Egyptian Security Forces Storm Pro-Morsi Camps Leaving Nearly 100 Dead

After weeks of protesting the ousting of Morsi (forming encampments in Cairo during that time), the Egyptian security forces forcibly broke up the protesters' camps early this morning. Things quickly turned violent, leaving around one hundred people dead, including at least two journalists. The interim President has also declared an indefinite state of emergency, "allowing security forces to arrest and detain civilians indefinitely without charge." The AP reports that clashes are not isolated to Cairo: "Dozens of people have been killed across Egypt Wednesday in clashes between security forces and supporters of Morsi."

Comments

Not a Coup?

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's still not a military coup for which reason?

Re:Not a Coup?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which media outlet claims it wasn't? Every media I have seen suggested a coup in the very beginning. A lesson for any nation: first formulate a fair and balanced constitution, then select a interim government to built the core facilities required to start satisfying the requirements of the constitution, after which you choose a president. Not the other way around.

Re:Not a Coup?

[Guru80]

Because the world would have to be responsible for their inaction and cut off billions in funding, nobody wants that! Oh wait....everybody wants that, except politicians of course. To much money going around in lobbying and special interest groups and whatever else can put money into their pockets to take a stance that might hurt that.

Re:Not a Coup?

[jxander]

The government. They're not saying it ISN'T a coup ... but there also not saying that is IS.

We have laws in this country that prevent us from sending financial aid to countries where a coup has occurred. So as long as the government doesn't actively admit what's going on, we can keep bribing people over there.

Re:Not a Coup?

[kwiqsilver]

Because if it was a coup, then the US government couldn't give the Egyptian government $1B+ each year to buy weapons from US manufacturers, that they then use to maintain their coup...er...democracy. Corporate welfare is very important. You wouldn't want to see those rich industrialists out on the street would you?

Re:Not a Coup?

[ShanghaiBill]

Too much money going around in lobbying and special interest groups ...

The primary "special interest group" behind American support for the coup, is AIPAC. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Morsi was pro-Hamas. Support for Hamas ended with the coup, and AIPAC has threatened retribution against any politician that tries to cut off the billions of American tax dollars flowing to the new military dictatorship.

Morsi was a terrible leader, and deserved to be removed from office. But the way to do that in a democracy is to hold a recall election, not by sending soldiers into the street. As an American, I am very ashamed of what my country is doing.

Re:Not a Coup?

[GameboyRMH]

But those boogeymen are so good at dancing. They're just here to do whatever they can. Bogeymen, on the other hand...

Re:Not a Coup?

[argStyopa]

Of course it's a military coup. Anyone who claims it isn't is either an idiot or is trying to spin it for the "simple folk".

In this case, it's a military coup that we LIKE because we prefer military juntas to reactionary religious extremists.

Claiming it's not a military coup because some idiots think that "all military coups are bad" is simply catering to the simpletons who believe things like "all democracy is good" or "all Arabs/Jews are bad" (whichever), etc. In the REAL WORLD, things aren't quite so black and white as the dimwitted public seems to prefer.

Re:Not a Coup?

[Arker]

"So as long as the government doesn't actively admit what's going on, we can keep bribing people over there."

The notion that office holders can simply avoid admitting what everyone knows, without even denying it, and thereby entitle themselves to break the law with impunity, is really astonishing.

Re:Not a Coup?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Ask John Kerry!

Last week, Secretary of State John Kerry visted Pakistan. In an interview with Geo TV he remarked on Egypt:

SECRETARY KERRY: [...] The military was asked to intervene by millions and millions of people, all of whom were afraid of a descendance into chaos, into violence. And the military did not take over, to the best of our judgment so â" so far. To run the country, thereâ(TM)s a civilian government. In effect, they were restoring democracy. And the fact is --

QUESTION: By killing people on the roads?

SECRETARY KERRY: Oh, no. Thatâ(TM)s not restoring democracy, and weâ(TM)re very, very concerned about, very concerned about that. And Iâ(TM)ve had direct conversations with President Mansour, with Vice President ElBaradei, with General al-Sisi, as have other members of our government. And Iâ(TM)ve talked to the Foreign Minister Nabil Fahmy, so Iâ(TM)ve been in touch with all of the players there. And we have made it clear that that is absolutely unacceptable, it cannot happen.

Now, as you know, these situations can be very confusing and very difficult. Weâ(TM)re working very hard right now with Lady Catherine Ashton, with various officials, with other foreign ministers of other countries, in order to try to see if we can resolve this peacefully. But the story of Egypt is not finished yet, so we have to see how it unfolds in the next days.

So Much for Democracy

[DexterIsADog]

They tried it in Egypt, and the army said, "no, you're doing it wrong". Actually it was more like, "no, you might cut into our profits", so... no Democracy for you!

Re:So Much for Democracy

[MightyYar]

I've heard both sides of this. One says Morsi was the democratically elected leader and ousting him destroys any chance at democracy. The other side says he was setting himself up as dictator. As usual, the truth is probably sloppier than either side would admit. I do know that the military is still enjoying a lot of popularity, so this is likely to continue. I wish the country well, and I hope they get it all sorted out.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Immerman]

I think it broke down a little before the army stepped in: (condensed from wikipedia entry on Morsi)
June 2012, election committee announces that Morsi has won the election
Nov. 2012 - Morsi temporarily grants himself unlimited power, including the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review
    - hundreds of thousands of Egyptians took to the streets in the 2012 Egyptian protests
Dec 2012 - Morsi annuls his decree of unlimited power, but states that all the effects of his time as de-facto emperor will remain
June 30, 2013 - mass protests erupt calling for the presidents resignation after severe fuel shortages and electricity outages
    - the army threatens to step in and build a roadmap for the country if protestors demands aren't met by July 3, while insisting they did not want to rule the country or intend for a military coup.
Morsi was declared unseated on 3 July 2013 by a council consisting of defence minister Abdul Fatah al-Sisi, opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei, the Grand Imam of Al Azhar Ahmed el-Tayeb, and Coptic Pope Tawadros II

Can't say I've paid enough attention to Egypt since then to be able to say anything about how democracy is likely to fair going forward, but it certainly wasn't doing too well before the army stepped in.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Billly Gates]

The election was flawed inthe first place and rushed.

The way it was setup insured there were only 2 choices. Center and left was fractured while the right was united through a single radical muslim. So the rule of 2 applied where you had a former Mabarik henchman corrupt or a radical muslim and no further candidates? If you were Egyptian who would you vote for?

A dictator under corrupt American imperialist or freedom from a religious group who is fanatical, yet was not part of the old boss club?

American anology would be Pat Robertson who promises a Christian theocracy or King George III who promises a return to the old? Wouldnt must of you protest too?

These are what the post Morsi protests to ask the army to remove him were about? Majority of Egyptians oppose Morsi like the majority of Americans and Floridians voted for Al Gore, yet Harris threw out enough ballots to tip it to Bush combined with Electoral College caused the anti Bush bias you see and divided country. Egypt is the same. Divided with one group thinks its legit and the other feels robbed.

Libya is fine and done right

Re:So Much for Democracy

[DarkOx]

The problem is both are true. Morsi was the democratically elected leader, and he was setting if not himself up as a dictator permanent brotherhood rule.

Still unless someone can prove he violated Egypts new Constitution Morsi is the only legitimate leader of that nation. Its not know if Morsi's effort to marginalize opposition parties would have been effective enough to see him re-elected with a public wise to the danger/agenda he posed; it was however to duty of anyone who seriously wanted a democracy in Egypt to wait that long and find out.

This is sham; and long term I am confident it will prove harmful to reform. You can't have a democracy and a precedent for simply removing elected leaders when you are not satisfied with the outcome.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[MightyMartian]

I'm not sure what the Egyptian Army was to do. The protests against Morsi and the MB were massive, and I think it's well justified to call this a popular uprising.

Here in the West we're largely used to peaceful transfers of government and political parties, despite some ideological differences, tending to stick to the middle ground on most issues. While there are certainly protest movements, we haven't had them at the fever pitch that has been seen in the Arab Spring. For better or for worse we still, at least nominally, believe in the political process as the appropriate channel for change.

In countries like Egypt, where democracy has never really existed, and the democratic institutions that are there are more shams or for show than functional governmental and political entities, there is little or no civic notion of political process. A strong man falls, another takes his place. That seems to have been what Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood had decided, that somehow the uprising against Mubarak was simply another iteration of the same old process, and now Morsi could take his rightful place as King of the Mountain, inflict his movement's policies and his political allies on the populace by tossing out everyone from school principles to the head of a symphony orchestra with Muslim Brotherhood members.

So, for me, while I think it's troubling that the Army again asserted itself into the political process, the problem seems to be a distinct lack of political process. Clearly there are serious flaws in the constitution that was promulgated, and ultimately few checks on the powers of the Egyptian President and his cronies. This is something of a reset, but whether it will produce better results or not is difficult to say. One thing that has happened is that the Egyptian opposition groups and parties realize that their disunity is what delivered Morsi and the MB the last election, and that if they're serious about a change in the way the government works, they're going to have to stop the internecine warfare.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Anonymous Coward]

The situation isn't nearly as simple as you imply. Morsi won the election then suspended parliament and set out on a year-long agenda to usurp power and push though the Muslim Brotherhood's view of Egypt's future, which is far more religious than most Egyptians want. I know that we in the west expect our elected politicians to break most of their campaign promises and then do what they had secretly planned to do all along as soon as they are in office, but the Egyptions weren't having it right after a revolution.

The army does what it does for many reasons, in parallel. I doubt that they are purely altruistic, but I believe they were sincere in enforcing the will of the people. They only removed Morsi after millions of people had protested against the president for weeks, with more and more people coming out every day. A true democracy should have some way to kick someone out of office if he or she completely disregards their mandate. This obviously isn't it, but it's what many of the people wanted, and Morsi wasn't about to hold a referendum to see.

Of course, the current situation is not good. Morsi supporters were glad that he was a champion of the Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt was already a silently divided nation before this came into the open. The conservative religious factions would like to gradually move Egypt towards Sharia law and Islamic theocracy. Others, especially among the youth, would like Egypt to embrace more aspects of Western culture.

Egypt is one of the more modern Islamic nations. The country is relatively open to the West and there is a great deal of tourism in the country that exposes them to Western culture. They are also very active online with relatively little censorship. I believe that the majority of Egyptians want to see the nation continue in this direction. This is good for the rest of the Western world as well. Egypt's culture has considerable influence on the rest of the Arabic world due to their prominent media industries. It is one of the reasons that people who wish to study Arabic are told to learn Egyptian Arabic. It is the most widely understood modern Arabic dialect. As such, if Egypt breaks away from the influence of religious fundamentalism then it's a win for everyone except the fundies.

So, what can they do at this point? If most people were upset with Morsi for abandoning his mandate and acting as an agent of the Muslim Brotherhood, then he should clearly not be in power. How then do you appease those who want him re-instated? They have been protesting and creating problems for over 5 or 6 weeks now, in the middle of the capital. There is no perfect solution. Unfortunately, the army has turned to force and this will mar everything else that they have done, but I still believe that supporting the will of the people was one of their main reasons for entering the fray, and there are not many options on the table when you are dealing with violent mobs with armed members.

At this point only time will tell where Egypt goes next, but with Morsi at the helm they were not on their way to true democracy. Ultimately, when you have such large opposing factions, true democracy may be impossible.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Billly Gates]

Sounds like you have been watching too much Fox News?

Libya is the most moderate and pro western friendly government int the middle east! The muslim brotherhood there got around 10% of the votes. The people had no desire for this and had choices.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Rockoon]

June 30, 2013 - mass protests erupt calling for the presidents resignation after severe fuel shortages and electricity outages

Understatement of the year.

It was arguably the largest protest in the history of the world. Some claims are as much as 14 million people, nearly 17% of the Egyptian population.

To put that in perspective, 17% of the American population is more than 50 million people.

If 50 million Americans were protesting in the streets demanding that Obama (or Bush) to be removed from office, and as a response Obama (or Bush) then held a 5 hour television broadcast declaring that he will not only not be leaving office but that additionally that the constitution will never apply to him, then I damn well expect the American military to do the same thing.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Some other factors, at least from how I look at it as an outsider...

Morsi was allowing groups to operate from Egypt that were starting to piss of Israel. The current relationship between the two countries has been amiable at best, and the military of Egypt wants to keep it that way. They don't want Israel to have excuses for incursions, and obviously things that could cause a war is something they DO NOT WANT. (Considering how bad history has been for them regarding past conflicts.) Despite some disagreements, having trade and travel with a neighboring country is always better than some stupid war where no real interests are at stake.

The MB was also changing or influencing things that would make Egypt less friendly to tourism. Some fanatics in the MB even talking about destroying ancient artifacts and such. However that particular industry is a big money maker and employer for the country. So yeah, a lot of people would be pissed off about that.

And then there's just a lot of people being trod on in general because of their more secular nature, or having other beliefs. Having an official government sanctioned religion isn't something they want. And honestly if some people are unfomfortable about dealing with dealing with other cultures and outlooks on life and really want to live under strict muslim religious law, there are some other mideastern countries they could move to instead. It's not like they don't have that option.

The military of Egypt may be acting as part of a coup, but it's because they have plenty of experience in its affiars. (And will end up dealing with the mess if things go horribly wrong.) Yes, the old regime was corrupt. But no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. When it comes to some newcomer(s) pissing away the few things that have been working well for the country, of course they're going attempt to nip it in the bud.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

That's easy to say in a country where the most recently elected leader won't be in power indefinitely.

Democracy is a subset of freedom, not the other way around. Democracy has shown many times to collapse into dictatorship, especially with new ones.

Democracy is the tool free people use. Democracy does not create, and sure as hell is not synonymous with, freedom.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[HornWumpus]

I'd expect a SS agent to cap him on camera.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[DarkOx]

All of what you say are policy positions though. Why have an elected government at all if its not empowered to disagree and ultimately direct its military generals. If the military is the ultimate decider of national policy than you have a oligarchy of military guys with a facade representative government.

    A plurality of the population of Egypt elected Morsi, those people probably want a more hostile relationship with Israel and probably are more concerned with their state religion than with its impact on tourism. Its *reasonable* for Morsi to adopt policies considered favorable by his electorate.

If others don't like it they need to stick together and make sure Morsi and the brotherhood does not win a plurality of votes in subsequent elections. Its also incumbent upon them to demand stronger checks and balance be put in place, while they have power.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[Bing Tsher E]

A plurality of the population of Egypt elected Morsi

Egypt was right smack in the middle of the ol' One Man, One Vote, One Time deal. The Islamic Brotherhood (a group very close to the Obama administration- the wife of that penis boy, (whatever his name is, who is running for mayor of NY) was the Islamic Brotherhood mouthpiece within Hillary's state department.

It's shocking that just to be anti-American, people flout shitty political situations like that, and back political forces that would incinerate the gay population of the world if they had their way.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[jd.schmidt]

Well, there IS more than one branch of government. Morsi also started dismissing and overriding the Judiciary unilaterally. He may have felt he has the power to do so under the new powers he granted himself, but that doesnâ(TM)t mean he legally did.

Basic lesson, 51% of the vote should not mean you get 100% of what you want. All well-functioning democracies have protections for the minority.

Re:So Much for Democracy

[msobkow]

Actually overstatement of the year. On both sides. The protests were not by millions of people on either side. There simply wasn't enough room for that many people in the space occupied by the protestors on either side of the fence.

Doubts emerge over Egypt's protester numbers

Tyranny of the majority

[AmiMoJo]

The non-Muslims are divided into many smaller groups so can't form a cohesive opposition to the Muslim majority. The Muslims are well organized and it's easy for their imams to tell everyone to vote for the same guy.

What do you do when the majority want to take away your freedoms?

Re:Tyranny of the majority

[Billly Gates]

You do know the majority of Egyptians oppose Morsi? The elections were setup in a way where a former Marbarak henchman vs a Morsi were your only 2 votes. They voted agaisnt marbarek more than voted for Morsi. Then Morsi gave himself god like powers and dissolved parliment.

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[phantomfive]

Wall Street Journal:Nearly 100 dead.
USA Today: Nearly 100 dead
CNN: 95-200 dead
NBC: At least 95 dead
Fox News: Nearly 100 dead

But don't let reality get in the way of your bizarre conspiracy theory.

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[aliquis]

Democracy! It's good when you aren't voting on the muslims!

Though then again fuck all gods and their believers.

This is TRAGIC but..

[dryriver]

The country as a whole would have been far worse off with the Muslim Brotherhood in charge - for, say, a whole decade. If Egypt is to stay secular, and remain/become a modern country, it is imperative that the country doesn't fall into the hands of the theo-conservatives. So while the deathtoll is tragic, the country would - in the long run - be infinitely, infinitely worse off if governed by the Muslim Brotherhood... I hope that things settle down in Egypt, and that the country's shortlived democracy experiment resumes, and works out better this time. My 2 cents.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[Issarlk]

They got voted in and promptly tried getting unlimited power. To make democracy stronger, no doubt.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[mjr167]

As much you dislike Bush, comparing him to Islamic fundamentalists is a bit far fetched. The reality is that the vast majority of American's are actually very well off (compared to the masses of Egypt and other countries in that region) and Bush did very little to change that. Even when the economy 'collapsed' we didn't have even close to the kinds of problems Egypt is having right now.

Eventually people are going to have to realize that Bush/Obama was not the great Satan; he did not doom us as a nation; other presidents before him have committed equally heinous acts, and life doesn't actually suck that badly in the US. People setting stuff on fire and getting shot for political/theological disputes is the exception rather than the norm here.

Yes, there is room for improvement, but there will always be room for improvement. We will never have utopia for the simple reason that my version of utopia is different from yours so we will end up with some sludge of a compromise in which no one is happy.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[mcgrew]

The reality is that the vast majority of American's

are uneducated. In history as well as third grade punctuation.

Name another President that started with a budget surplus and ended with the biggest deficit in history, started TWO wars at the same time, and went into office in a boom and ended in a terrible economy?

Yes, Hoover went in during a boom and ended in a depression, other Presidents have had similar failures, but if there were any but Bush that had such a bad run I must have missed class that day. Bush was certainly the worst President in my 61 year lifetime. I thought I'd never see worse than Carter but Bush beat him hands down in his terrible stewardship.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[mjr167]

Lincoln had half the country in an open, armed rebellion that resulted in far more devastating consequences to the economic stability of the country. His successor then decided the best way to deal with the newly re-unified nation was to impose crippling sanctions upon the southern states that many would argue the south never fully recovered from.

Regardless of if you thought the Civil War was "Right" or "Wrong" morally, the simple fact is it was the bloodiest and most devastating war we (the US) have EVER fought. The WWs may have killed more people, but Europe took the brunt of the infrastructure damage and civilian casualties.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[Bing Tsher E]

I thought I'd never see worse than Carter but Bush beat him hands down

Don't worry. Obama is working on topping both of them.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[CrimsonAvenger]

Name another President that started with a budget surplus

Bush did NOT start with a budget surplus.

Contrary to whatever you have heard about Clinton, the National Debt went UP EVERY SINGLE YEAR he was in office. Note that the last time the National Debt went down was in the '50s.

Re:This is TRAGIC but..

[shilly]

Given that most anti-gummint types declare themselves pro-business, it's amazing how few seem to comprehend the difference between deficits and debt. It's really not that difficult: you run a surplus if your annual income exceeds your annual expenditure; if it's the other way round, you have a deficit. If a country were a government, this would be profit (or loss). It is possible to be a profitable country and still owe money to others, just as it's possible to be a profitable company and owe money to a bank, or be a solvent individual and owe money to the bank in the form of a mortgage. You can argue about how much debt a country ought to hold, but conflating deficit and debt is just .... stupid.

CBO figures show quite clearly that the Clinton administration ran a surplus in its final three years (and also in 2001 due to momentum):
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43904-Historical%20Budget%20Data-2.xls
They also give the lie to your assertion that the national debt went up every year he was in office. In fact, debt fell in 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001. By 2001, it was down to 3.3tn, having peaked at 3.8tn in 1997. That was a fall from 48.4% of GDP in 1996 to 32.5% of GDP in 2001 -- 16% points in 5 years. I wish I was paying my mortgage off that quickly.

Then Bush came along and fucked it all up. Royally:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/05/the-three-best-charts-on-how-clintons-surpluses-became-bush-and-obamas-deficits/

Honestly, I see no point in your deluding yourself about economic history. Get over the cognitive dissonance and learn to accept the world as it is, not as you would like it to be.

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[Chris Mattern]

Washington Post is reporting 42 dead confirmed at an aid station for Morsi supporters, 60 dead estimated by the Egyptian government, and over 2000 esimated by the Muslim Brotherhood. Where are you seeing 15-20?

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[simonbp]

NPR was reporting "at least a hundred dead" several hours ago. I think it's not the US media that is biased so much as you.

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[binarylarry]

True, although the military stepped in because the elected officials were attempting to appoint themselves dictators for life.

If the US president declared himself Emperor of the United States, how much do you want to bet he'd quickly be placed in a military jail cell?

It was a coup against a coup

[Anonymous Coward]

Morsi executed his own coup when he granted himself dictatorial powers. That, combined with the fact he was a corrupt and colossal failure who engendered a popular uprising against him, justified the army removing him from power.

Morsi's "democracy" was of the same sort that blessed vast swathes of post-colonial Africa in the 1960s and 70s: One man, one vote, once, followed by brutal dictatorship. Now at least Egypt has a slim chance of having something resembling a real democracy. Under Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood cronies, there was none.

Re:It was a coup against a coup

[Nidi62]

Now at least Egypt has a slim chance of having something resembling a real democracy. Under Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood cronies, there was none.

That is predicated on the Egyptian military actually giving up their power after the coup to restore democracy, which they have so far been unwilling to do. Part of the problem is that the Egyptian military can look at Turkey, where the military has a very strong presence in the government. There have really been no indications that the military plans to give up power at this point.

News for nerds?

[Okian Warrior]

Usually news stories on this site have at least a faint aroma of tech relevance.

Certain select stories are of such a high importance that everyone wants to talk about them and they appear on this site despite having no relevance to the major purpose.

That's fine, really it is. But I have to ask, where is the dividing line? Will we be seeing articles on Syria? More than 100 people are killed there on a regular basis. Fourty-four were killed in a mosque in Nigeria the other day. Is that significant? A white-ish guy shot an innocent black kid who was definitely not bashing the white-guy's head into the pavement - is that relevant?

I found this very interesting Third Amendment lawsuit (yes, Third amendment) and didn't submit because it was offtopic.

I'm not saying that world events are not important, and this one is pretty high on the importance scale. It's just that I avoid regular news sites and frequent this one because it saves time. Yes, I can skip articles - but note that I can skip articles in Google News and Reddit as well.

I can't find the link, but I remember a chart of "Slashdot readership" that showed a general decline over the last several years.

This leade to a simple question: Is Slashdot better for reporting generic news items, or should it be more about "News for Nerds"?

Re:News for nerds?

[Nemyst]

Slashdot most certainly shouldn't be so isolationist as to avoid talking about anything non-tech. I think it can be interesting to have discussions about non-tech news with the very tech/science focused community here, which is very different from most other news sites.

Re:News for nerds?

[Scorch_Mechanic]

Very much this. People who complain that this or that news story isn't "news for nerds" are forgetting that the "nerds" who read Slashdot often provide more insightful commentary than any other group of private citizen commentators, and certainly more insight than what the majority of the 24 hour news-cycle organizations. Furthermore, because Slashdot has global readership we get commentary from people outside the United States. I love reading slashdot comments for the same reasons I like listening to the BBC on the radio on my local public radio station (KQED), because I hear fresh viewpoints that originate not in this country.
 
Slashdot's readership is one of the largest college educated and tech focused groups out there. It's clear to me that the people who read these terrible story summaries and comment here are frightfully smart, and it would be a terrible waste not to capitalize on the group intelligence present here whenever possible.

Maybe overturning an election

[Presto Vivace]

was not such a great idea. Even when the bad guy wins, it is better to respect the results of a democratic election.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[Anonymous Coward]

We have done that zero times.

I am fairly certain that the US has not attempted to overturn every single democratically-elected government on the planet.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[Opportunist]

Are you deliberately fishing for comments or are you really that illusional? Pick for yourself the one that you like best:

Iran, 1953
Guatemala, 1954
Brazil, 1964
Chile, 1973

And that's just the ones that I can think of without digging too deeply.

Aside of that there are various "interventions" that are more or less known to be US based or US backed meddling, from Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Turkey and a few more where they actually didn't succeed. Yes, such a thing does happen, too.

So please don't tell me the US gives a shit about elections. If those elections turn out to be against their interests, the government is fair game.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[Dragon Bait]

Are you deliberately fishing for comments or are you really that illusional? Pick for yourself the one that you like best:

Iran, 1953 [wikipedia.org]
Guatemala, 1954 [wikipedia.org]
Brazil, 1964 [wikipedia.org]
Chile, 1973 [wikipedia.org]

And that's just the ones that I can think of without digging too deeply.

I believe the comment was US has not attempted to overturn every single democratically-elected government and not the U.S. has attempted to overturn zero democratically-elected governments.

Some? Yes. All? No.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[Bing Tsher E]

Work on reading comprehension.

The four links you provided were not every election that has occurred. And your handwaving about other instances is... well, did it cool off your fingers?

There have been many unjust interventions throughout history. By many geopolitical forces. Not just by the U.S. I mean, get fucking real.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[Culture20]

Even when the democratically elected official is planning to set himself up as dictator? Their choices were "Confirmed guy trying to be dictator and 0.00001% chance of getting a real election again" They went with the lottery ticket choice (which many people would).

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[Martin Blank]

There was little to no chance of Morsi becoming a dictator. The military ultimately has the power in Egypt and has for decades. That the ruler has been cozy with the military and therefore safe has been the general rule. Morsi was not only not cozy but aggressively tried to sideline the military which made him unpopular with both the military and the people.

It doesn't matter who runs Egypt in the next few years. They're going to be unpopular because Egypt's economy is in a shambles largely due to excessive subsidies. They export oil but import gasoline because they don't have sufficient refining capacity, making fuel subsidies extremely expensive to maintain. They don't grow near enough grain to feed the population and have to import it at international market prices while subsidizing it to an enormous degree.

The military wants to keep the power but doesn't want to be the public face of it. They also don't want anyone remotely friendly with the insurgents in the Sinai in power (effectively ruling out Salafist candidates), and know that most secularists stand zero chance of doing anything more than spoiling a vote. This leaves the Muslim Brotherhood and allied smaller parties, which isn't really possible right now because they're boycotting anything political.

But in the absence of an overthrow of the military establishment (everyone from captains up and even most of the junior officers), the military isn't going anywhere, nor do about half the people want them to. They're seen as the protectors of the state, such as it is.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[shutdown -p now]

Even when the bad guy wins, it is better to respect the results of a democratic election.

This is only true when the elected bad guy himself respects the democratic institutions and free elections, which was not true in case of Muslim Brotherhood in power.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[gorzek]

The problem is that, in a country lacking a strong democratic tradition (i.e. Egypt), the democratic process is likely to be (and was being) subverted by whoever fills the power vacuum, in order to prevent ever being dislodged. The Muslim Brotherhood is radical and uncompromising. They were not interested in sharing power, nor are they interested in sharing it now that Morsi's government has been deposed. It's their way or the high way. Unfortunately, blocs that want power-sharing and compromise represent a minority of Egypt's fractious political allegiances.

It is difficult, to say the least, to have a country with a new democratic process actually stick with it long-term when such a form of government and civil society is not in their cultural DNA. It takes time to build that tradition to the point where you have stable, orderly transfers of power after elections. Look at the US: no matter how chaotic our election campaigns are, no matter how confused or bizarre, people do not end up taking to the streets to kill each other over them. At worst, we call upon the courts to resolve them and then live with that decision. We are invested in and believe in the process, even if we don't always like the results.

I'm not saying the coup (and it was a coup) was a good option. It may, however, have been the best of limited options. I suppose time will tell. You could argue that Egyptians should have waited until the Brotherhood outright canceled or rigged future elections before taking action, but then you and I are not the ones who have to live with the consequences of it, either way (unless you live in Egypt, in which case I apologize for speaking for you!)

It may be a long while before Egypt finds stability and reconciliation as they attempt to transition from one-party rule to plurality and compromise.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[rahvin112]

If you truly believe what you wrote you have no idea the steps Morsi was taking.

The brotherhood was inserting their members (who swear loyalty oaths to the leader) into every single government leadership position (including the ironic one of putting an Islamic leader responsible for the killing of tourists in charge of the main tourist area). In addition the brotherhood had begun inserting themselves into the military by insisting their members be appointed to ranking positions within the military.

The plan was to replace all the civil, democratic and military leadership with Brotherhood members. With a constitution that gave legal overrides to clerical leadership, all major positions dominated by brotherhood members and the upper military leadership in the hands of the military could you honestly say they didn't appear to be building a dictatorship under the guise of democracy?

Morsi and the brotherhood took over almost every civil institution and he had started the work of replacing the military leadership when the populace reached the point of no return and the multiple million people protests took place. The military leadership at that point had a public mandate to stop it.

Is it a coup? Yep. Did the people want it? Yea, almost everyone except for the 20% of the population that considers themselves Islamist. Can they form a working country without that 20%? I doubt it. Consensus and deal making is what will create a stable Egypt, until they realize that on both sides (military and Islamist) they won't go anywhere.

Revolutions are dirty slow things. The US revolution was super fast in that it only took a little more than a decade for a stable republic to start, and even then we had a civil war later because of unresolved issues the founders left for later generations to sort out. The French revolution was nearly 100 years of royalty, foreign invasion, emperors and failed republics before the modern French republic was birthed from the ashes. If Egypt can pull of a stable republic in 5 years they'll beat the odds. It's silly of anyone to think they are going to get it right on the first try.

It takes a long time for everyone to realize you can't sideline minorities and that everyones voice needs to be heard in government. The islamists sidelined the Christians and secularists. The Military is sidelining the Islamists. This will likely go back and forth a few times. Morsi outright lied in his campaign about what he would do. He couldn't win anything at this point because everyone knows the brotherhood will say anything to get elected.

  I pity the Egyptians, without Tourism they can not survive financially, there will be bread riots at some point in the future and it's going to be bad. Starving people are very destructive.

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[ph1ll]

You are aware that Morsi is not a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, right? (He is the leader of the Freedom and Justice Party that formed part of the coalition). Morsi was "not even the Muslim Brotherhood’s first choice for president".

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[abuelos84]

Well, the US could have just not backed the sociopathic military that for example ruled my country for decades (Argentina) killing tens of thousands...
Or more in the new millenium, Venezuela, Honduras, etc....
I'm not saying the rest of the world is pure angelic blowjobs, the soviets did some awful stuff quite similar to what you did to us...
But that doesn't change the fact that your govt conspired with military groups to commit crimes against humanity. Over and over...

Re:Maybe overturning an election

[abuelos84]

Uhm, Venezuela?
Like the country where the oposition was funded and coordinated from the US embassy?
Where they tried a coup, WHICH WAS RECOGNIZED AND PRAISED BY THE US like 5 minutes after they took (for a while) the presidential office?
Do we live in the same world?

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[Applekid]

Only a few hours ago NBC was reporting only 15-20. The same with Fox. And NBC and ABC.

At least they seem to be correcting their stories.

The problem with the "always on" news cycle is that fact-checking isn't part of it. They all want to be first to report, so if it's wrong, who cares, we'll patch it later.

It's this kind of speculative journalism that gives conspiracy theorists fuel for the shadowy figures in smokey rooms trope.

While certainly newsworthy

[axl917]

what does this have to do with Slashdot, really? We're not really a general news site.

they gotta learn from their own mistakes...

[Thud457]

oh yeah... we're all for "spreading Democracy", but then get our panties in a bunch when they democratically elect "DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN".

This is a military coup against a legitimately elected government.
The fact that 'merkins are askeered of the Muslim Brotherhood is beside the point.

Re:they gotta learn from their own mistakes...

[Anonymous Coward]

oh yeah... we're all for "spreading Democracy", but then get our panties in a bunch when they democratically elect "DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN".

This is a military coup against a legitimately elected government.
  The fact that 'merkins are askeered of the Muslim Brotherhood is beside the point.

Dude, tough titties that your anti-American Islamist heros got booted by the will of the Egyptian people themselves. But only after they pissed off most Egyptians by shutting down legislatures and other means of usurping power.

I know it's hard for your little brain to believe, but the US is not the source of all evil in the world.

Also, I'm curious. Since Islamists tend to execute gays under sharia and you're supportive of Islamists who want to impose sharia, is it OK for Christians to simply oppose gay marriage? Or do you express your support for radical Islamists out of childish, reflexive, unthinking, downright-fucking-reactionary anti-Americanism?

Re:IT IS AFRICA !! MURDEROUS CAMP RAIDS COMMON !!

[Nidi62]

Culturally Egypt is more aligned with the Middle East than the African continent. If you notice, the Middle East is always paired with North Africa (Egypt all the way to Morocco). North Africa vs. sub-Saharan Africa have far different political, socio-economic, and resource-use issues. Nice try on the troll though.

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[msobkow]

And it's no secret that the US is one of the only countries in the world who refuse to call this coup a coup.

Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count

[stoploss]

A military coup that's going to lead to civil war most likely.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.

I guess Egypt is on "ammo", then...

On behalf of the people of Egypt, Fuck You

[SuperKendall]

There was little to no chance of Morsi becoming a dictator.

Are you insane? Morsi fired the heads of the military and then declared himself and anything he did above the law.

He was trying to shift over all control of the military to himself, and also declared himself head of the courts and police...

He was utterly a dictator. Note that the military did not step in UNTIL the clear will of the people was evidenced in massive protests against Morsi - and even then the military gave Morsi a chance to back off the power grab, which he would not do.

What the military has done is protected democracy from a monster, and acted only on the will of a people. Someone like you would rather see Egypt fall into a thousand years of darkness as millions died, in order to protect something that was no longer there. Disgusting and utterly stupid.