Microsoft: Xbox One Won't Require Kinect To Function

UnknowingFool writes "Microsoft has reversed course on another aspect of the Xbox One. Though Xbox One will come bundled with a Kinect sensor, the console will work without it. Critics were had suggested that an always-on video and audio sensor could be used to spy on users. Microsoft's Marc Whitten said, 'Games use Kinect in a variety of amazing ways from adding voice to control your squad mates to adding lean and other simple controls beyond the controller to full immersive gameplay. That said, like online, the console will still function if Kinect isn't plugged in, although you won't be able to use any feature or experience that explicitly uses the sensor.' This is the latest reversal from Microsoft since they killed the phone-home DRM and made it region-free."

Comments

Rock and a hard place

[SniperJoe]

Is it me or does it seem like Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place now? They've spent months telling us about how the Kinect was mandatory and that it would be used by all their games moving forward! Now developers are going to have to acknowledge that it is optional and that a substantial portion of the population won't use it. Furthermore, people are going to ask, if it's optional, why are you forcing me to buy it?

For every one of these u-turns they make (after touting the features that these things apparently relied on), they just seem more and more boxed in.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[war4peace]

I think a substantial portion of the population WILL still use it. Microsoft's stance change solely means they want to turn off the most vocal naysayers, that's all there is to it.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[rwven]

I think developers, knowing that players will at least have the hardware, will be free to make Kinect required for their specific games. I'm imagining some kind of art on game cases to specify this, like there was for the 360.

The fact is, most games/developers weren't going to use that rubbish anyway. That kind of control simply isn't the future because people don't WANT to play games and use interfaces that way. It's FAR more of a hassle to wave your hands around than it is to just push a button or move a control stick. If it was 100% reliable like handheld controllers are it'd be one thing, but the kinect as it stands has like a 40% success rate at actually understanding what you're trying to get it to do.

Re: Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

It wont be too hard on developers. All they need to do is add a "Connect your Kinnect to play this game."

Everyone will have one, so it wont be optional if they want to play your game.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Penguinisto]

Simple answer, really...

They'll see if they can slip all that DRM and restriction back in once enough customers have bought one. They'll claim that piracy is massive, and that they had to take drastic steps, etc.

Sort of like how Sony popped in that little update on the PS3 that killed OtherOS, but this time with an excuse that the common folk will rationalize.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to go with your neckbeard gets in the way of the sensor's accuracy, works fine for me with a little bit of adjusting.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[UnknowingFool]

I think part of the problem of MS was the doublespeak that they used and unwillingness to admit that they were implementing features users did not like. For example, gamers wanted to know if there was an offline mode. MS responded that the Xbox One did not require a "persistent" Internet connection but the device had to phone home once a day .

Gamers wanted to know if used games could be played. After a long and confusing answer about how the new console would allow you to trade in your games at retailers, MS admitted that the game developers could limit that ability and that you could share/sell only under certain situations.

This last concern with the always on and required status of the Kinect module had MS trying to allay fears by saying that you could turn off the console. But they didn't mention that turning "off" the console did not turn off the module. An "off" console could be turned on by speaking "Xbox on" which means the Kinect module was always on.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

My whole issue with the Kinect always on wasn't necessarily the idea of being spied on, although I'm not a fan of that thought. My issue was, however the fact that if it comes on every time you turn your console on it uses the motor inside to crank it up and then to track you around your room then it's going to wear the motor out more quickly. Microsoft is already well known for making hardware that breaks, so I see it as a way for them to sell more Kinect units as the motors in them begin to die. This is why the Kinect on my 360 was only plugged in when I needed to use it for a game.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Moheeheeko]

Which is exactly why Microsoft isnt getting a sale from me. You dont forgive the abusive boyfriend just because he promises to stop beating you.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think it's a big deal for developers. I doubt anyone made the kinect features mandatory for gameplay (Unless it's a kinect centric game of course)

I think it is a smart move by Microsoft, but not because of consumer displeasure. Microsoft needs to be able to sell a lower tier product to appeal to more customers and the kinect is expensive to manufacture. I saw a BOM breakdown that pretty much said the kinect module is more expensive to make than the new xbox itself.

I have a feeling they'll offer a kinect-less lower tier product for a lower price point, maybe sometime after launch if not at launch. Offering the kinect bundle as the high tier product seems entirely reasonable.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[cbhacking]

I like how you're perfectly aware of the exactly one time in console history that something like what you describe happened, and you're also aware of who did it... and presumably also therefore aware of the backlash they took over it, right down to having the root trust of their console's security ripped apart by irate hackers looking to reverse the restrictions.

And yet, you think that the next company to try it will be a *competitor* of the only one to have done it so far? The company who benefited massively from Sony's colossal blunder? Microsoft may have underestimated the backlash against their initial plans, but they know full well what the consequences would be if they retroactively returned to them. Yet, apparently you think that they're already planning to do it, despite the obvious consequences they would face?

What the hell would make you assume that? Does logic just not exist where you're from?

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Electrawn]

Quite simply, the main feature Microsoft has been touting to advertisers is the ability to detect who is in the room and target ads accordingly. The gold mine is not in Kinect for games, its for the TV/Video/Music/Netflix/Hulu consumption and the "big data" of being to tell that there is a 30-35 white male (recognized and tracked via Bing), 30-35 white female (Not logged in but we know her profile), and another 25-30 female guest that we have an 90% confidence is person Y who has a bing account. Lets target Ad X, Y and not Z.

MS will put Nielsen to shame with all that mineable data. There will be still be people who leave the MS eye on all the time, at least now you have the option to unplug it.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[interkin3tic]

It's just you. The kinect is going to be bundled. Developers know everyone will have it and can turn it on if they feel like it.

If you're trying to decide whether to make kinect part of your game, whether or not everyone has it does matter. Whether they have it on does not. If you have a game idea that requires it, make them turn it on. Better yet, make it optional if it's actually something that the game benefits from.

The always on thing seemed like it was just for MS's benefit. So you could limit the number of people watching digital media, a very intrusive form of DRM. And MS was probably hoping that by making it required, everyone would get used to it and want it instead of a PS4 or wii.

Whatever the motivation, it was idiotic, and I don't see how it affects developers.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Sique]

I guess, one of the reasons to kill the used game block feature was the thread from the E.U. legislation that actually forbid the blocking of software resales. Microsoft had to either enable unlimited resales in the E.U. or face stiff penalties up to being blocked to sell the Xbox at all.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. If overweight games wanted to actually move they'd play real sports.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Mitreya]

unwillingness to admit that they were implementing features users did not like.

That's because with MS Office or Windows they never have to! They are too used to having users suck it up and deal with whatever unwanted features happened (or whatever wanted features did not happen).

Actually having to deal with customer demands is a relatively new experience for Microsoft.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[DragonTHC]

The current model kinect doesn't require that motor to function. Only for initial tracking. You can point the camera yourself.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[gl4ss]

I don't know any hardcore gamers who use kinect with any kinect enhanced games. using it to control squaddies or stuff like that.

heck, I don't even know anyone who use it for sports games or dance games either. the only places I've seen it even hooked up are in shops and the local MS office(and I know more than 3 people with 360). I don't know _anyone_ who has had the "FUCK YEAH THIS IS THE FUTURE! YES YES YES!" mentality about playing with kinect or controlling anything with it.

anyways... they had to do this to sell xbox one's - this or provide a blanket to wrap it in. because the facts are a) it has a camera and a microphone and b) they can't say no to USA gov. and c) USA gov has shown the will to hijack things like it if they feel like it.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[steelfood]

Is it me or does it seem like Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place now?

No.

Microsoft is still shipping the console with Kinect. And games that require the Kinect will still ask you to turn it on.

All this does is allow you to turn it off when the rest of the unit is off. This means you lose certain gesture-based functionality (like turning the unit on with a gesture), but that's about it.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[war4peace]

Can't you just... turn it off when not playing it? I mean the whole thing, not just the Kinect.
I don't and won't own any gaming console anytime soon, that's why I'm asking.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the system has to be on in at least some low power state that it can check you own the games you bought.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Jmc23]

What? And have to walk to turn it on?

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree; they will use it. We have three of the XBox 360 - one for our daughter at college, one for our son, and the older large white one that is hooked up to our main TV mostly for when we have guests and play rock band. We have one Kinnect. We tried it out with the game it came with and gave it a "meh". However, just yesterday at dinner my son was interested in something - Splinter Cell 5 maybe - that was going to have Kinnect support in the game. He thought it might be interesting to use. I am sure many people will use it once the games use it for more than things that make you go "meh".

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Talderas]

Microsoft is setting themselves up to be able to offer an XBox One console without the Kinect for $399-$449 rather than the bundled version for $499. This lets them compete better against the PS4's $399 pricing. The problem, of course, was that Microsoft was selling the platform to developers on the premise that everyone would have a kinect to get better buy in.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[tlhIngan]

Is it me or does it seem like Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place now? They've spent months telling us about how the Kinect was mandatory and that it would be used by all their games moving forward! Now developers are going to have to acknowledge that it is optional and that a substantial portion of the population won't use it. Furthermore, people are going to ask, if it's optional, why are you forcing me to buy it?

  For every one of these u-turns they make (after touting the features that these things apparently relied on), they just seem more and more boxed in.

This one isn't really a boxing in.

Developers code for Kinect like they always do. It's just that instead of getting the body data they get, well, they get nothing. So you code for Kinect, and if the gamer has it connected (face it - most people don't care and will leave it plugged in) then you get the voice recognition and gesture recognition data you need. Else, you don't and you play as always.

By forcing everyone to have a sensor, developers know that everyone has a sensor and they can add those features to the game. And yes, every game can be "enhanced" if not "controlled by" Kinect.

By enhanced, it still requires the controller, but you can do things easier. Perhaps in a team-based FPS, you use hand signals - well, you can simply gesture them with Kinect, or use some elaborate menu system to pick it out from a menu (or more likely, you won't be able to gesture it and have to communicate some other way). Or how Forza looks at your head movements to control where you look - if you don't have Kinect, no problem, you see the default view. If you have it great it works.

The only real change here is that you can unplug it if you feel you can't tolerate the spying.

So Xbox devs do what they always do - assume Kinect is there. If it isn't, they'll probably get some sensible default data that doesn't change. And voice recognition simply won't work - the game doesn't get the commands at all. Effectively, the game sees motionless, mute people without Kinect.

Of course, if the game requires Kinect or you need to make gestures, well, plug it in. I suspect the "Kinect less" mode won't be well tested since devs know everyone has a Kinect, but it's not always connected.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[war4peace]

Oh my, never thought of that :)

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Russ1642]

There were rumours that MS won a secret NSA contract a couple years ago... hey wait just a minute!

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Compared to Sony, MS is doing a great job. Yes, they pissed customers off. But they responded essentially immediately and addressed basically every concern that most customers had. All of this before the system was even launched.

Back in PS3 day, when it was unveiled and getting tons of flak (overpriced, blue ray unecessary, copycat controller (Wii was getting great publicity over motion controllers so they stuck some gyroscopes in their, renamed it Sixaxis, and tried to pass it off as revolutionary), limited launch library), Sony did next to nothing to curb the criticism. If anything, they exaggerated it over the next few years (removal of other os, removal of backward compatibility on later models).

XB1 price does still seem too high though, so I'm still thinking PS4 will end up winning out (at least initially).

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, the least energy path wins. Why wave hands or shout when much faster, more reliable and super convenient function - the button press is already in place.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[cdrudge]

The gold mine is not in Kinect for games, its for the TV/Video/Music/Netflix/Hulu consumption...

Which is exactly the reason why Microsoft developed Windows Media Center and gave it away for free to everyone in Windows 7, then made it a (now paid) add on in Windows 8, and faces a very uncertain future. All because it's such a huge gold mine. Or not.

The whole HTPC area is such a mishmash of different technologies, interfaces, buggy codecs that work 100% properly with this video but not with that one. Encrypted QAM makes it harder/more expensive to get cable TV working, and if it does often it's copy once so you can only watch it back on the same TV that recorded it. All the content producers want their cake and to eat it too so limited availability on Netflix/Hulu/Amazon/whatever and if it is available, you may still have to watch commercials even if you paid extra for the subscription.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Blakey Rat]

I use my current Xbox hooked up to my computer monitor. I sit about 3' away from a 27" monitor. How could a Kinect possibly function in that environment?

I'm glad Microsoft has reversed course on this.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is exactly why Microsoft isnt getting a sale from me. You dont forgive the abusive boyfriend just because he promises to stop beating you.

so, then you are not gaming on Sony or Apple either then, Wii only?

Re:Rock and a hard place

[TheRealMindChild]

The point is moot because IRI and AC Neilson sell their database to anyone that will pay. That is their business. MS MAY sell RESULTS of data analysis to a consumer, but it isn't in the business of selling databases

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell would make you assume that?

What was that old saying? Embrace, Extend, Extinguish? Same basic idea to what Sony did.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a substantial portion of the population WILL still use it. Microsoft's stance change solely means they want to turn off the most vocal naysayers, that's all there is to it.

They sold 70 million world wide. Over half of those are replacements machines, and there's a rather large number of double owners that have one for Live, and another for pirate games. The world has over 6 billion people, you're probably an insulated citizen in the USA, so we're looking at 20-30 million active machines out of a population across the planet, a decent number are in the US and UK. Let's say most are in the US, that's 15-20 million out of 300 million. Not even 10%. Even a zealot xbot can't claim that is a substantion portion of the population when that's 8 years of sales over the XBone that doesn't exist.

tl;dr: you are talking shit.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

I make it a habit of not hanging out with hard core gamers, they take the fun out of gaming.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[CronoCloud]

Yes, the "Stop Having Fun Guys", they've ruined more games than I can count. They're very vocal and because developers are lazy bums they only read/listen to what they say....like with Minecraft, because it's easier that way.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Jumunquo]

He didn't get fired. He was offered a lot of money to be CEO of Zynga, then the Zynga stock immediately went up. I wonder how long before they realize what a huge mistake they've made.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[CronoCloud]

(Wii was getting great publicity over motion controllers so they stuck some gyroscopes in their, renamed it Sixaxis, and tried to pass it off as revolutionary),

You do know that the PS2 had motion controls before the Wii, right? PS2 Eyetoy? You remember Richard Marks "Magic Duel" at SIGGRAPH 2001?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PtoxKDcCXc

So yes, Sony did do something before Nintendo did.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Wookact]

Because Sony got away with it. Once one of them gets away with it, the others feel free to jump on the boat.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[cbhacking]

Media Center was actually developed for XP (though only available there as an OEM install) and was included with several editions of Vista as well. Its hardly new to Win7 (you didn't outright say that, but you did imply it).

Not that this damags your point in any way, I just wanted to make it clear that WMC wasn't a "flash in the pan" sort of thing that was developed and quickly dropped - it's now about a decade old and has been on four different major Windows releases.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[twotailakitsune]

All the games may still make it mandatory. Just you don't need kinect to turn on the xbox.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[cybertears]

FUD. Microsoft removed the always on-line aspect. The only time an internet connection is required is during the initial setup. You can then completely disconnect it from the internet. Without an always on connection, there is no way for them to validate your game ownership. The system remains in a low power state so that it can respond to the initial voice command to turn it on.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[cybertears]

Gamers are the worst thing that has happened to gaming.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[exomondo]

Now developers are going to have to acknowledge that it is optional and that a substantial portion of the population won't use it.

They'll use it if they want to play a game that requires it.

Furthermore, people are going to ask, if it's optional, why are you forcing me to buy it?

If all you want to play is kinect games then a controller is optional but you still have to buy that, same deal with an optical drive.

For every one of these u-turns they make (after touting the features that these things apparently relied on), they just seem more and more boxed in.

Seems more like they're listening to complaints and reacting to them. Would you prefer it if companies just took a hardline stance and ignore all complaints?

Re:Rock and a hard place

[J-1000]

I think developers, knowing that players will at least have the hardware, will be free to make Kinect required for their specific games.

BUT most games are ported between platforms. So gone is this notion of "it will always be there". It won't.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

What was that old saying? Embrace, Extend, Extinguish?

yeah from nearly 2 decades ago, it doesnt even make sense in this context, what they hell are they embracing then extending then extinguishing? you dont even know what it means, you just like saying it. but assuming you apply such standards to all companies i have to wonder what products you actually do use.

Same basic idea to what Sony did.

Irrational hatred trumps reading comprehension I see:
"and presumably also therefore aware of the backlash they took over it, right down to having the root trust of their console's security ripped apart by irate hackers looking to reverse the restrictions."

Re:Rock and a hard place

[exomondo]

So yes, Sony did do something before Nintendo did.

Because as a gamer and customer that is really important to me.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[gl4ss]

I make it a habit of not hanging out with hard core gamers, they take the fun out of gaming.

for the record, I referred to as hardcore gamers guys who buy both consoles and just play a lot of games. these are not the dudes who run their gaming sessions with excel "to be the best"(in excel). these hc gamers are just dudes who just happen to play practically all the so called AAA titles.. and they don't give a shit about kinect. so people who are the main market are not playing with it, neither are their casual gaming gf's. nobody cares about it and it doesn't make gaming awesome.. we've yet to see if it can make tv controlling awesome but I really doubt that, might just as well buy a tv remote without any markings on it, see how well that goes with the casual tv watching crowd.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't really apply logic to the actions of any of the console manufacturers. WiiU is a flop, Xbone is a train wreck, and the PS4 is only praised for not fucking up.

Did you miss all the updates the 360 received over it's tenure? Many added features, but most increased restrictions, closed loopholes, and offline ban-flagged consoles so that when they went back online they were instantly banned. Many updates actually removed features such as Facebook, Twitter, and Netflix Party mode. Granted they may have been sparsely used, but it comes down to the argument of who owns the right to define how the consumer uses legally purchased hardware and what rights the user has to modify said hardware if it's operating code is copyrighted by someone else.

Singling out the PS3 as if it were "exactly one time in console history" that a vendor changed the capabilities of a system is at best dishonest and at worst a feeble attempt to make the PS4 look less appealing while doing nothing to improve the standing of the Xbone. With all three consoles failing spectacularly, the clear winner for next-gen is Steam.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[VortexCortex]

I've experimented with developing games and applications for the Kinect. I currently have three watching everything I do all the time, even watching me while I sleep, and feeding the data into a network of neural networks... On Linux. See, I wouldn't trust that crap to do this on MS platforms. I gave up developing for the 360+Kinect because the play area was just too stupidly large to be practical in just about anywhere. Most folks who own consoles don't have them in a room that's got 10 to 15 feet of empty space in front of the TV. On Linux I can get the data directly form the device and do my own calibration -- Or just apply self calibrating, self learning algorithms.

I see many awesome applications enabled by cheap 3D sensors, but you have to TRUST where that data is going, and I want it kept in-house. Eg: Screw games. How about a smart home with a private cloud and Google Now like features where YOU control all the data. "aEye, where are my Keys?"

"Keys last identified by Sound at Dining Room Table." You know you want one.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Qwade79]

The only real change here is that you can unplug it if you feel you can't tolerate the spying.

Unfortunately you have erred on the side of the user and interpreted the "Won't Require Kinect To Function" to be "I can disconnect it" instead of "We'll say it's mostly disabled in software except for the IR scanning part". I present to you this gem from TFA:

You have the ability to completely turn the sensor off in your settings. When in this mode, the sensor is not collecting any information. Any functionality that relies on voice, video, gesture, or more won't work. We still support using it for IR blasting in this mode. (emphasis mine)

Re:Rock and a hard place

[war4peace]

No, sir, YOU are an idiot. You have no reading comprehension whatsoever.

"it" means "kinect attached to the Xbox One".

"a substantial portion of the population" implies "who will buy the XBox one" - be it 10 people, 1000 or a billion.

And I don't live in the USA anyway.

(yes, I promised myself to not answer ACs but you, sir, are a gem - in the bad sense)

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Lies. There will NEVER be a dude gaming with two chicks watching.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[luther349]

does it matter the entire console junk dryed up this gen. and the next gen does not look any better.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me quote HAL9000

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Clsid]

You nailed it right in the head. I also do not know anyone that think Kinect was a other than a gimmick, and smae goes for PS Move while we are at it. I think the Wii was the truly innovative design and everybody wanted to do a quick copy afterwards, but even the Wii with its crappy non-HD graphics ended up being a gimmick after a couple of months.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[N1AK]

Is it me or does it seem like Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place now?

Not really. Microsoft know that 90%+ people who buy an Xbox One and thus have paid and received a Kinect unit will plug it in and use it. If the vast majority of users are using it then developers will make decisions accordingly. The question is why Microsoft didn't take this position in the first place? They get what they want with much less ammo for critics to accuse them of spying on people.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[N1AK]

I don't know any hardcore gamers who use kinect with any kinect enhanced games. using it to control squaddies or stuff like that.

I've tried out voice command in games (via headset not Kinect) and I think it adds something when well implemented. Limitations on voice recognition and AI understanding have been the main limitations to me. If I could say something like "show me the nearest AT weapon", "zoom my map out", "where is flag" etc and get decent visual prompts then it'd be very useful for me; currently the commands are normally pretty pointless (things I could do better with my controller) or not reliable (it either won't know what I am saying, or knows the words but they aren't the specific keywords it is programmed to use).

Re:Rock and a hard place

[nosferatu1001]

Actually up to fines of 10% of their worldwide revenue.

Banning the xboxone would be small change compared to that.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Same basic idea to what Sony did.

Irrational hatred trumps reading comprehension [slashdot.org] I see:

So you really don't see the similarity between someone buying a PS3, becoming "committed" to the Playstation brand, and having Sony "force" an unwanted change on you, and Microsoft taking something, changing it, and then once you've become dependent on Microsoft's version, them forcing unwanted changes on you?

Your fanboi-ness really shines through.

Re: Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sega Dreameye had it first, kind of...

Re:Rock and a hard place

[rwven]

Leave my neckbeard out of this!

Neckbeards have feelings too.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[DiEx-15]

It is like this:

It is probably a sure bet that some big dollar game developers told Microsoft exactly how much they were unhappy with this. When these game developers told Microsoft the magic words "We won't release our games on this console if you release it like this", that was the exact moment they decided to back-peddle on these features. It is one thing to make gamers mad because to Microsoft they are just peon peasants of no significant worth. It is quite another to make developers mad because they make the games that attract the worthless peons to the console and these companies give big money to publish on the console.

So I don't believe for a minute that Microsoft was listening to gamers. They were listening to the big dollar developers and the potential threat of losing them.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[minstrelmike]

Which is exactly why Microsoft isnt getting a sale from me. You dont forgive the abusive boyfriend just because he promises to stop beating you.

What if he sweet talks you with promises of kewl games in the future and exciting new graphical jewels? It has happened before.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

Same guy responding...

My post was about the public perception at the time. I'm not claiming that either company is more original than the other (more broadly, the notion of a company having personality traits is kind of bizarre on the face of it), but I am saying that the market perception at the time was that Sony was copying Nintendo.

And yes, I did know that the PS2 had motion controls (actually I quite enjoyed the eyetoy). And I knew that the Nintendo had power gloves and motion controlled mats back in the NES days, and Microsoft had Sidewinder joysticks with magic magnets in them, and Logitech had tilty controllers with gyroscopes in them, yadda yadda yadda. Hell, I knew a guy who hooked up his Gamecube to a standing fitness bike and mapped the accelerate button to the pedaling of the pedals (so he could play Mario Kart as an exercise game). Plenty of people have been playing with motion controls for a lot longer than PS2. But Nintendo really banked on the motion controls thing and tried to make a console out of it. Whether it was a good idea is up to personal preference, but it was definitely influential and at the time was considered original.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Anonymous Coward]

damn I just wasted 10 minutes typing up a reply to his post, but your 12 word reply captured the entire point so much better :)

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Mister_Stoopid]

No, that's not what this decision is at all. 100% of XBONE owners will still have a Kinect, and if you invest your money in making a game that uses kinect in an innovative, fun way you can be sure that 100% of the XBOX market will be able to potentially buy your game. There is literally no downside to this change, unless you're an NSA goon who was hoping to turn on random people's kinect cameras when people thought they were "disabled".

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Mister_Stoopid]

They'll still have DRM, just not phone-home DRM. It took a fucking long time for PS3 piracy to get off the ground; even now it's pretty hard to successfully play a pirated game; and PS3 had no net-based DRM at all.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Mister_Stoopid]

From the same article:

Speaking with IGN last week, Whitten revealed that "like online, the console will still function if Kinect isn't plugged in, although you won't be able to use any feature or experience that explicitly uses the sensor."

That's pretty clear. It seems to be stating that you can actually unplug it, and that text you're quoting is probably describing the separate ability to turn it off in software.

Re:Rock and a hard place

[Qwade79]

I stand corrected - I clicked through on the first article link and not the second. If this is actually true it might bring the XB One back onto the list of potential purchases.

Still not the biggest market problem

[fiordhraoi]

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad MS has reversed course on all those items. They were bad decisions for the consumer. Ultimately though, it's coming in at a $500 price point. That's going to be it's single biggest hurdle when it's put on shelves (physical or virtual) next to its competitors.

Wait until the first patch

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft will come up with some reason to re-reverse and require the Kinect to phone home and inform Big Brother whether you're actually watching the ads shown before your movies. You know -- so they can help the MPAA provide "better" unskippable movie previews.

Re:Wait until the first patch

[Mister_Stoopid]

That's why you wait at least a year to buy any new console. Well, it's one reason. You also wait so you don't pay five hundred fucking dollars.

Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[Opportunist]

Will it still not require always-on and Kinect-connected after a year? I'll wait to see.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[cbhacking]

You know, there's only one major console vendor that's ever pulled a stunt like that.

Hint: it's not Microsoft. And the backlash was huge.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[kannibal_klown]

I take it you mean Sony, though I don't recall which scenario you meant in particular since they'd done a lot of garbage in the past.

I'm kind of torn. Sony has done some insanely bad things to the consumers over the years with rootkits and what-not.

The PS4 looks like an interesting piece of hardware, but I'm kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop and we find out that Sony is going to require or incorporate something insane with the unit. The only thing pushing back is they're seeing the backlash with Microsoft and don't want any of "that" coming their way.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[TheP4st]

I take it you mean Sony, though I don't recall which scenario you meant in particular since they'd done a lot of garbage in the past.

cbhacking probably refer to the removal of the PS3 feature otherOS that were disabled with a firmware update.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[Anonymous Coward]

and honestly, the "backlash" was a small ripple on the edge of the kiddy pool. It was only "huge" if you where sitting in a linux-geek-echo-chamber.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[cbhacking]

Removal of PS2 backward compatibility, and of OtherOS, yes.

Furthermore, that led (slightly indirectly) to PS3 games "needing" their own DRM, because a bunch of irate hackers who flet they should be able to use the features they paid for went and tore the console's so-called security a new one. Getting the ability to run pirated or "hacked" games was just a by-product of, and far easier to achieve than, getting the ability to run Linux back. However, it led to a massive uptick of game piracy cheating in online games, so developers (or at least publishers) started locking down games with PC-game-like DRM instead of relying on the console to take care of blocking such things, as it had done before.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[Anonymous Coward]

So huge, in fact, so much backlash OVERFLOWED and went into the "meh" values.

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[Mister_Stoopid]

And the backlash was huge on reddit and slashdot, but almost completely non-existent among the general console game market.

Fixed This For You

Re:Ok, so it won't. At launch, that is.

[Anonymous Coward]

The removal of PS2 compatibility was done on a hardware revision, not through firmware update.

Microsoft...

[tuo42]

Some more 180 and they might stand a chance in some skateboarding or snowboarding contest.



"Achievement unlocked: 3x180 in just two months"

Re:Microsoft...

[tuo42]

By the way: they COULD call it the XBox720 soon ;)

Re:Microsoft...

[Vanderhoth]

That probably would be in their better interest. Seeing as the most common thing I've heard it called is the XBone, which isn't a misspelling just an awkward short form. I'm surprised their marketing department did think about that.

Re:Microsoft...

[Russ1642]

They don't want to use 720 because people think it's a worse number than 1080. I am serious. They look at all the connotations of a number and the number 720, especially when it comes to games, is not good.

Re:Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

By the way: they COULD call it the XBox720 soon ;)

More like the xbox 180

Re:Microsoft...

[donaldm]

By the way: they COULD call it the XBox720 soon ;)

I see what you have done here but you would have been better to have called it the XBone180 or XBox-one+179 or better yet the XBox 540 :)

That was my last concern

[sorensenbill]

I know everyone on here is going to be paranoid about a Sony style patch reversing all this but I don't buy that. I will however now be buying an Xbox One and look forward to ignoring all the stupid cable TV features that they seem to think are the main buying point. #Games

Re:That was my last concern

[cbhacking]

You always (well, since the always-on was dropped) could have disconnected the sensor when not gaming. The difference is now that you can disconnect it even when gaming, if the game doesn't need it. A small change, in my opinion, but still a good one.

Re:That was my last concern

[badboy_tw2002]

I don't know why people would disconnect it while not gaming. Voice controls for video playback are one of the greatest things ever. There's been so many times I've shamed my cable box for making me find the remote. "Stupid cable box, why can't you be more like your brother xbox! He _always_ listens to me."

Re:That was my last concern

[vux984]

I will however now be buying an Xbox One and look forward to ignoring all the stupid cable TV features that they seem to think are the main buying point. #Games

I won't be.

The new Wii is worth looking at if you want Mario/Zelda/Metroid. The tablet controller is pretty nice, and the console overall isn't bad. It suffers from a lack of games still but its getting better. The backwards compatibility makes it a good buy if you skipped the last Wii. But if you aren't into the Nintendo first party stuff the WiiU is probably not worth it to you.

But the Xbox, I don't get it. I hooked up an HTPC last generation and I haven't looked back. I added wireless xbox controllers along with wireless keyboard/mouse/trackpads, and i picked up an ir receiver for 20 bucks so I can use it with my harmony one remote too.

The hardware costs about the same - you can spend more if you want, but you don't have to. And the games are cheaper (a LOT cheaper), with a much wider selection. There is no subscription per gamer (would cost me another $100/year). The storage capacity is an order of magnitude better, most of my games are HumbleBundle, GOG, and Steam so there's no disc juggling. Steam big screen mode in particular for games that support it is as good as a console. Never mind keyboard and mouse for FPS / RTS when I want it.

Plus I've got access to far more mods. Not to mention emulators for some of the classics.

And when I'm not at home, I can play pretty much my entire library on my laptop too. Or on my desktop pc. Huge wins there.

And when I'm not playing games its a full on PC, so torrents, VLC, Netflix, youtube, hulu, firefox (with adblock), etc.

What do I get from xbox (or ps4) for that matter that comes even close? A couple exclusives that really aren't -that- novel. And perhaps better server matchmaking, and integration of voice etc. (Although steam's got that pretty well taken care of too -- pc gaming in general has gotten, for better or for worse, a LOT more console-like over the last generation.)

Re:That was my last concern

[DdJ]

I hooked up an HTPC last generation and I haven't looked back.

That's fine if that's what you want.

Myself, I hate gaming on a PC. I use 'em for work and other hobbyist uses, and have since around 1980; I want my gaming device to be an appliance (that displays on my TV set and uses a gamepad instead of keyboard/mouse). Mega bonus points if it's a platform supported by GameFly.

(YMMV, of course. But that's what I want.)

(I'm still not getting the XboxOne, mind, nor the PS4. I'm considering the WiiU, and have already purchased an Ouya.)

Re:That was my last concern

[DdJ]

It wasn't my last concern. My concerns were:

* I do not want an always-on internet requirement.
* Game loans or rentals must work without any "speedbumps".
* I will not accept an always-on Kinect.
* I demand a reasonable amount of backwards compatibility.

They've addressed three of my four. They've now gotten me to the point where if I were given one as a gift, I'd probably unbox it and plug it in rather than immediately ebaying it. That's no small change.

If they add backwards compatibility that's at least as good as what the 360 had, I'll preorder.

If they add backwards compatibility for at least the "Indie" games (which are built on top of XNA/CLR and should be trivial for them to support), I'll at least consider buying a unit after they're in peoples' hands and I've been able to read fair reviews.

(Backwards compatibility with Original Xbox titles, which ran on an x86 CPU and thus should be easier to support than 360 titles, may also get me to that point.)

Re:That was my last concern

[vux984]

I want my gaming device to be an appliance (that displays on my TV set and uses a gamepad instead of keyboard/mouse)

Which is pretty much what a PC with steam big picture mode and an xbox controller is.

Mega bonus points if it's a platform supported by GameFly.

"Sorry, rental and subscription services are available in the U.S only. " So Gamefly's pretty much worthless to me, but I can see it being worth something to others. Its going to be worth increasingly less though as the publishers are actively undermining the ability to rent through tying games to accounts, single-use DLC, etc.

I've never been one to rent games though; I used to buy them used at steep discounts pretty regularly. But I stopped when all the local video rental places went under.

How do you like the Ouya? I can't see getting one myself, since I think I've already got access to everything in its library via the PC, but it is a neat concept.

Re:That was my last concern

[vux984]

You say that now. You already realize that the xbox is technically able to send everything it hears AND sees out to the internet, and worse that its on 24x7 even when the unit is 'off'.

So the only thing separating an xbox from the screens of 1984 is trusting Microsoft and the government not to do it.

Then there is the side issue of it being hacked. Remember, you have an always on camera and microphone hooked up to the internet in whatever room you have this in / or that it can 'see into'. You have a small 700 sqft condo with the TV at one end in the living room... the kinect can everything but the bedroom and the bathroom. Or maybe your daughter has an xbox one in her room?

There is an undeniable potential for truly horrific levels of abuse.

Question:
Who would voluntarily setup a camera and microphone in their house, turn it on 24x7, hook it up to the internet, enabling it to transmitting to parties not under their control, who one may or may not trust, with unknown encryption if any at all.

Answer:
People who can't remember where they put the remote control.

Re:That was my last concern

[badboy_tw2002]

Its more likely that someone hacks your xbox to make it catch fire. That's what I'd call horrific abuse.

Re:That was my last concern

[DdJ]

How do you like the Ouya?

Mostly, I like it as a dirt cheap Android set-top box that I can hack on. I haven't really spent time with their game marketplace yet.

Re:That was my last concern

[cbhacking]

The 360's CPU is still pretty powerful, by modern standards. Emulating PPC isn't *too* hard, but going from what, eight hardware threads at 4GHz x64 to six hardware threads at 3.2GHz PPC... that's not going to be easy.

Totally agreed on the XNA games, though. Last I checked they were still waffling on that one. Original Xbox would be relatively easy (don't forget the need to emulate the old GPU too; unlike the CPU that's not just a matter of taking one piece of the current GPU and under-clocking it. Console games are built very exactly to their target hardware), but they may think the market just isn't big enough to be worth it.

Re:That was my last concern

[drinkypoo]

How do you like the Ouya? I can't see getting one myself, since I think I've already got access to everything in its library via the PC, but it is a neat concept.

It is a cheap little piece of nasty kit in a much nicer case than the competition. You may as well wait for this holiday season and buy MOJO. It's coming from Mad Catz so it will also probably be a cheap little piece of nasty kit, but it will have a newer processor with a more credible GPU. It will also be designed to be controller-agnostic.

Doesn't matter ...

[gstoddart]

Sorry Microsoft, but it just doesn't matter any more.

You've told us where you'd like to go with this, you've as much as told us you don't give a shit about what it is that we want.

So, as much as I like my XBox 360 -- I won't be replacing it. Certainly not with this thing which is more about what Microsoft wants than what is good for consumers.

My XBox 360 got banished from a network connection when I started seeing ads in the home screen and in the games -- and as much as you keep trying to back pedal, the damage is done, and I am not interested in your shiny new toy.

Maybe if you hadn't acted like such arrogant assholes who said "this is what we're making, deal with it", consumers wouldn't be saying "well, we're not buying it, deal with it".

Instead, I can say quite heartily ... not buying it, don't care, and go pound sand.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[mjr167]

you've as much as told us you don't give a shit about what it is that we want.

Then why do they keep removing all the heinous features everyone complains about?

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[girlintraining]

Maybe if you hadn't acted like such arrogant assholes who said "this is what we're making, deal with it", consumers wouldn't be saying "well, we're not buying it, deal with it".

DING! Now, mind you, Sony didn't exactly win any friends by cutting out 'Other OS' from the Playstation 3, and most console manufacturers want to move in this direction. Microsoft was just the first to fall on the ceremonial sword. It's not so much that they tried this (and ate an enraged internet in response), it's the terrible PR response after that piqued my interest.

Leaked memos detailing how to spin it, several high-level managers saying they weren't turning back, insisting that the features under fire were "integral" to the XBone, and the list goes on... all of this was just really poor management. It pretty much proved to me that even if they did (and I knew they would) backpedal, they'd only do it for as long as it took for their sales figures to come up and then they'd ninja it back in.

This should be a case study handed out to everyone taking a business major on how not to do it. They have handed the PS4 their own head, served in the traditional fashion, because their own management was stubborn and resistant to public opinion. At the very least, they should have said "Based on customer feedback, we are re-evaluating our position," and then had a media blackout while they rounded the wagons and figured out what they wanted to do. The fact that it took this long, and is so far off people's radar that emotion has solidified and public opinion is now weighted in lead... well... they're fucked.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[cbhacking]

If it's all about what MS wants, and they don't care about what the "consumer" wants (I really prefer the term "customer", but whatever)...

Then why did they reverse all those anti-consumer policies? That's not the action of somebody who doesn't care. They did not, in fact, say "this is what we're making, deal with it." I mean, that's quite self-evident, because that's *not* what they're making!

Here, let me make it more plain to you: what could they have done to *more clearly* have listened to people's reaction to their original plans? I'm really curious. Short of a literal design-by-public-opinion, which would never be practical for something this big, I mean. (This may shock you, but there are people who were actually excited about the original plans, because always-on connection means multiple people can play online games on the same account in one household - something even Steam can't do.)

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[The Moof]

Then why do they keep removing all the heinous features everyone complains about?

They were very stubborn in their defense of the heinous features... until pre-orders opened up for both consoles. The PS4 was trouncing the X1, which likely was their "oh shit" moment. Since then, they've been slowly rolling back the features. I think it's too late to recoup the lost pre-order sales, but may save some face for sales down the road.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[gstoddart]

They did not, in fact, say "this is what we're making, deal with it."

Yes, they did in fact. They quite vocally said words to the effect of it had to be that way, was going to be that way, and it was far too late to change and we should just suck it up and deal with it. You can believe they never said that, but anybody who has been following the news on this knows otherwise.

This may shock you, but there are people who were actually excited about the original plans, because always-on connection means multiple people can play online games on the same account in one household

It doesn't shock me at all -- but since it was functionality I didn't want and I found their insistence on always-on internet and daily phone-home wasn't something I couldn't live with, they helped me make up my mind about the product. Just maybe not how they'd hoped.

That doesn't mean any amount of them trying to back-pedal and change their mind means I've forgotten and arrogance and douchyness they displayed when this first came out. Because I don't believe they won't just try to sneak this in down the road.

I can live without a new game console. And they can live without me as a customer. In fact, I'm not giving them much choice in the matter -- the best I'll do is buy a spare XBox 360 and never connect it to the network either. If Microsoft is still losing money on the console, that strategy will hurt them more than it will me.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why do they keep removing all the heinous features everyone complains about?

The people who respond with perpetual hatred seem to be unable to see that Microsoft is currently in a slow and awkward purge of the "Steve Jobs style" authoritarians in their own middle and upper-middle management structure. You see the same trend with the various levels of rage against Win 8 (which I will not buy for a PC). Or maybe I have an advantage in noticing it because I actually read the Win8 developer reports and the debates in the comments.
Anyway, Microsoft is using the old tactic of "ok, we'll try it your way, and when it fails, you fail with it" to destroy the political power of the know-it-all idiots in their ranks. Yes, it will cost them, but not nearly as much over time as having those failures in more decision meetings would cost them. While I won't buy an Xbox of this generation (as I hadn't bought the prior or the original), you can expect slow sales at first (people still enraged from the old announcements) but staying steady longer than usual as the rage slowly fades in the face of reality as the angry mob sees the product in real life.

Before anyone argues about the poor sales figures of 8, yes, the dismal UI isn't fixed yet, maybe in 8.2 but probably not until whatever they'll call 9. The politics are more ruthless with hardware products (even if the conflict is over the patchable software on the hardware) than software. Also, the support cycle for windows versions is still longer than twice the typical OS release cycle, so the idiot-managers involved in that will have some weak excuses until the reports come in that Vista is selling better at the end of its support life than 8 is (sadly, that might take until April 2017 in a worst-case scenario).

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[HeckRuler]

This, exactly.

Imagine you're looking to go on a cruise. You shop around for a cruise ship to go on. It'll cost a pretty penny and there are ships of various sizes and quality. And then there's this crazy captain that, while his ship is new and shiny, openly states that all passengers will be shackled, chained to an oar, and sold to the highest bidder once they reach port. Upon hearing the lament of the crowd, and hardly anyone signing up, he has a change of heart: No shackles, no chains. So come on, we're all looking for a good time here. I've turned over a new leaf. Trust me. I don't REALLY want to brutally dominate your every waking moment. It was just a silly idea I was floating out there. Hey! If you don't like chains, I don't like chains. Not that I'm saying the chains were a bad idea. I still think you'd really like them. But for now there will be no chains on my ship.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[neminem]

Heh. All you need to do is replace "cruise ship" with "air travel", and that would basically describe RyanAir with hardly any exaggeration or metaphor. :D

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Lendrick]

This seems to be the pattern that the leader of the previous console generation follows (with a few exceptions).

By the end of its generation, the SNES had taken the lead, so Nintendo shoved a bunch of bad decisions down everyones' throats with the N64 (cartridge games, anyone?), and they lost to the PSX. Sony managed not to bork up the PS2, but the hubris had caught up to them with the PS3 and they priced it so high that it hurt their sales and propelled XBox 360 into the lead. Now Microsoft apparently thought they were invincible and pulled the same crap with the Xbone, and they're already hurting because of it. It's safe to say that the PS4 will be the leader of this generation, at least at the outset. Fortunes can eventually change, but right now Microsoft has squandered their goodwill with gamers.

Part of it is that corporate "brand recognition" mindset. Brand loyalty is bullshit. If you make products that people want, people will buy them. Start making products that people *don't* want, and people will go elsewhere. Brand loyalty may keep people from looking at other products if they're satisfied with yours, but if won't keep people satisfied with your product if you suddenly start churning out turds.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Zalbik]

Leaked memos detailing how to spin it, several high-level managers saying they weren't turning back, insisting that the features under fire were "integral" to the XBone, and the list goes on...

I've been following the Xbox one train-wreck pretty closely for a while now, but I don't remember any leaked memo's regarding how to spin "features", or indicating they weren't going back.....do you have links?

I've found this whole thing an awesome example of poor market research. It seems that Balmer so desperately wants to be the next Jobs that he's forcing a very specific vision of how the product should be down his team's throat. The problem is that whereas Jobs was consistently able to lay golden eggs, Balmer only has the consistent ability to push out turds.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[girlintraining]

I've been following the Xbox one train-wreck pretty closely for a while now, but I don't remember any leaked memo's regarding how to spin "features", or indicating they weren't going back.....do you have links?

I, uhh, take it you that your internet connection to everything but Slashdot failed right before you posted this? Because otherwise, googling for "xbox leaked memo" might give you the answer. You can even push the "I'm feeling lucky" button. In fact, you'll have to dig in a few pages into the results before you find anything but the details of the leaked memo.

Anyway, hope your internet gets fixed soon.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[lgw]

Yes, they did in fact. They quite vocally said words to the effect of it had to be that way, was going to be that way, and it was far too late to change and we should just suck it up and deal with it.

The person who said that was fired, right? That's pretty darn responsive for a major corporation.

That doesn't mean any amount of them trying to back-pedal and change their mind means I've forgotten and arrogance and douchyness they displayed when this first came out. Because I don't believe they won't just try to sneak this in down the road.

Well, if they're purging the people who made those decisions, then you can be as sure as you ever can with a major corporation. That's a pretty strong indicator that their plans have changed. So far they at least have a better reputation than Sony in this regard.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Zalbik]

I, uhh, take it you that your internet connection to everything but Slashdot failed right before you posted this? Because otherwise, googling for "xbox leaked memo" might give you the answer.

Ha ha...funny. Yes, I searched. The only memo I could find (on the first 5 pages) regarded the policy change over the required persistent internet connection. Your original claim was:

it's the terrible PR response after that piqued my interest.

Leaked memos detailing how to spin it, several high-level managers saying they weren't turning back, insisting that the features under fire were "integral" to the XBone, and the list goes on...

And I could find none of it. Nothing on "how to spin it", nothing regarding "several high level managers saying they weren't turning back", or "insisting that the features were integral to the platform". Just what looked like a design change based on consumer response.

Heck, the only text I can find reported on is as follows:
""Durango [the codename for the next Xbox] is designed to deliver the future of entertainment while engineered to be tolerant of today's Internet." It continues, "There are a number of scenarios that our users expect to work without an Internet connection, and those should 'just work' regardless of their current connection status. Those include, but are not limited to: playing a Blu-ray disc, watching live TV, and yes playing a single player game."

I fail to see how this is a controversial PR response.

It looks like Balmer and the gang had decided (without any market research), that requiring a persistent internet connection was a Good Thing (TM) that would be welcomed with open arms.

After the backlash, more sensible minds prevailed and the memo needed to be sent out.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Don Mattrick say something to the effect of "If you do not have constant internet connection, we still offer a product for you. It's called the Xbox 360"? Isn't that an example of "this is what we're making, deal with it."? I'll grant you that they're fixing them and Don Mattrick no longer works for Microsoft. However, this doesn't mean that they suddenly fixed all the bad PR.

The parent post is stating that the PR burn alienated a segment of customers in a really bad way. Microsoft had announced the Xbox One prior to E3 and received plenty of feedback. They ignored it all the way to E3. They let Don Mattrick say stupid shit. They didn't manage their public information well and caused a bad response. AFTER the dismal pre-orders, they finally decided to care. That's a REALLY long time of acting like somebody who doesn't care.

Here, let me make it more plain to you: they burned a segment of their customer base and let the PR become a disaster. They let it continue for weeks after E3. Even my 65 year old neighbor who knows nothing about video games heard about the anti-consumer policies. Fixing stuff after the fact doesn't negate all the bad. Do people forgive Sony after the rootkits and the removal of OtherOS? No, a lot of people don't. Just like how people aren't forgiving Microsoft for being so obstinate when there were plenty of signs leading up to E3.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[drinkypoo]

I am going to presume just for a second, for the purpose of this discussion, that your commentary here implies that you otherwise would have purchased the new Xbox? Does this mean you're going to be buying the PS4, or are you also eschewing that platform on the basis that Sony has also demonstrated aptly that they are backstabbing assmonkeys? And if your answer is some variation upon the latter, may I inquire as to what you will be using for gaming?

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Before anyone argues about the poor sales figures of 8, yes, the dismal UI isn't fixed yet, maybe in 8.2 but probably not until whatever they'll call 9.

For a site that claims to be for nerds and geeks this place really is full of institutionalized, unthinking drones that bitch and moan because they can't function without at "Start Menu"! This site used to have discussions on replacing the entire explorer shell with things like litestep yet now the idea of installing a start menu application is derided.

On my Windows 8 system I log in, press enter and never see metro again. Apparently *that* is just too hard for the modern slashdotter, as is all this secureboot hoo-ha, god forbid you might have to enter the scary and obfuscated land of BIOS settings and flick a switch...no there is virtually endless bitching and whining about how hard that is.

To make it worse you have these lawyer-types spreading FUD about how you shouldn't hack your device because you might void the warranty, or if you hack your device it will be a DMCA violation and feds will come and kick down your door for putting linux on your ipod. Frankly it is getting *pathetic*. These are people that can't do, so instead they complain and try to justify their inability to do anything constructive or creative by claiming they are in fear of reprisal!

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[exomondo]

Yes, they did in fact. They quite vocally said words to the effect of it had to be that way, was going to be that way, and it was far too late to change and we should just suck it up and deal with it.

They? You mean one guy said something to that effect which created an enormous backlash and he isn't even with the company anymore.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, not to mention I only reboot my machine about once every two weeks if that much. I can't remember the last time I had to futz around with a Metro tile.

Re:Doesn't matter ...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and propelled XBox 360 into the lead

According to Wikipedia The Wii is still ahead of XBox 360 and PS3 by 20 million units and PS3 and XBox 360 are virtually tied.

sneaky sneaky

[slashmydots]

Just because it isn't "required" doesn't mean it won't spy on you while the console is off (or on). Considering it's build directly in, that actually doesn't mean anything. It will boot up or play a game without recognizing a person? You still have to tape over it then. And "not requiring" is still quite different than "we're not spying on you with it."

Re:sneaky sneaky

[afidel]

Nope, another announcement in an interview yesterday said you'll be able to physically disconnect it so if you're really paranoid that they're watching you then just unplug the thing.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, its a separate piece of equipment that now doesn't have to be plugged in. How exactly will something that isn't on, isn't getting power, isn't "built in" as Sony fanboys keep trying to claim, going to spy on you? The idiocy on here never ceases to amaze

Re:sneaky sneaky

[spire3661]

Dont dismiss it as paranoid. Its not paranoia when you KNOW someone is collecting that data.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't required to be plugged into the XBox One anymore, as stated in the article.

Quoted from the article:
"It turns out that the Xbox One will run perfectly fine even if Kinect isn't, well, connected to it, according to chief Xbox One platform architect Marc Whitten."

Re:sneaky sneaky

[rsborg]

Nope, another announcement in an interview yesterday said you'll be able to physically disconnect it so if you're really paranoid that they're watching you then just unplug the thing.

It must suck to work in the XBox decision when marketing/PR mishandles this kind of information perfectly - I mean, WTF couldn't they have thought this through before spouting their mouths?

Perhaps it's because the real customers are the NSA and you are the product. Yes, you will pay to be a product as well - even sadder.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[Anonymous Coward]

*sigh* Great. We get the one time since the invention of tinfoil that the tinfoil hat brigade were even vaguely kinda-sorta right about something, and now we're going to hear about it until the goddamned end of time. We could fast-forward 5,000 years, all the governments, civilizations, and cultures involved will be long dead and nearly forgotten, but you'll still have these few twitchy assholes saying they "KNOW" someone is spying on them because of what happened in America so long ago.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[bmk67]

Always remember, Mr. AC.... ...shiny side out.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who has been paying attention to the revelations leaked in the past month and a half:

Humbly shut the fuck up.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay, nice dismissal. Learning from current events is a waste of time, amirite?

Re:sneaky sneaky

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure they are. Also from your front-facing cell camera. And your laptop camera. And traffic lights. And security cams.

Re:sneaky sneaky

[cbhacking]

Out of curiosity, what PC/phone/tablet do you have? Does it have a camera on it? Does it have a microphone on it? Does it have a permanent Internet connection? Do you completely disconnect it from power when not using it?

How do you know it's not spying on you?

Do you have any idea what a paranoid idiot you sound like? If the NSA wants to spy on people through consumer electronics, they don't need people to buy a new $500 device that hasn't even been released yet to do it. Even if it wasn't built into your iPad or Android phone or Thinkpad laptop or whatever when you bought it, they could have slipped it into a software/firmware update years ago. Being paranoid about the Xbox's Kinect sensor, when posting to a US-company-owned site hosted on the public Internet by servers located in the USA, under a signed in account no less... how? How does that even *vaguely* make sense? Hell, we *know* there's spyware out there that uses the camera on your computer or tablet, without even showing an activity light. Why aren't you freaking out about that? Unlike the XbOne, it's actually something that's already happening!

Critics were had suggested

[codepigeon]

Seriously? I hate being one of those gramar nazi's, but....does anyone even proof read these submissions?

Re:Critics were had suggested

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect someone did and confirmed that the galley proofs matched the edited manuscript :^)

Re:Critics were had suggested

[SeaFox]

Seriously? I hate being one of those gramar nazi's, but....does anyone even proof read these submissions?

Moreso than you do.

Try this:

Seriously? I hate being one of those Grammar Nazis. But, does anyone even proofread these submissions?

Free advertising

[Bolloney]

Can we please stop posting news stories every time Microsoft announces some planned 'change' for their products? Can we not see that this is the cheapest method of advertising there is? Microsoft PR dept. " Oh, look. If we release another announcement about some change that isn't even final yet, all of these news sites and blogs and all of the shills will just repeat it. Then look at all of the people commenting on either how much they hate it or love it or are indifferent to it." And it doesn't even matter! Every time you read an article on XBox One, you are being advertised to. Positive, negative, no matter. The name gets bounced around inside your head.

Re:Free advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

So true. Sony Sony Sony Sony Sony Sony Sony Sony!

Re:Free advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not? Apple get a far easier ride. Whenever they so much as fart, the paid astroturfers and zealots are out in force, with a smattering of haters trying to battle them.

Can we not just see this as a simple business decision by a major player in this market. The consumer doesn't want all the shit MS is trying to shove down their throats, and they're starting to listen and are actually doing a few 180s (rather than #dealwithit). This is a good thing, at least until they do a Sony and bring in the crap with mandatory FW "upgrade".

Re:Free advertising

[UnknowingFool]

Well considering the amount of hate MS got for the Xbox one here on slashdot, you'd think that geeks would like to know that one of the major complaints had been addressed. If Sony added Linux back into the PS3, I would think people here want to hear about it.

Re:Free advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Well considering the amount of hate MS got for the Xbox one here on slashdot, you'd think that geeks would like to know that one of the major complaints had been addressed. If Sony added Linux back into the PS3, I would think people here want to hear about it.

Perhaps, but the difference is that the PS3 and the removal of Other OS from it already happened. As in, both were actually things that occurred. The XBone isn't even a thing yet. Microsoft's PR department could be making up whatever bullshit they want if they wanted to hear themselves talk and whip people into a frenzy about it.

"Oh, man, look at this amazing thing! And how it's over here! Behind this curtain! You can't look behind the curtain, don't ask. Wait, what? You don't like it? That thing I just said it had? Well... um... hey, look at that! It changed! Yeah, suddenly it's different and changed and that much better for it! No you still can't look at it yet shut up. Wow, check out how much awesome quotient has been added to it now! It's measurable! Like... fifteen... more awesomes. Buy it!"

I'm still out. Over to Sony I go.

[Anonymous Coward]

Enjoyed my Xbox 360, but MS has shown their true colors of ownership and privacy sellouts to the media co's instead of just providing the best gaming product.
No thanks I'll be getting rid of my and my extended family's Xbox's and converting over to Sony. Thanks Sony for staying true to your fan base.

Re:I'm still out. Over to Sony I go.

[cbhacking]

Because, you know, retroactively removing features from purchased hardware, suing people who try to work around those restrictions, and leaking your account details through absurdly careless security... that shows real love for your customers, right?

Re:I'm still out. Over to Sony I go.

[man_the_king]

Because, you know, retroactively removing features from purchased hardware, suing people who try to work around those restrictions, and leaking your account details through absurdly careless security... that shows real love for your customers, right?

No, but spending the next two years figuratively kissing gamers' asses does.

Re:doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Thus saith the almighty...you? No on cares you don't want it, lots of people already have bought it. Not quite DOA

Re:doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

And as soon as you take a stance like that, where your staunch emotional reaction overrides rational thinking, you have become a zealot.

I will buy an XBox One if it has great exclusives. If not, then I won't.

I certainly won't deprive myself of utility and fun just because I had a negative emotional reaction to some of Microsoft's initial choices.

The fact that you will says everything that needs to be said about your self destructiveness.

Breaking news!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Micro$oft has reversed course on another aspect of the Xbox One. Form now on the console will be called Xbox Playstation. Maybe Xbox 720 or Xbox 3."

Developers will abandon kinect now!

[Holammer]

Nah... I doubt they ever wanted or intended to develop for it to begin with. Some MS first party titles will have it shoehorned into them; but most games, even the vast majority of games will remain multi platform, so putting in kinect functionality is a wasted effort. Just like PS Move, SixAxis or Wiiu Pad support.

Re:Developers will abandon kinect now!

[Ravaldy]

You're just talking out of your ass with no foundation for your arguments.

There is a huge client base for games that require actual body movement. Kinect is known (not just presumed) to have the best movement detection framework in the gaming industry.

Re:Developers will abandon kinect now!

[TheP4st]

Kinect is known (not just presumed) to have the best movement detection framework in the gaming industry.

Which matters very little when Kinect can completely ruin your gaming experience as it did with Steel Battalion: Heavy Armor

Re:Developers will abandon kinect now!

[Ravaldy]

Obviously not a good use for kinect. None of the motion devices can handle this. Can't blame MS for having a game company miss use their equipment.

Backwards compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Microsoft,

If you want me to be interested then bring in some backwards compatibility with Xbox 360 games.
Without backwards compatibility there is no benefit of loyalty, so there’s no reason for me to consider the Xbox-One over your competitors.
If I can’t play my current game library that I have invested in on the new Xbox then, I’m sorry but I will try a PS4, I don’t want to have 2 Xbox’s on my shelf.

Re: Backwards compatibility

[Sebolains]

The PS4 will not be backwards compatible either. As much as we'd all love backwards compatibility, the difference in processor architectures makes it pretty much impossible (at least without using a streaming service, like Sony has planned).

Re: Backwards compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

he's not saying PS4 has backwards compatability just that without Xb1 having it that Microsoft isn't doing anything to keep customers loyal, and therefore there is no barrier or benefit from staying with Microsoft products.

Re:doesn't matter

[cbhacking]

What an enlightened and rational decision-making process you're using! I mean, I can understand not buying one because you literally just don't want a gaming console. I can even understand not buying one because you disagree with the way that the company has treated its customers in the past (I boycott Sony for the same reason). But in that case, you probably would either have specified such a reason, or just not commented at all. If you had a 360 and were reasonably happy with it, what has Microsoft done that is such a deal-breaker to you?

Seems like we should be *encouraging* these pro-customer policies (not that this one matters very much; you could always have unplugged the Kinect when not gaming; now you can also do it while playing non-Kinect games). Refusing to order, or canceling pre-orders, based on the initial restrictions it would have? That's totally reasonable. But when they reverse on those restrictions, before even a single customer was affected (you haven't bought it yet - you can't, it's not available yet - so by definition you are not yet a customer of this product), that behavior should be rewarded.

Acting like a petulant child isn't going to get you what you want, here. If your goal is to show that anti-customer policies hurt the bottom line, well, you need to show some distinction between how you behave with and without those policies in place. Specifically, you need to ensure that the amount of money they get for anti-customer behavior is less than the amount of money they get for pro-customer behavior. Paying them the same amount (be that zero, or the console price) in *both* situations sends no message at all.

New model coming out already!

[msobkow]

XBox One: NSA Edition

:P :D

It seems that the drm will still be there though

[Zimluura]

It seems that the drm will still be there in some form though.
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/07/forza-5-requires-download-before-it-can-run/

though they've been backpeddling from that too.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/07/18/forza-motorsport-5-install-offline-details-clarified

best case i could give them is a wait and see approach.

when i look at these factors:
the xbone fiasco.
the windows8 mess.
consumers seem to like apple now.
ms' abysmal presence on mobile devices.

it's seeming very plausible that consumers will realize there just is no good reason for microsoft to exist anymore. about the only customer they haven't alienated is the ms office user.

Latest update:

[crashcy]

XBox One is no longer a gaming console. Microsoft has reversed the policy about playing games on their upcoming console. The company has not revealed what it will do now, but given the amount of anger over every move they have made so far, industry analysts believe it may be their best decision now to just do nothing.

What???

[Anonymous Coward]

So... Let me get this straight... If I don't plug it in.. I won't be able to use it?

SHOCKING!

Thank's for explaining it to me.

Um

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

I know people wanted to slam Microsoft on everything about Xbox One, but I never suspected that it wouldn't work without Kinect attached. I throw this clearly into the FUD category. I think Microsoft was clarifying that idiots assumed it needed Kinect to work, not reversing a decision that it would require Kinect to work.

Re:Um

[Anonymous Coward]

I never suspected that it wouldn't work without Kinect attached. I throw this clearly into the FUD category. I think Microsoft was clarifying that idiots assumed it needed Kinect to work, not reversing a decision that it would require Kinect to work.

Asked 'does Kinect always have to be connected for the Xbox One to function', Harvey Eagle, Microsoft's Marketing Director of Xbox UK stated simply: "yes it does, in all cases."

Not FUD.

Re:Um

[roc97007]

I never suspected that it wouldn't work without Kinect attached. I throw this clearly into the FUD category. I think Microsoft was clarifying that idiots assumed it needed Kinect to work, not reversing a decision that it would require Kinect to work.

Asked 'does Kinect always have to be connected for the Xbox One to function', Harvey Eagle, Microsoft's Marketing Director of Xbox UK stated simply: "yes it does, in all cases."

Not FUD.

....but calling it FUD works for the people disconnected enough not to know the truth.

Re:Um

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you even post such a stupid comment parading your ignorance?
"Herp derp... I don't know anything about it, but I'm going to assume that I already know more about it than anyone else."

Re:doesn't matter

[rsborg]

Refusing to order, or canceling pre-orders, based on the initial restrictions it would have? That's totally reasonable. But when they reverse on those restrictions, before even a single customer was affected (you haven't bought it yet - you can't, it's not available yet - so by definition you are not yet a customer of this product), that behavior should be rewarded.

This is ridiculous reasoning. Microsoft spent *months* willfully thumbing their nose at the public and declaring outright "my way or highway".

This is not some simply apology after the backlash, but Microsoft's understanding that the public's perception of the XBOne is fatally flawed, and *finally* after all the hue and cry, deciding to "tone down" some of those aspects. If you were going to buy one anyway, now you'll feel better about it. If you really cared about the privacy aspects of Kinect especially after the PRISM exposure, this would do little to sway your decision.

Reality: Kinect will be required for any decent games, otherwise, it's a waste of the hardware. When enough games require it, the console pretty much does as well. My guess is that when you turn on Kinect, it will stay on even when it's not needed. Microsoft can say it's not required when it essentially is.

Have fun at your friends' parties who own XBOne's where everyone in the room will have their skeletal structures scanned and sent to a microsoft datacenter for PRISM access.

Re:doesn't matter

[hypergreatthing]

You don't show companies you mean business by compromising. They tried to push crap that no one wanted. Always on internet checking validity of games purchased? 24 hours and it stops playing back games? Giving the ability to resell games up to publishers to decide what they want to do? these are awful business decisions that take control away from the consumer. How you respond to this is by saying no, i will never have this and you can keep your crap.
You stop this behavior by straight out boycotting.
I don't owe microsoft a purchase because of their back peddling. I'm not acting like a child because i stick to my decisions. You're ludicrous in even suggesting that i do. I do not have to reward businesses for good behavior. They're out to make money and that's it. The very thought of them being anti-consumer is like a cyanide pill to themselves.

Brain Function

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft never accounted for the developing brain of the Internet connected adolescent. Unfortunate mistake. Hopefully this 12-24 group of gamers (fingers crossed) will buy a PS4 this go around which should make the Xbox lobby a more pleasant experience for its on line community!

STILL

[Korruptionen]

not gonna buy it... why? Because greed.

X Square Circle = Xbox 360

[tepples]

Form now on the console will be called Xbox Playstation

No, that was the Xbox 360, or rather, the X Square Circle.

Re:X Square Circle = Xbox 360

[Barefoot Monkey]

I can't believe that after all those years I didn't see that until you pointed it out. Wow. I always thought the 360 was some kind of reference to the Nintendo Revolution. Maybe it was too. It seems they were quite happy to give a subtle not to their competitors at the time.

Closer and closer

[jxander]

I'm still waiting for them to reach the apex (nadir?) of these reversals:

"PS4, but with Halo"

trial balloons

[roc97007]

It seems like Microsoft is exploring what the public will let them get away with.

Xbox86

[tepples]

the difference in processor architectures

I can see why it's not compatible with Xbox 360, but the original Xbox and Xbox One are both x86.

Re:Xbox86

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect MS did not want to support backward compatibility in XBOXONE is probably due to cost of support. Having to ensure that all games work is not easy. If they only wanted to check for couple hundred games, the challenges would have been very different. Much of the games uses PowerPC and also GPU model in 360 I suspect is very different from the GPU in XBOXONE.

Re:Xbox86

[drinkypoo]

I suspect MS did not want to support backward compatibility in XBOXONE is probably due to cost of support. Having to ensure that all games work is not easy. If they only wanted to check for couple hundred games, the challenges would have been very different. Much of the games uses PowerPC and also GPU model in 360 I suspect is very different from the GPU in XBOXONE.

If Virtual PC were worth one tenth of one crap, then it would be easy peasy to support Xbox games on the Xbone. No one but you mentioned the 360.

Re:doesn't matter

[firex726]

Yea, I got a feeling it'll sell just fine, maybe not flying off the shelves like the Wii was, but they'll make their money back' even if it is slow, all it'll take is a few CoDs and Halo games and problem solved.

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

"only customer they haven't alienated is the ms office user."

except for the damned ribbon

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

[...] about the only customer they haven't alienated is the ms office user.

No, they have with Silverlight and the Ribbon.

Tell that to the American Public and their...

[Anonymous Coward]

dear old 'Uncle Sam.'

Hey Liberty! You're starting to look like an overripe sack 'o potatoes about now!

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

the damned ribbon

When the ribbon showed up, I LOL'd because it is EXACTLY what people who don't like vi complain about all the time.

Office is now a modal editor, except instead of command, input, and visual modes, there are half a dozen modes or so (not counting the secret modes that only appear when you have a table or image or whatever selected), and the commands available in those modes are arbitrarily assigned so nobody knew what mode to go into to get anything done.

Re:doesn't matter

[bondsbw]

This is ridiculous reasoning. Microsoft spent *months* willfully thumbing their nose at the public and declaring outright "my way or highway".

And then they kicked out the leader of that movement, Don Mattrick, when they began to notice just how out-of-touch he was with market conditions.

And back in the land of reality, *months* have come and gone and more *months* will come and go before the release. It's less than halfway from backlash to release date and they've gone out of their way to rework a system in a short timespan, a system they worked very hard to get where they felt it was just right, but a system in which customers simply didn't agree.

When Sony has done their customers wrong, how have they responded in the past? At least Microsoft laid it all out there and has been willing to compromise before release (which is a change from even the recent Windows 8 days). Sony put rootkits in PCs and the only way the public found out is that a security researcher found it and made it public.

Wow.

[AltusMan]

Man. "X-Boxed In." does not sell well. So now they are reversing everything. X-Game Console. Get a PS4.

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you even have any fucking clue what you are talking about. Read the articles if you are able, dumbass!

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

it's seeming very plausible that consumers will realize there just is no good reason for microsoft to exist anymore. about the only customer they haven't alienated is the ms office user.

Which is it's largest base of users: Outlook, Office, and Windows XP+7.

Do you really want a world of only Apple (expensive), Google (full tracking), Firefox (developers know best), Ubuntu (ads, social media, fads) and Red Hat OSes? The other ones don't have corporate support so you can ignore them and you get STFU noob or DIY style comments when you ask for help. Microsoft as a company is the most stable of everyone. Apple targets high-class people, Google is fully supported by ads, and Microsoft targets everyone with a larger focus on businesses. The world would get along better if Apple or Google disappeared than if Microsoft did.

But just because I defended them doesn't mean I like them any better.

Re:doesn't matter

[rsborg]

You mistake me. I'm not saying Sony is any better, in fact, I do think they're worse. However, both are offering shit sandwiches for sale. PC gaming is still where it's at, and for consoles, there's a whole slew of new possibilities coming to light (maybe the next Ouya, or the Amazon console, perhaps?).

Why should I pay to be thrown into a PRSIM?

Steve? Is that you?

[Zimluura]

Steve? Is that you? *ducks to avoid flying chair*

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Zimluura]

Which is it's largest base of users: Outlook, Office, and Windows XP+7.

For sure, but MS Office is available for other platforms, and when a bussiness ditches Windows it weakens the MS Office foothold substantially. Should we upgrade to the new office, or try something cheaper?

Do you really want a world of only Apple (expensive), Google (full tracking), Firefox (developers know best), Ubuntu (ads, social media, fads) and Red Hat OSes?

No, that was a projection, not a desire. In any case better to have Google tracking me than the NSA, right?! Oh wait.

The world would get along better if Apple or Google disappeared than if Microsoft did.

I don't mind apple so much as its cultists. The world would definitely be better with out the macolytes. I don't really want MS to dissapear, but they've been making some very bad decisions lately, and I don't think they'll start making good decisions, fast enough, to reclaim their relevance.

But just because I defended them doesn't mean I like them any better.

I used to like them. NT4 and Win2k were pretty solid OSes. Now it's Linux for any work, and a win7 box for games and cross platform testing.

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that the drm will still be there in some form though.
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/07/forza-5-requires-download-before-it-can-run/

though they've been backpeddling from that too.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/07/18/forza-motorsport-5-install-offline-details-clarified

best case i could give them is a wait and see approach.

when i look at these factors:
the xbone fiasco.
the windows8 mess.
consumers seem to like apple now.
ms' abysmal presence on mobile devices.

it's seeming very plausible that consumers will realize there just is no good reason for microsoft to exist anymore. about the only customer they haven't alienated is the ms office user.

No that have POed the Office users too with the ribbons

Wait to bash it...

[Disturbedphenom]

until you have tried it. Who knows it might actually be worth while! Not for games, of course, but perhaps for navigating the menus and marketplace.

Re:It seems that the drm will still be there thoug

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh dear, the level of stupid in your post is astonishing.

The point of convergence has come

[Karmashock]

The xbox should not exist.

The windows phone should not exist.

Surface should not exist.

All of these things should just be the PC in different shapes.

PCs can run games as well or FAR better then any console. Release an inexpensive standardized gaming PC that is of console form factor and with a customized GUI for living room use. Anything that works on the machine will work on any appropriately powerful PC. And nearly all games that work on PC will automatically work on that machine. Instantly better.

Windows phone should be a version of windows that is fully compatible with other windows software. There is no technical reason why it couldn't do that. We saw some people get windows XP to run on some android phones which means if MS tried they should get a slimmed down version of windows to run on the phone. Again, give it a phone GUI with a big emphasis on making calls and texting really easy. And boom. Android apps doesn't hold a candle to the full breadth of the PC application market.

Surface... same as above.

Re:The point of convergence has come

[drinkypoo]

PCs can run games as well or FAR better then any console

I don't want to mix my games with my desktop. I want to keep them separate, like oil and water, democrats and republicans... My desktop exists to do work, create content, communicate complex thoughts that take too long on a touch display or a shitty keyboard. My console exists to play games without any extraneous bullshit. I'm already unhappy about having to install an update for every game I buy. I suppose it's really past time for me to upgrade past the 80GB disk for the 360, so that I can keep all my games installed so that I can keep all the updates installed. I only fear that if I spend more money on the 360, it will implode.

I am, of course, not giving Sony or Microsoft my money in this generation. I tried Ouya, but it blew. I might try the Mad Catz Mojo, but they are not known for the high quality of their hardware. If nVidia continues to be forthcoming with their driver source for Tegra, however, and if Mojo is not horrendously overpriced, then it may well be a good choice for connecting Android to a television at last. I have finally got my RK3188-based MK908 to the point where it is within the "acceptable" range — after trying several different ROMs and kernels. That, in itself, is unacceptable. But I'm not giving my money to those dicks at Microsoft or Sony and Nintendo really isn't what I'm looking for so...?

Re:The point of convergence has come

[Karmashock]

That's fine. Under what I said, you would buy a console form factor PC that looks like a console and has a GUI like a console. Totally indistinguishable from a console IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT. So you wouldn't notice the difference.

Someone like me... well, I want all my programs to work on all my machines if they're powerful enough to run them. And my idea here would facilitate that.

Further, it would make the windows phone competitive if it could run most windows software natively on the phone.

Look, justify making these systems incompatible with each other? You want to have a console that looks like a console for games and feels like a console? Fine. No problem with it. But that isn't mutually exclusive with my point.

Re:The point of convergence has come

[Anonymous Coward]

You're in luck. If you feel that way, buy a gaming PC. If you don't feel that way, buy a console. Hundreds of millions of people buy consoles, so suggesting a company just drop the product entirely is pretty ludicrous. And kind of weird, you aren't an expert, what makes you think you know what a major corporation should do, than they do?

Personally I have 0 interest in PC gaming, I play consoles semi-regular.

Re:doesn't matter

[cbhacking]

You realize you're posting on a website that operates in the USA, right? If the NSA wants to know about you, they can do it already. You aren't even posting "anonymously"; your ID has probably already been correlated with anywhere else you used it, and any other accounts you used on other sites that you accessed from the same IP address while it was assigned to the same modem, plus a bunch of filtering to determine when you were using a shared connection what parts were or were not actually you.

Seriously, you use the public Internet, and you're worried that a camera (which can be trivially easily disconnected from its console, disconnected from power, disconnected from the Internet, or have a box put in front of it when you aren't using it) might record you in your own home, or worse yet, the home of somebody who you probably communicate with regularly? Oh, the horror!!

Seriously, that's tinfoil-hat-grade reasoning. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of PRISM or similar either, but the only way you're going to stay out of it is either to go completely off the grid (way, way too late for that) or get it ended via policy. That's the approach I'm taking.

sfc /scrapnow

[maseo126]

They should rename the new xbox "fail bucket one"

Market research by Microsoft and the NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

The Xbox One is designed from the ground up to spy on people in their own homes. No-one EVER claimed the US government would make owning the console a compulsory act, obviously. So, the grand NSA experiment is based on how many people can be persuaded, of their own accord, to purchase and set up the NSA spy device in their own home.

Clearly, the warnings about NSA spying had had a massive effect, and the market research carried out by Microsoft and the NSA explained that the Xbox One was going to have one of the most disastrous console launches ever. If few own the console, the fact that the NSA use it to spy on people becomes somewhat redundant.

The NSA had correctly calculated that willing buyers of the Xbox One would set up the Kinect spy sensor platform perfectly, and then forget about privacy concerns. However, what about all the people that MIGHT have bought the console, if the Kinect was not so obviously a privacy issue. Even the sheeple are NOT as stupid as Bill Gates had reassured his NSA partners. We therefore see a 'change' of policy from vinegar to sugar, as they say. REMOVE compulsion, and trust that the 'appeal' of the Kinect system will lead to most people eventually setting it up, and then gradually lose concern about disconnecting it.

UNDERSTAND THIS. While the console now 'works' with Kinect un-plugged, apps/games still push Kinect, reminding the user of the wonderful advantages Kinect brings. WORSE, if Kinect is (temporarily) connected, you CANNOT cover the lenses, or point it at the wall without the console insisting that Kinect needs 'recalibration'. Kinect does NOT come with a switch, so to be secure, you need to remember to physically disconnect the sensor bar each time. The NSA figure this may lose them some households, but the increased sales of the console will more than make up for this. And they are right. The braindead authoritarian approach Bill Gates pushed with the launch of the console hurt its prospects severely compared to the PS4.

Nothing has really changed. Buying the Xbox One is like paying for the bullets used to execute you in some authoritarian state (like Britain where prisoners later found innocent have to use much of their compensation to pay the costs of the time they spent in prison). The Xbox One has 50% (as in HALF) the graphics performance of the PS4 (and yes, such a comparison can be perfectly made, because they both use the self same technology from AMD). The PS4 is much cheaper.

The Xbox One is simply a first experiment. Within a very short space of time, every convicted American will be on near lifetime probation (after any prison time) and the terms of such probation will include allowing spying devices pioneered by the Xbox One into the home of the person on probation. Bill Gates is involved in an extraordinary process of societal grooming, and in fairness does not seek to hide this fact. The power grab, including the extermination of ANY form of privacy for the sheeple, will not stop until the sheeple start pushing back. A reluctance to buy the Xbox One in the form originally promoted does NOT count. A determination not to buy it under any circumstances will count a little.

Re:doesn't matter

[cbhacking]

And when they saw nobody wanted it, they sacked the guy responsible and changed the policies. You're right, you will "never have this" because it's *NOT THERE ANYMORE*! You didn't have to compromise on anything; they went back on all that stuff you said you hated... you win! We all do!

Well, unless the cold hard facts of market data show that "nope, actually, potential customers didn't care whether the restrictions were there or not; sales weren't affected."

Seriously, this is like explaining things to a five year old. You're sticking to a decision made in situation X, even though X is now gone and the basis on which you made that decision is invalid.

Car analogy time: you're driving along, going faster than the lane next to you. Suddenly some giant truck in that lane (going a good bit slower than you) turns on their signal and starts to slowly merge into your lane. If they cross the divider, they'll cut you off, probably even clip your bumper. You hit the brakes and the horn at the same time, make angry gestures out the window, etc. The truck stops trying to get in front of you, and returns to the middle of its lane. You keep on driving and pass the truck; the driver waves at you as you go (politely, not rudely).
At what point here would a reasonable, rational person let off the horn? Because you are still leaning on it and shouting at the driver, even though he never even crossed the divider.

We already have those, they're called PCs

[cbhacking]

You already realize that the xbox is technically able to send everything it hears AND sees out to the internet, and worse that its on 24x7 even when the unit is 'off'

This makes it different from any mainstream desktop (and most laptops) with a webcam from any point in the past decade... how, exactly? Let's take, oh, iMacs. They have webcams and mics.
They have permanent Internet connections.
They are plugged in, and may still be doing something at a low level, even while appearing "off" (sleep mode, etc.).
They run software / firmware which is closed source, which you can't personally audit, which is built right into some of the chips on the hardware, chips whose schematics you don't have...

OH NOES! APPLE IS TEH BIG BROTHER!

Seriously, this whole "Kinect is spying on you for the NSA!" meme is, and I will not mince words, idiotic. As in, "the kind of thing only an idiot would think." On the offhand chance that they for some reason wanted to do this, there are already tons of ways they *could* be doing it, without requiring you to go buy new hardware either.

If you're that worried about PRISM and so forth, how the hell did you manage to post to Slashdot, and why did you do it under a logged-in account?

Re:We already have those, they're called PCs

[vux984]

This makes it different from any mainstream desktop (and most laptops) with a webcam from any point in the past decade...

1) When my computer is off, the camera and microphone are off. Yelling at it or waving at it won't turn it on. Your welcome to try if you like.

2) The camera and microphone are not usually on even when the computer is on, and is certainly not a standard mandatory requirement for anything except recording/transmitting audio-video. I'm certainly not required to have the microphone and camera on to use my computer. And I am confident that when the camera light isn't on, the camera isn't on, which is most of the time. Contrast that to a camera that's on 24x7.

3) When they are off the network is off too. There is no network traffic. The DHCP leases expire. The unit does not respond over the network.

4) I have a lot more control over the software that runs on my computer in general than one does over an xbox. Sure its incomplete. But its also not designed and purpose built to be installed in my living room running 24x7.

5) My laptop is usually shut when in not in use making illicit video capture pretty worthless outside of when im using it. And when I'm using it, it tends to see me from the chest up and the back of my couch or chair, vs having a permanent unobstructed view of my entire living area.

They just aren't the same thing.

Seriously, this whole "Kinect is spying on you for the NSA!" meme is, and I will not mince words, idiotic.

I agree with you here. I don't think its happening. I'm sadly not at all confident it will remain that way. And here is why -- and its not because I think the NSA is pressuring microsoft to do it.

Lets take a look at some of the new SmartTVs. These are a security and privacy nightmare. Like the xbox one they are cameras / mics in the TV in your living room, connected to the internet, and always on.

What do we know about them:
-- They are always on.
--They are ALREADY sending all kinds of audio/video data to the internet:
-- for innocuous reasons: such as usage trends for product development, product improvement, etc
-- video calls etc which is fine
-- for other value added features (home security / monitoring in particular ) *

And in the case of Microsoft, they have already boasted that it will be also be using the data captured by camera for advertising / customer profiling features.

So do I think the NSA is in bed with microsoft recording everyone through kinect? No. I really don't.

But do I think we're a baby step away from the NSA handing Microsoft or the smarttv vendors a secret warrant to watch people through their own TV or xbox on the thinnest of pretenses? Yeah, I do. In fact I would be surprised if it isn't happening already.

*Especially with the home-security stuff. I don't think xbox one has actually advertised the ability to use it as a home security system, but i think its inevitable. I mean, its already further ahead than anything else. There's even a documented use-case where the the console will scan a room with facial recognition and ask anyone it doesn't recognize to identify themselves so it can create a user profile for them. This was in the context of gaming / user (advertising) profiles.

But anyone who doesn't see an xbox one security monitoring app coming that combines always on/always connected, facial recognition, and cloud access to audio/images/stored and live video has their head deep deep in the sand.

We already know we have no legal expectation of privacy on anything we send to a 3rd party via the internet. So we shouldn't be surprised if the NSA is watching.

To paraphrase you, Not to mince words, but only an IDIOT would think the NSA wouldn't be able to put their hands on that feed if they had the slightest desire to.

And hell, given the security record of the smart TV makers, the neighbors kids could watch you through your TV too, never mind requiring the deep pockets and boundless authority of the US government security apparatus.

The only reason I don't care much about smartTVs as the xbox, is that I personally don't have any need to attach it to the internet in the first place. Whereas an xbox all but requires it to do anything useful.

Re:We already have those, they're called PCs

[Zaelath]

Yeah, my computer has neither microphone nor webcam. Where's your misplaced rage now?

Re:We already have those, they're called PCs

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, my computer has neither microphone nor webcam.

cool story bro, most people do. actually most people carry a computer with a microphone, webcam and gps tracker with them everywhere. if you prefer to don the tinfoil hat then you wouldnt want to buy an xbox one anyway.

Re:We already have those, they're called PCs

[cbhacking]

There's spyware out there that turns on your webcam (without turning on the indicator light, incidentally) while the machine appears to be in sleep mode. It would be entirely possible for this to happen while the machine appeared to be off entirely too, unless you unplugged it. Hell, there's been stories about such spyware right here on Slashdot; laptops and iPads that were issued to students and then used to spy on them in their bedrooms, for example. Just because it doesn't wake up when you wave at it doesn't mean it *isn't* watching you...

Don't get me wrong, I think that the NSA would love to get their hands on that data. If I ever buy or receive an Xbox One (I have never yet bought myself a console, even a handheld; my 360 was a gift, as was my old GameBoy) it will be a potential concern. On the other hand, I already have that concern about my phone. I can't stop it from acting as a tracker (tower triangulation) short of disabling the cellular radio, and it doesn't even have indicator lights for when the cameras or mic are in use. I use it anyhow (while digging into its guts in an attempt to ensure there's nothing in there that I dislike too much) because it's too damn useful. I haven't turned on my 360 in weeks, so clearly I don't find it to have an equivalent degree of usefulness, but I do turn it on (and connect the Kinect sensor) at times. Oh, and it's only occasionally connected to the Internet (for example, at the moment, it is not).

Re:We already have those, they're called PCs

[vux984]

There's spyware out there that turns on your webcam (without turning on the indicator light, incidentally)

Not of the LED for the camera is on the power circuit for the camera. I don't dispute that there are some (many?) really terrible hardware implementations out there though, but a good design cannot be defeated by spyware.

Hell, there's been stories about such spyware right here on Slashdot; laptops and iPads that were issued to students and then used to spy on them in their bedrooms, for example.

And in those cases they snapped pictures, and the camera light flicked on briefly when it happened which is part of the reason they got found out.

Just because it doesn't wake up when you wave at it doesn't mean it *isn't* watching you...

Fair enough, but you are speculating on the theoretically possibility that a large number of factors all have to line up just so for the vulnerability to be useful. You need a user using suitable hardware, with his laptop left open, facing of value, and you have to get the spyware onto it. All of this is potentially doable with a cooperative enough target, but it sets the bar relatively high.

The xbox by contrast is standardized hardware that the end user will setup in his living room for you, and that the end user expects to be always on and always connected to the internet.

It's the difference between speculating that you could murder someone if you could hack someones remote starter, and they happened to leave the vulnerable car in the garage, with the door closed, and they happened to sleep in a room that wasn't well ventilated attached to the garage. Sure you could do that. And that's what the 'laptop' scenario amounts to.

The xbox scenario amounts to the end user loading a shotgun pointed at his bed, with string attached to the trigger dangling out the window. All you have to do is pull.

On the other hand, I already have that concern about my phone. I can't stop it from acting as a tracker (tower triangulation) short of disabling the cellular radio, and it doesn't even have indicator lights for when the cameras or mic are in use.

All true. However, phones without cameras are available, and there are camera removal / disabling services available. ($20-$50 bucks for a tech to open it, cut the wire/remove the lens...) The phone doesn't require a camera to operate. The military and other security conscious environments have mandated this. You can also buy an iphone 4S without a camera (with some effort).

For the rest of us who are less drastic there are plenty of cases with physical lens covers. Not to mention the battery life would suffer dramatically if someone remotely enabled the camera and streamed the video.

The microphone obviously is more problematic.

But again, it all ties back to the default mode of operation. For the NSA to 'hack my phone' they'd actually have to put some effort into it. I don't beleive, at this point that there is some built in function the NSA can flip to turn on camera and mic and start recording me. I'm sure if they went to enough to trouble they could pass my phone some targeted malware update to do this, etc, etc. But they'd need to develop that malware for my device, coordinate with the ISP to get it onto my device, etc. There'd -probably- be some sort of warrant/ oversight etc. I'm distrustful of the government, but I'm not full on tin-foil hat.

The xbox one and smart TV security monitoring functionality on the other hand, would already be setup to capture and stream everything always on, always connected, 24x7. The NSA doesn't have to do squat except contact whoever that data is already being sent to, and ask for a copy. This is already something they can do. =Data sent to 3rd parties is extremely weakly protected legally.

Millions of xbox one owners, standardized platform, end users do all the setup, all streaming to the same place... no hacks required. All they have to do is ask for it.

Its a spy agencies wet dream.

What's the deal with this "spying" stuff?

[whoop]

Why are people so hell-bent on saying MS will spy on you masturbating in your living room with this Kinect, when Microsoft has been making an operating system, webcam hardware, drivers that connect the two for many, many years? Really, if spying on everybody is what they're out to do, they would have far more options doing it via Windows rather than the small percentage of the general population that has an Xbox.

Re:doesn't matter

[exomondo]

PC gaming is still where it's at

Yeah because PC games don't have DRM...

Why should I pay to be thrown into a PRSIM?

huh?

I can see the futrure

[Chompjil]

I bet you once the Xboner has at least half of the userbase of the PS4, they will turn back on the DRM

Re:doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Masking tape, ever heard of it, you nutjob?

Re:doesn't matter

[hypergreatthing]

your analogy is invalid and childish. Your reasoning is poor. You're suggesting that i retain no memory of what led up to that poor decision and treat them like a child who's learning. Saying that backpedaling and half assed apologies should make up for the fact that it was a PR nightmare. None of those features is what anyone wanted except publishers and advertisers, both whom which the console was never marketed for. Because they sacked one guy doesn't mean that the culture of screwing over the customer doesn't still exist, or should i recall a boatload of recent windows products? How's RT and win 8, windows phones doing? yeah same crap. Over-marketed, poorly thought out and stuff that no one wants. Did you even pay attention to the attitude of the people who pushed this crap? I don't care if they were sacked, that doesn't make up for the fact they told people who don't have consistent internet to buy a 360 instead. That stays in my memory as a reason to never give then any money in the future. It's not my fault you don't have the ability to recall events such as that.

Re:doesn't matter

[rsborg]

Seriously, that's tinfoil-hat-grade reasoning. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of PRISM or similar either, but the only way you're going to stay out of it is either to go completely off the grid (way, way too late for that) or get it ended via policy. That's the approach I'm taking.

Nice strawman - since PRSIM exists, you assume all information is being gathered, and just assume that getting off the grid is the only way out. That's highly simplistic - while I agree that my pseudonym here on /. is probably tied to my profile in social networking sites easily which may have a good representation of me, I pretty much draw the line at privacy invasions directly in my home.

It's not paranoia or tin-hat territory if you already know they're profiling you (and everyone else).

Re:doesn't matter

[cbhacking]

You're factually incorrect in one very simple example: families who have multiple gamers who like to play different games at the same time were pretty happy about the ability to share purchases across multiple consoles for simultaneous play. Even Steam - generally considered the "least DRM-ish" DRM platform, doesn't allow that (unless use offline mode, at which point a lot of stuff will stop working for SteamWorks games). I have no personal use for that feature, nor do I feel it was worth the always-on requirement, but to some people it was a mighty fine carrot. XBOne pre-orders were bad, they weren't zero.

I'm really curious why you think that people getting sacked from a company doesn't make up for the fact that those people said stupid things, in terms of that company's (still pre-release) products. I mean, what was MS supposed to do, fire them out a cannon into the sun?

Oh, and Windows Phone is third place in global marketshare, beating both several OSes that were there before it and several that have come since its release, and is still climbing. Yeah, it's still in the single digits; I'm not claiming it's a huge success. But it's not the colossal failure you imply, either. In fact, I'm not even sure what part of it supposed to be "screwing over the customer" like you claim. Win8 has it's Start screen, RT has its lockdown and inability to run legacy apps (the general opinion among people who own one, at least on XDA, seems to be that the Start screen makes sense on a tablet; I therefore assume you're complaining about the lockdown), but I'm not sure what your beef with the phone is...

Re:doesn't matter

[hypergreatthing]

.... different games at the same time?
Because it's so difficult to pass a cd/dvd across rooms in a single house since they're all playing different games? I don't see your point.
Because those weren't the decision makers. They were just the fall guys. The directors and management who allowed them to do what they did need to be sacked too. Unless you really think microsoft operates in completely isolated silos and some manager in the xbox division has complete product control as well as the ability to make public statements to enrage the market he's trying to convince to buy the console. I'm willing to bet his decisions and statements were approved beforehand. Something maybe you haven't considered? ... windows ME had a market share too. Windows phones having single digit market share doesn't mean success in the least. It's late to the market, has no features that people want. Even the marketing was so obtuse. Being able to post a facebook picture faster was the main marketing advertisements for it. How is it better than android or iOS? Because microsoft created it? And what are the competitors anyways? Symbiant? RIM os? Third party dumbphone os? They failed to make any case for why consumers would want it. Besides operating in their standard "lets just con manufacturers that this will take off" and only netting nokia as a gullible failure.
Win 8 added features to PCs that pc users did not want and actively try and remove. To me that's a bone headed move that will hurt in the long run. It's not even some evolution that people are resistant to, it's just plain dumb. How many win 8 users on a pc get rid of the start screen? Probably most because it's not made for a mouse and keyboard but a touch screen. It just tells me that the company has some really bad systematic decision making problems. Maybe they think they're too big to fail, but at this point with their current lack of success people are going to notice and laugh them off the map.

steve ballmer feels it

[KingBenny]

steve jobs doesnt have to (unfortunately for him yet i dont know which one he would have preferred)
the megacorp is dying unless it provides raw shit
i dont think any of the oil companies are in trouble yet since the base resources are necessary for any of the others to function
the old powers were all in the west with maybe the exception of japan, china used to be cheap scum stuff but is a major player now and this is only the start which has nothing to do with it
imo , the console battle for ms has been lost already, sony launches earliers and microsoft will launch later AND in less places
the drm story hurt them beyond repair before it even started so if sony comes through with the promises i dont see how microsoft could top this in any way except for the groupies which you have with all brands. Im on my second xbox but i think if i go to the next console this time it will be a ps4 (if i had the option i would stick with my pc but that dont come with tekken or soulcalibur)
its games OMG (big business in 2014, euh 2013)
since console gaming is something for the privileged who have daddy & mommy pay for it or people like me who would rather buy a console to play tekken and a monster magnet ticket than a car or kids i dont know if it will be the grand saviour BUT
as far as my limited business mind can see the global battle for this generation (hardly next-gen anymore by now) is already over. Not that ms will lose money on it (depending on development costs) probably but we do all get the picture here.
no?

Re:steve ballmer feels it

[KingBenny]

the kinect thing? no one could be serious about thinking it would have been required in the first place. This is a marketing denial trick thought up by someone stuck in the eighties when it comes to consumer mind