key off, let the steering wheel lock, and have a slower speed impact into a fixed object.

          The option of driving as fast as possible, and dying in a fireball is the poorest choice. A conspiracy is one the must unlikely scenarios, only slightly better than alien abduction/intervention, and poltergeists taking over the car.

          I'm kind of fond of the alien theories.

          If it were the feds, wouldn't it be easier to pay a thug to do a random carjacking? A home invasion gone wrong? Shot by SWAT in a drug raid at the wrong address? There are a million other ways to remove someone without needing a high tech solution that doesn't exist yet.

      ===
      You forgot to mention "hand/foot parking brake". These apply enough force to lock the wheels.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    196. Re:High risk by mpe · · Score: 1

      I used to piss people off this way. Everyone would be in auto-awesome mode, and I'd be thinking "what will defeat this?". Then I'd open my yap, and they'd get really annoyed. Most people who weren't used to me just assumed I was being pessemistic, until a few predicted failures happened. Unfortunately in some cultures only optimism is allowed, yes only answers, nothing that doesn't agree that the idea is the best thing since sliced bread.

      This sounds like what people such as Bruce Schneier refer to as a "security mindset". In practice it's quite possible for people to be overly optimistic in trying to do this.

    197. Re:High risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is you don't notice that your brakes have failed until you try to use them. At that point, your options are crash here or crash there. You don't have time to bleed off speed or try multiple options. If the first option fails you'll crash.

    198. Re:High risk by garyoa1 · · Score: 1

      Actually I got 25 mpg in a 90 caprice boat with a 5 liter V8 engine. But I digress. :)

      Traction control worked without computers for 1000 years. :) Not saying there isn't an advantage to some things but controlling a gas pedal via computer seems like over kill. Not to mention dangerous.

      --
      Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
    199. Re:High risk by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      That depends on the car. I know my car can overpower the parking/emergency brake. But yes, it's worth trying. If it's a brake failure, sure, it'll stop the car. I don't think any of the parking/emergency brakes are computer controlled. Every one I've seen is attached by cable.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    200. Re:High risk by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      And the 90 Caprice had electronic fuel injection.

    201. Re:High risk by garyoa1 · · Score: 1

      And what exactly does that have to do with anything?

      --
      Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
    202. Re:High risk by lindadorsey · · Score: 1

      The underlying problem is that CANbus was designed by automotive engineers and not network security people.

      A good point. Another way of phrasing the problem I think is:

      Systems are too often specified, designed and tested entirely in terms of their positive capabilities, rather than their negative capabilities. In the networked remote security environment, we need a design process that guarantees both.

      In other words, most of our design process up to now has been all about "what a system CAN DO". But securing a system from to intelligent attackers is about what that system CAN'T do, even in the worst case. And since the number of things a Turing-complete computer with an always-on connection to the Internet CAN buut SHOULDN'T do is potentially infinite, that can be really difficult.

      Tests generally only cover the positive features. It's hard to achieve complete test coverage by trying every possible combination of bad input (though fuzzers seem to be doing quite well at finding vulnerabilities, and it's embarrassing that amateurs keep finding bugs that the professional developers didn't.)duplicate finder Typing seems to be more useful in limiting capability, but our current type systems are very limited - for example, in most OO languages, the type system only guarantees that the call signature of a method is correct; it doesn't give any way of describing any other invariants that should be preserved during the computation; and the entire architecture of OOP is based on methods with side-effects which scales really badly to concurrent processing.

      I think we've reached the limit of what can be safely achieved with loosely-typed imperative side-effectful OO languages like C++. These languages give us enormous power to create positive capability, but very little in the way of assuring negative capability. I'd like to think that Haskell or Erlang might be a way forward, but I've yet to wrap my head around either of them. I'm hoping we can eventually get something simpler, that allows creativity where it's needed but also lets us place hard limits on what unexpected interactions can arise.

      That is really scary indeed. I do not want to imagine the future.

  2. This Hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This hack only works on journalists.

    1. Re:This Hack by gweihir · · Score: 0

      My suspicion also. I think this is a hoax. In any sane car design, the brakes are always stronger than the engine. You may have to stand on them with some determination though, but even a diminutive female can do it, as that is a design criteria. Also note that to do this right, you have to pull on the steering wheel, you weight alone may not be enough. Just give it everything you have. At least in Europe, this maneuver is part of the training for a driver's license.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:This Hack by EvanED · · Score: 2

      In any sane car design, the brakes are always stronger than the engine.

      It's not a matter of being stronger or weaker, it's a matter of the connection. It'd be reasonable to say that in any sane car design there's a physical connection between the brake pedal and the actual wheels -- but this isn't necessarily the case any more. It's still rare according to Wikipedia, but cars are starting to be produced without it and with systems that have computer-controlled brakes instead. Even without a fully brake-by-wire car, the computer still has significant control over the braking system because of anti-lock brakes.

      Compromise the brakes so they don't activate in the first place and it doesn't matter how strong they are.

    3. Re:This Hack by gweihir · · Score: 1

      So the designers have in fact gotten stupid. Figures. I wonder how many people will have to die before they see that this is a really, really bad idea.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  3. This is why my car is airgapped by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    One of my cars has no electronics. The other has two systems, one logs data and the other controls how much fuel the engine gets (and soon when the spark plugs fire as well).

    To access either you must plug a cable into it. Good luck.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by pegr · · Score: 2

      OF COURSE if you give real-time access to the OBD-II port, you can have all kinds of shenanigans. So don't do that!

      How many people would notice an ODB-II Bluetooth adapter plugged into the port? http://www.amazon.com/Soliport-Bluetooth-OBDII-Diagnostic-Scanner/dp/B004KL0I9I

    2. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Feds are gonna push to have all cars on the net for law enforcement and the people will approve.

      The Lolz are going mobile.

    3. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      My car has a dozen computers in it. Still no more vulnerable than your two system car. It even has bluetooth. The worst someone can do wirelessly would be take control of my stereo, which isn't connected to anything else.

    4. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >To access either you must plug a cable into it. Good luck.

      EMP. You lose.

    5. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by richard.cs · · Score: 1

      Like you I'll not worry about it until I get a car with some silicon in it. It does have two germanium transistors in the tachometer though, maybe I should be worried :-P

    6. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2

      Are you sure about that? Many head units are hooked into the CAN bus.

    7. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by EvanED · · Score: 2

      The worst someone can do wirelessly would be take control of my stereo, which isn't connected to anything else.

      So you think. Stock stereo on a recent car? Very possibly untrue.

      "We systematically synthesize a set of possible external attack vectors as a function of the attackerâ(TM)s ability to deliver malicious input via particular modalities: indirect physical access, short-range wireless access, and long-range wireless access. .. In each case we find the existence of practically exploitable vulnerabilities that permit arbitrary automotive control without requiring direct physical access." [emphasis in original]

      Turns out that car manufactures have been very naughty. And while radios are sort of on a separate bus from actual automotive controls, there are also (compromisable) devices that sit across busses, so there's not a complete air gap.

      In that paper, they were able to obtain control over the car's critical automotive systems using techniques ranging from the OBD port (very old news) to CDs with mal-crafted "audio" files put into the stereo to bluetooth connections with the stereo to cellular connections like are used for OnStar.

    8. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity: How far back do you have to go to find a car with no electronics in it? Early-'90s? Or is there more recent stuff still manufactured without onboard computers?

    9. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by bobbied · · Score: 1

      No, EMP does not mean he looses. Cars are fairly resistant to EMP based on recent testing. Some (not all) cars may be upset by an EMP enough to stop running, but nearly 100% of them will run just fine when restarted. Most of the damage will be done by the accidents caused by the cars that stop running.

      Yea, I know.. You need some evidence.. I'm looking in my spare time.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by chispito · · Score: 1

      OF COURSE if you give real-time access to the OBD-II port, you can have all kinds of shenanigans. So don't do that!

      How many people would notice an ODB-II Bluetooth adapter plugged into the port? http://www.amazon.com/Soliport-Bluetooth-OBDII-Diagnostic-Scanner/dp/B004KL0I9I

      That depends on where the port is located and if the attacker is using an extension cable or some other way of stowing the adapter.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    11. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by bobbied · · Score: 1
      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by SnarfQuest · · Score: 0

      One of my cars has no electronics.

      Really?? What does it use in place of a spark plug?

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    13. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Points were, more or less, gone by 75.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by aitikin · · Score: 1

      How old are your cars, 30-40 years? I'm not a mechanical historian, but I believe that would be the last time that there were cars mass produced with no electronics in them. The "purely mechanical" car hasn't been around in forever, although, admittedly, some good ole dummy diesel cars through the early 90's were produced, but had electronics that you would have to have removed yourself.

      Now, if you meant that the car has no computers, than we're talking a different scenario, but only slightly. US cars have had computers in them since the 80s, and any car produced since the mid 90s have a lot of computers in them.

      --
      "Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
    15. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      1989 Jeep YJ Wrangler.
      No computers.
      There is a fuel injection controller, but it is analog. :)
      There may be newer cars that fit your request, but this car I can testify to.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    16. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1980. That's when OBD I was mandated.

      OBD II came out in 1996. That's what these attacks exploit.

    17. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by operagost · · Score: 1

      1980, in general, but I believe some luxury makes used rudimentary computers before then. Cars during the 1970s had no ECU, but electronic ignition replaced points. I bought a replacement electronic ignition module for my LTD at Kmart for $35. Those were the days!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    18. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had an 85 Ford Fiesta (UK) with points...

    19. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I blame that on lucas electrics. Held your nation back decades.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    20. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Depends on if you count the electronics in the distributor (I didn't, it's debatable whether that's electronic or electrical equipment). Mine's a JDM '95 Samurai. If you want to go any less-electronic than that, you'll have to go to points ignition which means a '70s car.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    21. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I did mean something closer to "no computers" - there's a difference between electronics and electrical.

      My JDM '95 Samurai doesn't have a points distributor so maybe it's not entirely free of electronics.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    22. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      A spark plug is no more electronic than an arc light.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    23. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Good thing I don't live in the US :-)

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    24. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Huh, interesting. I guess that's why the police EMP mine I saw on a Beyond 2000-ish show in the late 90s never took off.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    25. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by jxander · · Score: 1

      When you can ensure that all cars on the road are similarly airgapped, then we can be certain of our safety in this one area.

      Until then, that airgap might quickly and violently shrink when someone else's car gets compromised, and they crash into you at 65 MPH.

      --
      This signature is false.
    26. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    27. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Not mine, I put it in myself. My car also lacks a CAN bus, its a 13 year old Subaru. There are no 'buses'. The different components have dedicated wires linking everything. ABS, Air con, Air bags and everything else have their own dedicated connection to the ECU.

    28. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Aftermarket stereo on an old car.

    29. Re:This is why my car is airgapped by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      Electronics generally means using "active electrical components". (And many of the comments here are taking that a step further to mean "digital electronics".) You could try to argue that a spark gap in a spark plug is a non-linearity, but you wouldn't find many takers.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
  4. Locking down the cars for security by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can appreciate applying Anti Tamper and other IA techniques to 'harden' cars, but I hope this doesn't return us to where only ''licensed' repair facilities can work on cars.

    --
    Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    1. Re:Locking down the cars for security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can appreciate applying Anti Tamper and other IA techniques to 'harden' cars, but I hope this doesn't return us to where only ''licensed' repair facilities can work on cars.

      If the "crypto" folks have thier way that will be the case.

      The problem with any type of crypto-security is that it attempts to boil down security so that it can be measured by the effort it takes to guess the value of a binary blob (e.g., a key or hash). If there was some other way to bypass security easier than figuring out the binary blob, then crypto folks think the system is broken. However, if you walk down the crypto path, you begin to realise that a counterparty usually must either know the blob contents, or have an agreed upon third party that knows a blobs contents (that's how certificates work). Either way, the cat is out of the bag. Often the only practical way to attempt to control the spread of the knowledge is to apply some limiting action in the legal sense (such as a "license").

      You could attempt to improve things a bit by segmenting the security and put some part of it in the owner's hand (e.g., requiring cooperation with an owner token or password or shared secret), but we know how well joe-public handles security, so I'm not so sure that would help things very much.

      In the end, ideal crypto-based security is usually just an illusion. But I'm sure that the techno-crypto wizards will hem-and-haw until some crypto fairy dust gets sprinkled upon this forcing a relaunch of another era of "licenced" repair facilities...

    2. Re:Locking down the cars for security by jittles · · Score: 2

      I can appreciate applying Anti Tamper and other IA techniques to 'harden' cars, but I hope this doesn't return us to where only ''licensed' repair facilities can work on cars.

      That would be illegal as the Federal Legislature has mandated that all cars must have certain info publicly available via the ODB-II port (1995 and above). So unless that law were repealed or amended, they cannot restrict access to the functionality dictated by that law.

  5. vehicle hacks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this is why having a physical key to shut the damn car off should be an absolute requirement.

    1. Re:vehicle hacks... by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Agreed, but the proper course of action if the brakes fail is to put the car in Neutral and slowly apply the parking brake. This maintains power for steering. This is also recommended if the accelerator sticks.

      Given this story, I think the safest course of action overall is to not pick up hitchhiking hackers.

    2. Re:vehicle hacks... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      No need. A) the brakes are strong enough, just needs some determination and B) you can put the transmission into neutral, also requires some determination.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:vehicle hacks... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You can always steer, it just needs more force. Just as you can always brake.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  6. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So they had hard-wired physical access to the car's data network and they were able to cause trouble? News at 11! (aka so what?)

    The only solution would be to run secure data channels between all the computers in a car, and while this is possible and not even a real burden, why would you?

    1. Re:So? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      But if they did that, you could just poke a hole in the brake line and have the same effect.

    2. Re:So? by mrex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So they had hard-wired physical access to the car's data network and they were able to cause trouble? News at 11! (aka so what?)

      So what? So I could bump key my way into your car, trojan one of the devices sitting on your car area network, and cause you to crash and burn on the highway with no meaningful evidence that anything was amiss.

      (RIP Michael Hastings)

    3. Re:So? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      The only solution would be to run secure data channels between all the computers in a car, and while this is possible and not even a real burden, why would you?

      It is a burden. Most of them are still running a 500kbps or 1Mbps CAN network and it's already nearly maxed out. Add a security layer and they'll just barf. It's not like you're going to run an RSA algorithm on a PIC in a door module to prevent unauthorized control of the locks and windows.

    4. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A minor point: bumping doesn't actually work on wafer locks (which covers all automotive locks I've ever looked at). If you want to get into a car without the key (or breaking a window) you use a slim jim.

    5. Re:So? by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      TEA and its variants work quite well on micro-controllers with limited processing or RAM.

      i have even played with XXTEA on a pair of arduinos wirelessly communicating for a personal project and my simple transmitters only worked at about 5kbps

    6. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you could cut the brake lines without even opening the door.

    7. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...with no meaningful evidence that anything was amiss...

      Forensics is likely to notice that sort of thing. If there's a pool of brake fluid, the driver is also likely to notice that before they even start driving.

    8. Re:So? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      You clearly do not have a wife. The engine in the car could be *missing* and my wife would walk back into the house to ask me why her key wouldn't turn the engine on.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    9. Re:So? by ELCouz · · Score: 1

      Slim jim would not work on doors using cables to unlock the door.

    10. Re:So? by ELCouz · · Score: 1

      Slim jim would not work on doors using cables to unlock.

  7. just wait until cars are networked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all know it is only a matter of time before cars are all wirelessly connected to the internet.

    Then the lolz getz turboz.

    1. Re:just wait until cars are networked by mandark1967 · · Score: 1

      Just imagine the Roaming charges when that happens...

      --
      Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
  8. Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by Mr+Krinkle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So

    if I'm sitting in your car, plugged in to the canbus, I can control things on the canbus....

    Yeppers....

    Just like if I have access to your laptop for long enough, I can get whatever is on it. (encryption will slow it down, but like I said, given time and access?)

    But you'll probably notice me sitting in your car, plugging a cord into the port before I take the time to crash your car, with me riding in it.....
    While this is amusing, I'm not that nervous about "security through not having some donkey plug his laptop in your car with a death wish while you are hurtling down the highway"

    Having them use the "open" canbus specs, you can add aftermarket devices, and not have to take your car to the dealer for any service.

    If they fully lock it down, the dealer will be the ONLY place that could work on it. And the ONLY parts you could add to your car.

    --
    I am 31337 or something.
    1. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by Flea+of+Pain · · Score: 1

      Couldn't they just attach some kind of reciever to the port and send it remote instructions...like once car hits 100 km/h (60 mph) disable brakes? That being said, they could always just cut a brake line as mentioned above.

      --
      Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
    2. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      The other possibility is finding a vulnerability in other wireless equipment already hooked up to the bus. Obvious candidates are the radio and remote entry.

    3. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Link from the article...
      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=1&

      So no, he/she doesn't necessarily have to be sitting in the car.

    4. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's been shown how easy it is already for people to slap a GPS tracker on to a car. What if they now slap a CAN bus bomb? It wouldnt be difficult to make a small inconspicuous controller with a cell modem that ties into the bus. Hell, you dont even need a cell modem if you want to just script your device to enable on specific circumstances. Ie, when exceeding 100km/h, jerk wheel left. Or worse, when exceeding 100km/hr deploy all airbags.

    5. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Yep. There's a Bluetooth one on Amazon for $10.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    6. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by plover · · Score: 1

      Here's the off-the-top-of-my-head list of wireless potential points of access for someone to mess with. It includes many less obvious candidates.
      Remote entry locks.
      Bluetooth (phone and data connection to the entertainment system.)
      GPRS/3G/4G cellular (On-Star)
      Wi-Fi (Ford SYNC has a built in hotspot and browser in the entertainment console. OMG WTF??)
      GPS.
      HD digital radio (it's just receiving broadcast FM, but who knows if every stereo is protected against corrupt data?)
      Wireless tire pressure receiver.
      Three RFID transceivers (for cars that use RFID keys instead of bits of metal). One each at the driver's door and the trunk, and one inside the cabin.
      Remote starter receiver.

      It's sure a good thing we know that each and every one of these devices was correctly coded and is perfectly secure.

      --
      John
    7. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by plover · · Score: 1

      Oops, almost forgot one: radar. Not sure if you could really "attack" it by feeding it nasty bits of malware, but you could probably send it a modified signal saying "JEZUS CHRIST THERE'S A BRICK WALL 10 FEET FROM YOUR BUMPER!"

      --
      John
    8. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by swillden · · Score: 1

      if I'm sitting in your car, plugged in to the canbus, I can control things on the canbus

      No.

      If I ever gain access to your car, for the 20 seconds it takes me to plug a controller into the canbus, I can control things on the canbus.

      Also, remember the central maxim of computer security: Attacks always get better. And these targets are very hard to patch -- it's expensive, time-consuming and hit-or-miss, because the automakers haven't planned for software upgrades, so defenses will not get better, or will at best improve only rarely.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    9. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by jittles · · Score: 1

      So

      if I'm sitting in your car, plugged in to the canbus, I can control things on the canbus....

      Yeppers....

      Just like if I have access to your laptop for long enough, I can get whatever is on it. (encryption will slow it down, but like I said, given time and access?)

      But you'll probably notice me sitting in your car, plugging a cord into the port before I take the time to crash your car, with me riding in it..... While this is amusing, I'm not that nervous about "security through not having some donkey plug his laptop in your car with a death wish while you are hurtling down the highway"

      Having them use the "open" canbus specs, you can add aftermarket devices, and not have to take your car to the dealer for any service.

      If they fully lock it down, the dealer will be the ONLY place that could work on it. And the ONLY parts you could add to your car.

      One thing to keep in mind is that there are BlueTooth and WiFi enabled ODB-II devices that could be used to exploit this issue in other people's cars. I ripped out my dashboard to perform a mod to my navigation system / run some wiring. When I did that, I put a 90 degree bend ODB-II cable at the ODB-II port and ran it into my glove box just so that I could hook up my ODB-II sensor while driving without having the cable dangling between my legs. I unplug mine unless I am doing diagnostics but I know there are people that keep theirs hooked up at all times.

    10. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by lgordon · · Score: 1

      Well, if you read the article, you would have read this:

      ". A team of researchers at the University of Washington and the University of California, San Diego, experimenting on a sedan from an unnamed company in 2010, found that they could wirelessly penetrate the same critical systems Miller and Valasek targeted using the car’s OnStar-like cellular connection, Bluetooth bugs, a rogue Android app that synched with the car’s network from the driver’s smartphone or even a malicious audio file on a CD in the car’s stereo system. “Academics have shown you can get remote code execution,” says Valasek, using hacker jargon for the ability to start running commands on a system. “We showed you can do a lot of crazy things once you’re inside.”

      So they are talking about remote execution through external interfaces and then directly to the CAN bus.

    11. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      If I ever gain access to your car, for the 20 seconds it takes me to plug a controller into the canbus, I can control things on the canbus.

      Since the ODBII port provides power, one can imagine a 'skimmer' style controller that sits in the ODBII port and provides an ODBII port, while waiting for a signal to do whatever.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    12. Re:Meh... Give me access, I own your computer by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or you make a wireless connection to the onStar system and use it's connection to the canbus from a remote location. Ooops!

  9. Hard hack? by ERJ · · Score: 1

    I appreciate that what they are doing is scary but the video doesn't seem to indicate what they had to do in order to get that level of power. It seems that they have wires hooked up between the laptop and dash so, for all we know, they could be feeding bad sensor data into the computers. Is there things that could be done to mitigate the risk....sure. But if that is really how they are messing with things (by tearing apart the dash and rewiring everything) it would seem cutting the break lines would be nearly as dangerous and a lot easier.

    1. Re:Hard hack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And most normal hacks are done first in a virtual environment with no monitoring software so that you can get the details down before you add in complications. Once they have the programs written that allow simple 1-button/automatic overrides to brakes, etc. then they can worry about routing through easier means of access than sitting down in the backseat with a laptop with wires running; they can just install a wireless OBDII device and inject things that way, or go through more intricate attack vectors. While the hack seems to be at an early stage, and I don't imagine an "anywhere, anytime hack for every car" in the immediate future, I also haven't (yet) attended defcon and seen what their findings are.

  10. And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other??? by ak_hepcat · · Score: 1

    Just wait until somebody reverse-engineers the communications between vehicles.

    Then, you can just send a rogue car down the road "Hey, I'm a police car, please pull to the outside lane(s) and slow down to 10mph" and watch the road magically open up for you!

    Or, even worse "OMG! YOU'RE GONNA HIT SOMETHING! EMERGENCY STOP!" to all the cars you pass.

    Or even worse than that.... every nth car you pass....

    --
    Support FSF: Stop thinking with your wallet, and think with your imagination. (cc/non-commercial)
  11. Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by bradgoodman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While they're at it - I don't think anyone has really discovered what the deal was with the Accura/Honda remote-control doorlock gadget that thieves were reportedly using to effortlessly break into cars. All the article said was "police are stumped" (duh).

    1. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by bobbied · · Score: 0

      Go back and watch the video... The guy with the "device" is just trying doors until he finds one unlocked... At least that's what it looks like to me. No magical device..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by arf_barf · · Score: 1

      I don't know how it is now, but back in the early nineties a friend of mine worked in the German fire department and they had toolkits to unlock and start virtually every make and model of car (regardless if it had a factory alarm or not). From MB S-class to regular VW's nothing was 'safe'. Obviously it was a government only toolkit but if they had it then then it's a good bet that they have updated versions now that can do much more.

    3. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by PPH · · Score: 2

      Phony unlock gadgets will be offered on the black market for big bux to wanna-be car thieves. In reality, the guy in the video has the car's original RF key fob in his pocket. Or his buddy has it just off screen. The magic box unlocks the luxury car on YouTube and orders roll in.

      Who are you going to call when that $500 gizmo turns out to be a battery, pushbutton and red LED? The consumer protection agency?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    4. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was explained on TV, depending on the car model, that device is doing a relay or a replay attack. For the relay attack you need a co-conspirator with a similar device to be in proximity of the victim.

    5. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      firemans unlock and move car in Germany ? `Wow they are polite. Look at what a real fireman should do to car : http://www.gloucestercitynews.net/clearysnotebook/2009/01/no-parking-fire-hydrant.html

    6. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Why would they even need this? Policy over here is that if the car is illegally parked and blocking access to hydrants and such, they just use the their axes to go through the windows to run lines or use the very large bumpers their trucks are equipped with to quickly move the car. Anything else is just wasting time.

    7. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by shrikel · · Score: 1

      No, you call Guido.

      --
      Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
    8. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll see your Guido and raise you a Yuri.

    9. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what you get when you put fire hydrants in backwards.

    10. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by RedBear · · Score: 1

      Why would they even need this? Policy over here is that if the car is illegally parked and blocking access to hydrants and such, they just use the their axes to go through the windows to run lines or use the very large bumpers their trucks are equipped with to quickly move the car. Anything else is just wasting time.

      Sooo, ummm... what if your car _isn't_ parked illegally and they still need to move it? They trash your car anyway? ...

    11. Re:Accura/Honda Door-lock Exploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The policed stumped video I saw was just a local police department and some unlocked cars. Of course the owners claimed to lock the doors, but you can see the thieves are just checking doors.

  12. Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Them there are the breaks!

  13. Rev Up Those Conspiracy Theories - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now we know how Hitchens was killed. Maybe.

    In any case Toyota's opinion on the whole matter is incredibly naive. Just because a wireless attack can't be launched against a stock vehicle doesn't mean that a savvy attacker can't and won't attach a device capable of tampering with the vehicle's computers which responds to wireless signals. Considering how inconspicuous such a device could be, perhaps something the size of a thumb drive these days, the device in question would be for all intents and purposes an invisible car bomb. If a vehicle your company manufactures has any such vulnerabilities, making them as inaccessible as humanly possible isn't just prudent, it can and likely will save lives.

    The hackers sum this up brilliantly: "If the only thing keeping you from crashing your car is that no one is talking about this, then you're not safe anyway."

    1. Re:Rev Up Those Conspiracy Theories - by robot256 · · Score: 2

      This is precisely the kind of attack I thought of when they started talking about auto computer security this week. These attack vectors will not be used by hax0rs to make a political statement or spam people's dashboards. They will be used by cartels and spy agencies for targeted assassinations and ransom.

      Imagine getting a voice-scrambled message on your phone telling you transfer $50,000 to this account or your wife's car will go out of control on her way home with the kids this evening. Or a prominent diplomat dies in an unexplained crash, triggered by a chip installed months earlier when the car was in for maintenance. It's exactly the kind of thing they would do on the show Burn Notice, for example.

    2. Re:Rev Up Those Conspiracy Theories - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or a reporter (Michael Hastings) whose award winning work caused Stanley McChrystal's resignation mysteriously dying in a single car accident with a tree; without skid marks and the engine winding up 200 feet away...

  14. Not News: They put it into brake service mode. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To enter the Pad Service Mode, perform the following with the vehicle stationary:

    1. Place the vehicle in Park and turn the ignition to the ON position.
    2. Apply the brake pedal.
    3. Turn the ignition OFF, then ON three times and then release the brake pedal. The total time elapsed for the three ignition cycles and brake release must be less than 3 seconds.

    That's how you replace the brake pads. If they figured out how to do it through the OBD connector, whooptie do.

    I have one of these vehicles. Fly-by-wire regenerative brakes are a little creepy, but supposedly if something goes wrong and you mash the pedal all the way to the floor, there's a hydraulic backup down there somewhere. I haven't had to try it.

    Oh, and all this is no different than your holier-than-thou Toyota Prius, so don't blame Ford.

  15. No more automatics for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems like a good reason to drive a manual (even if clutch is some sort of clutch-by-wire contraption, you can always just yank the gear out with the stick) with a mechanical handbrake. Whatever happens you still retain the ability to stop the vehicle.

    1. Re:No more automatics for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An automatic can be slammed into neutral too.

      The real question is why the fuck there's no purely mechanical backup to the foot brake.

    2. Re:No more automatics for me by slew · · Score: 1

      An automatic can be slammed into neutral too.

      The real question is why the fuck there's no purely mechanical backup to the foot brake.

      Automatics do have a purely mechanical emergency brake pedal. Many safety concious folks use this emergency brake (aka a parking brake) when parking on steep hills to augment the so-called "Park" position on the automatic transmission (which usually just a pawl in the transmission which can't really stop you when you are moving). It isn't a great thing to do when you aren't stoppped, but hey, it's an emergency backup.

      Of course if you didn't know of the existance of this pedal, perhaps you should go locate it in your car before the next time you drive.

    3. Re:No more automatics for me by dave420 · · Score: 1

      It's not an emergency brake. It's a parking brake. It's only good as a last resort if you can't steer your way to a safer stop, as it will most likely cause you to go into a skid and completely lose control.

  16. Nothing to see here...move along... by Zalbik · · Score: 1

    Sensationalist headline & summary tries to give the impression that the car was hacked remotely.

    RTFA and it says:

    "Okay, now your brakes work again,” Miller says, tapping on a beat-up MacBook connected by a cable to an inconspicuous data port near the parking brake.

    Likely they were hooking up to the OBD plug.

    Seriously, is this really an issue? Once someone has physical access to the vehicle, they can do all sorts of nasty things...most of which require substantially less technology and computer know-how than a hacker using a MacBook.

    I'm hoping the car industry spends the minimum effort fixing this problem, by applying the obvious solution:
    a) Put a friggin' lock on the ODB plug.
    b) Put the ODB plug under the hood.

    Requiring the ODB plug to be within 2 feet of the steering column was a stupid stupid decision.

    1. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by james_shoemaker · · Score: 1

      The problem is there are plenty of cars out there with OnStar, Toyotaâ(TM)s Safety Connect, SYNC, and other wireless systems and guess what bus the OnStar module is plugged into.

    2. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by HornWumpus · · Score: 3

      Can you imagine where the motherfuckers would have hidden the plug had they not been told more or less where it had to go?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by rahvin112 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes I can, it would be on the back of the engine and would require a special tool only sold by the dealer to open the door and would likely require the removal of the starter motor and timing belt/chain to access and for bonus points someone like Porsche would require removal of the head gasket to reach the port.

      Putting it within 2 feet of the driver was smart, it should have had the additional requirement to be within 6 inches of both the radio and climate controls because if they had everyone would notice some strange object plugged into the port.

    4. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Another experienced mechanic, well met.

      If someone was up to no good. They would unscrew the port, tuck it up under the dash with their device, then screw a replacement port into place.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by adolf · · Score: 1

      This, exactly.

    6. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Can you imagine where the motherfuckers would have hidden the plug had they not been told more or less where it had to go?

      This,

      They cant even agree on which side to put the petrol cap or indicator stalks.

      Also it's easier to open the bonnet of the car to place an ODBII dongle without it being noticed than it is to break into the car to and place an ODB dongle near the steering column without it being noticed.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      Ford's implementation of OBD-1 was easy to access in the engine compartment and had a low-speed mode where codes could be read on a multimeter by counting pulses. No government intervention was needed to get them to do that.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    8. Re:Nothing to see here...move along... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government intervention was needed to get them to use the same connector and family of protocols as Chevy, Volkswagen, Honda, et. al.

      Seriously, you sound like you've actually read OBD-1 codes in the past -- you did notice that every manufacturer needed a different code reader, right?

  17. And people wonder... by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    And people wonder why I drive a vehicle from the 1980s... let's see, no electronics hooked to the vehicle control systems making it externally vulnerable to attack, no expensive electronic failures, no overly complex electronic controls, no expensive electrical/computer modules to fail, simple isolated systems, and an overall lower count of possible parts which can fail.

    Result: I can have my fancy gadgets on their own 12v relay, completely independent from anything else working.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    1. Re:And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Soon those vehicles will be taken off the road under spurious premises linked to "carbon control".

    2. Re:And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he's using an old vehicle and able to maintain it, he would probably have no problem updating the engine to the newer, carbon friendly varieties that the government love so much.

       

    3. Re:And people wonder... by operagost · · Score: 1

      Most cars sold in the USA in the 1980s did have onboard computers... they just weren't OBD-II yet. If you have EFI of any variety, it's guaranteed you have one.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And people wonder why I drive a vehicle from the 1980s

      We just thought it was 'cuz you're cheap.

    5. Re:And people wonder... by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      My 1975 Ford Maverick didn't have fuel-injection, but it did have electronic ignition.

    6. Re:And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nice excuse

    7. Re:And people wonder... by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      And are full of the electronics that he doesn't want because he would then lose most of the ability to maintain it.

    8. Re:And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To bad you're not the only one on the road...anyone can crash into you...at any time...

    9. Re:And people wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And people wonder why I drive a vehicle from the 1980s"

      No, they know why. Cause that's the only car that Mom will buy you, now get back in the basement.

  18. What is the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So he learned how to plug into the can-bus and send messages. How is that a security hack??

    1. Re:What is the point by Golden_Rider · · Score: 1

      So he learned how to plug into the can-bus and send messages. How is that a security hack??

      Because, as linked to in the article, stuff like this is also possible by hacking into the car via a cellular phone connection:

      "In their remote experiment, the researchers were able to undermine the security protecting the cellular phone in the vehicle they bought and then insert malicious software. This allowed them to send commands to the car’s electronic control unit — the nerve center of a vehicle’s electronics system — which in turn made it possible to override various vehicle controls. "

  19. finally by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    I really, really, really sincerely hope they put the code EVERYWHERE so that we can have about a thousand cars go through their garages and up curbs and onto porches, etc. Then finally CNN would hop on it like Oprah on a cheese tray and the industry would actually have to do something about it. You know those out of control Priuses? Software glitch. You have an out of control car that's specifically caused by another person at will and it's like a circus Christmas to the media. Then finally the auto industry would get a clue and fix security permanently.

    1. Re:finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security will be "fixed" allright. Each component, be it a water pump, fuel pump, oil filter, etc... would have a chip in it, and only be available from the car maker. It will be great for them, since cars would have to go to the dealer to have any work done outside of adding gas. However, for the average person, it takes control of their vehicle away, and into the hands of a few.

      We already have this. If the battery goes dead on a new BMW, you can't just drop a new one in, attach the terminals and drive off. You have to take the BMW to an authorized dealer so they can re-flash battery info in ($500 minimum), and then, the car computer might start. Or it might not, and you have to shell out another $750 for some upgrades.

      Given the choice of the remote chance of being hacked through the OBD port versus having to take the vehicle to the dealer for any issues or maintaining, I'll take the "vulnerable" OBD port anyway. Cars are quite locked down as it is (look how long it took to get tunes for Ford's new EcoBoost), we really don't need additional lockdown.

    2. Re:finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean that ONE SINGLE ISOLATED EVENT where the guy driver a Prius was standing on the accelerator and refused to push the damn GIANT POWER BUTTON to TURN HIS FUCKING CAR OFF and told a bunch of lies to while he ABUSED THE LEGAL SYSTEM WITH FRAUDULENT CLAIMS OF DEFECTIVE BRAKES?

    3. Re:finally by cusco · · Score: 1

      The "permanent" fix will be to make it illegal to tamper with the electronics of the car in any way. They're not likely to add ten or twenty dollars to the cost of building a vehicle if they can avoid it.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  20. not a hack by klossner · · Score: 1

    In order to disable the breaks, they gained access to the car's interior and plugged a computer into the system bus. It's easier and less intrusive to cut a brake line. Wake me up when they can hack the car from outside.

    1. Re:not a hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=1& ... That's link for the article that describes wireless intrusion. The article even said that the techniques could be paired.

    2. Re:not a hack by jittles · · Score: 1

      In order to disable the breaks, they gained access to the car's interior and plugged a computer into the system bus. It's easier and less intrusive to cut a brake line. Wake me up when they can hack the car from outside.

      VW hooks up the stereos in their cars to the CANBUS so that the stereo can detect when the door opens, and things like that. I am not saying its possible, but if there were a security flaw with a BT enabled stereo, it may be theoretically possible to access the CANBUS on the car and screw things up remotely.

    3. Re:not a hack by hurfy · · Score: 1

      Forgot about the fact the stereo watches the doors cause the radio doesn't turn off until you open the door on our Escape.
      The alarm and doors locks don't lock if there is a door open on another. (haven't cross tested) Engine probably won't start if door is open either. Right there we could have a lot of the systems tied together somehow and that was only one sensor.

      Radio thing is a bit weird the 1st few times....

  21. Wireless, quite easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a real world exploit right now, all one has to do is hack together a wireless module that plugs right into the odb buss and it's a done deal.

    Slash Dot has gotten so soft, no thinking out of the box anymore, just snarky comments on why it's not a valid hack.

    Most of you are potential victims because you can't see how easy it is to accomplish.

    1. Re:Wireless, quite easy. by plover · · Score: 1

      all one has to do is hack together a wireless module that plugs right into the odb buss and it's a done deal.

      Hack together? You can buy a WiFi -- OBD2 bridge on ebay for under $100 so you can run diagnostic tools on your iPhone. And if you don't like WiFi, you can buy a Bluetooth one instead.

      --
      John
  22. I don't get it ... by recrudescence · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... can some one explain it to me with a car analogy?

    1. Re:I don't get it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      its like a car that was left unlocked and running and you attached a computer that you will never get back to their on board diagnostic port and then hid in the back seat and made it crash into a wall.

  23. Plane crashing to dispatch targets so 1990's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now there's a way to dispatch targets without diluting suspicion in tragedy by having to kill so many others just to get to the target.

  24. People and their computers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ". . . it would seem cutting the break lines would be nearly as dangerous and a lot easier."

    True. But haven't you noticed that people will do all kinds of malicious things with a computer when they would never do the equivalent by other means.

    There are all kinds of thieves, but the type to rob a bank in person and the type to rob it via computer hacking tend to be very different, even though the crime is broadly the same.

    Which is all to say that if a crime can be done a "smarter" way, especially a way that involves a much different skill-set, some marginal increase in the number of people committing the crime seems inevitable.

  25. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Or, even worse "OMG! YOU'RE GONNA HIT SOMETHING! EMERGENCY STOP!" to all the cars you pass.

    I had something kinda like that 20 years ago. A microwave transmitter from an automatic door opener sensor. $15. A battery. $1. A switch. $1.

    Watching the tail lights light up on all the cars that have just zipped past you on the freeway as the radar detectors in those cars start squawking. Priceless. Passing them as they slow to well below the speed limit. Priceless. Watching them zip past again, slam on brakes again, get passed again. Priceless.

  26. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by Kielistic · · Score: 1

    Both of those things are already possible and with similar levels of detectability.

    I could easily instal strobes into my lights to make my vehicle look like an unmarked cruiser.

    I can lob paint balloons (or anything really) out the windows at other drivers.

    Same outcome. These things have been possible for ever yet we don't see some epidemic of them happening.

  27. Clutch... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's always a good idea to drive a car with an emergency disconnect-engine-from-transmission pedal. :-)

  28. Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by golodh · · Score: 4, Insightful
    apart from the banks, the tobacco industry, the arms industry, big pharma, big oil, marketing firms and so forth.

    If only because their helmsmen are required, by law, to maximise shareholder value. Nothing else. In fact: senior management can be sued if they don't set policy to that effect.

    The upshot is that no publicly traded company can really afford a moral or ethical compass. What passes for ethics in companies is usually nothing but well-understood self-interest (as in: avoidance of PR damage and a resulting slump in sales through bad publicity).

    Whilst I'm against releasing any kind of software vulnerabilities before the responsible parties have had a decent chance to fix it, I'm just as skeptical as most regarding the inclination of e.g. car manufacturers to improve security unless there is a massive PR debacle. For massive PR debacle read: a nasty and widely covered crash involving a photogenic celebrity (ugly celebrities won't cut it) and his/her children, that can be traced unequivocally to the lax security of a car's on-board datacommunication infrastructure.

    That's the main thing I can see as getting their attention and lending the issue any kind or urgency. If only because of CYA considerations on part of top management. The only alternative would (in my view) be compulsory network safety standards for cars.

    1. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "because their helmsmen are required, by law, to maximise shareholder value"

      citation needed

    2. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by SleazyRidr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The board of directors do not have a requirement to "maximise shareholder value." Most companies could acheive this by liquidating their assets and investing a another company which is doing better.

      The board of directors do have a requirement to uphold the company charter. Many charters include wording like "maximise shareholder value" but it is also clear that they intend to do this by providing goods and/or services to people, not by kidnapping college students and selling their kidneys.

    3. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by smillie · · Score: 1

      "If only because their helmsmen are required, by law, to maximise shareholder value."

      This shows up on almost every discussion of companies. It is false. There is no legal requirement for management to maximise the value of the company or maximise the share price. Management would have to do something really, really obviously deliberately bad for the company before anyone would have a chance of a legal recourse. Merely bankrupting the company with rediculous lawsuits (ala SCO) isn't going to get management into legal trouble. Shareholders might sue but that's a different issue.

      --

      Dyslexics Untie!

    4. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      The board of directors do have a requirement to uphold the company charter. Many charters include wording like "maximise shareholder value" but it is also clear that they intend to do this by providing goods and/or services to people, not by kidnapping college students and selling their kidneys.

      That is often true. And then there's Dyncorp. http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11119

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    5. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by lennier · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The board of directors do not have a requirement to "maximise shareholder value." Most companies could acheive this by liquidating their assets and investing a another company which is doing better.

      And isn't that exactly what the tidal wave of mergers, acquisitions and restructurings from the 1980s on have all been about? Buying and selling shells of companies, liquidating their assets, closing the factories, selling the brand to someone else, and then outsourcing the production to China and Mexico while centralising the banking in London, the paperwork in the Cayman Islands and the corporate headquarters in New York.

      Doing this kind of shell game creates a reputation for a CEO as a "miracle worker" and "turnaround artist" and billions of dollars in share value. But if you look behind the scenes you see an increasingly hollow stack of cards that's propped up by debt and gambling rather than production.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    6. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by sjames · · Score: 2

      The old shareholder value thing is their favorite excuse, but it's just that. They are in no way required to act in an immoral, unethical, or illegal manner. In theory, their charter can be yanked for any of those since a condition of incorporation is that it be at least marginally in the public interest.

      In fact, they freely choose to act in the manner they do secure in the knowledge that the corporate death penalty practically never happens and personal liability for their acts is nearly as unlikely.

    7. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by angst_ridden_hipster · · Score: 1

      I'll see your Dyncorp, and raise you Dryco. Worry not. Wonder not.

      --
      Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
      www.fogbound.net
    8. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      Better to have one of our congress critters involved. It'll get fixed damn quick then. Otherwise, it'll be just Another Diana.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    9. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      UK companies have a legal duty to minimized health and safety risks to employees and the public which trumps any other laws.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    10. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I wish this "required, by law, to maximise shareholder value" bullshit would die. It's being passed around my retards who try to justify getting screwed over in some bizarre hero worship. CEO and the board have an obligation to promote the success of the company. That is all.

    11. Re:Indeed there must be many ehtical companies ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The board of directors do not have a requirement to "maximise shareholder value."

      This is clearly factually incorrect. Why is parent modded up if it promotes a falsehood?

      eBay v. Newmark: Al Franken Was Right, Corporations Are Legally Required To Maximize Profits

  29. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Gee, that doesn't sound the least bit sociopathic. Do you own the local body shop, or something?

  30. Not everything has to be online by Nitewing98 · · Score: 1

    What this convinces me of, more than ever, is that not everything needs a cpu and not every cpu needs to be online. I can foresee hooking up a cell device to a target car and taking control of it over the internet. Perhaps the folks on the Battlestar Galactica were right to keep some things "old school."

    --

    Nitewing '98

    Everything works...in theory.

    1. Re:Not everything has to be online by hurfy · · Score: 1

      Too true

      My next car is going to only have hardwired phone lines.

      When the car computer overloads take over i can retreat to my backyard full of 70's cars...you guys do the welcoming ;)

  31. Accidents? by LeepII · · Score: 1

    Really hard to believe these remote features were not known by someone. I wonder how many accidents weren't?

  32. Re: Indeed there must be many ehtical companies .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No such law, just a convention. Ignoring it will likely to cost a CEO his/her job however ( or at least a lot in bonuses)

  33. Bluetooth OBD2 Adapter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In general population, there are still a lot of people who don't know where their OBD2 connector is located. With the advent of OBD2 bluetooth adapter, I wonder if this can be done wirelessly as long as the bluetooth is attached. General population won't have to worry because of the effort and techniques required to pull this off, but targeted individuals might need to be more wary.

  34. This has already been done. (On another(?) car.) by tamyrlin · · Score: 3, Interesting
    There is at least one car model where researchers has been able to get access to the CAN bus and do all sorts of shenanigans through the following means:
    • * Specially crafted file on a CD inserted into the CD player
    • * Exploit weakness in the car bluetooth interface
    • * Exploit weakness in built in GSM modem

    For the details, see http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf. (Pretty scary reading. In this case they are also able to disable the brakes and they are also able to engage the brakes on only one of the front wheels for all sorts of "fun"...)

  35. Unsafe design or hoax by gweihir · · Score: 1

    I have no idea whether the this story is true, but for cars in Europe, the rule is that the brakes must always be stronger than the motor, and that applies to both independent hydraulic strands. As long as one is working, you _can_ kill the engine, no matter what gear and no matter how much you are also standing on the gas pedal and even if you are a small (but healthy) person. There have been some incidents reported where people were racing on motorways due to the brakes failing, but they are just folklore, or at the very least incomplete. The last one to do so had a specially modified car due to some disabilities and should have had his driver's license removed before, because he was _not_ capable to drive safely and had demonstrated that before. The one before was just to stupid to really break hard. And it is also always possible to put the transmission into neutral, even if that may involve a reasonable amount of force and ignoring some grinding noises for automatic transmission.

    So either the US has gone stupid on car safety, or this is a hoax.

    Side note: For trucks, this is different. One reason why being allowed to drive them requires additional qualification.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Unsafe design or hoax by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      for cars in Europe, the rule is that the brakes must always be stronger than the motor, and that applies to both independent hydraulic strands

      It's also true of US cars, and probably all cars. But ABS involves valves in the brake lines that stop the flow from the master cylinder to the wheel cylinders (that's how it works). That's under computer control. I suspect this is how they're disabling the brakes.

  36. Michael Hastings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This puts Hasting's death in a new and interesting light...

  37. Re:Not News: They put it into brake service mode. by kwbauer · · Score: 1

    That's all I need to do to replace my brake pads? Thanks for the knowledge. I thought I was going to have to remove the lug nuts and tires and then pull the rotors off and then disassemble the pad/plunger thing and then reverse the whole process. Your way is much quicker and doesn't even involve the expense of purchasing the new pads. Awesome.

    Unfortunately, this is probably only available on the newer cars so I'll have to do my 2001 Yukon the old-fashioned way.

  38. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    Same outcome. These things have been possible for ever yet we don't see some epidemic of them happening.

    Because both of those are trivially detectable by any law enforcement office who observes your vehicle/activity. Sending a bogus radio message from one car to another is not. If thirty seconds ago your car got an "emergency stop" command via radio, all you know is that something within the last thirty seconds was within some unknown range of your vehicle. That could be a car now half a mile down the road ahead of you, a car half a mile down the road the other way, or anyone within an unknown radio range of your car.

    Nobody could tell why all those radar detectors were going off unexpectedly. There were companies selling the transmitters.

    I have a TV-B-Gone. The only limit on using it is my concern that I'll use it in a place with a lot of CCTV and the high level IR output will be caught on camera. Otherwise, it is only because I'm a nice guy that I don't use it more often. That and the problem that the kit has the power wires coming into the board so close together that shorting them accidentally is very likely.

    Even with the easy detectability of some things, like dropping rocks from overpasses, it happens enough that they've had to install fences on some overpasses where it was common, and in some areas they have extra patrols looking for it on nights like Halloween.

  39. Not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't that how they got Michael Hastings?

  40. Re:Not News: They put it into brake service mode. by ChumpusRex2003 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Correct. On this type of hybrid vehicle, there is a regenerative braking system.

    Under normal driving conditions, while the vehicle is in motion, the motor/generator will be used to retard the vehicle. The brake pedal is connected to a electronic pressure sensor, and also mechanically to a hydraulic master cylinder.

    Unlike on conventional vehicles, there is no vacuum powered booster, instead the master cylinder hydraulics are used to operate an electro-hydraulic servo, with electronic override. This way, under emergency braking, you get full hydraulic force applied to the wheel cylinders with minimal pedal effort. The electronic hydraulic control will also apply hydraulic pressure when the vehicle is stationary and the brake pedal depressed, and also periodically applies hydraulic pressure when the vehicle is stopped and the transmission in P (for self-test purposes) and when the vehicle is powered on.

    The hydraulic servo mechanism can be disabled in order to permit brake maintenance (this releases hydraulic pressure in the booster and prevents automatic application of pressure to the wheel cylinders), permitting access to maintain the friction surfaces. It appears that this hack, merely consisted of transmitting the CAN bus command to put the hydraulic servo system into maintenance mode.

    At low speeds, when the electrical regen isn't operative, this will result in the brake pedal travelling further than expected and loss of power assistance. However, with sufficient pedal pressure, it should be possible to slow the car using unboosted pressure.

  41. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by Kielistic · · Score: 1

    Easily detectable like the one car on the road that isn't screeching to a halt?

    Any car-to-car network is going to be an organized mesh network not random blasts of signal. It's pretty easy to log where these commands are coming from for the most part. Sure you can think up some crazy scenario where Lex Luther figures out an anonymous way to alter the system that relies on 100 levels of "what-if"s. But it's just not realistic; real life isn't a bad Hollywood movie (Die Hard wasn't a documentary).

    If hyper advanced random acts of cyber terrorism were actually a concern you would already see it. Why isn't the emergency response system being hacked constantly? It uses radio waves so it has to be vulnerable right? And as soon as something is vulnerable it's already been used for senseless killing right?

    Doing these things would be highly illegal (just like they are now). That's what stops people from doing them currently (that and most people aren't sociopaths). The people that would do this intersected with the people that could do this is so vanishingly small (probably 0) that it's really not a concern. If that set is larger than 0 you can guarantee they would already be getting those results by other means anyway.

  42. Shut off the key and pull the parking brake. by ralphaostrander · · Score: 1

    The worst that can happen is you do a Starsky and Hutch.

  43. 1974 to be sure by hurfy · · Score: 1

    This for NO electronics i think. 1975 - 1980 lots of electronic ignitions

    Our 1980 Phoenix died on an onramp from computer failure :/
    Don't know if computer dependence goes back earlier or not.

    Still probably can't do much but kill the engine until the 90's

    1. Re:1974 to be sure by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Oxygen sensor in conjunction with feedback for emissions controls kicked in shortly after catalytic converters. Computer controlled carbs or some sort of injection by the early 80s.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  44. Oh snap... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This hacker shit is about to get real.

  45. Just wait by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    Wait until someone is hurt or killed from this disclosed vulnerability and these guys are going to be sued into the ground.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  46. DARPA funding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone else concerned about the mention that one of the researchers was DARPA funded? Is the US Military already looknig into this for covert means?

  47. unfathomable by ridgecritter · · Score: 2

    I have not read TFA yet, will do so later, so my apology if I'm in error, but....

    Why the hell are engineers designing, or being allowed to design, a life-critical system like brakes on a car so that the system lacks a direct, non interruptible physical connection between the driver and the brakes? Any mechanism can fail. Putting electronics between the driver and the brakes increases the number of failure modes as well as the probability of failure. State monitoring, fine. Computed intervention that applies the brakes when the car's AI thinks it's necessary, OK. But selling a car that cannot be stopped when the driver mashes the brake pedal? NFW.

    This is simply incompetent engineering. Product liability will attach, as it should.

    Meanwhile, I know what to investigate and what not to buy for my next car.

    1. Re:unfathomable by Rogue974 · · Score: 2

      There is a side you may be missing with instrumentation and controls systems. I don't work on automotive, but I work on industrial controls systems and converting a system from pneumatic (like an old braking system) to electronic (new braking system) in my world dramatically increases equipment reliability. While you do have the extra failure mode of the cars computer, the components of the new system are orders of magnitudes more reliable then the components of the old system. My industrial controls electrical systems mean time between failure when running 24/7/35 is 31+ years. The pneumatic style are maybe 5-10 years mean time between failure. Not sure exactly how this translate to automotive, but in my experience the fly by wire is more reliable. An additional failure mode, but overall more reliable.

      I am not sure if the car manufacturers deal with failure modes that way I do at my plant, things are programmed and designed for fail safe mode. An example would be a stop push button for a piece of equipment. Pushing the button breaks the electrical connection, dropping out the equipment. The button failing, or the wires to the button getting cut, input point on the controls system breaks, etc. takes the exact same action as if you pressed the button. Button no work, equipment no run.

      Planes have been fly by wire for years and were changed due to increased controls systems reliability. Your wrote, "increases the number of failure modes as well as the probability of failure" and while the first half is correct about the increase in failure modes, I highly doubt the increased probability of failure.

    2. Re:unfathomable by Sez+Zero · · Score: 1

      Why the hell are engineers designing, or being allowed to design, a life-critical system like brakes on a car so that the system lacks a direct, non interruptible physical connection between the driver and the brakes?

      To make it safer, with things like ABS, traction control and roll stability. You know, things that keep you from skidding uncontrollably, spinning out or tipping over in your big, tall SUV.

  48. The burning car incident in Fight Club was real by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

    That scenario was based on the Ford Pinto. Ford made a decision that it would be cheaper to pay damages than it would be rework the Pinto design, so it went ahead with the Pinto:

    "But at the time, management's attitude was to get the product out the door as fast as possible. So, Ford did a cost-benefit analysis. To fix the problems would cost an additional $11 per vehicle, and Ford weighed that $11 against the projected injury claims for severe burns, repair-costs claim rate and mortality. The total would have been approximately $113 million (including the engineering, the production delays and the parts for tens of thousands of cars), but damage payouts would cost only about $49 million, according to Ford's math. So the fix was nixed, and the Pinto went into production in September 1970."

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/industry/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks

  49. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by sjames · · Score: 1

    I saw a low tech version. A blue Crown Vic with a blue sheet of paper in a mayonnaise jar on the dash.

  50. Re:Not News: They put it into brake service mode. by sjames · · Score: 1

    It *IS* creepy when unsecured entertainment devices are on the same bus as the OBD. Otherwise it would be more of a feature than a threat.

  51. Tin foil hat speculation by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 1

    It may be that a custom programmed device has been placed in cars to cause the occupants of said vehicle(s) to have a horrible accident. However, in this case it's hard to say that is what caused this accident and death.

    Judging by skid marks made in the intersection just before the accident and the high speed at which the intersection was crossed, a way more likely explanation is possible. The car slammed over the bumps in the intersection so hard, that the rear bottomed out (skid marks visible that comply with this theory), the car suddenly changed direction, launched itself on a fire hydrant, hooked the drive train on it, slid nose-down towards the tree. Once it got to the tree, kinetic energy was still so high that the rear of the car flipped up and the front of the roof actually hit the tree. Due to the massive destruction of the floor pan, fuel tank and area under the hood, gasoline got distributed in large enough quantities to start a fire. It is speculation, but it's most likely that any occupants of the vehicle would have at least been unconscious and very likely deceased before the fire started.

    Witness reports are by far the worst kind of evidence you can get. You'll get a filtered recollection of how people perceived a certain event, laced with opinions and speculations at best. The longer you wait getting the report and the more people they told the story to, the worse the quality of the witness report will be. There are probably plenty of scientific tests that give statistical qualities of witness reports based on if the witness was told to pay attention to a certain event in advance, visibility, age, amount of people in a group and such. If those things have never been studied, I'd say it's well time we get some statistical data on how bad witness reports actually are when it comes to proof.

    Most likely, Hastings was thrashing his car in the middle of the night to get home. He bounced over an intersection, lost the rear due to it bottoming out and found a hydrant and a tree in his way he couldn't avoid any more. Whether he was followed by some government agency or his state of mind because of his interactions with an agency were part of why he was speeding is unknown at this time. Chances that his crash was caused by a manipulation of the programming of his on board computers in the Mercedes are extremely limited. Pulling this off in a car in such a way that you'd be able to selectively only block the rears if someone was over a certain speed is maybe feasible in cars with "break assist" (I doubt it, the main brake cylinder would probably prevent pressure build up if not pressed slightly) and in hybrid cars that turned braking to fully electronic (regenerative braking requires this). Getting this to deploy in such a way and on the exact moment that you can "reliably" crash someone into a hydrant and a tree however, is pure fiction. Chances that your manipulation will not kill or hurt the person you're after when it deploys are so big, that it'd be absolutely useless to put something like this on a car of someone that you'd want to get an accident.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:Tin foil hat speculation by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Family and friends that have been interviewed have 'supposedly' said that his driving was the butt of many a joke due to driving like an old women off to a lawn bowls tournament. I have heard so many stories, rumours, and really kooky stories that I wouldn't know what to believe.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  52. More stupidity by Khyber · · Score: 1

    This is why I'm glad I drive an older car that doesn't rely upon so much electronic crap.

    I don't have to worry about the extra electronic crap failing on top of mechanical failures. I only have to worry about mechanical failures.

    Sheer stupidity all in the name of making everything electronic-controlled, and 'accessible.'

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  53. Lawsuit in Waiting by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Designing a system where code can completely disable the big red STOP panic button (in the case of a brake pedal) is reckless to the point of being worthy of multimillion settlements and charges of manslaughter placed upon the heads of the designers.

  54. Wrong by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    I just can't see myself ever trusting a car in which a computer failure could kill the emergency brake entirely, and in which there's no way to apply more force on the emergency brake in the event of an actual emergency.

    They are not Emergency Brakes. I'm not sure they ever were, officially. You could plow through (heh) every domestic and imported car owners' manual going back to the sixties and likely never find that phrase.

    What you will find is the phrase Parking Brake, as that is their sole design and function: to hold a parked vehicle in place as relying on a rather tiny pin or prawl inside an automatic transmission to hold tons of weight in place is a bit silly.

    Even attempting to use a Parking Brake during an Emergency will rarely result in anything but an unintended 'Rockford' manuever.

    1. Re:Wrong by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Even attempting to use a Parking Brake during an Emergency will rarely result in anything but an unintended 'Rockford' manuever.

      Correct. But if your main brakes are nonfunctional, it may be your only option, and it is a better option than continuing to drive a vehicle at ever-accelerating speeds down a hill.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  55. Re:Not News: They put it into brake service mode. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not really sure if you're trying to be funny or if you're just an asshole.

  56. Old Hacks - Why not cut the brakes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, bull-shit these are new. They're new to the reporter.

    These guys are legit, but the coverage is all fearmongering - this included. You need a tether, at present, and a deep understanding of vehicle networks to effect any sort of real impact. In most vehicles, safety-critical networks aren't connected to wireless / telematics systems, and those parameters are kept at a minimum under seed/key lock. Is it possible to do? Sure. It's been done for years! But, there are easier ways to disable the brakes, especially since this requires physical access anyway. Their own post on the talk they'll be giving alludes to this.

    Color me unimpressed, and frankly, pissed at the media for giving this so much attention. My qualifications? A Master's degree on the topic (and a Bachelors on the same).

    Want to see the positive side of things? Check out MIT's open standard "Cloud Think" and how we can use CANBus intelligently with CarKnow's app platform (www.carknow.me). Not everything needs to be locked down all the time.

  57. You people have zero imagination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If one can find a OBD II bluetooth dongle on Amazon in 5 seconds, and for less than ten dollars, how trivial is it to make a similar cellular device?

    Most OBD II ports have covers on them. A potential victim would never notice it.

    1. Re:You people have zero imagination by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      If you took a minute to look at the $10 obdII dongles history you would see that they are bootlegs of an old version. I bought the cheap version too.

      The version that includes updated code (for a few models) and an amortized share of the engineering cost is $100.

      Best bet for cell would be a USB version of the OBDII dongle and a smartphone. Remove the OBD connector and tuck the whole mess out of sight. Hook up a phone charger as part of the circuit.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  58. Re:And the NTSB wants cars to talk to each other?? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    Easily detectable like the one car on the road that isn't screeching to a halt?

    One car? I'd say more than half of the people didn't have radar detectors, so less than half the cars within a mile or so had their detectors go off. Of that less than half, many (if not most) weren't speeding so had no need to slam on the brakes to avoid being detected speeding. So no, there wouldn't be just one car not screeching to a halt. Nobody even once screeched to a halt, even, in all the times I did this. So, of all the cars that didn't screech to a halt, which one is the one with the radar transmitter?

    If you're talking about someone sending another car a "stop now" command, why would any other car not involved "screech to a halt"? You wouldn't want all cars "screeching to a halt" because that would create a huge pileup. (Imagine, this network has reached half-saturation so half the cars were participating, half weren't. All of a sudden, half of all traffic going both ways for a mile's worth of interstate slams on the brakes. Chaos and death. So, no, there will not be a blanket "everyone stop right now" command, unless the designers of the system are total morons, and indeed, psychopaths.)

    You could easily send such a command from the opposite direction lanes, and there would be nobody screeching to a halt over there. So, not easily detectable.

    Any car-to-car network is going to be an organized mesh network not random blasts of signal.

    Any car-to-car mesh is going to have nodes joining and dropping out on a regular basis. The black-hat node joins up just like any other member. Wait a few minutes, BLAM. Not "random blasts of signal", a valid looking command from an existing member of the mesh.

    It's pretty easy to log where these commands are coming from for the most part.

    We're talking about a hacker being able to create "stop now" commands using an unauthenticated network with no control over who connects and who they are. Sure, log to your heart's content. Nothing says that the log entry you have that says "VIN number 2903j3f8230u21j21 transmitted an emergency stop message to VIN number 229jfg20u2029" has a valid source address.

    Or do you trust the MAC address spoofers who take over someone else's paid transient WIFI session, too?

    If hyper advanced random acts of cyber terrorism were actually a concern you would already see it.

    Why yes, clearly, bogus messages in a car-to-car mesh network that has functions that cause vehicles to stop aren't a concern because we aren't seeing such messages happen already. No, it can't be that they aren't happening today because we don't have the underlying network today, it must be because they won't happen when we do.

    Doing these things would be highly illegal (just like they are now).

    I'm so glad that people won't do it because it would be highly illegal but almost impossible to catch.

    That's what stops people from doing them currently (that and most people aren't sociopaths).

    "Most people aren't sociopaths" is what stops MOST people from doing bad things today. It clearly does not stop ALL people from doing bad things, because bad things happen. What stops people from issuing bogus emergency messages in a car-to-car mesh net is that the net doesn't exist. What stops them from putting up bogus reader-board announcements? Or announcing zombie apocalypses over the EAS network? Security that will be hard to implement in a car-to-car mesh that needs to allow arbitrary users to send emergency messages.

    The people that would do this intersected with the people that could do this is so vanishingly small (probably 0) that it's really not a concern.

    Two words: script kiddies. Create a one hundred million node potential network with obvious and immediate feedback and they will come to play.

  59. I heart my '92 Civic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll buy my next car once they work out the security in networked autos.

  60. Whaaaa? by Zynder · · Score: 1

    I don't even know what you are talking about but I just had to do a double take because what I see is a 5 digit UID named hipster........I guess you were posting to /. before it was cool. Tip of the hat to you sir!

  61. No real brakes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are the brakes not connected to any sort of physical mechanism? They should be power assisted, not totally dependent on power to work.

  62. Has nobody mentioned the built in Firewall? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every car has a firewall between the engine compartment and the passenger cabin. One or two lines of code, and Problem Solved.