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Building a Full-Auto Gauss Gun

Okian Warrior writes "Adding to the 3-D printed gun/rifle controversy, Delta-V Engineering built a Full-auto Gauss gun (aka 'machine gun'), capable of firing 15 steel bolts from its magazine in less than two seconds. At 3% the muzzle energy of a .22, it's still in the prototype stage. Bullets are made from turned-down nails, and the gun uses no chemical propellants. The builder has posted the design notes online. Video of the gun in action is pretty interesting."

44 of 285 comments (clear)

  1. Sensationalist summary at all? by tocsy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Adding to the 3-D printed gun/rifle controversy"

    How? Neither the Hack A Day article nor the design notes mention "3d" or "printing," and the fact that it's a gauss gun implies that metal is pretty central to the design... which can't be 3d printed at this point in time.

    1. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Interesting

      actually there are metal 3d printers. they are just not as common and generally not what many are speaking of when talking 3d printers at this point in time. I just did a quick google search and found this one fvor example http://www.3dsystems.com/3d-printers/production/spro-125-direct-metal

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    2. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by bmk67 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not only that, but this isn't even legally a "gun" under U.S. law.

    3. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      "Adding to the 3-D printed gun/rifle controversy"

      How? Neither the Hack A Day article nor the design notes mention "3d" or "printing," and the fact that it's a gauss gun implies that metal is pretty central to the design... which can't be 3d printed at this point in time.

      It's doubly sensationalist because Gauss guns (and railguns, though this isn't one) are both technologies beset by the 'If I had a source of nearly-unlimited current with a rise time of ~0, and a supply of superconducting magnets (or, for railguns, unobtanium rails with heroic resistance to welding/resistive heating damage), I could totally fuck you up!' problem.

      If you handwave the electrical issues, magnetic accelerators are all kinds of scary. If you don't, you'd be lucky to cram the power supply for anything actually dangerous into a single support vehicle...

    4. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why would you think that?
      You can make a fully automatic submachine gun of the open bolt design out of stuff you can find at home depot.

    5. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by g0bshiTe · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes because in WWII they didn't have the technology to make something as simple as a Sten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten

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    6. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      You should just admit you were wrong.
      Stens are one example of an open bolt automatic that are easy to build and do not require precise moving parts.

    7. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      The printers are dear but there's a few fablabs around where you can have your design printed in metal, at a reasonable cost.

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    8. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      sterns work just fine for warfare. it's a crude design but works. of course you can't go on shooting 1000+ rounds in one go but with few guns can you do that anyways, barrel will go bust before the rounds popping in the magazine.

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    9. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      http://thehomegunsmith.com/pdf/BSP-SMG_Book.pdf

      Machining can be done with a file, this is largely how Khyber pass guns are made.

      Give it up already.

    10. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by Medievalist · · Score: 2

      3d metal printing on demand was invented at roughly the same time as plastic printing, in the mid-1980s. I think the first ones were sintering, but now there's several other methods. Go look at wikipedia.

      But anyway 3d metal printing has been available to the unwashed masses for quite a while now. It's not cheap, but it's easily done if you've got the simoleons.

      Shapeways was offering stainless steel printing with 21 days lead time at $10 per cubic centimeter to pretty much anybody by 2009, and nowadays you can even get titanium printed objects without any major effort. Don't bother building a printer, just email your design files and a valid credit card number to one of the vendors.

    11. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      It is not a rifle, as it lacks rifling. It is not a firearm under US law.

    12. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      "3D printed guns" is just a bunch of media gathering hype and bullshit.

      With the most rudimentary tools, people have been able to produce firearms much more serviceable than these dangerous plastic devices. People have been making AKs using not much more than a hot fire and a couple smooth stones for almost 50 years. Simple blowback operated machine guns similar to the WWII Sten can be made in a garage with scrap metal, a dremel, and a piece of rusty pipe, or 'bangsticks'.

      It's not difficult and requires very little skill or resources; blueprints are easily found online for those who can't figure it out on their own. This arguably easier than the 13-shots-before-blowing-up 3D printed guns which cost thousands in resources and require a great deal of knowledge.

      If people are scared of 3D printed guns, it's because they either don't understand the limited implications, or they're just reactionary idiots. 3D printed plastic guns were never meant as anything more than a political statement.

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    13. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      What criteria does it not meet for being a firearm?

      (3) The term “firearm” means
      (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
      (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
      (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
      (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

      That's from USC 921. There are many similar definitions in US law; some are even so as restrictive to be inclusive of propelled air or mechanically propelled weapons (eg. BB guns and slingshots).

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    14. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by jxander · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You know that. I know that. Does Fox news know that? Do they care?

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    15. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by bmk67 · · Score: 4, Informative

      "expel a projectile by the action of an explosive"

      That part.

    16. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by bmk67 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Read more carefully. There is far more law that goes into the definition than what is presented here as well.

      A) It does not meet this definition.
      B) Must be a part of A) - does not meet this definition, either.
      C) Isn't a muffler or silencer (which are defined elsewhere) - doesn't meet this definition as well.
      D) "Destructive device" is also defined elsewhere, and no, this does not apply.

      This isn't a firearm under federal law any more than an air gun is.

    17. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by vux984 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but when using this device, a bullet, from a loaded cartridge, gets propelled down a barrel by action of the explosive powders in the cartridge.

      No. It does not.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

      A series of magnets propels a projectile.
      There is no explosive powder. There is no explosion.

    18. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not really.

      Closed bolt machineguns require fairly precise contrivancnces to make the firing pin strike at the right time during the cycle of function. This includes most Automatic Rifles and Submachineguns that must have select fire capability (semi, burst, full. for example). In some cases, precise headspace is a factor also (how close the bolt face is to the breach when the firing happens), or the machinegun must have a variable headspace. The M2 .50 cal has variable headspace AND timing. Semi autos aren't just fully autos with something to stop them for this reason.

      If an M16 (or M4) was allowed to go full auto without a "disconnector", the hammer would be allowed to fall too early in the cycle. Best case would be failure to fire (cartridge not fully seated on bolt face yet), worst case would be an out-of-battery detonation with hot brass fragments flying out the ejection port.

      Open bolt machineguns, (M60, M249, M240, et al) are more like as you describe. The operating parts (including the bolt) would be more than happy to run away until the belt ran out if it weren't for that damn sear holding them back. Open bolt machineguns are not to be fired semi-automatically. Even purposely single-shooting them (unless only loading single rounds) wears down the sear and can lead to a runaway gun.

    19. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      The navy likes them because space is at a premium on a large warship, but with a nuclear power plant energy is not nearly as scarce. If your ammunition is 20% propellant, then a rail gun will let you carry 25% more ammunition for the same space, and that lets you engage in combat for longer between resupply runs.

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    20. Re:Sensationalist summary at all? by chrysrobyn · · Score: 2

      Actually the whole gauss gun idea makes no sense.

      I think it makes lots of sense. It's pretty clearly functional and simple, and it runs off the definition of a linear motor. In fact, there are some places that will assume "projectile" when you specify "linear motor" instead of slower speed ideas (like a MagLev).

      Take an electric motor attach a say 100mm diameter spinning frame put you bullet on one side with a counter balance on the other side spin it up to 2000 revolutions per minute and you achieve 628m/s when you release the bullet.

      Did you build one of those yourself to satisfy your own curiosity? If not, then I don't think you have any business stating that a coil gun makes no sense. When someone explores your idea and discovers a 10cm flywheel that's counterbalanced until the moment of release, what kinds of problems are they likely to encounter at the moment of release? 2000 rpms sounds pretty reasonable in terms of my car engine, but I might get nervous about that close to my face. How noisy is a 2000 rpm flywheel that is centripetally loaded? How much energy is involved in that strategy? How long is the initial spin-up?

      Personally, I think the coil gun ideas are far more simple to understand and instead of mitigating drawbacks at every step, he's shooting aluminum cans and glass jars and a laptop he apparently has a great deal of animosity toward.

  2. 3% velocity by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Informative

    okay, a .22 averages around 1,120 f/s. 3% of that is 33.6 feet per second. That translates to around 23 MPH. Yes, I can see how this highly dangerous weapon might add to the controversy of 3D printed guns. It is only slightly slower than an olympic sprinter running at full tilt.

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    1. Re:3% velocity by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you RTFA, you'll find that the muzzle energy is 3% of that of a .22, not the velocity. The velocity is about 40m/s, or about 90MPH.

    2. Re:3% velocity by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Physics?

      You need a ridiculous amount of current, you need coils with a near instant rise time and you need switches that flip instantly. Good luck.

    3. Re:3% velocity by bmk67 · · Score: 2

      Precisely!!!11! Won't you think of the nail-flinging children?

    4. Re:3% velocity by Ardyvee · · Score: 4, Informative

      Neither, considering that the article mentions 3% muzzle energy of an .22 LR which is different than the muzzle velocity. Proof: this picture here

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    5. Re:3% velocity by internerdj · · Score: 2

      As if the internet didn't have enough ways to go blind.

    6. Re:3% velocity by pruss · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The muzzle velocity is 40 m/s according to the article, i.e., 131 ft/sec or 89 mi/h. I wouldn't want to be hit with that.

      The 3% figure refers to the kinetic energy, and perhaps reflects a less massive projectile than the .22 shoots.

    7. Re:3% velocity by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      Probably just that this is a friggen PROTOTYPE (FTS), indicating that they WILL build a deadly version of this. Shit, who the fuck doesn't understand how "progress" works?

      I'm pretty sure our first ICBM prototype wasn't a water-pump model with a warhead on the top of it.

      Apples and oranges - an ICBM is based on long existing and well-vetted technology rocket-based weapons technology; it's more akin to the not-yet-existing "deadly version" mentioned by OP than the prototype. Even the "first ICBM prototype" was based on pretty well known, time tested stuff.

      You'd be more accurate if you compared this prototype to, say, Goddard's rockets from the early 20th Century.

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    8. Re:3% velocity by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      So, you can't think of a solution, so it must be impossible.

      Great logic there.

      Super-caps (And undefined marketing term, yes, I know) are getting more common. Someone could grab one of them out of a Mazda 6 (or order the spare part, no, I don't have a parts list with pricing) and charge it up off residential current, and get a few shots (20-30?) out of a charge. That's off-the-shelf technology today.

    9. Re:3% velocity by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      Even so, a sharp projectile hitting your at 23MPH still isn't something to laugh at as the grandparent attempts to do.

    10. Re:3% velocity by suutar · · Score: 2

      The subject of the comment is wrong. The 3% figure is for muzzle _energy_, not muzzle _velocity_.

    11. Re:3% velocity by operagost · · Score: 2

      Better to fire Usain Bolt. Then you can tell the ATF that it's a Bolt-action weapon.

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    12. Re:3% velocity by sootman · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to Wikipedia, a BB gun has about 18% of the muzzle energy of a .22. And this thing is 1/6 the strength of that. We're getting down to Lego territory.

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  3. 3D printing controversy? by Feyshtey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Saying that this contributes to the "3-D printed gun/rifle controversy" is a falacy. This weapon has limited components associated with 3D printing. The majority of the device appears to be machined aluminum. Not to mention the large about of electronics and power technology incorporated in the design. This has about as much to do with the "3-D printed gun/rifle controversy" as it does the "electrical engineering controversy".

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    1. Re:3D printing controversy? by jxander · · Score: 2

      Fires at ~90 MPH. Unlikely to outrun. Also unlikely to be lethal, but c'est la vie. Just a prototype.

      Probably less damage than baseball (same speed, less mass). Potential for more damage though, on penetration. Is there an official damage conversion chart : Piercing vs Bludgeoning? D&D maybe.

      Either way, piercing unlikely. No rifle-spin to maintain trajectory. Still would rather not get shot with.

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  4. Re:Lots of Power by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

    This kind of gauss weapon is not new. The big limitation is power.

    If you're the U.S. Navy, with a nuclear power plant aboard your aircraft carrier, a railgun is easy to power:
    http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,160195,00.html

    A rifle? Catch Doc Brown next time he stops over in 2013. Maybe he has an extra Mr. Fusion to spare.
    If you throw that in a backpack, maybe you can power your handheld rifle for a few shots.

    Couldn't BFC's (Big Fucking Capacitors) be used to store charges? Like the kind you would get from a car stereo dealer?

    Can anyone explain why they would/wouldn't work? I'm fairly newbish when it comes to the intricacies of electronics, and trying my best to develop a healthy understanding.

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  5. It highlights some of the legal issues by bugnuts · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the US, it is legal to make a gun. A real gun that fires real bullets (one at a time).
    But it is illegal to sell it, unless you're a firearms manufacturer.

    Most people don't realize this, and is the heart of the 3D printed gun "controversy". The only reason it's a controversy is that most people don't know this. The ATF isn't very concerned, because the 3D printed guns will not really change the amount of guns in circulation... they're a one-off and will not last for generations, unlike a real gun.

    I don't believe a gauss gun qualifies as a firearm. Thus, the laws against fully-automatic firearms (or firearms at all) don't apply, and is more akin to a BB gun, paint pellet, or airsoft gun. But this gauss gun has the potential of actually firing lethal rounds because it's not limited to the speed of expanding gases, which I find interesting.

  6. Re:NFA? by EmperorArthur · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes it is.

    For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

            Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger

            The frame or receiver of any such weapon

            Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or

            Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."

    This clearly falls under the the first point.

    Ehh, who needs mod points.

    By that definition, then nerf and airsoft machine guns are illegal. Clearly you're missing something. Either that, or the US laws really are that bad, and the only reason why everyone is not in jail is because of selective enforcement.

    For those who don't realize it, selective enforcement means the government and police can throw anyone they dislike in jail. It's a major enabler of tyranny.

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  7. Post is ignorant by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 2

    The big problem with this post is that it misses the entire point of the problem. You can make Gauss guns with ease, they work, and they fire things at high enough velocities to destroy hardened armored targets. That is not a challenge, the problem is making them last more than a few shots before they self-destruct.

    This story was all about a low velocity gun that can fire more than 10 bolts at low speed. Again not a big deal. The problem is that they are using low power (relatively) to do this and it lasts a "long" time. When you up the power to useful level, it rips the rails us, oxidizes/burns them, warps them from heat, and all the other problems that are real engineers are struggling with.

    In essence the OP says that they can avoid all the consequences by avoiding the useful effects of the device. Great, how can this not be considered a step forward! I can make a 500MPG car that doesn't actually move very fast and isn't large enough to carry a can of beer much less a person, is that too a massive advance in tech? Idiots.

  8. Re:Smaller projectiles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    From "The Maths" section of the builder's website:

    "The most frequent comment I get on my coilguns is that I should use a lighter projectile to improve performance. This equations [sic] shows why that suggestion is wrong. It’s counter-intuitive, but for a fixed power and distance (e.g. fixed capacitor bank and coil), a lighter projectile will gain less muzzle energy than a heavier one."

  9. You're ignorant by ShooterNeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The drawbacks you mention apply to rail guns, not Gaus guns. Gaus guns have serious problems of their own (most of the prototype designs aren't powerful enough, the only design I've read about that would probably have truly useful velocities requires superconducting magnets. If you read the wiki article, apparently there's serious problems with iron projectiles.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

    http://www.askmar.com/Massdrivers/Superconducting%20Quenchgun.pdf

    On Page 6 it has an interesting table of the actual mass and physical dimensions of the accelerator. Note that muzzle energies far greater than proposed for the Navy's railgun project are possible (the smallest one is 1820 megajoule's, the navy wants a 64 megajoule railgun) but also notice the huge size and bulk of the launcher : 147 meters long.

    But there's no arcing problem, and the proposed design is supposed to be reusable.

  10. Wives by arthurpaliden · · Score: 5, Funny

    Walking behind me as I watched the video and all she said was "No.".

  11. Re:hi by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

    It's very helpful that Slashdot has put little coloured Facebook / Twitter / G+ icons next to spammers. It makes it much easier to ignore their posts...

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