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Ask Slashdot: Experiences Working At a High-Profile Game Studio?
msheekhah writes "I have a friend who, when he gets out of college, has been promised a job at well known electronics company with a salary around $70k. However, he wants to instead go work for Blizzard or some other game company as a game programmer. I've read enough on here and on other tech websites to know that he should take the job he's been offered. Can you share with me your experiences so I can give him real life examples to convince him to take this job? If your experience is contrary to mine, I'd appreciate that input as well."
Game development sounds fun because games are fun.
Like how being a prostitute sounds fun because having sex is fun.
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I have a few friends who worked for the bigger companies and their experiences were pretty uniformly miserable. One worked directly for a big company and even though he could make opengl dance they had him working on what was basically build scripting. The others worked for game companies that did the porting of the larger games to the lower tier platforms such as the DS. These companies put a huge amount of effort into glamour (highly photogenic workspaces) but were just thankless sweatshops with the few owners being the only ones making any money.
That said, their resumes now have a golden game programming glow. So they have been able to go out into the indy/startup world and be treated like kings. Way way better than some third rate "game programming" degree or diploma program.
It's really simple:
If you have a job, you can get a job.
If you don't have a job, getting a job is harder.
"Promised" is an elusive word, but assuming that the $70K offer comes thru, why not take it unless he has a gaming company offer in hand? which I assume he doesn't. It's always a good thing to be able to afford housing and food while looking for the job of one's choice.
Besides, he might be surprised, and like the promised job. (Or, it might be a small step above a Siberian work camp. One never really knows about these things until one tries it; but of course the same goes for the "dream" job at a gaming company!)
the path that makes him happy.
Based on the experiences of some colleagues, I've avoided getting involved with gaming companies. First, there's tremendous pressure any time a new release goes out. Developers, admins, etc. are all expected to be available around the clock (with many choosing to sleep at the office) for weeks. Second, game popularity is very fickle. Working on a game that loses popularity? Pink slip. Some people view game studios as sexy and edgy, which is fine. Young, single people can afford to take risks that people with families and mortgages just can't afford.
Having left Blizzard in the last year I can say that it was once a really awesome place to be! Just not any more sadly. The politics have stunted too many people's ability to get things done. On top of that revenue is down so the idea of "low base pay with more from profit sharing" doesn't make up for how overly stressful things are. That said, working somewhere where the other "perks" of the Blizzard Culture aren't apparent will make working for a game studio a bit better; just have a decent savings account first and be ready to work twice as much for half the pay you used to get. From my friends that decided to say in the industry many are going to indie developers or starting their own small game companies so they can get back to what they really wanted to do in the first place: make games! On my end I've just created a bit of a "gamer culture" on the engineering teams I've started since I left to get the best of both worlds. My suggestion would really be to take the decent paying job for a few years while making some indie games on the side to make sure that they really want to make games for a living.
Does he have a piece of paper in his hand from this mythical company that clearly states they are offering him a job and what the compensation will be? Does he have one from Blizzard? The correct choice is whichever of these two he can say "yes" to.
If your friend doesn't have this dubious "$70k as a college graduate" offer/promise on paper, signed, and in his possession , then such a position doesn't exist. Period. If he believes otherwise, he's gonna have a bad time.
"So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
The guy isn't exactly wanting to go into drugs or some such. Nothing good will come from trying to interfere with him. If he never starts at the game industry he will always keep some romantic vision of how it would be.
Going into game dev can be a tough choice, but if that's what he wants to do there isn't much you can do about it.
Let him work it out himself if it is for him, he will find out the reality soon enough after starting there. Also, if he can get 70k offers now, I'm sure he will be okay after a year at a gamestudio finding a new job too.
Even better than that is the incongruence of
I've read enough on here and on other tech websites to know... If your experience is contrary to mine, I'd appreciate that input as well.
Is OP only interested in hearing from people who've read that working in the games industry can be fun, or does he actually want to hear from people who've done it?
(For what it's worth, I spent five years working in the games industry, and the two years at Jagex was the best job I've had. I'm no longer in games, but it still winds me up when people think that everywhere is as bad as EA).
I had an offer from Bioware that I ended up passing on because I had another offer from another company to do full time iOS development which is what I really wanted to do. A friend of mine ended up taking the same job at Bioware that I had been offered. I left a year later. His experiences can best be summed up in a single line from a chat he and I had one time -- "they cancelled Christmas" ... he had been working 80hr weeks for almost a year by that point. I felt like I dodged a bullet.
If writing games is your passion, and you can't live without it, and you don't mind doing it ALL the time, then that is the only time I would say it's okay to work for a games company. If you do, try to find an indy shop that works a sustainable pace. The other downside is that the people working there were very grouchy and mean. Not a happy place.
I'd say your friend is quite fortunate to be wanted straight out of college, but here's the thing: the electronics company only PROMISED him a job when he graduates. As the old adage goes: promises are made to be broken...and in the tech world, so are verbal agreements and temp jobs.
SHOULD the electronics company follow through, he should still take the job, and find satisfaction in getting whatever real-world experience he can get out of it!
I had this idealistic dream of working for Blizzard, EA, etc..and you know what I discovered after I went through the endless programming challenges and interviews with them? Some things:
1) Game companies want MIT-level knowledge, but pay out retarded salaries for the talent, and work the talent to death...all for the glory of being THAT guy that worked on a AAA title
2) For each big game title on a store shelf at Fry's, I see 20 more titles collecting dust
You know what I say to that? BIG WHOOP!
A lot of game technologies are also used in many set-top-boxes, cinema, scientific programming, TV..and (some of) these companies PAY!
Games are interesting pieces of software, but I would rather work on the underlying technologies that make a game come together.
Now, for those game technologists that say I can't hack it, I'd be happy to show you my Linked in profile...I've worked at some NICE companies too, doing similar stuff. I'm allowed to my opinion too ;-)
Now, in the general tech world, job-hunting is almost as competitive as in game world. One really needs to be on top of their programming game with certain companies, and you even have to have some charisma too while interviewing.
Now, if your friend's job lead fizzles with the electronics company, then I'd say he should really pursue Blizzard and follow his dreams. However, dream jobs are still...jobs. He should really think about building up his professional programming experience, and work in the sub-domain he loves.
He'll eventually get there, if he gives it time and determination.
Good luck to him!
11 year veteran here - I've worked in a number of roles at an independent studio (as a programmer), and my advice to anyone wanting to make games is this: it's hard bloody work, which doesn't pay that much, and you'd be better off working on your own games in your own time. Very rarely do you get to work on games that you are interested in, the last project I was on was a Disney game with a MASSIVE budget. It was hell on earth and I got pretty down about my job - to the point where I considered quitting without having secured another job first. On the plus side - I have gained experience in working with large, complex code bases, and worked under tight deadlines with hardly any budget. I've accepted a programming job outside of games, and I'm counting down the days until I leave.
Well, I'm sort of in the same situation. Except that in my case, my friends and I decided to start our own company. We're building a MMO. No publishers.
We're not just out of college, we're veterans in a number of fields, and this is my point.
Education is transferable. If you know how to code, you can start in a good job, and move over later. Or, even better, do your own game. If it was art, I'd say, join a studio. But for coding? Sadly, you're replaceable. But you can replace them as well.
If you've got a good offer, go for it, but don't kill yourself. Go for the job, spend a year or two, and if you don't like it, move on, then come back as a more experienced person, and get back in higher in the food chain. Just out of college is a great time to try out something risky, that looks great on the resume.
But don't let them abuse you. Work hard, work well, but you are not a chew toy. The one thing most people right out of college miss, though, is that every project has to be finished and polished to be done. The stuff you do for class is under too tight a deadline to actually finish, you just get it working. This stuff, follow through on. Ask your boss about what I mean, if you get the job - knowing to ask that question can mark you as someone with a future.
I've had some good education from the following books:
Making Fun is a book about how a game is put together, the various jobs that exist and how they relate.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007RV3UTS/ref=oh_d__o08_details_o08__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Interactive Entertainment is a book about the life cycle of a game, and the various fields of gaming that exist.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041T4HG4/ref=oh_d__o07_details_o07__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Level Up! is a book on game design. Once you know about what a game is, and how it's put together, this is pretty handy to dig style with.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046REX10/ref=oh_d__o02_details_o02__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They're all a little generic, but they're also solid starting points.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046REX10/ref=oh_d__o02_details_o02__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
(For those curious about my personal project, it's a spiritual successor to City of Heroes. The MAN shut it down. Well, we can make our own game! With blackjack! And... forget the blackjack. With superheroes! And costumes! And all kinds of awesome stuff. And the best part is that in the ten years since CoH launched, the industry's come a long way - we can do all kinds of crazy stuff now.)
( www.missingworldsmedia.com if you're interested. )
As someone who recently start working for a game studio that is profitable, incredibly player-focussed and protects its culture with both hands, I just want to say that genuinely good opportunities do still exist in the gaming industry - though it would be disingenuous to pretend that they're the norm.
However, more fundamentally, forget gaming or any other domain for a second and demand that the people you work with embody and project as much of the following as possible...
integrity
compassion
kindness
a determination to cross the finish-line together
enthusiasm for the work
intelligence and the ability to use it constructively
an expectation of open feedback in all directions
an effortless affection (or fondness if you don't like 'affection') for those around them
charity of spirit (never starting with the assumption that 'the other guy' is an asshole when things go wrong)
These are a few of my favourite things :-) and looking for them wherever I go has had an extremely positive effect on my quality of life and the quality of life for those in my care (both professionally and personally).
... take the bird in the hand (the job offered).... then work at the company making money and gaining reputable XP while trying to apply to blizzard and get in there....
Nobody is going to think less of you for working in your field. If anything, the xp will only help validate your friends' skillset and give more power to the application to blizzard.
Also, who the hell considers turning down a job offer in this economy? I had to win a grant to get my job.
A gaming job wouldn't necessarily suck, not if it were at Bethesda or something. At Blizzard it would suck.
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I say keep striving for what you want.
Maybe you should let your friend do what the hell they want and stop being such a busybody? You're not his mom. Maybe the electronics job would suck, maybe the gaming job would suck, you're not in a position to judge.
He's a friend. Do you have friends? Do you care about your friends? Do your friends care about you? If you saw a friend making what you think might be a mistake, wouldn't you perhaps talk to them. If your friends saw you making what to them might be a mistake, wouldn't you want them to talk to you?
Of course, if all you have is acquaintances, then, hey, you're not their mom, what do you care if they make a mistake. (and hey, they're not your mom, what do they care about you if you make a mistake).
Personally, I can understand where the Original Poster is coming from. He's a friend to his friend. It's what friends do.
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
In the US, people refer to university and college are interchangeable terms. Normally, when we say "straight out of college" we mean graduating with a bachelor's degree.
Most gaming jobs seem to suck though. Bigger companies would suck in different ways than smaller companies though. Ie, you're poor because the big company is stingy with payroll, versus you're poor because the tiny company has no revenue, and at either place you will be on a forced death march because it is always crunch time. New grads are basically cheap labor who don't have the experience necessary to switch to less exploitive jobs. On the other hand, it beats being an IT jockey doing user help desk.
If someone likes making games then this can be done as after hours as a hobby; write open source, create mods, etc.
Write a web game, post it online.
Contribute to an open source game, be able to point to the github repo or list of contributors or whatever.
When I was interviewing people for a gaming studio, we had people do both, and they both looked very good on the resume -- they show both your technical skills, and your passion for gaming. You are clearly excited enough about this to go do it in your spare time, which means a lot!
And make your own software on the side. Don't do games, though, unless they're butt simple and sell like hotcakes. You have magical powers. Know this --> You can create a product that can be reproduced for no cost. Go for the largest number of customers and where you stand a chance to compete in the current market.
I have worked at 3 game studios - Amaze Entertainment (now Griptonite), Sony Online Entertainment, and now Microsoft. I've worked on the PSP, PS3, PC, and Xbox One. I have worked on relatively short cycle year long games as the main programmer, I've written back end software for MMOs as a core-tech guy (mostly removed from the game) and as a part of the game team. I've worked on more MMO titles than most devs.
The closer you are to the game, the more hours you're going to work. SOE was particularly bad - I worked there for 6 years and only had a single real raise. The first two years was on a core tech team that was really awesome. My manager was super experienced, and we set time lines and expectations for raises, and he followed through. I learned a lot, and was making my way up. But then the team evaporated and I was put directly on a game team. I was promised bonuses that regularly fell through. "When we hit Alpha in June, you'll all get bonuses!" - Great! Oh... the game doesn't hit Alpha in June? Well, there goes June.. July... August... Game gets a facelift... Alpha the next year in June! Or July, or August. Get used to that. And promotions? Few and far between, and they always pull the "no promotions until we ship" card, which if you're working on a 6-year long dev cycle for an MMO doesn't make sense. I don't know of a single programmer who got a promotion while at SOE for the last 4 years when I was working there. At most places, if you're not directly on a team, you get a standard bonus at the end of the fiscal year - it's not huge, but it's pretty reliable. If you are on a game team, you get milestone bonuses instead, which get pushed around, and without fail they always claim that the parking lot will be filled with Ferrari's.
Management is usually bad. My last boss seemed bipolar about my performance. One month it was "Great! On track for a promotion at alpha!" to "We really expect you to put in 60 hours a week." When you're young and fresh into the industry, don't have a wife or kids, you can do 60 hours a week. But you're going to feel miserable doing it when you're trying to have a reasonable work/life balance, and with experience you'll realize that 60-hour weeks for a year is not sustainable. There was a month when I did 90+ hours every week to help a project ship on time - I didn't get a bonus, didn't get any time off, nothing, even though my manager for the project praised my work.
Of course, there is a reason I still work in games. The most passionate programmers are working in games. You get to do something you absolutely love, with really smart people, and make pretty good money doing it. At Microsoft I'm a bit more removed from the game team - which means I do my 40 and I go home. I think that you have to strive to find the balance that you want. I can't see myself ever trading my job for some boring programming position outside of games.
-Bill
I've been keeping up on the discussion and I guess I'll have to now put myself in the "see both sides" camp as well...
See, I came from a small farming town in the midwest, and I had friends who, while trying to be a 'good friend' actually held me back intellectually...their advice sometimes narrowed my horizons...
However, in my life (and I suspect but can't prove that it'll be true for everyone) that the net effect of my friend's advice has been decidedly positive.
See, I also had a friend back home who gave me the "Good Will Hunting" speech...like when Ben Affleck's construction worker tells Damon's character, "If you're still around here in 10 years, fuck you...get out and do something..."
So...yes...some friends are better than others, but we learn to weight their advice accordingly...
Thank you Dave Raggett