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Amazon Forbids Crossing State Lines With Rented Textbooks
New submitter Galaga88 writes "In what is probably another attempt to evade charging sales tax, Amazon's terms of use through Warehouse Deals forbids crossing state lines with certain rented textbooks. The penalty for doing so? Retroactive forced purchase of the book. At least it's yours to keep afterwards. 'Some experts believe the policy is another reflection of the extreme lengths to which the company continues to go in order to avoid collecting state sales taxes. But could Amazon’s use restriction and other complicated rental conditions cause problems for students or lead potential textbook renters to take their business elsewhere? It seems like a policy that would be nearly impossible to enforce. But Richard Hershman, vice president of government relations at the National Association of College Stores, points out that if a student has textbooks sent to her home state and ships them back from a different state where she attends college, Amazon could easily note the new shipping location.'"
This sounds less like Amazon being evil and trying to hurt people. It sounds like they put that in to cover their butt. They don't have to deal with book makers saying they are "promoting" braking the law.
I'm sure I'm not alone in being fed the fuck up with corporations taking control of different aspects of our lives via unilateral contracts. I think it's high time we demand such obligations be banned, thus empowering consumers to at least have a little say in how a contract is worded and executed.
Unilateral contract == legalized rape entirely too often.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Seriously, or, I transferred to another college, why does Amazon care? If I rent from a physical location, and haul them myselves, does it matter to whom I rent them from?
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Amazon has become to powerfull and should be scaled down. I did business on Amazon and had constant problems with them. It didn't matter to them what a store's policy was, it was Amazon's way or nothing. They take a large cut on the purchase price and shipping fees which squeezes a vendor's profit many times to a few cents. Many things don't belong to Amazon at all, they just are the go-between seller a buyer. Amazon should fuck-off after a sale is made.
commuting students or even students in where a nearby road is the boarder.
Let me laugh harder. What lawyer decided that this would be a money-maker?
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
The beauty of having an epub reader is that I will never buy ebooks from Amazon.
See here: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/contract+of+adhesion
adhesion contract (contract of adhesion) n. a contract (often a signed form) so imbalanced in favor of one party over the other that there is a strong implication it was not freely bargained. Example: a rich landlord dealing with a poor tenant who has no choice and must accept all terms of a lease, no matter how restrictive or burdensome, since the tenant cannot afford to move. An adhesion contract can give the little guy the opportunity to claim in court that the contract with the big shot is invalid. This doctrine should be used and applied more often, but the same big guy-little guy inequity may apply in the ability to afford a trial or find and pay a resourceful lawyer.
In essence, the "lawyer" in this case for students would be a class-action lawyer, and now you understand why major corporations and the wealthy (who, in general control them through stock ownership) hate the idea of class action suits and have done their best to have forced arbitration, banning class actions and the like.
I'd rather we have class actions that slap down these corporations rather than have these sociopaths-by-design run amok. Call me a socialist if you will.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Explain to me how exactly they would enforce this policy? They have no idea where the book goes unless it's RFID tagged or something. You could take the book around the world and they would be none the wiser. Just make sure you return it on time and all is good.
Avoiding taxes is something I can support.
And this is why I never had any compunction about buying the "non-US" (drastically cheaper) versions of standard textbooks. The whole industry is scam, driven by the silly ways we fund education grants and loans.
The only two ways not to be in an eternal legal limbo with regards to eBooks are:
- don't use them.
- steal them.
Either way you know what's what.
Unless the textbook is 18-years old. Allowances will be made if you're only two or three years younger than the textbook.
"points out that if a student has textbooks sent to her home state and ships them back from a different state where she attends college, Amazon could easily note the new shipping location"
So they now want control of books that are moved from point A to B.
I agree that "fed up the with corporations trying to take control of different aspects of our lives via unilateral contracts" that are
unenforceable just to cover their butts and blame the customer for not obeying the unilateral contract.
That is why i will no longer buy digital books, mag, periodicals, etc.... hard copy versions only if available.
Again the more they screw with my rights the LESS i will buy and only if i can own it out right or can make a legal
copy to store on my own local devices, screw the cloud storage services, that's another business scam rant.
The last few comments I read seemed more about being mad about where you can carry books and misunderstanding, thinking the book carrying thing is something Amazon did to "Make more yummy money".
To "evade" taxes is illegal. But to "avoid" taxes is legal.
Even a "tax shelter" that avoids paying 100% of tax might be legal, depending on circumstances.
There is wide agreement that taxes discourage people from certain behaviors, and tax breaks encourage people to do whatever gives the tax break. So, for example, J. Random Person could invest in solar panels on the roof of his home, and potentially get enough of a tax credit to offset his tax liability.
Should we be angry that someone paid no taxes? The tax break on solar panels was there to encourage people to invest in solar panels, and J. Random Person did that. This is the system working as intended. Society wanted to encourage more solar panels, and more solar panels were in fact installed.
Now, consider Amazon. The current weird tax system is the law of the land. (I think a "flat tax" with no exceptions would have many good features, but it's just a fantasy at this point. We are so far from a flat tax that it's really not worth discussing.) If Amazon can do some weird thing like banning interstate use of rented books, and the tax system is currently set up to reward that, then I don't blame Amazon for doing it.
If you don't like it, maybe you should tell your elected representatives that you would like to see changes in the way sales tax works.
P.S. I am not claiming that the current sales tax system was intentionally set up to encourage Amazon to take these steps. The tax code is so convoluted now that weird corner-cases must be expected. But whether this was intended or not, if that's what the law encourages Amazon to do, and we don't change the law, we shouldn't be surprised if Amazon does this.
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
So, what then for cases like Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, Washington? They both are reasonably sized cities which border each other on a state line, effectively creating a single metropolitan area. Many sleep in Vancouver, yet live their lives in Portland; and, of course, vice versa.
That "ridiculous lawmaking" is state and local governments trying to collect sales taxes.
No, that's state and local governments trying to coerce corporations into collecting sales tax for them, when there is already a use tax law, and it's the state and local governments job to do the collecting.
Unfortunately between Geo-location based on IP address and GPS it wouldn't take long to establish if someone is outside of state lines. There are problems with either method of course. IP based addressing isn't very helpful behind a gateway, and isn't always 100% accurate. GPS chips can give false readings for any number of reasons. Neither method is foolproof to a level good enough to be able to automatically charge someone money.
My concerns go beyond this being heavy handed. What kinds of checks and balances are in the system? What measures are taken to ensure that a single set of false readings isn't going to cost someone a lot of money? Are warnings given before someone is billed? Region locks were bad enough, but things like this point to the adage that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. The whole thing crosses the line.
Amazon will be collecting sales tax in Georgia starting 9/1, and I expect the other states will fall soon. So pooh-pooh on your sales tax theory.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
Make the e-book of lesser ( or no ) value in many cases.
When do they start doing it with purchased books?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If these are textbooks how are they tracking them gps, rfid, ip address when rented (the most stupid way of all) or is this just some stupid rule that can be easily gotten around (Take the books where needed than later ship them back from the original state)
The online sales the states must tax are intrastate. Interstate is still the problem for states and vendors alike (The new law requiring collection notwithstanding.), But the federal government clearly can tax such commerce -- electronic or otherwise. It is established law.
A Value Added Tax is a very fair kind of tax that only taxes the end consumer. (Fair being a relative term here.) It is an account-book pass through so it does not hurt sales up and down a supply chain. That is, VAT does not get written into the price and so with a VAT you do not wind up taxing tax in subsequent sales (with old fashioned sales tax you do). Some things (typically educational materials) are VAT exempt. And different classes of goods are taxed at different rates. The federal government could easily get vendors to collect such a tax universally online and then the USG could redistribute it to the states using a formula based on population. Or on internet sales dollars per capita. Or something.Or, as a nation, we could use the money and earmark it for improvements to our network. Or both. A VAT is a much different tax than a simple regressive sales tax which actually constipates the supply conduit.
Europe uses VATs to collect national taxes on consumption, which captures revenues from people who otherwise do not pay income taxes (in paces like Italy this is just about everyone -- or was.). A big gripe by the US rich is that such a large percentage of people pay no federal taxes when really they earn enough to do so, but off the books. Did you fix cars on the side for undeclared cash and use the money to buy a big-screen TV? With VAT Uncle Sam will at least get a little bite. And fair enough at that. IMHO A VAT in internet sales makes sense now that online retail has matured. And rather than a primitive sales tax a VAT is just a more nuanced solution. I imagine Mr Bezos will think otherwise and he has just bought Washington DC's hometown newspaper to allow him to subtly press his points home. Of course if you are a no-new-taxes-ever kind of person then such an idea is poison. It would go nowhere in the current House of Reps. But things will change at some point.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
This article is another dribbling piece of FUD. Amazon can say what it likes in its contracts and TOS agreements, but its words, no matter how much legalise they use, cannot deactivate general legal rights. If an individual rents a textbook, that individual is free to travel wherever they like in the USA without potential penalty.
Amazon is NOT engaged in games with ordinary customers- they can go ahead and ignore the smallprint, and rely on their legal rights as consumers instead. Amazon instead is engaged in games with the government, book publishers, and corporate customers. The business model of the ebook is still too new for all the 'kinks' to have been worked out. Apple is in court over its disgusting price-fixing con for this very reason.
The government DEMANDS that the relationship between companies and ordinary citizens be reasonable, simple, and respectful. The government DEMANDS that companies never give ordinary citizens the impression they need to be lawyers in order to be safe consumers. Despite what your Yank TV shows tell you, Law is not a game.
PS obviously if your rental agreement involves future payments to keep the copy of the textbook, each new payment may fall under the mandate of the State in which the copy currently resides, but what would be odd about that?
Some experts believe the policy is another reflection of the extreme lengths to which the company continues to go in order to avoid collecting state sales taxes.
This from TFS.
Sorry, but I was very much on-topic, Mr Moderator. And in order to remain on-topic, I invite you to try and explain why Amazon would suddenly be required to pay sales tax in the scenario I described.
Never seen so many people anxious to be charged a new tax.
The area I live in is defined by mountain ranges, and the communities are along the river. The State boundary is on one side of that river, but it doesn't stop school districts from being comprised of communities from both sides, because that's how the communities are defined. There's also a College on one side and many of the students rent apartments on the other.
But, hey, maybe this says more about States than it does about Amazon.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I'm going to rent $50,000 worth of Textbooks. When they come in; I'll pack them in my car and drive across 10 states... all the way to Seattle, Washington, to return them in person.
Of course they won't be able to charge my CC $50,000, and they won't have a chance of collecting payment for the books in full.
Who's with me?
OK... well maybe not... for those of you who aren't that courageous.... rent a few books, take them across state lines maybe, take photos of the whole thing... Go back home, return them, and don't tell Amazon a thing about it. Post on Twitter long afterwards.
In fact.... take 'em across state lines as frequently as possible. Especially if you go to school in a different state than your mailing address?
Although I really see no difficulty: rent a PO box at school and tell Amazon to use the mailing address in whichever state you school at -- or use a mail forwarding service. Then you can receive the books anywhere, without having to transport them across state lines. Just be sure to mail them back in the same place you got them.
There's no need to tell Amazon about it at all.. is there. Just don't reveal the fact that you are at school out of state, and don't do something dumb like mailing them back in from an out of state address ----- although I suspect once you've boxed them up it's OKAY.
Otherwise... how could you possibly return them? The address you are returning them to by mail is probably across state lines; so you will be violating the agreement from the second you put them in the mailbox at home?
But Richard Hershman, vice president of government relations at the National Association of College Stores, points out that if a student has textbooks sent to her home state and ships them back from a different state where she attends college, Amazon could easily note the new shipping location.
I'm sure Amazon will start tracking this shit. Does Amazon give a fuck where a return was sent from? Do they even look? I'm sure everything gets dumped by the truckload into their return centre by FedEx or UPS or whomever, and that's the end of anyone giving a shit about shipping in that process.
Keep on knockin'
https://robbiecrash.me
So if my daughter, who goes to college in Boston, rents books there, and then brings the books home during a vacation, she if violating the contract. That is ridiculous.
As for taxes, the online sellers should definitely have to pay sales taxes, but there is a more general issue. I hate sales taxes because they are regressive. If I had my way, the only taxes I would have would be income taxes. The tax rate would be base on amount of income regardless of source. This means that wages, dividends, capital gains, etc. would all be taxed at the same rate. I would eliminate FICA taxes as separate taxes, and allocate a percentage of all taxes paid to pay for Social Security and Medicare. The same strict rules would apply to corporate taxes, and all income, including offshore earnings would be taxed. Companies like GE would have to pay their fair share of income taxes. (GE has avoided paying any federal income taxes for several years.)
Sounds more like pressure from the textbook companies. They have made it near impossible to obtain recent or like-new textbooks on the secondary market. They even pressured eBay into restricting teacher editions of books being sold because the teacher's unions have a hateboner for homeschoolers or parents that want to supplement their child's education. They seriously said allowing the books to openly be sold would just let kids get the answer to every test.. because the teachers can't be bothered to make their own damn test.
If there's one this history has taught us, it's that giving more power to the government always results in more freedom!
Wait, no, no, that's never happened.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
when you can download them on The Pirate Bay and other sites for free?
Man, I wish there were tablets and modern internet when I studied. It would have saved me a lot of money on books and a lot of carrying bags with heavy books in it.
This is not Amazon's job to enforce. If sales tax is due then it is up to the consumer to declare it on their return.
Will there be checkpoints at state borders to scan RFID tags in the books? If I rented one of these books and took it to college in another state, will the campus scan the RFID tag?
Class action suit against diamond sellers? I got a check for ~$140
Class action suit against credit card banks RE overseas interest/fees? I got a check for ~$40
That was just in the past 6 months or so. And, even if the lawyers get a big chunk, I did nothing to help my case, got some money I wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and the jerk company(s) had to fork out a bunch of loot, which hurts them. So you keep opting out. More money for the rest of us.