Ask Slashdot: Experiences Working At a High-Profile Game Studio?

What does the job entail? by mwvdlee · 2013-08-17 05:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

Game development sounds fun because games are fun.
Like how being a prostitute sounds fun because having sex is fun.

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Re:What does the job entail? by godrik · 2013-08-17 06:00 · Score: 1

I had not laugh thatmuch in a while. Thank you! :)
Re: What does the job entail? by Chelloveck · 2013-08-17 06:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Tru dat. I've worked at two large game companies. Developing games is sweatshop work. But a guy's gotta follow his dreams! If he's already been offered a job he'll be able to find another one if a gaming gig doesn't work out. Now's the time, when he's young and relatively responsibility-free.

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Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Re:What does the job entail? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 06:46 · Score: 1

Like how being a prostitute sounds fun because having sex is fun.
When I visit them, they always make a point of telling me how much fun they had ;-)
Re:What does the job entail? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 07:38 · Score: 1

There is actually a fair amount of research in this area. It's not at all as clean cut as you make it sound. But there is quite some surprising data in the research, if you bother to read it.
Another weird thing is that there is very little research done regarding male prostitutes (except the fact that male prostitution is often more common than female).
It's sometimes hard to let preconceived notions go, and this area seems to be one of the worst in that regard.
Re: What does the job entail? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 07:43 · Score: 1

The hardest part of customer service is bring nice to those that don't deserve it. :(
Re:What does the job entail? by Xyrus · 2013-08-17 07:56 · Score: 2

Game development sounds fun because games are fun.
Like how being a prostitute sounds fun because having sex is fun.
Yep. The "game industry glow" wears off pretty damn quick when you're working non-stop 80 hour work weeks. I don't really miss having a sleeping bag by my desk, the perpetual deadlines, low pay, crap benefits, vacations you were never allowed to take, and all the other crap from the game industry. Yeah, it's cool to see your game on the shelf and if you're lucky, good game reviews but that is a small consolation for basically being a sweatshop slave.
The first job I got after leaving the games industry doubled my salary, gave me real benefits, and had me working standard 40 hour work weeks.

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~X~
Re: What does the job entail? by slart42 · 2013-08-17 08:04 · Score: 4, Informative

After reading several comments that game industry jobs are all sweatshop work, I thought I might share my (different) experience. I work at Unity, so not exactly a games company, but game industry anyways. I've been here for quite a few years no and have always been (and I still am) very happy about my work. While everybody has done overtime work to get urgent fixes done at some time or other, this is not the rule, and we are far from the working conditions in many places described here. The development team has a great culture, we get to work on exciting stuff, and we get plenty of opportunities to try out things which interest us -- as a rule, similar to Google's "20% time", we have FAFF (fridays are for fun) to work on pet projects, as well as regular Hack Weeks, were the whole dev team is brought in to one location to form teams to try new ideas. It's fun.
If you're interested, check out http://unity3d.com/jobs/ - but then, I guess your chances of being hired for an engineering position when fresh out of colleges are somewhat slim, unless you have done some really awesome stuff besides your education. But that will not be any different in any of the other larger companies in the industry.
Re:What does the job entail? by larry+bagina · 2013-08-17 08:22 · Score: 1

Yeah, and the funeral director tells me how sorry he is.

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Re: What does the job entail? by eulernet · 2013-08-17 09:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm an ex-game programmer, and what you say is not supported by my experience.
Developing a framework is totally different than releasing games.
When you work on a framework, you spend a lot of time on the same project, by incrementally adding new features.
Quality is very important, so you must spend most of your time building quality, by writing tests and writing optimized code.
You also have direct contact with your customers.
When you program games, what is important is the delivery date, especially in large game companies.
Quality is not really important, and all the conception is already done before the game started, so there is not a lot of place for innovation.
Porting games is mostly what large game companies do, since you cannot rely on a single console to earn money.
And when you write games nowadays, your job as a coder is mostly using libraries, because a game is too much work if rewritten from scratch.
The "fun" part as a coder is to write your own routines, so that you master everything, when you rely on a library, you always expect bugs.
And the "fun" part as a gamer is to fine-tune the game, and this is the most tedious task !
Re: What does the job entail? by gmueckl · 2013-08-17 09:37 · Score: 1

Well, at Unity you are in the cozy position of not having to work much on actual games. Game studios have a lot of shit going down because of the creative and economic aspects of games. Game engines are sort of decoupled from that. Consider yourself lucky in that regard!
Also, you guys at Unity are doing great work.

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Re:What does the job entail? by Dogtanian · 2013-08-17 10:10 · Score: 2

Yep. The "game industry glow" wears off pretty damn quick when you're working non-stop 80 hour work weeks. I don't really miss having a sleeping bag by my desk, the perpetual deadlines, low pay, crap benefits, vacations you were never allowed to take, and all the other crap from the game industry. Yeah, it's cool to see your game on the shelf and if you're lucky, good game reviews but that is a small consolation for basically being a sweatshop slave.
You don't actually say it, but this relates to what- as I understand it- is the biggest problem with the games industry in general. In general, it's a "dream job" for young people who've grown up with computer games, and now have the opportunity to be involved in "making" them. Of course, the reality- as others have mentioned- is that a lot of computer game development is monotonous, separated from the design side and poorly paid for what it requires. But the fact is that there will always be college/uni-age students who want to do that, regardless.

Being young, they're also likely to accept longer hours and put up with more bullshit and manipulation, because they're young and can afford to dedicate themselves like that, but also because they're (in general) likely to be less confident about standing up for themselves, as well as being naive to the cynicism of the industry. They'll also tolerate the low pay and long hours because they're getting a chance at following their dream career.

Eventually, as with you, the novelty wears off, they realise it's not what it was cracked up to be. But, of course, there are always masses of recent graduates in your earlier position willing to tolerate it (as you once were). So, if you're sick of the low pay, long hours and generally not willing to accept the BS, the problem is that you're competing against your "younger selves" who *are*.

I know that there are people who *do* continue working in the games industry and really enjoy it, but I suspect they're people who know the ins and outs well, know what they're doing and/or have found a niche that serves them well within the industry.

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Re:What does the job entail? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 11:49 · Score: 1

(except the fact that male prostitution is often more common than female).
There aren't enough [citation needed]s in the world for this one...
Re: What does the job entail? by SirSlud · 2013-08-17 16:09 · Score: 3, Informative

I work for one of the top 5 developers on console games, as a programmer. Are there crunch times? Yes. Do you get comp time? Yes. I'm going to be taking 35 days vacation this fall. The work itself is vastly more interesting and personally rewarding (to me) than working on business intelligence software, which is probably where I'd be otherwise.
You get what you put into it, and you also get what you put up with. I don't recommend that anybody sacrifice their quality of life simply to be in games, and certainly some studios are worse than others, but in making games for 9 years, if you can put up with a some crunch every year or two, it can be a really fun job. Just put up resistance if you're being treated unfairly (80 hour work weeks? Never.) .. once you get some experience, you can move around. The entire industry is a game of musical chairs, so you should be able to find something at your 'pressure' level. Some people will put up with those insane for the privilege of working on a GTA title, but there is plenty of middle ground.
And as somebody else pointed out above, just because you like playing games (or even making them for yourself) doesn't necessarily mean you'll like making them in the AAA game space. I just wrapped up a title where the credits take about 40 minutes to watch, so there are lots of considerations in terms of how much time you're willing to put in, how much individual credit you're looking for, etc.

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"Old man yells at systemd"
Re:What does the job entail? by Assmasher · 2013-08-18 00:41 · Score: 1

Where do I send royalties for using that analogy in the future?
Cheers for hitting that right on the head...

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Re:What does the job entail? by tlhIngan · 2013-08-19 03:30 · Score: 1

Generally speaking, the game industry is stratified. If you start at the bottom, you're pretty much stuck with the crap. High turnover, crap work, little room for advancement. Basically the treadmill for the "I w4nn4 m4k3 g4m3z!" folks who see all the glamour and all that and who are too young (or stupid) to realize so does everyone else who grew up with video games.
However, if you start with a portfolio of games, you already know you won't take crap so you get into the design and high level architecture and direction of the game. Which is where everyone wants to be - making the bigger bucks and less grunt work.
Of course, to get there requires... a portfolio of games. Which can be either mods of existing games, or games you developed yourself. And it's never been easier - between PC, iOS and Android (if you plan on developing for consoles, iOS is more instructive on the whole approval thing), getting your game "out there" is possible.
And remember - once you've done the grunt work and have gone through and made games, the studios all know you won't take crap and do 80 hour weeks of QA or stuff for below minimum wage (salary, remember).
So... take the $70k job, use your spare time to create your own games. If they get popular, the studios will contact YOU and make you sweet deals because they know what you're used to and that you won't take abuse.

Not me but friends by EmperorOfCanada · 2013-08-17 05:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have a few friends who worked for the bigger companies and their experiences were pretty uniformly miserable. One worked directly for a big company and even though he could make opengl dance they had him working on what was basically build scripting. The others worked for game companies that did the porting of the larger games to the lower tier platforms such as the DS. These companies put a huge amount of effort into glamour (highly photogenic workspaces) but were just thankless sweatshops with the few owners being the only ones making any money.

That said, their resumes now have a golden game programming glow. So they have been able to go out into the indy/startup world and be treated like kings. Way way better than some third rate "game programming" degree or diploma program.

Re:Not me but friends by interval1066 · 2013-08-17 05:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have a friend who worked for Zynga during the high-flyin' days; she worked on Farmville. Said it was a sweat shop and the management were terrible overlords. Same thing from another friend at EA, again, during EA's salad days. But then I have another friend who works for Valve and he says its great there. So, I guess you kind of have to get lucky. As for the comment above that goes along the lines of "he's lucky to have an offer at $70K", that seems kind of low. If he knows GL native code or ActiveX, either managed or native, he doesn't have to take that offer, he can get more from someone else.

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Re:Not me but friends by binarylarry · 2013-08-17 06:08 · Score: 2

Haha, ActiveX, hells yeah!

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Re:Not me but friends by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 06:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

I completely disagree, coming right out of college and getting 70k is actually damn good. He has no experience and yet they're willing to pay him that? I suppose it depends on which city he is at, though. But, even in expensive L.A. I know developers who make around that who have experience. Though, I suppose it could be potentially low. Just remember, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. He could apply at Blizzard, get turned away, and then lose the offer and end up sitting on his ass for a year which leaves a big gaping hole in your resume and makes you nigh unemployable. Take the job, and apply at Blizzard. If Blizzard accepts, be a douche and jump ship. Companies have no loyalty to us and can drop our asses at any time for no good reason and they often do, we should have no loyalty to them either. If Blizzard does not accept, you're still making money in the interim and getting great experience. Pad that resume, and you'll look better and better to future employers. If you end up staying at the company every year you get a 4% to 5% raise (assuming you're doing well), after a decade that adds up. Not to mention you'll have benefits in the meantime; insurance (you may be young, but anyone can be hit by a bus or experience health problems), 401k w/ matching (e.g. free money), life insurance (if you met a girl and made her your wife in college and she's having your baby, this is handy), etc.
Re:Not me but friends by bananaquackmoo · 2013-08-17 06:29 · Score: 1

I have no idea why you got modded down. If I had mod points today I would definitely mod you up.
Re:Not me but friends by jimshatt · 2013-08-17 07:32 · Score: 1

I'm sure he meant DirectX. But still funny :)
Re:Not me but friends by interval1066 · 2013-08-17 08:18 · Score: 2

yeah yeah, directx. that's what I get for mentioning a technology I have very little experience with.

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Re:Not me but friends by interval1066 · 2013-08-17 08:20 · Score: 1

I completely disagree, coming right out of college and getting 70k is actually damn good.
Not around here, 70K is actually a low end figure. Coming right out of college or not, they're actually favoring new college grads. Come to sillicon valley and see what nonsense is going on here, with new grad & h1b recruiting. Its a fucking slaughterhouse.

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Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:Not me but friends by SydShamino · 2013-08-17 16:00 · Score: 1

That's because you have to pay to live in Silicon Valley.
For the same salary he'll have a significantly higher standard of living in, say, Austin, assuming he's willing to live in Austin.

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Re:Not me but friends by SirSlud · 2013-08-17 16:15 · Score: 1

Knowing GL/DirectX is pretty meaningless in games unless you're looking to be hired as a graphics programmer. Even more interesting these days is that as more of the gaming experience moves online, we're seeing fairly traditional skillsets such as DBA or server side programming become much more in demand. It all depends on what you want to do *on* a game development team. Knowing graphics programming doesn't guarantee you a job anymore than being demonstrably skilled in any other facet of game programming. In fact, going in and thinking that just because you can write a hobby game front to back yourself is far less interesting to employers than being able to demonstrate an interest in a specific area.

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"Old man yells at systemd"
Re:Not me but friends by Sir+Holo · 2013-08-17 16:18 · Score: 1

...Take the job, and apply at Blizzard. If Blizzard accepts, be a douche and jump ship...
THIS!

Part of management training in many organizations is to ensure that no employee is irreplaceable. Redundancy, even in the workforce, is one of their key focus areas. That is –– you are expendable.

OK, not everywhere, but at many places yes. Treat your employer with the same respect they give you, and to your colleagues.
Re:Not me but friends by yu.alvinray · 2013-08-20 14:38 · Score: 1

One worked directly for a big company and even though he could make opengl dance they had him working on what was basically build scripting.
I can relate to your friend that has proven his technical capability but was assigned to a mundane task. Was he still tasked to do some opengl stuff? Thanks.

He needs experience by Therad · 2013-08-17 05:47 · Score: 1

He will need experience if he wants to go to one of the high-profile studios. So he should take the job, and work hard so he gets a good resume.

Re:He needs experience by tepples · 2013-08-17 10:43 · Score: 1

He will need experience if he wants to go to one of the high-profile studios.
I'm building a career plan. What's a good way to get such experience? Will, for example, a low-profile studio pay someone enough to afford relocation?

First rule of working by kschendel · 2013-08-17 05:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's really simple:
If you have a job, you can get a job.
If you don't have a job, getting a job is harder.

"Promised" is an elusive word, but assuming that the $70K offer comes thru, why not take it unless he has a gaming company offer in hand? which I assume he doesn't. It's always a good thing to be able to afford housing and food while looking for the job of one's choice.

Besides, he might be surprised, and like the promised job. (Or, it might be a small step above a Siberian work camp. One never really knows about these things until one tries it; but of course the same goes for the "dream" job at a gaming company!)

Re:First rule of working by tlhIngan · 2013-08-17 18:55 · Score: 1

"Promised" is an elusive word, but assuming that the $70K offer comes thru, why not take it unless he has a gaming company offer in hand? which I assume he doesn't. It's always a good thing to be able to afford housing and food while looking for the job of one's choice.
Besides, he might be surprised, and like the promised job. (Or, it might be a small step above a Siberian work camp. One never really knows about these things until one tries it; but of course the same goes for the "dream" job at a gaming company!)
Exactly. Take the job in hand first. Just because you have a job doesn't mean you can't apply for other jobs.
And there's always a chance the "boring" job is fascinating, or if not, gaming is really accessible these days. On your off time, one can always program for iOS or Android and make their own games.
Even a "dream job" at a "dream studio" like Blizzard or Valve may not turn out that way. There will always be a need for dull and boring crap work, and there's always a good chance a person starting out will be put in such a job.
Go the other path, and if you build up a portfolio, there's also a greater chance of getting a better job at the same place - the gaming industry knows people want to "make games" and exploits the fact. They know those people will burn out in 5 years, so they can replace them. And as such, they work them to the bone and give them the crap jobs. However, if you show you have a reasonably good portfolio, you can graduate above the morass into a much more interesting job designing the games and such. Because those studios also know that you've got a steady job and can do indie stuff on the side, so they can't mistreat you anymore.

he should pursue by csumpi · 2013-08-17 05:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

the path that makes him happy.

Re:he should pursue by Nutria · 2013-08-17 06:10 · Score: 1

Unless that path is surfing, living with your parents and getting Food Stamps.

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Re:he should pursue by sinij · 2013-08-17 06:54 · Score: 2

>>> he should pursue the path that makes him happy.

I find this highly inapplicable advice. Very few people enjoy work, just ask yourself and co-workers as to who still would come to work if they won a lottery.

Assuming he is a normal human being, he won't enjoy work. The best he can hope is fulfilling career with adequate compensation. You can trade increase in fulfillment for decrease of compensation, but "happy" is definitely out of the question. Happy is what happens outside of work. If all you do is work, then your opportunities to be happy drastically decrease.
Re:he should pursue by i.r.id10t · 2013-08-17 07:03 · Score: 2

If you dread going to work every day with no bright points, you really do need a different job or different employer.
For example, I have to deal with whiney instructors who don't follow directions, who check out completely 3 months of the year (and are proud of it), and who ignore emails or manage the work related messages they have after returning from 3 months off by saying "there were too many so I just deleted them all".
But, I also get to play in our teaching zoo, work on setting up webcams, experiment with the way a planetarium projects, influence lab exercises and projects the programming and networking students do, and teach Linux as an adjunct. Without all of this, the job really would suck.... but there is enough balance for me to enjoy it for the most part.

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Re:he should pursue by seebs · 2013-08-17 08:16 · Score: 1

I might do different work if I had Infinite Money, but there are things I work on for $DAYJOB now that I would likely continue to work on if I had free time and no other obligations.

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Re:he should pursue by jawtheshark · 2013-08-17 09:49 · Score: 1

If you dread going to work every day with no bright points, you really do need a different job or different employer.
Nice theory, but no... Most people need to pay the bills and that's why you go to work. Pay your bills, make the time you haven't got to work as comfortable as possible. Oh, and that's for the people who are well off... For those less lucky, they go to work to pay the bills, then go to their second job to pay the ends-of-months and then, if they're lucky not to have a third job, be happy to can crash and sleep.

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Re:he should pursue by i.r.id10t · 2013-08-17 12:28 · Score: 1

Still stand by my comment...
Lets look at the guy who mops the bathrooms at mcdonalds
Option one is to work at location A with manager A who is a real A hole. "Clock out for your bathroom breaks" or "I told you to do this 3 seconds ago why are you still here filling your water cup" or similar.
Same job, same pay, store B across town with manager B who simply says "You've been doing this for more than a week, you know the routine, you know what I expect of you I can pretty much leave you alone to do your job". Job still sucks, but it sucks less than at store A.
So... different job, different employer, etc. if you *really* dread going to work.

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Re:he should pursue by MysteriousPreacher · 2013-08-17 12:55 · Score: 1

Same here. If I came in to a lot of money I'd probably go back to college to brush up on a few things, but I'd definitely want to stay in my line of work.

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Re:he should pursue by khchung · 2013-08-17 14:14 · Score: 1

the path that makes him happy.
The path that makes him happy for a year, or the path the makes him happy for the next decade but not so happy next year?

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Oliver.

It's high pressure and high risk by Drewdad · 2013-08-17 05:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

Based on the experiences of some colleagues, I've avoided getting involved with gaming companies. First, there's tremendous pressure any time a new release goes out. Developers, admins, etc. are all expected to be available around the clock (with many choosing to sleep at the office) for weeks. Second, game popularity is very fickle. Working on a game that loses popularity? Pink slip. Some people view game studios as sexy and edgy, which is fine. Young, single people can afford to take risks that people with families and mortgages just can't afford.

Re:It's high pressure and high risk by Immerman · 2013-08-17 06:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

>Young, single people can afford to take risks that people with families and mortgages just can't afford.
Indeed. If his dream is truly to work for a game company and he can get an acceptable offer out of college perhaps he should take it. It may go well or badly, but he may never again have as much freedom to chase a dream for the hell of it as he has now. Better to chase it and be disappointed by what he discovers than spend his life dreaming about what might have been.
On the other hand if he doesn't have a gaming offer in hand I'd start chasing the offer now, and go for the electronics job if he can't make any headway there. I imagine even gaming companies prefer candidates with a proven work history. Just not so much of one that they demand a reasonable compensation package.

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Re:It's high pressure and high risk by mikael · 2013-08-17 11:51 · Score: 1

Best to take interviews at many companies, not just game companies and ask to see where people will be working. Just for working space alone, there's a whole variety of floor-plans for desks. I've seen some places where everyone just got 80cm width of desk space and were sitting side by side on benches. Other place gave everyone a desk, but it's open plan face-to-face side-by-side for the whole open plan office area with no windows for a hundred people. Slightly better is, everyone gets a desk alongside a window, facing back to back or front to front. Or if you are extremely lucky, you get your own cubicle or office.
Any software house that write software to comply with industry standards is going to have crunch time as they come up to milestones and deadlines.

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Take the decent job for a few years by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 05:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

Having left Blizzard in the last year I can say that it was once a really awesome place to be! Just not any more sadly. The politics have stunted too many people's ability to get things done. On top of that revenue is down so the idea of "low base pay with more from profit sharing" doesn't make up for how overly stressful things are. That said, working somewhere where the other "perks" of the Blizzard Culture aren't apparent will make working for a game studio a bit better; just have a decent savings account first and be ready to work twice as much for half the pay you used to get. From my friends that decided to say in the industry many are going to indie developers or starting their own small game companies so they can get back to what they really wanted to do in the first place: make games! On my end I've just created a bit of a "gamer culture" on the engineering teams I've started since I left to get the best of both worlds. My suggestion would really be to take the decent paying job for a few years while making some indie games on the side to make sure that they really want to make games for a living.

It's Simple, Really. by FSWKU · 2013-08-17 06:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

Does he have a piece of paper in his hand from this mythical company that clearly states they are offering him a job and what the compensation will be? Does he have one from Blizzard? The correct choice is whichever of these two he can say "yes" to.

If your friend doesn't have this dubious "$70k as a college graduate" offer/promise on paper, signed, and in his possession , then such a position doesn't exist. Period. If he believes otherwise, he's gonna have a bad time.

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Re:It's Simple, Really. by fermion · 2013-08-17 06:19 · Score: 1

I was listening to the radio last night and they reported the top job desired by children is that of reality star. I see this in a number of high school and college graduates as well. They want to be a star working at a star company. For jobs that do not really create anything, CEO, lawyer, doctor, that is OK. But for an engineer, who should be innovating everyday things that makes our lives better, that should be making the world safer, it does. Of course a game developer is likely more like a lawyer than an engineer, but still. I would say find somewhere you can make a difference, not somewhere you can be a star. It is not a bad thing to know that you went into work and did something meaningful. Of course that could happen a Blizzard. But if someone is offerring you a job at a firm where what you do matters, and you are getting well compensated, I think that is a good thing.

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Re:It's Simple, Really. by julesh · 2013-08-17 07:54 · Score: 1

I was listening to the radio last night and they reported the top job desired by children is that of reality star. I see this in a number of high school and college graduates as well. They want to be a star working at a star company. For jobs that do not really create anything, CEO, lawyer, doctor, that is OK. But for an engineer, who should be innovating everyday things that makes our lives better, that should be making the world safer, it does. Of course a game developer is likely more like a lawyer than an engineer, but still. I would say find somewhere you can make a difference, not somewhere you can be a star. It is not a bad thing to know that you went into work and did something meaningful. Of course that could happen a Blizzard. But if someone is offerring you a job at a firm where what you do matters, and you are getting well compensated, I think that is a good thing.
I think working on a project that would likely make millions of people happy (even if only for a few hours each) is pretty damned meaningful. Sure, entertainment isn't life-or-death, but it's got to be more rewarding than, say, accountancy.

let him make his own mistakes by Njovich · 2013-08-17 06:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

The guy isn't exactly wanting to go into drugs or some such. Nothing good will come from trying to interfere with him. If he never starts at the game industry he will always keep some romantic vision of how it would be.

Going into game dev can be a tough choice, but if that's what he wants to do there isn't much you can do about it.

Let him work it out himself if it is for him, he will find out the reality soon enough after starting there. Also, if he can get 70k offers now, I'm sure he will be okay after a year at a gamestudio finding a new job too.

Re:I'm not buying it... by pjt33 · 2013-08-17 06:23 · Score: 2

Even better than that is the incongruence of

I've read enough on here and on other tech websites to know... If your experience is contrary to mine, I'd appreciate that input as well.

Is OP only interested in hearing from people who've read that working in the games industry can be fun, or does he actually want to hear from people who've done it?

(For what it's worth, I spent five years working in the games industry, and the two years at Jagex was the best job I've had. I'm no longer in games, but it still winds me up when people think that everywhere is as bad as EA).

Re:take the job by Grumpinuts · 2013-08-17 06:23 · Score: 1

Not according to Morrissey....and Heaven knows he's miserable now.

Clock is ticking by faffod · 2013-08-17 06:23 · Score: 1

The average game developer leaves the industry after 5 years. The reason is that as much fun as it is to play a game at the end of the day, you are never able to play your game until it is complete and by then you are exhausted and burned out and the last thing you want to do is play your game. Of all the games that I have shipped I have never played one of them after they shipped.This is a hard industry and it is not for everyone (most)

The next consideration is that just because you qualified for a job offer outside of the game industry doesn't mean that you'll get an offer in the game industry. Do you have any demos that show that you can make a video game. I can promise you that I won't look twice at a college applicant that doesn't have his own project. It doesn't have to be big, it has to show polish. It can not be a class project, it has to be something that shows me what you can do and are passionate about. If you are not passionate enough to be making games on your own you won't survive the first year.

So if you have an offer, but are considering going into games, the clock is ticking to get an offer from a game developer. If you can't get one before your current offer expires, then take the current offer. If you still have a dream of making games, keep working on your demo (i.e. continue learning) and apply for jobs. It is always easier to find a job when you have a job already.

be wary by alx · 2013-08-17 06:26 · Score: 5, Interesting

I had an offer from Bioware that I ended up passing on because I had another offer from another company to do full time iOS development which is what I really wanted to do. A friend of mine ended up taking the same job at Bioware that I had been offered. I left a year later. His experiences can best be summed up in a single line from a chat he and I had one time -- "they cancelled Christmas" ... he had been working 80hr weeks for almost a year by that point. I felt like I dodged a bullet.

If writing games is your passion, and you can't live without it, and you don't mind doing it ALL the time, then that is the only time I would say it's okay to work for a games company. If you do, try to find an indy shop that works a sustainable pace. The other downside is that the people working there were very grouchy and mean. Not a happy place.

Re:be wary by turbidostato · 2013-08-17 08:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

"If writing games is your passion"
Ask him first how many games has he already written.
If the answer is "nil", then his passion is not writing games. He only thinks so, probably over the wrong information and for the wrong reasons.

Re:just before I saw the draft by Grumpinuts · 2013-08-17 06:27 · Score: 1

I take it the job doesn't involve online proofreading, then.

Avoid the large ones by Nemyst · 2013-08-17 06:30 · Score: 1

From what I've gleaned (I'm also interested in game development), you'd be best to avoid the very large developers like EA, Activision, Blizzard, etc. They tend to consider their manpower as resources to be exploited and discarded if they stop working properly. The hours are horrible and the salaries don't match up. Instead, try finding small or mid-sized studios; the pay might not be the highest around, but the atmosphere and challenges will usually be a lot better. With smaller devs especially, you get to touch a bit of everything and you're closer to "owning" the project. The hardest part is finding such a studio in your area and getting in, since they usually have very little extra money to go by. It's also a riskier proposition since you can get laid off if even just one project doesn't go well because the developer's fate is hanging in the balance of every new game they make.

Then there's a few really rare developers such as Valve which seem to have kept the ethos of smaller developers while sitting on such an absurd pile of money they aren't rushed. Blizzard probably used to be like that but I think the Activision merger caused the corporate to take over. Good luck getting in such studios as a first job though!

Reality Check... by icebeing · 2013-08-17 06:32 · Score: 2

I'd say your friend is quite fortunate to be wanted straight out of college, but here's the thing: the electronics company only PROMISED him a job when he graduates. As the old adage goes: promises are made to be broken...and in the tech world, so are verbal agreements and temp jobs.

SHOULD the electronics company follow through, he should still take the job, and find satisfaction in getting whatever real-world experience he can get out of it!
I had this idealistic dream of working for Blizzard, EA, etc..and you know what I discovered after I went through the endless programming challenges and interviews with them? Some things:

1) Game companies want MIT-level knowledge, but pay out retarded salaries for the talent, and work the talent to death...all for the glory of being THAT guy that worked on a AAA title

2) For each big game title on a store shelf at Fry's, I see 20 more titles collecting dust

You know what I say to that? BIG WHOOP!

A lot of game technologies are also used in many set-top-boxes, cinema, scientific programming, TV..and (some of) these companies PAY!
Games are interesting pieces of software, but I would rather work on the underlying technologies that make a game come together.

Now, for those game technologists that say I can't hack it, I'd be happy to show you my Linked in profile...I've worked at some NICE companies too, doing similar stuff. I'm allowed to my opinion too ;-)

Now, in the general tech world, job-hunting is almost as competitive as in game world. One really needs to be on top of their programming game with certain companies, and you even have to have some charisma too while interviewing.

Now, if your friend's job lead fizzles with the electronics company, then I'd say he should really pursue Blizzard and follow his dreams. However, dream jobs are still...jobs. He should really think about building up his professional programming experience, and work in the sub-domain he loves.

He'll eventually get there, if he gives it time and determination.

Good luck to him!

Re:just before I saw the draft by Oligonicella · 2013-08-17 06:40 · Score: 1

Lemme guess... You program in Perl, right?

Your friend is making a huge mistake by sinij · 2013-08-17 06:43 · Score: 1

First, 70$ out of college is unbelievably good. I am willing to bet that some people here don't make that much.

Second, Blizzard, or any other gaming studio will be very high-demand low-reward position. Your friend will be knowingly taking less pay for more work.Plus his work at gaming studio won't translate well into broader IT field, a lot of gaming technologies are not used elsewhere. (e.g. programming gaming engine will not help him get a job at CISCO or Google)

Don't try to stop your friend, but make sure he is making an educated decision.

11 year veteran by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 06:48 · Score: 5, Informative

11 year veteran here - I've worked in a number of roles at an independent studio (as a programmer), and my advice to anyone wanting to make games is this: it's hard bloody work, which doesn't pay that much, and you'd be better off working on your own games in your own time. Very rarely do you get to work on games that you are interested in, the last project I was on was a Disney game with a MASSIVE budget. It was hell on earth and I got pretty down about my job - to the point where I considered quitting without having secured another job first. On the plus side - I have gained experience in working with large, complex code bases, and worked under tight deadlines with hardly any budget. I've accepted a programming job outside of games, and I'm counting down the days until I leave.

Re:11 year veteran by sinij · 2013-08-17 07:05 · Score: 1

Mod up so others can see this AC post.

not enough info by Osgeld · 2013-08-17 06:48 · Score: 1

70 grand? 70 grand in LA or New York isnt shit, 70 grand in Atlanta is a good living, where is this magical electronics company?

Whats the job position? programming a microwave timer may suck, programming the UI to the new BMW might be cool, or whatever

Why Blizzard? They do not generate enough projects to keep every wishful nerd with a BS in the world employed "just cause they like starcraft"

Why are you so worried to convince him when you obviously do not have all the info? Worry about screwing up your own life.

Re:not enough info by Ambient+Sheep · 2013-08-21 07:34 · Score: 1

programming a microwave timer may suck, programming the UI to the new BMW might be cool, or whatever
You might be surprised. By and large, I had far more fun programming point-of-sale systems for petrol stations (US: gas stations) then I did the far more glamorous world of TV digital effects systems. Once you got over the initial eye-popping "oooh wow" factor, it was a sheer grind most of the time. The analogy with "being a prostitute is fun because sex is fun" that someone made up there is spot-on.

promised a job is not an offer by Joe_Dragon · 2013-08-17 06:51 · Score: 1

promised a job is not an offer and they can say stuff like we where banking on a big deal to happen and it did not so we can't hire you. Upper management is moving a different way and we don't need people with your skills, ECT.

I'm making those mistakes right now, myself. by E-Sabbath · 2013-08-17 06:52 · Score: 3, Interesting

Well, I'm sort of in the same situation. Except that in my case, my friends and I decided to start our own company. We're building a MMO. No publishers.

We're not just out of college, we're veterans in a number of fields, and this is my point.
Education is transferable. If you know how to code, you can start in a good job, and move over later. Or, even better, do your own game. If it was art, I'd say, join a studio. But for coding? Sadly, you're replaceable. But you can replace them as well.

If you've got a good offer, go for it, but don't kill yourself. Go for the job, spend a year or two, and if you don't like it, move on, then come back as a more experienced person, and get back in higher in the food chain. Just out of college is a great time to try out something risky, that looks great on the resume.

But don't let them abuse you. Work hard, work well, but you are not a chew toy. The one thing most people right out of college miss, though, is that every project has to be finished and polished to be done. The stuff you do for class is under too tight a deadline to actually finish, you just get it working. This stuff, follow through on. Ask your boss about what I mean, if you get the job - knowing to ask that question can mark you as someone with a future.

I've had some good education from the following books:

Making Fun is a book about how a game is put together, the various jobs that exist and how they relate.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007RV3UTS/ref=oh_d__o08_details_o08__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Interactive Entertainment is a book about the life cycle of a game, and the various fields of gaming that exist.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041T4HG4/ref=oh_d__o07_details_o07__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Level Up! is a book on game design. Once you know about what a game is, and how it's put together, this is pretty handy to dig style with.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046REX10/ref=oh_d__o02_details_o02__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They're all a little generic, but they're also solid starting points.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0046REX10/ref=oh_d__o02_details_o02__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

(For those curious about my personal project, it's a spiritual successor to City of Heroes. The MAN shut it down. Well, we can make our own game! With blackjack! And... forget the blackjack. With superheroes! And costumes! And all kinds of awesome stuff. And the best part is that in the ten years since CoH launched, the industry's come a long way - we can do all kinds of crazy stuff now.)
( www.missingworldsmedia.com if you're interested. )

Re:I'm making those mistakes right now, myself. by julesh · 2013-08-17 08:03 · Score: 1

Except that in my case, my friends and I decided to start our own company. We're building a MMO.
Everyone's building an MMO. It seems to be the default I-want-to-make-this-kind-of-game genre (just like building an OS is the default for big software engineering projects -- just look how many hobbyist OSs there are out there!). Perhaps you shouldn't let this discourage you, but still worth thinking about.
If we're onto book recommendations, there are a couple more:
A Theory of Fun, Raph Koster. If you read his blog, it turns out there's a new edition due out soon, so may be worth waiting for it, but this is the seminal title on what it is that makes games fun.
Designing Virtual Worlds, Richard Bartle. Bartle co-developed the first MUD, which of course was the inspiration that eventually led to the development of the first MMOs, so this book is actually pretty indispensible for an MMO developer, I reckon. Goes into a lot of nitty-gritty about how a typical MMO actually works.
Re:I'm making those mistakes right now, myself. by downix · 2013-08-17 08:23 · Score: 1

In all fairness, it is being developed as an MMO to replace a shut-down MMO.

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Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
Re:I'm making those mistakes right now, myself. by E-Sabbath · 2013-08-17 17:04 · Score: 1

I love Raph... but mostly I love to disagree with him. About so very much. That being said, his statements existing to disagree with are absolutely essential. If that makes sense. I love reading his work.
I'm working on a MMO - but this guy might not be. What I was posting about was basic level books on the field in general. I hope they prove helpful to him.

It's About Culture by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 07:07 · Score: 2, Informative

As someone who recently start working for a game studio that is profitable, incredibly player-focussed and protects its culture with both hands, I just want to say that genuinely good opportunities do still exist in the gaming industry - though it would be disingenuous to pretend that they're the norm.

However, more fundamentally, forget gaming or any other domain for a second and demand that the people you work with embody and project as much of the following as possible...

integrity
compassion
kindness
a determination to cross the finish-line together
enthusiasm for the work
intelligence and the ability to use it constructively
an expectation of open feedback in all directions
an effortless affection (or fondness if you don't like 'affection') for those around them
charity of spirit (never starting with the assumption that 'the other guy' is an asshole when things go wrong)

These are a few of my favourite things :-) and looking for them wherever I go has had an extremely positive effect on my quality of life and the quality of life for those in my care (both professionally and personally).

Does he have a job offer in the gaming industry? by Shoten · 2013-08-17 07:14 · Score: 1

This situation kind of reminds me of the character played by Randy Quaid in "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation," where his wife explains that he's been out of work for close to a decade because "he's holding out for a position in upper management."

But on the other hand, why is it your job to tell him what to do with his career? It's his life, let him live it for better and for worse. Any mistake he's intent on making is his to learn from, and most great successes looked like suicide missions to other people at the outset.

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For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.

Use reason.... by joocemann · 2013-08-17 07:16 · Score: 3, Informative

... take the bird in the hand (the job offered).... then work at the company making money and gaining reputable XP while trying to apply to blizzard and get in there....

Nobody is going to think less of you for working in your field. If anything, the xp will only help validate your friends' skillset and give more power to the application to blizzard.

Also, who the hell considers turning down a job offer in this economy? I had to win a grant to get my job.

Re:Stop Interfering by TemperedAlchemist · 2013-08-17 07:27 · Score: 2

A gaming job wouldn't necessarily suck, not if it were at Bethesda or something. At Blizzard it would suck.

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I say keep striving for what you want.

Entry level is HARD by evilviper · 2013-08-17 07:38 · Score: 1

"I have a friend who, when he gets out of college, has been promised a job at well known electronics company with a salary around $70k. However, he wants to instead go work for Blizzard or some other game company as a game programmer."

This is NOT an "either-or" situation. He's not going to die in two years, he's not committed to the job offer for life, and a gaming company isn't going to see electronics work on his resume and blacklist him.

Entry-level is HARD, and a college degree is worth very little without some job experience to back it up. Some jobs, like "manager" are assumed to transfer from one industry to another pretty easily, so aiming low might work out better in the long-term.

Developing a small pile of cash quickly is worthwhile. You have a LOT more freedom to do what you want when you have several thousand dollars in the bank, and can afford to pay your bills for a year if other positions don't work out. Or you may find you suddenly need a pile of cash to quickly relocate for the next available job.

Money can't buy happiness, but I've never seen people with a solid savings nearly as unhappy as those with lots of debt hanging over their head, and suffering through a job that makes them miserable because one missed paycheck is going to destroy their house of cards.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Re:Entry level is HARD by GoodNewsJimDotCom · 2013-08-17 09:26 · Score: 1

Yup, entry level is HARD to get into. I've been trying to get any job to start my career for close to a decade. I even graduated from Carnegie Mellon, and my hobbies are playing video games and programming. I'm doing the Indie scene now since I have no choice of getting an actual job. I code extremely well, but I have a very difficult time getting interviews. I chalk it up to graduating at the dot com bust when they only hired people with experience, and then having not getting any experience, no one ever was interested in me. I'm a 90-120k+ yr quality software engineer, and I'd be willing to work for 35k/yr since my family isn't rich, but I can't find anyone in the world to give me the time of day. I've only had 7 interviews in the past 10 years, but sent out about 5000 resumes and had about 250 recruiters looking for positions for me.

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God spoke to me
Re:Entry level is HARD by evilviper · 2013-08-17 10:41 · Score: 1

I chalk it up to graduating at the dot com bust when they only hired people with experience, and then having not getting any experience, no one ever was interested in me. I'm a 90-120k+ yr quality software engineer, and I'd be willing to work for 35k/yr since my family isn't rich, but I can't find anyone in the world to give me the time of day.
That timing makes it harder, but that's a low enough salary requirement that you should be able to get in, somewhere.

I've only had 7 interviews in the past 10 years, but sent out about 5000 resumes and had about 250 recruiters looking for positions for me.
Less than 1 interview per year is quite bad. Either your in a terrible location (high-tech jobs dramatically pool in a few cities around the US), or you need to put a LOT of work into your resume. You can go find sample resumes out there, and if yours doesn't fit the standard format, you won't get anywhere with recruiters. To show some job experience, sign-up for some poorly-paying contract gigs from some place like donanza.com, and cultivate a bare minimum of 2-3 gushing references. And you can always be a bit more vague with your resume if it sounds better.
But... what happened with those 7 interviews? An interview is a good sign of serious interest, so after maybe 3 you should be able to get a job. Are your personality/interview skills really terrible? Do you have a criminal record? Do you have no good career-relevant professional references?
All things you can work on at home, by investing a decent bit of time, and saving yourself YEARS. I hate the tedious nature of that stuff too, but you've got to at least minimally get it down to fit into the workplace anywhere, no matter how much experience you've got.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Entry level is HARD by evilviper · 2013-08-17 10:54 · Score: 1

BTW, noticing your .sig I think I should mention that pretty much all discussion of politics and religion is off-limits in interviews, resumes, and mostly verboten even in the office once you are hired. Those are the two big hot-buttons you want to stay away from. Work life and personal life are best kept separate, anyhow.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Entry level is HARD by GoodNewsJimDotCom · 2013-08-17 11:52 · Score: 1

Thank you. My online life sort of blends like most people. I realized one thing on my resume linked directly to something.

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God spoke to me
Re:Entry level is HARD by GoodNewsJimDotCom · 2013-08-17 11:54 · Score: 1

Thank you for your advice. I like that people give me advice. The Internet is a helpful place.

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God spoke to me

Re:I'm not buying it... by CheshireDragon · 2013-08-17 07:52 · Score: 1

I have a friend who, when he gets out of college, has been promised a job at well known electronics company with a salary around $70k.

[citation needed] Sorry, I don't buy the "my friend is being offered $70k/year straight out of college, but wants to work for Blizzard instead" line. I'm gonna call bullshit on this one.

Imma have to agree with you on this too. I have never heard of anyone making that 'right out of college'. Maybe within a few years if you're good at that thing you do, hit a great idea or are one of the rare prodigies.
However, if this is true, I'd say, 'take the 70k job, work a few yrs to get some experience and then move on to follow your dreams.' That's what I did. Not with programming though.

--
"That's right...I said it."

Re:Stop Interfering by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 08:39 · Score: 1

But still... £45K straight out of college? That is one amazing wage! In the UK you'd have to do another two years at University, get a good degree and then be lucky to get that on your very first job.

Re:I'm not buying it... by Captain+Segfault · 2013-08-17 08:56 · Score: 1

The starting salary for a new college grad software engineer at the big tech companies in the SF Bay area is well over $70K.

I think people are a greater issue here... by bloggerhater · 2013-08-17 09:01 · Score: 1

There is one detail everyone is glossing over.

Your first IT job is nothing but a cornerstone for your career. If you find yourself in one position for one year...two years...three years...you are doing it wrong. Most companies have no good reason to give big raises to their engineers without promotion into a "new position." With how volatile the world markets have been over the last decade, it has become even more difficult to grow within a single organization.

The secret to being successful in IT is to continue growing your skillset and never stay in one place to long. Contracting shorter one off projects is a great place for a fresh grad to start because you can quickly fill your resume. This is very easy to do if you were wise enough to contribute to any ((open source!!)) projects while working through high school and college. Especially in states like Colorado that are preparing to open their public insurance market places in the coming weeks.

Once you have the resume to do consulting full time, you just cant beat it. Digital nomad. It's the life!

Re:I think people are a greater issue here... by tippen · 2013-08-18 01:30 · Score: 1

If you aren't interested in being a contractor, flitting around between jobs constantly is a big warning sign for hiring managers. Why weren't they able to stay in one place very long? Personality issues? Inability to produce? Bored quickly? Jumping at first higher bid?
It's expensive for the business to get someone ramped up only to have them leave after 12-18 months. It doesn't mean I wouldn't hire them, but it would be one more non-trivial hurdle to clear before I'd make an offer.
Probably worth pointing out that I'm coming at this from product development. YMMV for IT jobs or web apps or other types of jobs.
And, if what you want to do is contracting, then this doesn't really matter in the least.
Re:I think people are a greater issue here... by bloggerhater · 2013-08-24 13:21 · Score: 1

You seem to have completely missed my main point. The problem is that the industry has less and less to offer a highly skilled engineer for dedicating years of service. We are less inclined to even apply for the positions you mention. There is a serious lack of any chance of vertical mobility for engineers who would rather stay in one place. Regardless of the current fiscal ecosystem, IT and CS engineering positions are still an employees market. In the expanding digital economy you will never have enough good people.
If things like "bored quickly" are part of your hiring criteria, you may have a very difficult time hiring true talent. Do you know what kind of people apply for the positions you mention? Certainly not the free thinkers and risk takers. Some of us desire more than "job security." Much more. I suppose if you run a fish bowl with just one kind of fish, such as a military contractor, you're fine. If you desire to be the next start up snatched up by the likes of Google, Facebook, Yahoo, AOL, etc... I say good luck to you.
Coupling that with the fact that many of us have taken on a "Digital Nomad" life style that complements our curiosity... Well let's just say Marissa Mayer isn't doing the industry any favors. Don't expect us to conform to you when our skills are so highly coveted.

Sony by jtara · 2013-08-17 09:01 · Score: 1

Sony is a big electronics company AND a gaming company, so perhaps your friend can have his cake and eat it too. (Or perhaps it's a lie...)

I spent a couple years at Sony San Diego Studio as a contractor, albiet not as a "game programmer". Two contracts doing Ruby/Rails backend stuff, first working on internal software that manages configuring back-end servers and deploying them, and then working on back-end admin and console services. The latter was definately much more fun, since it was working in the same space as the game developers. (Sony produces most/all of their sports-related games at their San Diego Studio. I worked on back-end stuff for MLB The Show and Mod Nation Racers.)

It's a typical big-company tech environment. They pay standard competitive rates to contractors, and I gather the employees are well-paid and get good benefits. It is definately seasonal, with cruch-time around the holidays, unfortunately, but then the place is nearly desserted in the summer as people use comp time then. Everyone seemed generally happy. It feels like any other well-funded, non-venture San Diego tech company. Laid-back, even looser than normal dress code, really not excessive pressure. (Though one particular night rolling-out the Mod Nation Racers beta just before Christmas got some nerves on edge, as it was their first major deployment on Amazon, and didn't spin-up enough servers for demand. Well, and Rails... So, it was a night of emergency surgery to see what could be taken out to improved throughput and response. A couple of normally-unflappable co-workers got pretty frazzled.)

Dunno about the game development teams, but both groups I worked in were big on Scrum. The good thing is the meetings are only 10 minutes. The bad thing is, you have to get in by the daily meeting time. (Which was conveniently scheduled for the sleep-ins, though, so really not that bad.) (Best Scrum moment - a co-worker passing out from locking his knees while standing. Of course, they had to call EMS as a precaution, and I'm sure it was embarrasing. My boss smoothed it over by remarking that he did the same thing at his wedding! The irony is that the passer-out was a big fitness nut, and won some competition at the complex gym, so I suppose even more embarassing...) At the same time, there were the weekly, typical corporate-style meetings where you all fall asleep around a big conference table and somebody wakes you up when it's your turn. But at least these are kept to a minimum.

If Sony is an option, I'd highly recommend it.

how long... by jameshofo · 2013-08-17 09:10 · Score: 1

will you continue to be friends if he hates it, you duty as a grind is to dispense advice (if requested or appropriate). and empower the decisions he does make, it is NOT your duty to make sure he makes the decision you like.

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Good leaders run toward problems, bad leaders hide from them.

Re:I'm not buying it... by khellendros1984 · 2013-08-17 09:43 · Score: 1

I'm in Blizzard's back yard (working for a different company, though). As a software engineer with a CS bachelor's, I was hired straight out of college at over $70k. I'm no crazy prodigy; I just ran into a company that hadn't hired new grads in a long time, and I guess they had unrealistically generous pay expectations. So, I know that it's not impossible. Looking at my friends and the jobs they landed in though, it's also nowhere near common to start off at that kind of pay. Honestly, I was expecting to start around 55-60k, in my area.

--
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Re:I'm not buying it... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 10:02 · Score: 1

I guess they had unrealistically generous pay expectations.

No they didn't. They're not fools. They know exactly what they can get away with.
If anything they'll try to lowball but I've never seen an employer offer you more than they should.

During negotiations I once had a company tell me they were thinking of a base salary between x and y. X was way way higher than what I was making at the time and I thought that those guys were crazy. Still, against my first instinct, I told them that if they offered me y, I'd accept on the spot. They didn't even blink. Truth is, I could probably have talked my way into a salary higher than y.

The mistake too many young software engineers make is underestimating their worth. You are in high demand. It is very difficult to find qualified people. And by "qualified" I don't mean "people who have a degree" because truth be told, many people who graduate still can't program their way out of a paper bag.

Re:Stop Interfering by Sesostris+III · 2013-08-17 10:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe you should let your friend do what the hell they want and stop being such a busybody? You're not his mom. Maybe the electronics job would suck, maybe the gaming job would suck, you're not in a position to judge.

He's a friend. Do you have friends? Do you care about your friends? Do your friends care about you? If you saw a friend making what you think might be a mistake, wouldn't you perhaps talk to them. If your friends saw you making what to them might be a mistake, wouldn't you want them to talk to you?

Of course, if all you have is acquaintances, then, hey, you're not their mom, what do you care if they make a mistake. (and hey, they're not your mom, what do they care about you if you make a mistake).

Personally, I can understand where the Original Poster is coming from. He's a friend to his friend. It's what friends do.

--
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake

Go for it by mattyj · 2013-08-17 10:45 · Score: 1

I worked for the parent of a major studio that recently got purchased by a much larger media company and was shut down, and I was also eventually shown the door. Broke my heart but it was a good run while it lasted.

Your friend is likely young enough to be pretty resilient as far as job prospects go, so he owes it to himself to follow his passion first, then worry about having a steady gig when he's in his mid-30's.

Yes, a lot of studios are sweatshops, etc., etc., but you (ahem, 'he') might find his niche in just the right spot and be the happiest guy in the world. Otherwise, he has a corporate job and will always be wondering what he missed.

Plus, you tend to learn a lot more, and learn it a lot quicker, when you're in the middle of a disaster. The highs are high, the lows are low, but on some level it's always a fun ride.

Looking to the future, if you lose your job because a studio folded, it's easier to get another job. If you leave a job because you're bored, it makes it look like something is wrong with you, you're not a team player, etc. I highly suggest that he not take the job he has on the table if he plans on looking for other jobs and leaving. If he then leaves (or gets asked to leave) the second job, it looks bad. At his age he's gotta grab the balls of that bull and hold on for dear life. Taking the safe route, career-wise, can wait.

Re:Stop Interfering by KeithJM · 2013-08-17 10:49 · Score: 2

In the US, people refer to university and college are interchangeable terms. Normally, when we say "straight out of college" we mean graduating with a bachelor's degree.

Re:I'm not buying it... by Your.Master · 2013-08-17 10:49 · Score: 1

6 years ago I was right out of school with an undergraduate degree. My starting salary was almost 80k for a software development job, and it wasn't even at one of the high cost-of-living areas. Not a cheap area either, but certainly not Silicon Valley or New York. People start with around 90k there now, partly because of inflation but mostly because of across-the-board raises to keep ahead of the market.

I might understand the bullshit call if that was claimed to be an average starting salary, but it's not a wildly unusual starting salary.

Re:I'm not buying it... by the_B0fh · 2013-08-17 11:15 · Score: 1

what area is this? Just a general area would be helpful.

Re:Stop Interfering by Darinbob · 2013-08-17 11:23 · Score: 2

Most gaming jobs seem to suck though. Bigger companies would suck in different ways than smaller companies though. Ie, you're poor because the big company is stingy with payroll, versus you're poor because the tiny company has no revenue, and at either place you will be on a forced death march because it is always crunch time. New grads are basically cheap labor who don't have the experience necessary to switch to less exploitive jobs. On the other hand, it beats being an IT jockey doing user help desk.

If someone likes making games then this can be done as after hours as a hobby; write open source, create mods, etc.

Let him follow his dream by greggman · 2013-08-17 11:25 · Score: 1

Take the game job. Follow his dream. My experience in games is pretty great. I've heard horror stories but I've not personally experienced them that much. Blizzard is supposed to be great place to work so if he can get into Blizzard he should definitely go for it. I've even worked what I would consider massively under paid by I'm still happy for the experience.

I programmed games for ~25 years. The last 5 I did something else (worked at a big IT company). I hated the last 5 years. Hated is a little strong. I had some great experiences but I never really felt into what I was doing like I did when working on games.

Re:Stop Interfering by mikael · 2013-08-17 11:36 · Score: 1

You'd get that if you went to one of the traditional universities (Russell Group) and did an Honours or Masters by research in a subject like computation finance or fluid dynamics. But be careful of what the job description is - that £45K in the UK might be for a senior engineer, team leader or an architect, so you'll spend more of your time attending meetings, writing specifications, pair programming or extreme programming.

--
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads

a good friend by globaljustin · 2013-08-17 11:55 · Score: 1

If your friends saw you making what to them might be a mistake, wouldn't you want them to talk to you?

right?

OP must be trolling but at the same time, I can kind of envision a kind of person who would make a comment like his and mean it genuinely.

for those without good friends: this is what friends do! it is kind of defining characteristic...people that care enough about you to do something you might not like, risking angering you, because they feel so strongly you are making a mistake

it saddens me that such a comment as that from OP - 'butt out!' could plausibly be non-trollface. I have met people in my professional life who I can imagine possibly being so disconnected as to think this way...and in a way it hurts our whole industry.

being disconnect from others causes us to make abstract and difficult to use interfaces and methods....further enforcing the tech/non-tech divide and wasting huge ammounts of resources

--
Thank you Dave Raggett

Re:a good friend by garett_spencley · 2013-08-17 12:14 · Score: 1

I see both sides.
If I witness a good friend who I think is about to walk off of a cliff (metaphorically or literally) then I usually say something, but it has to be pretty serious because otherwise I don't think it is my place. I'm sure the person posting the question to /. does think this is serious, as he is worried his friend is turning down a lot of money and an excellent opportunity for something that won't pan out. Yet at the same time, if this person wants to go work for a game studio that kind of implies "that is my dream" to me. And the type of friend who would discourage someone's dream is the antithesis of someone I would want to a call a "friend."
That's the question that needs to be answered. If the programmer / student wants to work for a game studio because he thinks the game industry is growing and it's his best bet at securing a solid financial future there is no harm in presenting facts to the contrary. But if, on the other hand, he is akin to a musician who dreams of becoming a rock star and is perfectly content pumping gas and sleeping on couches trying to carve out a career and has no ambitions of getting married, starting a family and having a comfortable middle class retirement then it is a very big asshole move to step into the role of father and say "No don't do that because there's no money in it." He's probably already had to put up with enough of that bullshit from his parents already. What he needs from his friends is support in that case.
Re:a good friend by Sesostris+III · 2013-08-17 18:20 · Score: 1

I too see both sides. To be fair, so does the poster of the question (when he asks for contrary experiences).

One of my personal rules is never to tread on the dreams of people I know. To take your example, some people who dream of being rock stars do indeed become rock stars. Then again, if I had a friend who couldn't sing, couldn't play the guitar (or any other instrument) and had no musical ability, then I might suggest them trying an alternative career (you know, in the short term, while they manage to get a band together, etc.!)

What we don't know in this case if the "strength" of the dream, and the likelihood of achieving it. What did the questioner's friend do in college? How is this related to games programming? How many programmers do Blizzard take on each year? What did they do in college? Has the questioner's friend done any games programming before? And so on.

The only observation I'll make is that there are college courses specifically for computer games programming (I've a nephew doing one). If the questioner's friend is doing one of these, then it's almost a no-brainer; try with Blizzard. However, if he isn't, guess who he'll be competing with for any job!

--
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
Re:a good friend by dlingman · 2013-08-18 05:03 · Score: 1

One of my personal rules is never to tread on the dreams of people I know. To take your example, some people who dream of being rock stars do indeed become rock stars. Then again, if I had a friend who couldn't sing, couldn't play the guitar (or any other instrument) and had no musical ability, then I might suggest them trying an alternative career (you know, in the short term, while they manage to get a band together, etc.!)
Well, someone has to be the drummer...
Re:a good friend by globaljustin · 2013-08-18 08:28 · Score: 2

I've been keeping up on the discussion and I guess I'll have to now put myself in the "see both sides" camp as well...
See, I came from a small farming town in the midwest, and I had friends who, while trying to be a 'good friend' actually held me back intellectually...their advice sometimes narrowed my horizons...
However, in my life (and I suspect but can't prove that it'll be true for everyone) that the net effect of my friend's advice has been decidedly positive.
See, I also had a friend back home who gave me the "Good Will Hunting" speech...like when Ben Affleck's construction worker tells Damon's character, "If you're still around here in 10 years, fuck you...get out and do something..."
So...yes...some friends are better than others, but we learn to weight their advice accordingly...

--
Thank you Dave Raggett

Console qualifications by tepples · 2013-08-17 12:16 · Score: 1

it's hard bloody work, which doesn't pay that much, and you'd be better off working on your own games in your own time.

But how does working on one's own games in one's own time produce verifiable "game industry experience" that one can show to a publisher or a console maker?

Re:Console qualifications by Anonymous Coward · 2013-08-17 12:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Write a web game, post it online.
Contribute to an open source game, be able to point to the github repo or list of contributors or whatever.
When I was interviewing people for a gaming studio, we had people do both, and they both looked very good on the resume -- they show both your technical skills, and your passion for gaming. You are clearly excited enough about this to go do it in your spare time, which means a lot!
Re:Console qualifications by canth2002 · 2013-08-17 17:48 · Score: 1

It provides fulfillment. If his friend wants that from making games, he/she is very likely not to get it from an EA/ATIV type of company...

Re: Stop Interfering by O('_')O_Bush · 2013-08-17 12:50 · Score: 1

I went to a normal state university and got that right out with a 4 year degree. Friends of mine going to Apple or Microsoft (several of them) started with salaries ranging from 80k (entry level debugging type work at MS) to 105k (project manager at MS).

All of them got at least 70k.

--
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);

It depends ... by Qbertino · 2013-08-17 13:05 · Score: 1

Experiences depend on various things:
1) How well is the company doing?
2a) What products are their business model?
2b) If they're building a new product, do they have the cashn/ provide the cash to finance a prototype and the time it takes to develop a good product?
3) How good is the team / teamlead / project manager / internal pipeline / development method?

I've worked as a dev and later on as a Scrum Master for a gaming company on a product/prototype team. It was plain awesome. The lead was very good at taking the blame and sharing the credit and we had a lot of freedom and enough budget to build a proper team (devs, gamedesigners, artists, etc.). Then I switched departments after the product was cancelled - which is a normal thing btw., markets change all the time. The dept lead in the new department was a douche, there was infighting between my new teamlead and the head of dept. just as I came on board, the internal tool/product was crap, the tech used wasn't wanted throughout the company, etc. ... It sucked. I left 9 months later because of that.

So, as you see: It depends. If your friend get's a job with Blizzard, by all means, he should take it. With Blizzards track record of turning everthing they build into gold he'd be stupid not to. Blizzard is the Apple of the gaming world, I doubt a crappy team / dead-end crew exists for longer than a few weeks at Blizzard before getting torn to bits and reassembled into something usefull. But he should be prepared. A company like Blizzard has their pipeline designed right down to the color of the paperclip that comes with the weekly progress report. He'll learn professional software development alright, but I doubt many companies are as thorough as Blizzard - he'll have to move on to Lockheed Software Group or the folks that build software for nuclear power plants or something if a job change is not supposed to become a serious downshift.

Ever since my gamedev gig I've been working with web agencies. It's like moving from fine cuisine to McDonalds. Not a nice thing.

My 2 cents.

--
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca

Re:Stop Interfering by Javaman59 · 2013-08-17 13:25 · Score: 1

He's a friend. Do you have friends? Do you care about your friends? Do your friends care about you? If you saw a friend making what you think might be a mistake, wouldn't you perhaps talk to them. If your friends saw you making what to them might be a mistake, wouldn't you want them to talk to you? Personally, I can understand where the Original Poster is coming from. He's a friend to his friend. It's what friends do.

When someone is taking their first job out of college I think that they should be given lots of advice from those with more real world experience. The first job often sets up the whole of your career. If you start in banking, you will probably stay in banking. Ditto for defence. Once you have two years experience in any industry it will be very hard to change to another industry. It's not impossible of course, but it may involve a period of unemployment and a pay cut. But, if you have dependants by then (which often happens in ones twenties) then you are locked in.

For the advice to be useful it should be based on fact, and the adviser should be careful of overemphasising their own emotions. It should also be open ended, eg. saying "The games industry often has some notorious sweatshops, but that is not universal", rather then "Don't work in the games industry!".

Perhaps the one bit of advice which must be emphasised to new graduates is that the first job is a very significant choice which they may not be able to easily change - so choose wisely.

Now, I am talking from personal experience here. When I was about to graduate someone gave me exactly this advice - the job I take now will probably be the one I have for the next twenty years. I rushed into it, and took an exciting looking job in the defence business. I quickly hated it, but I was already locked in, and had dependants. The defence business wasn't nearly as exciting as the it seemed, but it took me twenty years to get out of it, and a massive pay cut.

--
I'm a software visionary. I don't code.

Re:Stop Interfering by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2013-08-17 14:16 · Score: 1

This. Game development is something you should get involved with only if you can't imagine yourself doing anything else. It's almost more of a calling than a profession. Not something anyone should be pushed into.

Curt Schilling by RockinRoller · 2013-08-17 14:45 · Score: 1

Ask people who worked at Curt Schilling's 38 Studios...not pretty.

Speaking for a friend of mine in the industry by TheLongshot · 2013-08-17 14:51 · Score: 1

First off, if he has a job offer in hand from the first company, then he should take it no matter what his ultimate desire. Once you have a job, it is easier to start looking for the perfect job.

I have a friend of mine who desire has been to work in the game industry. First he worked at a board game company and now he works for a high profile video game company. From what I know about what he's doing, he's not making as much money as he'd like and he's not doing ideally what he'd like to be doing. Also the commute is long and the hours are long. At the same time, he really enjoys what he does, which is ultimately what is important.

I think, tho, the key to him is that a lot of what he does is built on what has come before in his previous work experience. I have a feeling those who come straight out of school wouldn't have as good of a time with someone who has gotten some experience in the field in general. It is good to get a feel of how projects are run in the real world and figure out for yourself what works and what doesn't. That kind of experience will help you anywhere. Build up some experience heading in that direction, then peruse your dream.

Get the day job. by Macchendra · 2013-08-17 15:16 · Score: 2

And make your own software on the side. Don't do games, though, unless they're butt simple and sell like hotcakes. You have magical powers. Know this --> You can create a product that can be reproduced for no cost. Go for the largest number of customers and where you stand a chance to compete in the current market.

8 Year Veteran by Lemming42 · 2013-08-17 15:33 · Score: 1

I've worked in the games industry at an independent company for 8 years (all at the same company).

Before that I worked at a startup on EJB apps (and many other odd jobs), and before that I worked at a small company writing and debugging embedded systems software and hardware. All the jobs had their benefits and drawbacks, but if you can find a good game developer to work for (as I feel I have) it's well worth it. Our games have been relatively successful, and profit sharing from those games has resulted in my average compensation to be almost double my salary. I've definitely worked long hours during my time, but when you're working on something you and others around you believe in (as has almost always been the case) it has a completely different feel than the 12-hours-a-day-7-days-a-week periods I was forced to work in my previous job.

The problems are hard, and solving them is fun. The people are incredibly smart, and they're the kind of people I'd want to hang out with outside of work.

You might get paid less than working at a consulting firm, but in my experience the atmosphere and problem space is much more interesting.

It's all console-based idiotshit by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2013-08-17 17:17 · Score: 1

It doesn't matter which game company he goes to work for -- they're all making MOBAs, DOTAs, or action RPGs (Diablo III clones).

--
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.

Such a loaded question by canth2002 · 2013-08-17 18:12 · Score: 1

I'd say it depends on the relationship between you and your "friend". If you're a parent, relative, etc, then IMO, stop hovering. Let your son/daughter/relation make their own mistakes. At the point of career, it won't hurt too much, wherever they end up. While I would say working for a large game company like Blizzard has its drawbacks, you cannot deny that working there wouldn't give some eye opening experience. However, if this friend is a lover/husband/wife, then the question I would ask you is whether you're planning on having children soon, and whether you mind having your spouse/lover/mate away working 60-80 hours. If the answer to either question is yes, then you really should rethink whether you want to be in a relationship with this person. And why do I say that? Because working at a big company in IT isn't that much different than a game company. Yes it can be more stable, but it doesn't have to be, and many of these companies are sweat shops. I'd not be surprised to see 50-60 hours at least, possibly more. If you can't handle that, then the problem will likely be you. Sure, game companies can be worse, but so can any other company. If you're just a friend, I'd tend to go with the parent/relation and let your friend make a mistake. I might say it will suck for you working at a game company, and you'll likely hate it. I may even go so far to grab the worst title I can find at BestBuy and say how'd you feel if you spent 18 months of your life making that. And if the friend wants evidence? Tell him/her to Google it.

Re:Stop Interfering by Sesostris+III · 2013-08-17 18:37 · Score: 1

Agreed, it may be difficult to change directions once employed, but it is possible (I once worked with someone who resigned a programming job because she'd just got a job with the police - something she'd always wanted to do. Someone else gave up a project management job to do a Radiography degree. And others I've known have resigned to travel the world for a year).

In this case, we don't know what the job is with the electronics company. Is is a programming job? If so, it may be easier to switch from industrial programming to games programming if the opportunity arose. If it isn't, then maybe not so easy.

I think the trick (looking at your post) is not to get "locked in". In this case I would possibly advise to take the job that is definitely there, but tread lightly until you get the job you want. Don't buy a house, don't get married, and don't have children, until it is certain that the games programming job isn't going to materialise. In other words, think of the job that is definitely there as an interim job until you get the one that you do want.

In the end, an interim job is better than no job at all (or flipping burgers).

--
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake

Games at game companies. by niftymitch · 2013-08-17 18:57 · Score: 1

Games are hard but fun.

Programming in a "company" is likely a lot less fun.
Personal temperament can make anything fun or anything dull and lacking in adjectives.

Big bucks from games is possible but so is winning the lottery.
There is still some VC money for game companies but less and less makes it into the hands of creative programmers.

Youth.... go for it, what ever it is.....
Wife and kids ... games maybe not but there are some great game companies.

--
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.

Game dev here by CyberBill · 2013-08-17 19:44 · Score: 2

I have worked at 3 game studios - Amaze Entertainment (now Griptonite), Sony Online Entertainment, and now Microsoft. I've worked on the PSP, PS3, PC, and Xbox One. I have worked on relatively short cycle year long games as the main programmer, I've written back end software for MMOs as a core-tech guy (mostly removed from the game) and as a part of the game team. I've worked on more MMO titles than most devs.

The closer you are to the game, the more hours you're going to work. SOE was particularly bad - I worked there for 6 years and only had a single real raise. The first two years was on a core tech team that was really awesome. My manager was super experienced, and we set time lines and expectations for raises, and he followed through. I learned a lot, and was making my way up. But then the team evaporated and I was put directly on a game team. I was promised bonuses that regularly fell through. "When we hit Alpha in June, you'll all get bonuses!" - Great! Oh... the game doesn't hit Alpha in June? Well, there goes June.. July... August... Game gets a facelift... Alpha the next year in June! Or July, or August. Get used to that. And promotions? Few and far between, and they always pull the "no promotions until we ship" card, which if you're working on a 6-year long dev cycle for an MMO doesn't make sense. I don't know of a single programmer who got a promotion while at SOE for the last 4 years when I was working there. At most places, if you're not directly on a team, you get a standard bonus at the end of the fiscal year - it's not huge, but it's pretty reliable. If you are on a game team, you get milestone bonuses instead, which get pushed around, and without fail they always claim that the parking lot will be filled with Ferrari's.

Management is usually bad. My last boss seemed bipolar about my performance. One month it was "Great! On track for a promotion at alpha!" to "We really expect you to put in 60 hours a week." When you're young and fresh into the industry, don't have a wife or kids, you can do 60 hours a week. But you're going to feel miserable doing it when you're trying to have a reasonable work/life balance, and with experience you'll realize that 60-hour weeks for a year is not sustainable. There was a month when I did 90+ hours every week to help a project ship on time - I didn't get a bonus, didn't get any time off, nothing, even though my manager for the project praised my work.

Of course, there is a reason I still work in games. The most passionate programmers are working in games. You get to do something you absolutely love, with really smart people, and make pretty good money doing it. At Microsoft I'm a bit more removed from the game team - which means I do my 40 and I go home. I think that you have to strive to find the balance that you want. I can't see myself ever trading my job for some boring programming position outside of games.

--
-Bill

let him experience the good and the bad by HappyDrgn · 2013-08-17 20:00 · Score: 1

Can you share with me your experiences so I can give him real life examples to convince him to take this job?

No. It's better to learn what type of job you enjoy on your own. If he is talented he will be fine; maybe he will hate it and quit, maybe he will like it, who knows. If he likes it you'll just end up looking like an asshole. The important thing is he will probably learn and move on. There are good and bad jobs across industries in technology, I've had my share of both and I would never trade those personal experiences for someone else's opinion. They've given me more insight and experience about the industry than anyone could summarize for me. They have become part of how I interview and look for new jobs.

Another Game Dev Here by GameDevMog · 2013-08-18 03:57 · Score: 1

I have worked at two major game studios, helped found a small indie studio, and currently work as a senior rendering engineer at an Autodesk subsidiary working on middleware.

I first started at EA Tiburon in 2005 as an entry-level software engineer working on Superman Returns. Retrospectively, it was the perfect project on which to cut my teeth, as the experiences I had helped me to shed my youthful idealism pretty quickly about how the industry actually works. I got to see it be brought up from the very beginning. We crunched for 3-4 months on an 'X05 convention demo that didn't even end up being shown publicly, then we decided that we were using the wrong libraries and started re-writing that portion of the engine. Our designers were all fairly new and had that classic "kid in a candy store" mentality towards features. I still remember when Chris Gray, the executive producer on the project, known for such blockbuster titles as "Fiendish Freddy's Big Top O' Fun", insisted that the engineers help the designers implement an altitude meter for Superman. Why? Because it would be cool! Designer, artist and engineer time was wasted implementing this feature, and sure enough in the next round of focus testing, people didn't get it at all, and he just had it taken right back out. This very process was repeated over and over again as we crunched almost endlessly: The tool with which designers were supposed to make levels, Zod, wasn't ready until well into the alpha stretch. It was five days before we were originally slated to go to manufacturing (May 10th) and there was about *one* finished level. The writing was on the wall, we were going to have to slip the release date, but that didn't stop the managers from effectively forcing us to work 60+ hour weeks under the illusion that somehow everything was just going to fall into place.

After Superman Returns shipped (six months late), they stuck me on their internal Flash UI team, "ION", writing ActionScript - never mind the fact that I am first and foremost a C++ engineer and had never coded a lick of ActionScript in my life. ION was a popular scapegoat for the main game teams, as it was chronically understaffed, and while there may have been five other reasons for why a given deadline was missed by the game team, they would primarily blame us. I eventually worked on NCAA '08 and Tiger Woods PGA Tour '08 before jumping ship in late 2007 to go work for Vicarious Visions.

At the time I was an enormous Guitar Hero fan, to the extent that I had even written my own 2D clone of it based on data I had managed to rip out of the game before anyone else had. Apparently this was what piqued interest at VV, as at the time they were working on Guitar Hero 3 for the Wii. I ended up getting the job, and got to work on nearly every Wii version of Guitar Hero. Aerosmith, World Tour, 5, Band Hero, Warriors of Rock. That was also another lovely experience, because it made me realize just how little a monolithic publisher actually cares about a given game itself. Guitar Hero 3 hit massively at the proverbial box office, so what's the most sensible thing to do? Make a new version every three months, of course! Never mind the fact that those of us rank-and-file employees who actually cared about the franchise were basically screaming to anyone who would listen what a horrible idea it was. We were all so very relieved when it was communicate to us in a meeting that ATVI recognized that the peripheral market was saturated, and then so very not surprised when three months before release, white plastic die-shots of the all new peripheral arrived and we were told to add support. After the release of Warriors of Rock, those of us at Vicarious Visions were slated to work on all three SKUs of the next Guitar Hero, but the plug was pulled in early February 2011, also known as The Great Guitar Hero Layoff. ATVI cut about 500 jobs company-wide, with about 50 of those jobs (a third of the staff) being cut at Vicarious Visions, myself included.

My 8 years experience. so far so good by yerex · 2013-08-18 04:45 · Score: 1

I've been a programmer at Bioware Edmonton for 8 years. I love my job and always have.

I have not experienced crunch on any scale that would make me discourage anyone from joining the industry (maybe a couple weeks at a time a couple times a year). It is well known at this point that extended crunch reduces productivity to the point of being useless.

One thing I would highly recommend against in any position is putting in extra hours to complete your work faster, appear more productive, and move up the promotion ladder faster. That is a great way to burn yourself out.

Typically, It's too late. by Alien54 · 2013-08-18 05:25 · Score: 1

A lot of the time, by the time you hear that ABC place is the really cool place to be, the people who made it a really cool place to be have moved on to other locations, having been replaced by other people who have all these other ideas as to how a shop should run (which do not involve being cool), and now that really cool place to be is now "meh, not so much" similar to investing is stocks, by the time the mass market gets in on it you may be on the wrong side of the curve.

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"

Re:Stop Interfering by iMadeGhostzilla · 2013-08-18 05:29 · Score: 1

Well he said "I know that he should take the job." Should -- in order to what? Be happy according to the OP's view of the world? IMO, he can say "if you take the job, so and so is likely to happen; if you go into gaming, so and so is likely to happen." That is all. The choice of one or the other (or something else) is only his friend's to make.

Really?! by 0311 · 2013-08-18 09:18 · Score: 1

I know I am late to this thread and not having spent the time to read all the replies I am sure I'm simply repeating what others have probably posted. Even so! I must have my say!! Anyway, if the friend takes your advice and regrets it, it is YOUR fault. It isn't really, as he would have made the decision and should be responsible for it, but that is simply how human nature works. The friend should follow their heart. Yeah, it's probably a grind. Yeah, working for Blizzard may seem to some to be the worst thing ever. But maybe your friend is up for that kind of abuse and will actually thrive on it. I threw an entire career in IT out for a chance, just a chance mind you, to get in to medical school...and it worked! Now I work 80+ hours and will for many years. But I am very, very happy doing what I am doing. People who took the easy and secure route have no idea what I am talking about. I have no retirement and will barely make enough to retire because I am entering the field much later than my colleagues. And there is plenty of abuse at work. But I survived my intern year and things can only get better. Probably its like that as an intern game programmer. Things will only get better. But if it doesn't work out, chances are that if he got a 70k offer right out of school, he'll probably do even better in a year with 80+ hour weeks under his belt, willing and able to do more that he could've just out of school. So don't discourage your friend. Sure, tell him what it's like, then say, "but you know what, if anybody can do it, you can." It is cheesy, sure, but it is true - good, friendly support and encouragement goes a long, long way.

Re:Stop Interfering by Javaman59 · 2013-08-18 14:22 · Score: 1

Agreed, it may be difficult to change directions once employed, but it is possible (I once worked with someone who resigned a programming job because she'd just got a job with the police - something she'd always wanted to do. Someone else gave up a project management job to do a Radiography degree. And others I've known have resigned to travel the world for a year).

Agreed, it is possible to change career direction - particularly if you are strongly motivated for the new career, and have savings and/or other backup.

I think the trick is not to get "locked in". In this case I would possibly advise to take the job that is definitely there, but tread lightly until you get the job you want. Don't buy a house, don't get married, and don't have children, until it is certain that the games programming job isn't going to materialise.

I really liked this observation! Indeed, when you are young and independent is the best time to take a risk with your career. While it is never easy to change direction, it is certainly easier now than it is once you are financially locked in. After that, it'll be twenty years - if you are lucky!

In the end, an interim job is better than no job at all (or flipping burgers).

That seems to be the unanimous advice here.

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Does your friend like job security? by intermodal · 2013-08-19 03:13 · Score: 1

If so, video games might not be the industry for him.

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Bird in the hand worth two in the bush by TheSkepticalOptimist · 2013-08-28 06:12 · Score: 1

The gaming job is not guaranteed, the electronics one is.

If you are a good friend your ONLY advice is to take the electronics job now and then apply for the games job. Telling him to turn down a promised job and shoot for his dreams will only mean you will probably have your friend sleeping on your couch because he is jobless and broke.

Not sure of many gaming companies that are going to hire someone straight out of college unless he has a pretty damn good portfolio of his own independent gaming projects to showcase. Even if they do hire right away then all he is going to get is a menial junior level Q/A position or such and may not even touch a line of code for years. Probably not going to get 70k doing it either.

Instead he could work on his own side projects and get some real experience programming for another company and then apply as a much more attractive hire in a few years and skip the menial BS.

I mean, if he applies for and gets a real dev position then there is nothing wrong with dropping the electronics job and going for a gaming job, even if the timeline is like 3 months. But I think it will be a lot longer and far less likely to land that dream game job right away.

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